Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Amith: "You appear at this point to be insisting that your own opinion is
simply a matter of fact, so I guess we're at an impasse."

Well, pardon me, but aren't you doing the EXACT same thing that you accused
me of doing?  Your characterization of the "flip" side for American Muslims
is just you passing off your own opinion as fact.

Your position doesn't even make sense, since, for example, Muslims who
voted for Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primaries will certainly have
more credibility in the eyes of progressive outsiders when critiquing other
Muslims. It has become useful in undermining Islamaphobic propaganda.


On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> *I'd note, however, Sheldon, that you made this argument for ANY ETHNIC
> GROUP, not just your own, and you did not even appear to limit it to race
> related issues.
>
> Take the flip side for American Muslims. Not only are they seen as less
> sincere and credible when they criticize Islamic extremist groups, the
> insinuation that President Obama is a Muslim is used precisely to discredit
> his (so-called) counter-terrorism policies. It is almost the exact
> opposite: being Muslim does not give you greater credibility when
> criticizing other people who are namesake Muslims (i.e. ISIS), it
> undermines it.
>
> You appear at this point to be insisting that your own opinion is simply a
> matter of fact, so I guess we're at an impasse.
>
> - Amith
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> "Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
>> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more
>> seriously
>> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, "
>>
>> Actually, quite true.  The most recent example of this is Bernie Sanders
>> publicly criticizing Netanyahu and not going to the AIPAC conference.  Even
>> the mainstream media made note as to how his dissent, as the Jewish
>> presidential contender, made Jewish voices opposed to Israel's government
>> more respectable.
>>
>> In addition, in my own liefetime experience as an American Jew, the same
>> has applied.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>>
>>> @DW
>>>
>>> Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think
>>> we
>>> should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
>>> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more
>>> seriously
>>> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also
>>> loaded
>>> in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
>>> matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
>>> understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking
>>> about
>>> race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
>>> Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
>>> discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.
>>>
>>> "I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a
>>> lot
>>> of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
>>> regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
>>> least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
>>> their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
>>> map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid
>>> of."
>>>
>>> Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
>>> anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being
>>> anti-Zionist *as
>>> Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
>>>
>>> allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
>>> political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
>>> thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
>>> the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice.
>>> Her
>>> argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
>>> identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
>>> the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes
>>> it
>>> relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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*I'd note, however, Sheldon, that you made this argument for ANY ETHNIC
GROUP, not just your own, and you did not even appear to limit it to race
related issues.

Take the flip side for American Muslims. Not only are they seen as less
sincere and credible when they criticize Islamic extremist groups, the
insinuation that President Obama is a Muslim is used precisely to discredit
his (so-called) counter-terrorism policies. It is almost the exact
opposite: being Muslim does not give you greater credibility when
criticizing other people who are namesake Muslims (i.e. ISIS), it
undermines it.

You appear at this point to be insisting that your own opinion is simply a
matter of fact, so I guess we're at an impasse.

- Amith

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:

> "Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, "
>
> Actually, quite true.  The most recent example of this is Bernie Sanders
> publicly criticizing Netanyahu and not going to the AIPAC conference.  Even
> the mainstream media made note as to how his dissent, as the Jewish
> presidential contender, made Jewish voices opposed to Israel's government
> more respectable.
>
> In addition, in my own liefetime experience as an American Jew, the same
> has applied.
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> *
>>
>> @DW
>>
>> Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think
>> we
>> should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
>> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more
>> seriously
>> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also loaded
>> in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
>> matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
>> understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking
>> about
>> race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
>> Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
>> discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.
>>
>> "I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a
>> lot
>> of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
>> regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
>> least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
>> their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
>> map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid of."
>>
>> Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
>> anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being
>> anti-Zionist *as
>> Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
>>
>> allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
>> political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
>> thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
>> the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice. Her
>> argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
>> identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
>> the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes
>> it
>> relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over both Jewish identity and
>> Palestine itself?
>>
>> "Given the huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
>> politics, it's necessary to emphasis whenever it comes up, that not all
>> members of this community follow the Zionist party line. How is that
>> "privileging" anything whatsoever?"
>>
>> Again, where does she argue this? I think you're reading other arguments
>> into her piece. But in either case, to answer, you are self-admitting that
>> there is a "huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
>> politics". If you are openly stating that that is the reason why Jewish
>> dissenting voices need to be promoted, I'm at a loss. That is, by
>> definition, privilege. It is the same as saying white people had greater
>> political influence (and still do) so we 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, "

Actually, quite true.  The most recent example of this is Bernie Sanders
publicly criticizing Netanyahu and not going to the AIPAC conference.  Even
the mainstream media made note as to how his dissent, as the Jewish
presidential contender, made Jewish voices opposed to Israel's government
more respectable.

