Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Chris, Give her a set of examples when to use the interaction feature. Such as text pad since it is a simple app. Break it down in steps and give this to her. More then one example would be useful from different apps. Sean On 05/06/2012, at 11:30 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard commander, trackpad commander
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
HI again Chris, It's OK to tell it like it is, in a professional environment. In fact, having people pay for my opinion the last few years has forced me to take this more seriously and made me feel responsible to actually tell it like it is. It's all in your approach. How you say things is just as important as what you say, most especially when you have to deliver bad news or help some one to make an adjustment that they are disinclined to make. I take my clients to task when they need it. When it comes to practice or hardware maintenance or any other concern that is going to impact their ability to become successful, I can lay it all out there for them and not wind up fired. Have fun, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-04, at 9:30 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi Chris You may have already thought of this, but have you thought about asking her why she's not practicing? She may be afraid that she's going to break her computer if you're not fair to help her. She may also have other reasons that she's not telling. After all, she's not lying to you. She could say that she was practicing, even when she was not. Regards Gigi Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then Iwill sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
She did great last night, so let's just hope the pattern continues. Chris. - Original Message - From: Gigi To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Cc: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:21 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris You may have already thought of this, but have you thought about asking her why she's not practicing? She may be afraid that she's going to break her computer if you're not fair to help her. She may also have other reasons that she's not telling. After all, she's not lying to you. She could say that she was practicing, even when she was not. Regards Gigi Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
I'm fairly new to the Mac world but I had been exposed to the concept of interacting from previous podcasts and discussions. So I didn't really have that much trouble with the concept of interacting. But that doesn't help your student. What I learned concerning interacting is when using the VO arrow keys, I could sail right past a group of radio buttons, table, list of objects or whatever. Once I would interact with any of those groups, then I could see the insides so to speak. Try the iTunes interface for example. Lots of interaction and uninteraction is necessary to get around there. But then again, this might blow her away if brought in too soon. I have seen instances where one can navigate around in tables without interacting with them but some of the overall behavior is affected. these differences are hard to explain for sure. that's where Veronica's suggestion of just diving in and trying with and without interacting to observe the differences. As frustrating as this might be to many people, the removal of interacting would have disasterous consequences to VO as we currently know it. Interacting with groups in Groups mode with Safari is an excellent concept when a website lends itself to it well. I totally agree with you concerning practice. She really needs to find a good and practical use for the mac to get interested in trying to use it. I have Linux and Windows at home and when I got the mac, I took it up more slowly than I originally expected because it was always easier to go and use my Linux box to do a given task. I finally had to force myself to try and use a Mac solution for those same tasks to really get it down and move on. Now I feel comfortable doing these tasks on either platform smoothly. Maybe have her try and read some email or go to her favorite websites with the mac instead of her current methods. Maybe practical use might be more effective than a practice script. Just some ideas here. On 6/5/12, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: She did great last night, so let's just hope the pattern continues. Chris. - Original Message - From: Gigi To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Cc: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:21 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris You may have already thought of this, but have you thought about asking her why she's not practicing? She may be afraid that she's going to break her computer if you're not fair to help her. She may also have other reasons that she's not telling. After all, she's not lying to you. She could say that she was practicing, even when she was not. Regards Gigi Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi All. I thought I'd tell you my experience of learning Voice Over and this might be able to help Chris to understand as this is what his pupil may be feeling, I do not know. I got my Mac Book Pro two years ago or just over when I was in the USA for a week. At first, I was excited to get the Mac and the person who I was with who had also got the same model as me, didn't think I would get the model I was shown. Now bearing in mind, I was there for a week! I remember him telling me to do the Voice Over tutorial. When he left the room, I started doing it and I kept thinking is this all? I'm sure I'm doing things wrong as I kept thinking there was much more to