subject:"\[MBZ\] Fix or Sell\?"

Well, all they are required to do is see your license to purchase 
refrigerant.  They do not need a business license.  What you do with it is 
none of their business either.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12


 It is also illegal to release here and legal purchase is very difficult.
 There are two parts houses in town that still sell R12  the last time I
 purchased R12, I had to show my refrigeration license  my business
 license. Even then, they asked what I was going to do with the R12  I
 stated that my Porsche was a little low (the truth).

 Now I buy from eBay resellers who are peddling the last of the old stock
  will be for a while.

 Tom
 www.kegkits.com

 Original Message
 From: Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 09/06/07 11:32 PM
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Well yes there are still cars in Oz with R12 in the system but it is now

 unobtanium and releasing it into the atmosphere is against the law.

 Tom Hargrave wrote:
 Manufacturing new R12 has been banned in this country but there is
 still
 old stock around, plus re-cyclers are re-processing stock. It is legal
 to sell what is still in the system.

 Tom




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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

and Im sure I can find out just as much proof to the contrary.  In other 
words, who knows.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12


 Kaleb,

 Actually, there is proof that R12 damages the ozone layer  the
 scientists understand exactly how the process occurs. They have even
 sampled  found R12 in the stratosphere. R22 would also damage the ozone
 layer if it reached the straosphere but tests show that it does not.

 The issue is that UV breaks down R12, releasing chlorine atoms  the
 chlorine reacts strongly with ozone. In other words, R12 does not do the
 damage by iteslf, it acts as a carrier that delivers chloring gas to the
 stratosphere.

 Now, global warming is another story.

 Tom
 www.kegkits.com


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

of course they need a tax number on a tax exempt sale.  If you are paying 
tax, they dont need it.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12




 Kaleb C. Striplin, work wrote:

 Well, all they are required to do is see your license to purchase
 refrigerant.  They do not need a business license.  What you do with it 
 is
 none of their business either.

 Parts stores usually want my business (sales tax) license # before giving
 me a wholesale discount or sales tax waiver. They must have my tax
 license on file to waive the sales tax if I claim resale exemption from
 tax. I'm sure if I wanted them to order a keg of R12, they would want
 a photocopy of my EPA license. Nobody in my town has R12 of any size in
 stock anymore.

 Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Bob DuPuy

You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
its job to be profitable any more. R134 was adopted as a replacement
from among many better alternatives because it was patentable and
requires extensive maintenance and replacement of system components to
remain even marginally effective. Oh Yeah, now refrigeration is much
more highly taxed and regulated. Next it is going to be Help Help the
UN needs to save us all by taxing and controlling any use of energy
because the gas produced by all breathing life and any combustion has
been reclassified as a pollutant. Help Help the polar bears are
drowning.

LMAO,
Bob

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Craig McCluskey

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more.

I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
58.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread John Robbins

LarryT wrote:
 At last, the voice of Reality!!  DuPont got the Ozone scare started when 
 everybody and their brother was making it in garages and little factories 
 all over the world.   And DP didn;t get a penny from it - which was the 
 whole problem.  Now, as Bob so eloquently stated, DP has something protected 
 by US  foreign Patents which protects their bottom line.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.php




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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread LarryT

At last, the voice of Reality!!  DuPont got the Ozone scare started when 
everybody and their brother was making it in garages and little factories 
all over the world.   And DP didn;t get a penny from it - which was the 
whole problem.  Now, as Bob so eloquently stated, DP has something protected 
by US  foreign Patents which protects their bottom line.

Getting some environmentalist orgs to start marching  waving flags so a 
big corp. will make more money is the ultimate irony!

They started evaluating the ozone hole over antartica in the 80s and 
with such little historical data for someone to say the increased size is 
due to human intervention and not the natural way of things is absurd.

All the global warming computerized predictions fails to take into 
account the effects of clouds and rain.  Just think, billions and billions 
of $$s are being spent based on the computations of dozens of computer 
programs which often fail to predict a 12 snow storm that shows up the next 
morning  on the porch! (happened 3 or 4 years ago here)

 Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
.

- Original Message - 
From: Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12


 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more. R134 was adopted as a replacement
 from among many better alternatives because it was patentable and
 requires extensive maintenance and replacement of system components to
 remain even marginally effective. Oh Yeah, now refrigeration is much
 more highly taxed and regulated. Next it is going to be Help Help the
 UN needs to save us all by taxing and controlling any use of energy
 because the gas produced by all breathing life and any combustion has
 been reclassified as a pollutant. Help Help the polar bears are
 drowning.

 LMAO,
 Bob

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 -- 
 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 
 3:18 PM
 


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread andrew strasfogel

Here's the latest news on the accelerated melting of the polar ice caps but
not to worry, every word is probably a lie:

The Arctic ice cap is melting faster than previously thought, and it will
shrink 40 percent by 2050 in most regions, according to a National Oceanic
and Atmospheric Administration study released yesterday and set for
publication tomorrow in the journal *Geophysical Research Letters*.

The study concluded that Arctic sea ice will retreat hundreds of miles
farther from the coast of Alaska in the summer, opening up large areas of
water for fisherman and giving easier access to new areas for oil and
natural gas exploration.

The melting will also likely cause an upheaval in species, bringing new
predators to warmer waters and endangering those that depend on ice, the
study said.

NOAA oceanographer James Overland and agency meteorologist Muyin Wang based
their calculations on the carbon dioxide that is in the atmosphere. That
pollution will greatly diminish the ice by 2050, regardless of future curbs
on emissions, Overland said.

They also compared 20 climate change computer models with satellite
observations of Arctic ice cover, discarding models that did not accurately
track the ice cover for 20 years in the past while extending the accurate
models to predict the ice melt by 2050.

The amount of emissions we have already put out in the last 20 years will
stay around for 40 to 50 years, Overland said. I'm afraid to say that a
lot of impacts we will see in the next 30 to 40 years are pretty much
already established. The rate of ice loss now is faster than what was
depicted. This moves the threshold up (Doug Struck, *Washington
Post*http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090602499.html,
Sept. 7).

On 9/7/07, Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
its job to be profitable any more.

I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
58.

Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Mitch Haley



andrew strasfogel wrote:
 NOAA oceanographer James Overland and agency meteorologist Muyin Wang based
 their calculations on the carbon dioxide that is in the atmosphere. That
 pollution will greatly diminish the ice by 2050, regardless of future curbs
 on emissions, Overland said.

That's not a 'study', it is more like circular logic. Take your assumptions,
that small changes in CO2 levels cause global warming and that humans are
and will continue to cause CO2 levels to increase, and then you can calculate
a result which proves the point of your original assumptions. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

yea, the glaziers are melting.  Wonder why quite a few are expanding?

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: andrew strasfogel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12


 Here's the latest news on the accelerated melting of the polar ice caps 
 but
 not to worry, every word is probably a lie:


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Tom Hargrave

The scientists don't understand why either but they do measue traces of
R12 in the stratosphere. The other issue is that the free chlorine acts
as a catalyst to break down ozone.

Thanks, Tom
256-656-1924

-Original Message-
From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: 9/7/07 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more.

I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
58.

Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Barry Stark

Kaleb -
I thought that I heard that the Northern areas are receding and the south
pole is expanding.

Barry

 yea, the glaziers are melting.  Wonder why quite a few are expanding?



