Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
On 7/15/08, Savoy, Jim wrote: We have class lists, lab lists, club lists, team lists, student lists, employee lists, security lists (some of which contain every soul on our campus - rarely ever used (never used yet, in fact, knock wood) for Virginia Tech-type campus-wide emergencies, etc). Mailing lists are useful for a wide variety of things, but VT-type emergencies are not among them. IIRC, just a day or two after that event, the CIO of VT came to this very list to ask for assistance in setting up Mailman for future cases like this, to send out emergency notices to everyone on campus. My understanding is that he went away very disheartened when he was informed of: 1. The inherently unreliable nature of e-mail and how long it can take to get delivered under normal circumstances 2. The more time-sensitive the subject, the less likely you are to meet your desired goals of reachability in a given amount of time 3. The fact that most carriers are literally dropping billions and billions of SMS messages per day that are coming across the e-mail-to-SMS gateways There are commercial companies who specialize in these kinds of emergency broadcast notification systems. For this function, you want to go with one of these companies. Mailing lists are *NOT* a good solution here. But in all these years, we've had very few complaints and everything has run very smoothly. We usually comply quickly if someone wants out, but we would never in a million years want people to have to opt-in! When you have some control over the potential population (like a University does over their faculty, staff, and students, or how a company would have control over their employees), then an opt-out solution of the sort you describe is quite reasonable. Again, we get back to this issue where not everyone uses it that way, and the feature can be sorely abused. However, considering circumstances such as you have described, the feature is provided in the code and is not currently disabled by default. And, despite my own personal views, I realize the situation that other sites may be in, so I don't agitate too loudly to try to change that default. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Brad Knowles wrote: Mailing lists are useful for a wide variety of things, but VT-type emergencies are not among them. Well we definitely know that it isn't the *only* solution (there are speakers and alarms and sirens and lights and cameras everywhere on campus). But it is just one more thing we can add to the basket of helpful security goodies. IIRC, just a day or two after that event, the CIO of VT came to this very list to ask for assistance in setting up Mailman for future cases like this, to send out emergency notices to everyone on campus. I must have missed that discussion. My understanding is that he went away very disheartened... I think his expectations were unreasonably high. E-Mail has its caveats, just like everything else. We had lots of meetings here after the VT (and Dawson College (Montreal)) attacks. I think everyone in security understood that none of their solutions were 100% guaranteed, but they also agreed that a saturation warning (by every means possible) was better than nothing. - jim - -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
I guess we might be considered a fascist regime, but mass-subscribe is an invauable tool here at our university. Hardly any of our lists are opt-in (what a nightmare that would be for us - we need our lists up and populated on exact dates and ready to roll). We have class lists, lab lists, club lists, team lists, student lists, employee lists, security lists (some of which contain every soul on our campus - rarely ever used (never used yet, in fact, knock wood) for Virginia Tech-type campus-wide emergencies, etc). Many of the lists are automatically populated by cron on certain dates. There is very little involvement really, and all of the email addresses used to populate these lists are from our own domains. Sure we have the odd cranky professor or student who wants off, and we comply by setting their no-mail flag for them (unless it's the security list - they have no opt-out option on that one (and a few others) and that is written into their contract when they aquire an account from us). But in all these years, we've had very few complaints and everything has run very smoothly. We usually comply quickly if someone wants out, but we would never in a million years want people to have to opt-in! That would truly be a disaster (confused users, thousands of phone calls and help queries, and worst of all, porously-populated, inconsistent lists, with no guarantees that the right students got critical class/lab-related messages, etc). This invisible behind-the-scenes subscription method is the way to go for us. None of our Mailman subscribers even know they have their own list passwords, and we don't want them to! (I'd say about .01% are clever/curious enough to figure it out - I'm not implying that they are dopes, but rather they are just overwhelmed by the hundreds of new things they have to learn coming to a university - we don't want to pile on with even more stuff they need to know). I think that by running the server ourselves (and using only addresses from our domains) warrants this admittedly fascist attitude. Perhaps the safest way to handle this (in future releases) is to make mass-subscribe=NO the default setting for new installs, but not removing the option altogether. Thanks. - jim - PS I am pretty sure that this discussion only involves removing mass-subscribe from the GUI (and not the command line) but many of our lists require mass- subscribes on certain dates from the GUI as well (usually conducted by the departmental secretaries). -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model. Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then the entire ISP gets blacklisted. And some blacklists you simply cannot *EVER* get them to remove you. Personally, I would be happy to see the mass subscribe feature go away completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by default. But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. -- Brad Knowles brad at shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu Brad does a good job here of explaining a key point that is often overlooked, but must be a top priority when you're entrusted with the administration of a list server(s) and the integrity reputation of the IP addresses associated with it, all while looking after the greater good of your company, institution, etc. -- Don -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Zbigniew Szalbot writes: 1/ Mailman as a discussion list - like the one we're having here. I don't imagine spammers would be setting up their lists as discussion list, would they? I don't actually imagine big time spammers using mailman. They're all about botnets. Big time spammers won't use Mailman, true, but we can't predict how they will format their messages. If formatting messages like Mailman discussion lists makes it more likely they'll be delivered to end users, they'll do that. They avoid getting return mail simply by not running MTA servers! I'd love to see Mailman giving me an option to create either discussion or announcement list with pre-set features for each of them. One of these pre-sets could be in fact the presence or absence of mass-subscribe