[meteorite-list] Christian Anger + Gero Kurat (1938-2009)
I am deeply saddened to learn about the death of Christian, a fellow collector and friend for so many many years. Sadly, this is not the only terrible news from Austria, recently: Prof. Gero Kurat, the former curator of the meteorite collection at the Natural History Museum in Vienna, Austria, and past president of the Meteoritical Society died on November 27, 2009, at the age of only 71. http://www.meteoriticalsociety.org/news_display.cfm?code=news_intro&itemID=51&CFID=3978395&CFTOKEN=27350152 http://solarsystem.wustl.edu/2009/12/01/gerot-kurat/ Both great individuals will truly be missed! My sincere condolences to his families and friends. Joern Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com]im Auftrag von > impact...@aol.com > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Januar 2010 23:57 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Cc: h63str...@aol.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Christian Anger > > > > > Hello everybody, > > I just received this email (below) from Hanno, with very sad news. > For all of you who did not know Christian Anger, he was an > expert meteorite > collector and a very friendly guy. In his real life he was an > Engineer, and > lived near Vienna, Austria. He leaves behind an (ex)wife and > two little > girls. > And I still remember when we were waltzing together in > Ensisheim, in much > happier times. > > Anne M. Black > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) > > Hello Anne, > > today I received an email from Harald Stehlik, that our good friend > Christian Anger had on 14.dec 2009 a very heavy car accident > and he died. > > I am very shocked and sad, because Christian was not only a > collector but a > friend. > Everybody know how much fun we had when we were togheter. > We had also other private contact and were real friends. > > At first he told me that he cannot come to the Munich show, > because he had > so many private problems in his mind. > Then he called me thursday evening when I was in Munich that > he decided to > come. So he was with us friday evening at the Fliegerbräu and > stayed in > Munich till sunday afternoon. He helped me to bring some of > my material back > into the car sunday afternoon. > This was the last time I saw him. > > True friendship never ends.. > > Hanno Strufe > > __ > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Book offers
Hello Listees, For those interested in hard-to-get bibliophilic books on meteorites. I just came across the following offers: 1. Nagy, B. Carbonaceous meteorites (surprisingly, there are currently two dealers offering this rare monograph): http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=812697435 http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=810823942&isbn=011895 2. Flight, W. A Chapter in the History of Meteorites http://www.biblio.com/books/111241915.html No guarantee, if books are still available. I did not ask the seller as I already have them in the library. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz MetBase Library __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ad Unusual Meteor Crater stock sale
Dear Mike, I may be interested in the (first) stock #16. What is the price and do you have an image? Best wishes from hot & sunny Bremen, Jörn _ Jörn Koblitz Managing Editor & Publisher The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany Tel.: +49 (0)421 24100 24 Fax: +49 (0)421 168 2799 Mobil: +49 (0)173 214 9805 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.metbase.de <http://www.metbase.de/> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von Mike > Jensen > Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Mai 2007 16:27 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ad Unusual Meteor Crater stock sale > > > Hi All > I wanted to offer out a really unusual piece of Meteor Crater history. > I have a stock certificate from Meteor Crater Arizona. I know some of > you think you know quite a bit about these stocks. But my guess is > most of you have never seen this one. > Everybody is familiar with the Orange and Blue "Meteor Crater > Exploration and Mining Company" stocks. They are actually quite common > when compared to this completely separate company. > Now for a little history. Most people know that Barringer started > drilling in 1905 in the bottom of the crater. Of course he was looking > for the "main mass" of the meteorite. At this time he used mostly his > own money. When he ran out of money he then persuaded the US Smelting, > Refining and Mining Company to do some drilling on the top of the > south rim of the crater. He realized that the meteor came in at an > angle from the north so it would be under the south rim. > Early in 1920 USSR & MC were given a 4 year lease by Barringer with > the requirement > that they spend at least $75,000 on the project. They actually spent > $175,000 trying to find the mass! One of their drill holes struck > something that was quite hard. It locked up the drill bit to the point > that it had to be abandoned. Then, finally, in Nov. 1922 they packed > up and left never to return. > Here is where the stock portion of the story comes into play. The USSR > & MC issued stock in 1920 and 1921 for the Crater Mining Company. I > have only seen 5 different stocks in over 10 years of searching for > them. They appear to be issued in numerical order. All are issued to > the parent company except for the first one which is issued to the > president of the parent company, P E Coyle. The numbers of these > stocks are 1, 14, 16, 19, and 20. > It was not until May 1926 that Barringer formed a separate company > known as the Meteor Crater Exploration and Mining Company. These are > the stocks that everyone is so familiar with. In fact a guy was > selling photo copies of both types on Ebay for quite some time. Most > of these stocks are for one share (original price $100.00 /share) for > the preferred > stock and were sold to individuals. They also were required to buy > another share of the common stock($1.00 /share) as well. That > is why it > is not uncommon to find them as a set from the same individual. That > is another reason there are so many more of the MCE & MC > stocks. But more > importantly most were sold to individuals in 1 to 2 share increments. > > I will be offering two of these original and very rare Crater Mining > Company stocks for sale. I will offer the first one at a lower price > and the second one at a much higher > price. So if you are at all interested in a stock please let me know > ASAP. Please email me for prices and images. > > So don't miss your chance to own a piece of this incredible original > Meteor Crater historical document. I am selling these two stocks #16 > (Nov. 8, 1920) & > #20 (Apr 23, 1921). Both have been folded in 1/3 as was common for > this era. They also have tiny pinholes (staple?) in the upper left > corner. Stock #16 is very clean while #20 has an ink smudge in the > lower right corner. Please email me for images and a price quote. > > -- > Mike > -- > Mike Jensen > Jensen Meteorites > 16730 E Ada PL > Aurora, CO 80017-3137 > 303-337-4361 > IMCA 4264 > website: www.jensenmeteorites.com > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nulles (Spain) meteorite
Hi Pierre-Marie, I think Nulles was first reported here: ESCOSURA L. DE LA (1852) Análisis del aerolito que cayó en las immediaciones del pueblo de Nulles de la provincia de Tarragona en 5de noviembre de 1851. Rev. minera, met. y ing. Madrid 3, 246-247, 407-410. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von Pelé > Pierre-Marie > Gesendet: Sonntag, 11. März 2007 15:42 > An: MeteoriteList > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Nulles (Spain) meteorite > > > Hello, > > I'm desperately searching for information about the > trajectory and strewnfield of the Nulles meteorite > which fell in 1851 in Spain. > > Does anyone have detailed information, old publication > about this ? > > The only reference I found is "Lithologia meteorica" > from Profesor Joaquin Balcells, Barcelona, 1854 > > Many thanks, > > Pierre-Marie Pele > www.meteor-center.com > > > > > > > __ > _ > Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes > vos questions ! > Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences > des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses > http://fr.answers.yahoo.com > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New book on the history of meteoritics
Hello List Members, There is a brand new book published by the Geological Society of London. Details can be found on the Society's homepage: http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=bookshop_details&action=details&id=725 I have just received my copy and can warmly recommend it to those interested in the history of meteoritics and museum collections. Especially the chaper by Ursula Marvin (the prominent expert on the history of meteoritics) is very readable. There is one little drawback: with PST 95.00 the list price is quite high. I could obtain my copy at the Zürich MetSoc Meeting at a special rate (30% off list price) and there may be a chance also for you to get this rate. I still have the special rate order form and could provide a copy to those seriously interested in this special publication. Best regards, Jörn Koblitz Here the details: The History of Meteoritics and Key Meteorite Collections, edited by G J H McCall, A J Bowden and R J Howarth (July 2006) This Special Publication has 24 papers with an international authorship, and is prefaced by an introductory overview which presents highlights in the field. The first section covers the acceptance by science of the reality of the falls of rock and metal from the sky, an account that takes the reader from BCE (before common era) to the nineteenth century. The second section details some of the world's most important collections in museums - their origins and development. The Smithsonian chapter also covers the astonishingly numerous finds in the cold desert of Antarctica by American search parties. There are also contributions covering the finds by Japanese parties in the Yamato mountains and the equally remarkable discoveries in the hot deserts of Australia, North Africa, Oman and the USA. The other seven chapters take the reader through the revolution in scientific research on meteoritics in the later part of the twentieth century, including terrestrial impact cratering and extraordinary showers of glass from the sky; tektites, now known to be Earth-impact-sourced. Finally, the short epilogue looks to the future. The History of Meteoritics and Key Meteorite Collections should appeal to historians of science, meteoriticists, geologists, astronomers, curators and the general reader with an interest in science. Contents: The history of meteoritics - overview, G J H McCall, A J Bowden and R J Howarth * Meteorites in history: an overview from the Renaissance to the 20 century, U B Marvin * The meteorite fall at l'Aigle and the Biot report: exploring the cradle of meteoritics, M Gounelle * The end of classical meteorology, c. 1800, V Jankovic * Understanding the nature of meteorites: the experimental work of Gabriel-Auguste Daubrée, R J Howarth * History of the meteorite collection of the Natural History Museum of Vienna, F Brandstätter * History of the meteorite collection at the Museum für Naturkunde, Berlin, A Greshake * A history of the meteorite collection at the Natural History Museum, London, S Russell and M M Grady * The meteorite collection of the National Museum of Natural History in Paris, France, C L V Caillet Komorowski * A brief history of the Vatican meteorite collection, G Consolmagno * History of the meteorite collection of the Russian Academy of Sciences, M A Ivanova and M A Nazarov * Meteorites and the Smithsonian Institution, R S Clarke, H Plotkin and T J McCoy * History of the American Museum of Natural History meteorite collection, D S Ebel * The history of Japanese Antarctic meteorites, H Kojima * The Western Australian Museum meteorite collection, A W R Bevan * Desert meteorites: a history, A W R Bevan * Chondrules and calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions (CAIs), G J H McCall * The history of meteorite age determinations, J R de Laeter * Meteorite provenance and the asteroid connection, A J Bowden * The history of research on meteorites from Mars, M M Grady * Metorites and the origin of the solar system, S G Brush * Meteorite cratering: Hooke, Gilbert, Barringer and beyond, G J H McCall * The history of tektites, G J H McCall * Epilogue, G J H McCall, A J Bowden, J A Wood and U B Marvin __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there?