In addition, in my own liefetime experience as an American Jew, the same
has applied.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> @DW
>
> Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think we
> should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also loaded
> in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
> matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
> understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking about
> race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
> Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
> discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.
>
> "I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a
> lot
> of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
> regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
> least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
> their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
> map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid of."
>
> Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
> anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being anti-Zionist
> *as
> Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
> allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
> political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
> thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
> the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice. Her
> argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
> identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
> the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes it
> relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over both Jewish identity and
> Palestine itself?
>
> "Given the huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
> politics, it's necessary to emphasis whenever it comes up, that not all
> members of this community follow the Zionist party line. How is that
> "privileging" anything whatsoever?"
>
> Again, where does she argue this? I think you're reading other arguments
> into her piece. But in either case, to answer, you are self-admitting that
> there is a "huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
> politics". If you are openly stating that that is the reason why Jewish
> dissenting voices need to be promoted, I'm at a loss. That is, by
> definition, privilege. It is the same as saying white people had greater
> political influence (and still do) so we need more of them in anti-racist
> causes. If they get upset or exhibit intolerance toward blacks in the
> group, we should nonetheless tolerate it because of how politically
> significant they are. "Privilege" in a nut-shell.
>
> Re: Weir, I think she has made some decisions I disagree with, but I feel
> that way about virtually everyone I've met in left circles. I think the
> characterization you have of both her website and her talks is completely
> off. Even a brief perusal of her website makes it clear that her advocacy
> is not based on American exceptionalism. It is simply geared toward an
> American audience ("If only you people knew!!!"), much in the same way left
> anti-war organizers have always emphasized "the war is at home," etc. To
> the extent that Walt/Mearsheimer-style realism appears on her website or in
> her advocacy (and mind you, it appears everywhere else including 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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@DW

Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think we
should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also loaded
in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking about
race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.

"I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a lot
of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid of."

Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being anti-Zionist *as
Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice. Her
argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes it
relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over both Jewish identity and
Palestine itself?

"Given the huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
politics, it's necessary to emphasis whenever it comes up, that not all
members of this community follow the Zionist party line. How is that
"privileging" anything whatsoever?"

Again, where does she argue this? I think you're reading other arguments
into her piece. But in either case, to answer, you are self-admitting that
there is a "huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
politics". If you are openly stating that that is the reason why Jewish
dissenting voices need to be promoted, I'm at a loss. That is, by
definition, privilege. It is the same as saying white people had greater
political influence (and still do) so we need more of them in anti-racist
causes. If they get upset or exhibit intolerance toward blacks in the
group, we should nonetheless tolerate it because of how politically
significant they are. "Privilege" in a nut-shell.

Re: Weir, I think she has made some decisions I disagree with, but I feel
that way about virtually everyone I've met in left circles. I think the
characterization you have of both her website and her talks is completely
off. Even a brief perusal of her website makes it clear that her advocacy
is not based on American exceptionalism. It is simply geared toward an
American audience ("If only you people knew!!!"), much in the same way left
anti-war organizers have always emphasized "the war is at home," etc. To
the extent that Walt/Mearsheimer-style realism appears on her website or in
her advocacy (and mind you, it appears everywhere else including on the
Left) it is one of about 10 different perspectives, wherein the only common
theme is opposition to Israeli policy. I also do not agree with your
reading of her talks. From what I've seen, she has tried to speak out when
loonies start attacking "the Jews"; perhaps she could do better, but that
sounds like an attempt at witch-hunting to me. There would be very few left
on the left, including at least one board member of JVP, if these standards
were applied across the board, and certainly if they were applied to
commentary about other ethnic groups. I think it is obvious that the
Movement has changed in its political character particularly over the last
few years and there is a lack of serious understanding of racism within the
movement. I think the comments above, while certainly not "racist," exhibit
a certain level of tone-deafness about the issue.



- Amith

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/29/16 10:07 AM, DW via Marxism wrote:

Weir, besides have zero understanding of Imperialism as a class, is notable
because she refuses to take up blatant anti-Jewish bigotry when it's thrown
in her face on the many right-wing, tea-party like radio stations she
appears on. Some of these broadcasts are on YouTube or on those networks
steaming audio. She simply sits there and avoids confronting such bigotry.
Among many Palestinian solidarity activists, this is unforgivable.


A lot of these problems are rooted in the crisis of Marxism. When I 
joined the SWP in 1967, the axis of Palestinian solidarity was in the 
overlapping spheres of radical nationalism and Marxism. Palestinian 
guerrillas identified with Che Guevara and the Trotskyist movement 
worldwide was capable of rallying people around class-based slogans and 
analysis. People like Peter Buch and Jon Rothschild used to speak to 
thousands of people on campuses around the country. In 1973 I organized 
a Militant Forum on the Yom Kippur war in Houston that drew 125 people, 
including just about every radical Arab student in the area as well as 
the local TV station.


So what happened? The left imploded. The USSR went kaput. The 
Palestinian solidarity movement on campus emerged around BDS but with 
little involvement from Marxists. You also had a development of 
"realists" opposed to Zionism like Mearsheimer and Walt, as well as 
liberals fed up with the settlers. You also had Hamas that screwed 
things up with suicide bombing. A complete mess for the most part.


In my opinion Allison Weir is a person whose views are shaped by the 
general milieu, one that is not favorable to a class analysis. In the 
1970s she would have barely gotten attention. We need to change the 
objective circumstances in order to promote a POV that can serve the 
Palestinian cause more effectively. That unfortunately can not be done 
overnight.

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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[DW via Marxism]

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This discussion is a mine field. I'm only going to comment on the original
post and not the cross discussion/flame war that appears to be brewing. I
will make a short comment on Allison Weir.

I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a lot
of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid of.