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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Tom Hargrave

Anyone who does not believe that R12 is bad for the ozone layer needs to
read this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

Tom
www.kegkits.com
 
Original Message
From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09/07/07 02:36 PM
To: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Mercedes Discussion List
mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The scientists don't understand why either but they do measue traces of
R12 in the stratosphere. The other issue is that the free chlorine acts
as a catalyst to break down ozone.

Thanks, Tom
256-656-1924

-Original Message-
From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: 9/7/07 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more.

I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
58.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

I am not saying it does or doesnt, I am only saying there is. or was, 
not enough evidence that it does.  As for wikipedia, you cant believe 
everything you read there.

Tom Hargrave wrote:
 Anyone who does not believe that R12 is bad for the ozone layer needs to
 read this article.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion
 
 Tom
 www.kegkits.com
  
 Original Message
 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 09/07/07 02:36 PM
 To: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Mercedes Discussion List
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 The scientists don't understand why either but they do measue traces of
 R12 in the stratosphere. The other issue is that the free chlorine acts
 as a catalyst to break down ozone.
 
 Thanks, Tom
 256-656-1924
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: 9/7/07 1:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
 
 On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more.
 
 I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
 wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
 would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
 available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
 58.
 
 
 Craig
 
 ___
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 For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
 For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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 http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
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-- 
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  94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D,
  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Trampas

What happened is Dupont's patent expired then the scientists found the
problem. Luckly Dupont had the solution in R134 which they have a patent
on... 

Trampas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:31 PM
To: 'Craig McCluskey'; 'Mercedes Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

The scientists don't understand why either but they do measue traces of
R12 in the stratosphere. The other issue is that the free chlorine acts
as a catalyst to break down ozone.

Thanks, Tom
256-656-1924

-Original Message-
From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: 9/7/07 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more.

I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
58.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

actually, that is not true either, that is, well, I guess, an urban 
legend of sorts.

Trampas wrote:
 What happened is Dupont's patent expired then the scientists found the
 problem. Luckly Dupont had the solution in R134 which they have a patent
 on... 
 
 Trampas

-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D,
  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread John Robbins

Trampas wrote:
 What happened is Dupont's patent expired then the scientists found
 the problem. Luckly Dupont had the solution in R134 which they have a
 patent on...

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.php


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

OK, we are waiting.


Kaleb C. Striplin, work wrote:
 and Im sure I can find out just as much proof to the contrary.  In other 
 words, who knows.

 ---
 Kaleb C. Striplin
   
   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread thargrav

This is just another myth. Dupont's Freon patent ran out in the 1950s, long 
before the ozone problem was discovered and they do not have a patent on 
R134a. There are 5 major manufacturers of R134a  Dupont is just one of them.

Tom
www.kegkits.com

Quoting Trampas [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 What happened is Dupont's patent expired then the scientists found the
 problem. Luckly Dupont had the solution in R134 which they have a
 patent
 on... 
 
 Trampas
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave
 Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:31 PM
 To: 'Craig McCluskey'; 'Mercedes Discussion List'
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
 
 The scientists don't understand why either but they do measue traces of
 R12 in the stratosphere. The other issue is that the free chlorine acts
 as a catalyst to break down ozone.
 
 Thanks, Tom
 256-656-1924
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: 9/7/07 1:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
 
 On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:25:09 -0500 Bob DuPuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
  continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
  sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
  think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
  significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
  gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in
 doing
  its job to be profitable any more.
 
 I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
 wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of
 152
 would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
 available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight
 of
 58.
 
 
 Craig
 
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Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
256-656-1924

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

And you're evidence is?
It is all very nice to try and discredit things we don't particularly 
want to hear but once all the polar bears have drowned it will be you 
and your super consumer mates who will have to try and explain that this 
is all part of a natural cycle.
All I want is the truth, be it ugly or not. At least then we know where 
we stand and can prepare, with things like huge moon bases.
To live in denial is not an option. However if it makes you feel better.

Bob DuPuy wrote:
 You pablum eater and kool aide drinkers crack me up. Ozone is
 continually created in the upper atmosphere in vast quantities by
 sunlight acting on the gases present. It is the height of hubris to
 think mans puny efforts even if they were intentional could have a
 significant effect. R12 was banned after very little evidence was
 gathered because it was too easy to produce and too efficient in doing
 its job to be profitable any more. R134 was adopted as a replacement
 from among many better alternatives because it was patentable and
 requires extensive maintenance and replacement of system components to
 remain even marginally effective. Oh Yeah, now refrigeration is much
 more highly taxed and regulated. Next it is going to be Help Help the
 UN needs to save us all by taxing and controlling any use of energy
 because the gas produced by all breathing life and any combustion has
 been reclassified as a pollutant. Help Help the polar bears are
 drowning.

 LMAO,
 Bob

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

Carbon tetrachloride is not freon. R12 Freon is CCl2F2 or
diclorodifluoromethane.
The boiling point of  diclorodifluoromethane at -29.8 °C vs. 1465 °C
for sodium chloride might explain why it's not found much in the
stratosphere.
FTR, the molecular weight of R12 is 121, and salt is 58, not that it matters.

 I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
 wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 152
 would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
 available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight of
 58.


 Craig

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

I believe you are able to correct wikipedia articles if you feel that 
they are not accurate. However make sure that you have references (no, 
using okiebenz listers as references is not going to work) and list them 
at the end of the article.
Perhaps you and the 'everything is sweet' crowd can get together and set 
the record straight. We wouldn't want falsehoods to be spread on the 
internet would we.

Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
 I am not saying it does or doesnt, I am only saying there is. or was, 
 not enough evidence that it does.  As for wikipedia, you cant believe 
 everything you read there.


   

   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

2007-09-07 Thread JFreezn

 
In a message dated 9/7/2007 4:35:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Anyone  who does not believe that R12 is bad for the ozone layer needs to
read this  article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion



Tom and all,
 
People who write for Wikipedia are not authenticated in any way!  You  can 
speak to any topic and if reading, all info must be taken with a grain  of salt 
 
I can tell you that one major volcanic eruption causes more ozone  depletion 
than all the controlled refrigerants EVER MADE!  You don't have  to believe 
that and I don't have to prove it.  
 
Further, the burping and farting of cows creates more ozone disruption each  
year than all of the controlled refrigerants ever released.  Believe  it or 
don't!  
 
So how do we ban volcanoes?  Do we bag all our cows and.or keep them  in a 
controlled environment?
 
I have been in the air conditioning field for more than 50 years and  still 
find it incredible that our governments acted so quickly  at the Montreal 
Protocol meetings to ban R12 (and others) production.  
 
Much to my dismay, I ran out of R12 this year.  Maybe I can bag  some cow 
methane!
 
By the way, I do read wikipedia and find the info mostly believable.   Most 
of the writers have some clue as to what they are talking about (somewhat  like 
this forum), but be careful what you assimilate.  
 
Jim  Friesen
Phoenix AZ
79 300SD, 264 K miles 
98 ML 320, 151 K  miles



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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

And that's the problem we have - too much science is based on a
priori knowledge - like that excess stomach acid makes stomach ulcers.
Finally someone had the audacity to culture one and found that they
are bacterial infections. The scientists had known that bacteria
couldn't live in the stomach due to the extreme acid levels (tell that
to the E. coli that I ate in Mexico once).
Therefore, without doing exhaustive research into the research
conducted into global warming and the ozone hole to determine
whether the scientific method was rigorously followed or not, we're
left with emotional a priori arguments with a sprinkling of facts and
assumptions from two opposing sides.
I can't tell which one is right, if either one is. I do think that it
is prudent to error on the side of assuming that we can make a
difference by reducing what we think might be exacerbating factors.
Yes, it will cost someone more money to do so, but they are paying
that money to someone else - it's another wealth re-distribution
scheme - invest in the new guys now, and you'll be OK.

