Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the
What are the spontaneous demands of that section of the working class in motion that President Obama and the entire institutional political sphere responding to? ^ CB: Anti-war, anti-racist, the rational kernel of American humanism. ^^ Reply Apparently the poorest section of the working class was not driven by or responding to being poor but anti-racism. Race theory and race ideology blinds one to class and economic impulses. Here is the crux of the dispute. I strongly believe the American people, that section of the working class in motion, responded to economic demands and needs which they voiced clearly, rather than an abstract rational kernel of American humanism. People were losing their jobs, were tired of the wars, tied of the Bush W. economic policy and wanted changed. Denial of the economic demands of the American people is in my estimate short sighted. WL. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the
Reply WL: What is the Marxist perspective of our current economic, social and political environment of which Barack Obama is a part? ^ CB: It's do what you can to help O. Comment Last week on several lists an article indicating an up tick in sales of Marx capital was run. Surely anyone interest in purchasing Capital and actually reading it indicates a political stirring and yearning within the working class itself. This political yearning is part of the political and ideological landscape, of which Barack Obama is a part of. The perspective of Marxists and communists should be to do what you can to help O. What is wrong with this political projection is everything, because it means abandoning the literary aspect of our task as communists. Social democracy has no shame. WL. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
Waistline2 The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class is so and devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is wrong. ^^ CB: I was responding to you writing about me ( who) was penning away about Obama's increasing unemployment benefits. One good criticism of who deserves another (smile) As far as left-haters, on these lists the issue of motive in interpreting the events since O's election is pertinent. I regularly read posts that interpret the glass as half empty when it could be interpreted as half-full. ^ I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) Obama or his administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree and the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration. ^^^ CB: I do. It's what's going on on these 'left lists these days. It's just another praise added to opening up stem cell research, pay equity for women, the budget reversing Reaganism, announcement of the withdrawal of the troops from Iraq, stimulus package. That's the context. The unemployment thing is not isolated. Also, O's admin did two things Bush didn't do. $25 more per week, and no tax on first $2,500. Plus, they did it right away. And it is very important to keep up popular support for Obama, counter the propaganda from Kramer and the Wall Street mouthpieces, Limbaugh. We're in an ongoing struggle, campaign. It didn't end with the election campaign. The little things are like little pieces of campaign literature handed out at the polls or door to door. So, I'd say you're wrong on what is do be done right now. ^^^ The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W. administration, CB: So, why would you criticize the praise of the $100 a month and the tax break , which was more than what Bush did. Plus, I don't think Bush did it at the beginning of his presidency. I have to check. No reason to criticize the praise of Obama for doing something good 'cause Bush did it. ^^^ the precedence of the past and the art of the possible. It is imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path the working class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of itself as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the lowest section of the workers as their interest intersect and find expression in the political sphere. ^ CB: In this case. one step ahead along that path is to rally the working class to support Obama. In case you didn't notice the bourgeoisie are rallying against his first pro-working class moves. The ultra-left is stumbling into joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh ^^ What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and condemnation of comrades - let haters, whose opinion might disagree with someone's else opinion. ^^ CB: See above. See discussion several weeks ago posts on Lenin's polemics against the ultra-left. We have the same task today. ^^ To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and production relations. To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall never approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies are doing me or mine a favor, . . with a concession, as such. . ^ CB: You have a different attitude toward the Obama event than I do. I think we should rally the working class in support of him. It's true it's because it's the best we have right now, but , there you go. It's sort of like supporting Coleman Young as Mayor. ^ ^ . The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of trillions of dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is designed to starve the workers of these needed funds. ^ CB: Well, yeah, that more later The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are comrades to frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a doctrine is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class intersection as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is missing in assessments of the Obama administration and the existing correlations of forces in the Senate. Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on is not a conception of Democrats or Republicans but workers and capitalist. WL. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
