Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Yes it is. Maybe someone needs to couple a turbocharger with the driveline, as mentioned in your other post? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 8:14 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? It's called a turbocharger. Been around what, 70 years now? Peter On May 19, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Tom Hargrave wrote: It's possible but with today's technology, you'd have to tow along a heat exchanging system the size of a small buss. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mercedes- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 5:44 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? Lee Einer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. So why can't we extract that energy from the cooling system, instead of just blowing it into the air via the radiator and exhaust, and use it to propel the vehicle in some way. Must be more difficult than it sounds... http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/ 2007/02/15_heatelectricity.shtml Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1456 - Release Date: 5/20/2008 6:45 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Michael wrote hard for me to imagine that seemingly rational adults would get taken in by this scam. HHO, 2 molecules of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen, is H2O - WATER! Well Geez Michael, that's your problem, a basic flaw in your assumptions - what ever made you think any of us were rational? much less adults! ;-) Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Michael Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? It's hard for me to imagine that seemingly rational adults would get taken in by this scam. HHO, 2 molecules of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen, is H2O - WATER! There is no such thing as Brown's Gas. Their device is nothing more than a water injection system. Many people in the automotive aftermarket, most notably George Spears at the old Spearco, have made a living selling water injection systems. They [SNIP] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
A good place to start the inquiry is by asking how much of the gasoline which goes into the cylinders in your car exits unburnt. This arguably represents the maximum gain you can make by simply improving combustion. It is a very small number in modern, fuel injected cars. If you discount catalysis in the exhaust system, perhaps. But if that combustion were to occur next to a piston where it could do some good... I'm skeptical, to be sure, but we don't know everything yet! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Lee Einer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. So why can't we extract that energy from the cooling system, instead of just blowing it into the air via the radiator and exhaust, and use it to propel the vehicle in some way. Must be more difficult than it sounds... http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/02/15_heatelectricity.shtml Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
It's possible but with today's technology, you'd have to tow along a heat exchanging system the size of a small buss. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 5:44 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? Lee Einer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. So why can't we extract that energy from the cooling system, instead of just blowing it into the air via the radiator and exhaust, and use it to propel the vehicle in some way. Must be more difficult than it sounds... http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/02/15_heatelectricity.shtml Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power and the Seebeck effect?
Well that is what they are working on, as stated the concept has been around for decades but the problem has been the cost of materials to build it. Plus what do you think would happen if the manufactures put more rare metals into a car? Anyway it is an fascinating technology but I guess the evil oil lords will swoop and make it disappear. Hendrik Allan Streib wrote: Lee Einer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. So why can't we extract that energy from the cooling system, instead of just blowing it into the air via the radiator and exhaust, and use it to propel the vehicle in some way. Must be more difficult than it sounds... http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/02/15_heatelectricity.shtml Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
It's hard for me to imagine that seemingly rational adults would get taken in by this scam. HHO, 2 molecules of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen, is H2O - WATER! There is no such thing as Brown's Gas. Their device is nothing more than a water injection system. Many people in the automotive aftermarket, most notably George Spears at the old Spearco, have made a living selling water injection systems. They work; but it is very difficult to avoid engine damage. Looking at the system on the website of these 2 guys, my opinion is that many people are going to find engine rebuilds in their near future. After 38 years developing, manufacturing, and marketing performance products accessories (I was also the first US commercial importer of AMG products) I can say unequivocally that this device is a hoax; and, that there has never been a 65 MPG carburetor. Yes I got to play with the Fish carburetor when I was working with induction systems in the seventies - just another metered leak. Having been intimately involved in the search for efficiency and alternative fuels, I can also say that I have never seen any viable technology crushed or otherwise hidden from public view by those evil corporations. Quite the contrary, I see them spending billions of dollars in the quest for efficiency and alternative fuels only to be denigrated by hucksters and socialists. I like Coast to Coast AM; it's a hoot. But, you must be very careful about what you believe. Makes me wonder how much George Noory was paid by these con men for the 3-hour infomercial. A. Michael Baker At 06:06 AM 5/18/2008, you wrote: I've been looking at that and thinking about it for a while. I can't see it either. On the other hand I can see that it might be possible that a small amount of Brown's gas (hydrogen and the oxygen that it was split from) burned in conjunction