On 9/7/07, Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And you're evidence is?
 It is all very nice to try and discredit things we don't particularly
 want to hear but once all the polar bears have drowned it will be you
 and your super consumer mates who will have to try and explain that this
 is all part of a natural cycle.
 All I want is the truth, be it ugly or not. At least then we know where
 we stand and can prepare, with things like huge moon bases.
 To live in denial is not an option. However if it makes you feel better.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

well you will be waiting a while then.

Hendrik wrote:
 OK, we are waiting.
 
 
 Kaleb C. Striplin, work wrote:
 and Im sure I can find out just as much proof to the contrary.  In other 
 words, who knows.

 ---
 Kaleb C. Striplin
   
   
 
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  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

Many of the scientists who supported this so called global warming 
problem are now backing down. All this supposed research started when, 
in the 80's? That is not long enough to see the big picture.  I guess 
our R12 and big SUV's are also warming up Mars too.  Wow, we really do 
polute alot, geez.


OK Don wrote:
 And that's the problem we have - too much science is based on a
 priori knowledge - like that excess stomach acid makes stomach ulcers.
 Finally someone had the audacity to culture one and found that they
 are bacterial infections. The scientists had known that bacteria
 couldn't live in the stomach due to the extreme acid levels (tell that
 to the E. coli that I ate in Mexico once).
 Therefore, without doing exhaustive research into the research
 conducted into global warming and the ozone hole to determine
 whether the scientific method was rigorously followed or not, we're
 left with emotional a priori arguments with a sprinkling of facts and
 assumptions from two opposing sides.
 I can't tell which one is right, if either one is. I do think that it
 is prudent to error on the side of assuming that we can make a
 difference by reducing what we think might be exacerbating factors.
 Yes, it will cost someone more money to do so, but they are paying
 that money to someone else - it's another wealth re-distribution
 scheme - invest in the new guys now, and you'll be OK.
 
 On 9/7/07, Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And you're evidence is?
 It is all very nice to try and discredit things we don't particularly
 want to hear but once all the polar bears have drowned it will be you
 and your super consumer mates who will have to try and explain that this
 is all part of a natural cycle.
 All I want is the truth, be it ugly or not. At least then we know where
 we stand and can prepare, with things like huge moon bases.
 To live in denial is not an option. However if it makes you feel better.

 

-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D,
  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Jim Cathey

 This is just another myth. Dupont's Freon patent ran out in the 1950s, 
 long
 before the ozone problem was discovered and they do not have a patent 
 on
 R134a. There are 5 major manufacturers of R134a  Dupont is just one 
 of them.

A patent holder may choose to license the patent to other
manufacturers, on any terms it likes.  A patent is a public
document, however, so if it is patented it should be possible
to find out.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

Correct. Wikipedia is a community project. Those with the
knowledge are supposed to write, edit, and correct the information.
In my book, that makes it common knowledge - which is what the
stomach ulcer episode I mentioned a few minutes ago in the Fix or
Sell? killer R12 thread was - common knowledge, and it was dead
wrong.

On 9/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Tom and all,

 People who write for Wikipedia are not authenticated in any way!  You  can
 speak to any topic and if reading, all info must be taken with a grain  of 
 salt
 I can tell you that one major volcanic eruption causes more ozone  depletion
 than all the controlled refrigerants EVER MADE!  You don't have  to believe
 that and I don't have to prove it.

 Further, the burping and farting of cows creates more ozone disruption each
 year than all of the controlled refrigerants ever released.  Believe  it or
 don't!

 So how do we ban volcanoes?  Do we bag all our cows and.or keep them  in a
 controlled environment?

 I have been in the air conditioning field for more than 50 years and  still
 find it incredible that our governments acted so quickly  at the Montreal
 Protocol meetings to ban R12 (and others) production.

 Much to my dismay, I ran out of R12 this year.  Maybe I can bag  some cow
 methane!

 By the way, I do read wikipedia and find the info mostly believable.   Most
 of the writers have some clue as to what they are talking about (somewhat  
 like
 this forum), but be careful what you assimilate.

 Jim  Friesen
 Phoenix AZ
 79 300SD, 264 K miles
 98 ML 320, 151 K  miles



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-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Jim Cathey

 I'm not sure the state of all research into this topic, but I've always
 wondered how carbon tetrachloride (freon) with a molecular weight of 
 152
 would be more prevalent in the upper atmosphere than the vastly more
 available sodium chloride (in sea water) which has a molecular weight 
 of
 58.

Floatability (so to speak) doesn't have as much to do with weight
as you might like.  Density?  Lithium is pretty light, yet doesn't
seem to float into the air much!

Freon is carbon tet. with two Cl's replaced with F's.
C-Cl2-F2 versus C-Cl4.

I do not believe the hype around the ozone connection, but even
if it was questionable they could have accomplished their aims
my mandating new construction use the new refrigerant, and let
the demand for the old die off naturally rather than turn it into
a substance as illegal to handle as crack.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

2007-09-07 Thread archer



 In a message dated 9/7/2007 4:35:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Anyone  who does not believe that R12 is bad for the ozone layer needs to
 read this  article.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

 Tom and all,
 People who write for Wikipedia are not authenticated in any way!  You  can
 speak to any topic and if reading, all info must be taken with a grain  of 
 salt
 I can tell you that one major volcanic eruption causes more ozone 
 depletion
 than all the controlled refrigerants EVER MADE!  You don't have  to 
 believe
 that and I don't have to prove it.
 Further, the burping and farting of cows creates more ozone disruption 
 each
 year than all of the controlled refrigerants ever released.  Believe  it 
 or
 don't!
 So how do we ban volcanoes?  Do we bag all our cows and.or keep them  in a 
   controlled environment?
 I have been in the air conditioning field for more than 50 years and 
 still
 find it incredible that our governments acted so quickly  at the Montreal
 Protocol meetings to ban R12 (and others) production.
 Much to my dismay, I ran out of R12 this year.  Maybe I can bag  some cow
 methane!
 By the way, I do read wikipedia and find the info mostly believable. 
 Most
 of the writers have some clue as to what they are talking about (somewhat 
 like
 this forum), but be careful what you assimilate.
 Jim  Friesen
 Phoenix AZ
 79 300SD, 264 K miles
 98 ML 320, 151 K  miles

There is supposed to be an ozone shortage at high altitudes yet ozone is a 
major constituent of air pollution:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/aq/
Does this polluting ozone rise to the protective ozone layers?
Gerry 


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

I asked the same question a while back and a local atmospheric
scientist told me that no - the two never meet. Maybe we need a match
maker.

 There is supposed to be an ozone shortage at high altitudes yet ozone is a
 major constituent of air pollution:
 http://www.nws.noaa.gov/aq/
 Does this polluting ozone rise to the protective ozone layers?
 Gerry

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

Nobody wants to be the 'boy who cried wolf' but I guess we can wait till 
we have conclusive proof that we are damaging the environment and then 
perhaps think about ways we could possibly perhaps maybe reduce 
emissions by .0008%. Perhaps instead of buying that 7 liter SUV to ferry 
the kids to soccer, we'll opt for the 6.8 liter and get that warm fussy 
feeling that we have personally saved the planet from becoming a hot house.
The question is, will it hurt us to be more efficient in our use of 
energy and will it hurt us to think about stuff apart from our own 
personal comfort levels. I know it does hurt some.

Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
 Many of the scientists who supported this so called global warming 
 problem are now backing down. All this supposed research started when, 
 in the 80's? That is not long enough to see the big picture.  I guess 
 our R12 and big SUV's are also warming up Mars too.  Wow, we really do 
 polute alot, geez.


   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

Apart from everything else, what do you think would happen to DuPont if 
they where found out to be deliberately using the global warming issue 
to increase profits?
Probably nothing in the US (well they would get a medal from the Prez 
for being outstanding corporate citizens) but in the PC EU they would be 
hounded by the greenies.

Jim Cathey wrote:
 This is just another myth. Dupont's Freon patent ran out in the 1950s, 
 long
 before the ozone problem was discovered and they do not have a patent 
 on
 R134a. There are 5 major manufacturers of R134a  Dupont is just one 
 of them.
 

 A patent holder may choose to license the patent to other
 manufacturers, on any terms it likes.  A patent is a public
 document, however, so if it is patented it should be possible
 to find out.

 -- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

 From my understanding wikipedia works like an online forum, people 
write stuff and then other people can correct that if they feel they 
need to.
Also you will note that citations and references are required to 
substantiate what you wrote.
In regards to the banning of R12, we cannot stop volcanoes and we cannot 
stop livestock (and us) from farting but we can substitute a man made 
substance with another less evil man made substance. Are you starting to 
see a picture here.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Tom and all,
  
 People who write for Wikipedia are not authenticated in any way!  You  can 
 speak to any topic and if reading, all info must be taken with a grain  of 
 salt  
 I can tell you that one major volcanic eruption causes more ozone  depletion 
 than all the controlled refrigerants EVER MADE!  You don't have  to believe 
 that and I don't have to prove it.  
  
 Further, the burping and farting of cows creates more ozone disruption each  
 year than all of the controlled refrigerants ever released.  Believe  it or 
 don't!  
  
 So how do we ban volcanoes?  Do we bag all our cows and.or keep them  in a 
 controlled environment?
  
 I have been in the air conditioning field for more than 50 years and  still 
 find it incredible that our governments acted so quickly  at the Montreal 
 Protocol meetings to ban R12 (and others) production.  
  
 Much to my dismay, I ran out of R12 this year.  Maybe I can bag  some cow 
 methane!
  
 By the way, I do read wikipedia and find the info mostly believable.   Most 
 of the writers have some clue as to what they are talking about (somewhat  
 like 
 this forum), but be careful what you assimilate.  
  
 Jim  Friesen
   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Craig McCluskey

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:42:11 -0500 OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Carbon tetrachloride is not freon. R12 Freon is CCl2F2 or
 diclorodifluoromethane.

Oops. You're right, CCl2F2, not CCl4.


 The boiling point of  diclorodifluoromethane at -29.8 °C vs. 1465 °C
 for sodium chloride might explain why it's not found much in the
 stratosphere.
 FTR, the molecular weight of R12 is 121, and salt is 58, not that it
 matters.

Thanks,


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12/Wickapoodia (my spelling)

I think they are 2 different things, seems I heard that.

archer wrote:
 
 In a message dated 9/7/2007 4:35:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Anyone  who does not believe that R12 is bad for the ozone layer needs to
 read this  article.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion
 
 Tom and all,
 People who write for Wikipedia are not authenticated in any way!  You  can
 speak to any topic and if reading, all info must be taken with a grain  of 
 salt
 I can tell you that one major volcanic eruption causes more ozone 
 depletion
 than all the controlled refrigerants EVER MADE!  You don't have  to 
 believe
 that and I don't have to prove it.
 Further, the burping and farting of cows creates more ozone disruption 
 each
 year than all of the controlled refrigerants ever released.  Believe  it 
 or
 don't!
 So how do we ban volcanoes?  Do we bag all our cows and.or keep them  in a 
   controlled environment?
 I have been in the air conditioning field for more than 50 years and 
 still
 find it incredible that our governments acted so quickly  at the Montreal
 Protocol meetings to ban R12 (and others) production.
 Much to my dismay, I ran out of R12 this year.  Maybe I can bag  some cow
 methane!
 By the way, I do read wikipedia and find the info mostly believable. 
 Most
 of the writers have some clue as to what they are talking about (somewhat 
 like
 this forum), but be careful what you assimilate.
 Jim  Friesen
 Phoenix AZ
 79 300SD, 264 K miles
 98 ML 320, 151 K  miles
 
 There is supposed to be an ozone shortage at high altitudes yet ozone is a 
 major constituent of air pollution:
 http://www.nws.noaa.gov/aq/
 Does this polluting ozone rise to the protective ozone layers?
 Gerry 
 
 
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  94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D,
  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

heck no, if you have a need for a big vehicle for hauling, then by all 
means,  have it.  Just to drive around in is stupid.  Everyone should be 
more efficient, but I do not think they should be forced to.  Its up to 
the individual.

Hendrik wrote:
 Nobody wants to be the 'boy who cried wolf' but I guess we can wait till 
 we have conclusive proof that we are damaging the environment and then 
 perhaps think about ways we could possibly perhaps maybe reduce 
 emissions by .0008%. Perhaps instead of buying that 7 liter SUV to ferry 
 the kids to soccer, we'll opt for the 6.8 liter and get that warm fussy 
 feeling that we have personally saved the planet from becoming a hot house.
 The question is, will it hurt us to be more efficient in our use of 
 energy and will it hurt us to think about stuff apart from our own 
 personal comfort levels. I know it does hurt some.
 
 Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
 Many of the scientists who supported this so called global warming 
 problem are now backing down. All this supposed research started when, 
 in the 80's? That is not long enough to see the big picture.  I guess 
 our R12 and big SUV's are also warming up Mars too.  Wow, we really do 
 polute alot, geez.


   
 
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  94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D,
  90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread Kevin Kraly

Perhaps instead of buying that 7 liter SUV to ferry
the kids to soccer, we'll opt for the 6.8 liter and get that warm, fussy 
feeling that we have personally saved the planet from becoming a hot house.

In my family fleet, there have been quite a few changes in vehicles over the 
past couple years, many due to my suggestions.  The 12MPG Suburban was 
replaced by a 21MPG minivan.  The PT cruiser was replaced by the HHR which 
gets slightly better fuel mileage.  The SD averages in the mid 20's to 
30MPG.  Speaking of huge, lumbering SUV's, I actually toyed with the idea of 
getting a Frod Excursion diesel to be the hauling/towing vehicle before 
buying the Sprinter.  The Excursion is lucky to get 17MPG on the highway 
without any load or passengers in it!  The   Sprinter also gets better 
mileage compared to the Cummins diesel pickup that it replaced, 22MPG 
average for the Sprinter compared to 15 for the pickup.  It's also a bit 
shorter, holds more people, and has a MUCH better turning circle.  All of 
the fuel cost savings is enough to allow the boat to come out of hiding for 
the summer.

Kevin in Portland, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula who got dropped off at MBI today for much needed 
attention
2006 Sprinter PV 1.6Kmi, The Box (what is the German word for Box?) 


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-07 Thread E M

I kind of had my eye on a small displacement Lambo LM002, it's only
5.2litres.  Mind you, those 12 cylinders do burn through that 76
gallon/ 290
litre tank of premium gas kind of fast. hee hee.  Hmm, maybe a diesel
conversion project?? :-)

Ed
300E

On 08/09/2007, Kevin Kraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Perhaps instead of buying that 7 liter SUV to ferry
 the kids to soccer, we'll opt for the 6.8 liter and get that warm, fussy
 feeling that we have personally saved the planet from becoming a hot
 house.