feature defined per list during list creation. Barry for Mailman 3 has been talking about making Mailman easier to configure, and I'm sure Mark would consider adding improved config tools to 2.2. But (my impression is that) all of the developers have Usenet/devel list backgrounds. Clear and detailed lists of needed features, eg, what currently unconfigurable behavior needs to be configurable, and how. So the mass subscribe feature is a good example of a configuration need, and it needs not only to be on/off, but some kind of rate limit seems to be desirable. (Even though Cyndi's ISP decided not to allow it, it was attractive enough that they considered it seriously.) I think these features would be best described on the wiki (but there doesn't seem to be an obvious place for the community's wishlist as opposed to developer proposals), and discussed on mailman-developers. However, if I understand the current trends, discussion lists are dropped in favour of online forums and newsletter/marketing tools are more and more sought after. On the other hand, the people who can actually contribute code to Mailman are so far more versed in the discussion lists. This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic But IMO it would be quite on-topic for mailman-developers. This kind of post would be more effective in inciting dev activity if more focused. Eg, rather than talking about markets to gain, which sounds good but generally doesn't attract a lot of dev effort, talk about specific tasks and their needs, and the specific features that could be extended or added to satisfy them. Remember, AIUI at least, the devs have little experience with these usages so concrete details of requirements would be very helpful. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hi there, Stephen J. Turnbull: This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic But IMO it would be quite on-topic for mailman-developers. This kind of post would be more effective in inciting dev activity if more focused. Eg, rather than talking about markets to gain, which sounds good but generally doesn't attract a lot of dev effort, talk about specific tasks and their needs, and the specific features that could be extended or added to satisfy them. Remember, AIUI at least, the devs have little experience with these usages so concrete details of requirements would be very helpful. You're absolutely right, but given that I cannot really sponsor new Mailman features I felt not quite an appropriate person to suggest them. I am trying to give some of my time to handle Polish translation of Mailman but this is about all I can give to this project. If there's a space to do so and people willing to discuss what it would take to make Mailman more marketing-wise friendly tool, I'd be happy to contribute. :) Kind regards, -- Zbigniew Szalbot www.LCWords.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz writes: There are two differences with email: 1) there are only spotty and poorly enforced laws against junk email (in part because a lot of it is international and/or hidden) and 2) sending snail mail, faxes, or phoning all cost money--sending emails costs little to nothing, so there are exponentially more of them. No, there's another difference. (3) E-mail can be sent with almost no chance of identifying the sender. This means that the vendor can claim they're being set up at the same time they're spamming. About the only to handle this would be for police to conduct sting operations and make it risky to hire professional spammers running botnets. Hopefully this might also lead down the food chain to the botnets themselves. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Larry Stone writes: Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than other means of communication. Because it's different. First, the costs are several orders of magnitude cheaper. Second, identifying the agent who caused an email to be sent (who doesn't want to be identified) is orders of magnitude harder, let alone forcing them to appear in court. Now have any of them given permission to be added to a mailing list? The software you use is irrelevant. Did they give you permission to send them email? As you explain it, implicitly, they did. Between you and them, legally and ethically, cased closed. The problem is that email operates at internet speed, for good and for bad. ISPs can have their whole IP block blacklisted within seconds after a mailing goes out. They don't have time for drawn out due process; if they receive a complaint, they need to make a decision quickly. Nobody asks for confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone calls. So why is e-mail held to a different standard? Practically speaking, because it's not possible to for random individuals to stop snail mail or phone calls simply by setting up a special-purpose nameserver (or a filter in the MTA of a mega-ISP). To stop snail mail or phone calls, a third party needs to go through the courts. Furthermore, even if I get banned from sending mass mail through the USPS, the rest of my zip code is unaffected. That's not necessarily true if you get your ISP's whole IP block listed on one of the black holes. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Michael Welch writes: I think that bulk adding is a dangerous thing to allow, from the host's viewpoint at a minimum. Who's to say what unscrupulous a-holes are ready to take advantage of that ability. Very dumb ones. I really don't see a major social problem here; as a host, make your users pay a couple months in advance and throttle them to X total recipients/day by default. The small-time spams possible under those conditions are not effective. Really dumb people will rediscover the extremely low cost of email every few weeks, get terminated with extreme prejudice from their ISPs, featured in the local newspaper in one of those there but for the grace of God go I articles with their names changed, become the laughingstock of the neighborhood and have their kid nicknamed Son of Spam. Net social cost will be tolerable (just like drinking, smoking, watching iCarly, running negative ads in your campaign for President, and all the other familiar American vices). What the really unscrupulous a-holes are doing is making bots out of the host's customers. IMO, the real problem is the professional spammers with their botnets and their look-the-other-way IP-block-poisoning pet ISPs. There is no way that more than 1% of the spam I get comes from Mom Pop shops using the mass subscribe feature of Mailman. However, that real problem is a *big* problem, enough so that an awful lot of people have a zero tolerance attitude toward spam. That means that they dog-pile on the easy targets: the dimwits who try to spam using an ISP-provided cPanel Mailman, and so on. Except that they can't identify the dimwits, so they dog-pile on the ISPs hosting the dimwits. But the ISPs can't afford to have that happen too often, so ... voila! draconian restrictions. That also said, we still get occasional folks that say, why the tarnation did you add me to your mail list even when they specifically requested it--they forget what they requested, I suppose. At least they respect us enough not to complain to our host or spamcop. Right. This is part of what I meant above by tolerable social costs. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Brad Knowles writes: I know there are people who use it responsibly, which is why I don't advocate too strongly for its removal. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't get abused, or that we shouldn't do things to try to curb that abuse. I have to disagree. Anything that can be done with the Mailman mass subscribe feature can be done just as effectively with a contact list on Gmail, in theory.[1] It's other aspects of Gmail policy that (so far at least) make that a small enough problem that I've never considered filtering on ^(From|Sender):[EMAIL PROTECTED]. So I think that's the wrong way to phrase it. We (the Mailman community) can't do much to curb abuse without crippling useful features of the software. What we can do is to provide hosting services with tools to implement their own policies. What needs to be done is to give site administrators ways to set policy. *Maybe* the defaults should be set up safely, too, but that's not entirely clear to me. Footnotes: [1] And in practice. Last term I gave a makeup exam to a student who fell prey to a hoax that classes were being cancelled in solidarity with a planned strike by university service workers -- on the day of my midterm. The (confirmed by Google, apparently) source was a throwaway Gmail address. One thing I'll say for the spammer: the English was excellent and a dead ringer for university bureaucratese. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hi all, I have to disagree. Anything that can be done with the Mailman mass subscribe feature can be done just as effectively with a contact list on Gmail, in theory.[1] It's other aspects of Gmail policy that (so far at least) make that a small enough problem that I've never considered filtering on ^(From|Sender):[EMAIL PROTECTED]. Quite a long thread but important issues on their own. Let me just make one point. I think that we're really talking about two contexts: 1/ Mailman as a discussion list - like the one we're having here. I don't imagine spammers would be setting up their lists as discussion list, would they? I don't actually imagine big time spammers using mailman. They're all about botnets. 2/ Mailman as a newsletter/announcement list. I can't sponsor the developers (sad but true) but I'd love to see Mailman giving me an option to create either discussion or announcement list with pre-set features for each of them. One of these pre-sets could be in fact the presence or absence of mass-subscribe feature defined per list during list creation. If I don't really know the people I am giving a list to administer, I would be tempted, especially with an announcement list, to turn off mass subscribe feature. Mailman is getting better and better no doubt about it. However, if I understand the current trends, discussion lists are dropped in favour of online forums and newsletter/marketing tools are more and more sought after. This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic so I will just wrap it up by thanking the developers for a very good software I am able to use! Regards, -- Zbigniew Szalbot www.LCWords.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jul 11, 2008, at 4:18 AM, Zbigniew Szalbot wrote: 2/ Mailman as a newsletter/announcement list. I can't sponsor the developers (sad but true) but I'd love to see Mailman giving me an option to create either discussion or announcement list with pre-set features for each of them. One of these pre-sets could be in fact the presence or absence of mass- subscribe feature defined per list during list creation. Mailman 3 already has a 'list style' infrastructure, so I agree that presets are an important feature. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkh3UB0ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHo4QCeJWueMKJ7k9QR+Ip5+1K1fw4N qksAoKxUWy2H9AftDHrkLksZhEx3GHYX =+IW0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
On Jul 10, 2008, at 7:06 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: It's a bit more work to get rid of junk mail but, again, the law says you have to be removed from their list if you ask. And there are some places to sign up to opt out of receiving mass mailings. The problem with this, is the fact that you can purchase mailing lists that were assembled out of publicly available data, which then pulls you out of any of the individual companies do not mail lists... I have worked with the USPS in the direct mail industry for the past 13 years. Also, another issue is what is called a saturation mailing where you would hit every house on a given postal route. A good share of the time they do those types of mailings it just gets sent to Postal Customer or Current Resident no actual names included in saturation mailing lists... So all of that to say that mass mailings are very hard to get out of because of the list providers that collect and sell your information... And since it's all public knowledge anyway, anyone who wanted to take the time could go through and get the same info on you :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model. Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then the entire ISP gets blacklisted. And some blacklists you simply cannot *EVER* get them to remove you. Personally, I would be happy to see the mass subscribe feature go away completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by default. But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hi friends. I think that bulk adding is a dangerous thing to allow, from the host's viewpoint at a minimum. Who's to say what unscrupulous a-holes are ready to take advantage of that ability. That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that. We are qualifying individual supporters of our nonprofit outside of the list, via snail mail, sign-up sheets, and phone contact. We need to grease the skids for these folks as much as possible. It would seem flaky to make them hoop jump twice. Dealing with confirmed members and donors is MUCH different than dealing with the general public. That also said, we still get occasional folks that say, why the tarnation did you add me to your mail list even when they specifically requested it--they forget what they requested, I suppose. At least they respect us enough not to complain to our host or spamcop. Dreamhost allows subscribing using either Subscribe or Invite. I do not know if they have found a way to put limits on the numbers subscribed without opt-in, but they do allow it. It's funny, their announcement list setup pages have strict anti-spam warnings, but the discussion lists have no such thing. And on the mass subscribe page, the default is subscribe and not invite which seems to me to be an error. Cyndi Norwitz wrote at 08:09 PM 7/9/2008: On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously, I disagree. As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm aware of. Not me. If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff ASAP. Just saying. I appreciate your input. I am curious what other server owners/ISP's do. From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what listowners can do is considered a violation. Yahoogroups allows 10 direct adds per day and makes you click a couple extra links to find the right page. I believe the other large mailing list providers are similar. Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing? If any... - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.redwoodalliance.