Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Frank Griffin a écrit : On 03/25/2011 12:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: My two cents as an user: Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address extending install functionality without changing the content of the existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. Not all "FLOSS supporters" believe that ISOs should be "pure". I would label myself a FLOSS partisan (having contributed in FLOSS projects for 10 years), and yet I don't really make a fuss if an ISO contains non-free software, especially if such software is necessary for good use of some peripherals... Neither do I. By labelling "FLOSS supporters" only the partisans of aforementioned "purity" (a term which, in any political context, should really give you shivers), you are making the community as a whole a disservice. It is not "the purists" vs. "the realists", or some other caricatural reduction of reality. The labeling was for typographical convenience, simply a way to differentiate one camp in this discussion from the other, and was pretty obviously not a part of the intrinsic arguments. I'm on neither side in this; my interest is in having the install support wireless networking, which has nothing to do with whether there is one ISO or two. All the necessary files are already in the distro, I just want the install to use them if they're available. That is not a FLOSS/non-FLOSS/sorta-FLOSS issue. I install cooker/cauldron only, and I haven't installed from an ISO since I got involved with cooker except as an occasional test. I don't care how many ISOs there are, or whether the installer gets these files from the moon. I just figure I have a better chance of seeing this implemented if I point out that two ISOs steps on as few toes as possible, given the current contents of the DVDs. If you want to take up cudgels about merging them for an additional 1% or so of user experience, be my guest. From what you say, there are not a lot of points of disagreement between us, on this issue. We both have contributed to open source for a long time, you apparently mostly on developement/packaging, myself mostly translating/ aide in forums, with some contributions to development. (Currently an apprentice packager.) You find 2 isos a minor inconvenience, but in practice normally install online, from cooker/cauldron. Myself, I find a single DVD that contains everything I need to get a fully working system (in terms of hardware/drivers) a major convenience, and do not have the luxury of the bandwidth necessary to install from the internet. I don't know if you have ever installed from Mandriva's 3-cd set, but juggling 3 cds on installing a package is a hassle that I very much prefer to avoid. One iso is great. As well, I appreciate very much the ability to do a complete, fully working reinstall without internet access. (To facilitate this, I keep packages installed from sources other than the DVD in a separate partition.) The single DVD is not only useful for myself. It is handy to promote Linux as well. Unfortunately, with missing firmware and drivers, the DVD will not fully work on many systems. And new users prefer a _single_ iso that just works. Having to juggle isos is a deterant. On the question of space on the DVD, you must admit that all the (non-free) firmware and drivers (not already included) would not take an enormous amount of space. Note that on the Mandriva 2010.2 DVD, for example, the 2 biggest games take about 100 M and 40 M repectively. It is simply a matter of priorities. In sum, it is easy to understand your point of view, as you don't (normally) use isos. Please understand the point of view of those who do, particularly those who have serious bandwidth restrictions. There are others who militate for a "free-only" DVD, but seem to be unaware that no distro contains only "free" software, not even Fedora. Just as no distro runs on "free/non-proprietary" hardware. -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
2011/3/25 Frank Griffin : > On 03/25/2011 03:49 PM, Anne nicolas wrote: >> >> 2011/3/25 Remy CLOUARD: >>> >>> Welcome Oliver ! >> >> Indeed welcome in hell :) Ah, so this is where he wasted all the time he should have spent on really important work! :) Although I realize that I have lost you now to the alluring world of packaging, I wish you good luck and may your specs always taste sweet! -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] lxde under gdm ?
On 26 March 2011 00:13, Frank Griffin wrote: > This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but is LXDE expected to work > in conjunction with GDM ? > > I thought I'd give LXDE a try, but both from my usual ID and a new ID, it > crashes X (or appears to) and flips right back to the DM screen. > > I know there are LXDE advocates here, so before I enter a bug report I > thought I'd ask the obvious question. > Weird... it worked IIRC. I'll test again with latest cauldron updates. -- Ahmad Samir
[Mageia-dev] lxde under gdm ?
This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but is LXDE expected to work in conjunction with GDM ? I thought I'd give LXDE a try, but both from my usual ID and a new ID, it crashes X (or appears to) and flips right back to the DM screen. I know there are LXDE advocates here, so before I enter a bug report I thought I'd ask the obvious question.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
On 03/25/2011 03:49 PM, Anne nicolas wrote: 2011/3/25 Remy CLOUARD: Welcome Oliver ! Indeed welcome in hell :) You're certainly a recognized name around here, and best of luck. @Anne, in my old company, when a developer reached lofty enough stature to be invited to executive management meetings as a regular technical consultant, we used to say "welcome to the kids' table" (I'm not sure if that's an English-only idiom; it means the small table set up for children at holiday dinners to keep them from annoying the adults) :-)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
Le 25/03/2011 21:37, Ahmad Samir a écrit : > On 25 March 2011 21:45, Remy CLOUARD wrote: >> > Hello there, >> > >> > We started mentoring 2 months ago with oliver, and as we are both very >> > busy at work, it took quite some time for us to get ready. But oliver >> > did a very nice training and I would like you to welcome him as a new >> > packager :-) >> > >> > So, if you see packages from obgr_seneca, don’t hesitate to thank him >> > (or shout at him if it doesn’t work :p) >> > >> > Welcome Oliver ! >> > >> > As I said, this is just the beginning, the hardest part is yet to come, >> > but I think you will do a very nice job, do not hesitate to ping anyone >> > of us if you have some troubles with some packages. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > -- >> > Rémy CLOUARD >> > () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail >> > /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments welcome! -- Sandro Cazzaniga IRC: Kharec (irc.freenode.net) Software/Hardware geek Perl dev Mageia and Mandriva contributor
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
Ahmad Samir schrieb am 25.03.2011 > On 25 March 2011 21:45, Remy CLOUARD wrote: > > Welcome Oliver ! > Welcome! I don't want this to sound like a stupid oscar thank you speach. But thanks for your welcome. I hope we will create a wonderful distribution together and thank you very much Remy for a superb mentoring (and you Ahmad for being there answering my questions). I do my very best to repay you with my work! Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
On 25 March 2011 21:45, Remy CLOUARD wrote: > Hello there, > > We started mentoring 2 months ago with oliver, and as we are both very > busy at work, it took quite some time for us to get ready. But oliver > did a very nice training and I would like you to welcome him as a new > packager :-) > > So, if you see packages from obgr_seneca, don’t hesitate to thank him > (or shout at him if it doesn’t work :p) > > Welcome Oliver ! > > As I said, this is just the beginning, the hardest part is yet to come, > but I think you will do a very nice job, do not hesitate to ping anyone > of us if you have some troubles with some packages. > > Best regards, > -- > Rémy CLOUARD > () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail > /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments > Welcome! -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
On 25 March 2011 22:25, Thomas Backlund wrote: > Ahmad Samir skrev 25.3.2011 20:59: >> >> The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the inconsistency >> is not fully my fault :) >> > > Not anymore... > > I fixed the naming 12 days ago when I added media.cfg to svn. > > But since you already have the medias added, you have the old name. > > -- > Thomas > OK, thanks for the heads up (I'll remove then re-add them). -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
Ahmad Samir skrev 25.3.2011 20:59: The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the inconsistency is not fully my fault :) Not anymore... I fixed the naming 12 days ago when I added media.cfg to svn. But since you already have the medias added, you have the old name. -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 02:10:54PM +0100, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:53 > > > Hi, > > > > Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten > > off topic. > > My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. > > Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor > > changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. > > Thanks Robert, I might take up your offer of a repo on the Trinity servers > if I decide to continue to build Trinty packages for Mageia. But right now > I'm a bit demotivated to continue with this and in fact to continue with > Mageia at all. > > Maybe I will rather help you to make some great Trinity packages for > Redhat/Centos since I'm also a Redhat/Centos user, but right now I have to > first make up my mind. > > -- > Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/ You’re quite quick to demotivate yourself. I waited nearly 2 years to have my window manager inside my distribution, because it relies on a specific compile option on a much used package (cairo). During all that time, I _listened_ to people, and though it was kinda heartbraking to admit they were right, I had to understand the reason behind this. Recently, I finally decided to get my hands dirty and to make cairo available for every package, while at the same time providing a mean to get the other cairo available for my package. It seems you do not want to listen to other people concerns, that’s bad, because that prevents you to find a solution that will make everyone happy. Now, people suggested you to do some things, and provide a way to have what you want, please consider it, you’ll understand that people are not against having qt3-devel if there is really such a need, and that TDE can be included once it has been proven to not wreck havok in the distribution (I know these last words are hard to read, because I was in the same situation, but that concern is real). Reassure people, by providing builds in a separate place so that people can test having TDE and KDE, perhaps help you fix issues ! I wish you good luck for this, this is not an easy task, but please change your way of doing things, it’s not by shouting louder than the others that you will get something (you nearly replied to everyone in this thread), people don’t want words, people want acts. You have the freedom to act, take this opportunity :-) my 2 cents -- Rémy CLOUARD () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments pgpbaOEIbmZ1A.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 20:49:53 schreef Anne nicolas: > 2011/3/25 Remy CLOUARD : [...] > > Welcome Oliver ! > > Indeed welcome in hell :) [...] Welcome to hell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