it. Now when he came back he asked me if I'd done it and I remember saying in a small voice yes but I think I've done it wrong. Then he'd sit down with me and start reading the manual to me which he had in braille and each time it came to interacting, I could not grasp it. In fact when we ever talked about interacting, I would get miserable as I thought I'd never get this bearing in mind I was with this person for a week. He would give me a hard time because I could not grasp this concept. He would make me sit and practice and would go through the manual and oh I remember I wanted to use windows when things got too complicated. He would tell me that sighted people would read across the screen rather than doing the jaws traditional way as never seeing, I did not know how sighted people read. I am not very good with Voice Over and can only use the menus as I still can't grasp the short cuts. I just do the best I can and do not worry too much as long as I can grasp what I need to do. I even had to listen to how windows was installed via Fusion or I would have not dreamed of installing windows as I remember being amazed. I do not know how I learned what I did in a week but I was scared to go home alone and not want to use the Mac in case I broke it. But now two years later, I am using the Mac comfortable with what I know. Kawal. On 5 Jun 2012, at 16:17, Steve Holmes wrote: I'm fairly new to the Mac world but I had been exposed to the concept of interacting from previous podcasts and discussions. So I didn't really have that much trouble with the concept of interacting. But that doesn't help your student. What I learned concerning interacting is when using the VO arrow keys, I could sail right past a group of radio buttons, table, list of objects or whatever. Once I would interact with any of those groups, then I could see the insides so to speak. Try the iTunes interface for example. Lots of interaction and uninteraction is necessary to get around there. But then again, this might blow her away if brought in too soon. I have seen instances where one can navigate around in tables without interacting with them but some of the overall behavior is affected. these differences are hard to explain for sure. that's where Veronica's suggestion of just diving in and trying with and without interacting to observe the differences. As frustrating as this might be to many people, the removal of interacting would have disasterous consequences to VO as we currently know it. Interacting with groups in Groups mode with Safari is an excellent concept when a website lends itself to it well. I totally agree with you concerning practice. She really needs to find a good and practical use for the mac to get interested in trying to use it. I have Linux and Windows at home and when I got the mac, I took it up more slowly than I originally expected because it was always easier to go and use my Linux box to do a given task. I finally had to force myself to try and use a Mac solution for those same tasks to really get it down and move on. Now I feel comfortable doing these tasks on either platform smoothly. Maybe have her try and read some email or go to her favorite websites with the mac instead of her current methods. Maybe practical use might be more effective than a practice script. Just some ideas here. On 6/5/12, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: She did great last night, so let's just hope the pattern continues. Chris. - Original Message - From: Gigi To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Cc: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:21 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris You may have already thought of this, but have you thought about asking her why she's not practicing? She may be afraid that she's going to break her computer if you're not fair to help her. She may also have other reasons that she's not telling. After all, she's not lying to you. She could say that she was practicing, even when she was not. Regards Gigi Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Cheree Heppe here: Sometimes, theory is less effective than task based, hands on examples. Regards, Cheree Heppe Sent from my iPhone On 03/06/2012, at 20:47, Chris Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard commander, trackpad commander, or for that mind, even quick nap, she's going to need to know the concept of what it means to interact. There's just no other way around it. she does not have any learning disabilities, so it kind of surprises me that all of my other students catch on to this pretty quickly, yet she is not. I have asked her specifically to tell me what she does not understand about the concept, however she is not able to articulate what exactly it is that she does not understand about the concept. I think a lot of it too, is the fact that she is barely even practicing. I give her certain exercises to try throughout the day, and every time I do, next time we get together, I asked her if she practiced, and she very truthfully tells me know. I have had absolutely nothing to practice with, even though she is fully aware that I gave her an assignment. I do not know how she ever is going to learn if she keeps not practicing. I understand her getting frustrated, but when I am genuinely trying to help her in any way form or shape that I can, I would expect for her to at least have enough respect to put forth a bit of effort. I just wonder how much of this is that she really doesn't understand, versus how much of it is she really seriously is just not trying. I do not want to be rude to her, however when I see that she is making no progress at all, and that it's obvious by her admission, that she is not practicing, what the hell more am I supposed to