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:01 -0500 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyndi Norwitz wrote: P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model. Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then the entire ISP gets blacklisted. And some blacklists you simply cannot *EVER* get them to remove you. Actually, by invite model I meant that the user had to click on a link and confirm by signing up on the website. But a fellow user at my ISP tested it and pointed out that, while there is indeed an option to use the link to sign up, you can simply reply to the invite message and that will start your subscription. So I stand corrected on that one. Personally, I would be happy to see the mass subscribe feature go away completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by default. But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. I have mixed feelings. Obviously, as a listowner I know *I* do things responsibly and want the tools to go with it. As someone who could be the victim of an irresponsible listowner, or trying to put myself into the position of an ISP, I realize that the tool can be terribly misused and the software should make it hard or impossible to do that. The person at my ISP I spoke to on the phone said that, in the event of a complaint, they would simply want proof that the person wanted to be added. Every single person I've added to lists I've run on other software (or would add to MM lists if I could) falls into one of 3 categories: someone who has tried and failed to subscribe her/himself and asks me to do it (I keep the email trail); someone who signs up on a paper form and not only gives their email but also checks a box saying add me to the mailing list (I keep the paper); someone I am friends with or have a business relationship with who asks me to add them (no paper trail here usually but I could get the person to write email or call correcting any complaint they might have made by accident (never happened so far)). The ISP person said that would be fine by him. I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks out there. I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be some middle ground. I thought Mark's suggestion of limiting direct adds to a small number per time unit, or my ISP's suggestion of being able to give particular lists or listowners the ability to do direct adds (overruled by his superviser it seems), to be quite reasonable. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Michael Welch wrote: That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that. And I've used it myself on numerous occasions. This is why I haven't made too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by default. I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else. Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to remove it for everyone else. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I thought Mark's suggestion of limiting direct adds to a small number per time unit, or my ISP's suggestion of being able to give particular lists or listowners the ability to do direct adds (overruled by his superviser it seems), to be quite reasonable. Agreed. Of course, now it's up to Mark to actually implement the feature. ;-) -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Right, Brad. Did you note that on our subscribe page, the default radio box is subscribe and not invite? I do not know if that is a site admin setting, but it seems to me it should be the opposite. Brad Knowles wrote at 11:58 AM 7/10/2008: Michael Welch wrote: That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that. And I've used it myself on numerous occasions. This is why I haven't made too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by default. I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else. Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to remove it for everyone else. Right. - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.redwoodalliance.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks out there. I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be some middle ground. End original message. - I think it really comes down to choices, which break down about like this: If you were running your own server and installed your own copy of mailman, you would be able to run it any way you wish. But then you have to maintain it. Or you could find another service provider that allows it, but they may have other issues for you to deal with (like being blacklisted). Or you can just live with the restrictions your ISP has imposed on their shared hosting system. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Brad Knowles wrote: Michael Welch wrote: That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that. And I've used it myself on numerous occasions. This is why I haven't made too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by default. I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else. Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to remove it for everyone else. Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than other means of communication. I know I've mentioned this before but as a side job, I assign soccer referees to soccer games. I need to periodically make announcements to them about upcoming games, etc. These officials are independent contractors - they are not employees. I use Mailman to handle mailings because I can e-mail to them 1) with it addressed to them personally (using Full Personaliztion) and 2) without revealing the addresses of other referees, all without having to BCC: them. Now have any of them given permission to be added to a mailing list? Nope, not one of them. Actually, most people don't even know it goes through a mailing list processor. But they have voluntarily provided their e-mail addresses to me when requesting games. When someone applies for games, I use mass subscribe to add them. I think it's reasonable to conclude that by applying, they have an expectation that I'll use the address they've provided to send them e-mail related to the games they've requested. Just as I'll use the phone numbers they've provided to call them and the snail mail address potentially to send them snail mail. Nobody asks for confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone calls. So why is e-mail held to a different standard? Note that this is my own server on its own address so I have no worries about customers abusing it. But note also that the way I use Mailman for these lists to my referees is very much outside the traditional mailing list model. And by the way, I also do run a few traditional lists and they are very much confirmed opt-in. -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Larry Stone wrote: Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than other means of communication. This is a lot like another case where there is only harm perceived when someone claims that they've been harmed, such as sexual harassment at work. There are one category of things that pretty much everyone can agree to as being wrong, and another category of things about which there may be quite a bit of disagreement. At the end of the day, it's not really sexual harassment until the person on the receiving end says it is. Spam is much the same. So, until someone complains, you're fine. But even if you've operated the most scrupulous system that you can possibly do, as soon as you get that complaint then you've got a problem. In the anti-spam community, over time we have developed some standards by which we say that everyone should operate, and if you can prove that you do that, then pretty much by definition you are not a spammer. There are plenty of others who are not spammers but who do not operate by these rules, and until such time as there is a complaint against them, they're probably okay. But then there are also a lot of shady characters who intentionally shave close to that line, and what should we do about them? It's the combination of that massive amount of grey area, and potential for abuse throughout the grey area, that causes the problems. In order to try to avoid any appearance of impropriety, we set much higher standards so as to try to completely avoid even getting close to the grey area. At least, that's my personal view. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