I find it odd her comments as she's lived in the US (though clearly
ensconced in the Academy) and should know that with 5 1/2 million
Jewish-Americans the politics surrounding Israel, Zionism and the
Palestinians is more or less a regular discussion piece around the dinner
table when issues of their own ethnic background arise. How can it be any
different? How is this a from a "Jewish privileged" POV?? We have been
*pounded* into viewing the Holocaust and Israel as interlinked. We were
dragged to "Israel Day Parades" and "Free Soviet Jews" marches in NYC by the*
hundreds of thousands*!

Elia writes:

"Jewish voices are welcome, of course, in the global denunciation of Zionism
as a racist ideology. Identifying oneself as Jewish when one speaks out
against Israel’s policies also helps dismantle the accusation that seeking
justice for Palestinians is anti-Semitic. Yet there is an inevitable risk
associated with the ongoing privileging of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
exceptions. It is these “exceptions,” then, that Palestinian rights
activists place on a pedestal."

Whaa? So she's denouncing Palestinians and other solidarity
activists who "place on a pedestal" Jewish-Americans who denounce Israel.
Again, WTF?? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. WTF is she asking for
and who, who pray tell is she appealing to? If you want Jewish-Americans or
Palestinians to point to these Jewish-Americans as proving Israel
specifically and Zionism more generally then don't condemn people who are
pointing this out!!! This "privilege checking" here is utter
crap...especially in the utter almost metaphysical way she is trying to
prove her point.

The other point, not brought out by her, is that it's not about "Jews" but
"Jewish-Americans". Jewish-Americas are, *exactly* like Italian-Americans,
Greek-Americans, etc a hyphenated white American sub-ethnic group. The
operative term being white and *American* (By which I mean citizens of the
US). The 'group' as amorphous and heterogeneous as it is, has it's own
dynamics that are an ongoing discussion about it's relationship to Israel.
Given the huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
politics, it's necessary to emphasis whenever it comes up, that not all
members of this community follow the Zionist party line. How is that
"privileging" anything whatsoever?

Lastly on Alison Weir. Most people on this list know that Jewish Voices for
Peace broke relations with her. (in turn, few notable pro-Palestinian
activists like Paul Larudee have broken ties with JVP). Her argument boils
down to that "If only Americans knew" about the power and influence the
Israeli's have via their Jewish agents in the US (AIPAC, etc), then US
policy would somehow be pro-Palestinian or at least not pro-Israel. She as
part of a wing of very non-Marxist academics and speakers who are,
objectively, ideological decedents of the old 1950s era "Arab Lobby" who
argued that US Imperialism's interests (especially with regard to building
an anti-Soviet block in the Arab world) lie with anti-Israeli Arab states
and not with Israel. Her politics are very much like the more staid
academics John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt who try to prove the same
thesis in their book "The Israel Lobby". (they do a far better job of this
than Weir but they are equally wrong in their thesis).

Weir, besides have zero understanding of Imperialism as a class, is notable
because she refuses to take up blatant anti-Jewish bigotry when it's thrown
in her face on the many right-wing, tea-party like radio stations she
appears on. Some of these broadcasts are on YouTube or on those networks
steaming audio. She simply sits there and avoids confronting such bigotry.
Among many Palestinian solidarity activists, this is unforgivable.

David W.
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Actually, I would find it suspicious to have white people condemn Bill
Cosby, especially in a public setting, given the history of
institutionalized racism and lynching in the USA..

The point I have been making here about the insider perspective having more
credibility has nothing to do with Zionism or an anti-Palestinian
narrative. Many anti-Zionist Jews and non-Zionist Jews would agree.  It
seems that you conflate anything you don't like about what's going on in
the Jewish community into an attack on Zionism.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 11:04 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> "Do you really not get the concept that when members of an ethnic group -
> ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by other members of the same
> group, those comments are taken more seriously that those of outsiders?"
>
> No, I do not agree with this. It depends highly on the subject matter and
> the nature of the criticism. Moreover, when we are talking about issues
> that are fundamentally related to race and rights, I think saying that
> members of the "same" ethnic group have greater credibility is essentially
> a validation of the racism in question. I do not think that is necessarily
> unique to Zionism, but it applies.
>
> I am also not blind to the fact that, from a pragmatic standpoint, what
> you are saying is simply a bitter fact of the world we live in. But I do
> not think it is ethical or strategic to leave this unquestioned. It is
> fundamentally what the issue of Zionism is -- that Jewish people from any
> part of the world are entitled to a say in the fate of Palestine, whereas
> the Palestinians and those who identify woth them are secondary and
> presumably nefarious.
>
> To make the point, I do not think most reasonable people would find it
> suspicious to hear a non-Muslim condemn ISIS, a white person condemn Bill
> Cosby, etc. Maybe in some contexts, but that certainly isn't the norm.
>
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> What is "simple" about that?  Do you really not get the concept that when
>> members of an ethnic group - ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by
>> other members of the same group, those comments are taken more seriously
>> that those of outsiders?  It's all about being on the inside giving one a
>> better vantage point.  This has nothing to do with "Zionist racism" or any
>> other bogeyman you choose to summon because you're frustrated.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:58 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
>>
>>> "Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel
>>> are to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
>>> anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "
>>>
>>> What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
>>> That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
>>> Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
>>> seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to
>>> black people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to
>>> white people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
>>> analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
>>> they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
>>> hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
>>> Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
>>> them.
>>>
>>> In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in
>>> the long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
>>> that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
>>> the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.
>>>
>>> - Amith
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>>>
 "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing
 privileging of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
 This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly
 accepting the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very
 few
 exceptions. "

 Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
 his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
 Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
 It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
 US Black Establishment over those made by 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Note also who's commenting on the Facebook post re: Stanford. Most of
the people are criticizing Stanford SJP after they admitted what they did,
or praising them for admitting to a "mistake" (even though they did no such
thing). Tony Greenstein and the braindead degenerate blogger who slandered
Counter-Punch are still defending the Stanford students *even after they
admitted to asking the refugee speaker not to challenge Israel's right to
exist*. Even after the students have essentially validated the speaker's
claim that she felt it necessary to call off the event due to this request,
these parasites insist that the issue was Alison Weir's alleged
anti-Semitism.

That alone should validate the concerns in listed in NE's article (the
original topic) about these openly racist tendencies on the left.
Completely specious claims about anti-Semitism (in this case, a false
explanation of an event cancellation over a person accused very
tangentially of anti-Semitism giving speaking tips to a speaker / being in
the audience) are being invoked to justify shutting down anti-Zionism (in
this case, a speaker wanting to challenge the legitimacy of the regime that
dispossessed her). This is the effect of ensuring that the conversation
about Zionism largely remains an internal Jewish community issue, or where
narratives of Jewish victimhood are given knee-jerk validation by leftists
in the context of Palestine solidarity.

Nada Elia writes, "when it comes to the Question of Palestine, we have been
plagued for decades with a narrative of Jewish victimhood that completely
erased any mention of Palestinian loss, the ongoing Nakba. "

That is almost a literal description of what happened at Stanford.

- Amith

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:57 AM, A.R. G  wrote:

> Kevin, pls see this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jKqkm5j7qd4
>
> Again, the only issue with Alison was that one of those "excellent written
> materials" questioned Israel's right to exist. That excellent material was
> not written by her. That was the issue that Alison turned out to be: the
> flyer she brought sparked a disagreement that made the speaker -- not the
> students -- call off the event. Alison Weir's presence was tangential, and
> technically the students didnt cancel the event at all -- the speaker did.
>
> I'm going off what both Paul and Amena (the speaker) said combined with
> the fact that the students have since conceded that they did, in fact, ask
> the speaker not to challenge Israel's right to exist:
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/stanford-students-for-justice-in-palestine/on-the-events-of-april-6th-2016/1019432714815563
>
> I posted links to a video interview and longer discussion about it earlier.
>
> As for whether Paul was naive or disingenuous about Weir's presence in
> the audience, her speaking tips, or bringing flyers, does it matter? That
> is a truly bizzarre reason to cancel an event even if it were the actual
> reason given that it was not, in fact, Weir's event.
>
> And if it was the reason, then why did they concede that they asked the
> speaker not to challenge Israel's right to exist? Answer: they lied
>
> On Friday, April 29, 2016, Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> *
>>
>> "A.R. G" wrote:
>>
>> > She [Alison Weir] wasn't the issue;
>> > he was correct.
>>
>> In the quote I cited, Larudee didn't say "she wasn't the issue." He said,
>> "We had no idea that Alison would turn out to be an issue." There's a
>> difference. He admits she turned out to be an issue, but he claims the tour
>> organizers didn't anticipate that. Given the controversy surrounding Weir,
>> Larudee and the other tour organizers were either incredibly naive, or
>> Larudee is being disingenuous. I will leave it to others to decide which
>> seems more likely.
>>
>> > She was in the audience
>>
>> She didn't just happen to be in the audience. The coordinator of the
>> tour, Paul Larudee, invited her to participate in the event. Not only did
>> he ask her to bring her "excellent written materials," he also asked her to
>> "meet with Amena [Elashkar] and give her advice on reaching American
>> audiences." Yet he claims Weir was not "intended...to have any role in the
>> presentation at Stanford"! No, of course not. She was just invited to 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism]

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"A.R. G" wrote: 

> She [Alison Weir] wasn't the issue; 
> he was correct.

In the quote I cited, Larudee didn't say "she wasn't the issue." He said, "We 
had no idea that Alison would turn out to be an issue." There's a difference. 
He admits she turned out to be an issue, but he claims the tour organizers 
didn't anticipate that. Given the controversy surrounding Weir, Larudee and the 
other tour organizers were either incredibly naive, or Larudee is being 
disingenuous. I will leave it to others to decide which seems more likely. 

> She was in the audience

She didn't just happen to be in the audience. The coordinator of the tour, Paul 
Larudee, invited her to participate in the event. Not only did he ask her to 
bring her "excellent written materials," he also asked her to "meet with Amena 
[Elashkar] and give her advice on reaching American audiences." Yet he claims 
Weir was not "intended...to have any role in the presentation at Stanford"! No, 
of course not. She was just invited to bring her "excellent written materials" 
and coach a speaker on "reaching American audiences"! 

> a flyer she brought (written by a PLO advisor) 
> said something about Israel not having the right 
> to exist. The organizers made an issue about that 
> flyer, so the speaker (who agreed with the "
> flyer's content) freaked out and called off 
> the event.

That isn't what Larudee says. He says, "some members of the SJP immediately 
objected to Alison’s presence, perhaps assuming she was going to speak, and 
also to the presence of her book and the If Americans Knew materials."

