Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I remember that challenge and have used it on others, with attribution.

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 4:41 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:   On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:30:21 + (UTC) Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Craig, this reminds me of how Marshall Booth would challenge anyone to
> demonstrate evidence from a repeatable experiment, when they claimed to
> know how to improve on what the MB engineers had wrought. Example:
> installing a K air filter on a 240D. Marshall's response: time
> several 0 to 60 runs with the factory air filter, remove it and retest
> the 0 to 60 run, and report back on how much faster the car performed
> without the factory air filter. I don't recall that anyone was able to
> improve performance.

I don't recall that challenge, but it makes sense.

Remember to go to http://www.richardfeynman.com/ , download and then view
the video "Feynman on Scientific Method.mp4"

Let me know what you think about that.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:30:21 + (UTC) Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Craig, this reminds me of how Marshall Booth would challenge anyone to
> demonstrate evidence from a repeatable experiment, when they claimed to
> know how to improve on what the MB engineers had wrought. Example:
> installing a K air filter on a 240D. Marshall's response: time
> several 0 to 60 runs with the factory air filter, remove it and retest
> the 0 to 60 run, and report back on how much faster the car performed
> without the factory air filter. I don't recall that anyone was able to
> improve performance.

I don't recall that challenge, but it makes sense.

Remember to go to http://www.richardfeynman.com/ , download and then view
the video "Feynman on Scientific Method.mp4"

Let me know what you think about that.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Craig, this reminds me of how Marshall Booth would challenge anyone to 
demonstrate evidence from a repeatable experiment, when they claimed to know 
how to improve on what the MB engineers had wrought. Example: installing a K 
air filter on a 240D. Marshall's response: time several 0 to 60 runs with the 
factory air filter, remove it and retest the 0 to 60 run, and report back on 
how much faster the car performed without the factory air filter. I don't 
recall that anyone was able to improve performance.


Max Dillon
Charleston SC

Dec 28, 2019 3:06:56 PM Craig via Mercedes :

> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel
> > > > > via Mercedes wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda. Provide a peer
> > > > > reviewed article to that effect please.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 
> I don't know if there is a peer-reviewed article which addresses the
> point at which solar electric installations require more CO2 generation
> than they elimate, but there are many peer-reviewd articles which say
> CO2 is not a problem:
> 
> 1) Thru 2014
> http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html
> = 1350±
> 2) 2015 https://notrickszone.com/250-skeptic-papers-from-2015/ = 280±
> 3) 2016 https://notrickszone.com/skeptic-papers-2016/ = 500±
> 4) 2017
>  > = 485±
> 5) 2018
>  > = 500±
> 6) 2019
> https://notrickszone.com/2019/06/17/consensus-200-new-2019-papers-support-a-skeptical-position-on-climate-alarmism/
> (thru June) = 200±
> 
> TOTAL of AGW skeptical peer-reviewed papers ~ 3300!
> 
> As the fellow who set up my other email list said (with a few edits to
> remove the name of the one person to whom it was directed),
> 
> The sad thing about such compilations is that quantity makes no
> difference whatsoever. When Albert Einstein's critics published
> a book titled "One Hundred Against Einstein," he famously replied
> "Why one hundred? One man can prove me wrong!"
> 
> Just as "Peer-Review" provides no more than an evaluation by two
> or three colleagues that a paper may be worthy of publication, so
> a collection of papers provides a compendium of guesses that more
> likely than not support a prevailing paradigm.
> 
> On the other hand, a paper that breaks new ground may not find any
> supporters, even if it is brilliant work. Such was the case with
> one of my professors at the University of Chicago who submitted a
> paper to the Astrophysical Journal in the 1950s, hypothesizing a
> "solar wind". All referees rejected it. (We called them "referees"
> in those days, because their job was merely to advise the editor of
> the journal and not to certify correctness, as those who insist on
> peer review believe.) Fortunately the editor, Subrahmanyan
> Chandrasekhar, recognized the value of Eugene Parker's work and
> published his paper. By the mindset of those who insist on peer
> review, the paper was rubbish, because it had no support among
> Parker's peers.
> 
> That paper was, however, one of the triumphs of solar system physics,
> spelling out the existence and characteristics of the now well known
> supersonic plasma called the solar wind. But how do we know that
> Professor Parker was correct? Did we count the number of subsequent
> "peer-reviewed" papers that agreed with Parker and compare those with
> the number that disagreed? Heavens no! We built space probes to get
> beyond the Earth's magnetosphere and look for the solar wind and the
> spiral solar magnetic field carried by it. The probes found a solar
> wind that was precisely what Parker had predicted.
> 
> That should tell those who insist on peer review as the criterion for
> validity that logic and evidence form the basis of real science, not
> consensus thinking, disguised as "Peer-Review".
> 
> Parker went on to become a distinguished professor at the University
> of Chicago, as did Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar. At age 92, Parker is
> still alive and recently witnessed the NASA launch of the "Parker
> Probe" to study the origins of the solar wind near the surface of the
> Sun. Chandra won a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1983 but is now long
> gone. Both men had offices a few doors from mine at the Laboratory
> for Astrophysics and Space Research.
> 
> The days of such hugely competent science are obviously long gone.
> Science has become a political and economic exercise that chases
> massive government largesse, attacks any who criticize, and cares
> very little to nothing about the truth.
> 
> 
> Also,
> 
> Dear John,
> 
> Yes, it is often worthwhile to try to show those who are headed
> down the wrong path where it will lead them. But those who are
> members of the Climate Cult 

Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Craig via Mercedes]

> > > > On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel
> > > > via Mercedes wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda. Provide a peer
> > > > reviewed article to that effect please.