In a message dated 3/7/2009 12:38:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cdb1...@prodigy.net writes: Waistline2 The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class is so and devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is wrong. ^^ CB: I was responding to you writing about me ( who) was penning away about Obama's increasing unemployment benefits. One good criticism of who deserves another (smile) As far as left-haters, on these lists the issue of motive in interpreting the events since O's election is pertinent. I regularly read posts that interpret the glass as half empty when it could be interpreted as half-full. ^ I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) Obama or his administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree and the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration. ^^^ CB: I do. It's what's going on on these 'left lists these days. It's just another praise added to opening up stem cell research, pay equity for women, the budget reversing Reaganism, announcement of the withdrawal of the troops from Iraq, stimulus package. That's the context. The unemployment thing is not isolated. Also, O's admin did two things Bush didn't do. $25 more per week, and no tax on first $2,500. Plus, they did it right away. And it is very important to keep up popular support for Obama, counter the propaganda from Kramer and the Wall Street mouthpieces, Limbaugh. We're in an ongoing struggle, campaign. It didn't end with the election campaign. The little things are like little pieces of campaign literature handed out at the polls or door to door. So, I'd say you're wrong on what is do be done right now. ^^^ The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W. administration, CB: So, why would you criticize the praise of the $100 a month and the tax break , which was more than what Bush did. Plus, I don't think Bush did it at the beginning of his presidency. I have to check. No reason to criticize the praise of Obama for doing something good 'cause Bush did it. ^^^ the precedence of the past and the art of the possible. It is imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path the working class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of itself as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the lowest section of the workers as their interest intersect and find expression in the political sphere. ^ CB: In this case. one step ahead along that path is to rally the working class to support Obama. In case you didn't notice the bourgeoisie are rallying against his first pro-working class moves. The ultra-left is stumbling into joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh ^^ What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and condemnation of comrades - let haters, whose opinion might disagree with someone's else opinion. ^^ CB: See above. See discussion several weeks ago posts on Lenin's polemics against the ultra-left. We have the same task today. ^^ To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and production relations. To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall never approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies are doing me or mine a favor, . . with a concession, as such. . ^ CB: You have a different attitude toward the Obama event than I do. I think we should rally the working class in support of him. It's true it's because it's the best we have right now, but , there you go. It's sort of like supporting Coleman Young as Mayor. ^ ^ .. The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of trillions of dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is designed to starve the workers of these needed funds. ^ CB: Well, yeah, that more later The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are comrades to frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a doctrine is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class intersection as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is missing in assessments of the Obama administration and the existing correlations of forces in the Senate. Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
CB: You have a different attitude toward the Obama event than I do. I think we should rally the working class in support of him. It's true it's because it's the best we have right now, but , there you go. It's sort of like supporting Coleman Young as Mayor. Reply What is the Marxist perspective of our current economic, social and political environment of which Barack Obama is a part? What correlation of class forces and intersection allowed for Obama to be elected president? What is the practice of the working class movement forming the framework by which Obama the person as President to be weighed, measured and assessed? What are the spontaneous demands of that section of the working class in motion that President Obama and the entire institutional political sphere responding to? What phase of the process of social revolution currently exists? What is the role of communists in the social process? America is undergoing a profound political, economic and social collapse. Collapse does not mean no one is working or that the political system and social relations have been shattered and no longer operate. When a society undergoes collapse . . . . revolutionary collapse, this means the old ways of doing things and the old social relations of the previous period is undergoing transformation. Specifically the old platform or infrastructure relations that held society together is straining and collapsing as society attempts to leap to a new infrastructure relations. This was the case with the Civil rights movement, which in the first and last instance, had as its impetus the tractor or the mechanization of agriculture and pushing 11 million sharecroppers off of the land and first into Southern small towns and cities and then to the North where these folks would take their place in the industrial social order. The tractor was introduced by International Harvester in 1939. One can shift backwards through history and see - in retrospect, how every deepening quantitative boundary in the mechanization of agriculture had its corresponding and intensifying advance in the political struggle as the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights movement was a social movement for economic and social justice; for the expansion of political liberty. The old society constituted on the basis of Jim Crow segregation collapsed. First this old society was breached, then shattered and finally swept away by a cross section of American society (class intersection), but all of this was dependent upon and corresponded with changes in the means of production. The Marxist conception of collapse and revolutionary collapse is not the ideology of any damn thing can happen or one damn thing after another but transformation; the dialectic of the leap or the transition from one kind of society configuration to another. This Marxist understanding gives us the ideological conviction to wage the never ending struggle with the bourgeois power. America is undergoing the early stages of revolutionary collapse. Specifically, incremental qualitative changes in the productive forces begin polarizing and unraveling all classes and class fragments as society strains to adjust and reorient itself around a new technological regime. This reorientation appears as fight and attack by all classes and class fragments against the existing regime. Each class and class fragment is seeking to achieve reorganization and stability on a new basis, but this stability cannot be achieved because the property relations prevent the completion of the leap. Further, the private ownership of socially necessary property, prevents the fullest development of the new technological regime in servicing the socially necessary means of life for the masses. Consequently, a spontaneous series of chain reactions by various sectors of society, from various points of view, is destroying - unraveling, the society political infrastructure and social relations created during the industrial era. That is why the fascist and Republican have becomes so outspoken and adamant in their condemnation of any change. The real political fascist in government very well understand the social process. What emerges in the political sphere is the competing of different classes and class fragments with intersecting interest and this clash and struggle is called the class struggle that drives society forward. This class struggle revealed itself in a tiny way during the campaign phase of the Presidential election. It was a historically specific alignment of social forces that allowed Obama to best Senator Clinton as the Democratic Party nominee for President and then best Senator John McCain. Some view this alignment as white people doing the right thing - one damn thing after another, or waging the heroic struggle against racism. I do not. What