with gasoline or diesel may possibly improve the combustion process enough to actually give more power and thus more mileage from each gallon of fuel. I have seen the power increase from propane injection on a diesel truck so I can't say that this won't work. Probably will try it sometime once I get some time to play just to see. After all I have a good test bed. Manfred Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:55:02 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] They are burning hydrogen in the engine. They are using power from the battery to split water into hydrogen oxygen. But where does the power come from that's stored in the battery? From the alternator, right? And the alternator is powered by (drum roll please), the engine? So, it goes like this.. They are using power from the engine to generate electricity, which is used to generate hydrogen, which is then fed back into the engine to generate more power. The issue with this system is that in an absolute perfect, no loss system, the results would be a net zero! In other words, no gain! In the real world, you loose energy with every step in the process Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Michael Baker Marketing Consulting Communications P. O. Box 1615 Running Springs, CA 92382-1615 909-867-5960 www.idm-marketing.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
It's called a turbocharger. Been around what, 70 years now? Peter On May 19, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Tom Hargrave wrote: It's possible but with today's technology, you'd have to tow along a heat exchanging system the size of a small buss. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mercedes- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 5:44 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? Lee Einer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. So why can't we extract that energy from the cooling system, instead of just blowing it into the air via the radiator and exhaust, and use it to propel the vehicle in some way. Must be more difficult than it sounds... http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/ 2007/02/15_heatelectricity.shtml Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1454 - Release Date: 5/19/2008 7:44 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Oh, and on aircraft, they used turbocompounding, where the turbo drove the crankshaft as well (actually, the production engines from Wright used a suprecharger, but Napier did make the Nomad that did both -- long story, never installed in production aircraft). Wright got any extra 1500 hp out of the Twin Cyclone with three exhaust turbines driving the crank via hydraulic couplings. I don't know if the used extra fuel, as it was typical to run rather rich anyway at full power, but there was reportedly a 6 ft long blue flame coming out the exhaust at the rear center of the engine at night, quite a shock to passengers are first. Not applicable to automotive use, though -- a street car is vastly more efficient. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Must be more difficult than it sounds... It is. Thermodynamics. Nasty stuff. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas?
hendrik wrote but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation Perhaps you could hire the people who gather (to put a kind spin on it) Moth Balls. I've always admired those people who could catch what must be incredibly large moths and then wrestle them to the ground and get them flipped over before they . well, better not go into the gory details. It's enough to say the moth and ball collector are never quite the same. Luckily for the moth, they grow back - usually to be harvested once again. It must be terribly traumatic for all involved. I would guess snake milking is equally difficult. I've been told (*who* tells me all these things?) the vipers and other highly poisonous snakes provide the highest quality milk. Of course there are often accidents where the snake bites the milker sending them (the milker) to the hospital for anti-venom. Naturally this causes the milkers to be hesitant to milk the poisoness snakes - turnover in this industry is unusually high. Perhaps they could be lured to become Moth Ball Collectors while recovering from a severe bite? They are probably pretty vulnerable when their arms/legs/whatever are still swollen 3 x's the normal size and the pain is second only to childbirth and kidney stones. Have a nice day -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Hendrik Fay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? No not possible in such a way that it would improve your mileage. Browns gas has been around for a long while but has never been gotten to work as advertised. There are heaps of websites that promise much the same thing. Anyway perhaps I could interest you Diesel people with some high zetane snake oil, guaranteed to get you 1000mpg. Hendrik with a large scale snake oil refinery in the back yard but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation LarryT wrote: http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
I've been looking at that and thinking about it for a while. I can't see it either. On the other hand I can see that it might be possible that a small amount of Brown's gas (hydrogen and the oxygen that it was split from) burned in conjunction with gasoline or diesel may possibly improve the combustion process enough to actually give more power and thus more mileage from each gallon of fuel. I have seen the power increase from propane injection on a diesel truck so I can't say that this won't work. Probably will try it sometime once I get some time to play just to see. After all I have a good test bed. Manfred Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:55:02 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] They are burning hydrogen in the engine. They are using power from the battery to split water into hydrogen oxygen. But where does the power come from that's stored in the battery? From the alternator, right? And the alternator is powered by (drum roll please), the engine? So, it goes like this.. They are using power from the engine to generate electricity, which is used to generate hydrogen, which is then fed back into the engine to generate more power. The issue with this system is that in an absolute perfect, no loss system, the results would be a net zero! In other words, no gain! In the real world, you loose energy with every step in the process Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