The esteemed Brad Knowles has said: Personally, I would be happy to see the mass subscribe feature go away completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by default. But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. I am going to go on record as very strongly OPPOSED to removal of the mass subscribe feature. We used it as the only method a new user can subscribe to the list. Our method for new subscribers is to direct them to a web page with a form they fill out. On completion, that form is mailed by a cgi script to the moderators. After moderator review, we manually add those we approve to Mailman through the mass subscribe interface. The two mail subscription ports (-join, -subscribe) are disabled. Some time ago I did a check to see how much spam and how many bogus attempts to subscribe those ports got. Answer: plenty, and it was quite clear that there were several attempts to evade our checks by listers we had removed for list violations. I don't know what you did at AOL, but I'm here to tell you that AOL in general was one big headache right from the get-go, and the source of many disguised attempts to thwart our subscription policies. We're down to two AOL subscribers who are very well known to the moderators. Hank -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
--On Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:42 PM -0600 Hank van Cleef [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The two mail subscription ports (-join, -subscribe) are disabled. How can the Mass Subscriptions options for all new lists be changed to only Invite? I'd like to eliminate the Subscribe option. I looked in the Defaults.py file but did not find this. Don Hone http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone Ohio University -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hank van Cleef wrote: I am going to go on record as very strongly OPPOSED to removal of the mass subscribe feature. We used it as the only method a new user can subscribe to the list. I know there are people who use it responsibly, which is why I don't advocate too strongly for its removal. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't get abused, or that we shouldn't do things to try to curb that abuse. I don't know what you did at AOL, but I'm here to tell you that AOL in general was one big headache right from the get-go, and the source of many disguised attempts to thwart our subscription policies. We're down to two AOL subscribers who are very well known to the moderators. I mostly managed the Internet e-mail gateway system at AOL, but as an old-hand Unix user myself (going back to 1984), I actively tried to get everyone I knew to stop using the AOL client. It tries to make things too easy for the newbie to do, and in the meanwhile it makes things harder for the more computer-savvy user. Most importantly, because they make it trivially easy to hit the report as spam button and they don't spank the crap out of their users who abuse this feature, they really make it much more difficult for the rest of us. Read all of the items in the FAQ that mention AOL. Every single one of them is negative with respect to AOL, and I wrote or edited them all. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:12:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] When someone applies for games, I use mass subscribe to add them. I think it's reasonable to conclude that by applying, they have an expectation that I'll use the address they've provided to send them e-mail related to the games they've requested. Just as I'll use the phone numbers they've provided to call them and the snail mail address potentially to send them snail mail. I agree. Nobody asks for confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone calls. So why is e-mail held to a different standard? I think the question is, why is email held to a LOWER standard? For years and years (and still), if a telemarketer called you, you could say please remove me from your list and they had to comply. Of course some were better about it than others, but generally it worked. And the law was on your side. Now there is a do-not-call list and nearly everyone complies with it. I've had just a handful of unwanted sales calls since it began a couple years ago (not counting the 3-4 a month I get for my business, which uses my home #). It's a bit more work to get rid of junk mail but, again, the law says you have to be removed from their list if you ask. And there are some places to sign up to opt out of receiving mass mailings. Even faxes are regulated. It's illegal to send unwanted commercialfaxes. There are two differences with email: 1) there are only spotty and poorly enforced laws against junk email (in part because a lot of it is international and/or hidden) and 2) sending snail mail, faxes, or phoning all cost money--sending emails costs little to nothing, so there are exponentially more of them. I do the same thing as you do in the sense of being in charge of putting people I know personally or am local to on small lists. Unfortunately, the vast majority of unsolicited email is not small or local or personal. Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:20:04 -0700 From: Dragon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks out there. I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be some middle ground. I think it really comes down to choices, which break down about like this: If you were running your own server and installed your own copy of mailman, you would be able to run it any way you wish. But then you have to maintain it. Or you could find another service provider that allows it, but they may have other issues for you to deal with (like being blacklisted). Or you can just live with the restrictions your ISP has imposed on their shared hosting system. I choose option #4: live with it while at the same time I see if newer versions can have some reasonable options and try to get my ISP to implement them. I do love my ISP and the cost is super reasonable: $10 or $20/month (depending on the plan) for email, domain name service, usenet, tons of storage, the ability to run various things on my shell/unix account, many email boxes and POP service, databases, Wordpress blogs, and as many Mailman mailing lists as I want to set up. This is just a quibble :) Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How can the Mass Subscriptions options for all new lists be changed to only
Invite? I'd like to eliminate the Subscribe option. I looked in the
Defaults.py file but did not find this.