do? pardon the language, but this is extremely frustrating. what do you all who are also trainers do when you have students like this, is simply either one do not get the concept of something, or simply click do not try and it's very obvious that they are illustrating their lack of effort. this student has had her state lend her a MacBook for three weeks. This means she only has that amount of time to learn. We are extremely early in the three-week process, however, I won't hurt to get the most out of this that she possibly can. most of the things that we already have learned, she is also forgetting almost constantly. No, I do not expect for her to learn all of these things in one night, absolutely not! however, I know that she would be remembering way more than she is if she were willing to sit down for at least 15 minutes a day in practice. She does not seem to even be given me that much. what would be the best thing to do? I do not want to be rude to her, but I also need to let her know I'm very certain terms, but I cannot continue this training with her, if she is not going to do her part. my responsibility is to train and be patient, her responsibility is to practice. maybe I am very strict of a teacher, but I know her potential. I know that she can get this. She
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi Chris I agree with Veronica here. I'm a new Mac user and don't really get interacting either. But I'm learning by trial and error, and not stressing if I don't understand the concept. Your ring binder analogy and the zoom camera one actually really helped me, so thanks for those. I do know that, because I have my tab key set to automatically interact, I'm possibly interacting with things more than I realise. Some purists might say I shouldn't have my tab key set that way, because I should know what I'm interacting with, but it makes it feel a little more like Windows sometimes and it helps me get the job done. I don't probably care enough to always know when I am, and am not interacting. I suggest a trial and error approach with the student. Get her to accomplish some simple tasks like opening and saving a file, writing and sending an email. If she can do that, or whatever else she wants to do, the conceptual stuff may follow later. I never really got many of the Jaws concepts either re mouse, invisible and pc cursor. But I knew when I needed to try the pc cursor, and how to tether the two, to achieve what I needed. Good luck. Lisette On 4/06/2012, at 4:31 PM, Veronica Elsea wrote: Hi there! Well, I am not a trainer, but I thought I'd describe my difficulties understanding the interactive concept and see if it helps at all. I do understand your bookshelf analogy except for one thing. If I'm in the finder and come upon a folder name, I just issue an open command to go into it. If I don't want to open the folder, I just hit the arrow key to move to the next folder title. So, I didn't have to do anything there with VoiceOver. I'm really baffled by things like sometimes having to interact with a table and sometimes just arrowing down, as I do in the messages table in mail. So, what did I finally do for me? Gave up on trying to get the concept. grin. I did better with rote learning. Interact here. Don't interact here. Try something and if it doesn't work, try interacting. I can't think of anything in the Windows screen-reader world that is like this. So the best phrase I was able to offer myself was this, some things just don't happen automatically in VoiceOver and you have to tell VoiceOver what you want it to look at. That's the only thing that allowed me to deal with what seems like inconsistencies in when one does or does not need to interact with something. It is kind of a goofy thing and I can see why some people would struggle. And you're right. The only real answer is practice, trial and error. See if it helps to tell your student that other people have trouble figuring this out too and we all just try things together. Maybe if your student can then relax a bit about it, not getting to that brain ache place trying to understand something, he or she may start practicing again. I know I've given myself breaks, just to let my own frustration wind down. And good for you for continuing to try to reach this person. Keep it up. grin. Hope this helps. Veronica At 09:10 PM 6/3/2012, you wrote: The way I explain VoiceOver's interacting with an object or region is to think of what a sighted person does with their eyes when they want to focus in on a small region of the screen. They squint their eyes a bit and narrow their gaze and focus in on a region of the screen that might have small details. It's also akin (sort of) to the zoom feature of a camera; when in zoom mode, you can only see certain elements at a time, but you can see great detail. HTH. • Mark BurningHawk Baxter • AIM, Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 • MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com • My home page: • http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. Watch and hear Veronica Elsea's Prayer for a Soldier at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFoIhWrBHFI Then learn about Music CDs that will impact and entertain you forever! http://www.laurelcreekmusic.com Veronica Elsea, Owner Laurel Creek Music Designs Santa Cruz, California 831-429-6407 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi there You know, sometimes the only way you can explain the concept is to say don't worry about it, just do it. Now I say that because I've had a few concepts I didn't get and I just said okay I'll just do it. But the reason I did not have trouble with the interacting concept is that I finally understood that if you want to restrict your voiceover cursor then you do interacting. In other words, you may explain to her that if you don't want to pay attention to anything else on the screen you restrict the voiceover cursor Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2012, at 3:50 AM, Lisette wesseling lisettewessel...