 In my family fleet, there have been quite a few changes in vehicles over
 the
 past couple years, many due to my suggestions.  The 12MPG Suburban was
 replaced by a 21MPG minivan.  The PT cruiser was replaced by the HHR which
 gets slightly better fuel mileage.  The SD averages in the mid 20's to
 30MPG.  Speaking of huge, lumbering SUV's, I actually toyed with the idea
 of
 getting a Frod Excursion diesel to be the hauling/towing vehicle before
 buying the Sprinter.  The Excursion is lucky to get 17MPG on the highway
 without any load or passengers in it!  The   Sprinter also gets better
 mileage compared to the Cummins diesel pickup that it replaced, 22MPG
 average for the Sprinter compared to 15 for the pickup.  It's also a bit
 shorter, holds more people, and has a MUCH better turning circle.  All of
 the fuel cost savings is enough to allow the boat to come out of hiding
 for
 the summer.

 Kevin in Portland, OR
 1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula who got dropped off at MBI today for much needed
 attention
 2006 Sprinter PV 1.6Kmi, The Box (what is the German word for Box?)


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Robert Tara Ludwick

I think you should sell the thing to me for $50 :-)
Seriously though, how long ago was the hose fixed before? Where exactly 
is it leaking now? the middle of the hose, at the crimp fittings? When 
the  hose assembly was  rebuilt before, did they cut off the crimp 
collars and put the new hose on, or did they cut the metal and weld new 
ends on?  What test method was used to determine that the hose  was the 
culprit,  sniffer,  UV dye ?

Robert

David Johnson wrote:
 The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking.  It was rebuilt once before, 
 so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix it.  The total 
 bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts from Rusty.  
   I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie and 
 sell the car.  I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many hours of 
 labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern, the new items 
 that I have put in include the following: radiator, radiator hoses, oil 
 cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand pump,  transmission 
 lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks, front crank seal, all door 
 vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the fuel door, front seat 
 cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights, and climate control panel.  
 When replacing the door vacuum valves, I also Dyna-mat all the doors. Put in 
 new speakers front and rear. New CD player. And of course, Mobil1 throughout. 
   The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K.  The only thing 
 that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2 months ago. 
   The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really need 
 to shell out for this job.  At this point the wife is asking how much more 
 money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't answer her.  I hate 
 to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket item, and then the next 
 day something else comes up.  If I decide to sell, how much should I ask for, 
 recongizing that it's worth a lot more to me than the potential buyer.
   Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
   David
   83 300 DT
   230K 


 -
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  Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Kevin Kraly

If you decided to sell the old 300Dt, what would replace it?  You spent lots 
of money on it that you'll certainly never get back, and the chances are 
pretty good that a similar car may need the same things.  If you're stickin' 
with Mercedes diesels, keep it rather than starting all over with another 
car, especially if it has a solid, rust free body.

Kevin in Portland, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula
2006 Sprinter PV 1.5K miles, The Box 


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin, work

If you love the car I would fix it.   You cant buy another one for that 
amount.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?


 The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking.  It was rebuilt once 
 before, so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix it. 
 The total bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts from 
 Rusty.
  I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie and 
 sell the car.  I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many hours of 
 labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern, the new 
 items that I have put in include the following: radiator, radiator hoses, 
 oil cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand pump, 
 transmission lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks, front crank 
 seal, all door vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the fuel door, 
 front seat cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights, and climate 
 control panel.  When replacing the door vacuum valves, I also Dyna-mat all 
 the doors. Put in new speakers front and rear. New CD player. And of 
 course, Mobil1 throughout.
  The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K.  The only thing 
 that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2 months ago.
  The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really 
 need to shell out for this job.  At this point the wife is asking how much 
 more money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't answer her. 
 I hate to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket item, and 
 then the next day something else comes up.  If I decide to sell, how much 
 should I ask for, recongizing that it's worth a lot more to me than the 
 potential buyer.
  Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
  David
  83 300 DT
  230K


 -
 Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Curt Raymond


Everybody gets to this point with a car sometime.
I'd say fix it or just live without AC. You didn't say where you live so that 
might not be possible. I've been without AC for 4 years and its annoying but 
not that big a deal.

I'd also suggest that fixing the AC will make the car easier to sell.

Where are you located? I've been looking for another car for awhile now.


-Curt

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking.  It was rebuilt once
 before, so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix
 it.  The total bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts
 from Rusty.  
  I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie
 and sell the car.  I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many
 hours of labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern,
 the new items that I have put in include the following: radiator,
 radiator hoses, oil cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand
 pump,  transmission lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks,
 front crank seal, all door vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the
 fuel door, front seat cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights,
 and climate control panel.  When replacing the door vacuum valves, I
 also Dyna-mat all the doors. Put in new speakers front and rear. New CD
 player. And of course, Mobil1 throughout. 
  The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K.  The only
 thing that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2
 months ago. 
  The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really
 need to shell out for this job.  At this point the wife is asking how
 much more money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't
 answer her.  I hate to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket
 item, and then the next day something else comes up.  If I decide to
 sell, how much should I ask for, recongizing that it's worth a lot more
 to me than the potential buyer.
  Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
  David
  83 300 DT
  230K 

   
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Robert,
  I don't know how long ago and how the hose was rebuilt.This was done by the 
previous ownber.
  The leak is at the bottom, where the crimp fitting is. I saw drops of fluid 
coming out, and it was confirmed with UV light.  
  The labor for this thing is 3 hours, plus the cost of the evacuation, and 
filling up with 3 lbs of refrigerant. 
  David

Robert  Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think you should sell the thing to me for $50 :-)
Seriously though, how long ago was the hose fixed before? Where exactly 
is it leaking now? the middle of the hose, at the crimp fittings? When 
   
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and lay it on us.
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Jim Cathey

   The labor for this thing is 3 hours, plus the cost of the 
 evacuation, and filling up with 3 lbs of refrigerant.

For the price you were quoted you could remove it yourself and take
it to a hose shop for another (proper) rebuild, and _buy_ all the
AC tools, and supplies, to do it yourself.  And still have enough
left over to supply yourself with beer for the session and go out
to a celebratory dinner afterwards.

That's what I did.  And never regretted it!  The AC tools have
come in handy innumerable times since.  I can't even calculate
how much money I _haven't_ spent in order to have usable AC in
_all_ of our cars so-equipped.

It'll be hard to sell a car for a decent price with a leaking AC,
you should fix it first.  And once it's fixed, why sell it?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Kevin,
  This car was born and kept in California for 20 years, and then to AZ, so 
there's no rust problem. That's one reason I'm attached to the car. 
  On the other hand, I'd be really screwed if I fix this and then the 
transmission develops a problem,  
  If I sell this, probably will get a newer Honda CRV or something like that.
  David 

Kevin Kraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If you decided to sell the old 300Dt, what would replace it? You spent lots 
of money on it that you'll certainly never get back, and the chances are 
pretty good that a similar car may need the same things. 
   
-
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

I'm in Arizona, so the AC is almost a necessity for most of the year. 
  I really need to fix or sell the car, unfortunately.

Curt Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
Everybody gets to this point with a car sometime.
I'd say fix it or just live without AC. You didn't say where you live so that 
might not be possible. I've been without AC for 4 years and its annoying but 
not that big a deal.

