Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Yuya Nishihara]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:33:19 -0700, Sean Farley wrote:
> 
> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 00:32 Sean Farley  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
> >>
> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:11 PM Sean Farley  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
> >> >> >> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
> >> >> >> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e.
> >> the
> >> >> 4.8
> >> >> >> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We
> >> >> also
> >> >> >> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
> >> >> >> separate
> >> >> >> > email to the list about that.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
> >> >> >> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of
> >> securing
> >> >> >> a meeting location.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
> >> >> >> venue offers made privately?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on
> >> the
> >> >> > wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
> >> >> > availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not
> >> everyone
> >> >> > could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time.
> >> The
> >> >> > Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and
> >> the
> >> >> > Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed
> >> doing
> >> >> it
> >> >> > in Stockholm and no one objected.
> >> >>
> >> >> In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
> >> >> (either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
> >> >> notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
> >> >> is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
> >> >> got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
> >> >> many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I updated this thread saying that we'd updated wiki with availability for
> >> > Tokyo and Stockholm. There wasn't much more than a mention of Lyon and
> >> > Paris either, so I don't know why Stockholm would be less serious.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
> >> >> community that was already discussing this sprint.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I can understand that it felt that way, and I'm sorry about that. I
> >> suppose
> >> > we could have decided only between Asia and Europe to start with and then
> >> > updated the Availability table on the wiki to have Lyon/Stockholm columns
> >> > instead (Paris didn't seem realistic given the small space). That would
> >> > clearly have delayed the decision (by a week? two?), but perhaps that
> >> would
> >> > have been fine given that the sprint ended up being quite late in the
> >> fall
> >> > this time. At least I (I don't know about others) felt like it was better
> >> > to decide something than to hear everyone's point of view, because I had
> >> a
> >> > feeling we would not reach consensus even if we did.
> >>
> >> I understand the need to make a decision. But this was making a decision
> >> without presenting a clear timeline nor even presenting, you know, an
> >> email saying what you just said above: that you're about to make a
> >> decision and here are your current thoughts.
> >>
> >
> > I agree, that would have been fair. We should have sent a notification to
> > this thread with something like "This thread is not making progress, so the
> > steering committee will decide on a location and time". That message should
> > also have been clear that we were going to decide on an exact location, not
> > just a continent, so people could provide more specific comments about
> > that.
> 
> I understand that email communication can be difficult but I am
> disheartened by your response. It dismisses my work and all the
> volunteers in this thread by ignoring the progress we made. All I wanted
> from this thread was for the committee to engage in a positive way with
> the community. To tell all the community members I've met in my time
> that it is worth it to volunteer.
> 
> I don't believe all is lost, though.

I just thank Kyle for planning Tokyo sprint, which was dismissed btw, you for
bringing up invisible concerns about Asia sprint, Marla, Arthur and Martin
for finding alternative places in Europe.

> > I don't think we'd heard anything more specific than "I prefer
> > Europe" or "I prefer Asia" in this thread (or on the wiki), except that it
> > was pretty clear that Kyle preferred Tokyo 

Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Augie Fackler  writes:

>> On Jul 13, 2018, at 09:29, Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> We took people's voices into account. That's why we choose Europe over Asia 
>> (it felt like people on the committee generally preferred Tokyo). But again, 
>> I agree that we should have been more transparent.
>
> Yep, sorry about the lack of transparency. I think we all burned out on the 
> "all the voices" thread and just decided to decide.

I am sorry you and other from the committee feel burned out. I was
hoping the response I received would be warm and engaging, and not
dismissive or imply that my offer to help was just another complaint. I
am saddened by this response from you / the committee. I would have
liked to thought it was an interesting thread that got more community
members involved that otherwise wouldn't.

In the beginning of this thread you said, "so far I'm seeing complaints
without alternatives" ... ok, so I asked people to help out and start
looking for venues. But it doesn't seem that was enough?

The last few emails from you and Martin have read to me as you both feel
there is nothing to be done. It's very confusing to get a message of
urgency and such a finalized stance from you / the committee yet we have
three months until the next proposed sprint.

I don't see it as irreparable, though. I think the committee could (and
should) go out of their way to repair these strained relations. We have
three months. Why not engage with and coordinate with the people that
have volunteered? Nothing is tying us to host in Stockholm. Now is the
chance to really show that there are people here who are willing to help
the community.

Unfortunately, the message I'm getting is to not bother, though I'd love
to be proven wrong.

> (One other thing that came up, by way of transparency: we'd like to try and 
> plan the spring 2019 sprint somewhat soon, with an eye towards pulling off 
> the Asia-based sprint we've talked about for something like 3 years. I think 
> it'd be nice to get Asia into the rotation, as we might see some new faces.)

I wish you luck. My attempts to engage people and get them involved in
the community were unsuccessful and have depleted me of volunteering
energy. For now, I'll take the weekend off and contemplate on how I can
help the community in other ways.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:

> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 00:32 Sean Farley  wrote:
>
>>
>> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:11 PM Sean Farley  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
>> >> >> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
>> >> >> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e.
>> the
>> >> 4.8
>> >> >> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We
>> >> also
>> >> >> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
>> >> >> separate
>> >> >> > email to the list about that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
>> >> >> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of
>> securing
>> >> >> a meeting location.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
>> >> >> venue offers made privately?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on
>> the
>> >> > wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
>> >> > availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not
>> everyone
>> >> > could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time.
>> The
>> >> > Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and
>> the
>> >> > Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed
>> doing
>> >> it
>> >> > in Stockholm and no one objected.
>> >>
>> >> In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
>> >> (either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
>> >> notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
>> >> is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
>> >> got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
>> >> many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I updated this thread saying that we'd updated wiki with availability for
>> > Tokyo and Stockholm. There wasn't much more than a mention of Lyon and
>> > Paris either, so I don't know why Stockholm would be less serious.
>> >
>> >
>> >> It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
>> >> community that was already discussing this sprint.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I can understand that it felt that way, and I'm sorry about that. I
>> suppose
>> > we could have decided only between Asia and Europe to start with and then
>> > updated the Availability table on the wiki to have Lyon/Stockholm columns
>> > instead (Paris didn't seem realistic given the small space). That would
>> > clearly have delayed the decision (by a week? two?), but perhaps that
>> would
>> > have been fine given that the sprint ended up being quite late in the
>> fall
>> > this time. At least I (I don't know about others) felt like it was better
>> > to decide something than to hear everyone's point of view, because I had
>> a
>> > feeling we would not reach consensus even if we did.
>>
>> I understand the need to make a decision. But this was making a decision
>> without presenting a clear timeline nor even presenting, you know, an
>> email saying what you just said above: that you're about to make a
>> decision and here are your current thoughts.
>>
>
> I agree, that would have been fair. We should have sent a notification to
> this thread with something like "This thread is not making progress, so the
> steering committee will decide on a location and time". That message should
> also have been clear that we were going to decide on an exact location, not
> just a continent, so people could provide more specific comments about
> that.