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
CB: In this case. one step ahead along that path is to rally the working class to support Obama. In case you didn't notice the bourgeoisie are rallying against his first pro-working class moves. The ultra-left is stumbling into joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh Comment Simply produce one piece of the ulta left that stumbles into supporting . . . joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh. If you can not produce any evidence then stop fighting straw men of your own creation to justify your endless attack against the left. Produce the evidence. WL. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the
...Ralph Dumain Charles lost his mind a long time ago. But he has gotten really bad in recent months. After you have partaken too much of what the CP is serving, you get the itis. A lot of words are wasted wrangling in sectarian environments. ^^^ CB: Ah Ralph has been caused to take up the issue of sectarianism. Guess where his mind got to that. (smile) Perhaps some people feel the need to prove they're not being fooled, by denouncing bourgeois politicians. Others, proving they are not sectarian, act as if self-deception and confusion is the way to act practically and make necessary compromises. But once one knows a bourgeois politician is a bourgeois politician, one can move on to delineate clearly and precisely the situation to be dealt with. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the
...Waistline2 at aol.com Waistline2 at aol.com Sat Mar 7 14:46:29 MST 2009 * Previous message: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ... * Next message: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ... * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] CB: You have a different attitude toward the Obama event than I do. I think we should rally the working class in support of him. It's true it's because it's the best we have right now, but , there you go. It's sort of like supporting Coleman Young as Mayor. Reply What is the Marxist perspective of our current economic, social and political environment of which Barack Obama is a part? ^ CB: It's do what you can to help O. ^ What correlation of class forces and intersection allowed for Obama to be elected president? ^^ CB: A significant anti-racist, White , Brown and Black, pro-working people ( working class and middle class) coalition. An anti-war, anti-rightwing, anti-Bush, anti-Reaganite coalition. What is the practice of the working class movement forming the framework by which Obama the person as President to be weighed, measured and assessed? ^^^ CB: Electoral practice, which must be converted to People's lobbyist practice. Not so much the person but the leader , the emblem can be weighed as heavy, measured as breaking through a quantitative barrier , and capable of breaking through more. Assessed as high reformist potential. ^6 ^^ What are the spontaneous demands of that section of the working class in motion that President Obama and the entire institutional political sphere responding to? ^ CB: Anti-war, anti-racist, the rational kernel of American humanism. ^^ What phase of the process of social revolution currently exists? ^ CB: Very early social rev, moderate reformism but potentially radical because of deep pentup contradictions for at least 30 years, with few reformist resolutions in at least 30 years. ^ What is the role of communists in the social process? ^ CB: In the concrete circumstance join the Obama crowd and don't stand out. Mingle and go with O-flow ^^ America is undergoing a profound political, economic and social collapse. Collapse does not mean no one is working or that the political system and social relations have been shattered and no longer operate. When a society undergoes collapse . . . . revolutionary collapse, this means the old ways of doing things and the old social relations of the previous period is undergoing transformation. Specifically the old platform or infrastructure relations that held society together is straining and collapsing as society attempts to leap to a new infrastructure relations. ^^ CB Uhhuh ^ This was the case with the Civil rights movement, which in the first and last instance, had as its impetus the tractor or the mechanization of agriculture and pushing 11 million sharecroppers off of the land and first into Southern small towns and cities and then to the North where these folks would take their place in the industrial social order. The tractor was introduced by International Harvester in 1939. One can shift backwards through history and see - in retrospect, how every deepening quantitative boundary in the mechanization of agriculture had its corresponding and intensifying advance in the political struggle as the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights movement was a social movement for economic and social justice; for the expansion of political liberty. The old society constituted on the basis of Jim Crow segregation collapsed. First this old society was breached, then shattered and finally swept away by a cross section of American society (class intersection), but all of this was dependent upon and corresponded with changes in the means of production. ^^ CB: And executed in the last especially by the Johnson Democratic Party. ^^ The Marxist conception of collapse and revolutionary collapse is not the ideology of any damn thing can happen or one damn thing after another but transformation; the dialectic of the leap or the transition from one kind of society configuration to another. This Marxist understanding gives us the ideological conviction to wage the never ending struggle with the bourgeois power. ^ CB: Well, at some point we aim to end it... in the final conflict ^^ America is undergoing the early stages of revolutionary collapse. CB: Revolutions are not collapses. Collapses hold potential for revolution to be made out of them, if the ruling class can't rule in the old way and the ruled won't be ruled any longer in the old way. We aren't there yet. But the masses are mulling over the situation in ways that are no reflected much in the