There are no settings for it nor for defaulting subscribe/invite to
invite (although as a result of this thread, there may be in Mailman
2.2). Here's a patch I use to default to invite. Eliminating
subscribe as an option is a bit more involved and I don't have a patch
for it offhand, but one way to do it would be to change
'subscribe_or_invite' from a radio button selection to a hidden field
with a fixed value of 1.
--- mailman-2.1.10b1/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py 2007-12-04
12:03:50.0 -0
800
+++ /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py 2007-12-14
22:42:29.0 -0
800
@@ -1137,7 +1137,7 @@
Label(_('Subscribe these users now or invite them?')),
RadioButtonArray('subscribe_or_invite',
(_('Subscribe'), _('Invite')),
- 0, values=(0, 1))
+ 1, values=(0, 1))
])
table.AddCellInfo(table.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 0, bgcolor=GREY)
table.AddCellInfo(table.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 1, bgcolor=GREY)
--
Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Sigh...this is my ISP's response to my request. At least they did take it seriously and consider it (the option is Mark's suggestion of a severe limit on numbers of subscribers listowners could add per day/week/whatever). We have decided that we are not going to implement this option on our current Listserv setup. Users must be able to reply to their subscription notifications. This alone prevents abuse and protects everyone involved here. If the person in question has an email address, and wants to be on a mailing list, they should be able to respond to one message; confirming their desire to be involved. Obviously, I disagree. As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm aware of. At least it's the only large change they've made to the software so it's still pretty usable. Thanks for your help, Mark. Cyndi P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model. Why not just let the listowner add people but have it not take place until the person responds? My issue isn't with requiring confirmation (though I think written confirmation should be good enough) but with making someone who might be very computer illiterate go to a website to sign up. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously, I disagree. As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm aware of. Not me. If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff ASAP. Just saying. -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:54:59 -0400 From: Jim Popovitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously, I disagree. As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm aware of. Not me. If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff ASAP. Just saying. I appreciate your input. I am curious what other server owners/ISP's do. From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what listowners can do is considered a violation. Yahoogroups allows 10 direct adds per day and makes you click a couple extra links to find the right page. I believe the other large mailing list providers are similar. Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing? If any... Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Cyndi Norwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing? If any... Excellent question. I would have to think, given the prevalence and persistence of spammers, that any ability to force unconfirmed (i.e. non-opt-in) subscriptions would be a violation of most ISP's TOS. So to me, providing the capabilities to disable mass subscriptions would be a good mmcfg.py option. -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz writes: I appreciate your input. I am curious what other server owners/ ISP's do. From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what listowners can do is considered a violation. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a violation, but I would not want to work under such restrictions myself. Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing? If any... I think that probably what I would consider doing if the market would bear it, and courts would enforce it, is restrict mass subscription privileges to people willing to pay upfront for a multi-year contract, or who pay substantially higher prices for a premium service. If they violate the TOS, they get no refund. If they've been well-behaved but want out early, I'd pay them back pro rata. I also wouldn't advertise the service beyond the bare minimum ... only people who ask for it get it. But somebody who's been around for years and is running a reputable list, hey, that's not that hard to check. I would think it would be easy enough for them to find out that much about you and your service; I think they *do* know you well enough. I'm not criticizing their policy, especially if they're inexpensive, though. Making such judgments is not cheap. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hi all, I am finally doing a followup on this. Mark asked me to vet his proposed solution to my ISP and see what they said. They actually took it quite seriously and discussed it. I just got a phone call from the head guy in that department who wanted to speak to me directly about it. (Mark, I'm sending you some private email with his contact info.) Basically, they are very concerned about spammers using their system. Their first response to my request was to wonder why I thought a spammer wouldn't be patient enough to add addresses to their lists slowly. After talking more with me, what he said was that he would be interested in the feature and would use it *IF* it could be turned on per list or per user, as opposed to a global on or off. He said he'd want to have a conversation with each listowner to make sure they really understood how to keep documentation proving how someone signed up for the list (email trail, paper from a signup sheet at an event, etc). He said he'd gladly turn on the feature for my lists after hearing that I knew how to do this. I pointed out to him that if it was per list, then I'd be bothering them every time I set up a new list (I have a lot of little ones). He agrees that per user would be much better, if it were possible. I said I'd heard hints (am I right?) that MM might be moving in that direction, allowing listowners to administer (or at least see) all their lists together. It would make life a lot easier if the ISP could simply say, okay, any list that Cyndi runs can have this new feature. So that's the feedback. Thanks for all your time with this. Cyndi Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:51:02 -0700 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere too. The Mass Subscribe feature has two settings: on and off. No it doesn't. My ISP has chosen to turn off Mass Subscribe. Only the invite feature is left. This is not a setting. It is a code modification done somewhere downstream of the Mailman project. My request is for an intermediate step that the provider can set. Something like subscribing one name at a time (so it's too much of a pain