I understand that email communication can be difficult but I am
disheartened by your response. It dismisses my work and all the
volunteers in this thread by ignoring the progress we made. All I wanted
from this thread was for the committee to engage in a positive way with
the community. To tell all the community members I've met in my time
that it is worth it to volunteer.

I don't believe all is lost, though.

> I don't think we'd heard anything more specific than "I prefer
> Europe" or "I prefer Asia" in this thread (or on the wiki), except that it
> was pretty clear that Kyle preferred Tokyo (or at least Japan in general).
> Thanks for the feedback. We'll try to do better next time.

I thought my offers and that of the others qualified as more than
complaints or "I prefer Europe." I've offered to help. Marla offered to
help. A lot of people spoke up for trying to make something work in
France ... yet, Stockholm was chosen?

It doesn't add up to me. And I very much hope you see how rude this
comes off for community members that thought they could try 

Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 09:29, Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> We took people's voices into account. That's why we choose Europe over Asia 
> (it felt like people on the committee generally preferred Tokyo). But again, 
> I agree that we should have been more transparent.

Yep, sorry about the lack of transparency. I think we all burned out on the 
"all the voices" thread and just decided to decide.

(One other thing that came up, by way of transparency: we'd like to try and 
plan the spring 2019 sprint somewhat soon, with an eye towards pulling off the 
Asia-based sprint we've talked about for something like 3 years. I think it'd 
be nice to get Asia into the rotation, as we might see some new faces.)___
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel]

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 00:32 Sean Farley  wrote:

>
> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:11 PM Sean Farley  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
> >>
> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
> >> >> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
> >> >> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e.
> the
> >> 4.8
> >> >> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We
> >> also
> >> >> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
> >> >> separate
> >> >> > email to the list about that.
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
> >> >> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of
> securing
> >> >> a meeting location.
> >> >>
> >> >> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
> >> >> venue offers made privately?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on
> the
> >> > wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
> >> > availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not
> everyone
> >> > could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time.
> The
> >> > Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and
> the
> >> > Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed
> doing
> >> it
> >> > in Stockholm and no one objected.
> >>
> >> In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
> >> (either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
> >> notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
> >> is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
> >> got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
> >> many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.
> >>
> >
> > I updated this thread saying that we'd updated wiki with availability for
> > Tokyo and Stockholm. There wasn't much more than a mention of Lyon and
> > Paris either, so I don't know why Stockholm would be less serious.
> >
> >
> >> It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
> >> community that was already discussing this sprint.
> >>
> >
> > I can understand that it felt that way, and I'm sorry about that. I
> suppose
> > we could have decided only between Asia and Europe to start with and then
> > updated the Availability table on the wiki to have Lyon/Stockholm columns
> > instead (Paris didn't seem realistic given the small space). That would
> > clearly have delayed the decision (by a week? two?), but perhaps that
> would
> > have been fine given that the sprint ended up being quite late in the
> fall
> > this time. At least I (I don't know about others) felt like it was better
> > to decide something than to hear everyone's point of view, because I had
> a
> > feeling we would not reach consensus even if we did.
>
> I understand the need to make a decision. But this was making a decision
> without presenting a clear timeline nor even presenting, you know, an
> email saying what you just said above: that you're about to make a
> decision and here are your current thoughts.
>

I agree, that would have been fair. We should have sent a notification to
this thread with something like "This thread is not making progress, so the
steering committee will decide on a location and time". That message should
also have been clear that we were going to decide on an exact location, not
just a continent, so people could provide more specific comments about
that. I don't think we'd heard anything more specific than "I prefer
Europe" or "I prefer Asia" in this thread (or on the wiki), except that it
was pretty clear that Kyle preferred Tokyo (or at least Japan in general).
Thanks for the feedback. We'll try to do better next time.


> > Let's try to start planning next sprint earlier (soon), so this doesn't
> > happen again.
>
> This is side stepping the issue. After this experience, why would anyone
> think their voice would be heard? Remember, it was people on the
> committee that asked for more people to help out and voice their
> thoughts.
>

We took people's voices into account. That's why we choose Europe over Asia
(it felt like people on the committee generally preferred Tokyo). But
again, I agree that we should have been more transparent.


> Yes, I agree that planning needs to start earlier.
>
> > By the way, you haven't added your name to the wiki. Will we see you
> there?
>
> I haven't decided yet.
>
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:11 PM Sean Farley  wrote:
>
>>
>> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
>> >> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
>> >> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the
>> 4.8
>> >> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We
>> also
>> >> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
>> >> separate
>> >> > email to the list about that.
>> >>
>> >> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
>> >> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of securing
>> >> a meeting location.
>> >>
>> >> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
>> >> venue offers made privately?
>> >>
>> >
>> > No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on the
>> > wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
>> > availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not everyone
>> > could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time. The
>> > Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and the
>> > Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed doing
>> it
>> > in Stockholm and no one objected.
>>
>> In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
>> (either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
>> notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
>> is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
>> got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
>> many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.
>>
>
> I updated this thread saying that we'd updated wiki with availability for
> Tokyo and Stockholm. There wasn't much more than a mention of Lyon and
> Paris either, so I don't know why Stockholm would be less serious.
>
>
>> It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
>> community that was already discussing this sprint.
>>
>
> I can understand that it felt that way, and I'm sorry about that. I suppose
> we could have decided only between Asia and Europe to start with and then
> updated the Availability table on the wiki to have Lyon/Stockholm columns
> instead (Paris didn't seem realistic given the small space). That would
> clearly have delayed the decision (by a week? two?), but perhaps that would
> have been fine given that the sprint ended up being quite late in the fall
> this time. At least I (I don't know about others) felt like it was better
> to decide something than to hear everyone's point of view, because I had a
> feeling we would not reach consensus even if we did.

I understand the need to make a decision. But this was making a decision
without presenting a clear timeline nor even presenting, you know, an
email saying what you just said above: that you're about to make a
decision and here are your current thoughts.

> Let's try to start planning next sprint earlier (soon), so this doesn't
> happen again.

This is side stepping the issue. After this experience, why would anyone
think their voice would be heard? Remember, it was people on the
committee that asked for more people to help out and voice their
thoughts.

Yes, I agree that planning needs to start earlier.

> By the way, you haven't added your name to the wiki. Will we see you there?