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class is so and devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is wrong. I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) Obama or his administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree and the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration. The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W. administration, the precedence of the past and the art of the possible. It is imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path the working class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of itself as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the lowest section of the workers as their interest intersect and find expression in the political sphere. What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and condemnation of comrades - let haters, whose opinion might disagree with someone's else opinion. To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and production relations. To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall never approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies are doing me or mine a favor, . . with a concession, as such. . . The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of trillions of dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is designed to starve the workers of these needed funds. The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are comrades to frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a doctrine is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class intersection as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is missing in assessments of the Obama administration and the existing correlations of forces in the Senate. Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on is not a conception of Democrats or Republicans but workers and capitalist. WL. In a message dated 3/6/2009 4:35:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cdb1...@prodigy.net writes: This penning away about how much Obama is doing for the working class for extending unemployment benefits is blind to all those workers who cannot receive such benefits. Further, we have many precedents in the past concerning extension of unemployment benefits, even under the Bush W. regime. In fact in the 1970's under the old Trade Readjustment Act of 1974 (or was it 1976) laid off and displaced workers were bagging 10 - 20K and today, a few hundred bucks a week is pathetic and unworthy of praise. ^ CB: It's not the only Obama action in favor of the working class. Because some can't receive benefits doesn't mean it's not worth noting those who do benefit. Your expression here is devisive and sectarian. The idea is to promote solidarity among people, not encourage one group begrudge benefits to another segment. And the amounts are small, but $100 more a month can pay a monthly minimum health insurance or car insurance bill for six to ten months. six to 9 months of extended benefits amounts to thousans of dollars. A real champion of the poorest sectors of the working class wouldn't sneeze at these amounts of money. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...
Charles lost his mind a long time ago. But he has gotten really bad in recent months. After you have partaken too much of what the CP is serving, you get the itis. A lot of words are wasted wrangling in sectarian environments. Perhaps some people feel the need to prove they're not being fooled, by denouncing bourgeois politicians. Others, proving they are not sectarian, act as if self-deception and confusion is the way to act practically and make necessary compromises. But once one knows a bourgeois politician is a bourgeois politician, one can move on to delineate clearly and precisely the situation to be dealt with. At 05:31 PM 3/6/2009, waistli...@aol.com wrote: The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class is so and devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is wrong. I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) Obama or his administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree and the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration. The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W. administration, the precedence of the past and the art of the possible. It is imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path the working class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of itself as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the lowest section of the workers as their interest intersect and find expression in the political sphere. What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and condemnation of comrades - let haters, whose opinion might disagree with someone's else opinion. To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and production relations. To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall never approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies are doing me or mine a favor, . . with a concession, as such. . . The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of trillions of dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is designed to starve the workers of these needed funds. The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are comrades to frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a doctrine is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class intersection as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is missing in assessments of the Obama administration and the existing correlations of forces in the Senate. Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on is not a conception of Democrats or Republicans but workers and capitalist. WL. In a message dated 3/6/2009 4:35:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cdb1...@prodigy.net writes: This penning away about how much Obama is doing for the working class for extending unemployment benefits is blind to all those workers who cannot receive such benefits. Further, we have many precedents in the past concerning extension of unemployment benefits, even under the Bush W. regime. In fact in the 1970's under the old Trade Readjustment Act of 1974 (or was it 1976) laid off and displaced workers were bagging 10 - 20K and today, a few hundred bucks a week is pathetic and unworthy of praise. ^ CB: It's not the only Obama action in favor of the working class. Because some can't receive benefits doesn't mean it's not worth noting those who do benefit. Your expression here is devisive and sectarian. The idea is to promote solidarity among people, not encourage one group begrudge benefits to another segment. And the amounts are small, but $100 more a month can pay a monthly minimum health insurance or car insurance bill for six to ten months. six to 9 months of extended benefits amounts to thousans of dollars. A real champion of the poorest sectors of the working class wouldn't sneeze at these amounts of money. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
