Re: Apple TV 4th generation woes

[Les Kriegler]

Hi again, Andrew,I have another suggestion for you. I believe Mystic access may have done a tutorial while a while back on using the Apple TV. I think they also covered it using the remote. So you may wish to check that out. Good luck.Les.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 6, 2024, at 12:07 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:Andrew, while I use the remote on occasion, when I have to use it, I find the best way to use Apple TV is with a Bluetooth keyboard. I really think that’s your best bet. If you have a Bluetooth keyboard around, you might try and parrot and see if you can use it that way. I think he’ll have a much better experience.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 6, 2024, at 8:36 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Sincere thanks to everyone who responded.  I shall examine all of this carefully.On 6 Apr 2024, at 10:23, SBR Gmail <sreeb...@gmail.com> wrote:Hello, we did a presentation on this. Hope it helps. https://youtu.be/Njb7ZPLH5y8?si=ifyu1olBXih4NRyPSreeOn Apr 5, 2024, at 8:40 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Hello,I’ve upgraded my Apple tv from 3rd to 4th generation.  I’ve tried really hard to understand how to work it with the remote provided.  I am distraught to say that I’m just not udnerstanding understanding how it works.  Is there a tutorial from Voiceover user perspective that might help you how to make use of its features without throwing it out of the window?Any suggestions would be welcomeSimon -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9BD24AA5-207F-4AAE-ACAE-CFA79BB72CF9%40me.com.

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Re: Apple TV 4th generation woes

[Les Kriegler]

Andrew, while I use the remote on occasion, when I have to use it, I find the best way to use Apple TV is with a Bluetooth keyboard. I really think that’s your best bet. If you have a Bluetooth keyboard around, you might try and parrot and see if you can use it that way. I think he’ll have a much better experience.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 6, 2024, at 8:36 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Sincere thanks to everyone who responded.  I shall examine all of this carefully.On 6 Apr 2024, at 10:23, SBR Gmail  wrote:Hello, we did a presentation on this. Hope it helps. https://youtu.be/Njb7ZPLH5y8?si=ifyu1olBXih4NRyPSreeOn Apr 5, 2024, at 8:40 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Hello,I’ve upgraded my Apple tv from 3rd to 4th generation.  I’ve tried really hard to understand how to work it with the remote provided.  I am distraught to say that I’m just not udnerstanding understanding how it works.  Is there a tutorial from Voiceover user perspective that might help you how to make use of its features without throwing it out of the window?Any suggestions would be welcomeSimon -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9BD24AA5-207F-4AAE-ACAE-CFA79BB72CF9%40me.com.

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RE: My review after spending two weeks with the Activator braille display

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,
Thanks for the comprehensive and excellent review of the Activator. It does 
sound interesting; the high price will keep me away for now.
Best,

Les

-Original Message-
From: 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries  
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2024 10:15 PM
To: via MacVisionaries 
Subject: My review after spending two weeks with the Activator braille display

Hi all,

I have just spent the last two weeks demoing the Activator braille display, and 
I thought I’d send my review in case anyone is interested.

There is a lot to love about this display.  Unfortunately, there were also some 
things not to love.

The form factor is amazingly streamline, especially given all that it contains. 
 It is slightly bigger than the braille displays most of us are used to, but in 
large part, that is because the back portion contains the folding qwerty 
keyboard.  On the right side is the magnetic strip, used for connecting the 
smart dock.  On the left, farthest from you, is the USB port for connecting it 
to a computer.  In front of that, closer to you, is the on/off switch.  A long 
press of this button turns the unit on and off, while a short press cycles it 
between menu, Smartdock, and USB modes.  On either end of the top of the device 
are three buttons.  The top and bottom buttons are up/down buttons, while the 
right middle button is Enter, and the left middle button is back.  These 
buttons are all small, so the middle buttons—Enter and Back—are identified with 
a raised line.  Starting in the front of the unit, are the concave braille 
cells, as you would expect.  Behind those is the Perkins keyboard.  The one 
unique thing about this is that there are actually three space bars, two below 
the braille keys, and one in between the two groups of four.  And behind that 
is the qwerty keyboard.  All you have to do to use the qwerty keyboard is fold 
it back.  One of many nice touches HelpTech added is that on the back of the 
qwerty keyboard there are little feet on each side, with a small rubber strip 
on the bottom that you can pull out to help keep the device stable,  They 
recommend that you not use the qwerty keyboard in your lap, but I did with no 
problems.  You just have to put the feet down, and position your legs so that 
they support the device.  A lap desk would accomplish the same thing.  The 
qwerty keyboard was comfortable to use, but you do have to stretch to reach it, 
sort of like you do on the Mac, except it’s a slightly bigger stretch.  The 
newer units are going to be shipping with a quieter keyboard, so at this time I 
can’t say anything about what it is like to type on, as that will not be the 
same for anyone who purchases a device moving forward.

The concave braille cells, in conjunction with the ATC (Active Tactile Control) 
make reading very comfortable.  In my experience the ATC technology works quite 
well, though it worked best when I read with one hand rather than two.

It also worked very well as a display when paired with my Mac and my PC.  I 
tested with JAWS on my PC, and on the Mac with Voiceover.  There is no need to 
install drivers in either use case, you simply plug it in and it is detected.  
You can, of course, also pair it via bluetooth, with PC, Mac, or phone.  It 
also works as external storage on the Mac, which was a great bonus.  (The one 
problem connecting it to the Mac as external storage is that the Mac will dump 
a bunch of junk files on the Activator.  That results in a No Disk Room error, 
so you have to delete the junk files and reboot the unit in order to use it 
after transferring files.  Kind of a pain, but you can transfer files that way, 
if you don’t mind the cleanup.)  It did not work for me as external storage on 
Windows, more on that later.

Now for the best part, the interface with the iPhone.  It is AMAZING!  You 
slide the phone into the dock, connect the dock via the magnetic strip, and 
it’s like you have one device that is essentially an iPhone with braille and 
the keyboard of your choice.  You can access all your apps and files, and you 
can move files back and forth from the Phone to the Activator.  There’s also a 
shortcut on the Activator that you can use to access the apps you use most 
often.  It really is very slick.  The only drawback, and this won’t be a 
problem for everyone, is that in this configuration, it isn’t very portable.  
The magnetic strip can’t support the dock and phone all by itself, so you have 
to have it on a table or in your lap.  You could pick the whole thing up and 
move it, you’d just need to make sure to support the dock while you did.

For those of you in the US, the Helptech dealer here is Dream Vision, and they 
are *fabulous to work with.  The owner, Damian Pickering was great.  Their tech 
support is provided by Mike Tindall, who many of you may remember from the old 
days of Freedom Scientific or HIMS.  He was extremely generous with his time 
and support, even though I was only demoing the 

Re: dropbox

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad,Thanks very much for the link for the dropbox installer. I’m always notified that dropbox is ready to be installed but I was never able to actually find the installer file. So this is very helpful. Thanks again.Best,Les.Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 15, 2023, at 4:07 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:Have you installed the Dropbox client on your Mac?If not, use the following link to download the client to your Downloads folder, and install.https://www.dropbox.com/downloadingAfter installing the client, you will have a Dropbox alias in your homefolder, and a Dropbox item in your Status Menu (Menu Extras).
- Brad -


On Dec 15, 2023, at 16:58, Lorie McCloud  wrote:I can’t find dropbox in Status menus on my Mac in ventura. I thought I had connected it on the dropbox site but apparently I haven’t. what do I do?thanks.Lorie-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/B4A24A2B-C7D9-488E-8EB1-4C05FDC89148%40gmail.com.



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Re: Query re setting up a new Macbook Air from scratch using Voiceover?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Eleanor,

Well, there are a lot of experts on this list, who will be able to provide you 
with lots of information. I will answer one question. To start voiceover when 
you turn on your Mac, hold down your command, key and type F5. The command key 
should be The first key to the left or right of your spacebar. That will at 
least get voiceover up and talking. Have fun with your new Mac. I’m sure you 
will enjoy it. It’s a very fast machine and works very well. 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:19 PM, 'Eleanor Roberts' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Really hoping you guys can help me here with your collective 
> expertese/experience. I have a new 2022 Macbook Air arriving tomorrow, which 
> I’m very excited about, as I’ve been waiting and saving a long time for it. 
> However, as it’s being delivered to my home it means that I’ve got to try to 
> set it up myself from scratch using Voiceover.
> 
> I’ve never done this myself before, so I’m really hoping that someone can 
> reply to this message with some truly idiot-proof/step-by-step instructions 
> that I can follow to set it up without making any catastrophic 
> mistakes/crashing the machine before I’ve even got going!! I mean, for a 
> start, how on earth do you even get Voiceover to come on when you first turn 
> on the Mac so that you can set it all up?
> 
> As you can see, I really do have no idea what I’m doing with this one. So any 
> help/guidance anyone can give from the point of view of someone with no sight 
> doing this really would be very much appreciated and most gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks so much for any responses.
> 
> Eleanor
> 
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Re: Siri no longer plays a sound when activated with the side button on my iPhone

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

Well, this is getting rather interesting. After I announce that I was receiving 
sounds, I stopped getting them. Now I receive haptic feedback when I press the 
side button and the sound upon completion of my dictation. I can live with 
this. I just don’t know why it seems to change, and as you indicated, it’s 
different for some and that others. Well, now I threw another wrinkle into it. 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2023, at 5:30 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> It can be. However I do not receive haptic feedback when Siri is activated.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2023, at 4:23 PM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>    Isn't that what haptic is for?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> "Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much."
>> -Helen Keller
>> My e-Mail:
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>>> On 10/25/2023 2:16 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> Actually, I beg to differ with Brad and ET.  My understanding is that there 
>>> is a visual cue that Siri has been activated, I think it’s some kind of 
>>> swirling color thing.  I don’t see well enough to confirm that, but if that 
>>> is true, then it absolutely is an accessibility issue, because there is 
>>> feedback that sighted users receive that we don’t.
>>> Best,
>>> Donna
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2023, at 8:40 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It still doesn’t make sense that we’re not all experiencing the same 
>>>> thing.  Some of us get the Siri sound, many of us don’t, you apparently 
>>>> get a haptic, I don’t, and so on.  I still say write to accessibility.  If 
>>>> that is the way Siri now works, it was a dumb change.  (No offense.) 
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2023, at 8:36 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> From my understanding, it is not a bug. It is the new way Siri works.
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2023, at 08:27, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Weird!  This is feeling more and more like a bug, given that we’re not 
>>>>> all experiencing the same thing.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2023, at 8:13 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:20 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sadly, Brad is absolutely correct.  I find the lack of the Siri prompt 
>>>>>>> sound feedback somewhat maddening.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sad smile.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Brad Snyder
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2023 7:52 PM
>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Siri no longer plays a sound when activated with the side 
>>>>>>> button on my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Welcome to iOS 17.
>>>>>>> Siri no longer makes a sound.  You get a haptic instead.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2023, at 18:31, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Anyone know how to fix this?  I’ve looked everywhere in Settings, 
>>>>>>> Accessibility, VO, Siri, and I can’t find it.  And no, my phone is not 
>>>>>>> in silent mode.  iPhone 14 Pro running IOS 17.03.
>>>>>>> TIA,
>>>>>>> Donna
>>>>>>> 
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Re: Siri no longer plays a sound when activated with the side button on my iPhone

[Les Kriegler]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:20 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Sadly, Brad is absolutely correct.  I find the lack of the Siri prompt sound 
> feedback somewhat maddening.  
> 
> Sad smile.
> 
> Mark
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Brad Snyder
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2023 7:52 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Siri no longer plays a sound when activated with the side button 
> on my iPhone
> 
> Welcome to iOS 17.
> Siri no longer makes a sound.  You get a haptic instead.
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Oct 24, 2023, at 18:31, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Anyone know how to fix this?  I’ve looked everywhere in Settings, 
> Accessibility, VO, Siri, and I can’t find it.  And no, my phone is not in 
> silent mode.  iPhone 14 Pro running IOS 17.03.
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
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>  actually, when I press the side button, I am hearing the tone and I’m 
> running 17.0.3. I have no idea why I am receiving that.

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Logitech Keyboard and Apple TV 4th Generation

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,

I have been using a Logitech K380 with my Apple TV 4th Generation for about
two years. After going away for a couple weeks, when returning, that
keyboard no longer works. The arrows yield no response and the Return key
either does nothing or launches a different app that I am focused on. Since
my keyboard was out of warranty, I decided to purchase the K780 which I know
many use on this list. The same problems with unresponsive arrow keys are
present on that keyboard. On my iPhone, the return key does not activate an
app. Logitech says it is something Apple software modified. Is anybody
successfully using am Apple TV 4th Generation with either the K380 or K780?
If anyone can suggest another compatible keyboard, that would be
appreciated.

Best,

 

Les

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RE: How to enter passcode on Apple Watch using VoiceOver

[Les Kriegler]

I locate the bottom of the watch face and then swipe left and right to find the 
number desired. One finger double tap on the number has worked flawlessly for 
me.
Best,

Les

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2023 8:15 AM
To: 'Mervin Keck III' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: How to enter passcode on Apple Watch using VoiceOver

Hi!
I use to find the digit and hold my finger on it and tap with another finger on 
the watch.
That works for me.
/A

> 21 mars 2023 kl. 23:57 skrev Brad Snyder :
> 
> I have never had a problem entering my pass code on my Apple Watch using 
> voiceover.
> Only tricky thing is, when I select and then double tap on a digit, I do not 
> receive any voice feedback.
> This is not always been the case, but Apple changed it several versions of 
> watchOS ago.
> I find that if I go slow, and pay attention to what I'm doing, I am 
> successfully able to enter my pass code on the watch.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Mar 21, 2023, at 16:52, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> You’re correct, it can be finicky sometimes.
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2023, at 15:49, Paul Hopewell  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> How can I reliably enter my 4 digit passcode on my Apple Watch SE running 
>> the latest Watch OS while using VoiceOver on the watch? I thought that 
>> double tapping each digit would do the job but that often does not work.
>> I am aware that I can use my iPhone to unlock the watch but setting that up 
>> requires me to enter the passcode on the watch.
>> Many thanks for any advice … Paul Hopewell
>> 
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Re: Unmuting During a Zoom Meeting

[Les Kriegler]

OK, that sounds easy enough. Thank you very much.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 18, 2022, at 10:57 AM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> The record dialog is a default button so when it appears, just hit enter and 
> it’s gone. You can then Command Shift A to mute and unmute.
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2022, at 09:19, kriegle...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> When a meeting is being recorded on a Zoom meeting, how does one deal with 
>> that dialog? I have not been able to unmute and I think that is the reason. 
>> How  is this done on a Mac?
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 'Dan Eickmeier' via MacVisionaries  
>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:39 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Command in Monterrey to Eject an external disk?
>> 
>> Hi Donna, running Monterey on a 2020 Intel MacBook Air, as well as a 2018 
>> intel Mac mini, and command-e is still working fine to eject external 
>> volumes here.  
>> 
 On Oct 13, 2022, at 9:36 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I notice that in Monterrey CMD-E no longer works to eject an external disk 
>>> drive.  Anyone know if there’s a new command?  I tried CMD-Option-E but 
>>> that didn’t do it.
>>> TIA,
>>> Donna
>>> 
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Re: iPhone 14 VO issue

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I’m really glad it sorted so far for you. If the problem does return, which I 
hope it doesn’t, you might want to try what I suggested. Hopefully, that won’t 
be necessary. Take care.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2022, at 12:10 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Les,
> 
> Sorry for taking so long to respond.  It’s taken me a while to circle back to 
> this issue.  Happily, though, yesterday when I rebooted my phone, the Siri 4 
> voice came right up, so it seems that the problem has resolved itself.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Oct 13, 2022, at 10:05 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> 
>> Well, I just received my iPhone 14 Pro and I’m not experiencing this issue. 
>> The only thing I can think of to try is the following. When you turn 
>> voiceover off, shut down your phone. Then restart it. Once you are at your 
>> home screen, turn voiceover back on and see if it holes. It is a weird one, 
>> however. I cannot imagine why your default voice isn’t holding. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Oct 13, 2022, at 9:04 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Jason,
>>> 
>>> I did upgrade to 16.3.  And I’ve turned the phone off and back on several 
>>> times, but the problem persists.  It’s strange.  I don’t have this issue on 
>>> my 12 mini, though I haven’t upgraded it yet, it’s still running 16.02.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 12, 2022, at 8:00 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Did you perform the upgrade to iOS 16.0.3? I don’t know whether that will 
>>>> solve the problem, but it’s important to do nonetheless.
>>>> I haven’t encountered this problem, but I’m using a considerably older 
>>>> phone.
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 11, 2022, at 18:49, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yesterday I got my new iPhone 14 Pro.  So far I’m liking it.  But I’m 
>>>>> noticing one odd VO thing.  When I restart the phone, it comes up using 
>>>>> the Samantha voice, even though I have the Siri voice 4 as my default 
>>>>> voice.  If I turn VO off and back on, it uses my selected voice, but I’d 
>>>>> rather not have to turn VO off and on again whenever I need to restart 
>>>>> the phone.  Anyone else experienced this?  Anyone have any ideas for a 
>>>>> fix?
>>>>> TIA,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
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>&

Re: iPhone 14 VO issue

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

Well, I just received my iPhone 14 Pro and I’m not experiencing this issue. The 
only thing I can think of to try is the following. When you turn voiceover off, 
shut down your phone. Then restart it. Once you are at your home screen, turn 
voiceover back on and see if it holes. It is a weird one, however. I cannot 
imagine why your default voice isn’t holding. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 13, 2022, at 9:04 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jason,
> 
> I did upgrade to 16.3.  And I’ve turned the phone off and back on several 
> times, but the problem persists.  It’s strange.  I don’t have this issue on 
> my 12 mini, though I haven’t upgraded it yet, it’s still running 16.02.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2022, at 8:00 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Did you perform the upgrade to iOS 16.0.3? I don’t know whether that will 
>> solve the problem, but it’s important to do nonetheless.
>> I haven’t encountered this problem, but I’m using a considerably older phone.
>> 
 On Oct 11, 2022, at 18:49, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Yesterday I got my new iPhone 14 Pro.  So far I’m liking it.  But I’m 
>>> noticing one odd VO thing.  When I restart the phone, it comes up using the 
>>> Samantha voice, even though I have the Siri voice 4 as my default voice.  
>>> If I turn VO off and back on, it uses my selected voice, but I’d rather not 
>>> have to turn VO off and on again whenever I need to restart the phone.  
>>> Anyone else experienced this?  Anyone have any ideas for a fix?
>>> TIA,
>>> Donna
>>> 
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Re: Question for those of you upgrading to the iPhone 14

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I don’t like the three-year plan either. I have a few months left to pay off my 
iPhone 12 mini anyway. But we shall see. It will definitely be the 14 pro 
whenever I get my phone.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 10, 2022, at 2:10 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Les,
> 
> Yeah, I’m leaning that way.  And for those of you on Verizon, it looks like 
> they’re offering some pretty good deals if you are willing to take a 
> three-year contract.  I don’t really like that, but VZ is the best option 
> where I live, so I don’t really see a reason not to do it.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Sep 10, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> 
>> I also have the 12 mini and have not been happy with the battery life. I am 
>> definitely going to go for the pro. It’s essentially $100 more, and I think 
>> it’s worth it. of course, I am talking about the 14 pro.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Sep 10, 2022, at 9:35 AM, lenron brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> If I were going to upgrade it would have to be the pro. If I didn't I
>>> might as well get the 13 and save some money. I have decided to keep
>>> my 12 pro max and just change the battery at some point.
>>> 
>>>> On 9/10/22, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> Morning, all,
>>>> 
>>>> I have a 12 mini, and the battery life is starting to deteriorate, so I’ve
>>>> decided to take the plunge and upgrade to the iPhone 14.  I’m trying to
>>>> decide whether to go with the 14, or go big and get the Pro.  The main 
>>>> thing
>>>> that entices me about the Pro is the faster processor.  I’m curious what
>>>> others are doing.  So to those of you who plan to upgrade, are you going 
>>>> for
>>>> the 14 or the Pro?
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> Lenron Brown
>>> Main cell 985-714-8446
>>> Cell: 985-271-2832
>>> Skype: ron.brown762
>>> 
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Re: Question for those of you upgrading to the iPhone 14

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I also have the 12 mini and have not been happy with the battery life. I am 
definitely going to go for the pro. It’s essentially $100 more, and I think 
it’s worth it. of course, I am talking about the 14 pro.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 10, 2022, at 9:35 AM, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> If I were going to upgrade it would have to be the pro. If I didn't I
> might as well get the 13 and save some money. I have decided to keep
> my 12 pro max and just change the battery at some point.
> 
>> On 9/10/22, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>> Morning, all,
>> 
>> I have a 12 mini, and the battery life is starting to deteriorate, so I’ve
>> decided to take the plunge and upgrade to the iPhone 14.  I’m trying to
>> decide whether to go with the 14, or go big and get the Pro.  The main thing
>> that entices me about the Pro is the faster processor.  I’m curious what
>> others are doing.  So to those of you who plan to upgrade, are you going for
>> the 14 or the Pro?
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
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> Skype: ron.brown762
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Re: the dock, is likely a silly question about the mac desktop.