I haven't decided yet.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:11 PM Sean Farley  wrote:

>
> Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
> >> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
> >>
> >> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
> >> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the
> 4.8
> >> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We
> also
> >> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
> >> separate
> >> > email to the list about that.
> >>
> >> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
> >> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of securing
> >> a meeting location.
> >>
> >> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
> >> venue offers made privately?
> >>
> >
> > No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on the
> > wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
> > availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not everyone
> > could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time. The
> > Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and the
> > Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed doing
> it
> > in Stockholm and no one objected.
>
> In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
> (either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
> notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
> is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
> got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
> many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.
>

I updated this thread saying that we'd updated wiki with availability for
Tokyo and Stockholm. There wasn't much more than a mention of Lyon and
Paris either, so I don't know why Stockholm would be less serious.


> It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
> community that was already discussing this sprint.
>

I can understand that it felt that way, and I'm sorry about that. I suppose
we could have decided only between Asia and Europe to start with and then
updated the Availability table on the wiki to have Lyon/Stockholm columns
instead (Paris didn't seem realistic given the small space). That would
clearly have delayed the decision (by a week? two?), but perhaps that would
have been fine given that the sprint ended up being quite late in the fall
this time. At least I (I don't know about others) felt like it was better
to decide something than to hear everyone's point of view, because I had a
feeling we would not reach consensus even if we did.

Let's try to start planning next sprint earlier (soon), so this doesn't
happen again.

By the way, you haven't added your name to the wiki. Will we see you there?
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Martin von Zweigbergk  writes:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:
>
>>
>> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
>> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
>>
>> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
>> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the 4.8
>> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We also
>> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
>> separate
>> > email to the list about that.
>>
>> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
>> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of securing
>> a meeting location.
>>
>> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
>> venue offers made privately?
>>
>
> No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on the
> wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
> availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not everyone
> could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time. The
> Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and the
> Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed doing it
> in Stockholm and no one objected.

In this thread, we talked and made plans so far for some place in France
(either Paris or Lyon). The wiki page you mentioned is an opt-in only
notification and I haven't edited that page nor was I subscribed which
is why I asked about private offers. Not everyone on this mailing list
got those notifications... so, of course, no one objected because not
many of us even knew Stockholm was a serious contender.

It feels like a decision was made without involving the rest of the
community that was already discussing this sprint.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 17:41 Sean Farley  wrote:

>
> Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel <
> mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org> writes:
>
> > Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
> > steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the 4.8
> > sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We also
> > decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a
> separate
> > email to the list about that.
>
> I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
> myself included, offered to help and even began the process of securing
> a meeting location.
>
> Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
> venue offers made privately?
>

No offers made privately (why do you ask?), the offers we had were on the
wiki. Those offers were Tokyo, Lyon, and Stockholm. According to the
availability table, everyone was able to come to Europe, but not everyone
could make it to Asia, so we decided not to do it in Tokyo this time. The
Lyon location was an hour or two further away from most locations and the
Stockholm location (except from France, of course). So I proposed doing it
in Stockholm and no one objected.

I'm that we didn't realize/remember that you were spending time and effort
on finding a location.

>
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel  
writes:

> Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
> steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the 4.8
> sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We also
> decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a separate
> email to the list about that.

I guess I'm really confused about this. In this thread, many people,
myself included, offered to help and even began the process of securing
a meeting location.

Could you please provide insight on how the decision was made? Were
venue offers made privately?


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel]

Since there was no consensus in this thread, we discussed it in the
steering committee. We decided to do it in Europe this time (i.e. the 4.8
sprint) since everyone indicated that they could make it there. We also
decided to do it Oct 12-14 and to do it in Stockholm. I'll send a separate
email to the list about that.

Let's talk about future sprint locations at the 4.8 sprint.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:33 AM Martin von Zweigbergk 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018, 06:12 Arthur Lutz  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Since it's my first message on the list, introductions first : I'm Arthur
>> Lutz and I work for Logilab. I participated in the last Paris Mercurial
>> Sprint and help out Marla with some of the work she does.
>>
>> On 16/06/2018 23:14, Gregory Szorc wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Augie Fackler  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:01, Marla da Silva 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > And if our office does not suit you, we will be happy to help you to
>>> find another place in France.
>>>
>>> More options is always good!
>>>
>>> > Thank you for your attention,
>>>
>>> Thank you for reaching out and the offer! Finding space for sprints is
>>> often a challenge.
>>>
>>
>> I think it would be productive if we could easily see a list of
>> everyone's location availability and preferences so we can make a more
>> informed decision about the location and the trade-offs that would have.
>>
>> I've updated the people availability table at
>> https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/4.8sprint to add columns for location
>> availability and preference. Please update the wiki with your availability
>> and preference.
>>
>> There is another location possible in France, in Lyon. Arthur Vuillard[1]
>> works in a space in Lyon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon which has a
>> larger capacity than our Paris offices.
>>
>> The description is as follows :
>>
>> 3 rooms, one for 18, one for 14 and one for 8. The removable walls can be
>> moved around to combine either two or theses three spaces. There is a
>> coworking space and smaller offices if need for smaller groups. The rooms
>> are full equipped (coffee and tea, projectors, screens, etc.). Hotels are
>> plenty around the location, as a choice of venues for food.
>>
>> Direct access from the train stations and one change required from the
>> airport.
>>
>> The following dates are available :
>>
>> - September 21, 22, 23
>> - September 28, 29, 30
>> - October 05, 06, 07 (but these are the dates of pyconfr
>> https://www.pycon.fr/2018/)
>> - October 12, 13, 14
>> - October 19, 20, 21
>>
>> I'll put this information on the wiki.
>>
>
> We updated the wiki with availability for Tokyo and Stockholm yesterday.
> Could you update the entry for Lyon? Thanks.
>
>
>> Arthur
>>
>> [1] President of the AFPY https://www.afpy.org/ which (amongst other
>> things) organizes the french version of PyCon. Arthur works for a company
>> called Hasbang https://hashbang.fr/
>> ___
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>> Mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org
>> https://www.mercurial-scm.org/mailman/listinfo/mercurial-devel
>>
>
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Martin von Zweigbergk via Mercurial-devel]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018, 06:12 Arthur Lutz  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Since it's my first message on the list, introductions first : I'm Arthur
> Lutz and I work for Logilab. I participated in the last Paris Mercurial
> Sprint and help out Marla with some of the work she does.
>
> On 16/06/2018 23:14, Gregory Szorc wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Augie Fackler  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:01, Marla da Silva 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > And if our office does not suit you, we will be happy to help you to
>> find another place in France.
>>
>> More options is always good!
>>
>> > Thank you for your attention,
>>
>> Thank you for reaching out and the offer! Finding space for sprints is
>> often a challenge.
>>
>
> I think it would be productive if we could easily see a list of everyone's
> location availability and preferences so we can make a more informed
> decision about the location and the trade-offs that would have.
>
> I've updated the people availability table at
> https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/4.8sprint to add columns for location
> availability and preference. Please update the wiki with your availability
> and preference.
>
> There is another location possible in France, in Lyon. Arthur Vuillard[1]
> works in a space in Lyon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon which has a
> larger capacity than our Paris offices.
>
> The description is as follows :
>
> 3 rooms, one for 18, one for 14 and one for 8. The removable walls can be
> moved around to combine either two or theses three spaces. There is a
> coworking space and smaller offices if need for smaller groups. The rooms
> are full equipped (coffee and tea, projectors, screens, etc.). Hotels are
> plenty around the location, as a choice of venues for food.
>
> Direct access from the train stations and one change required from the
> airport.
>
> The following dates are available :
>
> - September 21, 22, 23
> - September 28, 29, 30
> - October 05, 06, 07 (but these are the dates of pyconfr
> https://www.pycon.fr/2018/)
> - October 12, 13, 14
> - October 19, 20, 21
>
> I'll put this information on the wiki.
>