On Friday 25 March 2011 16:45:21, Remy CLOUARD wrote: > Hello there, > > We started mentoring 2 months ago with oliver, and as we are both very > busy at work, it took quite some time for us to get ready. But oliver > did a very nice training and I would like you to welcome him as a new > packager :-) > > So, if you see packages from obgr_seneca, don’t hesitate to thank him > (or shout at him if it doesn’t work :p) > > Welcome Oliver ! Welcome oliver :) (& good luck with ayatana \o/ ) -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
2011/3/25 Remy CLOUARD : > Hello there, > > We started mentoring 2 months ago with oliver, and as we are both very > busy at work, it took quite some time for us to get ready. But oliver > did a very nice training and I would like you to welcome him as a new > packager :-) > > So, if you see packages from obgr_seneca, don’t hesitate to thank him > (or shout at him if it doesn’t work :p) > > Welcome Oliver ! Indeed welcome in hell :) > > As I said, this is just the beginning, the hardest part is yet to come, > but I think you will do a very nice job, do not hesitate to ping anyone > of us if you have some troubles with some packages. > > Best regards, > -- > Rémy CLOUARD > () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail > /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments > -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
[Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
Hello there, We started mentoring 2 months ago with oliver, and as we are both very busy at work, it took quite some time for us to get ready. But oliver did a very nice training and I would like you to welcome him as a new packager :-) So, if you see packages from obgr_seneca, don’t hesitate to thank him (or shout at him if it doesn’t work :p) Welcome Oliver ! As I said, this is just the beginning, the hardest part is yet to come, but I think you will do a very nice job, do not hesitate to ping anyone of us if you have some troubles with some packages. Best regards, -- Rémy CLOUARD () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments pgpbFHstF0Ofp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
On 25 March 2011 19:59, Ahmad Samir wrote: > And bumping the release, is just to make it easier for users who > already have clementine installed to update the package (without > having to use --replacepkgs...) to test it. I didn't though about that :-(
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 10:39:28 schreef Tux99: > Quote: xi wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:32 > > > As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find > > useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. > > > > I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) > > > > which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a > > "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially > > > > if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! > > Exactly my point, thanks Xavier. > > This is about not restricting other people's freedoms. iirc, it was mentioned somewhere that qt3 (without devel) was only submitted to satisfy the lsb requirements (which are ridiculously unrealisticly outdated imho, but there is talk of upgrading). I read this as: 'we just put it there, but noone even tested it to see if it's actually working', it might as well have been an empty package or not there. i think that during this huge (boring) thread to me, this has been misunderstood a few times. as some people mentioned: - make TDE build and run well locally (because TDE obviously is what you want, and it does give a good test-run on qt3 on almost all parts) - co-install it with KDE4 and make it both run very well - discuss with current maintainers/packagers/your mentor of qt3 how to support/maintain this (i suspect there is no real maintainer, but check the commit logs who worked on it). - after all these steps (quite a bit of work), start committing your stuff and submitting to core/testing - organize a few testers to test it out - move to core/release I don't think anyone disagrees with these steps, if they do, you could have packaging leaders/council decide on this. (IMHO, it would be nice to test this procedure of council decisions, i would love to see this happening) I suspect due to the freeze that this will hit cauldron after mageia release 1 good luck
[Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
(Damn google "Reply" button). -- Forwarded message -- From: Ahmad Samir Date: 25 March 2011 20:58 Subject: Re: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1 To: Thierry Vignaud On 25 March 2011 20:52, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > On 25 March 2011 19:29, Mageia Team wrote: >> ahmad 0.6-5.mga1: >> + Revision: 77425 >> - bump rel and submit to core/testing to build against libimobiledevice-1.1.0 > > This is core/updates_testing, not core/testing. > Bumping release is uneeded in order to upload to core/updates_testing IMHO > The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the inconsistency is not fully my fault :) And bumping the release, is just to make it easier for users who already have clementine installed to update the package (without having to use --replacepkgs...) to test it. -- Ahmad Samir -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
On 25 March 2011 19:29, Mageia Team wrote: > ahmad 0.6-5.mga1: > + Revision: 77425 > - bump rel and submit to core/testing to build against libimobiledevice-1.1.0 This is core/updates_testing, not core/testing. Bumping release is uneeded in order to upload to core/updates_testing IMHO
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 12:43:28 schreef Colin Guthrie: > 'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 11:14 did gyre and gimble: [...] > "Freedom" is in no way restricted. [...] totally off topic here, but: Freedom is always restricted, if there is unrestricted freedom, other people will not be free again to choose what they want. Rules are there to restrict the freedom, so everyone has a bit of freedom...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/25/2011 12:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: My two cents as an user: Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address extending install functionality without changing the content of the existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. Not all "FLOSS supporters" believe that ISOs should be "pure". I would label myself a FLOSS partisan (having contributed in FLOSS projects for 10 years), and yet I don't really make a fuss if an ISO contains non-free software, especially if such software is necessary for good use of some peripherals... Neither do I. By labelling "FLOSS supporters" only the partisans of aforementioned "purity" (a term which, in any political context, should really give you shivers), you are making the community as a whole a disservice. It is not "the purists" vs. "the realists", or some other caricatural reduction of reality. The labeling was for typographical convenience, simply a way to differentiate one camp in this discussion from the other, and was pretty obviously not a part of the intrinsic arguments. I'm on neither side in this; my interest is in having the install support wireless networking, which has nothing to do with whether there is one ISO or two. All the necessary files are already in the distro, I just want the install to use them if they're available. That is not a FLOSS/non-FLOSS/sorta-FLOSS issue. I install cooker/cauldron only, and I haven't installed from an ISO since I got involved with cooker except as an occasional test. I don't care how many ISOs there are, or whether the installer gets these files from the moon. I just figure I have a better chance of seeing this implemented if I point out that two ISOs steps on as few toes as possible, given the current contents of the DVDs. If you want to take up cudgels about merging them for an additional 1% or so of user experience, be my guest.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/25 Antoine Pitrou : > > > OTOH, if aforementioned non-free software can be downloaded > automatically over the Internet (especially during installation), then > the whole issue becomes moot. The start of this debate (which has grown very far beyond the initial request) was how to add non-free drivers/firmware for WiFi or special network cards to the installation process for users who can not download anything during installation because such drivers/firmware are needed for internet connection. So, this issue can not become moot :) But everything else (graphic, sound, webcam, etc.) can be installed from the internet after installation if necessary. This has never been an issue. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/25/2011 11:47 AM, Anssi Hannula wrote: On 25.03.2011 14:04, Frank Griffin wrote: Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, I'd not presume that, as as previously stated they contain firmware files without source code even now. Perhaps I should have phrased this as "however FLOSS supporters feel about the current situation, implementing bug#523 won't make them feel any worse".
