Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
A friend of mine made a hydrogen turbine engine out of a turbocharger. It was quite impressive when it was running. How is it that a turbo would use heat energy to stuff more air in? Seems it is transfering kinetic energy from the exhaust to the intake via the shaft between the two compressor sections to me. A turbocharger is not a heat engine. It is indeed a heat engine. You can rig up a combustion chamber and make a simple jet engine out of them. A turbocharger is a turbine driven compressor. While there is a kinetic component, the majority of the power delivered to the compressor is from the expansion of the exhaust gasses in the turbine. Same principle as a jet engine, just a single stage rather than the more typical multiple stages (in practice, usually 8 stage compressor and triple stage turbine, but I'm way out of date on those things these days). This is the great advantage of a turbocharger -- all the energy is normally wasted out the tailpipe as heat, the turbo puts it to work compressing the inlet charge air. Note that a crankshaft driven blower is purely parasitic -- it uses output bp to drive the compressor, not free waste heat! That is not to say there are not advantages to it as well (like fixed ratio of input over atmospheric pressure, for instance -- constant boost rather than variable). Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes: A friend of mine made a hydrogen turbine engine out of a turbocharger. It was quite impressive when it was running. Did he do anything useful with it? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
It was stage 1 For stage 2 he built a hydrogen turbine. I'm not sure if he ever got to stage 3. He also modified briggs engines to run on hydrogen and modified briggs engines with fuel injection and had them meeting CARB requirements for cars. He was out riding his mountain bike and died of a massive heart attack. Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes: A friend of mine made a hydrogen turbine engine out of a turbocharger. It was quite impressive when it was running. Did he do anything useful with it? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
How is it that a turbo would use heat energy to stuff more air in? Seems it is transfering kinetic energy from the exhaust to the intake via the shaft between the two compressor sections to me. A turbocharger is not a heat engine. Mike On Jul 15, 2011 11:48 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: To make matters yet more complicated, I drive a CA version 1985 300TD with the trap oxidizer, deigned to reduce emissions (soot). How does this factor into the equation? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: The amount of fuel injected on mechanically governed engines is controlled by the governor (inside the IP as a rule) along with a mechanical over-ride to permit max fuel when the governor doesn't think it's needed. On electronically controlled engines, it's the computer. Diesel engines will NOT run reliably at low speeds or idle without a governor, it's almost impossible to manually control the fuel delivery well enough since it's just a tiny, very short duration squirt at TDC or a bit before. To get the correct fuel/air ratio under load, there must be a metering system that measures the air induction rate, either a flow meter or a pressure transducer correctly calibrated. Black smoke indicates overfueling, but it will also result from incorrect injection timing -- this is very evident in older US made diesels of all kinds due to the use of fixed injection timing set for correct timing at around 2000 rpm. Very much deviation from that rpm and the timing was seriously off -- which means under load as the gears are changed a huge cloud of black smoke from too early injection (and the horrlble sound of the engine knocking very badly) is produced until the rpm gets up to 2000. Mack and Screaming Jimmes were the worst, but they are all bad about it. Easy to tell the ones with variable timing -- not only are they quiet, but no smoke. All new engines have soot traps, and so smoke isn't usually visible. Peter __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
How is it that a turbo would use heat energy to stuff more air in? Seems it is transfering kinetic energy from the exhaust to the intake via the shaft between the two compressor sections to me. A turbocharger is not a heat engine. It is indeed a heat engine. You can rig up a combustion chamber and make a simple jet engine out of them. A turbocharger is a turbine driven compressor. While there is a kinetic component, the majority of the power delivered to the compressor is from the expansion of the exhaust gasses in the turbine. Same principle as a jet engine, just a single stage rather than the more typical multiple stages (in practice, usually 8 stage compressor and triple stage turbine, but I'm way out of date on those things these days). This is the great advantage of a turbocharger -- all the energy is normally wasted out the tailpipe as heat, the turbo puts it to work compressing the inlet charge air. Note that a crankshaft driven blower is purely parasitic -- it uses output bp to drive the compressor, not free waste heat! That is not to say there are not advantages to it as well (like fixed ratio of input over atmospheric pressure, for instance -- constant boost rather than variable). Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Rule of physics. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. Exhaust gasses are loaded with heat energy. The turbine wheel of the turbo extracts that heat energy and converts it to mechanical energy. Exhaust temperature measured down stream of the turbine side is cooler because some of the energy is converted to mechanical energy. Turbocharger consists of two parts. The turbine side and the compressor side. The mechanical energy [force] against the turbine wheel blades drive [through a direct shaft connection] the compressor wheel. The compressor wheel converts the mechanical energy of the turbine shaft into work energy which compresses air [causing a temperature rise in the inlet air charge as the air molecules are pushed together, thus the need for an intercooler] If you measure compressor inlet temp vs compressor exit temp you can see this. Although we don't call it a heat engine it is in a practical sense exactly that. It just uses an external heat source [your otherwise wasted exhaust]. On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.comwrote: How is it that a turbo would use heat energy to stuff more air in? Seems it is transfering kinetic energy from the exhaust to the intake via the shaft between the two compressor sections to me. A turbocharger is not a heat engine. Mike On Jul 15, 2011 11:48 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: To make matters yet more complicated, I drive a CA version 1985 300TD with the trap oxidizer, deigned to reduce emissions (soot). How does this factor into the equation? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: The amount of fuel injected on mechanically governed engines is controlled by the governor (inside the IP as a rule) along with a mechanical over-ride to permit max fuel when the governor doesn't think it's needed. On electronically controlled engines, it's the computer. Diesel engines will NOT run reliably at low speeds or idle without a governor, it's almost impossible to manually control the fuel delivery well enough since it's just a tiny, very short duration squirt at TDC or a bit before. To get the correct fuel/air ratio under load, there must be a metering system that measures the air induction rate, either a flow meter or a pressure transducer correctly calibrated. Black smoke indicates overfueling, but it will also result from incorrect injection timing -- this is very evident in older US made diesels of all kinds due to the use of fixed injection timing set for correct timing at around 2000 rpm. Very much deviation from that rpm and the timing was seriously off -- which means under load as the gears are changed a huge cloud of black smoke from too early injection (and the horrlble sound of the engine knocking very badly) is produced until the rpm gets up to 2000. Mack and Screaming Jimmes were the worst, but they are all bad about it. Easy to tell the ones with variable timing -- not only are they quiet, but no smoke. All new engines have soot traps, and so smoke isn't usually visible. Peter __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com writes: The mechanical energy [force] against the turbine wheel blades drive [through a direct shaft connection] the compressor wheel. The compressor wheel converts the mechanical energy of the turbine shaft into work energy which compresses air [causing a temperature rise in the inlet air charge as the air molecules are pushed together, thus the need for an intercooler] If you measure compressor inlet temp vs compressor exit temp you can see this. The MBZ turbodiesels don't have intercoolers. Well, I don't know if the new CDIs do, but the older e.g. OM617 don't. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Point taken on the intercoolers. thus the NEED for intercoolers was the comment, Needing and having are of course not the same. The point being made was that there is a transfer of energy through the turbocharger from form to form as it does it's work at different components. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. Grant... AZ On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com writes: The mechanical energy [force] against the turbine wheel blades drive [through a direct shaft connection] the compressor wheel. The compressor wheel converts the mechanical energy of the turbine shaft into work energy which compresses air [causing a temperature rise in the inlet air charge as the air molecules are pushed together, thus the need for an intercooler] If you measure compressor inlet temp vs compressor exit temp you can see this. The MBZ turbodiesels don't have intercoolers. Well, I don't know if the new CDIs do, but the older e.g. OM617 don't. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
A turbocharger is not a heat engine. _Everything_ automotive is a heat engine. :-) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Sounds highly plausible, although he didn't say anything about leaks. Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: too ashamed to admit my ignorance [Hop up mill] and plead for an explanation, Probably fixed pressure leaks on the line from the intake manifold to the injection pump, which prevented the IP from thinking there was any turbo boost so it didn't fuel as much as it needed to/could have. -- Jim __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