We updated the wiki with availability for Tokyo and Stockholm yesterday.
Could you update the entry for Lyon? Thanks.


> Arthur
>
> [1] President of the AFPY https://www.afpy.org/ which (amongst other
> things) organizes the french version of PyCon. Arthur works for a company
> called Hasbang https://hashbang.fr/
> ___
> Mercurial-devel mailing list
> Mercurial-devel@mercurial-scm.org
> https://www.mercurial-scm.org/mailman/listinfo/mercurial-devel
>
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Arthur Lutz]

Hi,

Since it's my first message on the list, introductions first : I'm 
Arthur Lutz and I work for Logilab. I participated in the last Paris 
Mercurial Sprint and help out Marla with some of the work she does.



On 16/06/2018 23:14, Gregory Szorc wrote:
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Augie Fackler > wrote:




> On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:01, Marla da Silva
mailto:marla.dasi...@logilab.fr>> wrote:
>
> And if our office does not suit you, we will be happy to help you to find 
another place
in France.

More options is always good!

> Thank you for your attention,

Thank you for reaching out and the offer! Finding space for
sprints is often a challenge.


I think it would be productive if we could easily see a list of 
everyone's location availability and preferences so we can make a more 
informed decision about the location and the trade-offs that would have.


I've updated the people availability table at 
https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/4.8sprint to add columns for 
location availability and preference. Please update the wiki with your 
availability and preference.


There is another location possible in France, in Lyon. Arthur 
Vuillard[1] works in a space in Lyon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon 
which has a larger capacity than our Paris offices.


The description is as follows :

3 rooms, one for 18, one for 14 and one for 8. The removable walls can 
be moved around to combine either two or theses three spaces. There is a 
coworking space and smaller offices if need for smaller groups. The 
rooms are full equipped (coffee and tea, projectors, screens, etc.). 
Hotels are plenty around the location, as a choice of venues for food.


Direct access from the train stations and one change required from the 
airport.


The following dates are available :

- September 21, 22, 23
- September 28, 29, 30
- October 05, 06, 07 (but these are the dates of pyconfr 
https://www.pycon.fr/2018/)

- October 12, 13, 14
- October 19, 20, 21

I'll put this information on the wiki.

Arthur

[1] President of the AFPY https://www.afpy.org/ which (amongst other 
things) organizes the french version of PyCon. Arthur works for a 
company called Hasbang https://hashbang.fr/
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Gregory Szorc]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Augie Fackler  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:01, Marla da Silva 
> wrote:
> >
> > We really liked to organize mercurial "mini-sprint" which took place at
> our office few weeks ago and we are ready to organize the "real
> international mercurial sprint"!
> >
> > So, please note that Paris can be a location if you are still looking
> for a place in Europe.
> >
> > Our office is not fancy like other places you have been before in Paris
> but feel welcome to do it here!
> >
> > Our premises are available on:
> >
> > - September 7-8-9
> > - September 14-15-16
> > - October 26-27-28
> > - November 8-9-10
> > - November 23-24-25
> >
> > We have two rooms that can accommodate 12 people each, and also few
> small offices for 2 persons each.
> >
>
> Hm, 12 people would be a little small, I don't think we'd be able to get
> everyone in the room. Our last sprint, which was the smallest sprint in
> recent memory was 16 people - do you have any leads on something that'd at
> least let us get 20 people in a room together?
>
> > Please note that we do not want to stop people motivated from organizing
> this sprint in Japan. Unfortunately, Logilab team won't be able to go there
> this time.
> >
> > And if our office does not suit you, we will be happy to help you to
> find another place in France.
>
> More options is always good!
>
> > Thank you for your attention,
>
> Thank you for reaching out and the offer! Finding space for sprints is
> often a challenge.
>

I think it would be productive if we could easily see a list of everyone's
location availability and preferences so we can make a more informed
decision about the location and the trade-offs that would have.

I've updated the people availability table at
https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/4.8sprint to add columns for location
availability and preference. Please update the wiki with your availability
and preference.
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

> On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:01, Marla da Silva  wrote:
> 
> We really liked to organize mercurial "mini-sprint" which took place at our 
> office few weeks ago and we are ready to organize the "real international 
> mercurial sprint"!
> 
> So, please note that Paris can be a location if you are still looking for a 
> place in Europe.
> 
> Our office is not fancy like other places you have been before in Paris but 
> feel welcome to do it here!
> 
> Our premises are available on:
> 
> - September 7-8-9
> - September 14-15-16
> - October 26-27-28
> - November 8-9-10
> - November 23-24-25
> 
> We have two rooms that can accommodate 12 people each, and also few small 
> offices for 2 persons each.
> 

Hm, 12 people would be a little small, I don't think we'd be able to get 
everyone in the room. Our last sprint, which was the smallest sprint in recent 
memory was 16 people - do you have any leads on something that'd at least let 
us get 20 people in a room together?

> Please note that we do not want to stop people motivated from organizing this 
> sprint in Japan. Unfortunately, Logilab team won't be able to go there this 
> time.
> 
> And if our office does not suit you, we will be happy to help you to find 
> another place in France.

More options is always good!

> Thank you for your attention,

Thank you for reaching out and the offer! Finding space for sprints is often a 
challenge.

> 
> Marla.
> 
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Marla da Silva]

Dear mercurial community,

First of all, I would like to introduce myself, I am Marla and I am 
communication officer at Logilab.



On 13/06/2018 02:33, Sean Farley wrote:

Kyle Lippincott  writes:


On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM, Sean Farley  wrote:


Kyle Lippincott  writes:


On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Boris FELD 

wrote:

Hello everyone,

I have also been in contact with Mercurial contributors, small
contributors and users from Europe. From what we heard, it's both a
question of time involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to

them.