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
My two cents as an user: > Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current > ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address > extending install functionality without changing the content of the > existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now > without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. Not all "FLOSS supporters" believe that ISOs should be "pure". I would label myself a FLOSS partisan (having contributed in FLOSS projects for 10 years), and yet I don't really make a fuss if an ISO contains non-free software, especially if such software is necessary for good use of some peripherals... By labelling "FLOSS supporters" only the partisans of aforementioned "purity" (a term which, in any political context, should really give you shivers), you are making the community as a whole a disservice. It is not "the purists" vs. "the realists", or some other caricatural reduction of reality. > You can say what you like about newbies or "Aunt Edna", but anyone who > can find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how > the drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both > ways, since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a > deal in terms of bandwidth. Having one ISOs instead of several is not about minimizing download times, it's about providing a better user experience. OTOH, if aforementioned non-free software can be downloaded automatically over the Internet (especially during installation), then the whole issue becomes moot. Regards Antoine.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
2011/3/25 xi : > Hoyt Duff wrote: >> >> I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people >> doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have >> to support it. _Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything_, it makes no >> sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct >> benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which >> is what i suggest. > > You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been > removed from Mageia! > I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be > removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - > noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, > so I stopped)") Well, without going into any technical details and only by looking at the basic question, there seem to be: - Some users who are working with old (but still usable and working!) software who are using this with Mandriva, so these users would like to be able to use it in another distribution. - The devels of that other distribution had to decide which software they will import into their new[1] distribution. Given the low ressources in manpower at this point in time they had to decide to leave this or that package out, especially when the import of such a package demands extended support. This means no harm to the users of those packages, they can still use them the way they did until now (with Mandriva in this case). Therefore the argument by those users that they are left out in the rain if this software will not be imported is not valid. Looks to me a valid decision of the devels of the new distribution. [1] Please do not argue that Mageia is a sequel to Mandriva (somebody did that in this thread) because it is not. If Mandriva would have closed shop, then you may have a point in asking for some continouity. But this is not the case. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, xi wrote: > > Hi again, > > You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been > removed from Mageia! > I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be > removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - > noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, > so I stopped)") > > Remember: QCad is a 2D professional drawing tool and it has NO equivalent > on Linux, so removing it is clearly a regression compared to Mandriva. Mandriva is also removing qt3. As well as most distributions. So if QCad developers want their software to be usable on recent distributions, they need to port it to qt4. And it seems some people are working on it, and have it working : http://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?t=1162&sid=34c9830d18b8abe49c13e31b08496d6f If you want it, you can help making a QCad package using qt4.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 25.03.2011 14:04, Frank Griffin wrote: > Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current > ISOs, I'd not presume that, as as previously stated they contain firmware files without source code even now. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hoyt Duff wrote: On 3/25/11, Tux99 wrote: Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as long as someone wishes it. You're missing their point. I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have to support it. _Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything_, it makes no sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which is what i suggest. [...] Hi again, You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been removed from Mageia! I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, so I stopped)") Remember: QCad is a 2D professional drawing tool and it has NO equivalent on Linux, so removing it is clearly a regression compared to Mandriva. Sad to see that "you" are stuck at removing as useful packages as qt3-devel. Contrarily to what you wrote, It _is_ still needed (not only for my personal needs) and removing it has side effects because it implies removing software (with no replacement) from the mandriva list ... Please reconsider your choices, Xavier P.S. I use Mandriva and QCad at work.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 25 March 2011 13:27, John Balcaen wrote: > The only problem we faced is that we're not agree about packaging qt3-devel Totally off topic: are you french :-) ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 13:42 did gyre and gimble: > > > Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 14:36 > >> It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of >> all >> evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! > > Actually you just made my point here, excluding qt3-devel out of 'neatness' > is quite clearly premature optimization, therefore "the root of all evil" > as you wisely quote... :) "optimization" and "concious decision" are two very different things, but feel free to distort it to make yourself feel better if you like! And I'm not going to get into a debate about semantics here. Such debates are for late nights and a few good whiskies... :p Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 14:36 > It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of > all > evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! Actually you just made my point here, excluding qt3-devel out of 'neatness' is quite clearly premature optimization, therefore "the root of all evil" as you wisely quote... :) -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 12:10 did gyre and gimble: > > > Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:43 > >> "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with >> compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if >> you >> want to use it. > > But isn't one of the reasons for participating in a community distro, > wanting to share what each of us builds for ourselves? > > And if such sharing is being vetoed preemptively in advance without an > objective reason based on facts but rather based on fears and personal > opinions, isn't that an unnecessary restriction of freedom that doesn't > suit a true community distro? Compare it to sharing an apartment/house with some friends. Do you want the other people to leave their unwashed clothes all over the laundry room, or unwashed dishes piling up in the kitchen? Or would you prefer that everyone works together to keep things neat and tidy? If you take each individual freedom to it's logical extreme, then sharing a house would allow for the messiest person in the world to share space with the tidiest. Each has the right to their own feelings and ways of being, but in reality such a combination simply wouldn't work. There has to be middle ground that is reached. That's the whole point in a community. You cannot expect everyone to automatically agree with your take on things. It's clear that some people do agree with your and some don't. This shouldn't be overly surprising. Personally I'd rather keep things tidy and not enable things unless there is a direct need for it (e.g. a dependency). If and when there is an app that requires qt3 in the official repos, then that is such a dep, but until then, it makes sense to keep things neat, especially when rebuilding qt3 with the devel package (and patching it accordingly it seems) is such a trivial step compared to the relatively massive job of the TDE itself. If TDE is going to be made available in Mageia directly then by all means, qt3 will have to be patched and updated accordingly, but it seems rather pre-emptive to get worried about something that remains to be proven at the current time. Real reasons are better than hypothetical ones. And if I'm honest, you've referred to other peoples opinions continually as "non-objective" while I'm pretty sure all the reasons I've seen on this thread (and my own feelings) are perfectly objective and logical and I find it rather dismissive that someone should belittle others by continually stating they are not. They are not non-objective, you just happen not to agree with them! That's fine, you are perfectly within your rights to disagree, just don't confuse the two. There is a very clear route forward and it's incredibly simple, just rebuild your own QT3. As said above, if/when the whole of TDM goes into Mageia, then the "official" qt3 can be adjusted as it's needed. It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of all evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Am 25.03.2011 14:06, schrieb Tux99: At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. I don't see why. Just let me summarize the whole discussion from my point of view: There are (at least) 2 users how would be happy to have qt3-devel in the mageia repos (to compile software more easy on there local machines). One of them volunteers itself to become the maintainer of this package and asked if there are any concerns about it. Possible concerns are: qt3 is deprecated and they (mageia developer) don't wont to have software build on it in the repos, because they don't want the mageia users to use deprecated software. -> But both users don't ask for having software which builds on it to have in the repos. Right? One possible concern which gets in my mind is: To mess the repos with unsophisticated packages which probably is only used by very few users, which lets the repos grow to much. -> But I don't think there are many of such packages, that this can be become acute. So, IMHO I don't really get the point why it should be a problem if Tux99 agrees to maintain this package. The whole debate about TDE is something different and shouldn't influence this discussion. Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 3/25/11, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 > >> Hi, >> QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? >> So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated >> ? > > You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me > who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to > enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 > source package that is part of Mageia. > > If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as > long as someone wishes it. > You're missing their point. I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have to support it. Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything, it makes no sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which is what i suggest. But I see your point as well. While Mageia may not need it, legacy apps may. It would seem to make no sense to deliberately break compatibility with legacy apps on purpose. Indeed, one of the strengths of Linux is the ability to support legacy apps. And since qt3-devel is not a stand-alone package and requires a flip of the switch to produce when they are compiling qt3 anyway, it seems only logical to go ahead and produce it too. The people who are responsible for making the final decision have decided not to do it, leaving you with two choices: either re-compile it yourself to your satisfaction or fork Mageia and make the decisions for the forked distro. Again, i suggest you just re-compile QT3 for your personal use and make the -devel.srpm and -devel.rpm available for others to use. You need to move past this issue. -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:53 > Hi, > > Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten > off topic. > My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. > Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor > changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. Thanks Robert, I might take up your offer of a repo on the Trinity servers if I decide to continue to build Trinty packages for Mageia. But right now I'm a bit demotivated to continue with this and in fact to continue with Mageia at all. Maybe I will rather help you to make some great Trinity packages for Redhat/Centos since I'm also a Redhat/Centos user, but right now I have to first make up my mind. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: John Balcaen wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:27 > > As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt > > the qt3 > > package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks > > to work > > done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). > > > So we can now work on next step ? I said I "started working on the TDE packages", not that I have completed and fully debugged them. Right now I'm quite demotivated to continue with this since I don't see the point given that it won't be included in the repos. Xavier's post about qt3-devel are also being completely ignored and they have nothing to do with TDE, but are at least as valid. > > At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes > > into the > > Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. > > > I don't see why. Maybe because core members of Mageia have explicitly said they are against TDE being included in the Mageia repos earlier in this thread? > We started a new distribution and we made choices, one of them was to > not > have Qt3 apps. Who is "we"? I don't recall any debate about this and even less a consensus being formed in the community. > It's not like we were providing Qt3 & others apps & suddently someone > decides to drop all of them from the distribution... This could be seen > as > arbitrary and unnecessary limitations because suddently you can loose > functionnality, here we started *without* thoses because we decided to > start > like this. Mageia claims to be an upgrade for Mandriva, so yes, this is packages being dropped and loss of functionality for existing users, see also Xavier's posts. John, please don't get me wrong you and Blino have been some of the few voices of reason in this thread and I appreciate that. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hi, Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten off topic. My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
2011/3/25 Tux99 > > > Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also > > compile > > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to > > > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 > > I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest is > 3.5.12. > After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will look at > applying the patch to the qt3 package. > > > So i'll repeat myself once more : > > -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box > > -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available > > in 3.5.12 > > & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 > > -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ > > /opt) > > -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's > > really > > needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests > > -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of > > it > > As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt the qt3 > package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks to work > done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). > So we can now work on next step ? Assume you can build it without problem, that's it's including without problem in mageia, put it on an external repository for more test and after discuss again about it's inclusion in mandriva. > The point is with the overwhelmingly negative attitude directed towards me > even 'thinking' about TDE in Mageia, I don't think my reaction is that > surprising, or is it? > I did not see any negative attitude directed towards you, most of people told you that for the moment it was a no-go in order to enable qt3-devel until you'll be able to prove that TDE can integrate nicely in Mageia, that's all. They also explained : -> why qt3 was still in mageia & why we did not package the -devel files. We could have close this thread far earlier > At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the > Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. > I don't see why. The only problem we faced is that we're not agree about packaging qt3-devel for the moment, that's all. We proposed you to packaged TDE , get it reviewed etc etc. Some of us indeed ask for a Qt4 TDE and not a Qt3 TDE.. > Also this is not really about my ideas as Xavier's post showed, there are > others too that are affected by these arbitrary and unnecessary > limitations (they are probably just less outspoken than I am). > We started a new distribution and we made choices, one of them was to not have Qt3 apps. It's not like we were providing Qt3 & others apps & suddently someone decides to drop all of them from the distribution... This could be seen as arbitrary and unnecessary limitations because suddently you can loose functionnality, here we started *without* thoses because we decided to start like this. -- Balcaen John Jabber-Id: mik...@jabber.littleboboy.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/25 Frank Griffin : > > You can say what you like about newbies or "Aunt Edna", but anyone who can > find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how the > drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both ways, > since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a deal in > terms of bandwidth. > > If you can't understand a reasonably verbose panel that says that "your > computer's hardware requires our secondary network/drivers/firmware > CD/DVD/ISO in order to activate networking", and says that you can find it > in the same place you got this disk, be that a network repository or a > friend who burned it for you, then you probably need to be reminded to > breathe. Such people are hardly about to be Mageia early-adopters, and we > have some time to discuss how we want to deal with them. +1 Especially migrators from Windows will understand this "To activate this hadware you need an extra driver" approach - they see it almost every time they install a hardware which is not really mainstream (and for some mainstream hardware as well). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:17:27 +0200 (SAST) Buchan Milne wrote: > > - "andre999" wrote: > > > > ok. > > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware > > that its > > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat > > it like > > > > (almost) part of the hardware. > > I would agree, but some people wouldn't. > > > As for the drivers, a little more distant from the hardware, > > they could > > be in non-free, but I sincerely think that they should be on > > all installation isos. > > I wouldn't say "all". > > > That is, on installing from an iso, all hardware-related > > functions should (ideally) be fully functional, even if it > > requires using non-free > > drivers. > > IMHO, not without informing the user, so that they have the > choice (e.g. to consider replacing the hardware by something > supported by free software => supporting vendors who support free > software). > > > The lack of some drivers (or components of drivers) can render a > > system > > technically functional, but with important dysfunctions, simply > > because > > the required drivers were not available on installation. > > That should not happen. > > IMHO, that is not *our* choice to make for the user. > > > The kernel, firmware and drivers, built on the hardware, > > provide a platform on which the application software runs. > > True, it is better if drivers are open source, but in my view, > > it is application software where open source is the most > > important. > > But, that is *your* view. > > IMHO, some of these questions should be posed to the community. > > For example, maybe we should brand ISO releases as something like > "Mageia Libre" and "Mageia Gratis" (note, not a "Mageia" and > "Mageia limited" or similar, give equal standing to both > releases), where Libre would include no non-free software of any > kind on the media, users using Libre would never be prompted > about non-free software (without opting in, by e.g. installing a > different release package). Gratis would include non-free > software/firmware required to enable hardware or specific > hardware features. > > I think it may be worthwhile catering to users who would like to > follow FSF Free distribution guidelines as closely as possible, > by providing a release that is as close as practically possible > to these guidelines (but still making it possible for pragmatic > users to have a good experience). > > Regards, > Buchan I particularly like the proposed use of the terms Libre and Gratis. My main concern is that newbie Mageia users - those who come direct from Windows, rather than from another variety of Linux - might abandon the installation when asked to opt in (or out) of anything marked 'non-free', mistakenly thinking that they will have to pay for it. -- Margot ~~ **Otford Ducks Computers** We teach, you learn... ...and, if you don't do your homework, we set the cat on you! ~~