andrew strasfogel wrote: Sounds highly plausible, although he didn't say anything about leaks. Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? If you drive faster because of it, maybe. If it blows black smoke now, definitely. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Concur. This was the exact cause when my 82 300SD exhibited same symptoms. In my case the leak was in the little rubber hoses that connect the electrical vent valve (forgot the real name) to the hard lines. This is the valve on the firewall that vents the boost pressure to the ALDA when the transmission is shifting. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:55 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for? too ashamed to admit my ignorance [Hop up mill] and plead for an explanation, Probably fixed pressure leaks on the line from the intake manifold to the injection pump, which prevented the IP from thinking there was any turbo boost so it didn't fuel as much as it needed to/could have. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Compared to the fuel you were throwing away before when your turbo wouldn't boost to give you enough air to burn it? Turbochargers actually make a diesel engine MORE efficient. The increased power is a side effect of increased efficiency. There was a discussion a couple weeks ago about guys that discovered they got better fuel economy in diesel trucks by going a little faster which spooled up the turbo and thus raised the efficiency of the engine. -Curt Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:54:16 -0400 From: andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for? Message-ID: CAC35L=vzRWoiaTxxfYH3zd6FEqJrKkFwJ4qgsD+=qzj0ohg...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sounds highly plausible, although he didn't say anything about leaks. Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: too ashamed to admit my ignorance [Hop up mill] and plead for an explanation, Probably fixed pressure leaks on the line from the intake manifold to the injection pump, which prevented the IP from thinking there was any turbo boost so it didn't fuel as much as it needed to/could have. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:29 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: He charged me for an hour of labor, and wrote on the ticket: * Hop up mill; adjust trans*. When I asked him what this meant (hop up mill) he was incredulous that I didn't know and basically thought I was pulling his leg. I think he was the one pulling your leg. Hop up mill? Was this guy a time-traveler from the '50s? That's not even accurate use of hot-rod slang--he didn't hop up the mill, just tuned it. Unless he does such good work that you can overlook it, I'd say to find yourself a new mechanic. One that writes down exactly what he did on the invoice, if for no other reason that in future when the car exhibits the same symptoms you can refer back to it for clues or to rule out something that's already been fixed. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
will this negatively effect my fuel economy? Shouldn't, unless you just can't keep your foot out of the throttle while you enjoy the blinding accelerations. :)) With the turbo working correctly you are now getting a much increased air charge into the engine. More air in a diesel means more power with a moderate increase in fuel. Less air ment you had to push more fuel into the combustion process to expand and drive cylinders but it's a losing combination power wise in the Suck, Squeeze, Bang, and Blow equation. On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:54 AM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.comwrote: Sounds highly plausible, although he didn't say anything about leaks. Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: too ashamed to admit my ignorance [Hop up mill] and plead for an explanation, Probably fixed pressure leaks on the line from the intake manifold to the injection pump, which prevented the IP from thinking there was any turbo boost so it didn't fuel as much as it needed to/could have. -- Jim __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
I located him through the local referral groups. Has the highest user ratings for getting the job done right, honesty, and fair pricing. Plus, he's smart, sardonic, and entertaining enough to make me forgive his jibes and jests. Most importantly, he has been a 123 diesel owner and mechanic since day 1 and knows what it takes to keep them on the road. On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:29 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: He charged me for an hour of labor, and wrote on the ticket: * Hop up mill; adjust trans*. When I asked him what this meant (hop up mill) he was incredulous that I didn't know and basically thought I was pulling his leg. I think he was the one pulling your leg. Hop up mill? Was this guy a time-traveler from the '50s? That's not even accurate use of hot-rod slang--he didn't hop up the mill, just tuned it. Unless he does such good work that you can overlook it, I'd say to find yourself a new mechanic. One that writes down exactly what he did on the invoice, if for no other reason that in future when the car exhibits the same symptoms you can refer back to it for clues or to rule out something that's already been fixed. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
andrew strasfogel wrote: Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? No. It will improve. Because the turbo increases the efficiency of the engine. Unless you use full power quite often. :) -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