I'd also suggest that fixing the AC will make the car easier to sell.

Where are you located? I've been looking for another car for awhile now.


-Curt

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Johnson 
Subject: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking. It was rebuilt once
before, so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix
it. The total bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts
from Rusty. 
I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie
and sell the car. I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many
hours of labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern,
the new items that I have put in include the following: radiator,
radiator hoses, oil cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand
pump, transmission lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks,
front crank seal, all door vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the
fuel door, front seat cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights,
and climate control panel. When replacing the door vacuum valves, I
also Dyna-mat all the doors. Put in new speakers front and rear. New CD
player. And of course, Mobil1 throughout. 
The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K. The only
thing that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2
months ago. 
The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really
need to shell out for this job. At this point the wife is asking how
much more money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't
answer her. I hate to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket
item, and then the next day something else comes up. If I decide to
sell, how much should I ask for, recongizing that it's worth a lot more
to me than the potential buyer.
Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
David
83 300 DT
230K 


-
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Loren Faeth

If you bought a new car, what would the total of car payments, 
increased cost of insurance and so forth be?  Compare that to the 
total you have spent for a similar period of time for the Benz.  I am 
pretty sure the old Diesel will come out smelling like a rose even 
after spending the bucks to have the AC fixed..  Mine do every time I 
do the math.  Funny how wives complain about maintaining an 
inexpensive reliable car, but never complain about $400-$500 car 
payments, because it is the same each month.

Counter that by setting up a transportation budget of say $300 a 
month in a separate account.  As it accumulates, you will have the 
funds to pay for repairs and even replacement cars, and can show it 
is less expensive that a new hunk of detroit or nippon iron


At 08:13 AM 9/6/2007, you wrote:
If you love the car I would fix it.   You cant buy another one for that
amount.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message -
From: David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?


  The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking.  It was rebuilt once
  before, so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix it.
  The total bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts from
  Rusty.
   I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie and
  sell the car.  I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many hours of
  labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern, the new
  items that I have put in include the following: radiator, radiator hoses,
  oil cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand pump,
  transmission lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks, front crank
  seal, all door vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the fuel door,
  front seat cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights, and climate
  control panel.  When replacing the door vacuum valves, I also Dyna-mat all
  the doors. Put in new speakers front and rear. New CD player. And of
  course, Mobil1 throughout.
   The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K.  The only thing
  that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2 months ago.
   The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really
  need to shell out for this job.  At this point the wife is asking how much
  more money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't answer her.
  I hate to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket item, and
  then the next day something else comes up.  If I decide to sell, how much
  should I ask for, recongizing that it's worth a lot more to me than the
  potential buyer.
   Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
   David
   83 300 DT
   230K
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?



Jim Cathey wrote:
 For the price you were quoted you could remove it yourself and take
 it to a hose shop for another (proper) rebuild, and _buy_ all the
 AC tools, and supplies, to do it yourself. 

And if you're lucky (they are cheap, but hard to find unless you buy
ahead of the need) you'll find a used R12 reclaimer for $100-200. 
The shop wants to reclaim your R12 and sell it to a recycler, then
charge you for the new R12 they put in your system. You should be
able to suck the R12 out of your system, replace or fix the hose,
replace the receiver/dryer, and put your old R12 back in if you
have the machine. Maybe you'll have to buy a 12oz can to top it off. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread ernest breakfield

David,

consider what you could buy to replace it with; even though what 
you've got now isn't exactly a low-mileage example, certainly it would 
cost more to buy something else comparable than it will cost to repair 
what you have now, and there's no guarantee you wouldn't have the issues 
with the new one. (FWIW, i also just went through several hundred 
dollars worth of work on the AC in mine as a result of poor work done by 
a PO; AC is a life-support requirement for us where we live and travel, 
it's not 'optional'. although your repair estimate sounds high, also 
consider that if the AC needs repair and isn't attended to promptly, 
it's likely to have parts dry out and it will require more to properly 
repair the system than the vehicle could be sold for. because of these 
things, i, for one, wouldn't consider buying a vehicle without working AC.)
if the core of the vehicle is in good shape 
(body/chassis/driveline), if it were me, i'd stick with what you've 
got... although if you really *needed* to replace all the things you 
listed, i have to wonder how good a condition the vehicle was/is in. 
(things like shocks, tires, headlights and windshields can't be counted, 
as they're somewhat 'wear' items, and would be consumables that would 
eventually require replacement on any vehicle.)


cheers!
e


David Johnson wrote:
 The AC manifold hose in my 83 300 DT is leaking.  It was rebuilt once before, 
 so my trusted indy recommended a replacement if I want to fix it.  The total 
 bill will be in the neighborhood of $800-900, with parts from Rusty.  
   I don't know if I should proceed this route or cut my emotional tie and 
 sell the car.  I've owned this baby for 3 years and have put many hours of 
 labor (and a fair amount of money) into it. From stem to stern, the new items 
 that I have put in include the following: radiator, radiator hoses, oil 
 cooler, thermostat, fuel injectors, manual fuel hand pump,  transmission 
 lines to cooler, alternator, brake lines, shocks, front crank seal, all door 
 vacuum valves as well as in the trunk and by the fuel door, front seat 
 cushions, tires, front windshield, headlights, and climate control panel.  
 When replacing the door vacuum valves, I also Dyna-mat all the doors. Put in 
 new speakers front and rear. New CD player. And of course, Mobil1 throughout. 
   The car runs great and has been very reliable, with 230K.  The only thing 
 that does not work is the trip odometer which failed about 2 months ago. 
   The AC manifold hose repair is beyond my capability, so I will really need 
 to shell out for this job.  At this point the wife is asking how much more 
 money we will need to spend on the car and I really can't answer her.  I hate 
 to say to her that this is really the last big-ticket item, and then the next 
 day something else comes up.  If I decide to sell, how much should I ask for, 
 recongizing that it's worth a lot more to me than the potential buyer.
   Any words of wisdom from the list will be appreciated.
   David
   83 300 DT
   230K 

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?



David Johnson wrote:
  I'm just worried about fixing this and then something like a transmission 
 problem crops up.

When you shift from park to reverse, how long does it take before reverse
engages?

You could probably sell a car like that just needs the A/C recharged in the
rust belt for a good bit of money. Ask some of our Canadian listers if they'd
like your car. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Loren,
  I agree.  Mathematically, you're right.  The Car Talk guys are also in this 
camp.
  One other thing that the wife brought up was how safe is the car compared to 
the new ones with airbags, and all the likes. 
  David

Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If you bought a new car, what would the total of car payments, 
increased cost of insurance and so forth be? Compare that to the 
total you have spent for a similar period of time for the Benz. I 
   
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin, work

If you are thinking about getting a Honda, a Mercedes is probably not for 
you in the first place.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?


 Kevin,
  This car was born and kept in California for 20 years, and then to AZ, so 
 there's no rust problem. That's one reason I'm attached to the car.
  On the other hand, I'd be really screwed if I fix this and then the 
 transmission develops a problem,
  If I sell this, probably will get a newer Honda CRV or something like 
 that.
  David

 Kevin Kraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If you decided to sell the old 300Dt, what would replace it? You spent 
 lots
 of money on it that you'll certainly never get back, and the chances are
 pretty good that a similar car may need the same things.