for a spammer to put in a thousand names) or up to 10 a day, or something that will make a large provider feel more comfortable but not completely remove the feature from the users. Turning off mass subscribe and leaving only mass invite is a modification not done by us. This request might better be directed to whoever made this modification. We fully sympathize with the difficulty and frustration of dealing with users who can't manage to successfully accept an invitation, and the problem of explaining to the VIP that the software doesn't allow this. I can see that actual site settings something like MAXIMUM_LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBES = 10 LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBE_WINDOW = days(7) to allow at most 10 subscribes in any 7 day period, might be an alternative that ISPs would use, but OTOH, I think that an ISP that choses to disable mass subscribe has likely done this in response to large ISP/email services that demand that lists be fully confirmed opt-in in order to be whitelisted, so they may not be willing to allow even that. Before I invest any effort in implementing such an option, I'd be interested in an opinion from your ISP as to whether they would use it. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere too. The Mass Subscribe feature has two settings: on and off. No it doesn't. My ISP has chosen to turn off Mass Subscribe. Only the invite feature is left. This is not a setting. It is a code modification done somewhere downstream of the Mailman project. My request is for an intermediate step that the provider can set. Something like subscribing one name at a time (so it's too much of a pain for a spammer to put in a thousand names) or up to 10 a day, or something that will make a large provider feel more comfortable but not completely remove the feature from the users. Turning off mass subscribe and leaving only mass invite is a modification not done by us. This request might better be directed to whoever made this modification. We fully sympathize with the difficulty and frustration of dealing with users who can't manage to successfully accept an invitation, and the problem of explaining to the VIP that the software doesn't allow this. I can see that actual site settings something like MAXIMUM_LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBES = 10 LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBE_WINDOW = days(7) to allow at most 10 subscribes in any 7 day period, might be an alternative that ISPs would use, but OTOH, I think that an ISP that choses to disable mass subscribe has likely done this in response to large ISP/email services that demand that lists be fully confirmed opt-in in order to be whitelisted, so they may not be willing to allow even that. Before I invest any effort in implementing such an option, I'd be interested in an opinion from your ISP as to whether they would use it. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:51:02 -0700 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can see that actual site settings something like MAXIMUM_LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBES = 10 LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBE_WINDOW = days(7) to allow at most 10 subscribes in any 7 day period, might be an alternative that ISPs would use, but OTOH, I think that an ISP that choses to disable mass subscribe has likely done this in response to large ISP/email services that demand that lists be fully confirmed opt-in in order to be whitelisted, so they may not be willing to allow even that. Before I invest any effort in implementing such an option, I'd be interested in an opinion from your ISP as to whether they would use it. Thank you, Mark. Something like this would be perfect. I just posted to my ISP's usenet group where they have discussions like this. I will let you know what they say. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere too. This is kind of an edge case. You're getting close to territory that would probably be better handled over on the mailman-developers list, although you're not really discussing any particular specific code changes that you've come up with. If nothing else, I know a lot of Mailman developers are on that list exclusively, and there are only a few developers on this list. I don't see a problem with having this discussion continue on the mailman-users list for now (at least you'll get the opportunity for some feedback from other mailman list/site admins who are not on the mailman-developers list), but if you get deeper into the development issues then you will probably want to consider moving the discussion to the other list. I'll leave that decision to you, as to whether or not you want to focus on involving more Mailman developers in the discussion, or if you want to focus on involving more list/site admins. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
(figures, apparently my mail program is one of those *broken* ones so apologies, this originally sent off list) Hello Cyndi, I do see where you are coming from, but abuse issues can go the opposite direction from your description, and usually does. The host I work for does NOT turn off mass subscription capability (but also only provides the web interface). With that said, our abuse policy states that all users must be double-opt in. Whether this is done via Mailman or they're own script and database is up to the user, but they had better be able to provide proof that the subscriber was double-opt in. The reason for this is simple. Most hosts providing Mailman (or similar package) do so on shared servers (our servers have up to 2000 lists per server). If *for any reason what-so-ever* a user's list causes an ISP to take notice, the ISP will most likely take notice by blocking that shared server affecting all 1999 other lists on that server. Most ISP's will then specifically request proof that the message was requested and not unsolicited, and the best (and yes, legal way) to prove that is if you have proof that the user was opted into the list TWICE. In our eyes, the problem has nothing to do with some spammer mass subscribing users (we have NEVER had this problem, actually... unless the admin gets they're password compromised). It has everything to do with covering our customers butts. :-) Just offering the other side of the issue. Krystal Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere too. The Mass Subscribe feature has two settings: on and off. Although Mailman was designed for users to self-install, and presumably they can trust themselves not to abuse it, the truth is that an awful lot of Mailman list owners do not have access to the full software, just the web interface. My use of Mailman is through my ISP, but there are other users who use software installed by a business group, university, or other entity. My ISP has chosen to turn off Mass Subscribe. Only the invite feature is left. I completely understand why they have done this and I have to concur. They have thousands of users and hundreds of mailing lists. The potential for abuse is great. They did a mass subscribe for me when I transfered my lists from another provider, but they're not going to do one or two subscribers here, three or four there, and so on. It's a huge pain in the neck for users not to be able to add subscribers directly. For my larger lists, I prefer subscribers to do it themselves, but I have the occasional person who just can't manage it. But I also run smaller lists, including several for a nonprofit, and it's just embararssing that I can't add the board members and others who ask me to. My request is for an intermediate step that the provider can set. Something like subscribing one name at a time (so it's too much of a pain for a spammer to put in a thousand names) or up to 10 a day, or something that will make a large provider feel more comfortable but not completely remove the feature from the users. Thanks, Cyndi @ sonic.net -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/zipfel%40greenacrestechnology.