I will now be tempted to, since the engine is now resposive to my foot pressure. :) On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: andrew strasfogel wrote: Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? No. It will improve. Because the turbo increases the efficiency of the engine. Unless you use full power quite often. :) -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
He was giving you a line of BS, so that is why I, and others gave you more BS. I figured he either blew out the turbo sense line or changed the fuel filter. If he had changed the liter, I figured he would have charged you for a filter. Since he didn't, I figured he blew out the sense line. I located him through the local referral groups. Has the highest user ratings for getting the job done right, honesty, and fair pricing. Plus, he's smart, sardonic, and entertaining enough to make me forgive his jibes and jests. Most importantly, he has been a 123 diesel owner and mechanic since day 1 and knows what it takes to keep them on the road. On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:29 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: He charged me for an hour of labor, and wrote on the ticket: * Hop up mill; adjust trans*. When I asked him what this meant (hop up mill) he was incredulous that I didn't know and basically thought I was pulling his leg. I think he was the one pulling your leg. Hop up mill? Was this guy a time-traveler from the '50s? That's not even accurate use of hot-rod slang--he didn't hop up the mill, just tuned it. Unless he does such good work that you can overlook it, I'd say to find yourself a new mechanic. One that writes down exactly what he did on the invoice, if for no other reason that in future when the car exhibits the same symptoms you can refer back to it for clues or to rule out something that's already been fixed. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
andrew strasfogel wrote: Folow-up question: With the turbo boost back to normal and power restored in all gears and at all speeds, will this negatively effect my fuel economy? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: No. It will improve. Because the turbo increases the efficiency of the engine. Unless you use full power quite often. :) andrew strasfogel wrote: I will now be tempted to, since the engine is now resposive to my foot pressure. :) Well, it's still a _very_ good idea to make the engine work hard often enough to keep it clean. But that can be, climb the big hill in 3rd gear, wide open every week or two. But at normal cruise, the turbo is recovering some of the waste heat from the engine and using it to stuff more air in. It's this recovery of exhaust heat that causes the overall efficiency to increase. The engine (at least a correctly working Mercedes) does not allow more fuel to be injected than there is air to burn it. If there is no clouds of black smoke, then this is working. So with low boost, there will be less fuel used - but more waste heat. With the turbo working properly, the exhaust heat is used to force air into the engine. This means that the maximum fuel that _can_ be burned is greater - so the maximum power is also greater. But with the engine at cruise, it's the reclamation of heat that provides the fuel economy increase. And that's why it's possible for the outrageous claim to be true: more-power != less-mpg --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
G Mann wrote: With the turbo working correctly you are now getting a much increased air charge into the engine. Correct. More air in a diesel means more power with a moderate increase in fuel. Not so correct. :) Except an wide-open, max power a diesel engine always has an excess of air. The fuel injected burns only as much air as there is fuel to burn. The rest of the air is simply along for the ride. Simply stuffing more air into a diesel engine increases the effective compression ratio. This means it is able to extract a bit more mechanical force from the fuel it does burn. Running a turbo-supercharger scavenges exhaust heat to drive the intake compressor. This compressed intake air overcomes pumping losses as well as increasing the effective compression ratio. Since the exhaust heat is otherwise thrown out the tailpipe, using it is big part of where the _efficiency_ is gained. Less air ment you had to push more fuel into the combustion process to expand and drive cylinders but it's a losing combination power wise in the Suck, Squeeze, Bang, and Blow equation. No. Less air means less fuel _could_ be burned because the engine limits the fuel load based on the air charge. Less boost means lower efficiency _and_ less maximum power. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