Dear Alex, Thank you for the flowers. It's really a great honor to have received this first Service Award of the Meteoritical Society at the MetSoc 2006 Meeting in Zurich. The MetBase 8.0 release should be ready in a few months from now, hopefully End of October. It's correct that the Bulletin is not yet ready and am impatiently wating for it, too. Best wishes and have a nice vacation (meteorite hunting?) Jörn / MetBase -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Alexander Seidel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. August 2006 11:47 An: Jörn Koblitz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there? Hi Jörn, first of all sincere congrats to you for winning the Meteoritical Society Service Prize 2006 - truly deserved for what you have achieved in the field of meteoritics as one of the few first really dedicated "early modern times" [..i.e. pre-internet, since the early Eighties :-)] private collectors of meteorites, as a long-time member of the NomCom of MetSoc, as the owner of one of the biggest private collections of meteorite literature worldwide, and, last but surely not least, as the author of MetBase. Regarding MetBase, could you please let us all know when V8.0 will be about due for release? There have been rumours about plans of re-organizing the release schedule of the meteorite bulletins from the Society, but since I unfortunately had no chance to attend this years meeting in Zurich I don´t have any further details on this. Could you add a little more..?? Alex ...on vacation, out of Berlin/Germany > Hello Tim, > > There are 62 hexahedrites known to date. Please notice that not all IIAB > irons are hexahedrites (many are coarsest octahedrites, Ogg) and that not > all hexahedrites are IIAB irons (there are a few hexahedrites of taxonomic > group IIG known). > > Regards, > Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von > AstronomicalResearchNetwork > Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. August 2006 02:20 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there? > > > The Meteoritical online data base said > 110 records found for meteorites with types that are exactly "IIAB" > Ken > Astronomical Research Network > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 6:45 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there? > > > > Hello Tim; > > > > The catalogue of meteorites lists 80 IIAB meteorites.Hope this helps. > > > > > > Best Regards;Herman. > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there?
Hello Tim, There are 62 hexahedrites known to date. Please notice that not all IIAB irons are hexahedrites (many are coarsest octahedrites, Ogg) and that not all hexahedrites are IIAB irons (there are a few hexahedrites of taxonomic group IIG known). Regards, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von AstronomicalResearchNetwork Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. August 2006 02:20 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there? The Meteoritical online data base said 110 records found for meteorites with types that are exactly "IIAB" Ken Astronomical Research Network - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] How many Hexahedrites are there? > Hello Tim; > > The catalogue of meteorites lists 80 IIAB meteorites.Hope this helps. > > > Best Regards;Herman. > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Wolf Creek total mass
Hello Bernd, There is (presently) no online version of MetBase which Matteo mentions in his post. His information is derived from Jeff Grossman's Meteoritical Bulletin database (see link below). London NHM as well as MetBase don't give a the TKW for Wolf(e) Creek. So, I don't know where the 25,4 kg comes from. However, the total mass listed in (public) collections is 755 kg and represents almost entirely oxidized material (iron shale). Jörn / MetBase http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sea=Wolf+Creek&sfor=names&ants=&falls=&stype=contains&lrec=50&map=ge&browse=&country=All&srt=name&categ=All&mblist=All&pnt=no&code=24326 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von M come Meteorite Meteorites Gesendet: Freitag, 10. März 2006 09:22 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Wolf Creek total mass Hello another question on total mass: Wolf Creek. In metbase online say its only 25.4 kg. ( Wow, I have a main mass in collection ) Killgore say unknown, Catalogue of Meteorites Unknown, meteorite A to Z 999 kg. You what say? Matteo M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ ___ Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB http://mail.yahoo.it __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Collections in MetBase
Hello Mike, You are welcome to send me your collection details. There is no firm criteria as to whether a collection is included in MetBase or not. Naturally, private collections are by far more "dynamic" than institutional. This often causes problems to keep the information up-to-date. I usually don't consider meteorites with total specimen weight less than 1 grams, except for very rare types or low TKWs. Less than 20% of all (700+) collections listed in MetBase are private. This is not surprising, since many private collectors don't publish catalogs or inventory lists or at least don't want to have their collection data disclosed. Further, public repositories holding just a single meteorite (the main mass) are always named in the Meteoritical Bulletins (a prime source of information), whereas private possessors are often undisclosed. Best regards, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von Mike Fowler Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. März 2006 01:13 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Mike Fowler Betreff: [meteorite-list] Collections in MetBase Alex, Thanks for taking the time to post re my question. I realize that I could have emailed Joern Koblitz myself for the answer, but I figured there would be many besides myself who would probably be curious to know the answer. Mike > > In February David Weir wrote about the MetBase Library and how his > > > collection is included in it. > > I was wondering how many private collections are included in MetBase > > and how big it has to be, to be included? > > > The person to answer this with more competence than me is the author > of MetBase himself, Joern Koblitz (koblitz at microfab.de). He > probably > is a member of this list and will let you know all the facts in more > detail than I can do here. > > But for the sake of a quick late night (local time) answer from > Europe: there is no lower limit for a private collection to be > included, in fact there are many "collections" with only 1 meteorite > in "them" :-). Then again, in my last version of the program I count > 236 entries with 10 or more meteorites in the collection, and a new > version seems to be at the doorstep. Joern will add to this, when > he reads it. > > As I said in one of my earlier mails, these private collection data > represent nothing but a snapshot in space and time, which is obvious > since we live in an ever changing world - and collector X´s collection > data provided for publication in say 2002 will most probably have > changed by now. But nonetheless you will at least have sort of a good > overview here, and postal addresses of the collectors are included, > which is a value by itself. > > > What are the criteria for being included, and how do you get a > > collection included? > > Just contact Joern at koblitz at microfab.de, and (afaik) sending your > collection summary (meteorite names and weights) will be all that is > needed to get an entry with the next update. > > Alex > Berlin/Germany > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Nogata
The National Science Museum in Tokyo. Nogata was analyzed by M.Shima and type specimens and thin section are reposited there. References: Petrography, mineralogy, and chemical composition, M.Shima et al., Meteoritics, 1980, 15, p.365 (abs.). Description, analysis, olivine Fa25.1, 19.45% total Fe, M.Shima et al., Meteoritics, 1983, 18, p.87. Jörn Koblitz / MetBase -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von M come Meteorite Meteorites Gesendet: Freitag, 3. März 2006 12:46 An: ZZ ML Meteorite-List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Nogata hello One question, who is have the unique Nogata piece take for the analysis? London? In the catalogue is not write... Matteo M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ ___ Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB http://mail.yahoo.it __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Pultusk total mass
Dear Listees, I think Alexander made the point clear. The repository information in MetBase is based on catalogs and inventory lists of about 700 private and public meteorite collections in the MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences. I try to keep the information as up-to-date as possible. However, it can never represent the state of all collections at a certain time as publication dates of these catalogs and inventory lists vary. I invite everybody to send me her/his meteorite collection list and I will be happy to add the data to MetBase. Best wishes, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von Alexander Seidel Gesendet: Montag, 20. Februar 2006 22:46 An: M come Meteorite Meteorites Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pultusk total mass Regarding my recent post about MetBase 7.1 data on Pultusk one must always be aware of the fact and keep in mind that the collection data presented there are nothing but a mere "snapshot in space and time", and very transitory as time goes by, and very probably even insufficient even at the time the release was made. Certain fixed collection data at a certain time, no more no less, which does not make it less valuable in the end for getting sort of an "overview". You can´t have more details of the spreading among collectors for a widely available specimen, like Pultusk is, at any given time, you can only make educated guesses, and re Pultusk these will very (!) definitely increase the 250 kg figure stated in MetBase right now. Some time ago Zelimir (Prof Gabelica), our well-known and very dear collector friend from France, who is the organizer of the annual meteorite show in Ensisheim (the very best one in Europe btw, besides Munich!!) asked the collector community for feedback about the private distribution of the Ensisheim meteorite. I wonder if he ever reached any conclusive and reliable result with this... :-) Zelimir? Alex Berlin/Germany > in my collection I have a 370 gr. frag. with crust and > a 8 gr. slice. For example in the list its not present > the Milan museum have some samples from 200 grams to > 50 grams > > Matteo > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: > > > Matteo wrote (a scritto): > > > > "we have to calculate the many pieces in the private > > collections." > > > > Right! I own 11 grams of Pultusk. It's a polished > > end section with > > fresh, velvet black fusion crust and extremely > > abundant FeNi flakes > > that I purchased from David New in 1993 (January > > 1993 sales list). > > > > Here is David's unmistakable comment from his sales > > list: > > > > "Choice highly polished light to dark gray end > > sections with rich > > metallic inclusions and excellent fresh black > > fusion crust." > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Bernd > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato > Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it > Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info > MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com > EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ > > > > > > > ___ > Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB > http://mail.yahoo.it > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AW: MetBase Website online
Dear List Members, I would like to invite you to visit the new MetBase website at URL: http://www.metbase.de/ Comments and suggestions are very welcomed. You are of course allowed and welcomed to place a link to my website on your home page. For those who love bibliophile books on meteorites: also have a look at the following page: http://www.metbase.de/aboutus/library/index.html Best regards, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] 100 year old meteorite story from Sweden
I think he was talking about the fossil meteorites Brunflo, Osterplana and others found in Sweden rather than fossils in meteorites. Look here: http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Mar04/fossilMeteorites.html Best regards, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von chris > aubeck > Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. September 2005 15:30 > An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] 100 year old meteorite story from Sweden > > > Hi, > > Last year, on September 21st, I received a reply on this list from > Göran Axelsson which ended, enigmatically: > > "As a sidenote there were a meteorite found in sweden almost 100 years > ago with fossiles in it. Anyone want to debunk that one? > > :-) > > /Göran" > > > I was seriously interested in seeing a copy of the original article, > but unfortunately Mr. Axelsson didn't reply. Can anyone tell me > anything about it? This is exactly what I collect and study. > > Best wishes, > > Chris > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Another Ebay fraud?