--Kevin  



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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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"Do you really not get the concept that when members of an ethnic group -
ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by other members of the same
group, those comments are taken more seriously that those of outsiders?"

No, I do not agree with this. It depends highly on the subject matter and
the nature of the criticism. Moreover, when we are talking about issues
that are fundamentally related to race and rights, I think saying that
members of the "same" ethnic group have greater credibility is essentially
a validation of the racism in question. I do not think that is necessarily
unique to Zionism, but it applies.

I am also not blind to the fact that, from a pragmatic standpoint, what you
are saying is simply a bitter fact of the world we live in. But I do not
think it is ethical or strategic to leave this unquestioned. It is
fundamentally what the issue of Zionism is -- that Jewish people from any
part of the world are entitled to a say in the fate of Palestine, whereas
the Palestinians and those who identify woth them are secondary and
presumably nefarious.

To make the point, I do not think most reasonable people would find it
suspicious to hear a non-Muslim condemn ISIS, a white person condemn Bill
Cosby, etc. Maybe in some contexts, but that certainly isn't the norm.

On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:

> What is "simple" about that?  Do you really not get the concept that when
> members of an ethnic group - ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by
> other members of the same group, those comments are taken more seriously
> that those of outsiders?  It's all about being on the inside giving one a
> better vantage point.  This has nothing to do with "Zionist racism" or any
> other bogeyman you choose to summon because you're frustrated.
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:58 PM, A.R. G  > wrote:
>
>> "Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel are
>> to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
>> anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "
>>
>> What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
>> That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
>> Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
>> seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to
>> black people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to
>> white people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
>> analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
>> they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
>> hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
>> Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
>> them.
>>
>> In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in
>> the long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
>> that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
>> the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.
>>
>> - Amith
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz > > wrote:
>>
>>> "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging
>>> of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
>>> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
>>> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
>>> exceptions. "
>>>
>>> Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
>>> his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
>>> Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
>>> It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
>>> US Black Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging"
>>> the criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
>>> non-Palestinian.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
>>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
>>> > wrote:
>>>
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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What is "simple" about that?  Do you really not get the concept that when
members of an ethnic group - ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by
other members of the same group, those comments are taken more seriously
that those of outsiders?  It's all about being on the inside giving one a
better vantage point.  This has nothing to do with "Zionist racism" or any
other bogeyman you choose to summon because you're frustrated.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:58 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> "Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel are
> to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
> anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "
>
> What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
> That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
> Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
> seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".
>
> I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to
> black people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to
> white people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
> analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
> they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
> hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
> Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
> them.
>
> In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in
> the long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
> that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
> the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.
>
> - Amith
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging
>> of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
>> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
>> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
>> exceptions. "
>>
>> Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
>> his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
>> Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
>> It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
>> US Black Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging"
>> the criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
>> non-Palestinian.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> Nada Elia making precisely the point about Jewish privilege and
>>> chauvinism
>>> that the assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou
>>> and
>>> I over the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>>>
>>> One of several very good articles by this scholar.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/it-is-time-to-stop-celebrating-jewish-dissent-in-the-palestine-solidarity-movement/
>>>
>>> The list of BDS successes seems to grow longer every day.  More
>>> professional associations are endorsing the academic boycott of Israel,
>>> cultural workers continue to denounce Israeli abuses, and labor unions,
>>> churches, even cities are divesting from companies that benefit from
>>> Israel’s illegal practices. These are all wonderful manifestations of the
>>> advances we are making.  Ultimately, however, BDS is not economic
>>> warfare.
>>> If it were, we would be doomed to fail, because we can successfully
>>> boycott
>>> every Israeli item in every grocery store in the entire country, we would
>>> still not be making a dent in the US funding of Israel’s war crimes.
>>> Indeed, the Obama Administration has just announced that it would give
>>> Israel the largest aid package yet.  Our biggest BDS victory achieved so
>>> far by activists for Palestinian rights may well be the discourse change
>>> that BDS has produced in the West.
>>>
>>> Judged by that criterion, it is absolutely clear that we are winning.  We
>>> have not yet achieved our goals, namely justice for Palestine, and indeed
>>> 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism]

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A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

> it had nothing to do with Alison Weir

I find that hard to believe. Paul Larudee, the tour coordinator, writes, "We 
had no idea that Alison [Weir] would turn out to be an issue." What planet have 
they been on? The US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation and others 
disassociated themselves from Weir in July, and the organizers of the tour want 
us to believe that that they "had no idea" that inviting her would be an issue 
after nine months of controversy? That defies credulity.

--Kevin
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Jeff via Marxism]

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At 19:50 28-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
>On 4/28/16 7:31 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
>> But in the case of the event at Stanford, the speaking engagement became an
>> opportunity for Alison Weir and her openly right-wing organization to gain
>> legitimacy they don't deserve.
>
>What do you mean by openly rightwing? Like the Hoover Institution? Or 
>the Bill O'Reilly Show? I have looked at her website pretty thoroughly 
>and it is all about Palestinians

That's because:
1) Antisemitism of the old right can now by presented as "sympathy with 
Palestine"
2) "Realpolitik" opposition to Israel gains traction by being appealing to 
"sympathy with Palestine" 
3) The Palestine liberation movement has been very successful in promoting 
sympathy with Palestine, and in dispelling the view of anti-zionism = 
antisemitism, and inadvertently these successes have made (1) and (2) possible. 