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Brad Knowles writes: I don't see a problem with having this discussion continue on the mailman-users list for now (at least you'll get the opportunity for some feedback from other mailman list/site admins who are not on the mailman-developers list), I think the very political nature of this proposal means it should be on Mailman-Users. Mailman developers tend to have shell (if not root) on their hosts. Mailman-Users is a better place to get people to discuss this with their ISPs. Note that people whose ISPs permit mass-subscribe might want to get their opinions about this, too. Such an option might make a lot of ISPs happier with Mailman, even if those like Cyndi's decide to continue draconian policies. But we need to find out what they want/find acceptable! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hi Krystal, I'd be interested to know what you call double opt-in. Is it a web subscription + email reply with the cookie, or double-that (and in that case, what is the scenario). FWIW I don't think the option Cindy proposes passes Occam's razor. For the moment it looks like lots of complexity for a need that is not well defined and certainly not generic. If the ISP has deliberately crippled Mailman's interface up to the point it's not usable any more, they should probably try and come up with a solution; or at least try to explain (to the devs or the users) why and how. -- Fil -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Fil wrote: I'd be interested to know what you call double opt-in. Is it a web subscription + email reply with the cookie, or double-that (and in that case, what is the scenario). My understanding of this is that double opt-in and what I call confirmed opt-in are the same thing and that they mean 1. User requests to be on the list via a web form, email, etc. This is the first opt-in. Note that strictly speaking, this probably precludes unsolicited invitations, although an invitation in response to any show of interest such as even checking a box on a paper form would be OK. 2. An email with confirmation instructions is sent to the users address to be subscribed to verify that the person who receives mail at that address really wants to be on the list. 3. Only after the user follows the confirmation process of step 2 does the user get added to the list. That's the second opt-in. The key idea in this process is that the user's email address is only added to the list after an affirmative response to an email sent to that address. I expect Krystal will correct me if I'm mistaken. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Hello, Let me first say I was in no way competing with Cyndi's suggestion, I should probably have prefaced by saying I think the option provided is a good one. And again, we have no modifications to Mailman that is not built in to modify (we have turned off personalization for example, but no code modifications). Double Opt-In is simply that the user stated twice that they want to subscribe to the list. In Mailman's option, Double Opt-In would be 'Confirm'. Basically, it forces the subscriber to say yes I want on this list, and then say yes, I really really really do want to be on this list. This way, if someone like say, Spam Arrest contacts us and says we have X spam complaint, we can contact the user and say what's up, and they say here's when the user subscribed, here's when they said yea I really want that, and now Spam Arrest leaves us alone and the list is not blacklisted. It's one of those double edged swords. In our case, it's not that we don't trust our users (but have a TOS in place of course just in case), it's that we don't trust other ISP's and Spam blackholes. For this reason, the burden of proof is placed on the account holder. If a user mass-subscribes say, 10,000 members from a list of addresses they bought somewhere else, that user has absolutely no way to provide proof that the subscriber ever opted in to that list SPECIFICALLY. However, on the flip side, if a user is moving from another host, or has multiple lists, or they're own signup pages/database, etc... they still have they're own proof but are using the mass subscription option to use. Hence why I personally do not think removing it entirely is a grand idea, and why offering a way for hosts to control the subscription process to a point could be very helpful. Krystal Fil wrote: Hi Krystal, I'd be interested to know what you call double opt-in. Is it a web subscription + email reply with the cookie, or double-that (and in that case, what is the scenario). FWIW I don't think the option Cindy proposes passes Occam's razor. For the moment it looks like lots of complexity for a need that is not well defined and certainly not generic. If the ISP has deliberately crippled Mailman's interface up to the point it's not usable any more, they should probably try and come up with a solution; or at least try to explain (to the devs or the users) why and how. -- Fil -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
That is EXACTLY right. Mark Sapiro wrote: My understanding of this is that double opt-in and what I call confirmed opt-in are the same thing and that they mean 1. User requests to be on the list via a web form, email, etc. This is the first opt-in. Note that strictly speaking, this probably precludes unsolicited invitations, although an invitation in response to any show of interest such as even checking a box on a paper form would be OK. 2. An email with confirmation instructions is sent to the users address to be subscribed to verify that the person who receives mail at that address really wants to be on the list. 3. Only after the user follows the confirmation process of step 2 does the user get added to the list. That's the second opt-in. The key idea in this process is that the user's email address is only added to the list after an affirmative response to an email sent to that address. I expect Krystal will correct me if I'm mistaken. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