Hello Darren and Pete Pete, Au is one of the standard elements for iron taxonomy. Pd is difficult to measure using INAA, but rather simple using ICP-MS methods. There are indeed numerous publications dealing with the analyis of Au and Pd among other (mainly siderophile) elements in iron meteorites, but what I have never seen, is an analysis of Pr (praseodymium) in an iron meteorite. This is a highly lithophile element and detection even of traces in an iron meteorite should be very difficult. To my opinion this is a fraud. This sphere rather looks like some terrestrial ore. No Widmanstätten pattern visible, which is quite common for a IIICD (now IAB-sLM) group member. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von Pete > Pete > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. August 2005 12:45 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Another Ebay fraud? > > > Hi, all, > Hi, Darren, > > I know there are huge volumes of papers on meteorite > composition, but I > don't recall reading any that refer to trace elements of gold and/or > palladium in any meteorite... > > That said, I admit most of my reading is of the Antarctic Meteorite > Newsletter, and I'm relatively new with meteorites, so when > the pros get > online this will be an interesting education for me, too. > > Cheers, > Pete > > > From: Darren Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: > Subject: [meteorite-list] Another Ebay fraud? > Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:39:57 -0400 > > This can't possibly be the real thing, can it? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5021584192 > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - July 26, 2005
Hello Moni, > What a great piece and the flow lines are great! Indeed, this is a unique meteorite. It also got the lowest Ge content of any known iron meteorite. > Does it look very porous though? It is not porous at all, but got well developed regmaglypts and a black fusion crust. > Why is it, weathering? It is an observed fall and was recovered short after. No weathering at all. > Pictures would be great! The attached picture shows an unetched slice cut from the lower "flat" part of the main mass as depicted by Cohen. Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von moni > waiblinger-seabridge > Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Juli 2005 16:05 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the > Day - July > 26,2005 > > > Hi Martin, Michael and list, > > What a great piece and the flow lines are great! > Does it look very porous though? > Why is it, weathering? > Pictures would be great! > > Sternengruss, Moni > > >From: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Martin Altmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of > the Day - July > >26,2005 > >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:50:44 +0200 > > > >N'Goureyma gives the impression to me to be a perfect copy > of Dronino en > >miniature. > >Has exact the same inclusions, also in similar distributon, > but on a minor > >scale. > >I remember Vassiliev/Karl had some small slices in Ensisheim. > >Any pictures available? > > > >Buckleboo, > >just back. > > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - July 15, 2005
This is the Armanty (synonym: Xinjiang) iron. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von M > come Meteorite Meteorites > Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Juli 2005 12:04 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the > Day - July > 15,2005 > > > I not have understand the name of this meteorite > > Matteo > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: > > > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/July15.html > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato > Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it > Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info > MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com > EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ > > > > > > > ___ > Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB > http://mail.yahoo.it > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the Randsburg California Iron
The silicate inclusions in CD have been extensively studied, especially those of the 3100kg El Taco mass, which was split into large sections at Max-Planck-Institute, Mainz, 30 years ago. They are of "Odessa" type and not really special (T.E.Bunch et al., Contr. Miner. Petrol., 1970, 25, p.297). The composition is: olivine Fa3.9, orthopyroxene Fs6.0 (F.Wlotzka and E.Jarosewich, Smithson. Contrib. Earth Sci., 1977, (19), p.104). Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von > Meteoryt.net > Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 10:33 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the Randsburg California > Iron > > > > Matteo, > > > > Please do not judge all people by your standards. Let the > scientists do > > their jobs. Since when have Winonaite inclusions been > found in Campos? > > Since when has the Campo bandwidth doubled? Please do not > cheapen this > > meteorite with unfounded comments and I will continue to > provide data as > it > > becomes available. > > Me again. > Anyone know what kind of material is all this Campo silicate > inclusions ? > It is something speciall or just the same as in other irons > > -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- > http://www.Meteoryt.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.PolandMET.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535 195 > [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the Randsburg California Iron
Hello Adam, I am far from judging on your new iron whether it is paired or not, but silicate inclusions (better: silicate/graphite assemblages) are rather common in Campo del Cielo. The average kamacite bandwidth is 3 mm, but as usual for coarse to coarsest octahedrites, it varies a lot. What you see and what you get also depends on how the iron was cut relative to the crystal plane. As you say, one has to wait for the chemical analysis. Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von Adam > Hupe > Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 09:35 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the Randsburg California > Iron > > > Matteo, > > Please do not judge all people by your standards. Let the > scientists do > their jobs. Since when have Winonaite inclusions been found > in Campos? > Since when has the Campo bandwidth doubled? Please do not > cheapen this > meteorite with unfounded comments and I will continue to > provide data as it > becomes available. > > Regards, > > > Adam Hupe > The Hupe Collection > Team LunarRock > IMCA 2185 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - Original Message - > From: "M come Meteorite Meteorites" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the Randsburg > California Iron > > > > is not the first time a meteorite is passed for a new > > meteorite and after the analysis is confirmed is a > > Campo del Cielo or other meteorite pairedI repeat, > > the patterns its 100% the same of a campo del cielo, > > strange this meteorite have silicated, type a Campo > > del Cielo > > > > Matteo > > > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto: > > > > > > > Matteo, > > > > > > What an insult! The only thing this meteorite has in > > > common with a Campo is > > > that it is a coarse octahedrite iron meteorite, a > > > very well represented type > > > of iron. I was more concerned that it might be a > > > transported Canyon Diablo > > > at first but it looks completely different with a > > > much courser pattern, even > > > of greater bandwidth than that of a Campo. The good > > > people who offered this > > > meteorite have a perfect reputation, are not even > > > known for selling > > > meteorites and their story is verifiable. Just > > > because some meteorite > > > dealers we all know are willing to pull a > > > bait-and-switch and fake > > > provenance doesn't mean honest folks will. On top > > > of that, not a single > > > flake of iron shale fell off of this meteorite even > > > after being transported > > > half way across the US. The weathering is more like > > > that of a dry desert > > > than that of a swampy Campo field find. > > > > > > If in doubt, check it out! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Adam Hupe > > > The Hupe Collection > > > Team LunarRock > > > IMCA 2185 > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "M come Meteorite Meteorites" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Some Images of the > > > Randsburg California Iron > > > > > > > > > > The patterns are many similar to Campo del Cielo > > > > slices I have sale years ago...are you sure this > > > is > > > > real a new iron meteorite and not a Campo del > > > Cielo > > > > pass for another meteorite? > > > > > > > > Matteo > > > > > > > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha > > > scritto: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > > > > > > > > For those who are interested, I finally got > > > around > > > > > to cutting the 40 pound > > > > > iron meteorite that sat in the Randsburg Rock > > > Shop > > > > > for nearly four decades > > > > > after being found in the Little Lake area lava > > > beds. > > > > > We took two cuts before > > > > > it completely detoothed two bandsaw blades. The > > > > > blades become immediately > > > > > worthless when they hit a weird somewhat > > > symmetrical > > > > > silicated area. You can > > > > > see the large odd crystal shaped silicated area > > > in > > > > > the second image. You > > > > > can also see where it pushed the band aside and > > > > > created a groove. I have > > > > > since received another blade I ordered last week > > > in > > > > > hopes of finishing the > > > > > third and final cut. > > > > > > > > > > Image of meteorite being cut: > > > > > http://themeteoritesite.com/RandsburgCut.jpg > > > > > > > > > > Close-up showing silicated area: > > > > > > > > http://themeteoritesite.com/RandsburgCutCloseup.jpg > > > > > > > > > > An overly done first etch showing a course > > > pattern: > > > > > http://themeteoritesite.com/RandsburgEtch.jpg > > > > > > > > > > My guess is that this will be another coarse > > > > > octahedrite, possib
AW: [meteorite-list] How I (mis)treated my Brahin
Hello Göran, > I bought a Brahin slice about eight months ago. When I got it it was already > rusty even though it was sealed. The rust were everywhere under the lacquer > and had even seeped through and stained the paper it was wrapped in. If the specimen prepared this way wasn't well dried before coating with lacquer, it will worsen the situation as water gets trapped within the cracks and can form a perfect acidic mini-environment for fast corrosion, especially if salts are present. BTW: Be careful with electrochemical cleaning as any rust present will be converted or dissolved. This may course olivines falling off the specimen. You may have to fix the olivines with an (alkaline-stable) resin. Its tricky. The best is to do such things BEFORE a meteorite has started to disintegrate. Best wishes and good luck, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Auftrag von Göran > Axelsson > Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Juni 2005 13:26 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] How I (mis)treated my Brahin > > > I bought a Brahin slice about eight months ago. When I got it > it was already > rusty even though it was sealed. The rust were everywhere > under the lacquer > and had even seeped through and stained the paper it was wrapped in. > It was also broken in three pieces in the freight. > > The seller told me it wasn't rusty when he sent it. It was > hard to belive > but I let it rest and thought it was what you had to pay to learn. > > What to do? Well, I stripped the lacquer on a test piece by > sanding it. Then > I polished it again by hand (in isopropylic alcohol) and > dried it in the > oven > at 70 degrees celsius for a couple of hours. > It's now been without any protection on a shelf for over six > months, handled > by hand (showin it to friends and at the club) and doesn't > have a trace of > rust yet. It's just a 20g piece so I'm using it to see how > sensitive it is. > > The bigger piece was stripped of the lacquer by CRC sealant stripper! > It worked a lot faster than sanding it down. Then I gave it a > quick polish > and it too haven't had any problem. > > I use isopropylic alcohol before I cut meteorites as I have > access to a > rock saw with water based coolant. It goes into the pores and stops > the water to go deep into it, it's so much easier to dry it > afterwards. > > So far it's been working for me, but your mileage may vary. > > To form rust you need two things, oxygen and a media for the wet > chemistry process to work in. If you could take away one part of > the equation you could stop the rust forming. > So either an inert atmosphere (nitrogen, carbon dioxide, neon... ), > vacuum or absence of water will protect a specimen. > > The problem is to remove the water if there is any iron chloride > salts present. That will work as a dessicator, drawing the humidity > from the air and creating a perfect environment for rusting. > The chloride irons also add to the process as a catalyst. > My next step is to try to treat a piece of Brahin electrolytically > to draw out the chloride. I'll come back later to report how it went. > > I do also belive in the preservation of Brahin is possible with > the right treatment. I'm not giving up on this yet. > > Now I'm off to a mineral fair i Kopparberg. No, no Ensisheim for > me, it's too far away. > > /Göran > > Jim Strope wrote: > > > I agree with Matteo. You get what you pay for. Esquel, Imilac, > > Albin, Glorietta, and a few others are investment quality > pallasites. > > > > Brahin, Brenham and Admire have always had a bad reputation > in general > > although there are some speicmens that have lasted for > years with no > > traces of rust. I do believe that Brahin CAN survive with > the proper > > cutting and preparation, however. > > > > Jim Strope > > 421 Fourth Street > > Glen Dale, WV 26038 > > > > http://www.catchafallingstar.com > > > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim
Dear Vincent, > Then, I put it in a Tupperware full with isopropilic alcohol... This was certainly the wrong way, because: alcohol (ethanol as well as isopropanol) is quite hygroscopic, i.e. it will absorb a lot of water. Even if you seal the plastic bag, it does not work as humidity will diffuse through the wall. At the end, you have worsen it as it doesn't make a big difference whether you put it in pure water or in a mixture of water and alcohol. Alcohol is only good for pulling off liquid water from a specimen after it has been dipped in water. Even then, the specimen has to be dried in an oven to get the remaining humidity off. My advice: always store known rusters under desiccant. Best is to use silica geel with color indicator (cobalt) so you see when its time to change it. If the storage box isn't really hermetic (.e.g plastic boxes), you have to change and re-generate the desiccant quite often. Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: vincent stelluti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Juni 2005 15:34 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim > > > Hello Koblitz, > > I bought the slice in June 2002, > > In august 2002, the slice starts to fell apart. > > Then, I put it in a Tupperware full with isopropilic alcohol > at 99,9% and I > sealed the Tupperware in a plastic bag. I was waiting to > find a solution. > But I forgot it there and I opened the Tupperware last week. > > I found no more alcohol and the Brahin in very bad shape. > > Vincent > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "vincent stelluti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:26 AM > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim > > > Hello Vincent, > > A nice slice (before). Although I don't know this dealer, I > would be careful > to blame him on this. Brahin is well known as a heavy ruster. > If you don't > store the material in a very, very dry environment (e.g. Excicator > w/desiccant), noone can really guarantee for a "lifelong" > integrity of such > material (even if some do). However, I must admit that the > slice (after) > isn't in a very good shape indeed. When did you buy the slice? > > Best regards, > Jörn Koblitz > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von > > vincent stelluti > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Juni 2005 14:54 > > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim > > > > > > Hello Brahin Lovers, > > > > I bought a nice (before) Brahin in Ensisheim Show from Neith > > Investment Ltd. > > > > The dealer is from Russia I think. I paid 264 $ for 88 g. > > > > You can see two pictures, before and after here: > > > > > > > > http://www.colvir.net/prof/vincent.stelluti/ > > > > > > > > Somebody knows if Neith Investment is in Ensisheim the > next weekend? > > > > I will go to Ensiheim ... > > > > > > > > Thanks Vincent > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim
Hello Vincent, A nice slice (before). Although I don't know this dealer, I would be careful to blame him on this. Brahin is well known as a heavy ruster. If you don't store the material in a very, very dry environment (e.g. Excicator w/desiccant), noone can really guarantee for a "lifelong" integrity of such material (even if some do). However, I must admit that the slice (after) isn't in a very good shape indeed. When did you buy the slice? Best regards, Jörn Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von > vincent stelluti > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Juni 2005 14:54 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim > > > Hello Brahin Lovers, > > I bought a nice (before) Brahin in Ensisheim Show from Neith > Investment Ltd. > > The dealer is from Russia I think. I paid 264 $ for 88 g. > > You can see two pictures, before and after here: > > > > http://www.colvir.net/prof/vincent.stelluti/ > > > > Somebody knows if Neith Investment is in Ensisheim the next weekend? > > I will go to Ensiheim ... > > > > Thanks Vincent > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Rocks From Space Picture of
Dear Tom and Roman, Unfortunately, it did not land on a marshmallow! Actually, it broke almost parallel to the "brustseite" (front side). It is indeed surprising that these comb fingers survived the impact on the ground. Anyway, it is the best meteorite I ever found in a desert, very fresh, shiny crust, like fallen just a few days before. Best regards, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Tom Knudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Samstag, 19. März 2005 16:12 > An: Roman Jirasek; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Rocks From Space Picture of > the Day - > March19, 2005 > > > ""Dhofar 182, Oman. Found 2000. Classification: breciated > monomic eucrite > (S2/W0)" > What a fabulous specimen! > I have never seen flow lines that actually protruded > out from the meteorite like fingers. Awesome!" > > I agree, what a rock, but what did it do, land on a giant > marshmallow? How > did the protruding flow lines survive landing? > Thanks, Tom > peregrineflier <>< > IMCA 6168 > http://www.frontiernet.net/~peregrineflier/Peregrineflier.htm > http://fstop.proboards24.com/ > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Jirasek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:19 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Re: Rocks From Space Picture of the > Day - March > 19, 2005 > > > > "Dhofar 182, Oman. Found 2000. Classification: breciated > monomic eucrite > > (S2/W0)" > > > > What a fabulous specimen! > > I have never seen flow lines that actually protruded > > out from the meteorite like fingers. Awesome! > > > > Roman Jirasek > > www.meteoritelabels.com > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:08 AM > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the > Day - March > > 19,2005 > > > > > > > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/March19.html > > > > > > __ > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 > > > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Golden Mile meteorite
Hi Pierre-Marie, A single stone, 378.8g in eight, was picked up from a pebble pavement by Ingrid Monrad; listed, with classification and mineral analysis, S.S.Russell et al., Met. Bull. 86, MAPS, 2002, 37 (Suppl.), p.A157. 30 grams is reposited in Tucson, University of Arizona. Classified: H4/S1/W1 Cheers, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Pelé Pierre-Marie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. März 2005 10:01 > An: MeteoriteList > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Golden Mile meteorite > > > Hello to the List, > > I'm searching for the tkw of Golden Mine meteorite > (Arizona) found in 2000 by Twink Monrad. > > Thanks for your help. > > Pierre-Marie PELE > IMCA 3360 > > > > > > > Découvrez nos promotions exclusives "destination de la > Tunisie, du Maroc, des Baléares et la Rép. Dominicaine sur > Yahoo! Voyages : > http://fr.travel.yahoo.com/promotions/mar14.html > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Dho 025 lunar
Hello Bernd, It is well possible that untrapped noble gases are the source of the vesicles. Dhofar 025 is a lunar regolith and so should contain large amounts of solar type noble gases (He-4, Ne-20) due to its long-time exposure to the solar wind. However, it contains only small amounts of solar-type gases, which is an indication of thermal metamorphism due to heavy shock. Other lunar regolith breccia like Y-983885 or QUE 93069 contain noble gases of up to 0.03 ccm/g material. Dhofar is depleted in such gases by two orders of magnitude. Instant outgassing of these gases (which were trapped in the silicates) by an impact event can explain the bubbles. See also: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1502.pdf Cheers, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 21. Februar 2005 13:31 > An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Dho 025 lunar > > > > Anyone have any thoughts regarding the nature > > of the vesicular clasts in the lunar Dho 025? > > > The clasts themselves are a couple of mm across > > and contain numerous little bubbles / vesicles. > > > I was wondering where the vesicles come from, > > what gases were trapped and so on ! > > These melt pockets indicate intense shock after compaction by an > impact event on the Moon. You are probably looking at melt glass > (shock-melted plagioclase, anorthite and maybe silica glass) and > the gases that were trapped are probably noble gases (not sure > with regard to the noble gases). > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] European lost orders
Hello Svend and list, I also faced similar problems with USPS shipments last year. 2 parcels with valuable Weston specimens got lost in August and October last year. The first parcel with 20g Weston was shipped unregistered(!), the second one registered, but uninsured. At first, the US dealer who sold the pieces did not believe me that the meteorites did not arrive. After he did a search query with USPS, he realized that his parcels actually got lost on its way to Germany. The pity is, that I did prepayment by Paypal and have never received any refund from that person. Very bad! I can advice everybody: If you do a prepayment for meteorites, take care that the seller uses the safest way of shipping (best FedEx or UPS) with online tracking possibility. This seller obviously tried to safe money on the wrong side. Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Dr. Svend Buhl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 16:56 > An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] European lost orders > > > Mile, Pierre and others, > > I have lost 2 shipments destined to the US in early and mid > december. The other way round two sendings from the US failed > to reach me in Germany. Particularly lamentable, because on > of the sendings icluded a 19.00g and a 1.50g fragment of the > Norton County Aubrite. (Both have been replaced by the > friendly seller in the meantime). > > In my case only small sized packages disappeared, all sent > with DHL. This in mind one comes to think about the > trustwortiness of the DHL personal, esspecially the > additional personal hired to cover the x-mas peak. > > watch out for meteorite pilferers! > > Svend > > www.niger-meteorite-recon.de > > > > > Pelé Pierre-Marie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb am > 11.02.05 16:03:34: > > Well Mike and list, > > I've the same problem from the other side of the > Atlantic. > > 2 cases from overseas orders (my NWA CDROM for > example) : > - some took more than a month to reach the USA... > (sent 30 december, arrived 4 february !) > - some were lost. (4 out of 10 sent !!!) > > I think there are many thieves in the Post offices so > it's good to pay for a registered mail for high value > parcels. > > Pierre-Marie Pelé > www.meteor-center.com > > > > > > > Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de > stockage pour vos mails ! > Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > __ > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Is Brahin a ruster ?
