Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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“But where will you get arms for the whole proletariat?” object once more
the sceptics who mistake their own inner futility for an objective
impossibility. They forgot that the same question has been posed before
every revolution in history. And despite everything, victorious revolutions
mark important stages in the development of humanity.

The proletariat produces arms, transports them, erects the buildings in
which they are kept, defends these buildings against itself, serves in the
army and creates all its equipment. It is neither locks nor walls which
separate the proletariat from arms, but the habit of submission, the
hypnosis of class domination and nationalist poison.

It is sufficient to destroy these psychological walls – and no wall of
stone will stand in the way. It is enough that the proletariat should want
arms – and it will find them. The task of the revolutionary party is to
awaken this desire and to facilitate its realization.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/whitherfrance/ch00.htm



> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:42 PM, John Reimann via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > In the first place, we have to define what we mean by "gun control". Are
> we
> > talking about prohibiting nearly all gun ownership? Are we simply talking
> > about limiting ownership of certain kinds of guns? How about limiting
> open
> > carry or concealed carry?
> >
> > The left wing (and also right wing) opposition to gun controls of any
> sort
> > based on having to be able to stand up to state violence is ridiculous.
> > It's like the Native Americans trying to stand up to Gatling guns with
> bows
> > and arrows.
> >
> > But there is the violence of the right. For instance, there was the case
> of
> > Robert F Williams ("Negroes with Guns" author and practitioner in N.
> > Carolina) and the Deacons for Defense of Justice in Louisiana in the
> 60s. I
> > think we would absolutely defend their right to carry arms.
> >
> > But I am inclined to oppose open carry as well as concealed weapon carry
> > for nearly anybody. I'm imagining a strike situation in which scabs are
> > legally armed and an attempt is made to stop them. Yes, possibly strikers
> > would be armed also, but in almost all such cases the strikers are
> > generally hesitant to initiate the violence whereas the scabs are not.
> And
> > I most definitely oppose the proposed legislation which would allow
> > residents of a concealed carry legal state to come into one where it is
> > illegal carrying a concealed weapon. We know who would be crossing state
> > lines for that.
> >
> > John
>
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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Agreed entirely.

The traditional position hearkens back to 1848, where the armed masses
could come close to matching the firepower of the state, particularly given
defections from that apparatus of repression.  The Paris Commune
demonstrated that this needed to be modified.  Communards could follow the
state into having artillery and some of those primitive machine guns, but
it could not, on any level, match what the government could bring to bear
against them.  Russia was made possible only because of the World War,
and--even so--as soon as the bourgeois state(s) could move against the
Soviet Union, it did, having an ultimately lethal impact on the course of
the revolution.

I think that the idea of an armed populace is a helpful deterrent against
the State.  I'm sure that it gives the cops pause every time they're
attempted to mess with somebody in this neighborhood.

But the key is the political task of fostering a collective understanding
and collective action.  If we get to that point, politically, what we can
and must do to protect the movement and its future will become evident.

YFTR
Mark



On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:42 PM, John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> In the first place, we have to define what we mean by "gun control". Are we
> talking about prohibiting nearly all gun ownership? Are we simply talking
> about limiting ownership of certain kinds of guns? How about limiting open
> carry or concealed carry?
>
> The left wing (and also right wing) opposition to gun controls of any sort
> based on having to be able to stand up to state violence is ridiculous.
> It's like the Native Americans trying to stand up to Gatling guns with bows
> and arrows.
>
> But there is the violence of the right. For instance, there was the case of
> Robert F Williams ("Negroes with Guns" author and practitioner in N.
> Carolina) and the Deacons for Defense of Justice in Louisiana in the 60s. I
> think we would absolutely defend their right to carry arms.
>
> But I am inclined to oppose open carry as well as concealed weapon carry
> for nearly anybody. I'm imagining a strike situation in which scabs are
> legally armed and an attempt is made to stop them. Yes, possibly strikers
> would be armed also, but in almost all such cases the strikers are
> generally hesitant to initiate the violence whereas the scabs are not. And
> I most definitely oppose the proposed legislation which would allow
> residents of a concealed carry legal state to come into one where it is
> illegal carrying a concealed weapon. We know who would be crossing state
> lines for that.
>
> John
>
> --
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Asata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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In the first place, we have to define what we mean by "gun control". Are we
talking about prohibiting nearly all gun ownership? Are we simply talking
about limiting ownership of certain kinds of guns? How about limiting open
carry or concealed carry?