[Les Kriegler]

Well, you are very fortunate then. Because I don’t think that is typical. But I 
am glad to know that you were able to find a quiet environment in which to work.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> The voices are retrieved from VoiceOver Utility. I don't believe you need 
> VoiceOver running to do this.
> Here are the seps that a sighted person would do as best as I can tell.
> 
> Open the finder
> 2. In a finder window use the Go menu to switch to utilities 
> 3.  Open the program 
> 4. Click on speech in the category area 
> 5. Make sure Voices is selected. 
> 6. The first line here is your default voice with an edit button at the end 
> of the line.
> 7. If you click the the edit button at the end of the line you can not only 
> select the voice, but also adjust Tone, Intonation, Volume and speed.
> 8 Find the combo box for the voices and the last item in it is ""Customize…"
> 9. This will bring up a table of checkboxes and voice names (over 200 of them 
> ) 
> 10. Check / uncheck boxes for voices you are interested in and then close the 
> dialog.
> The downloads of voices does not start until this dialog box is closed.
> You can re-open the dialog to check the progress of downloads of voices. 
> The Mac will substitute what it thinks is a similar voice if the download for 
> your voice has not completed.
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 28, 2022, at 17:26, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> That is what an apple store is for.
>> My first priority to be honest is getting a solid enough voice.
>> The onboard tutorial is  helping, but again I am far more used to greater 
>> keyboard dexterity, meaning I will make mistakes while trying to learn 
>> voiceover itself.
>> Oh yet another question on that front.
>> does voiceover have to be on to  update the voices from compact to enhanced?
>> Tim explained how it is done, cannot seem to get back there, but that can be 
>> a task for one of my mac using homemates, if I can turn off vo I mean.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, 28 Jun 2022, E.T. wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Karen, I would strongly suggest you put your focus solely on mastering 
>>> Voiceover before venturing into other areas. Get a handle on the Voiceover 
>>> commands as well as those the the standard Mac commands.
>>> 
>>>  Find a local Voiceover user and invite him/her to come over and work with 
>>> you.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
>>> will make violent revolution inevitable."
>>> --John F. Kennedy
>>> My e-Mail:
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 6/28/2022 1:49 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
 Well...apparently I must have missed a detail.
 going to the dock does not let you type a program name at all.  It does
 put you  on a list, but as I am still finding  or configuring a solidly
 understandable voice, not all programs are well easy to follow.
 Again part of why I want to run text edit, typing practice that does not
 cause a problem.
 and on another note, there seem to be groups everywhere,
 Honestly I am working from the assumption that should I manage to launch
 text edit I would end up on a text field.
 I might add, that there is not a more fluid display layout...its quite
 frustrating when I cannot discover how to repeat what I just heard, and
 there is an identifier of a command I still cannot translate.
 
 
 
 On Mon, 27 Jun 2022, Herbie Allen wrote:
 >  It’s the first thing on your Doc. Hit enter, on Finder, and you’re >  
 > good to go.D
 > > >  On Jun 27, 2022, at 21:30, Karen Lewellen 
 > > >  > >  wrote:
 > > > >  and just to confirm, the command to open the finder?
 > > > > > > > >  On Mon, 27 Jun 2022, Herbie Allen wrote:
 > > > > >  VO D is the Doc, VO Shift D is the Desktop. A lot of default 
 > > > > > apps > > >  are in the Doc, but if not, Open the finder and do a 
 > > > > > Command shift > > >  A. This will bring up the apps folder. You 
 > > > > > can  also use  Siri to > > >  open apps.
 > > > > > > >  On Jun 26, 2022, at 22:18, Karen Lewellen > > > >  
 > > > > > > >  wrote:
 > > > > > > > >  I am not interested in running the terminal if voiceover 
 > > > > > > > > is not > > > >  100%  no idea how to even get there.
 > > > >  Are applications normally in the docs?
 > > > >  Something I read from  another voiceover source suggested that > 
 > > > > > > >  vo-d just takes you to the desktop.
 > > > >  Still want to  access voiceover help keys and the like, which do 
 > > > > > > > >  not seem to  be terminal associated.
 > > > >  Likewise pages could  serve the same typing practice goal.
 > > > > > > > >  All of my Linux Ubuntu shell work is via a service, 
 > > > > > > > > called > > > >  shellworld, using my non Linux screen 
 > > > > > > > > reader.
 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  On Sun, 26 

Re: the dock, is likely a silly question about the mac desktop.

[Les Kriegler]

In addition, unless things have changed, I think you would be very disappointed 
if you go to an Apple Store for training. It is a very noisy environment and 
even if you can find someone know something about voiceover, I don’t think 
you’re going to get the results you desire by going there.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 6:13 PM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
>    An Apple store visit is fine but there is nothing ;like working with a 
> Voiceover user who uses VO day in day out.
> 
>   If you have  sighted helper, yes you can turn VO off.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
> will make violent revolution inevitable."
> --John F. Kennedy
> My e-Mail:
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 6/28/2022 2:26 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> That is what an apple store is for.
>> My first priority to be honest is getting a solid enough voice.
>> The onboard tutorial is  helping, but again I am far more used to greater 
>> keyboard dexterity, meaning I will make mistakes while trying to learn 
>> voiceover itself.
>> Oh yet another question on that front.
>> does voiceover have to be on to  update the voices from compact to enhanced?
>> Tim explained how it is done, cannot seem to get back there, but that can be 
>> a task for one of my mac using homemates, if I can turn off vo I mean.
>>> On Tue, 28 Jun 2022, E.T. wrote:
>>>   Karen, I would strongly suggest you put your focus solely on mastering 
>>> Voiceover before venturing into other areas. Get a handle on the Voiceover 
>>> commands as well as those the the standard Mac commands.
>>> 
>>>   Find a local Voiceover user and invite him/her to come over and work with 
>>> you.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
>>> will make violent revolution inevitable."
>>> --John F. Kennedy
>>> My e-Mail:
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
>>> On 6/28/2022 1:49 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
  Well...apparently I must have missed a detail.
  going to the dock does not let you type a program name at all.  It does
  put you  on a list, but as I am still finding  or configuring a solidly
  understandable voice, not all programs are well easy to follow.
  Again part of why I want to run text edit, typing practice that does not
  cause a problem.
  and on another note, there seem to be groups everywhere,
  Honestly I am working from the assumption that should I manage to launch
  text edit I would end up on a text field.
  I might add, that there is not a more fluid display layout...its quite
  frustrating when I cannot discover how to repeat what I just heard, and
  there is an identifier of a command I still cannot translate.
 
 
 
  On Mon, 27 Jun 2022, Herbie Allen wrote:
 
 >  It’s the first thing on your Doc. Hit enter, on Finder, and you’re >  
 > good to go.D
 > > >  On Jun 27, 2022, at 21:30, Karen Lewellen 
 > > >  > >  wrote:
 > > > >  and just to confirm, the command to open the finder?
 > > > > > > > >  On Mon, 27 Jun 2022, Herbie Allen wrote:
 > > > > >  VO D is the Doc, VO Shift D is the Desktop. A lot of default 
 > > > > > apps > > >  are in the Doc, but if not, Open the finder and do a 
 > > > > > Command shift > > >  A. This will bring up the apps folder. You 
 > > > > > can  also use  Siri to > > >  open apps.
 > > > > > > >  On Jun 26, 2022, at 22:18, Karen Lewellen > > > >  
 > > > > > > >  wrote:
 > > > > > > > >  I am not interested in running the terminal if voiceover 
 > > > > > > > > is not > > > >  100%  no idea how to even get there.
 > > > >  Are applications normally in the docs?
 > > > >  Something I read from  another voiceover source suggested that > 
 > > > > > > >  vo-d just takes you to the desktop.
 > > > >  Still want to  access voiceover help keys and the like, which do 
 > > > > > > > >  not seem to  be terminal associated.
 > > > >  Likewise pages could  serve the same typing practice goal.
 > > > > > > > >  All of my Linux Ubuntu shell work is via a service, 
 > > > > > > > > called > > > >  shellworld, using my non Linux screen 
 > > > > > > > > reader.
 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jonathan Cohn wrote:
 > > > > > > > > >  Hello,
 > > > > >  If applications are in the dock then pressing the VO-D then the 
 > > > > > > > > > >  first few letters of the applications followed by 
 > > > > > return will > > > > >  launch the application.
 > > > > >  Alternatively, you could use the open command in terminal.
 > > > > >  open -a textedit
 > > > > >  will open and activate the textedit application
 > > > > >  open myDocument.txt
 > > > > >  will open myDocument.txt in the default application for that > 
 > > > > > > > > >  file
 > > > > >  open -a textedit myDocument.txt
 > > > > >  will open 

Re: Anyone know the command for enabling/disabling Voiceover speech on an Apple TV?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

On the phone, if you do a three finger double tap, that will turn voiceover 
speech off. Then you can issue the same command to turn it back on.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 22, 2022, at 12:26 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the responses.  All of these are both ways of turning VO on and 
> off, which is what I’ve been doing.  I just thought that, as on the phone, 
> there was a way to just turn speech on and off.  If there’s not, I’ll just 
> keep doing what I’ve been doing, which is triple clicking the menu button to 
> turn VO off and back on again.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jun 22, 2022, at 11:09 AM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  Or triple click the Menu button which is above the Siri button.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
>> will make violent revolution inevitable."
>> --John F. Kennedy
>> My e-Mail:
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 6/22/2022 8:33 AM, etscrivani via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> I have an Apple TV 4K that I got back in 2017. On the left side of the two 
>>> columns of buttons, I hold down the middle round button and just tell it 
>>> "turn Voice Over Off". When I want VO to return I hold the same button down 
>>> and tell it "Turn Voice Over On."
>>> HTH.
>>> Eileen
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
>>> Behalf Of Les Kriegler
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 11:06 AM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Anyone know the command for enabling/disabling Voiceover 
>>> speech on an Apple TV?
>>> Hi Donna,
>>> I have one of the older remotes, but what I do is locate the role of three 
>>> buttons. You would hold in the middle button and say “turn on voiceover. 
>>> “That will stay in effect until you wish to turn it off using the same 
>>> procedure. We use this often, as my wife doesn’t wish to hear the speech 
>>> when she is viewing the Apple TV contact. It works fine. S Sometimes, she 
>>> forgets to do it, so I want up doing it but it works as it should. I hope 
>>> this is what you were looking for.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Les
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Jun 22, 2022, at 10:57 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> For some reason, since the last update, when I start our Apple TV, it 
>>>> starts without speech.  I think, though, that VO is on, because I hear the 
>>>> other VO noises.  I can always just turn VO off and back on, and then all 
>>>> is fine, but I’m thinking I should be able to just activate speech.  Is 
>>>> there a command for doing that on the Apple TV remote?  I seem to recall 
>>>> that there is one, but Google yielded nothing.
>>>> TIA,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
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>>>> 
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9E036711-EEFD-4EF4-8CE4-2C4DE31F649F%40me.com.
>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rathe

Re: Anyone know the command for enabling/disabling Voiceover speech on an Apple TV?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I have one of the older remotes, but what I do is locate the role of three 
buttons. You would hold in the middle button and say “turn on voiceover. “That 
will stay in effect until you wish to turn it off using the same procedure. We 
use this often, as my wife doesn’t wish to hear the speech when she is viewing 
the Apple TV contact. It works fine. S Sometimes, she forgets to do it, so I 
want up doing it but it works as it should. I hope this is what you were 
looking for.
Best regards,
Les 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 22, 2022, at 10:57 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> For some reason, since the last update, when I start our Apple TV, it starts 
> without speech.  I think, though, that VO is on, because I hear the other VO 
> noises.  I can always just turn VO off and back on, and then all is fine, but 
> I’m thinking I should be able to just activate speech.  Is there a command 
> for doing that on the Apple TV remote?  I seem to recall that there is one, 
> but Google yielded nothing.
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
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Re: Installer in Progress

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

Tim Kilbert said “I ignore things so I don’t have to worry about them. “Boy, 
those are words to live by. I fully support that approach.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2022, at 11:21 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have had this announced a time or two as well.  I have just taken it to be 
> VO reading something that is supposed to happen in the background.  It hasn’t 
> affected anything really, so I’ve ignored it.  Sorry, not much help, but I 
> tend to ignore a lot so I don’t have to worry about anything :).
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 17, 2022, at 09:18, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>   After I have booted into a second volume (Big Sur), when I boot back into 
>> (Monterey) 12.4, I hear "Installer in Progress" followed by "authenticating" 
>> or something like that. Then I must click the mouse to get Voiceover focus 
>> on the login prompt.
>> 
>>   This doesn't happen when I boot straight into Monterey. Any ideas on this? 
>> I looked at the installer log in system info but did not see anything 
>> meaningful. Thanks.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
>> will make violent revolution inevitable."
>> --John F. Kennedy
>> My e-Mail:
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
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> 
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Re: Anyone have any experience with the Airpods Max?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

Well, I will add my positive feedback to everyone else regarding the AirPods 
Max. I bought them and pay them overtime over six months. Interest free. What I 
like about them besides what everybody else has said is the fact that they over 
the ear. I wear hearing aids almost all day and they go in my ears and after 
wearing those, I really want to wear something that goes over my ear and over 
my head. It’s some comfortable and much preferred after wearing hearing aids. 
Hope this is helpful.
Best,
Les 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2022, at 9:36 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Joseph,
> 
> I’m really amazed at all the positive feedback you all have posted about 
> these headphones.  I’m really excited to check them out.  It’s funny, when 
> Apple came out with the original Airpods, I never thought I would want over 
> the ear headphones again.  I love the tiny size and the convenience of my 
> AirPods Pro.  But the very thing I love about them is, in my current 
> situation, the very thing that keeps me from using them.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2022, at 12:05 AM, joseph hudson  wrote:
>> 
>> Donna, very happy with them. It's one of the best purchases I've ever made 
>> yet. I use them every day with my phone in my Mac.
>> Joseph Hudson
>> 
>> Home phone
>> 
>> 254-698-1414
>> 
>> Personal cell
>> 
>> 254-466-1251
>> EmailFaceTime/iMessage
>> jhud7...@twc.com
>> Technology support for the blind
>> Telephone
>> 254-300-7667
>> 
>> Emergency cell
>> 
>> 254-813-2461
>> Skype
>> joseph.hudson89 
>> 
>> facebook
>> https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404
>> Twitter
>> https://twitter.com/josephhudson89 
>> 
>>> On Apr 29, 2022, at 6:36 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good morning, all,
>>> 
>>> I’ve had the AirPods Pro for years, and in terms of performance and sound 
>>> am quite happy with them.  But the left one has never really fit snugly in 
>>> my ear, and because of my involvement with the clinical trial I mentioned a 
>>> few weeks back, I’m going to be doing a lot of plane travel over the next 
>>> several years.  I don’t use my Airpods on the plane, because I’m afraid one 
>>> of them will fall out and I’ll never find it again.  So, I’m thinking about 
>>> investing in a good set of over-the-ear headphones, and since I’ve been 
>>> happy with my Airpods Pro, the Max are currently at the top of my list..
>>> 
>>> Anyone on the list using them? If yes, are you happy with them?  Pros? 
>>> Cons? 
>>> TIA,
>>> Donna
>>> 
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RE: A bit of personal news

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I certainly wish you the best of luck with your upcoming surgery. Hope it isn’t 
too painful during the recovery. I’d be interested in how this works out and 
how you are doing.

kriegle...@gmail.com  .

Best,

 

Les

 

From: 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries  
Sent: Monday, April 4, 2022 5:42 PM
To: 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: OT: A bit of personal news

 

Hi all,

 

Warning, this is a little long.  I’ve debated whether or not to share this with 
the list, but I’ve known many of you in this community for a long time now, so 
I thought I would, since it could potentially be of interest to others here who 
have my same visual condition.  If you don’t want to read, feel free to hit the 
delete key. :)

 

Last fall, , National Public Radio did a story about a clinical trial that was 
being conducted using a new gene editing technique called CRISPR to treat 
Liber’s Congenital Amaurosis, which is the condition that caused my blindness.  
Being an inquisitive sort, I decided to try and find out more.  My cousin who 
works in genetics was able to track down the study, and I subsequently 
volunteered to be a participant.

 

The whole story is long, but here’s a synopsis.  I went to Portland OR in 
November, where they had to do a genetic panel to make sure I was a match for 
the specific genetic mutation that they’re studying.  Shortly before Christmas, 
I received the news that I am in fact a match, and that I had been accepted for 
participation in the trial.  There followed a fair amount of pre-surgery stuff, 
such as having a congenital cataract removed in order to give the surgeon 
better access to my retina.  But all that is now done, and I leave on Wednesday 
for Portland.  The procedure will be performed on April 12.

 

Crispr is pretty amazing stuff.  It has a lot of promise in a wide variety of 
applications that could make many people’s lives better.  My layperson’s 
explanation of it is that they will turn a tiny bot armed with scissors loose 
in my retina.  The bots’ job will be to cut out the malfunctioning area of the 
gene and mend it, so that the gene starts to produce the necessary proteins to 
send visual information to the brain.  Over time, this is expected to produce a 
gradual improvement in my vision.  For a more medically based explanation, you 
can check out this link: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-020-0493-4.

 

I know that we all have different feelings about the “cure.”  As for me 
personally, I have never sought it out.  In fact, many who know me were 
surprised that I volunteered for the trial—to some extent, including myself. I 
do have some vision, and I do use the vision that I have, so I wouldn’t say no 
to any improvement, should that be the outcome.  But my primary motivation for 
volunteering was to help further the science, and whatever my personal outcome, 
I’m excited to be a part of that.  So far, none of the participants has had 
reason to go out and buy a new car, so, my expectation is that, while I may see 
better, the overall picture of my life won’t change that much.

 

 

Though I do experience moments when I wonder if I’m certifiably insane for 
letting someone take a pair of pruning shears to my genes, I’m  optimistic and 
excited at the prospect of leaving this legacy for others who have LCA.

 

If you’ve read all this, thanks for reading.  It is not currently my plan to 
send updates to the list, because it is off-topic and will not be of interest 
to everyone.  But if you want to be updated, let me know, and I can email you 
privately.