Hi List, back in the 1980s, I got a large, beautiful Admire slice. I kept it at low humidity and also added corrosion inhibitor to the bag in which the slice was wrapped in. During the first 10 years I checked for signs of rust from time to time. It was okay, no rust, very stable. So, I kept it alone (same storage conditions) until one year ago, when I look at it again. Well, the pallasite was in the state of disintegration, heavily rusted, olivines pressed out of the metal grid. What I want to say is, that even after so long time of stability, one can never be sure. I think, one has to check the state of such a known ruster more often. If any sign of rust, especially swallowing of olivine grains, one has to start corrective actions immediately (e.g. neutralization of acids, drying...). Rusting is a self-accelerating process, once it has started. If a meteorite is known as a ruster (like Brahin, Brenham, Admire), be very careful! I am presently developing a special method of treatment to remove all the salts (the source of the mess) from such corrosion sensitive irons and pallasite specimens. I hope, with such reatment, then these rusters are sufficiently stabilized for the time being. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 7. Februar 2005 23:35 > An: Lars Pedersen; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Is Brahin a ruster ? > > > Hi Lars, > > Brahin is untreated a hefty ruster like Brenham. > With two of the main suppliers of Brahin I made the experience > that Afanasjev (cometshop) did a good job in varnishing his slices. > My oldest slice from him I had for almost 7 years without any problems > and many others I had in stock for 2years and more without > developping a > single trace of rust. > Once I was curios, grinded off the varnish and the slice > started to rust and > to swell within a few weeks. > > >From the other supplier Koutyrev (finmet) I know only, that > he advertized > his slices in former times to be stabilized with a "new > method" and with the > gimmick, that you can keep them even in salt water without any effect. > I never took from his Brahins, but heard from several of my collector > fellows as well as from some dealers too, that they were > indeed stable and > goody-goody. > > To be sure, one should choose a member of the > Eagle-Station-grouplet, with > their 15%+ Ni, they should be the most stable ones among all > pallasites, but > they are difficult to get and not even cheap... > > Cheers! > Martin > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Lars Pedersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:52 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Is Brahin a ruster ? > > > > Hello All > > Thanks for you show reports and poictures, I enjoy them. > > > > I have just traded for a big fullslice of Brahin. > > > > Is it a ruster ? > > How do I prevent ? > > etc. etc. ? > > > > Best > > Lars > > -- > > > > New meteorite forum: > > > > http://www.worldofmeteorites.com/ > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite of Nassirah
Dear Pierre-Marie, There are two articles by Lacroix exclusively on Nassirah published in French bulletins in 1937: 1. La chute de météorites de Nassirah, Nouvelle Calédonie (15. juillet 1936). Bull. soc. franc. minéral., 1937, 60, pp. 226-229. 2. Sur une chute de météorite pierreuse en Nouvelle-Calédonie, le survanue 15. juillet 1936. Compt. rend. acad. sci. Paris, 1937, 204, pp. 625-626. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Pelé Pierre-Marie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Februar 2005 18:02 > An: MeteoriteList > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Meteorite of Nassirah > > > Hello to the List, > > first of all, thanks a lot to all those who gave me > very interesting information about fuel consumption of > SUV in the USA. > > I'm asking to the List some information about a > meteorite fall in 1936 in New Caledonia (Pacific) > called Nassirah. I'm searching for detailed > information about circumstances of fall, press > articles, bibliography, photo... > > Thanks in advance, > > Pierre-Marie Pelé > www.meteor-center.com > > > > > > > Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de > stockage pour vos mails ! > Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Sweaty Fingers, Chlorides, and Chondrites
Dear Stephen, Thank you for your interesting (and important) questions, regarding preservation of chondrites (or more general: stony meteorites). I try to answer them from a scientific point of view: > 1. Can one easily do more than just preventing future assaults from > external moisture and fingerprint chemicals? There are not so many ways. The best way is, just to store them in a dry environment, ideally with relative humidity <40%, better <20%. Use silica gel as desiccant. Important is to change the desiccant from time to time. Don't touch interior parts with bare hands as salt will get on the specimen which will lead to first corrosion. > 2. Will long soaks in anhydrous alcohol help individuals, and polished > slices? It does only help if the specimen got wet before. Then, it can help to quickly pull out the water. Otherwise (with a dry specimen) it can even hurt as alcohol is hygroscopic (it will attrack water from the air humidity). Use alcohol only in combination with a postbake in an oven at about 80 deg. C. DONT DO such things with fresh (observerved falls) carbonaceous chondrites like CMs or CIs. The alcohol will remove pristine organic compounds and the temperature can already alter such meteorites. > 3. Has anyone successfully used Steve Schoener's iron stabilization formula > for individuals and polished > slices of ordinary chondritis (i.e., a mix of water, alcohol, and NaOH)? NEVER use any chemicals, lacquers, solvents, inhibitors, rust removers etc. on (valuable) stony meteorites All such agents will very likely alter the meteorite. Such a treated meteorite is LOST to science!!! And: if such treatments have been done and this is not known to the scientist who will study/analyse such a meteorites in the future, it creates lots of confusion, puzzling question on measurement results and additional investigations and at the end lot of wasted time. So, don't even consider doing such things to stony meteorites - just keep them dry and prevent contamination, including fingerprints, dust, etc.! Best regards, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > 4. Does anybody know of a good online sources where an > average Joe can > purchase anhydrous alcohol? > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Stephen McMann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 20. Dezember 2004 17:37 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Sweaty Fingers, Chlorides, and Chondrites > > > Dear List, > > Over the past few years there has been much discussion about > preserving > irons, but little discussion about rust prevention in > ordinary chondrites. > However, chondrites can of course suffer from the same > problems as irons, > presumably exacerbated by the same culprits (internal > moisture, internal > chlorides, fingerprints from previous owners, etc.). Unfortunately, > chondritis tend to be more complex chemically and so I'm not > certain about > how to deal with these problems in a way that gives display > specimens long, > stable lives. > > Here are some naïve questions: > > 1. Can one easily do more than just preventing future assaults from > external moisture and fingerprint chemicals? > > 2. Will long soaks in anhydrous alcohol help individuals, > and polished > slices? > > 3. Has anyone successfully used Steve Schoener's iron > stabilization formula > for individuals and polished slices of ordinary chondritis > (i.e., a mix of > water, alcohol, and NaOH)? > > 4. Does anybody know of a good online sources where an > average Joe can > purchase anhydrous alcohol? > > Sincerely, > Stephen McMann > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Chiang Khan