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:43 > "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with > compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if > you > want to use it. But isn't one of the reasons for participating in a community distro, wanting to share what each of us builds for ourselves? And if such sharing is being vetoed preemptively in advance without an objective reason based on facts but rather based on fears and personal opinions, isn't that an unnecessary restriction of freedom that doesn't suit a true community distro? -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
nicolas vigier wrote: On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and myself. And you want to arbitrarily make life a lot harder to people who want to make sure the distribution is not based on obsolete and unmaintained software. On the other hand, rebuilding a qt3 package yourself takes a few minutes. [...] You're building other software, but you can't rebuild a qt3 package yourself ? Sorry but I can't agree here: when I build a software, I like to build _just_ the software, not the whole system around! (I would use a Gentoo otherwise). I loved Mandriva because of this point: it was at the same time simple to use AND full of resource to build and customize specialized applications. If you are on this way, you can also remove QCad*: yes it is old, unmaintained and based on QT3 - but still the best free 2D drawing software on Linux ... As a user, I still use applications which needs qt3 and with no equivalent based on QT4 ; so I would like qt3-devel to be included in Mageia I can't see the point in not including packages just because they are unmaintained. They are still used and useful + you have people who want to package them, so ? Thanks for reading me, Xavier * maybe it is already removed from Mageia, I didn't checked. But I think I can find a lot of other example of obsolete & unmaintained software but still useful which were in Mandriva (eg xmms).
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
This has really moved away from the question of providing drivers/firmware to a "pissing contest" about whose philosophy the default offerings should represent. Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address extending install functionality without changing the content of the existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. I think we should proceed with that approach, and leave the more controversial question of whether the ISOs should be merged for another day. You can say what you like about newbies or "Aunt Edna", but anyone who can find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how the drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both ways, since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a deal in terms of bandwidth. If you can't understand a reasonably verbose panel that says that "your computer's hardware requires our secondary network/drivers/firmware CD/DVD/ISO in order to activate networking", and says that you can find it in the same place you got this disk, be that a network repository or a friend who burned it for you, then you probably need to be reminded to breathe. Such people are hardly about to be Mageia early-adopters, and we have some time to discuss how we want to deal with them. Eventually, we may agree to offer a merged ISO. Better still, since anyone falling into the category of needing that much hand-holding is unlikely to have bought a bare machine and is probably coming from Windows, maybe we ought to provide a Windows app that checks the hardware, downloads the needed ISOs to the Windows filesystem (on what we assume is a working network-enabled system) after suitable prompts to the user, and then enhance the install to look for them there.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: tux99 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:47 > Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can > > also compile > > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be > > able to > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 > > I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest > is 3.5.12. > After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will > look at applying the patch to the qt3 package. Correction: I meant to say the patch is needed for TDE >3.5.12, TDE 3.5.12 does not require it AFAIK. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also > compile > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest is 3.5.12. After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will look at applying the patch to the qt3 package. > So i'll repeat myself once more : > -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box > -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available > in 3.5.12 > & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 > -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ > /opt) > -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's > really > needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests > -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of > it As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt the qt3 package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks to work done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). The point is with the overwhelmingly negative attitude directed towards me even 'thinking' about TDE in Mageia, I don't think my reaction is that surprising, or is it? At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. Also this is not really about my ideas as Xavier's post showed, there are others too that are affected by these arbitrary and unnecessary limitations (they are probably just less outspoken than I am). -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 11:14 did gyre and gimble: > My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom > is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. This is a very, very subjective statement, and I am rather concerned that it's being used as some kind of leverage here (perhaps include a picture of a puppy with sad eyes too! :p) "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if you want to use it. If you come up with a set of applications that then build off it that you want to be included in Mageia repos, then I'm sure this can be discussed at the time. Saying that a certain packaging option "restricts freedom" is a statement I find rather offensive. Nothing is restricted, you simply have to rebuild things. Ahmad disabled gvfs-iphone the other day as it requires a newer (and apparently less stable) libimobiledevice. Does that "restrict my freedom"? No, of course it does not. I don't necessarily agree with the decision and I'll test the stability of the new combo in coming weeks to see if it can be included officially. This isn't restricting my freedom, it's just a process I have to go through. This is exactly the same with your qt3-devel issue. Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 12:14, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:56 >> A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no >> to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" >> would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this >> is an open source project. > > You seem to be confusing different concepts here, just because a project is > based on open source software that doesn't automatically guarantee that the > community based on it is a community that values freedom. Re-read our project docs, then (announcement, values, code of conduct). And understand that it's not about the freedom of getting all that you want without consideration for what it is, who makes it, and when and how. > My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom > is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. My feeling here is that, even before the technical issues at hand, your attitude (or at least how it is perceived) is very much the cause of the crispation. You seem to take this whole project as if it was a given to you. When people object to you based on their experience, you understand that as an unappropriate preference and don't even seem to listen to what is proposed. When things appear to you not as you expected them, you look like ready to dismiss the goodwill of the same people that make this whole project possible every single day. And that taints a lot the points you're trying to make, whatever these are. Collaboration is not only about facts, desires, opinions. If you are not able to go along well within the packaging team, only in discussion, it's unfortunately possible that you won't like it; others won't like it either. Nothing good will come out of this. >> Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it >> again. > > Is that now the procedure for this? For opening a bug? https://bugs.mageia.org/ => New, and explain the thing. > I would also appreciate it, if you could clarify the procedures with > regards to the council I asked about in my last reply to you. The board/council lists are not setup yet, unfortunately. However you may have seen on -discuss that a preparation document is available for next council meeting; although this coming meeting is already quite full, you may append your point for the next one. And that doesn't prevent from asking clearly here or on discuss that you want the topic to be reviewed by the council. But even there, you being an apprentice, I would suggest you: - first, review this with your mentor; - second, review this again with the packaging team; - third, push this to the council if needed (where it will need to have both sides expose their points, for the record and the decision). Cool. And good luck. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Friday 25 March 2011 08:18:38, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > > > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. > > So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and > myself. If you think so... As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also compile qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 So it's just not about « enable -devel » in qt3 package because i guess you're not going to stick with with TDE 3.5.12 i guess ? So i'll repeat myself once more : -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available in 3.5.12 & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ /opt) -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's really needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of it Regards, -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > > > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. > > So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and > myself. And you want to arbitrarily make life a lot harder to people who want to make sure the distribution is not based on obsolete and unmaintained software. On the other hand, rebuilding a qt3 package yourself takes a few minutes. > > > And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build > > software based on it. > > Of course I want to build sw based on it, I said so in the first post of > this thread, but that doesn't automatically imply that t this software > will be in the Mageia repos (that's a separate issue). You're building other software, but you can't rebuild a qt3 package yourself ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and myself. > And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build > software based on it. Of course I want to build sw based on it, I said so in the first post of this thread, but that doesn't automatically imply that t this software will be in the Mageia repos (that's a separate issue). > And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, > other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ? See the first post of this thread and indeed even the subject of this thread. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:56 > A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no > to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" > would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this > is an open source project. You seem to be confusing different concepts here, just because a project is based on open source software that doesn't automatically guarantee that the community based on it is a community that values freedom. My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. And no a choice is definitely not always arbitrary. Choices can be forced by unsurmountable limitations or technical incompatibilities or they can be arbitrary (i.e. not objectively necessary). > > In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not > > officially > > supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good > > situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for > > everyone. > > Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it > again. Is that now the procedure for this? I would also appreciate it, if you could clarify the procedures with regards to the council I asked about in my last reply to you. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:50 > > > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having > > > packages > > > based on it in the official repos. > > > > Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if > > it's not to have other packages based on it ? > > Why do you NOT want to have it in the repo? Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build software based on it. > I have only seen arbitrary reasons based on personal preferences, not an > objective compelling reason. And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:33, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:53 >> If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how >> things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of >> the council or of the board to sort it out. > > Is there a procedure for that somewhere? > I would think such discussions are supposed to happen on the MLs (rather > than in private) and given that board/council members posted in this > thread I would assume that this discussion is happening here. That's still a discussion, where views and directions are given. No strict decision. Because I'm a board member does not mean that everything I say in any discussion is a de-facto board view/decision (thankfully). It can hint about what my views are and how I would express them in a board meeting; but it doesn't mean that this will necessarily be what I'll vote for either. > Are you saying that the members of the council that posted here in this > thread would give a different answer if I contacted them formally (how?) > as members of the council? Not necessarily, but it can happen. As a reminder: - council meeting/decisions are made by team representatives, that express their team's views; - board meeting/decisions are made by board members, that express their own views, with consideration given to the council (hence teams) and community views at large + project objectives & means. That does not prevent individual members of each, out of these instances, to express their own views, without these having the force of a rule at once (again, thankfully). > I have no problem co-maintaining the package (with regards to the devel > side of it) but I'm not aware of any formal procedure to take maintenance > of a package. > Is there such a procedure formalized somewhere? See that with your mentor. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:50 > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having > > packages > > based on it in the official repos. > > Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if > it's not to have other packages based on it ? Why do you NOT want to have it in the repo? Does it affect you if it's in the repo? Did you read Xavier's post? > Nothing prevent you from building the package on your computer if you > want it. But we don't want it on the repository for the reasons > already > explained ... I have only seen arbitrary reasons based on personal preferences, not an objective compelling reason. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:38, Tux99 wrote: > Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: > > "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in > the repository" > > or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and > other packagers? Nothing is always written down on paper. Saying it's arbitrary because it comes out of packagers' experience is a tad extreme. Saying that "restricts freedoms of users" is clearly excessive here. Again, it's not as if it was a closed product: users can open the box and package stuff too (ah yes, it's not dead obvious to do so, but that's something we can aim to improve in the coming years). What will come out of Mageia, in June, won't satisfy everyone. Choices will have been done. A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this is an open source project. That's not to say that people will just have to help themselves, we expect to make something cool and useful, but we're not going to say "yes!" to everything and everyone either. > In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially > supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good > situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it again. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:20 > > > The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't > > want > > to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. > > That is not a compelling reason as Xavier's post showed for example. > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having packages > based on it in the official repos. Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if it's not to have other packages based on it ? > > Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: > > "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in > the repository" > > or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and > other packagers? Nothing prevent you from building the package on your computer if you want it. But we don't want it on the repository for the reasons already explained ...
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:20 > The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't > want > to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. That is not a compelling reason as Xavier's post showed for example. Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having packages based on it in the official repos. Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository" or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and other packagers? In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Grub version
Le 21/03/2011 16:10, Stefano Negro a écrit : > > > 2011/3/21 Thorsten van Lil mailto:tv...@gmx.de>> > > The last time I installed Ubuntu (one year ago, i think) it detected my > mandriva installation and set it up in the grub. Nevertheless it doesn't > worked and I had to manipulate grub2 according to boot mandriva. But that > was/is a known bug in (ubuntus) grub2. > > Regards, > Thorsten > > Ok, I will have a look at the bugs in ubuntu and try to understand it. > > > -- > Thanks > Stblack I've posted a patch for grub2 about this sometime ago : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=566102
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:53 > You can't force a maintainer to do something you want and that she > judges not right for her set of packages. We seem to be having a communication issue. Where did I force a maintainer to do anything? I asked if there is any COMPELLING reason for me not to reenable qt3-devel. If there isn't, then of course I will reenable it. It wasn't me who then started a long off-topic discussion about imagined or otherwise risks of TDE. > If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how > things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of > the council or of the board to sort it out. Is there a procedure for that somewhere? I would think such discussions are supposed to happen on the MLs (rather than in private) and given that board/council members posted in this thread I would assume that this discussion is happening here. Are you saying that the members of the council that posted here in this thread would give a different answer if I contacted them formally (how?) as members of the council? TBH I didn't even want any grand discussion, to repeat myself I was just trying to find out if there is anything blocking the reenabling of qt3-devel. (I hope this point is finally clear enough by now) > So why all the fuss? Take the maintainance of the package, make your > changes, submit it and here you are. If you re-read the thread you will find that I didn't start "the fuss", in fact it was started by people expressing fears about TDE and some board/council members putting preemptive vetos on TDE. I have no problem co-maintaining the package (with regards to the devel side of it) but I'm not aware of any formal procedure to take maintenance of a package. Is there such a procedure formalized somewhere? -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > > > Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights > > but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take > > their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their > > right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And > > it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary > > that the maintainer should ... "obey". > > As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that > doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. > Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable > qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do > so. The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. The only reason that we keep the library and only removed the devel package is that some external LSB programs could use it, so we need it to be compatible with LSB.