I don't know if there is a peer-reviewed article which addresses the
point at which solar electric installations require more CO2 generation
than they elimate, but there are many peer-reviewd articles which say
CO2 is not a problem:

1) Thru 2014
http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html
 = 1350±
2) 2015 https://notrickszone.com/250-skeptic-papers-from-2015/   = 280±
3) 2016 https://notrickszone.com/skeptic-papers-2016/= 500±
4) 2017
 = 485±
5) 2018
 = 500±
6) 2019
https://notrickszone.com/2019/06/17/consensus-200-new-2019-papers-support-a-skeptical-position-on-climate-alarmism/
 (thru June) = 200±

  TOTAL of AGW skeptical peer-reviewed papers ~ 3300!

As the fellow who set up my other email list said (with a few edits to
remove the name of the one person to whom it was directed),

The sad thing about such compilations is that quantity makes no
difference whatsoever.  When Albert Einstein's critics published
a book titled "One Hundred Against Einstein," he famously replied
"Why one hundred?  One man can prove me wrong!"

Just as "Peer-Review" provides no more than an evaluation by two
or three colleagues that a paper may be worthy of publication, so
a collection of papers provides a compendium of guesses that more
likely than not support a prevailing paradigm.

On the other hand, a paper that breaks new ground may not find any
supporters, even if it is brilliant work.  Such was the case with
one of my professors at the University of Chicago who submitted a
paper to the Astrophysical Journal in the 1950s, hypothesizing a
"solar wind".  All referees rejected it.  (We called them "referees"
in those days, because their job was merely to advise the editor of
the journal and not to certify correctness, as those who insist on
peer review believe.) Fortunately the editor, Subrahmanyan
Chandrasekhar, recognized the value of Eugene Parker's work and
published his paper.  By the mindset of those who insist on peer
review, the paper was rubbish, because it had no support among
Parker's peers.

That paper was, however, one of the triumphs of solar system physics,
spelling out the existence and characteristics of the now well known
supersonic plasma called the solar wind.  But how do we know that
Professor Parker was correct?  Did we count the number of subsequent
"peer-reviewed" papers that agreed with Parker and compare those with
the number that disagreed?  Heavens no!  We built space probes to get
beyond the Earth's magnetosphere and look for the solar wind and the
spiral solar magnetic field carried by it.  The probes found a solar
wind that was precisely what Parker had predicted.

That should tell those who insist on peer review as the criterion for
validity that logic and evidence form the basis of real science, not
consensus thinking, disguised as "Peer-Review".

Parker went on to become a distinguished professor at the University
of Chicago, as did Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar.  At age 92, Parker is
still alive and recently witnessed the NASA launch of the "Parker
Probe" to study the origins of the solar wind near the surface of the
Sun. Chandra won a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1983 but is now long
gone. Both men had offices a few doors from mine at the Laboratory
for Astrophysics and Space Research.

The days of such hugely competent science are obviously long gone.
Science has become a political and economic exercise that chases
massive government largesse, attacks any who criticize, and cares
very little to nothing about the truth.


Also,

Dear John,

Yes, it is often worthwhile to try to show those who are headed
down the wrong path where it will lead them.  But those who are
members of the Climate Cult are part of a larger political/religious
movement that considers ALL arguments as one way streets.  They
never allow them to be reversed against them.

They are involved in a logic that sounds strange to us, because it
starts with the premise that they are correct and refers all
counter-arguments to point number one: they are 

Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Maybe I can go see him speak, NC 'taint far!

Max Dillon
Charleston SC

Dec 28, 2019 9:56:35 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes :

> Goreham has authored two books on climate change,* but has not published in
> the peer-reviewed science press.* He makes his money not just from book
> sales, but by giving talks on climate change at conferences across the
> country largely for various trade groups
> , from electricity to oil and gas to
> plastics. Goreham is scheduled to speak this month
>  at conferences for the North Carolina
> Propane Gas Association and the Nebraska Trucking Association.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 8:38 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Here you go Andrew, watch the whole thing, it is in there somewhere.
> > 
> > https://youtu.be/mtHreJbr2WM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel via
> > > 
> > Mercedes wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda. Provide a peer reviewed
> > > article to that effect please.
> > > 
> > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:01 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th
> > > > parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during
> > > > 
> > > 
> > production
> > 
> > > 
> > > > and installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or
> > > > 
> > > 
> > one of
> > 
> > > 
> > > > the other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to
> > > > 
> > > 
> > replace
> > 
> > > 
> > > > electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the
> > > > 
> > > 
> > amount of
> > 
> > > 
> > > > CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed
> > > > 
> > > 
> > north
> > 
> > > 
> > > > of 35 degrees.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Max Dillon
> > > > Charleston SC
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Goreham has authored two books on climate change,* but has not published in
the peer-reviewed science press.* He makes his money not just from book
sales, but by giving talks on climate change at conferences across the
country largely for various trade groups
, from electricity to oil and gas to
plastics. Goreham is scheduled to speak this month
 at conferences for the North Carolina
Propane Gas Association and the Nebraska Trucking Association.