I stand ever so humbly corrected. So when a diesel engine is under load and over fueled and makes loads of black smoke due to unburned fuel there is still an excess of air just along for the ride Sorry, with all respect, does not compute in my world of reality and diesel experience. So, if you would be so kind, splain to me just how the engine limits the fuel load based on the air charge? What, other than throttle position at the IP, limits fuel volume at the injector for each RPM of the engine? My humble understanding of physics tells me the turbo extracts heat energy from the exhaust path and converts that to mechanical energy resulting in compressing an additional air charge into the intake path. This translates into a more oxygen rich block of air in the cylinder at the compression / ignition stroke. Additional oxygen supports greater expansion and more complete burning of the fuel supplied at injection which transfers heat energy to mechanical and drives the piston down [power stroke]. More oxygen plus more fuel makes more heat energy, thus more power. To support combustion successful engine physics requires a stotsimetric (sp) ratio of 11.2 to 13.6 . Adding fuel or air outside that ratio band will fail combustion, or at least impact efficiency. Please correct me where I am wrong. It's been working for me for about 30 years now with Mechanical Unit Injection. Grant... AZ On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: G Mann wrote: With the turbo working correctly you are now getting a much increased air charge into the engine. Correct. More air in a diesel means more power with a moderate increase in fuel. Not so correct. :) Except an wide-open, max power a diesel engine always has an excess of air. The fuel injected burns only as much air as there is fuel to burn. The rest of the air is simply along for the ride. Simply stuffing more air into a diesel engine increases the effective compression ratio. This means it is able to extract a bit more mechanical force from the fuel it does burn. Running a turbo-supercharger scavenges exhaust heat to drive the intake compressor. This compressed intake air overcomes pumping losses as well as increasing the effective compression ratio. Since the exhaust heat is otherwise thrown out the tailpipe, using it is big part of where the _efficiency_ is gained. Less air ment you had to push more fuel into the combustion process to expand and drive cylinders but it's a losing combination power wise in the Suck, Squeeze, Bang, and Blow equation. No. Less air means less fuel _could_ be burned because the engine limits the fuel load based on the air charge. Less boost means lower efficiency _and_ less maximum power. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Over-fueling makes horrendous amounts of smoke, for sure. However, unless there is a pressure driven regulator (or the fuel injection system is set to deliver way too much fuel), simply adding a turbo to a NA engine results in only a small increase in power output. The increase in efficiency is small with just one atmosphere (15 psi or so) of added intake pressure. To get more power with turbo boost it is necessary to increase the fuel delivery along with the added air, and this requires a ALDA or pressure compensated injection system of some sort (mechanical or electrical). Otherwise, adding fuel beyond the oxygen capacity of the intake charge results in LESS power due to suppressed combustion and LOTS of smoke, usually followed shortly by engine failure due to diluted oil and usually burned exhaust valves from injection fuel with them open. One of the stupid kids in my local area had a huge exhaust pipe stuck through the floor of the bed of his pickup, and overfueled it to the point that it looked like a coal fired battleship at full speed. Only lasted a few months, thank heaves, the smoke was unbelievable! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
I think Philip meant that when the engine is set up correctly it won't put in more fuel than a given volume of air can support... I also think you went off the rails when you mentioned stociometric (I can't spell it either) ratios. Unfortunately I loaned my copy of the history of Rudolph Diesel's magical invention to Dwight but in the back its got quite an interesting discussion of that and the lean vs rich line on a gasser and then explaining how none of that applies to a diesel. Wish I could remember more of it. -Curt Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:39:00 -0700 From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for? Message-ID: cantulyiqrkktp4+ug8-ok6fqrd11mddbbi71ytddyyaijnq...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I stand ever so humbly corrected. So when a diesel engine is under load and over fueled and makes loads of black smoke due to unburned fuel there is still an excess of air just along for the ride Sorry, with all respect, does not compute in my world of reality and diesel experience. So, if you would be so kind, splain to me just how the engine limits the fuel load based on the air charge? What, other than throttle position at the IP, limits fuel volume at the injector for each RPM of the engine? My humble understanding of physics tells me the turbo extracts heat energy from the exhaust path and converts that to mechanical energy resulting in compressing an additional air charge into the intake path. This translates into a more oxygen rich block of air in the cylinder at the compression / ignition stroke. Additional oxygen supports greater expansion and more complete burning of the fuel supplied at injection which transfers heat energy to mechanical and drives the piston down [power stroke]. More oxygen plus more fuel makes more heat energy, thus more power. To support combustion successful engine physics requires a stotsimetric (sp) ratio of 11.2 to 13.6 . Adding fuel or air outside that ratio band will fail combustion, or at least impact efficiency. Please correct me where I am wrong. It's been working for me for about 30 years now with Mechanical Unit Injection. Grant... AZ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