Cheers,

Donna

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Reading System Dialogs

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
The subject line says it all. I have one system dialog that keeps up popping. 
How does one read these? Thanks.
Best,

Les

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Re: Files stop g

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Cait,
Here’s how we can look at the QuickLook feature. It allows the ability to check 
out what a file is. But it cannot be changed. So for an audio file, you can 
determine what it is. If you want to access the controls such as playing and 
stopping the file, then you must open the file.
Best,

Les

> On Feb 27, 2022, at 5:18 AM, Caitlyn Furness  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Les.  I’ll def give this a try!
> 
> Cait
> 
> 
>> On Feb 27, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Cait,
>> I went to the file I wished to play,. An m4a file which is an audio file. 
>> Then I hit Command-Y and after a few seconds, the file started playing. 
>> Hitting the space Barr interrupted the stream and took me back to the files 
>> list. Give that a shot and see what happens. I thought I needed to hit the 
>> space Barr to start playback, but that actually stopped it. Hope this helps.
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Feb 26, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Caitlyn Furness  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> dHi,
>>> 
>>> I use the quick look option with my MacBookair regularly.  Lately, the 
>>> files stop playing after only a flutes of me hitting the space bar.  Most 
>>> of the files I am veg are mp3 files.
>>> 
>>> What am I doing wrong?  This used to Amy iMac, but now that I am on a 
>>> laptop it seems to not work as smoothly.. did just get vlc, so maybe I’ll 
>>> try out this option, unless anyone has any th?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Cait
>>> 
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Re: Files stop g

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Cait,
I went to the file I wished to play,. An m4a file which is an audio file. Then 
I hit Command-Y and after a few seconds, the file started playing. Hitting the 
space Barr interrupted the stream and took me back to the files list. Give that 
a shot and see what happens. I thought I needed to hit the space Barr to start 
playback, but that actually stopped it. Hope this helps.
Best,

Les

> On Feb 26, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Caitlyn Furness  
> wrote:
> 
> dHi,
> 
> I use the quick look option with my MacBookair regularly.  Lately, the files 
> stop playing after only a flutes of me hitting the space bar.  Most of the 
> files I am veg are mp3 files.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?  This used to Amy iMac, but now that I am on a laptop 
> it seems to not work as smoothly.. did just get vlc, so maybe I’ll try out 
> this option, unless anyone has any th?
> 
> Thanks,
> Cait
> 
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Re: Mail Layout?

[Les Kriegler]

I am not near my Mac right now. However, I may have given you the wrong command 
for reading by word. If option right there on option left arrow do not work, 
tri VO right and VO left.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 26, 2022, at 4:04 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
> First, you need to make certain that you expand the conversation you were 
> reading with the right arrow key. Then, you should be able to hear much of 
> the message you want. If you wanna read by character by word, press enter on 
> the message you wish to read and then you can use your Aerokis left and right 
> to read by character. Then option right arrow and option left arrow will read 
> a word forward or a word backward respectively.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Fazil M.  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Group.
>> I still use my Windows computer for my email as I don’t feel comfortable 
>> with reading Mail in Mac.
>> My mac mail layout is as follows:
>> From left to right, it is:
>> Toolbar, Mailbox table, verticle splitter, messages table, horizontal 
>> splitter and message content scroll  area.
>> I have a ten-message conversation in messages table and the ten-message 
>> conversation is collapsed.
>> How can I read this conversation message by message and word by word with my 
>> arrow keys, please?
>> Can a blind person use those two splitters? If yes, what do they do?
>> Thanksf!
>>  
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Re: Mail Layout?

[Les Kriegler]

First, you need to make certain that you expand the conversation you were 
reading with the right arrow key. Then, you should be able to hear much of the 
message you want. If you wanna read by character by word, press enter on the 
message you wish to read and then you can use your Aerokis left and right to 
read by character. Then option right arrow and option left arrow will read a 
word forward or a word backward respectively.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Fazil M.  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi, Group.
> I still use my Windows computer for my email as I don’t feel comfortable with 
> reading Mail in Mac.
> My mac mail layout is as follows:
> From left to right, it is:
> Toolbar, Mailbox table, verticle splitter, messages table, horizontal 
> splitter and message content scroll  area.
> I have a ten-message conversation in messages table and the ten-message 
> conversation is collapsed.
> How can I read this conversation message by message and word by word with my 
> arrow keys, please?
> Can a blind person use those two splitters? If yes, what do they do?
> Thanksf!
>  
> -- 
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> list.
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>  
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Re: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Jason and Jonathan,
Okay, I did not interact with the Users Table. It’s working fine now. I am on 
the phone with Apple Accessibility Support as I write this. He is also 
concerned that the setting is not sticking, so he’s discussing with his 
engineering colleagues as I wait. Thanks for the assist, I will definitely save 
these e-mails in case I need to do this again.
Best,

Les

> On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:42 AM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> It’s under Users and Groups, then interact with the table of categories, 
> choose Login Options, and press the Accessibility Options button. There is a 
> list of accessibility features, including VoiceOver, with a check box next to 
> each one.
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Fazil M. 
> mailto:mfa...@outlook.com>>
> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 23:16
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: RE: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
> 
> Nor did I!
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Les Kriegler
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2022 3:59 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
>  
> Hi Jason,
>  
> Well, I looked in the login options area and I cannot locate anything to talk 
> about enabling voiceover there. I saw something in VO utilities where 
> voiceover was unable to that’s checked, but I don’t see anything in the login 
> and option screen.
>  
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Les Kriegler  <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jason,
>  
> That might be the step I missed this time. I’m sure we did that the first 
> time it happened. I will definitely check that out. Thank you.
> Best,
> Les
>  
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:30 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
>  
> Did you enable VoiceOver at startup under login preferences?
>  
> From:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Les Kriegler 
> mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>>
> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 17:16
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have run into a problem for the second time this week. What is happening is 
> it when I start up my Mac, VoiceOver does not come on at the logon prop for 
> my password. I fixed it earlier this week when I called Apple accessibility, 
> but I cannot recall the exact steps to take care of this again. Also, I don’t 
> know why the setting isn’t holding. Essentially, I wanted to users and 
> accounts and unlock the settings so that I could make changes. I went in the 
> system preferences shows accessibility and check the box it said to display 
> the welcome message while VoiceOver starts. But it’s not holding and 
> obviously also not working. Can anybody advise me what I need to do? Thanks 
> advance.
> Best regards,
> Les
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu>and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
> 
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> To view

Re: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Jonathan,

Well, I will check again tomorrow when I am able to use the Mac. In the 
meantime, I upgraded to 12.1 a long time ago I didn’t encounter this problem 
until this week. I then upgraded to 12.2 of Monterey and everything was working 
for a couple of days, and then again it stopped working. There must be 
something related to my system that is causing this. Thanks.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 2:08 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> It seems that the 12.X updates turn off this option.
> To turn it back on.
> 1. Open System Preferences.
> 2. Click on "Users & Groups"
> 3. Click on "Login options"
> 4. Unlock System Preferences by clicking on "Click the lock to make changes" 
> button if necessary." button.
> 5. Click on "Accessibility Options"
> 
> 6. The first checkbox in the table will be VoiceOver, click this if it is 
> unchecked. 
> 
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 18:59, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jason,
>> 
>> Well, I looked in the login options area and I cannot locate anything to 
>> talk about enabling voiceover there. I saw something in VO utilities where 
>> voiceover was unable to that’s checked, but I don’t see anything in the 
>> login and option screen.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Jason,
>>> 
>>> That might be the step I missed this time. I’m sure we did that the first 
>>> time it happened. I will definitely check that out. Thank you.
>>> Best,
>>> Les
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:30 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Did you enable VoiceOver at startup under login preferences?
>>>>  
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
>>>> behalf of Les Kriegler 
>>>> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 17:16
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> Subject: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> I have run into a problem for the second time this week. What is happening 
>>>> is it when I start up my Mac, VoiceOver does not come on at the logon prop 
>>>> for my password. I fixed it earlier this week when I called Apple 
>>>> accessibility, but I cannot recall the exact steps to take care of this 
>>>> again. Also, I don’t know why the setting isn’t holding. Essentially, I 
>>>> wanted to users and accounts and unlock the settings so that I could make 
>>>> changes. I went in the system preferences shows accessibility and check 
>>>> the box it said to display the welcome message while VoiceOver starts. But 
>>>> it’s not holding and obviously also not working. Can anybody advise me 
>>>> what I need to do? Thanks advance.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>>> 
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/210276F6-9009-4308-8126-2B8D93BE33EB%40gmail.com.
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>&

Re: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Jason,

Well, I looked in the login options area and I cannot locate anything to talk 
about enabling voiceover there. I saw something in VO utilities where voiceover 
was unable to that’s checked, but I don’t see anything in the login and option 
screen.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jason,
> 
> That might be the step I missed this time. I’m sure we did that the first 
> time it happened. I will definitely check that out. Thank you.
> Best,
> Les
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:30 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Did you enable VoiceOver at startup under login preferences?
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
>> behalf of Les Kriegler 
>> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 17:16
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I have run into a problem for the second time this week. What is happening 
>> is it when I start up my Mac, VoiceOver does not come on at the logon prop 
>> for my password. I fixed it earlier this week when I called Apple 
>> accessibility, but I cannot recall the exact steps to take care of this 
>> again. Also, I don’t know why the setting isn’t holding. Essentially, I 
>> wanted to users and accounts and unlock the settings so that I could make 
>> changes. I went in the system preferences shows accessibility and check the 
>> box it said to display the welcome message while VoiceOver starts. But it’s 
>> not holding and obviously also not working. Can anybody advise me what I 
>> need to do? Thanks advance.
>> Best regards,
>> Les
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>> -- 
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>> Visionaries list.
>>  
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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>>  
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>  
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
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Re: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Jason,

That might be the step I missed this time. I’m sure we did that the first time 
it happened. I will definitely check that out. Thank you.
Best,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 12:30 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Did you enable VoiceOver at startup under login preferences?
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
> behalf of Les Kriegler 
> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 17:16
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have run into a problem for the second time this week. What is happening is 
> it when I start up my Mac, VoiceOver does not come on at the logon prop for 
> my password. I fixed it earlier this week when I called Apple accessibility, 
> but I cannot recall the exact steps to take care of this again. Also, I don’t 
> know why the setting isn’t holding. Essentially, I wanted to users and 
> accounts and unlock the settings so that I could make changes. I went in the 
> system preferences shows accessibility and check the box it said to display 
> the welcome message while VoiceOver starts. But it’s not holding and 
> obviously also not working. Can anybody advise me what I need to do? Thanks 
> advance.
> Best regards,
> Les
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Voiceover is not coming on automatically at start up.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi all,

I have run into a problem for the second time this week. What is happening is 
it when I start up my Mac, VoiceOver does not come on at the logon prop for my 
password. I fixed it earlier this week when I called Apple accessibility, but I 
cannot recall the exact steps to take care of this again. Also, I don’t know 
why the setting isn’t holding. Essentially, I wanted to users and accounts and 
unlock the settings so that I could make changes. I went in the system 
preferences shows accessibility and check the box it said to display the 
welcome message while VoiceOver starts. But it’s not holding and obviously also 
not working. Can anybody advise me what I need to do? Thanks advance.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

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list.

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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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Re: MacBook Pro m1.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I couldn’t agree more with your comments. It would be nice to have at least one 
extra port. And you were right, it would also be helpful to have one on each 
side. Having said that. I am on a 16 day trip and I love having the year with 
me. It is as they say, as light as air. Just a great machine.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 6:35 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> That was smart, Jason.  When I bought my M1, I switched from an MBP back to 
> an MBA.  I’m happy with the Air in every way except for the two USB ports.  
> The thing I dislike the most about that setup is that both ports are on the 
> same side of the Mac, which makes it awkward to use them both at the same 
> time.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 10:31 AM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I skipped all of the models that had a touch bar – but not for that reason. 
>> I waited for Apple’s new ARM-based architecture, then I decided to wait for 
>> a model with more than two USB ports, and finally bought a 14-inch MacBook 
>> Pro.
>>  
>> Over-all, I’m glad it has function keys.
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
>> behalf of Brad Snyder 
>> Date: Saturday, 5February, 2022 at 10:29
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: MacBook Pro m1.
>> 
>> The TouchBar is really irrelevant, and not a problem for VoiceOver users.
>>  
>> You can perform any VoiceOver command that uses F-keys, by holding down the 
>> VO modifier along with the Fn key, and then pressing a key on the NumberRow 
>> that corresponds with the F-key for the desired VO command.
>> For example, pressing Fn + VO + NumberRow 1, will result in VoiceOver 
>> speaking the current application.  Pressing Fn + VO + NumberRow 8, will open 
>> the VoiceOver Utility, and so on and so forth.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 08:45, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>>  
>> Hi!
>> Ok, thanks for that one.
>> I don’t like the Touch Bar so I will get the 14 inch one which also has a sd 
>> card reader.
>> /A
>> 
>> 
>> 5 feb. 2022 kl. 15:33 skrev Brad Snyder :
>>  
>> The MacBook Air has never had a TouchBar.
>>  
>> The higher-end 14” and 16” MacBook Pros do not have the TouchBar.
>> Only the lower-end 13” MacBook Pro still has the TouchBar, for now.
>> It is rumored that the current low-end 13” MacBook Pro will be replaced with 
>> a newer 14” model, that will not have a TouchBar.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 08:04, Janet Ingber  wrote:
>>  
>> Good Morning,
>> I have an M1 Air and it does not have a touch bar.
>> Janet
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 8:42 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> Has all the MacBook pro’s with m1 chip the Touch Bar or is it just some of 
>> them?
>> Blessings.
>> /A
>> 
>> -- 
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>> Visionaries list.
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>> 
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Re: Improving music app experience

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

I am not experienced the cursive jumping in mail either. I will say, however 
that most of the time I use an external keyboard. I happen to be away this week 
and I’m using the Mack keyboard so I’m seeing the bumping of the trackpad 
happen for me. I can deal with it okay is I try to remember to lift my hands. 
Most often though, when it does occur, it happens when I’m going to put my 
hands on the keyboard I bunk the trap pad and it switches focus away from what 
I’m doing. In any event, it is certainly nice to have options and using a 
Bluetooth external keyboard is certainly one of them. Thanks. Best regards,
Les 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 3, 2022, at 10:35 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’d normally think that it may possibly be my hand hitting the trackpad as 
> well, but the question is then, why does it only happen in Mail, but not when 
> I’m typing in TextEdit, Pages etc.  Again, it’s not all the time, just some 
> inconvenient times :).
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 13:19, Herbie Allen  wrote:
>> 
>> I have not experienced this issue either. I use an external keyboard. For 
>> that matter other than the music issues, I’ve not   experienced some of the 
>> others mentioned.
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 13:38, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don’t experience my cursor “jumping” when typing in macOS Monterey.
>>> Could it be that your hand is inadvertently touching the TouchPad when you 
>>> are typing? 
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 13:03, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The thing that bugs me about Focus in Monterrey is how the cursor jumps 
>>> around when I’m typing.  I’m always having to edit my emails because the 
>>> cursor jumps to a different place in the message.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:56 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
 
 Hi!
 The focus in general has gone worse.
 I can be reading an email and all of a sudden be in safari.
 Regarding the music app I don’t know.
 I can navigate it just fine by interacting with the sidebar and the grid.
 The worst  thing in the music app is the search field.
 When I do a search I have to stop interacting a lot of times to get to the 
 result.
 And I can’t do another search without first closing the app and restart it.
 But its just me who don’t know how to handle it.
 Also VoiceOver is not made for braille users which just is not good.
 /A
 
> 3 feb. 2022 kl. 17:48 skrev 'Kristeen Hughes' via MacVisionaries 
> :
> 
> I would give anything if someone had a way to make the focus better with 
> VO. It used to work so well. The OS before Monterey sort of broke it and 
> Monterey did nothing to fix it at all. Does anyone have a way they’ve 
> come up with to work around it?
> 
> Kristeen
> 
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Does anyone have tips on making the music app experience better on the 
>> Mac? Frankly, I hate it! I find it a challenge to navigate. It often 
>> says not responding. Frequently voiceover seems to jump out of whatever 
>> focus I might be in.
>> 
>> I appreciate any advice. I will even consider a different app to manage 
>> my music.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Traci
>> 
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Re: Improving music app experience

[Les Kriegler]

I would agree with Brad‘s comments here. It is so easy to activate the 
touchpad. I pay attention to it and it still happens on occasion.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:14 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Correction to my shortcuts:
> 
> •cmd-left and cmd-right do the same as using just the left or right arrows.  
> The difference is that when you add the cmd key, the focus location within 
> the Music window is not as picky.
> • to fast-forward or rewind within a song, add the option key to the above.  
> That is, cmd-option-left or cmd-option-right.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:53, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> When it comes to the Search field, I prefer keyboard shortcuts.  So, to 
>> search for something, press cmd-f.  This will automatically take you to the 
>> search field.  After entering your information, press return.  Often, VO 
>> will auto-jump over to the results.  If it doesn’t, try VO-j.
>> 
>> Some other hits for easier navigation and use:
>> 
>> • I change the view of my playlists to Song view as I find the columns that 
>> are created easier to navigate in/through.
>> • use VO-FN-left or VO-FN-right to quickly move to the first or last item in 
>> the Music window.  Sometimes, you need to hit the command twice.
>> • Use VO-cmd-t to quickly get to the sidebar table.
>> 
>> Know that there’s tons of keyboard shortcuts in the Music app.  Many of 
>> these are not commonly found in menus.
>> 
>> • space will play/pause the currently selected title.
>> • left/right arrow will do previous/next song.
>> • cmd-up or cmd-down will turn up/down the volume.
>> • press return to start playing when you’re focused on a song you wish to 
>> play.
>> • press cmd-right and hold to fast-forward within a song, cmd-left to rewind 
>> within.
>> 
>> Note that the above commands do not require VO keys at all, they are simply 
>> built-in Music media controls.  Also note that if you’ve moved out of the 
>> music app, or if you’ve brought VO focus to certain parts of the Music app 
>> screen, these commands may be unresponsive.  Just bring focus close to 
>> somewhere where the play button is and they’ll start working again.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Jamf Certified Tech
>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:05, Herbie Allen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In regards to the  search, if you VO left back to the side bar and 
>>> interact, you can find the search field again and VO space which should let 
>>> you write.
>>> 
 On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:56, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
 
 Hi!
 The focus in general has gone worse.
 I can be reading an email and all of a sudden be in safari.
 Regarding the music app I don’t know.
 I can navigate it just fine by interacting with the sidebar and the grid.
 The worst  thing in the music app is the search field.
 When I do a search I have to stop interacting a lot of times to get to the 
 result.
 And I can’t do another search without first closing the app and restart it.
 But its just me who don’t know how to handle it.
 Also VoiceOver is not made for braille users which just is not good.
 /A
 
> 3 feb. 2022 kl. 17:48 skrev 'Kristeen Hughes' via MacVisionaries 
> :
> 
> I would give anything if someone had a way to make the focus better with 
> VO. It used to work so well. The OS before Monterey sort of broke it and 
> Monterey did nothing to fix it at all. Does anyone have a way they’ve 
> come up with to work around it?
> 
> Kristeen
> 
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Does anyone have tips on making the music app experience better on the 
>> Mac? Frankly, I hate it! I find it a challenge to navigate. It often 
>> says not responding. Frequently voiceover seems to jump out of whatever 
>> focus I might be in.
>> 
>> I appreciate any advice. I will even consider a different app to manage 
>> my music.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Traci
>> 
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Re: PDF pen question