The left wing (and also right wing) opposition to gun controls of any sort
based on having to be able to stand up to state violence is ridiculous.
It's like the Native Americans trying to stand up to Gatling guns with bows
and arrows.

But there is the violence of the right. For instance, there was the case of
Robert F Williams ("Negroes with Guns" author and practitioner in N.
Carolina) and the Deacons for Defense of Justice in Louisiana in the 60s. I
think we would absolutely defend their right to carry arms.

But I am inclined to oppose open carry as well as concealed weapon carry
for nearly anybody. I'm imagining a strike situation in which scabs are
legally armed and an attempt is made to stop them. Yes, possibly strikers
would be armed also, but in almost all such cases the strikers are
generally hesitant to initiate the violence whereas the scabs are not. And
I most definitely oppose the proposed legislation which would allow
residents of a concealed carry legal state to come into one where it is
illegal carrying a concealed weapon. We know who would be crossing state
lines for that.

John

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Asata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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> Gun control *politically* has very right wing and racist origins:
> The (Really, Really) Racist History Of Gun Control In America

Yes, this is true, but what does it say about whether there should or
shouldn't be controls on access to the type of weaponry used in Las
Vegas? It is important history, for more reasons than just gun control,
but our racist criminal "justice" system in general, and should inform
how any changes are approached, but should not shut down the discussion
on the need for controls like it so often does and is used to do on the
left.
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017, at 03:59 PM, Chris Slee wrote:
> Some left groups oppose gun control on the grounds that workers and
> oppressed groups need to be armed to resist the violence of the state
> and right-wing groups.
I know. And there are instances that can be pointed to in US history
that prove their use as a deterrent. The first that come to mind are
stories I read in Hammer and Hoe. But that was almost 100 years ago,
when a single shooter from the 32nd floor 400 yards away couldn't shoot
500 people.
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[DW via Marxism]

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The are positives and negatives to gun ownership. Today on facebook it is
literally THE topic of debate among many leftists.

--David Walters

Gun control *politically* has very right wing and racist origins:

The (Really, Really) Racist History Of Gun Control In America

The origin of gun control — and its impact on black Americans — is being
forgotten
by Jane Coaston

There was a time when the NRA fought for

a two-day waiting period on handgun sales and limits on concealed weapons
permits. And a time when then–California Governor Ronald Reagan signed
legislation forbidding the carrying of loaded firearms in public. Before
gun control became a progressive cause, it was a right-wing staple, and it
was aimed squarely at the rights of African-Americans nationwide.

The institution of slavery was written into the Constitution, but the
rights of African-Americans to defend themselves was most certainly not,
and concerns regarding slave revolts increased as the slave population
rose. States passed laws forbidding African-Americans from carrying
weapons. In South Carolina, slaves — who were "of barbarous, wild savage
natures" according to Colony Law

— could not have unsupervised access to weapons and could be killed freely,
provided the murder wasn’t “wanton.” In Florida, white “citizens patrols”
were permitted to search the homes of free African-Americans

for guns “and other offensive or improper weapons, and may lawfully seize
and take away such arms, weapons, and ammunition.” The message was clear:
guns — like the ballot box, marriage, and the right to free assembly — were
for white Americans only.