I've been known to slip off the rails on occasion, so that is possible.. ;)) Thanks, BTW. I'm going to go look up Strochometric... or however the hell you spell it and learn first how to spell it... then how it applies or not to diesel combustion. Grant... AZ On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 7:27 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: I think Philip meant that when the engine is set up correctly it won't put in more fuel than a given volume of air can support... I also think you went off the rails when you mentioned stociometric (I can't spell it either) ratios. Unfortunately I loaned my copy of the history of Rudolph Diesel's magical invention to Dwight but in the back its got quite an interesting discussion of that and the lean vs rich line on a gasser and then explaining how none of that applies to a diesel. Wish I could remember more of it. -Curt Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:39:00 -0700 From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for? Message-ID: cantulyiqrkktp4+ug8-ok6fqrd11mddbbi71ytddyyaijnq...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I stand ever so humbly corrected. So when a diesel engine is under load and over fueled and makes loads of black smoke due to unburned fuel there is still an excess of air just along for the ride Sorry, with all respect, does not compute in my world of reality and diesel experience. So, if you would be so kind, splain to me just how the engine limits the fuel load based on the air charge? What, other than throttle position at the IP, limits fuel volume at the injector for each RPM of the engine? My humble understanding of physics tells me the turbo extracts heat energy from the exhaust path and converts that to mechanical energy resulting in compressing an additional air charge into the intake path. This translates into a more oxygen rich block of air in the cylinder at the compression / ignition stroke. Additional oxygen supports greater expansion and more complete burning of the fuel supplied at injection which transfers heat energy to mechanical and drives the piston down [power stroke]. More oxygen plus more fuel makes more heat energy, thus more power. To support combustion successful engine physics requires a stotsimetric (sp) ratio of 11.2 to 13.6 . Adding fuel or air outside that ratio band will fail combustion, or at least impact efficiency. Please correct me where I am wrong. It's been working for me for about 30 years now with Mechanical Unit Injection. Grant... AZ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
The amount of fuel injected on mechanically governed engines is controlled by the governor (inside the IP as a rule) along with a mechanical over-ride to permit max fuel when the governor doesn't think it's needed. On electronically controlled engines, it's the computer. Diesel engines will NOT run reliably at low speeds or idle without a governor, it's almost impossible to manually control the fuel delivery well enough since it's just a tiny, very short duration squirt at TDC or a bit before. To get the correct fuel/air ratio under load, there must be a metering system that measures the air induction rate, either a flow meter or a pressure transducer correctly calibrated. Black smoke indicates overfueling, but it will also result from incorrect injection timing -- this is very evident in older US made diesels of all kinds due to the use of fixed injection timing set for correct timing at around 2000 rpm. Very much deviation from that rpm and the timing was seriously off -- which means under load as the gears are changed a huge cloud of black smoke from too early injection (and the horrlble sound of the engine knocking very badly) is produced until the rpm gets up to 2000. Mack and Screaming Jimmes were the worst, but they are all bad about it. Easy to tell the ones with variable timing -- not only are they quiet, but no smoke. All new engines have soot traps, and so smoke isn't usually visible. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
To make matters yet more complicated, I drive a CA version 1985 300TD with the trap oxidizer, deigned to reduce emissions (soot). How does this factor into the equation? On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.netwrote: The amount of fuel injected on mechanically governed engines is controlled by the governor (inside the IP as a rule) along with a mechanical over-ride to permit max fuel when the governor doesn't think it's needed. On electronically controlled engines, it's the computer. Diesel engines will NOT run reliably at low speeds or idle without a governor, it's almost impossible to manually control the fuel delivery well enough since it's just a tiny, very short duration squirt at TDC or a bit before. To get the correct fuel/air ratio under load, there must be a metering system that measures the air induction rate, either a flow meter or a pressure transducer correctly calibrated. Black smoke indicates overfueling, but it will also result from incorrect injection timing -- this is very evident in older US made diesels of all kinds due to the use of fixed injection timing set for correct timing at around 2000 rpm. Very much deviation from that rpm and the timing was seriously off -- which means under load as the gears are changed a huge cloud of black smoke from too early injection (and the horrlble sound of the engine knocking very badly) is produced until the rpm gets up to 2000. Mack and Screaming Jimmes were the worst, but they are all bad about it. Easy to tell the ones with variable timing -- not only are they quiet, but no smoke. All new engines have soot traps, and so smoke isn't usually visible. Peter __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