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brett,

Yes, I have experienced the same thing. What I have done when I use P pen is I 
go to the page I wish to read and then it wrecked with the page. After 
interacting, and the page will read. I would like to find a fix for this as 
well.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 5:47 PM, Brett Campbell  wrote:
> 
> 
> I am new to PDF pen. When I open a document, it will show there are six 
> pages, for example. I’m able to read the first couple of pages, then 
> VoiceOver says the remaining pages are blank. When I open the same document 
> in Preview, I’m able to read all pages. I’m hoping someone here can tell me 
> what I’m doing wrong.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Brett
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Re: How to Reduce Delay Between Successive Keypresses on Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
Thanks so much for the tip on moving to mailboxes quickly. Like Dave, I was 
frustrated by the delays it took to find the mailbox I desired. Typing in more 
than one letter makes all the difference. This will save me a ton of time.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jan 20, 2022, at 11:12 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No there is not.  The difference between the interface for Mac and Windows is 
> that Windows relies only on the first letter, whereas Mac is waiting for more 
> letters before it allows you to move on per se.  So, if you wanted to jump 
> quickly to Jason, type j a s, whereas if you’d like to move quickly to John, 
> type j o.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jan 19, 2022, at 21:47, Dave Carlson > > wrote:
>> 
>> What I’m referring to is the following example:
>> 
>> I’m in the folder view in Mail.
>> I press the “J” key to jump to the first folder starting with that letter.
>> If I want to then type another letter “J” or even if I want to type some 
>> other letter, I always have to wait about 3 seconds before it will respond.
>> Unless of course I press a down/up arrow first and then type the new 
>> character.
>> 
>> That seems very silly to me. Of course, I’m an old Windows user and I liked 
>> being able to tap a letter key repeatedly and skipping from one item to the 
>> next with that letter to speed up searching.
>> 
>> So for all the clever terminal command folks out there, is there a way to 
>> significantly shorten the required “dead time” before the Mac will wake up 
>> and respond to another keypress?
>> 
>> And I’m thinking this is a system-wide restriction, because it exhibits the 
>> same behavior in Finder, Dock, and others aside from Mail.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer
>> 
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Re: i phone going totally silent after phone calls and headphones are removed

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
Also, I have found that plugging in the phone results in VoiceOver always 
reading the log on screen as I have it set to do that by default. When I turn 
on the phone without plugging it in, VO may not start talking the first time, 
it will the second time.
Best,

Les

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 4:33 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Try plugging it into a wall charger instead.  The wall charger block has more 
> output and might kickstart the phone.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 14:22, Caitlyn Furness > <mailto:caitlyn.furn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> No, absolutely no Siri to speak of.  It’s a brick.  Now when I plug it into 
>> my mac there is no response whatsoever.  I am thinking about just leaving it 
>> for a time, letting it drain the battery and replug it in tomorrow morning 
>> and see what happens.
>> 
>> If it’s still like this I am going to try and get a friend to take me to the 
>> apple store and maybe they can fix it for me.  Wasn’t ready for an upgrade 
>> as yet, but maybe I’ll be forced to get one anyway…
>> 
>> Any suggestions?
>> 
>> Thanks Tim.
>> 
>> Cait
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:58 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Does Siri respond in a way that you hear her?
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 09:41, Caitlyn Furness >>> <mailto:caitlyn.furn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> that’s just it, I am getting absolutely no audible feedback!  I’ve tried 
>>>> asking siri to turn on vo, have triple clicked the home button, hit the up 
>>>> volume button a bunch of times, etc, with no luck!
>>>> 
>>>> Argh!
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Cait
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:17 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just a couple other suggestions. Try turning VoiceOver on and off, and 
>>>>> try turning up the volume to make sure that it didn’t accidentally get 
>>>>> turned down.
>>>>> Good luck,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 10:13 AM, Les Kriegler >>>>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Kate,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did you try powering off your phone and restarting it? Perhaps that 
>>>>>> might clear everything out and your phone will hopefully come back to 
>>>>>> normal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:10 AM, Caitlyn Furness >>>>>> <mailto:caitlyn.furn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Today I was on hold on a phone call using my i phone 8 plus.  After 
>>>>>>> being on hold for over an hour the phone suddenly went silent and I 
>>>>>>> haven’t been able to get it to make sounds or get vo to work!  I was 
>>>>>>> using lightning connected headphones on the phone call so I could 
>>>>>>> easily punch in numbers when necesssary.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any fixes for this?  The phone is now connect to my mac and is 54 % 
>>>>>>> charged and is charging, but still is totally silent.  The phone is not 
>>>>>>> muted…
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Caitlyn
>>>>>>> 
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Re: i phone going totally silent after phone calls and headphones are removed

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Kate,

Did you try powering off your phone and restarting it? Perhaps that might clear 
everything out and your phone will hopefully come back to normal.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:10 AM, Caitlyn Furness  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Today I was on hold on a phone call using my i phone 8 plus.  After being on 
> hold for over an hour the phone suddenly went silent and I haven’t been able 
> to get it to make sounds or get vo to work!  I was using lightning connected 
> headphones on the phone call so I could easily punch in numbers when 
> necesssary.
> 
> Any fixes for this?  The phone is now connect to my mac and is 54 % charged 
> and is charging, but still is totally silent.  The phone is not muted…
> 
> Thanks,
> Caitlyn
> 
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Re: Apple mail in Monterey

[Les Kriegler]

Yes, I often do not interact with the mailbox table. That might be why I’m not 
seeing it. I like to use first letter navigation when I can. I have to Mail 
accounts and I can generally jump between them using that method when I am in 
the mailbox list. It beats using the up-and-down arrows which I also have to do 
sometimes.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2021, at 10:24 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> I don't use iCloud mail, however, iCloud mail should be treated just like 
> any other mail account. If you have it active, it will be in the list with 
> any other mail account you have acted vated. just interact with the mailbox 
> list, and use voiceover navigation. If it's there, you should find it.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Dec 29, 2021, at 08:40, Les Kriegler  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Brad,
> 
> I have a question which I believe Lauri may have mentioned. How does one 
> locate the iCloud mailbox. I probably have the wrong terminology, it’s 
> probably not a mailbox. I have seen it when I tried to move messages iCloud 
> pops up. But I don’t find it in the list of mailboxes and folders. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>>> 
>> The layout of the Mailbox list did change a little beginning in macOS Big 
>> Sur.  There was no change between Big Sur and Monterey.
>> The primary difference is that Favorite folders are now listed at the top of 
>> the Mailbox list.
>> The Favorites area may contains combined folders, such as Inbox and Sent 
>> Items, for each mail account you have active in the Mail app.
>> These combined folders can be expanded to reveal folders for each account if 
>> you wish.
>> Below the Favorites, you will find Smart Mailboxes and mailboxes located on 
>> your Mac.
>> Below these mailboxes, you should find mailboxes for each account you have 
>> active in your Apple Mail client.
>> If you are having difficulty locating any of these mailboxes described 
>> above, be sure you interact with the Mailbox list using VO + Shift + 
>> DownArrow, and then use VoiceOver navigation to explore the list.
>> When using VoiceOver navigation, you will find heading for each mailbox 
>> group and each mail account..
>> If a group of mailboxes, or mail account group is collapsed, you can expand 
>> it using VO + Spacebar.  This action can be used to collapse any group as 
>> well.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 23:10, Lorie McCloud  wrote:
>> 
>> I just installed Monterey and I notice that there are some differences in 
>> Apple mail. I can only find 1 inbox but I have 2 mail accounts. vo doesn't 
>> say the name of the inbox as it used to. I'm not sure they're together. I 
>> think I just can't find iCloud. how does this work?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> Lorie
>> 
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>&g

Re: Apple mail in Monterey

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad,

I have a question which I believe Lauri may have mentioned. How does one locate 
the iCloud mailbox. I probably have the wrong terminology, it’s probably not a 
mailbox. I have seen it when I tried to move messages iCloud pops up. But I 
don’t find it in the list of mailboxes and folders. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> The layout of the Mailbox list did change a little beginning in macOS Big 
> Sur.  There was no change between Big Sur and Monterey.
> The primary difference is that Favorite folders are now listed at the top of 
> the Mailbox list.
> The Favorites area may contains combined folders, such as Inbox and Sent 
> Items, for each mail account you have active in the Mail app.
> These combined folders can be expanded to reveal folders for each account if 
> you wish.
> Below the Favorites, you will find Smart Mailboxes and mailboxes located on 
> your Mac.
> Below these mailboxes, you should find mailboxes for each account you have 
> active in your Apple Mail client.
> If you are having difficulty locating any of these mailboxes described above, 
> be sure you interact with the Mailbox list using VO + Shift + DownArrow, and 
> then use VoiceOver navigation to explore the list.
> When using VoiceOver navigation, you will find heading for each mailbox group 
> and each mail account..
> If a group of mailboxes, or mail account group is collapsed, you can expand 
> it using VO + Spacebar.  This action can be used to collapse any group as 
> well.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 28, 2021, at 23:10, Lorie McCloud  wrote:
> 
> I just installed Monterey and I notice that there are some differences in 
> Apple mail. I can only find 1 inbox but I have 2 mail accounts. vo doesn't 
> say the name of the inbox as it used to. I'm not sure they're together. I 
> think I just can't find iCloud. how does this work?
> 
> thanks.
> Lorie
> 
> -- 
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Re: Monterey and Logitech K780 keyboard

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Paul,
I cannot assist you with the k780. However, I use the k860 with Monterey. Since 
upgrading, the keys do not consistently perform the expected actions. For 
example, when I type Cmd-Q in the Mail program, sometimes I am taken to another 
message rather than exiting the mail app as should be occurring. Usually, 
turning off and on the keyboard resolves this, but it never happened until I 
upgraded to Monterey. I contacted Logitech support when Monterey came out. A 
representative indicated that because of some incompatibility with the Logitech 
keyboards and Monterey, an update was supposed to have been released about 10 
days ago. Since I was not able to locate anything about the update, I called 
Logitech Support this morning. The rep with whom I spoke indicated that he 
would get back to me in a day or two about this. You might wish to give Support 
a call at (646)454-3200 to discuss the issues you are experiencing. Good luck 
with this one.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 12:35 PM, Paul Hopewell  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> I am running Monterey 12.0.1 on my 2018 Intel iMac using a Logitech K780 
> bluetooth keyboard with VO set up to speak during iMac boot to enter my login 
> password. After a reboot the key to the left of the space bar acts like the 
> command key and the key to the left of that acts like the Option key which is 
> what I want. However if I then leave the iMac and keyboard switched on for a 
> while and allow the iMac login to time out and then login again the prior 
> option key acts like Command and the prior command key acts like Option. I 
> have looked at Keyboard and Modifier keys in System Preferences and see that 
> the keyboard is set to “bluetooth USB host controller” both after re-boot and 
> after login after timeout. For this keyboard the modifier keys are Option set 
> to Option and Command set to Command. If I change the keyboard to “K780” the 
> Option key is set to command and the command key is set to Option but this 
> change makes no difference to how the keys behave.
> So my questions are:
> - Why does Monterey not recognise the keyboard as “K780”?
> - If I change the modifier keys in System Preferences then when do these 
> changes take effect? Do I have to reboot for them to take effect?
> - Why does the keyboard behave differently after iMac timeout and re-login?
> - How do I fix these problems which did not happen before upgrade to 
> Monterey?0
> 
> Mean while I will revert to my Apple Magic Keyboard via bluetooth which works 
> as expected with no difference between login after reboot and after iMac 
> timeout.
> Many thanks for any tips … Paul Hopewell 
> 
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Re: Logging in on Macbook

[Les Kriegler]

Agreed. Everybody should know what your options are. The more information 
people have regarding their options and the potential consequences of the 
options to choose the better.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> Of course, but that’s where we can tell people the available options and 
> inform them of the risks so they can make there own  decision.
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 17:16, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> I know somebody who had them back in her apartment and she went out for a 
>> few minutes and it was stolen. Thanks gonna happen whether you take your 
>> computer out or not.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 6:10 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
>>>> 
>>> I think it’s one thing to have an opinion, but that doesn’t mean we should 
>>> not say something can’t be done. There are definitely good reasons for 
>>> having a password, but what if you don’t take your computer places? 
>>> Different security needs can be based on how someone uses there computer.
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 11:43, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Brad, actually, I’m glad you brought this up. This subject has come up 
>>>> before. The issue with turning off the need for putting in a password is 
>>>> problematic in my view. What if somebody steals your machine. Then they 
>>>> have access to it. I think that’s a small price to pay to make certain 
>>>> that your unit and that is protected. Just my opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I believe the next update of MacOS makes this login a bit easier. But 
>>>>> just like the iPhone requires a pass phrase after rebooting the Macintosh 
>>>>> requires a password. This helps keep your system secure as the  finger 
>>>>> print is encrypted in a way that uses your password and specific computer 
>>>>> security chip.  
>>>>>   Of course you can follow Brad's instructions and turn on automatic 
>>>>> logins, but if your computer is leaving the house regularly as mine does, 
>>>>> I don't recommend this. I believe that several conveniences might be 
>>>>> disabled when bargains are automatic too.
>>>>> I find that happening the caps lock key will turn off the sticky mode. 
>>>>> Another option would be to not use the caps lock he has a voiceover key. 
>>>>> Let us know if you need additional instructions.  
>>>>>   Best wishes,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 10:23, 'Catherine Turner' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I recently got a new Macbook and am a bit puzzled about what's meant
>>>>>> to happen when logging in.  On my nine years old Macbook, when VO
>>>>>> starts at the log-on screen, it says I'm in a scroll area, and from
>>>>>> there Ih select the user account and press it, then type in the
>>>>>> password.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On the new one, the first thing VO says is "sticky keys on" (I do use
>>>>>> sticky keys and have them switched on).  As I did set up Touch Id and
>>>>>> ticked all the boxes for its use in System Preferences, I thought
>>>>>> after VO said anything I must be at the log-on screen  so put my
>>>>>> finger on the touch id but nothing happened.  A sighted person said
>>>>>> there was a box for me to type a password but when I typed nothing
>>>>>> happened.  It seems the only thing that brings focus to the password
>>>>>> field is me swiping on the trackpad.  When I do that, VO says
>>>>>> "Voiceover on" and announces the password field and I'm able to log
>>>>>> in.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So I'm wondering if I should be able to log in using my finger?
>>>>>> Perhaps my finger's not consistent or the sensor needs wiping or
>>>>>> whatever which I can try but I just wanted to make sure I'm
>>>>>> understanding correctly when to place my finger.  Since I've only set
&g

Re: Logging in on Macbook

[Les Kriegler]

I know somebody who had them back in her apartment and she went out for a few 
minutes and it was stolen. Thanks gonna happen whether you take your computer 
out or not.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 6:10 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> I think it’s one thing to have an opinion, but that doesn’t mean we should 
> not say something can’t be done. There are definitely good reasons for having 
> a password, but what if you don’t take your computer places? Different 
> security needs can be based on how someone uses there computer.
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 11:43, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Brad, actually, I’m glad you brought this up. This subject has come up 
>> before. The issue with turning off the need for putting in a password is 
>> problematic in my view. What if somebody steals your machine. Then they have 
>> access to it. I think that’s a small price to pay to make certain that your 
>> unit and that is protected. Just my opinion.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> I believe the next update of MacOS makes this login a bit easier. But just 
>>> like the iPhone requires a pass phrase after rebooting the Macintosh 
>>> requires a password. This helps keep your system secure as the  finger 
>>> print is encrypted in a way that uses your password and specific computer 
>>> security chip.  
>>>   Of course you can follow Brad's instructions and turn on automatic 
>>> logins, but if your computer is leaving the house regularly as mine does, I 
>>> don't recommend this. I believe that several conveniences might be disabled 
>>> when bargains are automatic too.
>>> I find that happening the caps lock key will turn off the sticky mode. 
>>> Another option would be to not use the caps lock he has a voiceover key. 
>>> Let us know if you need additional instructions.  
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 10:23, 'Catherine Turner' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I recently got a new Macbook and am a bit puzzled about what's meant
>>>> to happen when logging in.  On my nine years old Macbook, when VO
>>>> starts at the log-on screen, it says I'm in a scroll area, and from
>>>> there Ih select the user account and press it, then type in the
>>>> password.
>>>> 
>>>> On the new one, the first thing VO says is "sticky keys on" (I do use
>>>> sticky keys and have them switched on).  As I did set up Touch Id and
>>>> ticked all the boxes for its use in System Preferences, I thought
>>>> after VO said anything I must be at the log-on screen  so put my
>>>> finger on the touch id but nothing happened.  A sighted person said
>>>> there was a box for me to type a password but when I typed nothing
>>>> happened.  It seems the only thing that brings focus to the password
>>>> field is me swiping on the trackpad.  When I do that, VO says
>>>> "Voiceover on" and announces the password field and I'm able to log
>>>> in.
>>>> 
>>>> So I'm wondering if I should be able to log in using my finger?
>>>> Perhaps my finger's not consistent or the sensor needs wiping or
>>>> whatever which I can try but I just wanted to make sure I'm
>>>> understanding correctly when to place my finger.  Since I've only set
>>>> up one user account on this new macbook it's not surprising VO doesn't
>>>> let me know about a scroll area with users to pick from, but it seems
>>>> a bit odd to me that it doesn't say anything else other than "sticky
>>>> keys on" until I swipe on the trackpad.  Is this similar to other
>>>> people's experiences?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Catherine
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quin

Re: Logging in on Macbook

[Les Kriegler]

Actually, I think what I said was that on a call start do you have to enter 
your password. I actually wasn’t certain whether you needed it into a password 
on a restart as I rarely restart my unit.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 12:47 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> I agree, and I always use a password on my Mac.
> However, you stated that entering a password after restarting a Mac is a 
> requirement, and this is not true.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Nov 20, 2021, at 11:43, Les Kriegler  wrote:
> 
> Hi Brad, actually, I’m glad you brought this up. This subject has come up 
> before. The issue with turning off the need for putting in a password is 
> problematic in my view. What if somebody steals your machine. Then they have 
> access to it. I think that’s a small price to pay to make certain that your 
> unit and that is protected. Just my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>> 
>> Hello,
>> I believe the next update of MacOS makes this login a bit easier. But just 
>> like the iPhone requires a pass phrase after rebooting the Macintosh 
>> requires a password. This helps keep your system secure as the  finger print 
>> is encrypted in a way that uses your password and specific computer security 
>> chip.  
>>   Of course you can follow Brad's instructions and turn on automatic logins, 
>> but if your computer is leaving the house regularly as mine does, I don't 
>> recommend this. I believe that several conveniences might be disabled when 
>> bargains are automatic too.
>> I find that happening the caps lock key will turn off the sticky mode. 
>> Another option would be to not use the caps lock he has a voiceover key. Let 
>> us know if you need additional instructions.  
>>  Best wishes,
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 10:23, 'Catherine Turner' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I recently got a new Macbook and am a bit puzzled about what's meant
>>> to happen when logging in.  On my nine years old Macbook, when VO
>>> starts at the log-on screen, it says I'm in a scroll area, and from
>>> there Ih select the user account and press it, then type in the
>>> password.
>>> 
>>> On the new one, the first thing VO says is "sticky keys on" (I do use
>>> sticky keys and have them switched on).  As I did set up Touch Id and
>>> ticked all the boxes for its use in System Preferences, I thought
>>> after VO said anything I must be at the log-on screen  so put my
>>> finger on the touch id but nothing happened.  A sighted person said
>>> there was a box for me to type a password but when I typed nothing
>>> happened.  It seems the only thing that brings focus to the password
>>> field is me swiping on the trackpad.  When I do that, VO says
>>> "Voiceover on" and announces the password field and I'm able to log
>>> in.
>>> 
>>> So I'm wondering if I should be able to log in using my finger?
>>> Perhaps my finger's not consistent or the sensor needs wiping or
>>> whatever which I can try but I just wanted to make sure I'm
>>> understanding correctly when to place my finger.  Since I've only set
>>> up one user account on this new macbook it's not surprising VO doesn't
>>> let me know about a scroll area with users to pick from, but it seems
>>> a bit odd to me that it doesn't say anything else other than "sticky
>>> keys on" until I swipe on the trackpad.  Is this similar to other
>>> people's experiences?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Catherine
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubsc

Re: Logging in on Macbook

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad, actually, I’m glad you brought this up. This subject has come up 
before. The issue with turning off the need for putting in a password is 
problematic in my view. What if somebody steals your machine. Then they have 
access to it. I think that’s a small price to pay to make certain that your 
unit and that is protected. Just my opinion.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> I believe the next update of MacOS makes this login a bit easier. But just 
> like the iPhone requires a pass phrase after rebooting the Macintosh requires 
> a password. This helps keep your system secure as the  finger print is 
> encrypted in a way that uses your password and specific computer security 
> chip.  
>   Of course you can follow Brad's instructions and turn on automatic logins, 
> but if your computer is leaving the house regularly as mine does, I don't 
> recommend this. I believe that several conveniences might be disabled when 
> bargains are automatic too.
> I find that happening the caps lock key will turn off the sticky mode. 
> Another option would be to not use the caps lock he has a voiceover key. Let 
> us know if you need additional instructions.  
>   Best wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2021, at 10:23, 'Catherine Turner' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I recently got a new Macbook and am a bit puzzled about what's meant
>> to happen when logging in.  On my nine years old Macbook, when VO
>> starts at the log-on screen, it says I'm in a scroll area, and from
>> there Ih select the user account and press it, then type in the
>> password.
>> 
>> On the new one, the first thing VO says is "sticky keys on" (I do use
>> sticky keys and have them switched on).  As I did set up Touch Id and
>> ticked all the boxes for its use in System Preferences, I thought
>> after VO said anything I must be at the log-on screen  so put my
>> finger on the touch id but nothing happened.  A sighted person said
>> there was a box for me to type a password but when I typed nothing
>> happened.  It seems the only thing that brings focus to the password
>> field is me swiping on the trackpad.  When I do that, VO says
>> "Voiceover on" and announces the password field and I'm able to log
>> in.
>> 
>> So I'm wondering if I should be able to log in using my finger?
>> Perhaps my finger's not consistent or the sensor needs wiping or
>> whatever which I can try but I just wanted to make sure I'm
>> understanding correctly when to place my finger.  Since I've only set
>> up one user account on this new macbook it's not surprising VO doesn't
>> let me know about a scroll area with users to pick from, but it seems
>> a bit odd to me that it doesn't say anything else other than "sticky
>> keys on" until I swipe on the trackpad.  Is this similar to other
>> people's experiences?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Catherine
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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> 
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>  
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The 

Re: Logging in on Macbook

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Catherine,

Congrats on your new Mac. If you were starting from scratch, in other words 
doing a cold start, you always have to type in your password first. Once you do 
that, touch ID should work for you while your computer is on. Just remember, 
anytime you do a cold start, you have to type in your password. Hope this helps.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 10:23 AM, 'Catherine Turner' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently got a new Macbook and am a bit puzzled about what's meant
> to happen when logging in.  On my nine years old Macbook, when VO
> starts at the log-on screen, it says I'm in a scroll area, and from
> there Ih select the user account and press it, then type in the
> password.
> 
> On the new one, the first thing VO says is "sticky keys on" (I do use
> sticky keys and have them switched on).  As I did set up Touch Id and
> ticked all the boxes for its use in System Preferences, I thought
> after VO said anything I must be at the log-on screen  so put my
> finger on the touch id but nothing happened.  A sighted person said
> there was a box for me to type a password but when I typed nothing
> happened.  It seems the only thing that brings focus to the password
> field is me swiping on the trackpad.  When I do that, VO says
> "Voiceover on" and announces the password field and I'm able to log
> in.
> 
> So I'm wondering if I should be able to log in using my finger?
> Perhaps my finger's not consistent or the sensor needs wiping or
> whatever which I can try but I just wanted to make sure I'm
> understanding correctly when to place my finger.  Since I've only set
> up one user account on this new macbook it's not surprising VO doesn't
> let me know about a scroll area with users to pick from, but it seems
> a bit odd to me that it doesn't say anything else other than "sticky
> keys on" until I swipe on the trackpad.  Is this similar to other
> people's experiences?
> 
> Thanks,
> Catherine
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: clock menu in system preferences - help

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Herbie,
Okay, that procedure worked. I like not having to interact in this case. I hope 
it works for Patrick. Brad, sorry I was snarky, I’m ill and should not have 
bothered with this today.
Best,

Les

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> Don’t forget guys we  also discussed the alternative method of  navigation 
> without interaction. When you get to the table, do an option down aero, then 
> up aero and you will find the clock menu that way. VO right, and you will see 
> all the options for date and what not.
> Herbie
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 09:56, Patrick Ford > <mailto:xplorer1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, when you get to the point  in the table after interacting then you can 
>> use command plus down arrow and then only use the up arrow to get to the 
>> clock menu - it's strange but it works  -
>> Come and See
>> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io 
>> <mailto:scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io>
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 10:53 AM, Les Kriegler >> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Brad,
>>> 
>>> Okay, I tried your steps. I’m running Monterey. When I get to the empty 
>>> cell announcements, I did a VO right arrow. I never heard row 15, rather 
>>> row 17 which was the first numbered row spoken. So I went back two to what 
>>> I thought was Row 15 and heard Fast User Switching. Aside from not finding 
>>> the Clock option, this entire procedure seems rather complicated. My one 
>>> complaint about Mac software is the need to interact as often as one needs 
>>> to do. I did try activating items that were referenced as empty cells, but 
>>> again I could not activate the clock. More trouble than it’s worth.
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Les
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 10:17 AM, Brad Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Patrick,
>>>> 
>>>> Assuming you are running either macOS Big Sur or Monterey, try the 
>>>> following, and see if it helps:
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  Go to System Preferences > Dock & Menu Bar.
>>>> 2.  Navigate to the table, and interact with the table using VO + Shift + 
>>>> DownArrow.
>>>> 3.  Once you have interacted with the table, navigate to the item labeled 
>>>> Clock Menu Bar, and stop interacting with the table by pressing VO + Shift 
>>>> + UpArrow.
>>>> 
>>>> Note: There seems to be a VoiceOver issue when navigating this table with 
>>>> macOS Monterey, in that labels for some table items are not spoken by 
>>>> VoiceOver.  Instead of speaking the correct label name for some items, 
>>>> VoiceOver may say Empty Cell, or VoiceOver may speak a row number.
>>>> In any case, the Clock Menu Bar item is the 4th row from the bottom of the 
>>>> table, which is row 15.
>>>> 
>>>> 4.  Once you have stoped interacting with the table, navigate using VO + 
>>>> RightArrow, until you hear VoiceOver speak Clock, and then Date Options, 
>>>> which is followed by several items, that can be selected or unselected to 
>>>> suit your preferences.
>>>> 5.  Once you have made your selection, close the System Preferences 
>>>> window, and you are done.
>>>> 
>>>> HTH.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 05:52, Patrick Ford >>> <mailto:xplorer1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> In the clock menu of doc and menus in system preferences I cannot make any 
>>>> changes. As I VO right arrow to make a change to the date and time it says 
>>>> it is dimmed and checked and some say dimmed and unchecked. How do I make 
>>>> the change I wish to make? I know there is a way to have Seri just say the 
>>>> time without the date mentioned.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Patrick 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Come and See
>>>> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io 
>>>> <mailto:scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io>
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners o

Re: clock menu in system preferences - help

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad,
Your suggestion is well-taken. I will contact Apple. I am able to get to the 
clock, I hear Clock Menu Bar but cannot do anything from there. I checked this 
out, as I felt I had inadvertently misled Patrick. Well, as they say, no good 
deed goes unpunished. Since I got this far, can you explain how I proceed once 
reaching the clock Menu bar? By the way, on my system, it is row 17 according 
to Voiceover. Thanks for the assist and the procedure.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hi Les,
> 
> Sorry to hear you are having difficulty following my instructions.
> The Clock Menu item is the 4th item from the bottom of the table.  There is 
> no interacting with this item.  You simply stop interacting with the table, 
> and navigate to the right using VO + RightArrow.
> Other than VoiceOver not reading items in the table, I find this procedure 
> works very well.
> If you have an issue with this process, I suggest you contact Apple, and 
> share your thoughts with them.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Nov 18, 2021, at 09:53, Les Kriegler  <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Brad,
> 
> Okay, I tried your steps. I’m running Monterey. When I get to the empty cell 
> announcements, I did a VO right arrow. I never heard row 15, rather row 17 
> which was the first numbered row spoken. So I went back two to what I thought 
> was Row 15 and heard Fast User Switching. Aside from not finding the Clock 
> option, this entire procedure seems rather complicated. My one complaint 
> about Mac software is the need to interact as often as one needs to do. I did 
> try activating items that were referenced as empty cells, but again I could 
> not activate the clock. More trouble than it’s worth.
> Best,
> 
> Les
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 10:17 AM, Brad Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Patrick,
>> 
>> Assuming you are running either macOS Big Sur or Monterey, try the 
>> following, and see if it helps:
>> 
>> 1.  Go to System Preferences > Dock & Menu Bar.
>> 2.  Navigate to the table, and interact with the table using VO + Shift + 
>> DownArrow.
>> 3.  Once you have interacted with the table, navigate to the item labeled 
>> Clock Menu Bar, and stop interacting with the table by pressing VO + Shift + 
>> UpArrow.
>> 
>> Note: There seems to be a VoiceOver issue when navigating this table with 
>> macOS Monterey, in that labels for some table items are not spoken by 
>> VoiceOver.  Instead of speaking the correct label name for some items, 
>> VoiceOver may say Empty Cell, or VoiceOver may speak a row number.
>> In any case, the Clock Menu Bar item is the 4th row from the bottom of the 
>> table, which is row 15.
>> 
>> 4.  Once you have stoped interacting with the table, navigate using VO + 
>> RightArrow, until you hear VoiceOver speak Clock, and then Date Options, 
>> which is followed by several items, that can be selected or unselected to 
>> suit your preferences.
>> 5.  Once you have made your selection, close the System Preferences window, 
>> and you are done.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 05:52, Patrick Ford > <mailto:xplorer1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> In the clock menu of doc and menus in system preferences I cannot make any 
>> changes. As I VO right arrow to make a change to the date and time it says 
>> it is dimmed and checked and some say dimmed and unchecked. How do I make 
>> the change I wish to make? I know there is a way to have Seri just say the 
>> time without the date mentioned.
>> Thanks.
>> Patrick 
>> 
>> 
>> Come and See
>> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io 
>> <mailto:scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io>
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
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>> 
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>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
&

Re: clock menu in system preferences - help

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad,

Okay, I tried your steps. I’m running Monterey. When I get to the empty cell 
announcements, I did a VO right arrow. I never heard row 15, rather row 17 
which was the first numbered row spoken. So I went back two to what I thought 
was Row 15 and heard Fast User Switching. Aside from not finding the Clock 
option, this entire procedure seems rather complicated. My one complaint about 
Mac software is the need to interact as often as one needs to do. I did try 
activating items that were referenced as empty cells, but again I could not 
activate the clock. More trouble than it’s worth.
Best,

Les

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 10:17 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hi Patrick,
> 
> Assuming you are running either macOS Big Sur or Monterey, try the following, 
> and see if it helps:
> 
> 1.  Go to System Preferences > Dock & Menu Bar.
> 2.  Navigate to the table, and interact with the table using VO + Shift + 
> DownArrow.
> 3.  Once you have interacted with the table, navigate to the item labeled 
> Clock Menu Bar, and stop interacting with the table by pressing VO + Shift + 
> UpArrow.
> 
> Note: There seems to be a VoiceOver issue when navigating this table with 
> macOS Monterey, in that labels for some table items are not spoken by 
> VoiceOver.  Instead of speaking the correct label name for some items, 
> VoiceOver may say Empty Cell, or VoiceOver may speak a row number.
> In any case, the Clock Menu Bar item is the 4th row from the bottom of the 
> table, which is row 15.
> 
> 4.  Once you have stoped interacting with the table, navigate using VO + 
> RightArrow, until you hear VoiceOver speak Clock, and then Date Options, 
> which is followed by several items, that can be selected or unselected to 
> suit your preferences.
> 5.  Once you have made your selection, close the System Preferences window, 
> and you are done.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Nov 18, 2021, at 05:52, Patrick Ford  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> In the clock menu of doc and menus in system preferences I cannot make any 
> changes. As I VO right arrow to make a change to the date and time it says it 
> is dimmed and checked and some say dimmed and unchecked. How do I make the 
> change I wish to make? I know there is a way to have Seri just say the time 
> without the date mentioned.
> Thanks.
> Patrick 
> 
> 
> Come and See
> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io 
> 
> 
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Re: clock menu in system preferences - help

[Les Kriegler]

Well, I understand what you are talking about now. When I unlocked, the only 
option I saw was to set time automatically and that was checked. I could not 
locate an option to change the hour and date manually.
Best,

Les

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Patrick Ford  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your reply. The clock menu is under the doc and menu tab in system 
> preferences. When I open this, there is a date option section, and the 
> preferences under this are dimmed. Where you sent me, and I did go there and 
> unlock, the clock menu is not available there. 
> Patrick 
> Come and See
> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 8:00 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Patrick,
>> Okay, go into System Preferences and choose Date and Time. Use your tab key 
>> until you find the option for Click the Lock to make changes. Make your 
>> changes and then choose the same option to lock that setting to prevent 
>> further changes. Hope this helps.
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:52 AM, Patrick Ford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> In the clock menu of doc and menus in system preferences I cannot make any 
>>> changes. As I VO right arrow to make a change to the date and time it says 
>>> it is dimmed and checked and some say dimmed and unchecked. How do I make 
>>> the change I wish to make? I know there is a way to have Seri just say the 
>>> time without the date mentioned.
>>> Thanks.
>>> Patrick 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Come and See
>>> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io
>>> 
>>> -- 
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Re: clock menu in system preferences - help

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Patrick,
Okay, go into System Preferences and choose Date and Time. Use your tab key 
until you find the option for Click the Lock to make changes. Make your changes 
and then choose the same option to lock that setting to prevent further 
changes. Hope this helps.
Best,

Les

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:52 AM, Patrick Ford  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> In the clock menu of doc and menus in system preferences I cannot make any 
> changes. As I VO right arrow to make a change to the date and time it says it 
> is dimmed and checked and some say dimmed and unchecked. How do I make the 
> change I wish to make? I know there is a way to have Seri just say the time 
> without the date mentioned.
> Thanks.
> Patrick 
> 
> 
> Come and See
> scripturepassage-subscr...@groups.io
> 
> -- 
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Re: Mail question

[Les Kriegler]

>From my message list, I type VO left arrow twice and I land on the list of 
>mailboxes.

> On Nov 14, 2021, at 5:56 PM, 'Kristeen Hughes' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Since upgrading to Monterey, it seems I can no longer shift+tab and then tab 
> to get to a list of mailboxes. How can one quickly move to specific 
> mailboxes. The keyboard shortcut that Apple says works for this does nothing. 
> It is command+shift+o.
> 
> Kristeen
>   
> 
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Re: Keyboard clicks on Monterey

[Les Kriegler]

Yes, when I experience this, I backspace out any characters and then start over 
and I hear the clicks.
Les

> On Nov 4, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Jessica Moss  wrote:
> 
> I’ve noticed a few times I don’t hear them either, but that’s always sporadic.
> 
>> On Nov 3, 2021, at 6:57 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am running Monterey and I still hear the clicks most of the time. When I 
>> was running Big Sur, I also heard the clicks most of the time. I don’t 
>> notice any difference in behavior between the two operating systems.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 3, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Paul Hopewell  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> Before upgrading my 2019 iMac to Monterey I used to hear a click for each 
>>> character I entered into a secure text field such as for a password. This 
>>> gave me confidence that the character was actually entered.This no longer 
>>> happens on Monterey. Note that I have set VO to speak each character as I 
>>> type it.
>>> IS there any way to restore this behaviour? 
>>> Many thanks for any tips … Paul Hopewell
>>> 
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Re: Keyboard clicks on Monterey

[Les Kriegler]

Hi,

I am running Monterey and I still hear the clicks most of the time. When I was 
running Big Sur, I also heard the clicks most of the time. I don’t notice any 
difference in behavior between the two operating systems.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 3, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Paul Hopewell  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> Before upgrading my 2019 iMac to Monterey I used to hear a click for each 
> character I entered into a secure text field such as for a password. This 
> gave me confidence that the character was actually entered.This no longer 
> happens on Monterey. Note that I have set VO to speak each character as I 
> type it.
> IS there any way to restore this behaviour? 
> Many thanks for any tips … Paul Hopewell
> 
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Re: Monterey Loses Voiceover?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi,
Well, what I have noticed is that when I lift the lid of my MacBook Air, I no 
longer hear anything from VoiceOver about entering my password. I just touch 
the power button as I have Touch I.D enabled, and then VoiceOver comes on. I 
spoke with Apple Accessibility on Friday, and many VoiceOver issues have been 
reported. I also have had some difficulty with my Logitech k860 keyboard. It 
does not always respond appropriately to commands I type. Turning off the 
keyboard and then turning it back on usually resolves any issues I have. I 
called Logitech and after the rep checked, he informed me that the Logitech 
keyboards are not totally compatible with Monterey. An update is supposed to be 
released by Logitech between November 10-15.
Best,

Les

> On Oct 31, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Jeff Berwick  wrote:
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> Since Big Sur, on an Apple M1 chip computer, I have had Voiceover crash all 
> the time.  I have gone into Voiceover preferences and reset all Voiceover 
> preferences and it has solved that issue.
> 
> A new issue, in Monterey is that, when your computer goes to sleep and 
> requires a password, Voiceover doesn’t always come on and it doesn’t always 
> play the clicks to indicate that you are typing in your password.
> 
> Try entering your password and hitting enter and see what results you get.
> 
> Hth,
> Jeff
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2021, at 9:53 AM, fzlmahmoo...@gmail.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Group.
>> I am having a lot of problems with Voiceover ever since I have upgraded to 
>> Monterey.
>> One of them is that Monterey does not keep voiceover active for long. After 
>> few hours of inactivity, Voiceover does not come back and I have to restart. 
>> Sometimes voiceover does not start with computer and I have to start it 
>> manually.
>> I heard that when VO does not come up after remaining inactive for 
>> sometimes, there is a windows popping up with some sort of image that needs 
>> to be clicked on. Since VO does not identify this Windows, I can not do 
>> anything.
>> Is it me alone having those issues?
>> Thanks!
>> 
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Re: Can the Mac OCR an image file?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

No worries. You are a fountain of terrific information. I’m sure I speak for 
money when I say that we appreciate all the assistance you provide here. Have a 
good day. Best regards,
Les
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 27, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> Thanks for this. I went in to VO Utilities and the Recognition category. I 
> had already checked the proper box. It is called Image Description. Is there 
> an enable option somewhere, or is Image Description all that is necessary?
> Best,
> 
> Les
> 
>> On Oct 27, 2021, at 12:52 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> 
>> Basically, the answer is “yes”, as long as you have an M1 Mac.  First, in 
>> VoiceOver Utility, under the VoiceOver Recognition category, make sure that 
>> Image Recognition is enabled.  You can download extra languages as well if 
>> any of your images require translation or to be spoken in another language.  
>> Next, open the pdf in Preview and navigate VO to the Document area where the 
>> image is.  Finally, press VO-shift-l.  This should do the job.  I tested 
>> this on a screen shot and it worked, sort of.  The first time I pressed 
>> VO-shift-l, VO said “Preview, Not Responding”, then said “No Description 
>> Available”, Thus I said “Hmph”.  So, being persistent and all, I waited a 
>> few seconds and pressed VO-shift-l again, and low and behold, it read out 
>> the text on my screen shot.  It did a wonderful job too.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Jamf Certified Tech
>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>>> On Oct 27, 2021, at 8:14 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>> 
>>> Someone just sent me a PDF image file.  Is there a way to make the Mac OCR 
>>> it?
>>> TIA,
>>> Donna
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: Can the Mac OCR an image file?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
Thanks for this. I went in to VO Utilities and the Recognition category. I had 
already checked the proper box. It is called Image Description. Is there an 
enable option somewhere, or is Image Description all that is necessary?
Best,