Hello Martin and Zelimir, Additionally to what you listed, I could find the following repositories and weights for Chian Khan: 682g: Tucson, Haag Colln. 71g: Kankakee, Illinois, J.Schwade Colln. 67.9g: Zürich, J.Nauber Colln. 44g: Kanagawa, Mus. Nat. Hist. Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Dezember 2004 10:51 > An: Zelimir Gabelica; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Chiang Khan > > > Hi Zelimir, > > The "Catalogue" itself lists: > > 2588.4g UCLA > 224.5gBartoschewitz > 189g New York Nat.Hist. > 106g Washington U.S.Nat.Mus. > 39g Paris Hist.Nat. > 32gDu Pont > 22g + 12.6g + 8.7g London, Nat.Hist. > 18.2g Berlin, Humboldt-Univ. > 14.82g Ottawa, Geol.Surv. > 9g Tempe > 7.7g Chicago, Field Mus. > 5g Albuquerque Univ New Mex > 2.4g Muenster Inst.f.Planetologie > > Not mentioned there is a 2.5kg stone in the Chulalongkorn University, > Bangkok > > Oliver Alge found on his 3 expeditions, which took together > almost 1 year, > altogether 606g > > The material confiscated after the fall from the laotic > military is lost. > > So we have without Haag's pieces already a tkw of ~6.4kg. > > Nevertheless it stays extremely difficult to get > and for heaven's sake I invite the list members again to buy > the remaining > pieces of Oliver, > as he needs the money to found his help project in the > strewnfield of Chiang > Khan, where he plans to move to. > Especially the European members should consider to take their > share on this > rare offer as the USD is weak as never before and the price > with 37$ per > gram is quite low. > > Meanwhile I made new photos of the remaining pieces and will > email them on > request. > Some of the pieces are fresh like a Juancheng and not so > brownish as it > seems on the pictures on Olivers page > http://www.meteorite-oliver.com/index.html > > So if you NEED NEW PHOTOS, please E-mail. > > The smallest cut is sold now, the 6.25g were Bernhard's > specimen and this > week the 41.1g killeroriented was gone too (I send a photo of > the back with > the rollover lip and the only partial molten surface to The > Picture of the > day). > > Remarkably from sice is the complete crusted stone of 70grams, > perhaps I should give it to captain Blood for the Tucson > auction, as here in > Germany most collectors have no glimpse, that they won't get a similar > specimen anymore in their collectors life and the more experienced > collectors in USA seems to fear complications, if they would > order from > another country, although it's fast, safe, easy and simple. > > The 23.2g fragment is the ugliest piece, concerning stainings. > > Extremely nice and fresh are the 12.2g broken individual and the 17.1g > individual, where only a small part is missing, both have > very nice black > fusion crust. > > If they'll be gone, they'll be gone. > > Ask Mike Farmer, what he thinks about this price, I bet he > never would give > away his two little specimens at such a low price. > > May someone ask Rob Haag, wether and how much grams he owns in his > collection? > 100% of the money will be used for the help project and for > that purpose. > > So let's go! > Martin > > - Original Message - > From: "Zelimir Gabelica" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 7:56 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Chiang Khan > > > Bernard, Martin, list, > > With all of our listees I also feel very sorry for Bernhard about the > burglary. > Bernhard, I wish you could rapidly overcome your angriness > and re-positive > again. Positiving is perhaps, in this case, considering that > the good news > is that the other 600 items were ignored by...ignorant burglars. > But life is full of (also) nice surprises. No doubt Stefan > (Ralew) will > soon have some more beauties to propose you. I just remember > his superb > display table in Ensisheim and regret not having found time > to look more > closely at. > > Regarding Chiang Khan, I agree that these are very seldom > seen as offer. > There should be some nice pieces in collections or museums though. > I was lucky to acquire a complete 100% crusted individual of 41 grams > (probably from David New in the 1995's). Considering the mass > existing in > other collections (I remember Haag is mentioning having a considerable > mass) I just wonder whether the TKW as mentioned in catalogs (also in > Meteorites from A to Z), namely only 367 grams (total 31 > pieces recovered), > is correct? > Did someone make a (more recent) compilation or have updated > repositories ? > Bernd ? Jörn ? > > Best wishes, > > Zelimir > > > A 22:44 16/12/04 +0100, vous avez écrit : > >So it would be helpful, whenever someone from the list will > get an offer > for > >Chiang Khan or if he/she detects a piece of Chiang Khan on > ebay to contact > >Bernhard, > >as Ch
AW: [meteorite-list] John's Interesting Iron Meteorite, NWA 2677
Hello John, Mark and Martin, >From the pictures I've seen of this nice iron meteorite, it looks to me like >the kamacite bands are recrystallized. If this is just for the outer part of >the meteorite, it is most likely the feat-affected zone, also called alpha-2 >zone, generated during atmospheric passage of the meteoroid. For very small >irons, this zone can extend some centimeters into the interior, for larger >irons it is just a few millimeter. The deformations of the Widmanstätten >structure is not necessarily coursed by impact on the ground, like for Gibeon, >Sikhote-Alin or Henbury. It can also be pre-terretrial. If the specimen is >well rounded by ablation, I think it is rather a pre-terrestrial damage. Best regards, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Dezember 2004 12:02 > An: MARK BOSTICK; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] John's Interesting Iron Meteorite, NWA > 2677 > > > Intersting to me, that some lamellae in that slice are > somewhat twisted from > mechanical stress > as one can find in many irons of large tkw, which broke up. > Gibeon, Henbury > and of course from most crater builders. > So I would bet, that there are many more specimens still to > be found in > desert > > Martin > > - Original Message - > From: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:23 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] John's Interesting Iron Meteorite, NWA 2677 > > > > Hello John and list, > > > > I recently picked up a small piece of NWA 2677 from John > Birdsell. An > > interesting iron meteorite of 100g. It has been > provisionally classified > as > > a "IIICD (aka: IAB subclass LM).", noted from John's > website. I am not > > really an iron expert, but I guess that means fine octahedrite. The > > meteorite itself is somewhat confusing, as the nickel > content doesn't seen > > to line up well with any of the IIICD's except the Ataxites > I suppose, but > > this has a obvious bold octahedrite pattern. > > > > I managed a pretty good photo of my slice on my collection > page. (I now > have > > studio lights and equipment...which also of course means, > my camera is > > giving me problems now...:-( > > > > http://www.meteoritearticles.com/colnwa2677.html > > > > Also, John asked about possible pairs. Doing a little > research on the > iron > > I have found the following meteorite classified somewhat close and > location > > of find possibly close. Could this be a possible pair? > > > > Hassi-Jekna, IIICD, found El Golea, Algeria in 1890, TKW > 1890, Bandwidth > > .47mm. > > > > Clear Skies, > > Mark Bostick > > www.meteoritearticles.com > > www.kansasmeteoritesociety.com > > www.imca.cc > > > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite finds per state?