So I ended up taking it in to my mechanic, because the 1985 300TD had no power (especially with AC running), shifted lousy, lost its mojo at 1800 rpm @ 38 mph, and generally acted like a non-aspirated non-turbo diesel. Turns out there really was nothing broken. He charged me for an hour of labor, and wrote on the ticket: * Hop up mill; adjust trans*. When I asked him what this meant (hop up mill) he was incredulous that I didn't know and basically thought I was pulling his leg. i was too ashamed to admit my ignorance and plead for an explanation, so now it's up to someone in the Okiebenz community to fill me in. So what did he do, exactly? The car now has all the pep of the other 300TD. Andrew 1983 and 1985 turbo wagons On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: Off-list: BTW, thanks for the compliment below. :) I am trying to break into the technical communication field (from a background in finance and software engineering) and I appreciate the encouraging words. Alex On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:54 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: Alex,I am in awe of your brilliant, clear and patient explanation. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
He adjusted the intake vacuum flamulator, hopped up the engine injection rate, and adjusted the transmission vacuum modulator So I ended up taking it in to my mechanic, because the 1985 300TD had no power (especially with AC running), shifted lousy, lost its mojo at 1800 rpm @ 38 mph, and generally acted like a non-aspirated non-turbo diesel. Turns out there really was nothing broken. He charged me for an hour of labor, and wrote on the ticket: * Hop up mill; adjust trans*. When I asked him what this meant (hop up mill) he was incredulous that I didn't know and basically thought I was pulling his leg. i was too ashamed to admit my ignorance and plead for an explanation, so now it's up to someone in the Okiebenz community to fill me in. So what did he do, exactly? The car now has all the pep of the other 300TD. Andrew 1983 and 1985 turbo wagons On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: Off-list: BTW, thanks for the compliment below. :) I am trying to break into the technical communication field (from a background in finance and software engineering) and I appreciate the encouraging words. Alex On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:54 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: Alex,I am in awe of your brilliant, clear and patient explanation. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: He adjusted the intake vacuum flamulator, hopped up the engine injection rate, and adjusted the transmission vacuum modulator Probably adjusted the muffler bearings and added blinker fluid too. Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Rick Knoble rickkno...@hotmail.com wrote: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: He adjusted the intake vacuum flamulator, hopped up the engine injection rate, and adjusted the transmission vacuum modulator Probably adjusted the muffler bearings and added blinker fluid too. And found time to send the junior shop boy to the tool truck for a left-handed monkey wrench. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
too ashamed to admit my ignorance [Hop up mill] and plead for an explanation, Probably fixed pressure leaks on the line from the intake manifold to the injection pump, which prevented the IP from thinking there was any turbo boost so it didn't fuel as much as it needed to/could have. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Vacuum Pressure Converter for AT - what's it good for?
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:54 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: Alex,I am in awe of your brilliant, clear and patient explanation. Glad to help. Looking back at what I wrote I shouldn't have been so flippant about the process of testing the BFS. It's not that you can't, just that you can't do so in isolation. In theory if given the right inputs it should output high vacuum to the transmission modulator at low engine load, and low vacuum at high load, with a smooth transition over the range of 10 to 0 in-Hg or so. Thing is, like I said, if anything else is wrong in the system, you'll never be able to isolate a problem with the BFS. Current symptoms in my1985 300TD CA version turbodiesel include hard and early upshifting at low speeds, and sluggish to nonexistent kickdown at1800 - 2000 RPM from 4th to 3rd gear, generally in the 35 - 40 mph range when I really would like a boost going up long hills. I was thinking of picking some of the low hanging fruit, such as swapping out the kickdown switch (I have a spare), as manual kickdown is also dicey at best. Definitely try the new kickdown switch. I'd next go to the accelerator and transmission control linkages (the threaded rods with ball and socket ends above and behind the IP). The procedure in the FSM for adjusting them to factory specs is easy to follow, and on every diesel Benz I've had they have been way out of whack---they can be tweaked to a point to compensate for problems elsewhere in the system, but it's just a Band-Aid. Next the transmission modulators. And don't forget the obvious like vacuum leaks! Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