Look at the older versions of their websites before they became so 
sophisticated. Read in between the lines. Look at ALL of their other political 
positions. 

It's late here; I'll supply more evidence tomorrow, if this is the issue.
- Jeff

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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/28/16 7:31 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:

But in the case of the event at Stanford, the speaking engagement became an
opportunity for Alison Weir and her openly right-wing organization to gain
legitimacy they don't deserve.


What do you mean by openly rightwing? Like the Hoover Institution? Or 
the Bill O'Reilly Show? I have looked at her website pretty thoroughly 
and it is all about Palestinians.

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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Hi all,

I know that this list-serv is public which is why I discourage anyone from
giving Jeff more room to lie. The organizers at Stanford have since
admitted that they had asked a Palestinian refugee not to challenge
Israel's right to exist, confirming the refugee's own account. There is a
separate topic about this including the video interview and documentation
confirming it had nothing to do with Alison Weir, but Jeff did not respond.

Now he is shitting all over an article by Nada Elia. Pathetic. Do not feed
the troll

On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Jeff via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> At 18:54 28-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> >
> >It is much more complicated. The people who organized the tour are part
> >of the PSL/Workers World wing of the movement that is very much pro-Arab
> >except those who opposed Assad. Paul Larudee, for example, writes very
> >laudable articles on Palestinians but is atrocious on Syria.
>
> But of course the ones you named are all part of the left and aren't who I
> was referring to. If the Free Palestine Movement (including Paul Larudee)
> had done exactly what they set out to, then I would have no problem with
> them and would happily have invited their speaker to my locality. And as
> far as I know, this tour is mainly functioning in that way and should be
> supported.
>
> But in the case of the event at Stanford, the speaking engagement became an
> opportunity for Alison Weir and her openly right-wing organization to gain
> legitimacy they don't deserve. And an opportunity for Amith to imagine a
> political difference on which he bases his outright slanders.
>
> >Furthermore, a lot of right wingers have become pro-Palestinian on a
> >realpolitik basis, like Mearsheimer and Walt who see the Israel lobby as
> >a threat to the "national interest"
>
> EXACTLY. And that is what I mean by "right-wing." Some of them are actually
> far-right, but that isn't the essential point. It is that they are NOT
> fighting for Palestinian liberation, they are fighting against Israel. And
> indeed if the right wing (the ruling class) were to decide to reject Israel
> (for instance, stop US aid and support in the UNSC) that would be a GREAT
> outcome. But the movement for Palestine opposes Israel for very different
> reasons and in ways consistent with the interests of the left (including
> fighting all racism) and would be crippled if it were to merge politically
> with the anti-Israel right. That point is widely recognized, except by
> Amith.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
>
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-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Jeff via Marxism]

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At 18:54 28-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
>It is much more complicated. The people who organized the tour are part 
>of the PSL/Workers World wing of the movement that is very much pro-Arab 
>except those who opposed Assad. Paul Larudee, for example, writes very 
>laudable articles on Palestinians but is atrocious on Syria. 

But of course the ones you named are all part of the left and aren't who I
was referring to. If the Free Palestine Movement (including Paul Larudee)
had done exactly what they set out to, then I would have no problem with
them and would happily have invited their speaker to my locality. And as
far as I know, this tour is mainly functioning in that way and should be
supported.

But in the case of the event at Stanford, the speaking engagement became an
opportunity for Alison Weir and her openly right-wing organization to gain
legitimacy they don't deserve. And an opportunity for Amith to imagine a
political difference on which he bases his outright slanders. 

>Furthermore, a lot of right wingers have become pro-Palestinian on a 
>realpolitik basis, like Mearsheimer and Walt who see the Israel lobby as 
>a threat to the "national interest"

EXACTLY. And that is what I mean by "right-wing." Some of them are actually
far-right, but that isn't the essential point. It is that they are NOT
fighting for Palestinian liberation, they are fighting against Israel. And
indeed if the right wing (the ruling class) were to decide to reject Israel
(for instance, stop US aid and support in the UNSC) that would be a GREAT
outcome. But the movement for Palestine opposes Israel for very different
reasons and in ways consistent with the interests of the left (including
fighting all racism) and would be crippled if it were to merge politically
with the anti-Israel right. That point is widely recognized, except by Amith.

- Jeff




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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Jeff via Marxism]

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At 18:21 28-04-16 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>... Jeff. He ...
>also defended shutting down the refugee event at Stanford.

What BULLSHIT!! If you're going to talk about the views of someone on this
list then you MUST be able to present a quotation of that person -- which
obviously you cannot to justify such a charge. OF COURSE I never "defended
shutting down the refugee event at Stanford."

I have been researching this, and in fact the event was only "shut down" by
the speaker herself who took offense at the request made by two individuals
who weren't even representing Stanford SJP. Anyone with principles would
have just gone ahead and spoke her mind, regardless. Instead it seems this
person acted (or was used) in order to promote divisiveness rather than
what she was brought there to present. And then Amith gets to frame this
unfortunate incident in terms of a disagreement over the legitimacy of
Israel?? More bullshit! I haven't ever heard a single Palestinian defend
any "legitimacy" of Israel, nor does the solidarity movement speak in such
terms. CERTAINLY not the Stanford SJP! What I question the legitimacy of is
right-wing organizations suddenly presenting themselves as friends of the
Palestinians, when if you look at their origins you'll find they hate Arabs
just as much as they hate Jews. And I find it troubling, to say the least,
that Amith is on a personal email basis with a leader of such a group.