Dear Darren, With only 6 reported meteorites for South Carolina (SC), the number is comparably low: For comparison: North Carolina - size 53,821 sq miles / 30 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 1794 sq miles Georgia - size 59,441 sq miles / 23 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 2584 sq miles New Mexico - size 121,598 sq miles / 212 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 574 sq miles ! South Carolna - size 32,007 sq miles / 6 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 5334 sq miles When we just look at observed falls, the situation is a bit different: North Carolina - size 53,821 sq miles / 9 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 5980 sq miles Georgia - size 59,441 sq miles / 4 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 14,860 sq miles New Mexico - size 121,598 sq miles / 5 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 24,320 sq miles South Carolna - size 32,007 sq miles / 2 meteorites = 1 meteorite per 16,004 sq miles So, the number of observed falls is quite comparable to Georgia and even New Mexico, but for North Carolina it is much higher. I guess, it is because of higher population (8.3 Mio for NC compared to 4.1 Mio for SC). It also depend on the landform (e.g. forest vs. agricultural area) differences. Best regards, Jörn / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Darren Garrison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Dezember 2004 14:09 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Meteorite finds per state? > > > I was wondering if there was a list breaking down the number > of recorded meteorite finds per US > state? I was trying to find the number and locations of > finds from my home state of South Carolina, > but I've found little more information than "less than 10". > The only one that seems to be for sale > is fragments of "Bishopville", which happens to be priced > pretty high. Is "less than 10" typical > for a state the size of SC? > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Catalogue of Meteorites?
Dear Jeff, I can (naturally ;-) recommend MetBase to you. It's quite up-to-date. I've just added about 4000 new non-Antarctic and Antarctic meteorites as well as 6000 literature references (bibliography section) to the new version 7.0 to be released end of this year. The price for a licence is 370 EUR plus shipping - a bit more than the British Catalogue, but you can get annual updates at 93 EUR and the database contains much more information (e.g. analysis data, literature, detailed repository information) than the printed version or the CD. However, I like the British "Catalogue of Meteorites" for quick look up - one doesn't have to switch on the PC and - as a book collector - I love books in general! If you like to know more about MetBase I can send you a pdf file with information on its capabilities and database contents. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jeff Kuyken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Dezember 2004 12:46 > An: Meteorite List > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Catalogue of Meteorites? > > > G'day List, > > Just wondering if anyone has heard whether there is any sign of a new > "Catalogue of Meteorites". It is more than 4 years since the > 5th Edition was > published and I can't help but think Meteoritics has taken a > 'Giant Leap' in > that relatively short time. In fact I couldn't even begin to > imagine the > massive undertaking that will be required for the 6th Edition!!! > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kuyken > I.M.C.A. #3085 > www.meteorites.com.au > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Juancheng vs. Taza
Hello Listees, What is your opinion about this Taza specimen also offered on ebay by rozen111: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2292198278&fromMakeTrack=true To me it looks very similar to the "Juancheng" piece also offered by the same dealer http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3239&item=2292198685&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Actually, this doesn't look like Juancheng as poined out by Marcin and Mike earlier. Does anyone have experience with this dealer? Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Michael Farmer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2004 14:39 > An: McomeMeteorite Meteorite; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Its a real Juancheng? > > > NO way jose. I bought some Juancheng recently found, still > black fusion > crust with a lot of oxidation. > This is either not a meteorite, or just an extremely old find. > Mike Farmer > - Original Message - > From: "McomeMeteorite Meteorite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 1:55 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Its a real Juancheng? > > > > > > Take a look this ebay auction > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3239&it em=2292198685&rd=1 > > For me is many strange this juancheng...many many > > Matteo > > _ > Ricerche online più semplici e veloci con MSN Toolbar! > http://toolbar.msn.it/ > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Dronino rusting
Dear Marcin, Interesting results. The oxide shale is removed rather easily, but it will take considerable more time to get the salts out of the deep cracks in the metal portion of the meteorite. I suppose that 12 hrs will not be sufficient for such a thick slice. I had best result after about one week of electrochemical treatment. The good thing with this technique is that one can scale it up and treat numerous specimens at the same time. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Meteoryt.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2004 23:33 > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] RE: Dronino rusting > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 2. the SECOND best solution is to draw the salts out of the cracks by > applying electrolysis using KOH or NaOH solution > (electrochemical cleaning). > This technique is well established and described in detail here: > http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File10a.htm#ELECTROCHEMICAL > > Hello > This is my verry first test of electro-chemical cleaning. > I cleaned cuted specimen of Dronino around 700g. It was > cleaned for 24 hours > in Water+ NaOH solution, but verry good cleaning results I see after > 12hours. > So here is photos. > http://www.meteoryt.net/ebay/dronino_1.jpg > http://www.meteoryt.net/ebay/dronino_2.jpg > > I not use hammer or iron brush on this surface. All rust disapear > > Next object will be oriented Taza > > -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- > http://www.Meteoryt.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.PolandMET.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535 195 > [ Member of: Polish Meteoritical Society ] > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Oriented vs orientated
A google search yielded roughly 15 times as many hits for "oriented" (24.900.000) than for "orientated" (1.480.000). Both are adjectives according to my online dictionary. May be one hint: I found "orientated" only used in the sense of being "focused" (e.g. market-orientated, customer-orientated, also, market-oriented, customer-oriented), but I could not find "orientated" in the sense of something being "physically aligned" (e.g. there is a term "grain-oriented electrical sheet", but not grain-orientated electrical sheet"). I have the impressed that both terms are correct, but that "orientated" simply isn't used very often. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2004 17:45 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Oriented vs orientated > > > > Thanks for all the replies. I think I may have the answer. > > I think it depends on whether or not you are using the > > word as an adjective, noun, or verb. > > Hello Robert and List, > > Here are some further examples from my databases: > > 1) Borkut: "Elliptical chondrules are orientated" (Catalogue > of Meteorites) > > 2) Canyon City: "The individual 50-100 µ wide alpha-grains of > the fields >are differently orientated ..." - BUCHWALD V.F. (1975) Handbook of >Iron Meteorites, Volume 2, pp. 380-381) > > 3) DaG 995: "plagioclase contains small crystallographically > orientated >inclusions of augite (Met.Bull. 87, 2003 July, p. A194) > > 4) El Carmen: "A single, orientated mass weighing 629 g was found ..." >(Meteoritics, 1988, 23, p.171) > > 5) Lone Tree: "An orientated, ... mass of 20.676 kg was ploughed up" >(Catalogue of Meteorites) > > 6) Mount Margaret: "A single, flight orientated stone was found ..." >(Catalogue of Meteorites) > > 7) A. Fujimura, M. Kato et al. (1983) Preferred orientation > of phyllosilicate >(001) in matrix of Murchison meteorite and possible mechanisms of >generating the orientated texture in chondrites. >(Earth Planet. Sci. Lett. 66, 25-32) > > 8) Summerfield: "A single orientated stone of 6.2 kg was found ..." >(Catalogue of Meteorites) > > 9) Waka: "A single, orientated mass weighing 11.875 kg was found ..." >(Met.Bull. 66, Jun 1988, Meteoritics 23-2, 1988, p.173). > > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Preservation of iron meteorite