It's not the same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip

travel

to the neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8

hours

jetlag travel to Japan.

I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated
to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is

also a

great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask their
questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these European

users

and small contributor and would be sad to skip an opportunity to keep in
touch with them.


These same reasonings can be *for* having a sprint in Asia as well. :)

We

have two regular contributors who regularly attend sprints that are in
Japan already, and at least one more on the IRC channel that expressed
interest in attending a Japan sprint because they're in Japan; they've
never attended a Mercurial sprint before.



For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling,

it

would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different
money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common
language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why
having sprints on different continents.

I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a

great

opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the
European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My
preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan
sprint with more concertation.


"which has been waiting for this sprint for a year" implies some

guarantee

that we're going to have it in Europe every year

Well, that's been the pattern for over 6 years so I have a bit of
sympathy for people assuming that.


Sure, but I've been saying since I've been attending them that we should
have one in Japan, so this shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone that's
been at ones that I've attended (which is every one since Montreal, I
believe) that this was likely to be proposed :)

I can see that, for sure, since I too have been requesting this :-) But,
for me at least, some of this is just common courtesy to our users in
Europe. Enough have spoken out (either to me personally or on this
thread) that I'm convinced we should do a full cycle (North America --
Europe) before adding another into the cycle.

It's hard to convey tone over text, so I'd like to say that I'm only
trying to open and facilitate this discussion and not try to push things
too hard.


[...]

I don't think there's anything incorrect about your reasoning. I am just
trying to be conscious of the European contributors who have already
made plans for a European site. It doesn't seem fair to those who have
already planned based on the previous continent cycle.


Are there already such plans that have been made?  Expecting something to
happen and planning for it to happen are slightly different.

I'd like to find a way forward here that doesn't summarize as "Asia can't
ever happen", because that's not fair to Asia contributors (including

Oh, no, I hope that's not the opinion that I've projected. I definitely,
definitely think we should enter Asia into the rotation.


[...]

I will note that my likelihood of planning two sprints in a row is pretty
much null.  Since I'm the one pushing for a Japan (or other Asia) sprint in
the first place, this likely means that I'd *not* participate in planning a
Europe one if we decide Europe must happen in the fall for some reason and
Japan will happen in the spring (and then North America in Fall 2019,
presumably), so that I can save my sanity for planning the one in spring.
   Someone else will need to plan it if it's going to happen in Europe this
fall :)

That's entirely fair! I wouldn't expect nor ask someone to do that
at all. At the very least, I can help plan this European one but from my
understanding there are multiple people to also help share that burden.


So, how do we move forward with deciding the location for this fall?

That is a good question which I do not know. I asked the person at
Logilab I spoke with (Marla) to chime in. I'm hoping that will help with
concrete ideas and suggestions but am not sure on the overall decision
making.


We really liked to organize mercurial "mini-sprint" which took place at 
our office few weeks ago and we are ready to organize the "real 
international mercurial sprint"!

Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Kyle Lippincott  writes:

> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM, Sean Farley  wrote:
>
>>
>> Kyle Lippincott  writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Boris FELD 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello everyone,
>> >>
>> >> I have also been in contact with Mercurial contributors, small
>> >> contributors and users from Europe. From what we heard, it's both a
>> >> question of time involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to
>> them.
>> >> It's not the same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip
>> travel
>> >> to the neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8
>> hours
>> >> jetlag travel to Japan.
>> >>
>> >> I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated
>> >> to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is
>> also a
>> >> great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask their
>> >> questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these European
>> users
>> >> and small contributor and would be sad to skip an opportunity to keep in
>> >> touch with them.
>> >>
>> >
>> > These same reasonings can be *for* having a sprint in Asia as well. :)
>> We
>> > have two regular contributors who regularly attend sprints that are in
>> > Japan already, and at least one more on the IRC channel that expressed
>> > interest in attending a Japan sprint because they're in Japan; they've
>> > never attended a Mercurial sprint before.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling,
>> it
>> >> would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different
>> >> money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common
>> >> language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why
>> >> having sprints on different continents.
>> >>
>> >> I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a
>> great
>> >> opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the
>> >> European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My
>> >> preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan
>> >> sprint with more concertation.
>> >>
>> >
>> > "which has been waiting for this sprint for a year" implies some
>> guarantee
>> > that we're going to have it in Europe every year
>>
>> Well, that's been the pattern for over 6 years so I have a bit of
>> sympathy for people assuming that.
>>
>
> Sure, but I've been saying since I've been attending them that we should
> have one in Japan, so this shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone that's
> been at ones that I've attended (which is every one since Montreal, I
> believe) that this was likely to be proposed :)

I can see that, for sure, since I too have been requesting this :-) But,
for me at least, some of this is just common courtesy to our users in
Europe. Enough have spoken out (either to me personally or on this
thread) that I'm convinced we should do a full cycle (North America --
Europe) before adding another into the cycle.

It's hard to convey tone over text, so I'd like to say that I'm only
trying to open and facilitate this discussion and not try to push things
too hard.

>> [...]
>>
>> I don't think there's anything incorrect about your reasoning. I am just
>> trying to be conscious of the European contributors who have already
>> made plans for a European site. It doesn't seem fair to those who have
>> already planned based on the previous continent cycle.
>>
>
> Are there already such plans that have been made?  Expecting something to
> happen and planning for it to happen are slightly different.
>
> I'd like to find a way forward here that doesn't summarize as "Asia can't
> ever happen", because that's not fair to Asia contributors (including

Oh, no, I hope that's not the opinion that I've projected. I definitely,
definitely think we should enter Asia into the rotation.

> [...]
>
> I will note that my likelihood of planning two sprints in a row is pretty
> much null.  Since I'm the one pushing for a Japan (or other Asia) sprint in
> the first place, this likely means that I'd *not* participate in planning a
> Europe one if we decide Europe must happen in the fall for some reason and
> Japan will happen in the spring (and then North America in Fall 2019,
> presumably), so that I can save my sanity for planning the one in spring.
>   Someone else will need to plan it if it's going to happen in Europe this
> fall :)

That's entirely fair! I wouldn't expect nor ask someone to do that
at all. At the very least, I can help plan this European one but from my
understanding there are multiple people to also help share that burden.

> So, how do we move forward with deciding the location for this fall?