- Jeff


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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I discourage anyone from engaging Jeff. He is the dishonest poster who
insisted on defending the made up statistics about Counter Punch and he
also defended shutting down the refugee event at Stanford. He embodies the
racism that Nada Elia describes and I'm still not sure why such a poisonous
voice is acceptable on this forum.

On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Jeff via Marxism 
wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> At 12:36 28-04-16 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
> >
> >Nada Elia making
> precisely the point about Jewish privilege and chauvinism
> >that the
> assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou and
> >I over
> the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>
> This article is making a big deal about a (largely) imaginary problem,
> which conveniently fits into Amith's agenda of creating false tension
> within the Palestinian solidarity movement (while at the same time,
> normalizing the participation of anti-Israel right-wingers!).
>
> As an example, the above statement that the Jews Without Borders website
> (which I have browsed) is "trying to promote" "Jewish privilege and
> chauvinism" IS A FILTHY LIE AND A SLANDER!! I really do not know how it is
> possibly acceptable for Amith to make such unfounded statements about
> leftists in struggle and for that to be tolerated on this list. He made
> such accusations against JVP and the Stanford chapter of SJP which he
> slandered as being "not anti-Zionist." In both cases I checked out his
> accusations (after all, I need to know who I'm collaborating with) and I am
> very confident in saying that his charges have no validity at all.
>
> In response to the article by Nada Elia, I think it might refer to a
> potential problem, which has possibly been observed in practice but
> probably reflects an unfounded fear and uneasiness with the number of Jews
> involved in Palestine solidarity. The reason you find many Jews involved in
> supporting Palestine is because there are many Jews among the left. Period.
> I very seldom hear those leftists going out of their way to identify
> themselves as Jews except (and this is the point of JVP) to smash the idea
> that all Jews support Israel/Zionism or need "protection" through the
> existence of such a state (even if it didn't displace the Palestinian
> nation, among other evils). More often it is the media that points out that
> someone speaking for Palestine is him/herself Jewish, and if they find that
> novel then they are free to report it to the chagrin of those who think in
> terms of some fundamental conflict between Arabs and Jews.
>
> And anyone on the left will recognize that presently Jews are not an
> oppressed ethnicity (in most all places) and do not interject such nonsense
> into their narratives. Oppression of Jews is an historical phenomenon, and
> when leftists make references to it they are referring to history, usually
> periods before they were even born (thus you might hear a poignant
> reference to the plight of ones grandparents who escaped, or didn't escape,
> the holocaust). The idea that Jews (among the left) are expressing their
> own (supposed) oppression or abusing their own "privilege" is wholly in the
> mind of this author. He wrote a complete essay about a mainly imagined
> problem.
>
> Unfortunately, after having become familiar with Amith's modus operandi, it
> doesn't surprise me at all that among all that's out there he would zero in
> on a divisive piece decrying a non-problem.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
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-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Jeff via Marxism]

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At 12:36 28-04-16 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>Nada Elia making
precisely the point about Jewish privilege and chauvinism
>that the
assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou and
>I over
the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.

This article is making a big deal about a (largely) imaginary problem,
which conveniently fits into Amith's agenda of creating false tension
within the Palestinian solidarity movement (while at the same time,
normalizing the participation of anti-Israel right-wingers!).

As an example, the above statement that the Jews Without Borders website
(which I have browsed) is "trying to promote" "Jewish privilege and
chauvinism" IS A FILTHY LIE AND A SLANDER!! I really do not know how it is
possibly acceptable for Amith to make such unfounded statements about
leftists in struggle and for that to be tolerated on this list. He made
such accusations against JVP and the Stanford chapter of SJP which he
slandered as being "not anti-Zionist." In both cases I checked out his
accusations (after all, I need to know who I'm collaborating with) and I am
very confident in saying that his charges have no validity at all.

In response to the article by Nada Elia, I think it might refer to a
potential problem, which has possibly been observed in practice but
probably reflects an unfounded fear and uneasiness with the number of Jews
involved in Palestine solidarity. The reason you find many Jews involved in
supporting Palestine is because there are many Jews among the left. Period.
I very seldom hear those leftists going out of their way to identify
themselves as Jews except (and this is the point of JVP) to smash the idea
that all Jews support Israel/Zionism or need "protection" through the
existence of such a state (even if it didn't displace the Palestinian
nation, among other evils). More often it is the media that points out that
someone speaking for Palestine is him/herself Jewish, and if they find that
novel then they are free to report it to the chagrin of those who think in
terms of some fundamental conflict between Arabs and Jews.

And anyone on the left will recognize that presently Jews are not an
oppressed ethnicity (in most all places) and do not interject such nonsense
into their narratives. Oppression of Jews is an historical phenomenon, and
when leftists make references to it they are referring to history, usually
periods before they were even born (thus you might hear a poignant
reference to the plight of ones grandparents who escaped, or didn't escape,
the holocaust). The idea that Jews (among the left) are expressing their
own (supposed) oppression or abusing their own "privilege" is wholly in the
mind of this author. He wrote a complete essay about a mainly imagined
problem.