On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 8:38 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> Here you go Andrew, watch the whole thing, it is in there somewhere.
>
> https://youtu.be/mtHreJbr2WM
>
>
>
> > On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel via
> Mercedes wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda. Provide a peer reviewed
> > article to that effect please.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:01 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th
> > > parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during
> production
> > > and installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or
> one of
> > > the other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to
> replace
> > > electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the
> amount of
> > > CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed
> north
> > > of 35 degrees.
> > >
> > >
> > > Max Dillon
> > > Charleston SC
> > >
> >
>
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[clay via Mercedes]

The boomers at Bangor sub base just dump the electrons into a bit energy hole.  
Seems a waste, but so it goes.  I wonder how the carriers work it when they are 
in port

clay



> On Dec 27, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2019 16:07:52 -0500 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
>> What's a sub or ship reactor put out?  A few megawatts?   Ah, here the 
>> wikis tell us:
>> 
>> While land-based *reactors* in *nuclear power plants* produce up to 
>> around 1600 megawatts of electrical power, a typical marine propulsion 
>> *reactor* produces no more than a few hundred megawatts. Space 
>> considerations dictate that a marine *reactor* must be physically
>> small, so it must generate higher power per unit of space.
> 
> There was a discussion of the floating Russian reactor ship on my other
> email list:
> 
> The US Navy already has nuclear powered ships that can produce
> many times the electrical power that the new Russian ship does.
> 
> Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carriers use the new A1B reactors
> from Bechtel which reportedly produce enough steam to generate
> 125 megawatts (168,000 hp) of electricity, plus 350,000 shaft
> horsepower (260 MW) to power the four propeller shafts.  Each
> aircraft carrier has two of these, and they will run for twenty
> years before needing to be refueled.
> 
> 
>> A few hundred MW might be too much for the AK outback, but I'm sure
>> they could be derated to something more reasonable for the loads.  Plus
>> you get steam and hot water from cooling which might be nice to heat 
>> buildings with.  A nuke package cogen plant?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[clay via Mercedes]

Yeah, 

not quite in Anchorage.  Place is surrounded by large mounds of ice covered 
earth.  These things block the shine of the lights coming and going until the 
sun rises high enough in the sky.  Twilight remains, as  the sun comes up 
behind the mountains and peeks out past much past 1030 and is sucked back down 
on the other side of Cook  Inlet.  Blue dark hangs around a long time on both 
ends as the sun clears horizon, and black dark sets in right quick.  Spooky as 
heck.  Like living in a deep pit with steep walls around it.

clay


> On Dec 27, 2019, at 6:09 PM, fmiser via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> Clay wrote:
> 
>> Seattle is getting around 8 hours
>> 
>> Anchorage the sun went up after 1014 and will be down and dark
>> 1530.   Most of that time is twilight.  yeah, the YA vampire
>> thing.  It does get better, as the light will get above
>> nightlite bright at almost 15 minutes a day.
> 
> Twilight is when the sky is not dark, but the sun is not above the
> horizon.   10:14 to 15:30 does not include twilight.
> 
> Civil twilight adds 2 hours to the 5:30 of daylight in Anchorage.
> 
> Nautical twilight adds another 2 hours.
> 
> So 5.5 hours of direct sun (if the horizons are visible) and 9.5
> hours of it being bright enough to see what you are about to bump
> into when walking.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2019 16:07:52 -0500 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
 wrote:

> What's a sub or ship reactor put out?  A few megawatts?   Ah, here the 
> wikis tell us:
>
> While land-based *reactors* in *nuclear power plants* produce up to 
> around 1600 megawatts of electrical power, a typical marine propulsion 
> *reactor* produces no more than a few hundred megawatts. Space 
> considerations dictate that a marine *reactor* must be physically
> small, so it must generate higher power per unit of space.

There was a discussion of the floating Russian reactor ship on my other
email list:

 The US Navy already has nuclear powered ships that can produce
 many times the electrical power that the new Russian ship does.

 Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carriers use the new A1B reactors
 from Bechtel which reportedly produce enough steam to generate
 125 megawatts (168,000 hp) of electricity, plus 350,000 shaft
 horsepower (260 MW) to power the four propeller shafts.  Each
 aircraft carrier has two of these, and they will run for twenty
 years before needing to be refueled.


> A few hundred MW might be too much for the AK outback, but I'm sure
> they could be derated to something more reasonable for the loads.  Plus
> you get steam and hot water from cooling which might be nice to heat 
> buildings with.  A nuke package cogen plant?

Yes.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Mitch wrote:

> +14F is pretty much the safe minimum for a Leaf battery. 

14F = -10C.  So -17C is quite a bit colder.  About 1F.

> How many hours of daylight are you getting in AK this week?

Today I saw sunrise 8:08, set 5:13, duration 9:05.