@gmail.com wrote: This message cannot be displayed because of the way it is formatted. Ask the sender to send it again using a different format or email program. text/plain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard commander, trackpad commander, or for that mind, even quick nap, she's going to need to know the concept of what it means to interact. There's just no other way around it. she does not have any learning disabilities, so it kind of surprises me that all of my other students catch on to this pretty quickly, yet she is not. I have asked her specifically to tell me what she does not understand about the concept, however she is not able to articulate what exactly it is that she does not understand about the concept. I think a lot of it too, is the fact that she is barely even practicing. I give her certain exercises to try throughout the day, and every time I do, next time we get together, I asked her if she practiced, and she very truthfully tells me know. I have had absolutely nothing to practice with, even though she is fully aware that I gave her an assignment. I do not know how she ever is going to learn if she keeps not practicing. I understand her
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Actually, this was a hard thing for me to learn also. So I just said to myself, When in doubt, interact. Teach her what the key strokes are to get in and out and tell her to play. It is so simple when it finally clicks. On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:10 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: The way I explain VoiceOver's interacting with an object or region is to think of what a sighted person does with their eyes when they want to focus in on a small region of the screen. They squint their eyes a bit and narrow their gaze and focus in on a region of the screen that might have small details. It's also akin (sort of) to the zoom feature of a camera; when in zoom mode, you can only see certain elements at a time, but you can see great detail. HTH. • Mark BurningHawk Baxter • AIM, Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 • MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com • My home page: • http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
This is all true. Sometimes, no matter what you do, explaining the theory and coming up with a bunch of analogies simply does not get the proverbial light switch to come on. It has nothing to do with the trainer or the student's capabilities. There are just concepts that are difficult for some folks to truly grasp. You can describe interacting as drilling into something, taking a closer look, pulling the curtains back and stepping closer to a window to look at something outside ... I have found that this area is one that more than a few people have difficulty dealing with, especially when it comes to understanding when one needs to interact and when it is not necessary. To be honest, as has been said, you just have to teach the steps and process itself. If the concept is not getting through, there is nothing you can do except allow time and practice to, hopefully, turn the light on. I have found that folks will eventually catch on and when the switch flicks on, their confidence grows quickly in using the Mac. it was certainly a foreign concept to me when I was learning the Mac, but you also have to put into perspective as far as the process for learning ANY new task, whether it was when they were learning Windows, learning Braille, how to play an instrument whatever you can tie it to. Things just sometimes take time and repeated use to sink in. Take Care John Panarese jpanar...@gmail.com On Jun 4, 2012, at 7:18 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I try to refrane. Chris. - Original Message - From: erik burggraaf To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your pain. To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. Hope this helps, Erik Burggraaf Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard commander, trackpad commander, or for that mind, even quick nap, she's going to need to know the concept of what it means to interact. There's just no other way around it. she does not have any learning disabilities, so it kind of surprises me that all of my other students catch on to this pretty quickly, yet she is not. I have asked her specifically to tell me
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
HI. i find interacting for me was learned through trial and error. but then i am a very hands on person. after all your student can't hurt anything by interacting with stuff and seeing what happens. just a thought. Blessings! Maria Joe and loving guide Karly. Email/ I Message: fb bubbygirl1...@gmail.com twitter: bubbygirl skype: bubbygirl1972 bubbygirl1...