That is a good question which I do not know. I asked the person at
Logilab I spoke with (Marla) to chime in. I'm hoping that will help with
concrete ideas and suggestions but am not sure on the overall decision
making.


signature.asc
Description: PGP 

Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Kyle Lippincott]

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM, Sean Farley  wrote:

>
> Kyle Lippincott  writes:
>
> > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Boris FELD 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello everyone,
> >>
> >> I have also been in contact with Mercurial contributors, small
> >> contributors and users from Europe. From what we heard, it's both a
> >> question of time involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to
> them.
> >> It's not the same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip
> travel
> >> to the neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8
> hours
> >> jetlag travel to Japan.
> >>
> >> I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated
> >> to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is
> also a
> >> great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask their
> >> questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these European
> users
> >> and small contributor and would be sad to skip an opportunity to keep in
> >> touch with them.
> >>
> >
> > These same reasonings can be *for* having a sprint in Asia as well. :)
> We
> > have two regular contributors who regularly attend sprints that are in
> > Japan already, and at least one more on the IRC channel that expressed
> > interest in attending a Japan sprint because they're in Japan; they've
> > never attended a Mercurial sprint before.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling,
> it
> >> would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different
> >> money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common
> >> language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why
> >> having sprints on different continents.
> >>
> >> I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a
> great
> >> opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the
> >> European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My
> >> preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan
> >> sprint with more concertation.
> >>
> >
> > "which has been waiting for this sprint for a year" implies some
> guarantee
> > that we're going to have it in Europe every year
>
> Well, that's been the pattern for over 6 years so I have a bit of
> sympathy for people assuming that.
>

Sure, but I've been saying since I've been attending them that we should
have one in Japan, so this shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone that's
been at ones that I've attended (which is every one since Montreal, I
believe) that this was likely to be proposed :)


>
> > [...]
>
> > To summarize, I'm not sure I have an answer to this question: Why,
> > specifically, is having the *Fall 2018* sprint (and the Spring 2020
> sprint,
> > etc.) in Europe important, vs. having it in Europe in Spring 2019, Fall
> > 2020, etc.?  I have to assume it's due to some issue with travel to the
> > previous sprint that is *atypical*, and I'm not sure I understand at the
> > moment what those issues are.
>
> I don't think there's anything incorrect about your reasoning. I am just
> trying to be conscious of the European contributors who have already
> made plans for a European site. It doesn't seem fair to those who have
> already planned based on the previous continent cycle.
>

Are there already such plans that have been made?  Expecting something to
happen and planning for it to happen are slightly different.

I'd like to find a way forward here that doesn't summarize as "Asia can't
ever happen", because that's not fair to Asia contributors (including
India, which I believe has shorter flight times to Tokyo, assuming
non-stop, than to Paris, London, or Dublin, the last three Europe sprints),
just like if we had replaced Europe with Asia (so the cycle was something
like North America, Asia, North America, Europe, North America, Asia)
wouldn't be fair to people coming from
europe/asia/anywhere-besides-north-and-south-america.

I will note that my likelihood of planning two sprints in a row is pretty
much null.  Since I'm the one pushing for a Japan (or other Asia) sprint in
the first place, this likely means that I'd *not* participate in planning a
Europe one if we decide Europe must happen in the fall for some reason and
Japan will happen in the spring (and then North America in Fall 2019,
presumably), so that I can save my sanity for planning the one in spring.
  Someone else will need to plan it if it's going to happen in Europe this
fall :)

So, how do we move forward with deciding the location for this fall?
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 12:30 AM, Sean Farley  wrote:
> 
>> I'm more interested in this discussion if someone wants to find a place in 
>> Europe and be a champion for it, but so far I'm seeing complaints without 
>> alternatives. 
> 
> I thought my first email had a suggested alternative? I'd be more than
> happy to help plan (in either location actually).

If so I missed it - all I’ve seen on-thread is enthusiasm for Europe 
generically, not a specific suggestion of a facility we could use.

I know it feels like we’ve got a lot of time to plan, but if we’re aiming for 
September, that really means getting a sprint nailed down in the next two 
months, which will rush by surprisingly quickly from experience. ;)
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Augie Fackler  writes:

>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 14:50, Kyle Lippincott  wrote:
>> The arguments, as I understood them, for it being NOT Europe taking this 
>> initial hit was that the Spring 2018 sprint was that there were issues that 
>> prevented some people who would otherwise have attended it in from doing so 
>> such as travel restrictions (can't attend ones in USA, but could presumably 
>> attend *anywhere else* - Canada included, not just Europe), but the 
>> *primary* reason they couldn't attend was that it was scheduled with 
>> relatively short notice.
>
> It's worth pointing out that the /reason/ the sprint was short-notice was 
> that nobody really stepped up to organize it, so I took charge at the last 
> minute and basically made the only sprint that could work happen. The 
> alternative to a short-notice sprint was no-sprint, because nobody else was 
> going to organize it.

Definitely, props should be given :-)

> Along those lines, it'd help if those that'd prefer a European sprint could 
> pony up someone to sponsor with space. Right now the only proposal I see is 
> Japan, so I'd say a small sprint in Japan beats the current alternative of 
> not having a sprint.

I don't think that was what I meant but apologies if so.

> I'm more interested in this discussion if someone wants to find a place in 
> Europe and be a champion for it, but so far I'm seeing complaints without 
> alternatives. 

I thought my first email had a suggested alternative? I'd be more than
happy to help plan (in either location actually).

> Sadly, I won't be able to offer organizational assistance: I'm oversubscribed 
> on things to accomplish already, and I wouldn't be able to organize a sprint 
> even if it was in Pittsburgh, much less in another timezone.
>
> Summary: if you want to make a sprint in not-Japan happen, find a host and 
> get it in the wiki so we can compare potential attendee lists etc, otherwise 
> it'll probably be Japan by default.

It's still quite early in the discussion, so I don't think there's much
yet but I can look into a few places if that would help.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Kyle Lippincott  writes:

> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Boris FELD  wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I have also been in contact with Mercurial contributors, small
>> contributors and users from Europe. From what we heard, it's both a
>> question of time involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to them.
>> It's not the same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip travel
>> to the neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8 hours
>> jetlag travel to Japan.
>>
>> I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated
>> to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is also a
>> great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask their
>> questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these European users
>> and small contributor and would be sad to skip an opportunity to keep in
>> touch with them.
>>
>
> These same reasonings can be *for* having a sprint in Asia as well. :)  We
> have two regular contributors who regularly attend sprints that are in
> Japan already, and at least one more on the IRC channel that expressed
> interest in attending a Japan sprint because they're in Japan; they've
> never attended a Mercurial sprint before.
>
>
>>
>> For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling, it
>> would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different
>> money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common
>> language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why
>> having sprints on different continents.
>>
>> I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a great
>> opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the
>> European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My
>> preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan
>> sprint with more concertation.
>>
>
> "which has been waiting for this sprint for a year" implies some guarantee
> that we're going to have it in Europe every year

Well, that's been the pattern for over 6 years so I have a bit of
sympathy for people assuming that.