 -
 Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Ernest,
  A lot of the things that I replaced were the result of new owner excitement 
syndrome.  For example, I replaced the shocks and the seat cushions because I 
figured they must have been out with time. The only  problems that I 
encountered were leaking oil cooler,  faltering alt with the symptom of 
headlight dimming intermittently, leaking front crank seal, and malfunctioning 
climate control panel.  Since I was there taking the oil cooler out, I replaced 
the radiator, hoses, thermostats, and belts, one again figuring that the car is 
1983, and there ought to have been some wear and tear on these items.  
  The PO spent a lot of money on this car, too, with all the receipts, etc.  He 
did have a lousy indy for the last 3 years of his experience, though.  This guy 
replaced the front crank seal only 1 year before it started leaking again. 
  My indy sais the compressor is still good. Is there a way to prognosticate on 
compressor, dryer, etc?
  Davud
ernest breakfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  David,

consider what you could buy to replace it with; even though what 
you've got now isn't exactly a low-mileage example, certainly it would 
cost more to buy something else comparable than it will cost to repair 
what you have now, and there's no guarantee you wouldn't have the issues 
with the new one. (FWIW, i also just went through several hundred 
dollars worth of work on the AC in mine as a result of poor work done by 
a PO; AC is a life-support requirement for us where we live and travel, 
it's not 'optional'. although your repair estimate sounds high, also 
consider that if the AC needs repair and isn't attended to promptly, 
it's likely to have parts dry out and it will require more to properly 
repair the system than the vehicle could be sold for. because of these 
things, i, for one, wouldn't consider buying a vehicle without working AC.)
if the core of the vehicle is in good shape 
(body/chassis/driveline), if it were me, i'd stick with what you've 
got... although if you really *needed* to replace all the things you 
listed, i have to wonder how good a condition the vehicle was/is in. 
(things like shocks, tires, headlights and windshields can't be counted, 
as they're somewhat 'wear' items, and would be consumables that would 
eventually require replacement on any vehicle.)

   
-
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, 
photos  more. 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?



David Johnson wrote:
   My indy sais the compressor is still good. Is there a way to prognosticate
 on compressor, dryer, etc?

Compressors last a long time, provided they are fed plentiful dry freon
with adequate oil in it. Dryers ($25-50) should be replaced whenever
you open the system for repair. Pretend it's an expensive fuel filter
and replace it as a maintenance item.  
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread ernest breakfield

hi David!

if you don't need to worry about the compressor (and it sounds like 
you don't), i'd consider the receiver/dryer a filter, and replace it if 
i had the system open to do any work (especially if the POs service was 
questionable!). for the prices you were quoting, i would think that 
should have already been included in the estimate.


cheers!
e


David Johnson wrote:
 Ernest,
   A lot of the things that I replaced were the result of new owner 
 excitement syndrome.  For example, I replaced the shocks and the seat 
 cushions because I figured they must have been out with time. The only  
 problems that I encountered were leaking oil cooler,  faltering alt with the 
 symptom of headlight dimming intermittently, leaking front crank seal, and 
 malfunctioning climate control panel.  Since I was there taking the oil 
 cooler out, I replaced the radiator, hoses, thermostats, and belts, one again 
 figuring that the car is 1983, and there ought to have been some wear and 
 tear on these items.  
   The PO spent a lot of money on this car, too, with all the receipts, etc.  
 He did have a lousy indy for the last 3 years of his experience, though.  
 This guy replaced the front crank seal only 1 year before it started leaking 
 again. 
   My indy sais the compressor is still good. Is there a way to prognosticate 
 on compressor, dryer, etc?
   Davud
 ernest breakfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   David,

 consider what you could buy to replace it with; even though what 
 you've got now isn't exactly a low-mileage example, certainly it would 
 cost more to buy something else comparable than it will cost to repair 
 what you have now, and there's no guarantee you wouldn't have the issues 
 with the new one. (FWIW, i also just went through several hundred 
 dollars worth of work on the AC in mine as a result of poor work done by 
 a PO; AC is a life-support requirement for us where we live and travel, 
 it's not 'optional'. although your repair estimate sounds high, also 
 consider that if the AC needs repair and isn't attended to promptly, 
 it's likely to have parts dry out and it will require more to properly 
 repair the system than the vehicle could be sold for. because of these 
 things, i, for one, wouldn't consider buying a vehicle without working AC.)
 if the core of the vehicle is in good shape 
 (body/chassis/driveline), if it were me, i'd stick with what you've 
 got... although if you really *needed* to replace all the things you 
 listed, i have to wonder how good a condition the vehicle was/is in. 
 (things like shocks, tires, headlights and windshields can't be counted, 
 as they're somewhat 'wear' items, and would be consumables that would 
 eventually require replacement on any vehicle.)


 -
 Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, 
 news, photos  more. 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread JFreezn

 
In a message dated 9/6/2007 8:11:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm in  Arizona, so the AC is almost a necessity for most of the year. 
I  really need to fix or sell the car, unfortunately.



David,
 
The price you got ($800 ) is fair considering you are replacing a hose unit  
that terminates under the dash on one end, and you are retaining R12, I  hope. 
  The AC system on an early Mercedes is marginal for really hot  days  (we 
just recorded 32 days over 110 degrees) so don' t let them sub  any other 
refrigerant.
The dryer should not need replacing if the system has held residual  pressure 
in it.  
 
Considering your tags are about $35, a step up to a used SUV would  bump that 
to about $300/yr, plus insurance will be higher for an SUV, just  because it 
is.  In your MB future, rear spheres will probably show up on  the fix it list 
before the trans goes.  Drive shaft work is a possibility,  too.
 
I really feel that any clean drivable Mercedes deserves to be fixed  forever! 
 You will be able to find someone who wants your  TD at a fair price, with or 
without AC.  Ideally, this car should be owned  by someone who wants to do 
all his own work. The labor will kill you, even  though parts are readily 
available, and probably cheaper than a Honda.
 
Just my $.02  

Jim  Friesen
Phoenix AZ
79 300SD, 264 K miles (never been in the shop for  repairs in 25 years)
98 ML 320, 151 K miles (once since I've owned  it)




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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Sometimes 1 or 2 seconds.

Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  

David Johnson wrote:
 I'm just worried about fixing this and then something like a transmission 
 problem crops up.

When you shift from park to reverse, how long does it take before reverse
engages?

You
   
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Alex Chamberlain

On 9/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I really feel that any clean drivable Mercedes deserves to be fixed  forever!

Amen to that!

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread ernest breakfield

Jim,

no sphere issues; unless he mistyped it (twice!), David's talking 
about a sedan, not a wagon.


cheers!
e


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[snip]
 In your MB future, rear spheres will probably show up on  the fix it list 
 before the trans goes.
[snip]
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Jim,
  I maybe wrong, but I recall the tag was like $21 per year, the lowest that I 
ever have to pay.
  CN

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
In a message dated 9/6/2007 8:11:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm in Arizona, so the AC is almost a necessity for most of the year. 
I really need to fix or sell the car, unfortunately.



David,

The price you got ($800 ) is fair considering you are replacing a hose unit 
that terminates under the dash on one end, and you are retaining R12, I hope. 
The AC system on an early Mercedes is marginal for really hot days (we 
just recorded 32 days over 110 degrees) so don' t let them sub any other 
refrigerant.
The dryer should not need replacing if the system has held residual pressure 
in it. 

Considering your tags are about $35, a 
   
-
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Robert Rentfro

For my '77 300D, I just paid $19.95 for emissions and $18 for the tag I seem
to recall. Pretty much the cheapest thing going in AZ.