Les

> On Oct 27, 2021, at 12:52 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna,
> 
> Basically, the answer is “yes”, as long as you have an M1 Mac.  First, in 
> VoiceOver Utility, under the VoiceOver Recognition category, make sure that 
> Image Recognition is enabled.  You can download extra languages as well if 
> any of your images require translation or to be spoken in another language.  
> Next, open the pdf in Preview and navigate VO to the Document area where the 
> image is.  Finally, press VO-shift-l.  This should do the job.  I tested this 
> on a screen shot and it worked, sort of.  The first time I pressed 
> VO-shift-l, VO said “Preview, Not Responding”, then said “No Description 
> Available”, Thus I said “Hmph”.  So, being persistent and all, I waited a few 
> seconds and pressed VO-shift-l again, and low and behold, it read out the 
> text on my screen shot.  It did a wonderful job too.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Oct 27, 2021, at 8:14 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> Someone just sent me a PDF image file.  Is there a way to make the Mac OCR 
>> it?
>> TIA,
>> Donna
>> 
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Re: Apple Silicon vs Intel x86 for Voiceover users on Mac

[Les Kriegler]

When I purchased my M1 machine in June, I was informed that Boot Camp no longer 
existed and that was machines. If it had, I probably would’ve installed windows 
on the same machine. Personally, at this point, I am OK with running a separate 
machine although I will say that I’m spending almost all of my time on the Mac 
side. If I had installed windows, I don’t think that would’ve been the case. So 
maybe it’s for the best. I think Apple would think so.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2021, at 9:52 AM, Rebecca Skipper  wrote:
> 
> I have an M1 Mac not an Intel Mac.
> I haven't heard anything about Bootcamp working on the M1, and why mess up a 
> good machine since I already have a windows computer.
> If someone needed windows and still wanted a mac why not just buy a Mac Mini 
> and a Windows Tablet.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Herbie Allen
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 9:29 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Apple Silicon vs Intel x86 for Voiceover users on Mac
> 
> I don’t think it’s possible to run Mac on Windows. . What is making you 
> change your mind about running Window’s on Bootcamp? I like the fact that I 
> get a clean install and a machin that has much better hardware. My only 
> limitation is that if I ever get a newer Mac, I will either have to switch to 
> the  365 or use a separate machine.
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2021, at 00:27, Rebecca Skipper  wrote:
>> 
>> Well,
>> I was intrigued by the idea of running windows on a Mac, but I am starting 
>> to agree with others who say that if you want Windows get a Windows machine.
>> I haven't heard of anyone running Mac on Windows using a screen reader, and 
>> I do not take this feature for granted.
>> If you really want to run windows on a Mac look into Windows 365.
>> It is currently available only for business users.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 'Sabahattin Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>>  
>> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 1:19 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Apple Silicon vs Intel x86 for Voiceover users on Mac
>> 
>> It’s absolutely right that Apple Silicon is the future and if you’re buying 
>> now, and want to have maximum future and feature support, that’s the way to 
>> go. I would not dismiss Intel Macs out of hand—they can do one thing Apple 
>> Silicon can’t, namely, run Microsoft Windows. They are available now and 
>> will be supported, and if you don’t plan for the future, they’re still a 
>> viable choice. FWIW, the only features I could use, but do without, and that 
>> are only available on Apple Silicon, are Touch ID unlock via a remote 
>> keyboard and the Siri voices with intelligence-enhanced emphasis. However, 
>> that is today’s macOS; assuming I am not tempted to simply switch platform 
>> to continue using my Intel Mac, it might be a dead end for future features I 
>> desire later in upcoming macOS versions.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Sabahattin
>> 
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PDF Pen and Creating an Accessible PDF Document

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I want to relay a positive experience I just had with PDF Pen. I received an 
e-mail with a brochure that I wished to read. It opened in Safari, so I saved 
the file and opened it in Preview. It was a 10 page document and when I opened 
each page, there were hundreds of images. I don’t know if any text was visible, 
and I didn’t wish to scroll through all of the images to find out. So I opened 
the same flyer in PDF Pen. I thought I would need to scan it to extract the 
text. To my pleasant surprise, the document was automatically scanned; at least 
I assume it was, because the text was there ready for reading. I hear that 
Monterey will have similar capabilities, we’ll see how that works. In the 
meantime, I was very impressed and pleased with the access I had with very 
little effort.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: Reading Threaded Emails?

[Les Kriegler]

Do you have a quick nap on? If you do, that’s why you were getting 
unpredictable results. Use the left and right arrows hell down together to turn 
that off if it’s on. Then things should work properly.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 13, 2021, at 9:18 PM, Fazil  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi, Group.
> How can I read threaded email on Mac, please?
> When I hit right arrow in order to expand a set of threaded message, 
> Voiceover moves to the next threaded set of messages. What am I doing wrong 
> here?
> Thanks!
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Re: PDF Pen

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

Well, it seems like single page is checked by the fall and I have not figured 
out how to uncheck it. I have a sense that if I had continuous check, I could 
do what you suggest. Do you have the email address for the developer? I’d be 
happy to send something to the developer at this point. Thanks.
Best,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 22, 2021, at 5:45 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If you put it on continuous, it should allow you to go through the document 
> without using the Go To item.  I have not yet the latest version, so if it’s 
> being uncooperative, you may wish to eMail the developer.  They have been 
> responsive to me in the past.
> 
> Best.
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for the Information Command. Now my files open in PDF Pen. When I 
>> open the file, I can read the last page viewed. If I interact with the 
>> Scroll Area and Page Grouping and move to another page, I am told that 
>> content is empty. However, if I go to the Go Menu, and choose next page, 
>> then the text appears. In the View Menu, I have checked by default single 
>> page and continuous page. I would like to be able to view an entire document 
>> without having to go to the Go Menu and choose the next page. I’m certain it 
>> is a configuration issue, but I don’t know what to modify. Any assistance is 
>> appreciated.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Sep 22, 2021, at 4:20 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I’m not sure why it wasn’t seeing the text on page 3.  Not logical if it 
>>> was visible to Preview.  Regarding making all PDF’s open in PDFPen, locate 
>>> any pdf file you might have on your computer, press cmd-i to Get Info on 
>>> the file, navigate through the Info window to find the Open With item, 
>>> change it to PDFPen then navigate right to the Change All button.  You will 
>>> be asked to confirm your choice.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 20, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I purchased PDFPen today. I tested it on a pdf file. By default, it 
>>>> grouped pages. After page 2, it reported that content was empty after I 
>>>> interacted with the content. I loaded the same file into Preview, and the 
>>>> text was seen and read. I assume I was missing something. I looked for a 
>>>> setting/configuration menu and did not locate it. I would think I could 
>>>> have PDFPen open pdf files automatically? I will be looking at the Help 
>>>> System later today. In the meantime, I would like to know how to configure 
>>>> this app and would be curious as to why the text was not visible to PDFPen.
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>>> 
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/AC3D511E-4C6E-49F7-AEDB-5FEC0808FDDA%40gmail.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
&g

Re: PDF Pen

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the Information Command. Now my files open in PDF Pen. When I open 
the file, I can read the last page viewed. If I interact with the Scroll Area 
and Page Grouping and move to another page, I am told that content is empty. 
However, if I go to the Go Menu, and choose next page, then the text appears. 
In the View Menu, I have checked by default single page and continuous page. I 
would like to be able to view an entire document without having to go to the Go 
Menu and choose the next page. I’m certain it is a configuration issue, but I 
don’t know what to modify. Any assistance is appreciated.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Sep 22, 2021, at 4:20 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’m not sure why it wasn’t seeing the text on page 3.  Not logical if it was 
> visible to Preview.  Regarding making all PDF’s open in PDFPen, locate any 
> pdf file you might have on your computer, press cmd-i to Get Info on the 
> file, navigate through the Info window to find the Open With item, change it 
> to PDFPen then navigate right to the Change All button.  You will be asked to 
> confirm your choice.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> I purchased PDFPen today. I tested it on a pdf file. By default, it grouped 
>> pages. After page 2, it reported that content was empty after I interacted 
>> with the content. I loaded the same file into Preview, and the text was seen 
>> and read. I assume I was missing something. I looked for a 
>> setting/configuration menu and did not locate it. I would think I could have 
>> PDFPen open pdf files automatically? I will be looking at the Help System 
>> later today. In the meantime, I would like to know how to configure this app 
>> and would be curious as to why the text was not visible to PDFPen.
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
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> 
> 
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PDF Pen

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I purchased PDFPen today. I tested it on a pdf file. By default, it grouped 
pages. After page 2, it reported that content was empty after I interacted with 
the content. I loaded the same file into Preview, and the text was seen and 
read. I assume I was missing something. I looked for a setting/configuration 
menu and did not locate it. I would think I could have PDFPen open pdf files 
automatically? I will be looking at the Help System later today. In the 
meantime, I would like to know how to configure this app and would be curious 
as to why the text was not visible to PDFPen.
Best,

Les

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Re: Backup program fo rthe Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Frank,

Well I have not had much experience with this program yet, I will take a look 
at carbon copy cloner. It’s certainly accessible and my guess is you can back 
up to a specific folder if you wish. I did a total back up of my system when I 
got the program recently, but I really like it’s in her face and the fact 
voiceover works so well with it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 31, 2021, at 3:27 PM, Frank Ventura  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all, does anyone know of a voiceover friendly program that will run in the 
> background and backup a specific folder or folders to a specified location?
> Thanks
> Frank Ventura
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Re: Interested in purchasing a Macbook Air

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Terri,
I think you have received excellent advice and recommendations here. While I 
agree with not purchasing that particular unit, I think you are wise to look 
for a Mac while not spending as much as you would on a new unit. There is 
certainly something to be said for evaluating the Mac, as it is much different 
than Windows. I can tell you that when I purchased my first Mac several years 
ago, I became disenchanted with its performance. Perhaps an Apple Store 
representative could have assisted, but at the time, I just didn’t do it and 
really preferred Windows. Now, I am very happy with the MacBook Air with the M1 
chip. Fortunately, I paid a lot less than I did when I purchased my first Mac. 
With the new models, I was happy to get what I wanted, a robust machine for 
about what it would have cost to purchase a Windows machine, perhaps even less. 
Anyway, good luck with your search, I’m confident you will find something worth 
buying.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Aug 21, 2021, at 12:46 PM, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Especially since you want it for recording.
> 
> I can tell you about my 2014 era 11 inch Airbook. I have 8 gigs RAM and
> 512 Gb HD. I checked what Apple would give me for it as a trade in when
> I bought a Mac Mini last year. They offered me $160. I didn't take the
> $160, so I still have it. It's on it's last round of OS upgrades, i.e.
> Big Sur. 
> 
> Not sure what I'll do with the hardware with the next major OS upgrade.
> I just know I won't be keeping this old Airbook once running around the
> planet becomes normal again.
> 
> Janina
> 
> Brad Snyder writes:
>> I wouldn’t get a MacBook Air with less than 8 GB RAM, and at least 256 SSD 
>> HD.
>> I’d pass on this one.
>> 
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 20, 2021, at 17:00, Terri Stimmel  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sorry, I didn't mean to leave that information out. It states that it is the 
>> latest model. Just that it is refurbished. The model number is, MC969LL/A.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I hope this helps?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Terri
>> 
>> On 8/20/2021 4:53 PM, Joseph Hudson wrote:
>>> Hi we need to know how old is
>>> 
>>> It?
>>> Sent from Mail  for Windows 
>>> 10
>>> 
>>> From: Terri Stimmel 
>>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 4:42 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Interested in purchasing a Macbook Air
>>> 
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> My boyfriend found a deal for a refurbished Macbook Air. I am very 
>>> interested in purchasing this.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> However, I would like to get some opinions on it, if at all possible. I 
>>> don't know much about using a Mac. I have always wanted to use one. I 
>>> know in some ways they can have limits though.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would mainly like to be able to do a lot of different audio recording. 
>>> I currently use an HP laptop for the majority of things. And probably 
>>> still will.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Anyway, this Macbook Air has 4 Gigs of RAM, Intel Core I 5, 1.6 GHZ, 128 
>>> GB SSD. It doesn't state what version of the operating system it comes with.
>>> 
>>> Does this possibly mean it doesn't include one?
>>> 
>>> Also, how likely is it that this could be updated, if at some point I 
>>> wanted to do this?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts are much appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terri
>>> 
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Re: Start-up Issues

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Frank and All,
Well, as it turns out, automatic log in was off. This is what I wish as I do 
Not want my system to automatically log in in case my unit is stolen. In going 
through the process you recommended, I noticed that my File Vault had been 
turned on and my disk was encrypted. This happened yesterday during whatever 
setup process I went through. After I turned off the File Vault and re-booted, 
everything is back to normal;. Your suggestion certainly got me headed in the 
right direction and resulted in a great resolution! It’s just too bad that the 
Accessibility Team at Apple never mentioned this. Thanks for the great 
assistance!
Best,
Les Aug 19, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Frank Ventura  
wrote:
> 
> 
> Les, I had the same issue after upgrade to the latest Big Sir build on my 
> 2013 Mac Pro. The solution was to go into system preferences > user accounts, 
> > log on options. I then turned off automatic log in and did a complete shut 
> down. Then rebooted and went back in there and reenabled automatic log in and 
> all is fine now.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Les Kriegler
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 2:08 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Start-up Issues
> 
> Hi All,
> Yesterday, I received an update message on my MacBook Air running BigSur. I 
> went through the process and wound up using the Setup Assistant. Now, when I 
> re-start my Mac or boot clean from a shutdown, I have a different voice than 
> I had before which was Alex. More troubling is the fact that I can log in 
> with my password on my Logitech keyboard as before, and even on the Mac 
> built-in keyboard, I have to VO right and VO Left arrow before I can enter my 
> password. Once logged in, things work as they should. I hear something about 
> an installation message and then the password entry screen comes up. I have 
> been on the phone with Apple Support and after modifying settings, we went 
> through the Recovery process ands re-installed the OS twice. Things have not 
> changed. I also have an appointment at an Apple Store on Monday. If anyone 
> has suggestions prior to that, I would love to cancel that appointment! 
> Thanks for any assistance.
> Best,
> 
> Les
> 
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Re: Start-up Issues

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Frank,

Thanks so much for your suggestion. I will definitely give this a shot and see 
what happens.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 19, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Frank Ventura  
> wrote:
> 
> Les, I had the same issue after upgrade to the latest Big Sir build on my 
> 2013 Mac Pro. The solution was to go into system preferences > user accounts, 
> > log on options. I then turned off automatic log in and did a complete shut 
> down. Then rebooted and went back in there and reenabled automatic log in and 
> all is fine now.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Les Kriegler
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 2:08 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Start-up Issues
> 
> Hi All,
> Yesterday, I received an update message on my MacBook Air running BigSur. I 
> went through the process and wound up using the Setup Assistant. Now, when I 
> re-start my Mac or boot clean from a shutdown, I have a different voice than 
> I had before which was Alex. More troubling is the fact that I can log in 
> with my password on my Logitech keyboard as before, and even on the Mac 
> built-in keyboard, I have to VO right and VO Left arrow before I can enter my 
> password. Once logged in, things work as they should. I hear something about 
> an installation message and then the password entry screen comes up. I have 
> been on the phone with Apple Support and after modifying settings, we went 
> through the Recovery process ands re-installed the OS twice. Things have not 
> changed. I also have an appointment at an Apple Store on Monday. If anyone 
> has suggestions prior to that, I would love to cancel that appointment! 
> Thanks for any assistance.
> Best,
> 
> Les
> 
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Start-up Issues

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
Yesterday, I received an update message on my MacBook Air running BigSur. I 
went through the process and wound up using the Setup Assistant. Now, when I 
re-start my Mac or boot clean from a shutdown, I have a different voice than I 
had before which was Alex. More troubling is the fact that I can log in with my 
password on my Logitech keyboard as before, and even on the Mac built-in 
keyboard, I have to VO right and VO Left arrow before I can enter my password. 
Once logged in, things work as they should. I hear something about an 
installation message and then the password entry screen comes up. I have been 
on the phone with Apple Support and after modifying settings, we went through 
the Recovery process ands re-installed the OS twice. Things have not changed. I 
also have an appointment at an Apple Store on Monday. If anyone has suggestions 
prior to that, I would love to cancel that appointment! Thanks for any 
assistance.
Best,

Les

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Re: Two questions re configuring speech on my M1 Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Greg,

That’s good to know. As a new user of the math, I always appreciate getting 
tips like you just gave. I will tell you that that’s why I bought a Logitech 
K860 keyboard. I can toggle function keys between standard function keys and 
the media functions of the laptop. In this way, every time I put up my machine 
and I want to lower or raise the volume, I hit F 11 or F 12. I’ll leave mine as 
a default to control the media functions since it’s an easy toggle to go 
back-and-forth. Having said all that, the information you provided is very 
helpful and useful. Thank you.
Best,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2021, at 3:56 PM, Greg Wocher  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> The settings for the system voice can be found in system preferences. Go to 
> system preferences/accessibility. Once you get to the accessibility settings 
> you will find a table to select different options. Look for the one called 
> spoken content. This is where you will find the options to select the 
> settings for the system voice.
> 
> Greg Wocher
> 
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> 
>> Well, then I will be interested to learn the answer to that as well. What 
>> about the two keystrokes I mention being function key 11 and function key 
>> 12? Does not affect the system voice? Anyway, hope you get your question 
>> answered soon.
>> Best, Les
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 3:36 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Les,
>>> 
>>> You do that to adjust the VO voice that you have selected, that is the 
>>> voice that reads the screen and stuff.  I’m talking about the system voice, 
>>> the one that gives you system alerts, speaks at login,, etc.  That control 
>>> isn’t in the menu that you’re talking about.  Thanks, though.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 2:19 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Donna,
>>>> 
>>>> I don’t have my Mac with me, but I believe for adjusting the volume you 
>>>> need to do VO shift left and right arrow or VO shift command left and 
>>>> right arrow to move through the categories. Once you land and volume you 
>>>> will use the same combination but with a downer or a payroll to adjust the 
>>>> volume lower or higher. Now, if by chance your function keys are such a 
>>>> control your max media capability, then it’s a lot easier. F 11 lower 
>>>> volume and F 12 raises it. Hope this helps. Take care.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 12:14 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> First, I use multiple languages, so am trying to configure the voices for 
>>>>> my secondary languages.  I go into VO utility, select Speech, select the 
>>>>> language in question, and select customize to change the voice.  I can go 
>>>>> into the list of voices, but can’t seem to check the one I want.  
>>>>> Pressing Space does nothing, Pressing VO-Space does nothing, and pressing 
>>>>> Enter closes the customize dialog.  Any suggestions?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Second, my system voice is REALLY loud.  I would like to lower the 
>>>>> volume, but can’t find where to do it.  Anyone know how to do this?
>>>>> TIA,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
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Re: Two questions re configuring speech on my M1 Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

Well, then I will be interested to learn the answer to that as well. What about 
the two keystrokes I mention being function key 11 and function key 12? Does 
not affect the system voice? Anyway, hope you get your question answered soon.
Best, Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2021, at 3:36 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Les,
> 
> You do that to adjust the VO voice that you have selected, that is the voice 
> that reads the screen and stuff.  I’m talking about the system voice, the one 
> that gives you system alerts, speaks at login,, etc.  That control isn’t in 
> the menu that you’re talking about.  Thanks, though.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 2:19 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> 
>> I don’t have my Mac with me, but I believe for adjusting the volume you need 
>> to do VO shift left and right arrow or VO shift command left and right arrow 
>> to move through the categories. Once you land and volume you will use the 
>> same combination but with a downer or a payroll to adjust the volume lower 
>> or higher. Now, if by chance your function keys are such a control your max 
>> media capability, then it’s a lot easier. F 11 lower volume and F 12 raises 
>> it. Hope this helps. Take care.
>> Best,
>> Les
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 12:14 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> First, I use multiple languages, so am trying to configure the voices for 
>>> my secondary languages.  I go into VO utility, select Speech, select the 
>>> language in question, and select customize to change the voice.  I can go 
>>> into the list of voices, but can’t seem to check the one I want.  Pressing 
>>> Space does nothing, Pressing VO-Space does nothing, and pressing Enter 
>>> closes the customize dialog.  Any suggestions?
>>> 
>>> Second, my system voice is REALLY loud.  I would like to lower the volume, 
>>> but can’t find where to do it.  Anyone know how to do this?
>>> TIA,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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Re: Two questions re configuring speech on my M1 Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,

I don’t have my Mac with me, but I believe for adjusting the volume you need to 
do VO shift left and right arrow or VO shift command left and right arrow to 
move through the categories. Once you land and volume you will use the same 
combination but with a downer or a payroll to adjust the volume lower or 
higher. Now, if by chance your function keys are such a control your max media 
capability, then it’s a lot easier. F 11 lower volume and F 12 raises it. Hope 
this helps. Take care.
Best,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2021, at 12:14 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> First, I use multiple languages, so am trying to configure the voices for my 
> secondary languages.  I go into VO utility, select Speech, select the 
> language in question, and select customize to change the voice.  I can go 
> into the list of voices, but can’t seem to check the one I want.  Pressing 
> Space does nothing, Pressing VO-Space does nothing, and pressing Enter closes 
> the customize dialog.  Any suggestions?
> 
> Second, my system voice is REALLY loud.  I would like to lower the volume, 
> but can’t find where to do it.  Anyone know how to do this?
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
> -- 
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> list.
> 
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> 
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Re: Behavior of Zoom on an M1 Mac.