Official daylight - with the sun above the horizon?  Or the sky
isn't dark?  Sunrise and sunset get really long as you get closer
to the poles.  For PV electric generation, true sunrise and sunset
may be valid.  But for "it's dark outside", civil or nautical
twilight is probably more viable.

In Lansing, the length of daylight is just over an hour more when
including civil twilight and a bit over 2 hours if it includes
nautical twilight.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Clay wrote:

> Seattle is getting around 8 hours
> 
> Anchorage the sun went up after 1014 and will be down and dark
> 1530.   Most of that time is twilight.  yeah, the YA vampire
> thing.  It does get better, as the light will get above
> nightlite bright at almost 15 minutes a day.

Twilight is when the sky is not dark, but the sun is not above the
horizon.   10:14 to 15:30 does not include twilight.

Civil twilight adds 2 hours to the 5:30 of daylight in Anchorage.

Nautical twilight adds another 2 hours.

So 5.5 hours of direct sun (if the horizons are visible) and 9.5
hours of it being bright enough to see what you are about to bump
into when walking.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Here you go Andrew, watch the whole thing, it is in there somewhere.

https://youtu.be/mtHreJbr2WM



> On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda. Provide a peer reviewed
> article to that effect please.
>
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:01 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th
> > parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during production
> > and installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or one of
> > the other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to replace
> > electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the amount of
> > CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed north
> > of 35 degrees.
> >
> >
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> >
>

Max Dillon
Charleston SC


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Andy knows that has no influence on solar lektrick production.


Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
December 27, 2019 at 6:44 PM
Are you forgetting maybe that in the far north its dark half the 
time?Not just "poor solar" dark but "can't see because its perpetually 
nighttime" dark.


-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 The payback on solar hot water is way better than photovoltaic. Last I 
read photovoltaic was 25 years, solar hot water is like 5.My 5 year plan 
includes us replacing the boiler in the house and adding solar hot water.
-Curt

On Friday, December 27, 2019, 7:32:06 PM EST, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Almost every house on Oahu has passive solar water heating, or at least 
they did 1988-1993.   On the other islands, it was hit or miss.  Mostly 
not.  Those living offgrid (mostly NOT  on Oahu) had solar water heating 
and some form of generation.

> Clay Monroe via Mercedes 
> December 27, 2019 at 4:31 PM
> There is much discussion of how to power the tiny villages and such up 
> there. Very few places are close enough to make sense putting out much 
> power, as the cost to run wires is huge compared to how much demand 
> for wattage there is. I think Kodiak has almost enough demand 
> (powering three other population centers) to make 25 megawatt. That is 
> rather large. Nome has a demand around 8MW and powers a few villages 
> down about 10 miles of wire in a few directions.
>
> The Alaskan villagers really need to either step back from western 
> luxury, or invest heavily in CO2 producing generation. Trouble is, 
> fuel flies in or comes on a barge. Very expensive to live in the lap 
> of western tech goodness in such a desolate place. Much more 
> reasonable to be on a sheep station in the outback. At least you have 
> sun, it is warm, and all you need is to keep the beer cold.
>
>
> clay
>
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Heh, you're almost a full hour behind us. Interesting to be on the extreme 
edges of the same time zone. 

-Curt

On Friday, December 27, 2019, 6:00:34 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 +14F is pretty much the safe minimum for a Leaf battery. 
They have emergency heaters but no battery cooling, at least they didn't have 
battery cooling a few years ago. 

How many hours of daylight are you getting in AK this week?
Today I saw sunrise 8:08, set 5:13, duration 9:05.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Are you forgetting maybe that in the far north its dark half the time?Not just 
"poor solar" dark but "can't see because its perpetually nighttime" dark.

-Curt

On Friday, December 27, 2019, 4:07:15 PM EST, Andrew Strasfogel via 
Mercedes  wrote:  
 
 Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda.  Provide a peer reviewed
article to that effect please.

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:01 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th
> parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during production
> and installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or one of
> the other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to replace
> electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the amount of
> CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed north
> of 35 degrees.
>
>
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Almost every house on Oahu has passive solar water heating, or at least 
they did 1988-1993.   On the other islands, it was hit or miss.  Mostly 
not.  Those living offgrid (mostly NOT  on Oahu) had solar water heating 
and some form of generation.



Clay Monroe via Mercedes 
December 27, 2019 at 4:31 PM
There is much discussion of how to power the tiny villages and such up 
there. Very few places are close enough to make sense putting out much 
power, as the cost to run wires is huge compared to how much demand 
for wattage there is. I think Kodiak has almost enough demand 
(powering three other population centers) to make 25 megawatt. That is 
rather large. Nome has a demand around 8MW and powers a few villages 
down about 10 miles of wire in a few directions.


The Alaskan villagers really need to either step back from western 
luxury, or invest heavily in CO2 producing generation. Trouble is, 
fuel flies in or comes on a barge. Very expensive to live in the lap 
of western tech goodness in such a desolate place. Much more 
reasonable to be on a sheep station in the outback. At least you have 
sun, it is warm, and all you need is to keep the beer cold.



clay




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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

THey just need to buy a mothballed nuke sub from uncle.   Pull it up  to 
a pier  and run power lines ashore.



Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
December 27, 2019 at 3:07 PM
What's a sub or ship reactor put out?  A few megawatts?   Ah, here the 
wikis tell us:


While land-based *reactors* in *nuclear power plants* produce up to 
around 1600 megawatts of electrical power, a typical marine propulsion 
*reactor* produces no more than a few hundred megawatts. Space 
considerations dictate that a marine *reactor* must be physically 
small, so it must generate higher power per unit of space.


A few hundred MW might be too much for the AK outback, but I'm sure 
they could be derated to something more reasonable for the loads.  
Plus you get steam and hot water from cooling which might be nice to 
heat buildings with.  A nuke package cogen plant?


--FT




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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Seattle is getting around 8 hours

Anchorage the sun went up after 1014 and will be down and dark 1530.   Most of 
that time is twilight.  yeah, the YA vampire thing.  It does get better, as the 
light will get above nightlite bright at almost 15 minutes a day.


clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.



> On Dec 27, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> +14F is pretty much the safe minimum for a Leaf battery. 
> They have emergency heaters but no battery cooling, at least they didn't have 
> battery cooling a few years ago. 
> 
> How many hours of daylight are you getting in AK this week?
> Today I saw sunrise 8:08, set 5:13, duration 9:05.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

+14F is pretty much the safe minimum for a Leaf battery. 
They have emergency heaters but no battery cooling, at least they didn't have 
battery cooling a few years ago. 

How many hours of daylight are you getting in AK this week?
Today I saw sunrise 8:08, set 5:13, duration 9:05.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

There is much discussion of how to power the tiny villages and such up there.  
Very few places are close enough to make sense putting out much power, as the 
cost to run wires is huge compared to how much demand for wattage there is.  I 
think Kodiak has almost enough demand (powering three other population centers) 
to make 25 megawatt.  That is rather large.  Nome has a demand around 8MW and 
powers a few villages down about 10 miles of wire in a few directions.  

The Alaskan villagers really need to either step back from western luxury, or 
invest heavily in CO2 producing generation.  Trouble is, fuel flies in or comes 
on a barge.  Very expensive to live in the lap of western tech goodness in such 
a desolate place.  Much more reasonable to be on a sheep station in the 
outback.  At least you have sun, it is warm, and all you need is to keep the 
beer cold.


clay

> On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> What's a sub or ship reactor put out?  A few megawatts?   Ah, here the wikis 
> tell us:
> 
> While land-based *reactors* in *nuclear power plants* produce up to around 
> 1600 megawatts of electrical power, a typical marine propulsion *reactor* 
> produces no more than a few hundred megawatts. Space considerations dictate 
> that a marine *reactor* must be physically small, so it must generate higher 
> power per unit of space.
> 
> A few hundred MW might be too much for the AK outback, but I'm sure they 
> could be derated to something more reasonable for the loads.  Plus you get 
> steam and hot water from cooling which might be nice to heat buildings with.  
> A nuke package cogen plant?
> 
> --FT

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

It does seem silly to me to see the high end homes here plastered with solar 
panels (48th parallel) and plug in for the Tesla or Leaf parked in the 
driveway.  I did learn that Seattle gets the same amount of insolation as 
Alaska (as a whole).  Seattle gets light year round of the same effective 
wattage as Alaska, being light only half the time there.  First week of 
November past some idiot (AK) who just put panels on his roof was crowing about 
how he had generated 4kw that week.  He was all excited to rush down to Seattle 
to purchase a used Leaf for $10k (there is a reason the off lease car was 
cheap).  I kept my mouth shut about how I hoped he would be walking or riding 
his bike all winter, as the panels were not going to power his car.  Not in the 
-17c cold that Anchorage is having this week.

clay


> On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th 
> parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during production and 
> installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or one of the 
> other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to replace 
> electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the amount of 
> CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed north 
> of 35 degrees.
> 
> 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

What's a sub or ship reactor put out?  A few megawatts?   Ah, here the 
wikis tell us:


While land-based *reactors* in *nuclear power plants* produce up to 
around 1600 megawatts of electrical power, a typical marine propulsion 
*reactor* produces no more than a few hundred megawatts. Space 
considerations dictate that a marine *reactor* must be physically small, 
so it must generate higher power per unit of space.


A few hundred MW might be too much for the AK outback, but I'm sure they 
could be derated to something more reasonable for the loads.  Plus you 
get steam and hot water from cooling which might be nice to heat 
buildings with.  A nuke package cogen plant?


--FT

On 12/27/19 2:36 PM, Clay Monroe via Mercedes wrote:

The fools in Alaska are getting heavy into wind and solar.  Recent story about 
how one utility is making a giant investment in TESLA batteries to take over 
the short load bumps from their NG plant.  CO2 reduction and all.  Stupidity of 
an extreme degree, given that the state does not have a linked grid.  Almost 
all the power is produced in isolated cells, so when your plant goes down, you 
are SOL.  Even the patched together grid from Fairbanks to the Kenia peninsula 
is a mash up of six separate utilities with their own fiefdoms charging each 
other carrier fees.  Hard to get your “cheap” wind power anywhere when, by the 
time it gets where it is needed, the cost has quintupled with all the fees.