Re: [Mageia-dev] for when geany in the repos?
2011/3/25 cristian gomez : > i try to compile it iself but it need gtk 2.0+ and that is not on the > repos...and when i try to compile gtk that need more dependens,that no are > in the repos too.. > excuseme my english. > check rather gtk+2.0 package -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:37, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > >> Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights >> but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take >> their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their >> right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And >> it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary >> that the maintainer should ... "obey". > > As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that > doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. You can't force a maintainer to do something you want and that she judges not right for her set of packages. At best you can ask a community (council) decision about that, and that may lead to you (or someone else) taking the maintainance of the said package. If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of the council or of the board to sort it out. Here was only a discussion where you get overly alarmed without any necessity when people start to answer their views contrary to your plans. Nowhere was a decision to block you. If you wanted a consensus, you've seen in this thread what it was; that still doesn't block you from doing/pushing your changes as long as they don't break anything. If you wanted a decision, you'd have to formally ask for that the packagers team, or the council, or the board: that was not done. So what are you complaining about? > Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable > qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do > so. So why all the fuss? Take the maintainance of the package, make your changes, submit it and here you are. romain
[Mageia-dev] for when geany in the repos?
i try to compile it iself but it need gtk 2.0+ and that is not on the repos...and when i try to compile gtk that need more dependens,that no are in the repos too.. excuseme my english.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: xi wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:32 > As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find > useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. > > I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) > > which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a > "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially > > if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! Exactly my point, thanks Xavier. This is about not restricting other people's freedoms. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights > but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take > their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their > right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And > it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary > that the maintainer should ... "obey". As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do so. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
y...@antredugeek.fr wrote: Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? Imho, Mageia had better to wait for a trinity-qt4-desktop... ++ yg Hi, Last realease of QT3 is _not_ 6 years old but about 3 years old ... As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! Thanks, Xavier
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Oliver Burger wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:21 > A community distro is first and formost about community. Every time one > of your > ideas, suggestions, questions is answered by anyone with a "no" you > begin to > blame "a few of the core members", no matter how many people said no > and who > they were. You completely missed the point. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:09, Tux99 wrote: > You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me > who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to > enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. Then ask the qt3 maintainer - and as long as you don't expect to give a hand in this maintaince, live by her/his answer (if it's only about qt3). And if you're not satisfied with the recommandations/answers you got from there, just push the topic as a clear question to a next coming Council meeting to decide on this and you'll see (but it's likely the Council will stand by the maintainer recommandation, unless there's really something big at stake on the contrary). > If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as > long as someone wishes it. If it's deprecated stuff, is there any compeling reason to reenable a devel package of it. And if someone wishes it back, and the maintainers thinks it's not worth it (too old, deprecated, unstable, complex, unclear, not the plan), the maintainer has the hand (so one can become the maintainer if it's really needed for her). > What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be > first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their > preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal > preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the > way by a few of the core members. Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary that the maintainer should ... "obey". See above posts, we've been several to suggest you a more practical path for everyone. That choices made here in this project do/will not satisfy everyone is plain obvious. Those choices don't prevent one from reverting them on ones end, demonstrate they are worth it in the project main line, and have them integrated. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Am Freitag 25 März 2011, 10:09:57 schrieb Tux99: > What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be > first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their > preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal > preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the > way by a few of the core members. Sorry but I can't let that stand as it is. A community distro is first and formost about community. Every time one of your ideas, suggestions, questions is answered by anyone with a "no" you begin to blame "a few of the core members", no matter how many people said no and who they were. You just have to accept that in a community project like mageia there is a decission structure ( see out gouvernance model at http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=org). So there isn't a secret inner circle of dictators who tell the other what to do and what not to do, it's an open structure in which everyone can participate. But if the majority of people take a decision, you just have to accept it. If anyone just does what he thinks is best, we won't have a community project, we will have anarchy. Perhaps you should consider that and stop writing unfounded accusations in capital letters, like you did here. Just my 2 cents... Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 > Hi, > QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? > So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated > ? You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as long as someone wishes it. What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the way by a few of the core members. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? Imho, Mageia had better to wait for a trinity-qt4-desktop... ++ yg
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- "Tux99" wrote: > Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 > > > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware > that > > its > > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it > like > > (almost) part of the hardware. > > I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) > questions the > fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware > or > microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards > and > peripherals. > > Firmware belongs into 'core', You mean, firmware which has an unrestricted distribution licence? > Nvidia/ATI drivers and the Flash plugin > belong into 'non-free'. Actually, for Flash, we need a redistribution license. Has someone contacted Adobe about this? Redistribution of Flash without a licence is prohibited[1]. We can apply for a licence to redistribute[2]. Regards, Buchan 1. http://www.adobe.com/products/players/fpsh_faq.html#section-1-5 2. http://www.adobe.com/go/fp_apply_dist
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Am 25.03.2011 09:23, schrieb Buchan Milne: Maybe for you. Maybe for me. But, the*real* question is, would this discourage some of our target market from using our distribution. IOW, we*must* get community input (after documenting some proposals). Maybe we should postpone this question. Let us release Mageia1 with two DVDs (one 32bit and one 64bit) and maybe with a live medium. Mageia1 won't be a big step but tries to be a solid fundamental for our further work, so no need to make a final decision now. What about a large survey after Mageia1 which concentrates not only on Mageia user but the linux community at all (advertise this survey in linux media/newsprotals). Ask them, what they expect from a distribution or what they miss (yes I know not an easy task, need of standardized questions/possible answers). I think that could be really interesting, which doesn't mean that we have to implement every wish they have. Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that > its > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like > (almost) part of the hardware. I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and peripherals. Firmware belongs into 'core', Nvidia/ATI drivers and the Flash plugin belong into 'non-free'. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- "Maarten Vanraes" wrote: > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 11:18:03 schreef Olivier Blin: > > Wolfgang Bornath writes: > > >>> It can't be "free" and have "non-free" firmware... previously > the > > >>> firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has > been > > >>> changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get > discussed > > >>> yet). > > >> > > >> They were also on the PowerPack images, and they are installed > > >> automatically over a network install > > > > > > But to be installed via network you have to have a network > connection > > > first, n'est-ce pas? > > > That's what this thread is about. > > > > It is now also about "in which media should we include non-free > > packages?" :) > > no, about if they are really non-free... stuff released as BSD is free > in my > book. if they don't comply, they could be sued for all i care, but > it's still > free. Well, even if they say the source code is BSD, if: 1)The source is not provided (under a free license) 2)The source can't be compiled with a free toolchain then it is non-free, and most likely the license is wrong, and they have chosen to relicense from BSD to a proprietary licence (which BSD of course allows). Compare e.g. Darwin and Mac OS X. Since Mac OS X is has some originally BSD source code, must Apple provide me with complete Mac OS X source code? If they don't, do I have grounds to sue? No. Is it Free? Most definitely not. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- "andre999" wrote: > Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : > > > > 2011/3/24 Olivier Blin: > >> Thorsten van Lil writes: > >> > >>> Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: > 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samir: > > On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgan > wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad > Samirwrote: > >>> > >>> Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free > firmware? > >> > >> No, but the question is more , will we provide a "non free" dvd > iso, > >> and this question is i think interesting. > >> > A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a > non-free > "driver cd ISO" which they could include in the installation > process. > > >>> > >>> What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to > not > >>> install them? > >>> I think the majority of the users don't care that much about > >>> proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless > card > >>> or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free > part > >>> of the DVD. :) > >> > >> Yep, it could just be an option. The desktop selection step seems > to be a > >> good place in the installer to include it, it is visible enough, > and > >> right before packages installation. Though it would have to be > renamed. > >> > >> We could have a checkbox "Install proprietary drivers if needed > >> (non-free software)", ticked by default. > > perfect solution :) Maybe for you. Maybe for me. But, the *real* question is, would this discourage some of our target market from using our distribution. IOW, we *must* get community input (after documenting some proposals). > > Are you aware that this would mean that Mageia is not a "free > > distribution" as planned? No matter how you phrase the question and > > how many checkboxes a user would have to check, if non-free > contents > > is included in an ISO it is not a free ISO anymore. > > Mageia the distribution includes non-free software. We are talking > about what we include on the ISO. > If users want to exclude installing any non-free packages, this > check-box solution solves the problem nicely. Depends on what guidelines you follow. E.g., some might say there shouldn't be a checkbox at all. Some might say the checkbox should be disabled by default. Some might say that there should be no non-free software on the default media. > So users that want to ensure that their installation works "out of the > > box" will be satisfied. > And purists that don't mind some things not working, can avoid > installing non-free drivers. "Can avoid" and "guaranteed to never occur" are not the same, and some users may want the latter. > Sounds like a win-win solution to me :) But, again, this is subjective, you are presenting your preference, and yours may not be the only one we should cater to. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Dexter Morgan wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:15 > > Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in > > the qt3 > > source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? > > > > If not then I want to reenable it. > > Work on TDE on your side first, we won't reenable this old, > deprecated, unmaintened package is nothing really need it. > Reenable it locally for you, do all your work on TDE and then when you > will have fullfilled and pre required we will be able to start to > discuss about TDE. Dexter, you didn't really answer my question, I will work on TDE by myself but my question is about if there is any COMPELLING REASON NOT TO REENABLE QT3-devel. QT3 is ALREADY included in Mageia so reenabling the devel package does not make any difference whatsoever to Mageia. I didn't start this thread to discuss about TDE, but purely for qt3-devel. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Tux99 wrote: > > > Ok, can we get back on topic? > > Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in the qt3 > source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? > > If not then I want to reenable it. Work on TDE on your side first, we won't reenable this old, deprecated, unmaintened package is nothing really need it. Reenable it locally for you, do all your work on TDE and then when you will have fullfilled and pre required we will be able to start to discuss about TDE.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Ok, can we get back on topic? Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in the qt3 source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? If not then I want to reenable it. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 03:17:27 -0400, Buchan Milne wrote: But, that is *your* view. IMHO, some of these questions should be posed to the community. My opinion, is that the there must be an iso that includes everything needed to install a basic system, and get updates or other software. If the network will not be accessible without jumping through hoops, then the distro will devolve into one only used by people willing to jump through those hoops. I doubt most people are willing. If the network cannot be accessed after (or while) installing the system, without jumping through hoops, who is going to bother trying to use it? Put the non-free (should be renamed to closed-source, or something more explanatory) in a separate directory on the iso, and give the installer the choice of using it. Whether or not the default should be to include it or not is open for discussion. In My opinion, it should be an opt-out, not an opt-in. Regards, Dave Hodgins
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- "andre999" wrote: > ok. > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that > its > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like > > (almost) part of the hardware. I would agree, but some people wouldn't. > As for the drivers, a little more distant from the hardware, they > could > be in non-free, but I sincerely think that they should be on all > installation isos. I wouldn't say "all". > That is, on installing from an iso, all hardware-related functions > should (ideally) be fully functional, even if it requires using > non-free > drivers. IMHO, not without informing the user, so that they have the choice (e.g. to consider replacing the hardware by something supported by free software => supporting vendors who support free software). > The lack of some drivers (or components of drivers) can render a > system > technically functional, but with important dysfunctions, simply > because > the required drivers were not available on installation. > That should not happen. IMHO, that is not *our* choice to make for the user. > The kernel, firmware and drivers, built on the hardware, provide a > platform on which the application software runs. > True, it is better if drivers are open source, but in my view, it is > application software where open source is the most important. But, that is *your* view. IMHO, some of these questions should be posed to the community. For example, maybe we should brand ISO releases as something like "Mageia Libre" and "Mageia Gratis" (note, not a "Mageia" and "Mageia limited" or similar, give equal standing to both releases), where Libre would include no non-free software of any kind on the media, users using Libre would never be prompted about non-free software (without opting in, by e.g. installing a different release package). Gratis would include non-free software/firmware required to enable hardware or specific hardware features. I think it may be worthwhile catering to users who would like to follow FSF Free distribution guidelines as closely as possible, by providing a release that is as close as practically possible to these guidelines (but still making it possible for pragmatic users to have a good experience). Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 01:29, andre999 wrote: > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that its > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like > (almost) part of the hardware. No. Because it's hardware or firmware doesn't make it more or less an issue regarding being open source or not. The same reasoning applies as for software. And if it's not open source, it's not. Even closed hardware is an issue in the end (in this regard, the open hardware movement is still in its infancy but it's promising - and important too). That something is put in nonfree media instead of core shouldn't pose an irresolvable issue for easyness of installation and use. > That is, on installing from an iso, all hardware-related functions should > (ideally) be fully functional, even if it requires using non-free drivers. You are mixing two things: what goes into core or nonfree, and what goes onto a shipped ISO. The question is not shipping or not ISOs with or without nonfree stuff on it. Some ISO will host core & nonfree parts of course, for the sake of convenience for users (that doesn't prevent from informing about the issues regarding nonfree stuff). But some available ISO ought to host only core (that is, expected, only FLOSS). Romain