> [...]

> To summarize, I'm not sure I have an answer to this question: Why,
> specifically, is having the *Fall 2018* sprint (and the Spring 2020 sprint,
> etc.) in Europe important, vs. having it in Europe in Spring 2019, Fall
> 2020, etc.?  I have to assume it's due to some issue with travel to the
> previous sprint that is *atypical*, and I'm not sure I understand at the
> moment what those issues are.

I don't think there's anything incorrect about your reasoning. I am just
trying to be conscious of the European contributors who have already
made plans for a European site. It doesn't seem fair to those who have
already planned based on the previous continent cycle.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

> On Jun 7, 2018, at 14:50, Kyle Lippincott  wrote:
> The arguments, as I understood them, for it being NOT Europe taking this 
> initial hit was that the Spring 2018 sprint was that there were issues that 
> prevented some people who would otherwise have attended it in from doing so 
> such as travel restrictions (can't attend ones in USA, but could presumably 
> attend *anywhere else* - Canada included, not just Europe), but the *primary* 
> reason they couldn't attend was that it was scheduled with relatively short 
> notice.

It's worth pointing out that the /reason/ the sprint was short-notice was that 
nobody really stepped up to organize it, so I took charge at the last minute 
and basically made the only sprint that could work happen. The alternative to a 
short-notice sprint was no-sprint, because nobody else was going to organize it.

Along those lines, it'd help if those that'd prefer a European sprint could 
pony up someone to sponsor with space. Right now the only proposal I see is 
Japan, so I'd say a small sprint in Japan beats the current alternative of not 
having a sprint. I'm more interested in this discussion if someone wants to 
find a place in Europe and be a champion for it, but so far I'm seeing 
complaints without alternatives. Sadly, I won't be able to offer organizational 
assistance: I'm oversubscribed on things to accomplish already, and I wouldn't 
be able to organize a sprint even if it was in Pittsburgh, much less in another 
timezone.

Summary: if you want to make a sprint in not-Japan happen, find a host and get 
it in the wiki so we can compare potential attendee lists etc, otherwise it'll 
probably be Japan by default.

AF
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Kyle Lippincott]

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Boris FELD  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I have also been in contact with Mercurial contributors, small
> contributors and users from Europe. From what we heard, it's both a
> question of time involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to them.
> It's not the same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip travel
> to the neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8 hours
> jetlag travel to Japan.
>
> I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated
> to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is also a
> great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask their
> questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these European users
> and small contributor and would be sad to skip an opportunity to keep in
> touch with them.
>

These same reasonings can be *for* having a sprint in Asia as well. :)  We
have two regular contributors who regularly attend sprints that are in
Japan already, and at least one more on the IRC channel that expressed
interest in attending a Japan sprint because they're in Japan; they've
never attended a Mercurial sprint before.


>
> For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling, it
> would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different
> money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common
> language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why
> having sprints on different continents.
>
> I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a great
> opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the
> European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My
> preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan
> sprint with more concertation.
>

"which has been waiting for this sprint for a year" implies some guarantee
that we're going to have it in Europe every year - if I understand smf's
proposal, we would continue the twice-yearly sprint frequency, but have
three locations, so we'd see:

 Previously:
Fall 2016: Paris, France
Spring 2017: Mountain View, CA, USA
Fall 2017: Dublin, Ireland
Spring 2018: Cambridge, MA, USA
 smf proposal:
Fall 2018: Europe
Spring 2019: Asia
Fall 2019: North America
Spring 2020: Europe
Fall 2020: Asia
Spring 2021: North America
...

vs. My proposal:
Fall 2018: Japan
Spring 2019: Europe
Fall 2019: North America
Spring 2020: Asia
Fall 2020: Europe
Spring 2021: North America

The only question I'm seeing about this is whether the upcoming schedule
is, starting in Fall 2018, "Europe, Asia, North America" cycling, or "Asia,
Europe, North America" cycling.  i.e. which location (Europe or North
America) takes the first 1.5 year hit, after which all will (assuming we
keep the Asia sprints).

The arguments, as I understood them, for it being NOT Europe taking this
initial hit was that the Spring 2018 sprint was that there were issues that
prevented some people who would otherwise have attended it in from doing so
such as travel restrictions (can't attend ones in USA, but could presumably
attend *anywhere else* - Canada included, not just Europe), but the
*primary* reason they couldn't attend was that it was scheduled with
relatively short notice.  These people were thinking "Oh, it's short notice
to make such a journey, I'll regretfully skip it, and attend the next one,
which *as a bonus* will be closer".  This is specifically *not*, as far as
I understand, "It's short notice to make such a journey, I'll regretfully
skip it, and attend the next one *only because it's closer*", which is a
slightly different thought - the "only because it's closer" part negates
the "short notice" qualification :)

I'm definitely sympathetic to the travel time concerns; half of the reason
I'm pushing for Japan for the fall sprint is because my GF has decided
we're going to Japan in the fall this year, and I don't want to do Europe
*and* Japan in a two month timespan :)  I'm also sympathetic to the "I
regularly attend, but couldn't attend the Spring 2018 due to the short
notice", which is why when smf brought this up I said we should definitely
discuss it.

However, assuming we do establish a three-region rotation, I'm not sure I
understand "I'd like to attend, but can only do so if it's near me" being a
reason to *delay* establishing the three-region rotation - there's little
difference for those that can attend only when the travel time is shorter
(and please don't misunderstand: this is *totally* a valid reason) if we
start the rotation in Asia vs. Europe, unless I'm missing something?

To summarize, I'm not sure I have an answer to this question: Why,
specifically, is having the *Fall 2018* sprint (and the Spring 2020 sprint,
etc.) in Europe important, vs. having it in Europe in Spring 2019, Fall
2020, etc.?  I have to assume it's due to some issue with travel to the
previous sprint that is 

Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

> On Jun 7, 2018, at 12:16, Boris FELD  wrote:
> 
> I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a great 
> opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of the European 
> community which has been waiting for this sprint for a year. My preference is 
> to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a Japan sprint with more 
> concertation.

I'm not sure if this is what you're proposing, but I think a 
three-sprints-a-year cadence is probably a bit much.
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Boris FELD]

Hello everyone,

I havealsobeen in contactwith Mercurial contributors, small contributors 
and usersfrom Europe. From what we heard, it'sboth a question of time 
involvements and energy cost that is a rebuttal to them. It's not the 
same time and energy cost to make a 6 hours roundtrip travel to the 
neighboring country versus doing a 24 hours round trip and 8 hours 
jetlag travel to Japan.