AK is a place that could benefit from micro nuke plants.  I think there was 
interest in Toshiba closet nukes

clay


On Dec 26, 2019, at 7:37 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes  
wrote:

Unfortunately, the US has a number of Nukes that will require retirement or 
refueling in the near term.  Without a program to build more we will depend on 
coal/fossil fuel plants to provide power.  Else, the US may have some dark days 
and cold nights

I was hopeful we might see Va start it's Nuke Power industry with Vepco looking 
at a new reactor in the Western part of the state.  Haven't heard anything 
lately.

LarryT

On 12/20/2019 2:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
Friday, December 20, 2019

Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
the century.

Operator BKW took the Mühleberg Nuclear Power Plant, located 25 miles west
of the capital Bern, off the grid shortly after midday in a ceremony
broadcast live by Switzerland's main public TV station.

BKW, which is majority owned by the canton of Bern, said it plans to begin
dismantling the plant in January, a process that will take until 2034.
Decommissioning and deposing of radioactive remains is estimated to cost 3
billion Swiss francs ($3.1 billion).

Mühleberg is the smallest of Switzerland's four remaining nuclear power
plants. It began operation in 1972.

After the 2011 Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan, Switzerland
decided to gradually phase out nuclear power.

Switzerland is home to the world's oldest still-operating nuclear power
plant, Beznau, which will be shut down toward the end of 2029.

The remaining two nuclear plants, Gösgen and Leibstadt, will be shuttered
around 2040 and 2045, respectively.

Switzerland plans to significantly increase the production of renewable
energy from solar and wind over the coming decades to meet its power needs.
As part of the European grid, Switzerland also buys electricity from
neighboring countries such as France, which has numerous nuclear power
plants.

Earlier this week, campaigners submitted enough signatures to force a
referendum on incorporating the goal of making Switzerland "climate
neutral" by 2050 in the country's constitution. Doing so would require
ending virtually all burning of fossil fuels by midcentury. *— Associated
Press*
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--
--FT

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Sounds like complete and utter BS/propaganda.  Provide a peer reviewed
article to that effect please.

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:01 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th
> parallel were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during production
> and installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or one of
> the other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to replace
> electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the amount of
> CO2 released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed north
> of 35 degrees.
>
>
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

I recently saw an analysis that solar installations north of the 35th parallel 
were a net CO2 loss, when all the CO2 emitted during production and 
installation were compared to the same power provided by coal or one of the 
other fossil fuels. In other words, installing solar panels to replace 
electricity currently generated by fossil fuels will INCREASE the amount of CO2 
released into the atmosphere, when the solar panels are installed north of 35 
degrees.


Max Dillon
Charleston SC


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

I recently saw an analysis that

Max Dillon
Charleston SC

Dec 27, 2019 2:37:33 PM Clay Monroe via Mercedes :

> The fools in Alaska are getting heavy into wind and solar. Recent story about 
> how one utility is making a giant investment in TESLA batteries to take over 
> the short load bumps from their NG plant. CO2 reduction and all. Stupidity of 
> an extreme degree, given that the state does not have a linked grid. Almost 
> all the power is produced in isolated cells, so when your plant goes down, 
> you are SOL. Even the patched together grid from Fairbanks to the Kenia 
> peninsula is a mash up of six separate utilities with their own fiefdoms 
> charging each other carrier fees. Hard to get your “cheap” wind power 
> anywhere when, by the time it gets where it is needed, the cost has 
> quintupled with all the fees.
> 
> AK is a place that could benefit from micro nuke plants. I think there was 
> interest in Toshiba closet nukes
> 
> clay
> 
> 
> > On Dec 26, 2019, at 7:37 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, the US has a number of Nukes that will require retirement or 
> > refueling in the near term. Without a program to build more we will depend 
> > on coal/fossil fuel plants to provide power. Else, the US may have some 
> > dark days and cold nights
> > 
> > I was hopeful we might see Va start it's Nuke Power industry with Vepco 
> > looking at a new reactor in the Western part of the state. Haven't heard 
> > anything lately.
> > 
> > LarryT
> > 
> > On 12/20/2019 2:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > 
> > > SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
> > > Friday, December 20, 2019
> > > 
> > > Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part 
> > > of
> > > a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle 
> > > of
> > > the century.
> > > 
> > > Operator BKW took the Mühleberg Nuclear Power Plant, located 25 miles west
> > > of the capital Bern, off the grid shortly after midday in a ceremony
> > > broadcast live by Switzerland's main public TV station.
> > > 
> > > BKW, which is majority owned by the canton of Bern, said it plans to begin
> > > dismantling the plant in January, a process that will take until 2034.
> > > Decommissioning and deposing of radioactive remains is estimated to cost 3
> > > billion Swiss francs ($3.1 billion).
> > > 
> > > Mühleberg is the smallest of Switzerland's four remaining nuclear power
> > > plants. It began operation in 1972.
> > > 
> > > After the 2011 Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan, 
> > > Switzerland
> > > decided to gradually phase out nuclear power.
> > > 
> > > Switzerland is home to the world's oldest still-operating nuclear power
> > > plant, Beznau, which will be shut down toward the end of 2029.
> > > 
> > > The remaining two nuclear plants, Gösgen and Leibstadt, will be shuttered
> > > around 2040 and 2045, respectively.
> > > 
> > > Switzerland plans to significantly increase the production of renewable
> > > energy from solar and wind over the coming decades to meet its power 
> > > needs.
> > > As part of the European grid, Switzerland also buys electricity from
> > > neighboring countries such as France, which has numerous nuclear power
> > > plants.
> > > 
> > > Earlier this week, campaigners submitted enough signatures to force a
> > > referendum on incorporating the goal of making Switzerland "climate
> > > neutral" by 2050 in the country's constitution. Doing so would require
> > > ending virtually all burning of fossil fuels by midcentury. *— Associated
> > > Press*
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> > > 
> > 
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> > 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