Unfortunately, after having become familiar with Amith's modus operandi, it
doesn't surprise me at all that among all that's out there he would zero in
on a divisive piece decrying a non-problem.

- Jeff



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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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"Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel are
to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "

What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".

I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to black
people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to white
people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
them.

In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in the
long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.

- Amith

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:

> "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging
> of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
> exceptions. "
>
> Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
> his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
> Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
> It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
> US Black Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging"
> the criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
> non-Palestinian.
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> *
>>
>>
>> Nada Elia making precisely the point about Jewish privilege and chauvinism
>> that the assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou
>> and
>> I over the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>>
>> One of several very good articles by this scholar.
>>
>>
>> http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/it-is-time-to-stop-celebrating-jewish-dissent-in-the-palestine-solidarity-movement/
>>
>> The list of BDS successes seems to grow longer every day.  More
>> professional associations are endorsing the academic boycott of Israel,
>> cultural workers continue to denounce Israeli abuses, and labor unions,
>> churches, even cities are divesting from companies that benefit from
>> Israel’s illegal practices. These are all wonderful manifestations of the
>> advances we are making.  Ultimately, however, BDS is not economic warfare.
>> If it were, we would be doomed to fail, because we can successfully
>> boycott
>> every Israeli item in every grocery store in the entire country, we would
>> still not be making a dent in the US funding of Israel’s war crimes.
>> Indeed, the Obama Administration has just announced that it would give
>> Israel the largest aid package yet.  Our biggest BDS victory achieved so
>> far by activists for Palestinian rights may well be the discourse change
>> that BDS has produced in the West.
>>
>> Judged by that criterion, it is absolutely clear that we are winning.  We
>> have not yet achieved our goals, namely justice for Palestine, and indeed
>> the situation on the ground in Palestine seems to have worsened as home
>> demolitions and extra-judicial executions are daily occurrences, even as
>> the siege on Gaza continues to choke that part of the country, reminding
>> us
>> of the urgency of our activism here. But the change on the ground cannot
>> happen without a change in the global narrative that misrepresented
>> Palestine.  And that change, the shattering of the once iron-clad Zionist
>> narrative, is happening, as we regularly hear and read denunciations of
>> Israel’s abuses in various forums. This was most obvious when US
>> presidential 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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*

"Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging of
Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
exceptions. "

Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his
criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile
(who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.  It's the
same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the US Black
Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging" the
criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
non-Palestinian.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> Nada Elia making precisely the point about Jewish privilege and chauvinism
> that the assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou and
> I over the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>
> One of several very good articles by this scholar.
>
>
> http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/it-is-time-to-stop-celebrating-jewish-dissent-in-the-palestine-solidarity-movement/
>
> The list of BDS successes seems to grow longer every day.  More
> professional associations are endorsing the academic boycott of Israel,
> cultural workers continue to denounce Israeli abuses, and labor unions,
> churches, even cities are divesting from companies that benefit from
> Israel’s illegal practices. These are all wonderful manifestations of the
> advances we are making.  Ultimately, however, BDS is not economic warfare.
> If it were, we would be doomed to fail, because we can successfully boycott
> every Israeli item in every grocery store in the entire country, we would
> still not be making a dent in the US funding of Israel’s war crimes.
> Indeed, the Obama Administration has just announced that it would give
> Israel the largest aid package yet.  Our biggest BDS victory achieved so
> far by activists for Palestinian rights may well be the discourse change
> that BDS has produced in the West.
>
> Judged by that criterion, it is absolutely clear that we are winning.  We
> have not yet achieved our goals, namely justice for Palestine, and indeed
> the situation on the ground in Palestine seems to have worsened as home
> demolitions and extra-judicial executions are daily occurrences, even as
> the siege on Gaza continues to choke that part of the country, reminding us
> of the urgency of our activism here. But the change on the ground cannot
> happen without a change in the global narrative that misrepresented
> Palestine.  And that change, the shattering of the once iron-clad Zionist
> narrative, is happening, as we regularly hear and read denunciations of
> Israel’s abuses in various forums. This was most obvious when US
> presidential candidate Bernie Sanders spoke at a nationally televised
> electoral debate about Palestinian rights, and Israel’s “disproportionate
> response.”  Only days later, Pulitzer Prize laureate Michael Chabon gave a
> powerful interview in which he describes the horrors he witnessed while on
> a tour of Hebron.
>
> Chabon’s interview circulated amongst Palestinian-rights activists like
> brush fire on a scorching day, most often prefaced with an explanation that
> he is a “Jewish-American writer.”  This information, certainly offered with
> the best intentions, is nevertheless treacherous, in that it can uphold an
> oppressive dynamic.
>
> Jewish voices are welcome, of course, in the global denunciation of Zionism
> as a racist ideology.  Identifying oneself as Jewish when one speaks out
> against Israel’s policies also helps dismantle the accusation that seeking
> justice for Palestinians is anti-Semitic.  Yet there is an inevitable risk
> associated with the ongoing privileging of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
> exceptions.  It is these “exceptions,” then, that Palestinian rights
> activists place on a pedestal.
>
> The privileging of Jewish voices is more serious than whites denouncing
> anti-Black racism.  Because when whites denounce racism, there is no
> suggestion that they too are victimized by