I think the sprint is a great way for small contributors to be motivated 
to keep being involved and sometimes become core contributors. It is 
also a great opportunity for wild users to discuss their workflows, ask 
their questions and give us their feedback. I've met many of these 
European users and small contributor and would be sad to skip an 
opportunity to keep in touch with them.


For community members who aren't accustomed to international traveling, 
it would be even harder for them to travel to a country with a different 
money, a different language with more challenge to interact in a common 
language and a different culture. This seems one of the core reason why 
having sprints on different continents.


I think start connecting with the Japan contributors and users is a 
great opportunity, I would just hope it would not be at the expense of 
the European community which has been waiting for this sprint for a 
year. My preference is to keep the next sprint in Europe and introduce a 
Japan sprint with more concertation.


On 06/06/2018 16:33, Kevin Bullock wrote:

On Jun 5, 2018, at 23:02, Sean Farley  wrote:

Hello everyone!

I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
Japan.

Without going into personal details, can you summarize what people's 
reservations are? Travel time? Cost? Ability to get a visa? I'm wondering if 
there are issues we could work around (e.g. drum up more travel funding).

pacem in terris / мир / शान्ति / ‎‫سَلاَم‬ / 平和
Kevin R. Bullock



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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Augie Fackler]

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 02:08:40PM -0700, Sean Farley wrote:
>
> Kevin Bullock  writes:
>
> >> On Jun 5, 2018, at 23:02, Sean Farley  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello everyone!
> >>
> >> I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
> >> In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
> >> reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
> >> Japan.
> >
> > Without going into personal details, can you summarize what people's 
> > reservations are? Travel time? Cost? Ability to get a visa? I'm wondering 
> > if there are issues we could work around (e.g. drum up more travel funding).
>
> I can't speak for everyone's personal reason, of course, but the
> sentiment I got was a combination of many things. I think a major issue
> was that some of the people wanting to attend had children or family
> constraints that makes traveling a bit difficult.

The travel time from the Eastern US is enough shorter that I'm
probably more likely to make an EU sprint than a JP sprint[0],
especially since I could combine it with other work visits in Europe,
for what it's worth.

That said, it'd be nice to give our contributors in Japan a shorter
commute. We've been talking about it for years.

Augie


0: For the "family constraints" mentioned - we're still enough in the
"new family member" stage I don't know how easy travel will be in the
fall, so I might have to be judicious about how much time I spend away
from home. There's a chance I wouldn't make /any/ sprint this fall, so
probably don't plan around me?
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Philippe Pepiot]

On 07/06/2018, Denis Laxalde wrote:
> Sean Farley a écrit :
> > I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
> > In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
> > reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
> > Japan.
> 
> Thanks for bringing this discussion up!
> 
> > The major reasons for me are:
> > 
> > - a lot of Europeans were (and still are) unable to travel to the US
> >   easily; therefore, weren't able to make it to the last sprint
> > 
> > - since people weren't able to make it to the last sprint (me
> >   included!), there was a tradition of having the 2nd sprint of the year
> >   in Europe. This would be ~15 people for the 4.8 sprint
> 
> 
> I've attended to the last two sprints in Europe (where I live) and but
> did attend those in the US. This is mainly for personal reasons; not
> that I can't travel to the US (nor anywhere else), but rather that I try
> to avoid long travels unless I feel it's really worth it. So I won't go
> to Japan and, likewise, I won't necessarily go anywhere in Europe.
> 
> As a casual contributor, attending to a sprint regularly (once a year is
> okay, perhaps one year and a half would be too) and meeting the
> community helps me staying involved.
> 
> That being said, I understand that people in Asia might have the same
> wish to have a sprint held close to where they live. So I totally in
> favor of adding other locations for sprints!

+1

I've attended to the Paris sprint (my first and last) and always
consider going to sprints when they are scheduled in Europe.
Having 3 sprints looks a good compromise.

> > So, I was thinking of proposing the following compromise: having the 4.8
> > sprint in Europe and inserting Japan into the rotation after that (e.g.
> > 5.0 is in Japan and 5.2 is in North America).
> 
> Seems fine to me (obviously). Otherwise, when is supposed to be the next
> sprint in Europe if the next one is in Japan? Does the Japan sprint
> intercalate or replace the one in Europe?
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Denis Laxalde]

Sean Farley a écrit :
> I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
> In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
> reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
> Japan.

Thanks for bringing this discussion up!

> The major reasons for me are:
> 
> - a lot of Europeans were (and still are) unable to travel to the US
>   easily; therefore, weren't able to make it to the last sprint
> 
> - since people weren't able to make it to the last sprint (me
>   included!), there was a tradition of having the 2nd sprint of the year
>   in Europe. This would be ~15 people for the 4.8 sprint


I've attended to the last two sprints in Europe (where I live) and but
did attend those in the US. This is mainly for personal reasons; not
that I can't travel to the US (nor anywhere else), but rather that I try
to avoid long travels unless I feel it's really worth it. So I won't go
to Japan and, likewise, I won't necessarily go anywhere in Europe.

As a casual contributor, attending to a sprint regularly (once a year is
okay, perhaps one year and a half would be too) and meeting the
community helps me staying involved.

That being said, I understand that people in Asia might have the same
wish to have a sprint held close to where they live. So I totally in
favor of adding other locations for sprints!


> So, I was thinking of proposing the following compromise: having the 4.8
> sprint in Europe and inserting Japan into the rotation after that (e.g.
> 5.0 is in Japan and 5.2 is in North America).

Seems fine to me (obviously). Otherwise, when is supposed to be the next
sprint in Europe if the next one is in Japan? Does the Japan sprint
intercalate or replace the one in Europe?
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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Sean Farley]

Kevin Bullock  writes:

>> On Jun 5, 2018, at 23:02, Sean Farley  wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone!
>>
>> I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
>> In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
>> reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
>> Japan.
>
> Without going into personal details, can you summarize what people's 
> reservations are? Travel time? Cost? Ability to get a visa? I'm wondering if 
> there are issues we could work around (e.g. drum up more travel funding).

I can't speak for everyone's personal reason, of course, but the
sentiment I got was a combination of many things. I think a major issue
was that some of the people wanting to attend had children or family
constraints that makes traveling a bit difficult.


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Re: Discussion about Mercurial 4.8 Sprint

[Kevin Bullock]

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 23:02, Sean Farley  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone!
> 
> I want to bring up a discussion about the next location for the sprint.
> In my recent travels, I talked with ~10 people who expressed some
> reservations about being able to make the next sprint if it is held in
> Japan.

Without going into personal details, can you summarize what people's 
reservations are? Travel time? Cost? Ability to get a visa? I'm wondering if 
there are issues we could work around (e.g. drum up more travel funding).

pacem in terris / мир / शान्ति / ‎‫سَلاَم‬ / 平和
Kevin R. Bullock



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