The fools in Alaska are getting heavy into wind and solar.  Recent story about 
how one utility is making a giant investment in TESLA batteries to take over 
the short load bumps from their NG plant.  CO2 reduction and all.  Stupidity of 
an extreme degree, given that the state does not have a linked grid.  Almost 
all the power is produced in isolated cells, so when your plant goes down, you 
are SOL.  Even the patched together grid from Fairbanks to the Kenia peninsula 
is a mash up of six separate utilities with their own fiefdoms charging each 
other carrier fees.  Hard to get your “cheap” wind power anywhere when, by the 
time it gets where it is needed, the cost has quintupled with all the fees.

AK is a place that could benefit from micro nuke plants.  I think there was 
interest in Toshiba closet nukes

clay

> On Dec 26, 2019, at 7:37 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, the US has a number of Nukes that will require retirement or 
> refueling in the near term.  Without a program to build more we will depend 
> on coal/fossil fuel plants to provide power.  Else, the US may have some dark 
> days and cold nights
> 
> I was hopeful we might see Va start it's Nuke Power industry with Vepco 
> looking at a new reactor in the Western part of the state.  Haven't heard 
> anything lately.
> 
> LarryT
> 
> On 12/20/2019 2:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>> SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
>> Friday, December 20, 2019
>> 
>> Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
>> a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
>> the century.
>> 
>> Operator BKW took the Mühleberg Nuclear Power Plant, located 25 miles west
>> of the capital Bern, off the grid shortly after midday in a ceremony
>> broadcast live by Switzerland's main public TV station.
>> 
>> BKW, which is majority owned by the canton of Bern, said it plans to begin
>> dismantling the plant in January, a process that will take until 2034.
>> Decommissioning and deposing of radioactive remains is estimated to cost 3
>> billion Swiss francs ($3.1 billion).
>> 
>> Mühleberg is the smallest of Switzerland's four remaining nuclear power
>> plants. It began operation in 1972.
>> 
>> After the 2011 Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan, Switzerland
>> decided to gradually phase out nuclear power.
>> 
>> Switzerland is home to the world's oldest still-operating nuclear power
>> plant, Beznau, which will be shut down toward the end of 2029.
>> 
>> The remaining two nuclear plants, Gösgen and Leibstadt, will be shuttered
>> around 2040 and 2045, respectively.
>> 
>> Switzerland plans to significantly increase the production of renewable
>> energy from solar and wind over the coming decades to meet its power needs.
>> As part of the European grid, Switzerland also buys electricity from
>> neighboring countries such as France, which has numerous nuclear power
>> plants.
>> 
>> Earlier this week, campaigners submitted enough signatures to force a
>> referendum on incorporating the goal of making Switzerland "climate
>> neutral" by 2050 in the country's constitution. Doing so would require
>> ending virtually all burning of fossil fuels by midcentury. *— Associated
>> Press*
>> ___
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>> 
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>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[G Mann via Mercedes]

What is the lead time for a nuke plant? Presuming plans have been approved,
and environmental studies are all done... From ground break to finish
certification?
10 years?  20? Best guess?


On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:38 PM Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, the US has a number of Nukes that will require retirement
> or refueling in the near term.  Without a program to build more we will
> depend on coal/fossil fuel plants to provide power.  Else, the US may
> have some dark days and cold nights
>
> I was hopeful we might see Va start it's Nuke Power industry with Vepco
> looking at a new reactor in the Western part of the state.  Haven't
> heard anything lately.
>
> LarryT
>
> On 12/20/2019 2:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live
> TVPublished:
> > Friday, December 20, 2019
> >
> > Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part
> of
> > a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle
> of
> > the century.
> >
> > Operator BKW took the Mühleberg Nuclear Power Plant, located 25 miles
> west
> > of the capital Bern, off the grid shortly after midday in a ceremony
> > broadcast live by Switzerland's main public TV station.
> >
> > BKW, which is majority owned by the canton of Bern, said it plans to
> begin
> > dismantling the plant in January, a process that will take until 2034.
> > Decommissioning and deposing of radioactive remains is estimated to cost
> 3
> > billion Swiss francs ($3.1 billion).
> >
> > Mühleberg is the smallest of Switzerland's four remaining nuclear power
> > plants. It began operation in 1972.
> >
> > After the 2011 Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan,
> Switzerland
> > decided to gradually phase out nuclear power.
> >
> > Switzerland is home to the world's oldest still-operating nuclear power
> > plant, Beznau, which will be shut down toward the end of 2029.
> >
> > The remaining two nuclear plants, Gösgen and Leibstadt, will be shuttered
> > around 2040 and 2045, respectively.
> >
> > Switzerland plans to significantly increase the production of renewable
> > energy from solar and wind over the coming decades to meet its power
> needs.
> > As part of the European grid, Switzerland also buys electricity from
> > neighboring countries such as France, which has numerous nuclear power
> > plants.
> >
> > Earlier this week, campaigners submitted enough signatures to force a
> > referendum on incorporating the goal of making Switzerland "climate
> > neutral" by 2050 in the country's constitution. Doing so would require
> > ending virtually all burning of fossil fuels by midcentury. *— Associated
> > Press*
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