A small amount of hydrogen oxygen (brown's gas) will improve the combustion process and will provide more power. Then you'll use that additional power plus extra to make more Brown's gas. Propane injection also works but its false economics. You burn less gas more propane. All of these solutions were tried in the 70's they finally disappeared when the public figured out that they were BS. The real issue is that whenever there is money to be made, there are more than just a few crooks out there waiting to take your hard earned dollars. That said, there is a way to use water to improve mileage, but not by much. We experimented with water injection in the late 70s. The idea was to spray a small stream of water through the carb when it was running. The water would mix with the air would convert to steam in the engine, providing a little extra push. The idea worked - I documented a 1 MPG improvement in my 1974 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Problem was, 1 MPG was not worth the trouble of maintaining the system. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MG Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? I've been looking at that and thinking about it for a while. I can't see it either. On the other hand I can see that it might be possible that a small amount of Brown's gas (hydrogen and the oxygen that it was split from) burned in conjunction with gasoline or diesel may possibly improve the combustion process enough to actually give more power and thus more mileage from each gallon of fuel. I have seen the power increase from propane injection on a diesel truck so I can't say that this won't work. Probably will try it sometime once I get some time to play just to see. After all I have a good test bed. Manfred Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:55:02 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] They are burning hydrogen in the engine. They are using power from the battery to split water into hydrogen oxygen. But where does the power come from that's stored in the battery? From the alternator, right? And the alternator is powered by (drum roll please), the engine? So, it goes like this.. They are using power from the engine to generate electricity, which is used to generate hydrogen, which is then fed back into the engine to generate more power. The issue with this system is that in an absolute perfect, no loss system, the results would be a net zero! In other words, no gain! In the real world, you loose energy with every step in the process Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Hydrogen is a fine fuel aside for the fact it's hard to store. But hydrogen is only an energy storage medium, not an energy source (free hydrogen is not just lying around somewhere). So you need some other energy source to produce hydrogen. Scott Ritchey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:38 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
A local mechanic here is selling a snake-oil contraption which makes browns gas as well as tinkering with the ignition timing and he claims it gets mileage improvements of over 100%. It is Dennis Lee's device, and it is BS. A good place to start the inquiry is by asking how much of the gasoline which goes into the cylinders in your car exits unburnt. This arguably represents the maximum gain you can make by simply improving combustion. It is a very small number in modern, fuel injected cars. Are internal combustion engines energy efficient? Not really. A lot of energy is released not in the form of kinetic energy but of heat which must be dissipated by the cooling system. But the 'browns gas devices do nothing to change that. Lee Tom Hargrave wrote: A small amount of hydrogen oxygen (brown's gas) will improve the combustion process and will provide more power. Then you'll use that additional power plus extra to make more Brown's gas. Propane injection also works but its false economics. You burn less gas more propane. All of these solutions were tried in the 70's they finally disappeared when the public figured out that they were BS. The real issue is that whenever there is money to be made, there are more than just a few crooks out there waiting to take your hard earned dollars. That said, there is a way to use water to improve mileage, but not by much. We experimented with water injection in the late 70s. The idea was to spray a small stream of water through the carb when it was running. The water would mix with the air would convert to steam in the engine, providing a little extra push. The idea worked - I documented a 1 MPG improvement in my 1974 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Problem was, 1 MPG was not worth the trouble of maintaining the system. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MG Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? I've been looking at that and thinking about it for a while. I can't see it either. On the other hand I can see that it might be possible that a small amount of Brown's gas (hydrogen and the oxygen that it was split from) burned in conjunction with gasoline or diesel may possibly improve the combustion process enough to actually give more power and thus more mileage from each gallon of fuel. I have seen the power increase from propane injection on a diesel truck so I can't say that this won't work. Probably will try it sometime once I get some time to play just to see. After all I have a good test bed. Manfred Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:55:02 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] They are burning hydrogen in the engine. They are using power from the battery to split water into hydrogen oxygen. But where does the power come from that's stored in the battery? From the alternator, right? And the alternator is powered by (drum roll please), the engine? So, it goes like this.. They are using power from the engine to generate electricity, which is used to generate hydrogen, which is then fed back into the engine to generate more power. The issue with this system is that in an absolute perfect, no loss system, the results would be a net zero! In other words, no gain! In the real world, you loose energy with every step in the process Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas?