Many resisted, and did so with the very weapons they were forbidden to own.
Harriet Tubman rescued more than 300 people from slavery with a gun under
her arm .
Frederick Douglass wrote in 1854 that a good revolver was critical to
staying free: "Every slave hunter

who meets a bloody death in his infernal business is an argument in favor
of the manhood of our race."


FULL:
http://www.mtv.com/news/2900230/the-really-really-racist-history-of-gun-control-in-america/?fb_ref=fbshare_web
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Some left groups oppose gun control on the grounds that workers and oppressed 
groups need to be armed to resist the violence of the state and right-wing 
groups.

I believe there have been some cases in US history where the presence of armed 
black people deterred attacks by white racists.  But in general privately owned 
guns are not used for any progressive purpose.  Often they are used in family 
violence.  Where they have been used politically it is much more often by the 
right than the left.

In theory the idea that workers should be armed to resist state repression 
sounds correct.  But this seems a long way from the daily reality of gun use.

Chris Slee


From: Marxism <marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu> on behalf of Tristan 
Sloughter via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 3 October 2017 12:10:22 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

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> disarm the populace but not the government repressive forces.

Why not both?
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Another interesting response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas: I have
heard two people say they didn't believe that the accused gunman, Stephen
Paddock, was the one who did it; they thought it was a set up. One person
was a young white nurse. She didn't seem to be a right winger. Just the
opposite, in fact. Had a kind of punk hair style and seemed
anti-establishment. (Also seemed to be very caring of her patients.) I just
overheard her in a situation where I couldn't say anything so I wasn't able
to delve any deeper.

The other was a 30 something year-old black guy. I had just opened a
conversation in the street with him as I passed him by while walking my
dog. "I think he was set up," this guy said. "I don't believe it was really
him."

"Why?" I said. "What makes people think that a wealthy, middle aged white
guy couldn't do this? If it had been somebody with a Muslim last name, or
somebody who wasn't white, would we be thinking that?" He immediately
agreed with me and then we had an excellent conversation about the social
situation that allows for something like this, Trump, all the deaths
elsewhere (such as in Syria). In other words, this was a thoughtful guy,
not some nut case. But it just shows the level of complete distrust in all
establishment sources, but a distrust that comes out in a very distorted
way.

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Asata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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> not joining the reactionary funded liberal "gun control groups"

Also funny that you say that after a rant that sounds like many a
liberal rant about people deserving no sympathy for being shot or losing
health insurance, while removing the human face of such tragedies
https://twitter.com/byHeatherLong/status/914970181994029056 
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/2/17 9:06 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:

The Mandalay Hotel shooting reminds me of the U. S. helicopters
shooting down below on the Vietnamese villagers.  Those villagers had
less resources than the mainly Trump supporters in Vegas who paid
for their tickets to hear Country Western singers reflecting mainly
Jesus Land - and when they want" to get naughty" in Las Vegas.



Your brain is scrambled. You need to think about what you are writing 
before inflicting it on the rest of us. Doesn't it occur to before 
writing this kind of stupid rant that it makes no sense at all? 
Reflecting mainly Jesus Land? Getting naughty? The next time you write 
bullshit like this, I am removing you from the list.


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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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> disarm the populace but not the government repressive forces.  

Why not both?
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Marxists advocate that the U. S. and other capitalist states:

disarm their militaries and police.


As for stated concerns about " how human life has been cheapened

in U. S. society".  Really???  Are we talking about the nation that

committed genocide against the Native People and continue with

harmful policies?  Or the long history of slavery and Jim Crow and

the racist policies and practices that continue?  The government

and private vigilantes who murdered union strikers wanting to have

basic living needs, or killing radicals, the prison and injustice system,

the awful housing conditions, the lack of quality education and health

care and food.  The large number of elderly having to choose between

shelter, medicine and food - but can not have all three of.


The U. S. government with the blood of countless numbers of people

in many nations, for to benefit a capitalist quest for profits and power.