@gmail.com On 04/06/2012, at 1:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: okay… I really could use you awls help. I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words when I said this work: okay, now you really lost me! I am pretty much out of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard commander, trackpad commander, or for that mind, even quick nap, she's going to need to know the concept of what it means to interact. There's just no other way around it. she does not have any learning disabilities, so it kind of surprises me that all of my other students catch on to this pretty quickly, yet she is not. I have asked her specifically to tell me what she does not understand about the concept, however she is not able to articulate what exactly it is that she does not understand about the concept. I think a lot of it too, is the fact that she is barely even practicing. I give her certain exercises to try throughout the day, and every time I do, next time we get together, I asked her if she practiced, and she very truthfully tells me know. I have had absolutely nothing to practice with, even though she is fully aware that I gave her an assignment. I do not know how she ever is going to learn if she keeps not practicing. I understand her getting frustrated, but when I am genuinely trying to help her in any way form or shape that I can, I would expect for her to at least have enough respect to put forth a bit of effort. I just wonder how much of this is that she really doesn't understand, versus how much of it is she really seriously is just not trying. I do not want to be rude to her, however when I see that she is making no progress at all, and that it's obvious by her admission, that she is not practicing, what the hell more am I supposed to do? pardon the language, but this is extremely frustrating. what do you all who are also trainers do when you have students like this, is simply either one do not get the concept of something, or simply click do not try and it's very obvious that they are illustrating their lack of effort. this student has had her state lend her a MacBook for three weeks. This means she only has that amount of time to learn. We are extremely early in the three-week process, however, I won't hurt to get the most out of this that she possibly can. most of the things that we already have learned, she is also forgetting almost constantly. No, I do not expect for her to learn all of these things in one night, absolutely not! however, I know that she would be remembering way more than she is if she were willing to sit down for at least 15 minutes a day in practice. She does not seem to even be given me that much. what would be the best thing to do? I do not want to be rude to her, but I also need to let her know I'm very certain terms, but I cannot continue this training
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
The way I explain VoiceOver's interacting with an object or region is to think of what a sighted person does with their eyes when they want to focus in on a small region of the screen. They squint their eyes a bit and narrow their gaze and focus in on a region of the screen that might have small details. It's also akin (sort of) to the zoom feature of a camera; when in zoom mode, you can only see certain elements at a time, but you can see great detail. HTH. • Mark BurningHawk Baxter • AIM, Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 • MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com • My home page: • http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting with items
Hi there! Well, I am not a trainer, but I thought I'd describe my difficulties understanding the interactive concept and see if it helps at all. I do understand your bookshelf analogy except for one thing. If I'm in the finder and come upon a folder name, I just issue an open command to go into it. If I don't want to open the folder, I just hit the arrow key to move to the next folder title. So, I didn't have to do anything there with VoiceOver. I'm really baffled by things like sometimes having to interact with a table and sometimes just arrowing down, as I do in the messages table in mail. So, what did I finally do for me? Gave up on trying to get the concept. grin. I did better with rote learning. Interact here. Don't interact here. Try something and if it doesn't work, try interacting. I can't think of anything in the Windows screen-reader world that is like this. So the best phrase I was able to offer myself was this, some things just don't happen automatically in VoiceOver and you have to tell VoiceOver what you want it to look at. That's the only thing that allowed me to deal with what seems like inconsistencies in when one does or does not need to interact with something. It is kind of a goofy thing and I can see why some people would struggle. And you're right. The only real answer is practice, trial and error. See if it helps to tell your student that other people have trouble figuring this out too and we all just try things together. Maybe if your student can then relax a bit about it, not getting to that brain ache place trying to understand something, he or she may start practicing again. I know I've given myself breaks, just to let my own frustration wind down. And good for you for continuing to try to reach this person. Keep it up. grin. Hope this helps. Veronica At 09:10 PM 6/3/2012, you wrote: The way I explain VoiceOver's interacting with an object or region is to think of what a sighted person does with their eyes when they want to focus in on a small region of the screen. They squint their eyes a bit and narrow their gaze and focus in on a region of the screen that might have small details. It's also akin (sort of) to the zoom feature of a camera; when in zoom mode, you can only see certain elements at a time, but you can see great detail. HTH. • Mark BurningHawk Baxter • AIM, Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 • MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com • My home page: • http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. Watch and hear Veronica Elsea's Prayer for a Soldier at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFoIhWrBHFI Then learn about Music CDs that will impact and entertain you forever! http://www.laurelcreekmusic.com Veronica Elsea, Owner Laurel Creek Music Designs Santa Cruz, California 831-429-6407 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