And that reminds me of a joke of course: What do you have when you have a moth ball in one hand and a moth ball in the other hand? A REALLY big moth -probably ticked off, also. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:01 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? hendrik wrote but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation Perhaps you could hire the people who gather (to put a kind spin on it) Moth Balls. I've always admired those people who could catch what must be incredibly large moths and then wrestle them to the ground and get them flipped over before they . well, better not go into the gory details. It's enough to say the moth and ball collector are never quite the same. Luckily for the moth, they grow back - usually to be harvested once again. It must be terribly traumatic for all involved. I would guess snake milking is equally difficult. I've been told (*who* tells me all these things?) the vipers and other highly poisonous snakes provide the highest quality milk. Of course there are often accidents where the snake bites the milker sending them (the milker) to the hospital for anti-venom. Naturally this causes the milkers to be hesitant to milk the poisoness snakes - turnover in this industry is unusually high. Perhaps they could be lured to become Moth Ball Collectors while recovering from a severe bite? They are probably pretty vulnerable when their arms/legs/whatever are still swollen 3 x's the normal size and the pain is second only to childbirth and kidney stones. Have a nice day -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Hendrik Fay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? No not possible in such a way that it would improve your mileage. Browns gas has been around for a long while but has never been gotten to work as advertised. There are heaps of websites that promise much the same thing. Anyway perhaps I could interest you Diesel people with some high zetane snake oil, guaranteed to get you 1000mpg. Hendrik with a large scale snake oil refinery in the back yard but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation LarryT wrote: http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Well that's what I'm not sure about hence the experiment, when I get the time. As far as the propane, I'm not talking about with gas but with diesel in a turbo application. The amount of propane used is very minor but the diesel burn is a lot cleaner and there is an increase of power disproportionate to the amount of propane used. A friend did this on a Dodge pickup and documented an improvement of power on a chassis dyno. I can't remember how much it was but I do remember him telling me about the improvement in power and in mileage. Obviously not at the same time. I did the water thing also but never had any good results with it. The amount of water that was used is just to small to do much. Though in a big supercharged engine it can bring down combustion temps and provide a little longer run time at full power before the engine overheats. That was shown on the fighters in WW2. Once the limited amount of water ran out they were more or less out of the fight. Manfred Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:11:58 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 A small amount of hydrogen oxygen (brown's gas) will improve the combustion process and will provide more power. Then you'll use that additional power plus extra to make more Brown's gas. Propane injection also works but its false economics. You burn less gas more propane. All of these solutions were tried in the 70's they finally disappeared when the public figured out that they were BS. The real issue is that whenever there is money to be made, there are more than just a few crooks out there waiting to take your hard earned dollars. That said, there is a way to use water to improve mileage, but not by much. We experimented with water injection in the late 70s. The idea was to spray a small stream of water through the carb when it was running. The water would mix with the air would convert to steam in the engine, providing a little extra push. The idea worked - I documented a 1 MPG improvement in my 1974 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Problem was, 1 MPG was not worth the trouble of maintaining the system. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas?