The same U. S. government and society that harms millions of poor

people who reside in the horrors and challenges in that U. S. Society

they endure?   From the prisons, to the convalescent homes, from

environmental harmed localities to the lack of hope and destroying

the lives of poor youth in both the cities and rural communities. The

violence of racism, sexism, homophobia have been long a part of the

U. S. - and accepted by many.   I know of no working class leftist who

does not understand and is affected by the ongoing violence of this

society and nation.


The Mandalay Hotel shooting reminds me of the U. S. helicopters

shooting down below on the Vietnamese villagers.  Those villagers had

less resources than the mainly Trump supporters in Vegas who paid

for their tickets to hear Country Western singers reflecting mainly

Jesus Land - and when they want" to get naughty" in Las Vegas.


What happens in Vegas - does not always just stay there.  But the

Vegas lifestyle reflects also the "U. S. Society of respect for life"

of the haves and have nots.  Consumerism, greed and I detect

some brainwashing religion and not class politics, raised as

"our nation and society's values".


What should we expect from capitalism - with "losers and winners"

Alienation - what a shock?  Violence - who would have thought it

would happen?  Fucking priviliged liberals.   Promote the disarming

of police and ending their militarization, not joining the reactionary

funded liberal "gun control groups", who want to disarm the populace

but not the government repressive forces.   Are wars, poverty, injustice

"respecting life"?






Well, the legality of assault rifles certainly didn't help. And if they
legalize silencers, just imagine how many more would have been killed,
since it would have taken that much longer to figure out where the shots
were coming from.

But in the end, it's not a matter of gun control legislation. It's a matter
of how human life has been cheapened in US society, how violence is
legitimatized, and most important the extreme level of unfocused anger and
frustration.

By the way, imagine what Trump would have been saying if it had been a
black person accused of this crime. Or a Latino immigrant. Then we would
not be hearing all the hypocrisy about "coming together"; we'd be hearing
blanket denunciation of the entire black community or of all Latino
immigrants. And if it had been a person with a Muslim last name? Oh my god!

John.

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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Well, the legality of assault rifles certainly didn't help. And if they
legalize silencers, just imagine how many more would have been killed,
since it would have taken that much longer to figure out where the shots
were coming from.

But in the end, it's not a matter of gun control legislation. It's a matter
of how human life has been cheapened in US society, how violence is
legitimatized, and most important the extreme level of unfocused anger and
frustration.

By the way, imagine what Trump would have been saying if it had been a
black person accused of this crime. Or a Latino immigrant. Then we would
not be hearing all the hypocrisy about "coming together"; we'd be hearing
blanket denunciation of the entire black community or of all Latino
immigrants. And if it had been a person with a Muslim last name? Oh my god!

John.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Carl G. Estabrook 
wrote:

> What sort of gun legislation would have prevented the Las Vegas shooting?
> Or e.g. the Sandy Hook massacre?
>
> I can’t think of any, short of prohibiting the private ownership of guns.
>
> Isn’t that what Australia did, after the shootings in Tasmania?
>
>
> > On Oct 2, 2017, at 5:13 PM, John Reimann via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> > *
> >
> > "On Monday, Aug. 25, a gunman opened fire on clients in a library in
> > Clovis, New Mexico, killing two and wounding four others. That marked
> the 244th
> > mass shooting of 2017
> >  shootings-days-2017-656681>,
> > and that was before the horror in Las Vegas in which, as of this writing,
> > 58 people have been confirmed dead and over 500 wounded. This and many
> > other such acts have caused uncountable heart ache, just as similar
> actions
> > have all around the world. Whether it be the grieving families of those
> > lost in Las Vegas, or of the Rohingya in Myanmar or the survivors of the
> > 500,000 killed in Syria, suffering is suffering, and the country in which
> > it occurs makes no difference. But in the case of the Las Vegas shooter,
> > there are particular political ramifications, and if the “senseless”
> deaths
> > are to mean anything, we must consider these politics.
> >
> > Just days before the Las Vegas terrorist act, Republicans introduced a
> bill
> > in Congress legalizing gun silencers. The bill would also mean that a
> > resident in a state where concealed carry is legal for (nearly) anybody
> > could carry a concealed weapon into another state where it is illegal.
> This
> > bill is in some ways the equivalent of the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott
> > decision of 1857. In that case, the Supreme Court determined that a slave
> > owner could bring his or her slaves into a state where slavery was
> outlawed
> > and those slaves would remain in that status.
> >
> >
> > *Hypocrisy*So where were all the hypocritical cries of “states’ rights”
> > when that bill was introduced?
> >
> > Speaking of hypocrisy: On Monday, Trump went onto TV to “address the
> > nation” on the massacre in Las Vegas. He used the massacre to reinforce
> his
> > political agenda, first of all appealing to his religious base with is
> talk
> > about “ask(ing) got to help see you through this very dark period.” This
> is
> > a man who has never shown the slightest religious inclination until now,
> > but that is completely ignored by all the hypocritical religious fanatics
> > who are happy to rely on him to enforce their political agenda. Trump
> also
> > used this massacre to prop up support for the police, but most
> hypocritical
> > of all was such comments as “our (national) unity cannot be shattered by
> > evil. Our bonds cannot be broken by violence…. it is our love that
> defines
> > us today — and always will, forever.”
> >
> > Read more:
> > https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-
> some-thoughts-on-random-shootings-in-the-us/
> >
> > --
> > "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> > Asata Shakur
> > Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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>


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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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What sort of gun legislation would have prevented the Las Vegas shooting? Or 
e.g. the Sandy Hook massacre?

I can’t think of any, short of prohibiting the private ownership of guns.

Isn’t that what Australia did, after the shootings in Tasmania?


> On Oct 2, 2017, at 5:13 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> "On Monday, Aug. 25, a gunman opened fire on clients in a library in
> Clovis, New Mexico, killing two and wounding four others. That marked the 
> 244th
> mass shooting of 2017
> ,
> and that was before the horror in Las Vegas in which, as of this writing,
> 58 people have been confirmed dead and over 500 wounded. This and many
> other such acts have caused uncountable heart ache, just as similar actions
> have all around the world. Whether it be the grieving families of those
> lost in Las Vegas, or of the Rohingya in Myanmar or the survivors of the
> 500,000 killed in Syria, suffering is suffering, and the country in which
> it occurs makes no difference. But in the case of the Las Vegas shooter,
> there are particular political ramifications, and if the “senseless” deaths
> are to mean anything, we must consider these politics.
> 
> Just days before the Las Vegas terrorist act, Republicans introduced a bill
> in Congress legalizing gun silencers. The bill would also mean that a
> resident in a state where concealed carry is legal for (nearly) anybody
> could carry a concealed weapon into another state where it is illegal. This
> bill is in some ways the equivalent of the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott
> decision of 1857. In that case, the Supreme Court determined that a slave
> owner could bring his or her slaves into a state where slavery was outlawed
> and those slaves would remain in that status.
> 
> 
> *Hypocrisy*So where were all the hypocritical cries of “states’ rights”
> when that bill was introduced?
> 
> Speaking of hypocrisy: On Monday, Trump went onto TV to “address the
> nation” on the massacre in Las Vegas. He used the massacre to reinforce his
> political agenda, first of all appealing to his religious base with is talk
> about “ask(ing) got to help see you through this very dark period.” This is
> a man who has never shown the slightest religious inclination until now,
> but that is completely ignored by all the hypocritical religious fanatics
> who are happy to rely on him to enforce their political agenda. Trump also
> used this massacre to prop up support for the police, but most hypocritical
> of all was such comments as “our (national) unity cannot be shattered by
> evil. Our bonds cannot be broken by violence…. it is our love that defines
> us today — and always will, forever.”
> 
> Read more:
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-some-thoughts-on-random-shootings-in-the-us/
> 
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Asata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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