Unfortunately, the US has a number of Nukes that will require retirement 
or refueling in the near term.  Without a program to build more we will 
depend on coal/fossil fuel plants to provide power.  Else, the US may 
have some dark days and cold nights


I was hopeful we might see Va start it's Nuke Power industry with Vepco 
looking at a new reactor in the Western part of the state.  Haven't 
heard anything lately.


LarryT

On 12/20/2019 2:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
Friday, December 20, 2019

Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
the century.

Operator BKW took the Mühleberg Nuclear Power Plant, located 25 miles west
of the capital Bern, off the grid shortly after midday in a ceremony
broadcast live by Switzerland's main public TV station.

BKW, which is majority owned by the canton of Bern, said it plans to begin
dismantling the plant in January, a process that will take until 2034.
Decommissioning and deposing of radioactive remains is estimated to cost 3
billion Swiss francs ($3.1 billion).

Mühleberg is the smallest of Switzerland's four remaining nuclear power
plants. It began operation in 1972.

After the 2011 Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan, Switzerland
decided to gradually phase out nuclear power.

Switzerland is home to the world's oldest still-operating nuclear power
plant, Beznau, which will be shut down toward the end of 2029.

The remaining two nuclear plants, Gösgen and Leibstadt, will be shuttered
around 2040 and 2045, respectively.

Switzerland plans to significantly increase the production of renewable
energy from solar and wind over the coming decades to meet its power needs.
As part of the European grid, Switzerland also buys electricity from
neighboring countries such as France, which has numerous nuclear power
plants.

Earlier this week, campaigners submitted enough signatures to force a
referendum on incorporating the goal of making Switzerland "climate
neutral" by 2050 in the country's constitution. Doing so would require
ending virtually all burning of fossil fuels by midcentury. *— Associated
Press*
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Vlad is flipping the bird to the west with his gas emanations.  He just flipped 
the switch on a massive gas pipeline to China a few days ago.  Their demand, 
his supply, will result in increased prices for NG in NATO nations.  Even the 
folks in AK are trying to ship CNG to our Sino buddies, as the oil fields 
become less productive.  Massive gas fields left untapped should feed some tax 
revenues to the state so it can remain moderately active.

clay

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 7:49 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> So is Europe at the mercy of vlad?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2019, at 10:34 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> They have Vlad’s gas now. They’ll be good. 
>> 
>> --FT
>> Sent from iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

So is Europe at the mercy of vlad?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 10:34 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> They have Vlad’s gas now. They’ll be good. 
> 
> --FT
> Sent from iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Yup they’re making a big mistake.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.
>>> 
 Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 December 20, 2019 at 1:03 PM
 SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
 Friday, December 20, 2019
 
 Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
 a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
 the century
 
>>> ,,,
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

They have Vlad’s gas now. They’ll be good. 

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yup they’re making a big mistake.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.
>> 
>>> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>>> December 20, 2019 at 1:03 PM
>>> SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
>>> Friday, December 20, 2019
>>> 
>>> Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
>>> a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
>>> the century
>>> 
>> ,,,
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
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>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Yup they’re making a big mistake.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.
> 
>> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>> December 20, 2019 at 1:03 PM
>> SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
>> Friday, December 20, 2019
>> 
>> Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, part of
>> a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the middle of
>> the century
>> 
> ,,,
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.

More like a return to the dark ages. 

Rick


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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Unless the place has done some serious upgrades to power supply in the past 45 
years, there is going to be many cold/dark nights.  I recall when the plant 
they just shuttered came online.  Big cheers that there would be reliable power 
so the economy could grow and Helvetia would be safe for many years from power 
failures and brown outs.  There were a few cold and dark winter nights in 
Zurich, even with conservative power usage.  The country runs on electricity, 
well  not the cars, but maybe with all the battery cars, they are sucking more 
electrons.  Maybe the French are providing the electrons to keep CERN lit.


clay

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Don't bet on it.
> 
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:14 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Don't bet on it.

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:14 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.
>
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> > December 20, 2019 at 1:03 PM
> > SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live
> TVPublished:
> > Friday, December 20, 2019
> >
> > Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants,
> > part of
> > a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the
> > middle of
> > the century
> >
> ,,,
> ___
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>
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: End of the Nuke Era in Switzerland

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Dark nights in Confœderatio Helvetica in 30 years.


Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
December 20, 2019 at 1:03 PM
SWITZERLAND47-year-old nuclear power plant shuts down on live TVPublished:
Friday, December 20, 2019

Switzerland today shut down one of its oldest nuclear power plants, 
part of
a plan to end the domestic production of atomic energy before the 
middle of

the century


,,,
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