[Les Kriegler]

I am also running an M1 Mac and I’m not experiencing any difficulty either when 
accessing zoom meetings.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 2, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> So I’m helping someone with Zoom on they're M1 Mac. When they click on a 
> link to access a Zoom meeting, they get the normal Safari window asking to 
> allow, then they get an installation Window even though Zoom is up-to-date. 
> Has any M1 Mac user experienced this? I went through the privacy settings and 
> they can access a meeting typing in an id directly. The link isn’t an issue 
> as I could connect with Zoom on my Intel Mac with no problems so wondering if 
> there is some kind of different behavior with the M1 systems.
> 
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Mail Question

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I have tried to figure this out, but can not. So I’m asking the experts. How 
does one obtain an individual sender’s e-mail address from an e-mail list 
message? I looked at a couple of lists I am on at the bottom of a message and 
did not see an option for sending to the original sender. I am using Big Sur if 
that matters. Thanks in advance for the assist.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: Mac mail

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Candy,
I am using BigSur and I doubt the problems you are having are related to the 
OS. I will leave this one to the experts to assist you further.
Best,

Les

> On Jul 13, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Candie B  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Kliph.
>  
> Thanks so much for answering my query. I’m still trying to get it to work. It 
> seems like my MBA is not recognising the cursor commands, because random 
> announcements will be heard as I’m trying to use them. I saw that elusive 
> ‘Add’ button once, but it just disappeared again. I’ll keep trying, though. 
> Smiles.
> I’ve tried the commands, both using the fn key, along with the number row 
> keys, and the function keys at the top. Neither seems to work reliably, and 
> the keyboard help doesn’t even announce their functions.
> Has much changed in Big Sur, or is it something I’m not doing properly?
>  
> Thanks again.
>  
> Candie
>  
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Kliph
> Sent: 12 July 2021 12:11 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Mac mail
>  
> This is a tricky one.  Take your vo cursor and put it at the top of 
> favorites, then make sure your cursor is rooted to that spot, turn cursor 
> tracking off, then interact with favorites add button, this is where you 
> should get the dialog that you can add a mailbox and. It should be a pop up 
> menu, select the mailbox you want, and you should be good to go.
>  
> Follow my Podcast Channel 
> 
>   where you will find a variety of great shows to listen to
> My Christian Show 
> 
> Sports Talk 
> 
>  show
> And TechTalk 
> 
>  show
> You can always email us  with topic ideas 
> that you want to hear
> Follow the show you like, or the entire channel 
> 
>   to be entertained on demand!
> 
> 
> On Jul 11, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Candie B  > wrote:
>  
> Hi all.
>  
> I apologise if this has been covered; I’ve done a search with little luck.
>  
> Recently, due to some problems I started having with settings on my MBA, I 
> decided to update, and all my mail settings, including extra mailboxes, 
> favourites, and smart mailboxes have disappeared. I managed to get the 
> regular mailboxes back, and I’ll restore the favourites manually. How, 
> though, can I get my ‘all junk’, all bin’, and ‘all drafts’ back? I’ve read 
> several forums, and they say something about hovering the mouse over the 
> favourites bar and clicking ‘add’, but I cannot figure out exactly how to do 
> that.
>  
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
>  
> Thank you.
>  
> Regards,
> Candie
>  
>  
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Re: Disk Cleaners for Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Cait,
As I like to say, great minds think alike! I did find Disk Utility and looked 
at the various options. The only item I saw that related to disk cleanup[ was 
First Aid. From what I could tell, that should be run if you have disk issues 
and a repair is needed. But if that doubles as a cleaner, or there is something 
I missed, I’d be happy to know it. Thanks for the assist.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jul 12, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Caitlyn Furness  
> wrote:
> 
> I’m not Tim, but have a look under utilities/disk utility..
> 
> Cait
> 
> 
>> On Jul 12, 2021, at 11:19 AM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> 
>> Yes, I suspect you’re right in light of what you just shared. Are these 
>> tools in the utilities folder? I’d like to take a look at them. Thank you.
>> Best regards,
>> Les
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 12, 2021, at 10:38 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> While this is only my opinion, there really is no need for disk clean up 
>>> apps on the Mac.  The MacOS has built-in utilities and processes that clean 
>>> up your disk daily, weekly and monthly.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 4:30 PM, Les Kriegler >>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> Well, I attempted to use OS Cleaner for the past two days. While it seems 
>>>> like a nice cleanup utility, I could not figure out how to run a cleanup. 
>>>> I tried the typical methods with VO-Arrows and the tab key. I also tried 
>>>> activating various images but could not determine whether it actually ran 
>>>> a clean. So I went to Applevis and located a short podcast on Disk Cleaner 
>>>> Pro. I learned that after selecting the options desired, a Continue Button 
>>>> existed. It also gave a confirmation message when the cleanup completed. 
>>>> So I purchased Disk Cleaner Pro fore $1.99. Since I had upgraded to the 
>>>> paid version of OS Cleaner, I was able to have Apple’s billing department 
>>>> put through a request for a refund. While OS Cleaner had some nice 
>>>> features that Disk Cleaner Pro does not have, in my experience and 
>>>> opinion, it falls short on accessibility. End  of experience, end of story.
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
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>>>> Visionaries list.
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>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
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>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: Disk Cleaners for Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

Yes, I suspect you’re right in light of what you just shared. Are these tools 
in the utilities folder? I’d like to take a look at them. Thank you.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 12, 2021, at 10:38 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> While this is only my opinion, there really is no need for disk clean up apps 
> on the Mac.  The MacOS has built-in utilities and processes that clean up 
> your disk daily, weekly and monthly.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 4:30 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> Well, I attempted to use OS Cleaner for the past two days. While it seems 
>> like a nice cleanup utility, I could not figure out how to run a cleanup. I 
>> tried the typical methods with VO-Arrows and the tab key. I also tried 
>> activating various images but could not determine whether it actually ran a 
>> clean. So I went to Applevis and located a short podcast on Disk Cleaner 
>> Pro. I learned that after selecting the options desired, a Continue Button 
>> existed. It also gave a confirmation message when the cleanup completed. So 
>> I purchased Disk Cleaner Pro fore $1.99. Since I had upgraded to the paid 
>> version of OS Cleaner, I was able to have Apple’s billing department put 
>> through a request for a refund. While OS Cleaner had some nice features that 
>> Disk Cleaner Pro does not have, in my experience and opinion, it falls short 
>> on accessibility. End  of experience, end of story.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>> -- 
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>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
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>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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> 
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Disk Cleaners for Mac

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
Well, I attempted to use OS Cleaner for the past two days. While it seems like 
a nice cleanup utility, I could not figure out how to run a cleanup. I tried 
the typical methods with VO-Arrows and the tab key. I also tried activating 
various images but could not determine whether it actually ran a clean. So I 
went to Applevis and located a short podcast on Disk Cleaner Pro. I learned 
that after selecting the options desired, a Continue Button existed. It also 
gave a confirmation message when the cleanup completed. So I purchased Disk 
Cleaner Pro fore $1.99. Since I had upgraded to the paid version of OS Cleaner, 
I was able to have Apple’s billing department put through a request for a 
refund. While OS Cleaner had some nice features that Disk Cleaner Pro does not 
have, in my experience and opinion, it falls short on accessibility. End  of 
experience, end of story.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: Can't send I messages using the I Mac using Big Sur.

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Kawal,
First, I apologize for a message I sent. I did not realize you were trying to 
send a message as opposed to mail. I just tried playing with Messages App and 
went through the Messages Menus. Under Edit, I found an option to send a 
message. The shortcut key to execute this is Command Return. I should find out 
soon if it worked. VO did state “send” when I typed this command.
Best,

Les

> On Jul 10, 2021, at 3:41 PM, 'Kawal Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have tried pressing the enter key after typing my I message on the Mac and 
> it’s not sending but it will send if I do the same on my watch or I phone.
> 
> It was working before the update of Big Sur.
> 
> May be I need to call Apple Accessibility.
> 
> Kawal.
> 
>> On 9 Jul 2021, at 21:57, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> As John mentioned, just press enter, or the return key, and the message will 
>> be sent. No need to add the command key.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 9, 2021, at 2:31 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
>>> 
>>>   If you mean iMessages, I press the enter key alone after typing the 
>>> message.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 9, 2021, at 4:29 PM, 'Kawal Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> No it’s not working.
>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9 Jul 2021, at 21:26, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have always used command shift D. Does that work for you?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2021, at 4:24 PM, 'Kawal Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I can’t send I messages on the mac using Big Sur.  What’s wrong?  Using 
>>>>>> the latest update.  It says press command and enter to send but it won’t.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kawal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
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>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>> 
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Re: Mac cleaner

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
Okay, I have installed Onyx. I did not encounter the problem with no Windows; 
I’m running BigSur. How does one actually run this cleaner? Is there a way to 
monitor progress once started? As was pointed out, VoiceOver identifies many 
options as images. I activate with VO-Space, but I do not know if the app 
actually does a clean-up. I have used the Tab key and VO Arrow keys. Assistance 
appreciated.
Best,

Les

> On Jul 9, 2021, at 9:08 AM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> After installing Onyx, go to your system preferences and make sure it has 
> access under accessibility and full disk access. 
> 
>> On Jul 9, 2021, at 01:22, ernest mccullough > > wrote:
>> 
>> hello:
>> Can anyone recommend an excellent, free Mac cleaner? I am currently using 
>> the Catalina operating system. I used to love the onyx cleaner under El 
>> Capitan, however, when I install it on Catalina, it just says, onyx has no 
>> windows, which is strange to me. Looking forward to hearing some 
>> recommendations.
>> Best,
>> Ernest.
>> 
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Re: Can't send I messages using the I Mac using Big Sur.

[Les Kriegler]

I have always used command shift D. Does that work for you?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2021, at 4:24 PM, 'Kawal Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> I can’t send I messages on the mac using Big Sur.  What’s wrong?  Using the 
> latest update.  It says press command and enter to send but it won’t.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kawal.
> 
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Re: Brave Browser

[Les Kriegler]

It depends. If you wish to install windows, you would be well advised to get 
the Intel check. However, if you don’t plan to install windows, then the Apple 
M one ship is the way to go is it faster and you’ll get more responsiveness 
from your Mac

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Lorie McCloud  wrote:
> 
> I have a choice between the Intel Chip and the Apple Chip. which one do I 
> want for my Mac mini running Catalina?
> 
> thanks.
> Lorie
> 
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Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi John,
Well, when I searched for the Pro version, it came back with one result. Abby 
FineReader for $129.99. The word Pro was not in the title of the App, but that 
must be the correct version.
Best,

Les

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 4:38 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
>   Make sure it’s Abby FineReader Pro. Unless they raised the price, it was 
> $99.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com>
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com <http://www.macfortheblind.com/>
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> I just went into the App Store and Abby FineReader is listed at $129. I 
>> forgot about Prizmo, so will also check that out. I may just stay with 
>> Windows for this task.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 3:58 PM, John Panarese >> <mailto:jpanar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Abby FineReader Pro is only $99 and Prizmo is somewhere around $69.00.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com>
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com <http://www.macfortheblind.com/>
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 3:57 PM, >>> <mailto:skipper8...@gmail.com>> >>> <mailto:skipper8...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Lack of an inexpensive OCR app for the Mac is why I will always use both 
>>>> Windows and Mac.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 3:49 PM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: How to Best Access PDF Files
>>>>  
>>>> Hi Tim, related to accessing PDFs on a Mac, using the PDF pen that you 
>>>> mentioned, can you efficiently and successfully navigate tables and click 
>>>> on links that take you to websites or elsewhere within a PDF document? I 
>>>> am not using a Mac presently. One of the reasons I reluctantly went to 
>>>> windows 10 was because I was unable to find an efficient way of dealing 
>>>> with these kinds of PDF files.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:37 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>  
>>>>> Yes, Adobe is a subscription model.  There’s both PDFPen and PDFPen Pro.  
>>>>> PEFPen is not as feature full, but has the OCR, is very accessible and a 
>>>>> really good package.  No, neither are free, but the Pro version is more 
>>>>> expensive and probably has more features than you might need.  There are 
>>>>> likely other packages out there to do the job, but this package has 
>>>>> worked well for me.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Later…
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>>>> Apple Teacher
>>>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Les Kriegler >>>>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> I did a search for a PDF pen but could not find it. I found PDF pen Pro 
>>>>>> but I don’t think I want

Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi John,
I just went into the App Store and Abby FineReader is listed at $129. I forgot 
about Prizmo, so will also check that out. I may just stay with Windows for 
this task.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 3:58 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
> Abby FineReader Pro is only $99 and Prizmo is somewhere around $69.00.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com>
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com <http://www.macfortheblind.com/>
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 3:57 PM, > <mailto:skipper8...@gmail.com>> > <mailto:skipper8...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Lack of an inexpensive OCR app for the Mac is why I will always use both 
>> Windows and Mac.
>>  
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>> Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 3:49 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: How to Best Access PDF Files
>>  
>> Hi Tim, related to accessing PDFs on a Mac, using the PDF pen that you 
>> mentioned, can you efficiently and successfully navigate tables and click on 
>> links that take you to websites or elsewhere within a PDF document? I am not 
>> using a Mac presently. One of the reasons I reluctantly went to windows 10 
>> was because I was unable to find an efficient way of dealing with these 
>> kinds of PDF files.
>>  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:37 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>>  
>>> Yes, Adobe is a subscription model.  There’s both PDFPen and PDFPen Pro.  
>>> PEFPen is not as feature full, but has the OCR, is very accessible and a 
>>> really good package.  No, neither are free, but the Pro version is more 
>>> expensive and probably has more features than you might need.  There are 
>>> likely other packages out there to do the job, but this package has worked 
>>> well for me.
>>>  
>>> Later…
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Les Kriegler >>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>  
>>>> I did a search for a PDF pen but could not find it. I found PDF pen Pro 
>>>> but I don’t think I want that one. I just need something they can extract 
>>>> text and $80 doesn’t seem like a good idea for that. Can you suggest we 
>>>> are PDF and maybe located? I hope they still offer it.
>>>>  
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 12:13 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>  
>>>>> Yes, acrobat is accessible, although I do find it rather cumbersome to 
>>>>> maneuver through. PDFPen or PDFPen Pro are much more voiceover friendly 
>>>>> and that's much easier to use. Neither are free though.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Later…
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Les Kriegler >>>>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>> Yes, I did enable recognition. It read some gibberish, very little, 
>>>>>> though. I take it Acrobat works on the Mac? On my Windows machine, I 
>>>>>> have the Reader, and I used fJaws to extract text. If I recall, Acrobat 
>>>>>> Pro was a subscription service, but I could be mistaken. PDF Pen is a 
>>>>>> program I am not familiar with, but I’ll check it out. Thanks.
>>>>>> Be

Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

I need to perform OCR on this document, and that need arises from time to time. 
Thanks.
Vest,

Les

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Jürgen Fleger  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> sorry I didn't follow this thread so hopefully I'm not wrong in 
> understanding: Why don't you use CMD a and CMD c to extract text from PDFS? 
> Or do you need an OCR? 
> There was once a software called something PDFIFY for this task. It was free. 
> All the best
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
> 
>> Am 02.07.2021 um 18:26 schrieb Les Kriegler :
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> 
>> I did a search for a PDF pen but could not find it. I found PDF pen Pro but 
>> I don’t think I want that one. I just need something they can extract text 
>> and $80 doesn’t seem like a good idea for that. Can you suggest we are PDF 
>> and maybe located? I hope they still offer it.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 12:13 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Yes, acrobat is accessible, although I do find it rather cumbersome to 
>>> maneuver through. PDFPen or PDFPen Pro are much more voiceover friendly and 
>>> that's much easier to use. Neither are free though.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>> Yes, I did enable recognition. It read some gibberish, very little, 
>>>> though. I take it Acrobat works on the Mac? On my Windows machine, I have 
>>>> the Reader, and I used fJaws to extract text. If I recall, Acrobat Pro was 
>>>> a subscription service, but I could be mistaken. PDF Pen is a program I am 
>>>> not familiar with, but I’ll check it out. Thanks.
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:02 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Did you make sure that VoiceOver Recognition was enabled within the VO 
>>>>> Utility?  If that is enabled, you should, at least, get VoiceOver to 
>>>>> announce that it is a document with text on it.  Otherwise, apps like 
>>>>> Acrobat DC or PDFPen can do the OCR for you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Later…
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>>>> Apple Teacher
>>>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 6:17 AM, Les Kriegler >>>>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>> I followed your instructions. When I invoked the text recognition 
>>>>>> command, it reported no image description available. Was the Full N an 
>>>>>> app? Does this mean I can perform OCR on a pdf as can be done with 
>>>>>> Acrobat? Actually, in Windows, I used the Jaws facility to extract text 
>>>>>> that was identified as an empty document. My work space may not 
>>>>>> accommodate a scanner, so I would like to use software in these 
>>>>>> instances. Thanks.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Les
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 4:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>>> >>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Normally, you navigate to the Document area, interact with it, then if 
>>>>>>> it has multiple pages, they will be listed.  Interact with the page you 
>>>>>>> wish to read and the text will be read by VO.  If it requires OCR, you 
>>>>>>> can try pressing VO-shift-l to see if VO will read it to you.  If 
>>>>>>> VO-shift-l does not work, first make sure that VoiceOver Recognition is 
>>>>>>> enabled in the VoiceOver Utility, then try again.  If it still doesn’t 
>>>>>>> work for you, you may need to use full on OCR like in Acrobat DC.

Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

I did a search for a PDF pen but could not find it. I found PDF pen Pro but I 
don’t think I want that one. I just need something they can extract text and 
$80 doesn’t seem like a good idea for that. Can you suggest we are PDF and 
maybe located? I hope they still offer it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 12:13 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Yes, acrobat is accessible, although I do find it rather cumbersome to 
> maneuver through. PDFPen or PDFPen Pro are much more voiceover friendly and 
> that's much easier to use. Neither are free though.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> Yes, I did enable recognition. It read some gibberish, very little, though. 
>> I take it Acrobat works on the Mac? On my Windows machine, I have the 
>> Reader, and I used fJaws to extract text. If I recall, Acrobat Pro was a 
>> subscription service, but I could be mistaken. PDF Pen is a program I am not 
>> familiar with, but I’ll check it out. Thanks.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:02 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Did you make sure that VoiceOver Recognition was enabled within the VO 
>>> Utility?  If that is enabled, you should, at least, get VoiceOver to 
>>> announce that it is a document with text on it.  Otherwise, apps like 
>>> Acrobat DC or PDFPen can do the OCR for you.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 6:17 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>> I followed your instructions. When I invoked the text recognition command, 
>>>> it reported no image description available. Was the Full N an app? Does 
>>>> this mean I can perform OCR on a pdf as can be done with Acrobat? 
>>>> Actually, in Windows, I used the Jaws facility to extract text that was 
>>>> identified as an empty document. My work space may not accommodate a 
>>>> scanner, so I would like to use software in these instances. Thanks.
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 4:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Normally, you navigate to the Document area, interact with it, then if it 
>>>>> has multiple pages, they will be listed.  Interact with the page you wish 
>>>>> to read and the text will be read by VO.  If it requires OCR, you can try 
>>>>> pressing VO-shift-l to see if VO will read it to you.  If VO-shift-l does 
>>>>> not work, first make sure that VoiceOver Recognition is enabled in the 
>>>>> VoiceOver Utility, then try again.  If it still doesn’t work for you, you 
>>>>> may need to use full on OCR like in Acrobat DC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Later…
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>>>> Apple Teacher
>>>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>> I just received my first pdf file. I loaded it into Preview, but could 
>>>>>> not figure out how to access the text. Also, if it is an image, is there 
>>>>>> a way I can perform OCR on it without attaching a scanner? Is there a 
>>>>>> version of Acrobat Reader for the Mac which is worth accessing? Thank 
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Les
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>>>> owner

Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
Yes, I did enable recognition. It read some gibberish, very little, though. I 
take it Acrobat works on the Mac? On my Windows machine, I have the Reader, and 
I used fJaws to extract text. If I recall, Acrobat Pro was a subscription 
service, but I could be mistaken. PDF Pen is a program I am not familiar with, 
but I’ll check it out. Thanks.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:02 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did you make sure that VoiceOver Recognition was enabled within the VO 
> Utility?  If that is enabled, you should, at least, get VoiceOver to announce 
> that it is a document with text on it.  Otherwise, apps like Acrobat DC or 
> PDFPen can do the OCR for you.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 6:17 AM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> I followed your instructions. When I invoked the text recognition command, 
>> it reported no image description available. Was the Full N an app? Does this 
>> mean I can perform OCR on a pdf as can be done with Acrobat? Actually, in 
>> Windows, I used the Jaws facility to extract text that was identified as an 
>> empty document. My work space may not accommodate a scanner, so I would like 
>> to use software in these instances. Thanks.
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 4:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Normally, you navigate to the Document area, interact with it, then if it 
>>> has multiple pages, they will be listed.  Interact with the page you wish 
>>> to read and the text will be read by VO.  If it requires OCR, you can try 
>>> pressing VO-shift-l to see if VO will read it to you.  If VO-shift-l does 
>>> not work, first make sure that VoiceOver Recognition is enabled in the 
>>> VoiceOver Utility, then try again.  If it still doesn’t work for you, you 
>>> may need to use full on OCR like in Acrobat DC.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Les Kriegler >>> <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I just received my first pdf file. I loaded it into Preview, but could not 
>>>> figure out how to access the text. Also, if it is an image, is there a way 
>>>> I can perform OCR on it without attaching a scanner? Is there a version of 
>>>> Acrobat Reader for the Mac which is worth accessing? Thank you.
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Les
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
>>>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>> 
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
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>>>>  
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/8FE43E71

Re: How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,
I followed your instructions. When I invoked the text recognition command, it 
reported no image description available. Was the Full N an app? Does this mean 
I can perform OCR on a pdf as can be done with Acrobat? Actually, in Windows, I 
used the Jaws facility to extract text that was identified as an empty 
document. My work space may not accommodate a scanner, so I would like to use 
software in these instances. Thanks.
Best,

Les

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 4:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Normally, you navigate to the Document area, interact with it, then if it has 
> multiple pages, they will be listed.  Interact with the page you wish to read 
> and the text will be read by VO.  If it requires OCR, you can try pressing 
> VO-shift-l to see if VO will read it to you.  If VO-shift-l does not work, 
> first make sure that VoiceOver Recognition is enabled in the VoiceOver 
> Utility, then try again.  If it still doesn’t work for you, you may need to 
> use full on OCR like in Acrobat DC.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jul 1, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> I just received my first pdf file. I loaded it into Preview, but could not 
>> figure out how to access the text. Also, if it is an image, is there a way I 
>> can perform OCR on it without attaching a scanner? Is there a version of 
>> Acrobat Reader for the Mac which is worth accessing? Thank you.
>> Best,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
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> 
> 
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How to Best Access PDF Files

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I just received my first pdf file. I loaded it into Preview, but could not 
figure out how to access the text. Also, if it is an image, is there a way I 
can perform OCR on it without attaching a scanner? Is there a version of 
Acrobat Reader for the Mac which is worth accessing? Thank you.
Best,

Les

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Re: Mail Conversations

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim, That is exactly what happened. All is back to normal. Thanks.
Les

> On Jun 25, 2021, at 11:17 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It sounds like you may have QuickNav turned on.  To toggle QuickNav on/off, 
> press the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2021, at 5:35 AM, Les Kriegler > <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> Until this morning, I was able to expand conversations with right arrow and 
>> close them with left arrow. For some reason, left and right arrows now move 
>> me to other messages when I try to expand a conversation. Is there a way to 
>> go back to default settings? If not, is there another way to resolve this 
>> behavior? Thanks.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>> -- 
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>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> 
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>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>> 
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
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> 
> 
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Mail Conversations

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
Until this morning, I was able to expand conversations with right arrow and 
close them with left arrow. For some reason, left and right arrows now move me 
to other messages when I try to expand a conversation. Is there a way to go 
back to default settings? If not, is there another way to resolve this 
behavior? Thanks.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: Comparing Mac Mini Models

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Frank,
It depends on how you wish to use your machine. The M1 chip delivers superior 
performance over Intel’s chips. I say this because I have used a Windows-based 
machine with a similar configuration and I can see the difference. However, if 
you wish to run Windows, it will be far easier to do so with an Intel-based 
model.
Best,

Les
> On Jun 19, 2021, at 4:11 AM, Frank Ventura  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I was looking at the new Mac Mini models. Does anyone have any recent 
> experience or opinions on the current offerings? The base model uses the new 
> M1 processor. However, Apple also offers i5 and i7 processor models for some 
> additional cost. How does each model compare permanence-wise? at the M1 
> option is the least expensive but does that mean less performance? What about 
> disk I/O? Is there any noticeable difference in the M1 architecture?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Frank Ventura
> 
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Re: App Store Notifications

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Brad,
Okay, that is really helpful. Every day I am learning something new about the 
Mac. Keeps my brain active and healthy!
Best,

Les

> On Jun 17, 2021, at 5:33 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Go to your AppStore app on your Mac, press CMD + NumberRow 8, to select 
> Updates.
> Here you can see what apps have been recently updated.
> 
> Next time you get a notification that updates are available, you can go to 
> the Updates section of the AppStore app, and see what updates are pending 
> before you install them.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Jun 17, 2021, at 16:16, Les Kriegler  <mailto:kriegle...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> I received a notification that updates were available for my Mac. I tried 
> navigating with VO arrow keys, but I could not locate anything to activate. 
> So I invoked a menu with VO Command Space and chose install. I could not 
> determine what updates I was receiving, nor could I view the download 
> progress. The only thing I heard referred to Discovery Collections. Can 
> someone recommend how to proceed and hopefully get access to information on 
> these updates? Thanks for the assist.
> Best Regards,
> 
> Les
> 
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App Store Notifications

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I received a notification that updates were available for my Mac. I tried 
navigating with VO arrow keys, but I could not locate anything to activate. So 
I invoked a menu with VO Command Space and chose install. I could not determine 
what updates I was receiving, nor could I view the download progress. The only 
thing I heard referred to Discovery Collections. Can someone recommend how to 
proceed and hopefully get access to information on these updates? Thanks for 
the assist.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: Time machine on M1 Mac?

[Les Kriegler]

While we are on the subject of backups, has anyone used Carbon Copy Cloner? Are 
there advantages, other than cost, for one over the other?
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jun 15, 2021, at 7:30 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna,
> 
> Actually, it’s just not in the Extras menu by default.  You can add it to the 
> Extras menu either by checking the box in the Time Machine pane in System 
> Prefs, or in the Dock & Menus pane of System Prefs.  BTW, the Time Machine 
> app in the Applications folder has always behaved in the manner you 
> explained.  When going into Time Machine via the app, that is the alternate 
> way of getting there.  That is, alternate to the Time Machine menu and 
> selecting “Enter Time Machine”.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 15, 2021, at 5:01 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Sure. First, they moved Time Machine. It’s no longer in the Extras Menu.  
>> The tricky part is that you can access it in the Applications folder, but 
>> when I did that, the only option I had was to restore. However, when I 
>> accessed it from System Prefs, I was able to set up Time Machine, Configure 
>> the disk, and Back up my Mac.  So just be sure to access it from System 
>> Prefs, and you should be good to go.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>>> On Jun 15, 2021, at 5:55 PM, Agent086b >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> could you please tell us how you fixed the problem. I will be purchasing an 
>>> M1 Mac later in the year and any info will help.
>>> Max.
>>> 
 On 16 Jun 2021, at 8:33 am, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
 mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
 wrote:
 
 Never mind, got it. Sorry to clutter the list.
 Cheers,
 Donna
 
> On Jun 15, 2021, at 5:26 PM, Donna Goodin  > wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I’ve finally gotten to the point where I’m ready to back up my M1 Mac.  
> But I have discovered that time machine no longer appears in my Extras 
> menu. I found it in the Apps folder, but I only seem to have the option 
> to Restore, not to backup.  What’s the deal?  How are we supposed to back 
> up the new Macs?
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
 
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Re: SOS can't hear voiceover on my new macbook air

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Andrew,
I am sorry you have had to go through this experience. I have a couple of 
suggestions when you get your replacement machine. By default, the function 
keys control Media features. Function Key 11 and Function key 12 control 
volume. So that’s a quick way to decrease or increase volume. I actually prefer 
this method over using the VO keys, as I find I get louder volume using the 
function keys. I recently learned about a Bluetooth/USB keyboard. It’s the 
Logitech K860. It has command, control and option keys on both sides. I have 
been using the Crossover move, and that’s gotten annoying in a hurry. The Caps 
Lock Key can also be used for the VO keys. What separates this keyboard is that 
to the right of the F12 key is a toggle key. This toggles the function keys 
between Media and standard function keys. In my opinion, that’s a game changer, 
as I can have the best of both worlds by using one key as the Function Key 
toggle Hopefully, you will have a smoother transition when you get your 
replacement unit. Best of luck.
Best Regards,

Les

> On Jun 15, 2021, at 4:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think so.  I too thought about this when I got stuck having migrated 
> my data from the previous macbook air on which I used Alex whereas voiceover 
> always defaults to uK Daniel as per location.  However it was taking so long, 
> I thought it couldn’t have been the case.  But maybe…. Anyway, it’s too late 
> now as everything went pear-shaped.  I was on the phone with 4 different 
> Apple support people and they couldn’t get the macbook to erase the volume in 
> order to reinstall macos Big Sur.  In the end all was lost and volumes 
> disappeared.  So I’m sending it back to Apple to be replaced.  Once the 
> replacement’s arrived, I will set it up as new and won’t migrate any data.  I 
> will try and do it manually.  I’m exhausted. :)
> 
> Andrew
>> On 14 Jun 2021, at 23:17, Jonathan C. Cohn > > wrote:
>> 
>> I’m wondering, what voice are you using for voiceover? Were using one that 
>> had to be downloaded?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 14, 2021, at 4:54 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Tim, I will ask them to help. \they’re are not terribly computer 
>>> savvy so it makes things hard.  I think I may have to reinstall the 
>>> operating system.  How do I get into recovery partition and erase the drive 
>>> to reinstall?  Can I do this without sight on new macbook air?  Honestly, 
>>> having used a mac computer for 15 years, all I could do now is cry. I’m so 
>>> angry.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your swift response.
>>> 
>>> Andrew 
 On 14 Jun 2021, at 21:47, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
 mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
 wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 It is the same command.   You can use either cmd-f5, or hold down the cmd 
 key and triple press the power button/fingerprint sensor.
 
 If you have a sighted person around, have them check if audio is muted in 
 the VoiceOver Utility under the Sound category.  Do you hear any noise at 
 all when you attempt to turn on VoiceOver?
 
 I have heard of someone else having issues with their M1 MacBook Air, but 
 that was after setup was complete, and I don’t believe that VoiceOver was 
 behaving like you’ve explained.
 
 I have both an M1 MacBook Air and an M1 MacBook Pro here and have not had 
 anything similar happen to me.
 
 Later…
 
 
 Tim Kilburn
 Jamf Certified Tech
 Apple Professional Learning Specialist
 Apple Teacher
 (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
 Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
> On Jun 14, 2021, at 2:29 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Just set up my new silicon macbook air.  Everything went well, I managed 
> to migrate my info from old macbook air and when the restart happened I 
> can’t hear voiceover at all.  It’s not muted, it is ticked as the sighted 
> person trying to help me says but I can’t hear speech. I’m just desperate 
> now.  Two hours of trying to fix this & I can’t have speech. Why? Could I 
> just clarify: is there a new shortcut key combination for starting 
> voiceover on silicon macbook air? Does command+f5 still work?  I am 
> hating this business now.  Surely these things should work?
> 
> Andrew 
> 
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Re: A Basic Question

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Donna,
Thanks. That’s easy enough! Have a good day.
Best,

Les

> On Jun 15, 2021, at 2:26 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Les,
> 
> You can access it from the dock, VO-D.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Jun 15, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> I am away and do not have access to my reference material. How does one 
>> access the Trash Folder on the Mac? I wish to delete a few files that I sent 
>> there. Thanks.
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Les
>> 
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A Basic Question

[Les Kriegler]

Hi All,
I am away and do not have access to my reference material. How does one access 
the Trash Folder on the Mac? I wish to delete a few files that I sent there. 
Thanks.
Best Regards,

Les

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Re: AirPods max question.

[Les Kriegler]

Actually, there is. I checked it out with mine last evening.

> On Jun 12, 2021, at 12:36 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> I guds there’s a similar for the AirPods max which is over ear.
> Thanks Jonathan.
> /A
> 
>> 11 juni 2021 kl. 21:01 skrev Jonathan Cohn > >:
>> 
>> For theAirPods, there is an option:   Automatic In-Ear Detection.
>> Open bluetooth settings on your Mac, and then while the Max is connected, 
>> there should be an options button. Press this and hopefully you will find 
>> what you are looking for.
>> Jonathan
>> 
>>  Best wishes,
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2021, at 14:48, Anders Holmberg >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> When you remove your AirPods Max from your head the sound stops.
>>> Can this be adjusted somewhere?
>>> Does is has to be this way.
>>> This is on a MacBook Air With big sure.
>>> /A
>>> 
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Re: Login window keeps popping up!

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

Thanks very much for this information. Score one for the M1. I will have to try 
that sometime. Definitely a great step forward.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2021, at 11:40 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is indeed the case.  I tested the procedure on an M1 MacBook Air.
> 
> • hold down the power button through the startup chime plus an additional 8 
> seconds or so.
> • cmd-f5 to turn on VO.
> • interact with the Startup Options window.
> • interact with the Macintosh HD area.
> • hold down the shift eky to change the “Continue" to “Continue in Safe Mode” 
> and press return.
> 
> The M1 Mac will think about it, then restart.  Wait a bit, then press cmd-f5, 
> or triple-press the power button while holding down the cmd key on an M1 MBP, 
> to turn on VoiceOver.  If the Login screen is visible, VO will announce Safe 
> Boot as the first item in the Login window.
> 
> This is indeed exciting.  As a VO user, in the past, the Boot Picker and Safe 
> Mode were not accessible to VO users, but you can now access the Boot Picker, 
> Safe Boot mode, as well as previously accessible Recovery mode features.  
> Great news.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 9, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Matthew Janusauskas  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> It’s my pleasure Tim. It’s great to see that it appears Apple has improved 
>> the accessibility of the process significantly.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 9, 2021, at 4:00 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Yes, I guess that it is possible.  The M1 architecture is different than 
>>> that of the Intel and thus they may have improved that functionality.  
>>> Thanks for the heads-up, I’ll look into using VO in Safe mode on one of the 
>>> M1’s here.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
 On Jun 9, 2021, at 2:41 PM, Matthew Janusauskas  
 wrote:
 
 Hi Tim,
 
 Is it possible that safe mode functions differently on M1 machines? I 
 followed the steps I found via Google search that involved booting to the 
 startup / recovery menu, selecting the normal startup drive and holding 
 down the Shift key to make the Continue button change to continue in safe 
 mode. The system then started with what seemed to be a minimal state 
 without any usual startup apps etc. Audio and VoiceOver was fully 
 functional.
 
 Matthew
 
 
> On Jun 9, 2021, at 9:36 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Safe mode is not accessible to VO so I wouldn’t go there.  The values are 
> definitely configurable in the regular GUI interface.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 9, 2021, at 5:40 AM, Caitlyn Furness  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Can you outline the steps to boot up into safe mode and then change the 
>> sleep values, please?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Cait
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 8, 2021, at 11:37 PM, Matthew Janusauskas 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The only way I was able to change the display sleep value in battery 
>>> preferences and get it to stick was to boot into safe mode and do it 
>>> from there. I’ve never had to do that before. 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:19 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
  wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 There usually is not a lock in this pane, but maybe take a look down 
 near the bottom of this pane and see if there’s the lock to unlock in 
 order to make changes.
 
 Later…
 
 
 Tim Kilburn
 Jamf Certified Tech
 Apple Professional Learning Specialist
 Apple Teacher
 (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
 Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
> On Jun 8, 2021, at 3:10 PM, Matthew Janusauskas 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation of the bug and advice on this. I’ve sent 
> a report via Feedback Assistant.
> Just now when trying to follow your suggestions I’m finding the 
> controls in the battery preferences all to be dimmed out. A restart 
> didn’t make a difference either. Any other suggestions to try?
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
>> On Jun 7, 2021, at 12:13 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Yes, that is a bug.  

Re: touch ID location on latest macbook air

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Tim,

Thank you very much for your comments. Yes, I just touch it. No need to press 
on it. Attach it and it go right to the desktop.
Best regards,
Les

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 9, 2021, at 4:07 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Great explanation Les.  The only thing that I’d add, is that it only requires 
> a touch on the button, no need to press on it.  If you wish to add a second 
> finger, go to System Preferences, Touch ID.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Jun 9, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Les Kriegler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>> You will find the touch ID button at the very top right corner of the 
>> MacBook Air. I think I’ll be referred to it as the power button which it 
>> might be, but I haven’t had to use that button to start the machine. 
>> Basically what happens is when you lift the lid you hear the start of sound 
>> and then you have to enter your password. If on the other hand you put the 
>> lid down and then lift it up, you only need to touch that top right corner 
>> and you will be logged in again. It’s very slick. Let me know if you have 
>> further questions.
>> Best regards,
>> Les
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 9, 2021, at 3:41 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> It sounds naive to ask but where would i find touch ID on latest macbook 
>>> air? Is it readily identifiable? I’ve searched on the internet but found no 
>>> indication as to where you put your finger for your print to be read.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
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