Bob R. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of David Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:48 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Jim,
  I maybe wrong, but I recall the tag was like $21 per year, the lowest that
I ever have to pay.
  CN

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 9/6/2007 8:11:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm in Arizona, so the AC is almost a necessity for most of the year. 
I really need to fix or sell the car, unfortunately.

David,

The price you got ($800 ) is fair considering you are replacing a hose unit 
that terminates under the dash on one end, and you are retaining R12, I
hope. 
The AC system on an early Mercedes is marginal for really hot days (we 
just recorded 32 days over 110 degrees) so don' t let them sub any other 
refrigerant.
The dryer should not need replacing if the system has held residual pressure

in it. 

Considering your tags are about $35, a 

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Robert,
  Thanks for your advice.
  I'll check with the local shop.  What kills me is the labotr to evacuate the 
R12 and to put the new hose on is listed as 3 hours by the book, plus 3 lbs of 
the R12.
  It's a slow leak, with drops of dye-colored fluid coming out right where the 
crimp fitting is. 
  David
  

Robert  Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If it's just leaking around the crimp, there's no reason that you 
couldn't get a new piece of rubber put on your assembly for $20-40 . 
About the only time that you can't is if the metal part is pitted ( not 
likely with the car being in that climate all it's life ) or if the 
previous repair involved welding new metal ends on ( it would be 
noticeable ), if not, with the assembly off, you could send the hose out 
for new rubber instead of a $300 new assembly. If you were closer, I'd 
say bring it by and I'll put a new chunk of rubber on it, but the 
shipping both ways would probably be more than taking it to a local hose 
shop and I'd be willing to bet there are a number of shops there that 
will fix that hose. If you look in the yellow pages under hoses, you 
should be able to find a hydraulic hose shop that also does AC hose.

If having a shop do it all, they should be willing to send the hose out, 
there;'s nothing wrong with old assemblies with new rubber.
If it's all leaked out already, you could yank the hose yourself and 
take it to a hose shop, then pop it back on along with a new drier , 
and then take it in to get vacuumed and recharged for a heck of a lot 
less than $800.

This is assuming that the leak is that fast. How long did it take to 
leak out and is it still R12 or has it been switched to R134a. If it's a 
very slow leak and it's still r12, you can go to http://www.epatest.com/ 
and take the test ( it's an open book test online, if you've got any 
smarts at all, you can pass it ) and you can then buy individual cans of 
R12 and top it off. If it's R134a and a slow leak, that ones a no 
brainer, you can get that at the local parts store and top it off.

If you sell it and buy a new car, you'll be begging for the days that 
you were only faced with an $800 repair bill. My Mother bought a new 
Toyota Camry that's still under warranty, and every time it goes in for 
scheduled service, it comes out with a bill for between $500-1500 for 
non covered items, and this is all on top of car payments. Newer cars 
rarely make it out of a shop for under a grand these days. We have a 
habit of getting rather spoiled with our old European cars and whining 
about what are basically cheap repairs by modern car standards.

I've got one lady with a '90 volvo who is facing about a $800 bill for a 
window regulator , timing belts and idlers, water pump and a few other 
regular maintenance items. He husband wants her to sell the thing and 
buy a new car because it's going to cost so much. Over the last 5 years 
she's averaged ( including the ones needed) about $600 a year upkeep to 
own that car ( that includes a seriously overpriced repair done by 
someone else before she found me ) She'll spend more than that on 2 
months payments and the difference in her insurance premium for a new 
car over that time if she goes that route, and that's before new car 
maintenance expense so they'll be in for a rude awakening .

Something to think about.

--Robert

David Johnson wrote:
 Robert,
 I don't know how long ago and how the hose was rebuilt.This was done 
 by the previous ownber.
 The leak is at the bottom, where the crimp fitting is. I saw drops of 
 fluid coming out, and it was confirmed with UV light. The labor for 
 this thing is 3 hours, plus the cost of the evacuation, and filling up 
 with 3 lbs of refrigerant.
 David

 */Robert  Tara Ludwick /* wrote:

 I think you should sell the thing to me for $50 :-)
 Seriously though, how long ago was the hose fixed before? Where
 exactly
 is it leaking now? the middle of the hose, at the crimp fittings?
 When
 
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?



Robert  Tara Ludwick wrote:
 
 If cash is an issue and occasional recharges aren't  the way you want to
 go, , you might just want to get the  system sucked down, then replace
 the parts yourself, get the hose some new rubber, pop the 134 fittings
 on, get it sucked down or rent a vacuum pump for about $18 and recharge
 it yourself with r134a.


I don't think he'd be happy with R134 or hydrocarbons in Arizona. 
I'd recommend sticking with R12 and fixing the hose.

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Jim Cathey

 considering you are replacing a hose unit
 that terminates under the dash on one end,

I didn't think that this hose actually went that far.  If we
are talking about the manifold hose that bolts to the back of
the compressor itself.  There are joints along the way.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Thanks, Jim.
  Good write-up and kind of humorous, too, 

Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I've never worked on AC before so I'm kind of chicken about it.

No time like the present. It's amazing what a no-fear attitude
and some thought can lead you through.

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/cwair.html

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

2007-09-06 Thread Jim Cathey

 I've never worked on AC before so I'm kind of chicken about it.

No time like the present.  It's amazing what a no-fear attitude
and some thought can lead you through.

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/cwair.html

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?

Jim,
  You're right.  
  David

Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   considering you are replacing a hose unit
 that terminates under the dash on one end,

I didn't think that this hose actually went that far.
   
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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-06 Thread Tom Hargrave

Manufacturing new R12 has been banned in this country but there is still
old stock around, plus re-cyclers are re-processing stock. It is legal
to sell what is still in the system.

Tom
www.kegkits.com
 
Original Message
From: Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09/06/07 10:48 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This is another good example of why the US should not be in charge of 
the world, just about every civilized nation has banned R12 due to it 
doing nasty things to the ozone but h no not you and why should you?

After all you have the bomb and it is your right to use ozone depleting 
substances.
We haven't had R12 for many years now and yes the newer gases are crap, 
especially in a 123 system that uses a prehistoric compressor.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

  
 The price you got ($800 ) is fair considering you are replacing a hose
unit  
 that terminates under the dash on one end, and you are retaining R12,
I  hope. 
   The AC system on an early Mercedes is marginal for really hot  days
(we 
 just recorded 32 days over 110 degrees) so don' t let them sub  any
other 
 refrigerant.


   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-06 Thread Hendrik

Well obviously according to those scientists, there is in fact no ozone 
layer and all the pollution we are producing is actually good for the 
environment.
And if those scientists are wrong, what are you gonna do? After all they 
have cashed their cheques and are now living somewhere in the Bahamas 
(hopefully on a low lying island).
Furthermore I would like to be present when you sit your grandkids on 
your knee and explain the reason why they have to wear a full body sun 
protection suit, when they go outside is that grandpa didn't want to be 
uncomfortable when he drove his car.

Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
 propaganda.  In fact, there is no real proof that r12 does damage to the 
 ozone.

   

   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell? killer R12

2007-09-06 Thread Hendrik

Well yes there are still cars in Oz with R12 in the system but it is now 
unobtanium and releasing it into the atmosphere is against the law.

Tom Hargrave wrote:
 Manufacturing new R12 has been banned in this country but there is still
 old stock around, plus re-cyclers are re-processing stock. It is legal
 to sell what is still in the system.

 Tom
   

   

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Re: [MBZ] Fix or Sell?