Being a former Test Engineer, I've always liked this one: Know what you get when you put 2 Test Engineers in a room? Why, a pair of testees of course! Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill R Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:18 AM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? And that reminds me of a joke of course: What do you have when you have a moth ball in one hand and a moth ball in the other hand? A REALLY big moth -probably ticked off, also. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:01 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? hendrik wrote but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation Perhaps you could hire the people who gather (to put a kind spin on it) Moth Balls. I've always admired those people who could catch what must be incredibly large moths and then wrestle them to the ground and get them flipped over before they . well, better not go into the gory details. It's enough to say the moth and ball collector are never quite the same. Luckily for the moth, they grow back - usually to be harvested once again. It must be terribly traumatic for all involved. I would guess snake milking is equally difficult. I've been told (*who* tells me all these things?) the vipers and other highly poisonous snakes provide the highest quality milk. Of course there are often accidents where the snake bites the milker sending them (the milker) to the hospital for anti-venom. Naturally this causes the milkers to be hesitant to milk the poisoness snakes - turnover in this industry is unusually high. Perhaps they could be lured to become Moth Ball Collectors while recovering from a severe bite? They are probably pretty vulnerable when their arms/legs/whatever are still swollen 3 x's the normal size and the pain is second only to childbirth and kidney stones. Have a nice day -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Hendrik Fay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas? No not possible in such a way that it would improve your mileage. Browns gas has been around for a long while but has never been gotten to work as advertised. There are heaps of websites that promise much the same thing. Anyway perhaps I could interest you Diesel people with some high zetane snake oil, guaranteed to get you 1000mpg. Hendrik with a large scale snake oil refinery in the back yard but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation LarryT wrote: http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
They are burning hydrogen in the engine. They are using power from the battery to split water into hydrogen oxygen. But where does the power come from that's stored in the battery? From the alternator, right? And the alternator is powered by (drum roll please), the engine? So, it goes like this.. They are using power from the engine to generate electricity, which is used to generate hydrogen, which is then fed back into the engine to generate more power. The issue with this system is that in an absolute perfect, no loss system, the results would be a net zero! In other words, no gain! In the real world, you loose energy with every step in the process Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:38 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Hydrogen is just a gaseous battery, for transferring energy from one place to another. There are only two sources -- from methane, with the CO2 dumped when the hydrogen is extracted, or from electrical power. If this is solar power, in particular photo-voltaic, well that's not so bad, but if it's from coal fired power plants, you would be much better off riding a coal fired steam train -- more movement for the CO2 produced. Hydrogen is no more the answer to replace gasoline than electric cars are -- it's gotta come from somewhere, and both hydrogen and electricity have to be generated from burning something else or nuclear, which is another whole can of worms. I suspect the CO2 footprint from nuclear is at least as large as coal fired plants -- after all, the fuel is made using coal fired TVA plants. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
I think you would do better by digging up the plans for the 100 mpg carburetor that GM (or was it Ford or Shell?) bought from the inventor in the 50s and hid it away. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
No such animal as this carburetor, check it out on snopes. Dave H... -- From: Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? I think you would do better by digging up the plans for the 100 mpg carburetor that GM (or was it Ford or Shell?) bought from the inventor in the 50s and hid it away. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power?
Yeah, right. See how far the conspiracy goes? It has penetrated all levels of government and the tubernets. Some of us know the truth though, I knew a guy whose uncle worked with a cousin of the brother-in-law of the inventor, he got the straight poop on it. --R Dave H... wrote: No such animal as this carburetor, check it out on snopes. Dave H... -- From: Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power? I think you would do better by digging up the plans for the 100 mpg carburetor that GM (or was it Ford or Shell?) bought from the inventor in the 50s and hid it away. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Hydrogen Power/Browns gas?
No not possible in such a way that it would improve your mileage. Browns gas has been around for a long while but has never been gotten to work as advertised. There are heaps of websites that promise much the same thing. Anyway perhaps I could interest you Diesel people with some high zetane snake oil, guaranteed to get you 1000mpg. Hendrik with a large scale snake oil refinery in the back yard but catching the snakes and milking them is a tricky operation LarryT wrote: http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ I immediately became suspicious when J Carter endorsed it -- But some of you are super knowledgable about chemistry - tell me if this is possible -- Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