Dear Taylor, Sorry for my late reply. I'm not online on weekends. > Will this work for iron?... It is working! I have done this in the past with Toluca and Campo del Cielo specimens. The only disadvantage (beside the work involved) of the elecrochemical cleaning is, that present limonitic crusts are removed from the meteorites. I used already sliced specimens. They are quite stable afterwards. Regarding the procedure you desribe: I would not recommend to use salt (NaCl) as it is exacly the chlorine, which you have to remove from the meteorite. It will not work very well this way. Only use NaOH or KOH solutions as given in the procedure (see link http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File10a.htm#ELECTROCHEMICAL). BTW: that's why it is not recommended to use HCl as etchant for iron meteorties. Better use HNO3 in alcohol (nital) I must add that - from a SCIENTIFIC point of view, all the described measures are NOT ideal as they will affect the composition of the meteorite. It is a measure for very common, heavily corrosion sensitive irons or pallasites (e.g. Campo, Brahin, Toluca, Nantan...) For everything else, it is better just to keep the specimens very dry and - if available - add N2 or Ar inert gas. This will prevent rusting, but will not contaminate the meteorite or even attack contained mineral phases. In this sense, use of lacquers, corrosion inhibitors, oils etc. isn't a good measure for scientific valuable meteorites. Cheers, Jörn / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: McCartney Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 26. November 2004 21:10 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Preservation of iron meteorite > > > Jorn, I saw this posted by some coinshooters to clean metal. Will > this work for iron? Haven't tried it. I suspect with some chem > tweaks this may be the best your average collector could build > affordably to treat irons. > > "When building a electrolysis machine to clean metal, a > better transformer to use is an old AT type computer > power supply not a ATX power supply just cut a yellow > and a black wire from one of the four wire plug strip and > attach clips. Yellow is POSITIVE (+), Black is ground. > In a plastic tub mix tap water, a tablespoon of salt per 8 oz > of water, attach yellow lead to a stainless steel piece put in > water on one side of the bucket attach black lead to the > metal find, put in the water on other side of bucket. > Do not let the leads touch each other, turn on the power > and it will bubble give it a little time and the dirt and rust > will come off find and be on the stainless metal. The power > supply does not over heat and cleans faster than small > power supplies " > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list]: Preservation and storage of iron meteorites
Dear Listees, The problem with rusting of very weathered iron meteorites isn't primarily the oxygen, but the air humidity. Rusting is an electrochemical process, which is dramatically enhanced by the presence of salts withing cracks and grain boundaries of the meteorite. The most problematic salts in this sense are chlorides like NaCl, but other salts like nitrates or sulfates will also enhance corrosion. A) There are a number of solutions how to get rusting irons STABLE by removing or converting the incorporated salts: 1. the ULTIMATE (but most difficult and expensive!) way is to apply a hydrogen plasma to the meteorite: In detail: you need a vacuum chamber, a gas bottle of hyrogen, tubing and gas inlet into the chamber, a vacuum pump, an exhaust to pump the hydogen out of the chamber, a microwave magnetron or rf-generator to ignite a plasma. The hydrogen plasma will reduce the iron oxides and the halogens of the salts converted to volatile components (e.g. HCl) which will be pumped off the chamber. The problem with this technique, which was first applied by Vagn Buchwald for the preservation of archological artifacts (e.g. Viking iron swords): it is almost impossible for private collectors to establish! The whole system must be explosion-proof, no presence of oxygen in the chamber, exhaust line to get the hydrogen outward your building, etc. I have done this in the past with rusty Campos and it is working perfectly. These specimens are almost as stable as freshly fallen iron meteorites. The drawback is: all iron oxides present will be converted to metallic iron (black powder)! 2. the SECOND best solution is to draw the salts out of the cracks by applying electrolysis using KOH or NaOH solution (electrochemical cleaning). This technique is well established and described in detail here: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File10a.htm#ELECTROCHEMICAL 3. a not-so-good technique is just to place the specimen in a NaOH or KOH solution, because a) the leaching and convertion of salts in deep cracks is controlled by diffusion processes b) it is incomplete as the halogen ions are not forced out of the cracks into the solution B) The best methods of storing corrosion-sensitive specimens are: 1. The ULTIMATE method, but not very practical for collector who often handle their meteorite specimens, is simply to keep the specimen in concentrated KOH or NaOH solution. It will no more rust as the iron is safely passivated due to the very high pH (alkaline) value. Curious: I have seen an iron specimen (don't recall which meteorite it was) on display in a show room of the Geological Museum in Copenhagen, which was kept in such a solution (I guess, Vagn Buchwald did it!). So, if you have very valuable meteorites, this is an "ultima ratio" to preserve it (man, I should have done it with my Admire slice, 10 years ago - now its fallen apart!) 2. The second best method is to keep all humidity away from the specimen (and if you have, you can put it in nitrogen). For myself, I use a professional dry storage box, in which I place my corrosion-sensitive iron an pallasite specimens. I place commercially available desiccant (with cobalt color indicator) in the storage box which has to be changed (and dried in a microwave oven) from time to time. These measures keep the relative humidity down below 20%, which is more-or-less sufficient to prevent rusting. 3. A not so good - or even harmful - method is to apply a polymer coating on the specimens or to place it in a plastic bag, because neither will prevent the humidity (H2O molecules) from permeating through the usually few microns of polymer. The disaster is that, if corrosion has started, it is accelerated by the increasing humidity and acidity within this "micro environment". This method is only feasible, if you add desiccant to the plastic bag. However, you have to change the desiccant very often. Otherwise, it will have the same effect as without desiccant (see above). Best regards, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jonathan Gore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 26. November 2004 06:45 > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Nice Dronino? > > > Or storing it in oil after the alcohol/NaOH bath? > > JKGwilliam wrote: > > Have any of you who are fighting with rust/decay problems > with Dronino > > tried storing with desiccant in an airtight container after > treating > > with the alcohol/NaOH bath? > > > > I can remember Steve Shoner telling the list about using the > > alcohol/NaOH solution bath. As best as I can remember, he was the > > developer of this process and had tested it over a long > period of time. > > Two weeks in the bath might not be enough. If the solution becomes > > discolored, put the specimen i
AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Dronino rusting
Dear Listees, The problem with rusting of very weathered iron meteorites isn't primarily the oxygen, but the air humidity. Rusting is an electrochemical process, which is dramatically enhanced by the presence of salts withing cracks and grain boundaries of the meteorite. The most problematic salts in this sense are chlorides like NaCl, but other salts like nitrates or sulfates will also enhance corrosion. A) There are a number of solutions how to get rusting irons STABLE by removing or converting the incorporated salts: 1. the ULTIMATE (but most difficult and expensive!) way is to apply a hydrogen plasma to the meteorite: In detail: you need a vacuum chamber, a gas bottle of hyrogen, tubing and gas inlet into the chamber, a vacuum pump, an exhaust to pump the hydogen out of the chamber, a microwave magnetron or rf-generator to ignite a plasma. The hydrogen plasma will reduce the iron oxides and the halogens of the salts converted to volatile components (e.g. HCl) which will be pumped off the chamber. The problem with this technique, which was first applied by Vagn Buchwald for the preservation of archological artifacts (e.g. Viking iron swords): it is almost impossible for private collectors to establish! The whole system must be explosion-proof, no presence of oxygen in the chamber, exhaust line to get the hydrogen outward your building, etc. I have done this in the past with rusty Campos and it is working perfectly. These specimens are almost as stable as freshly fallen iron meteorites. The drawback is: all iron oxides present will be converted to metallic iron (black powder)! 2. the SECOND best solution is to draw the salts out of the cracks by applying electrolysis using KOH or NaOH solution (electrochemical cleaning). This technique is well established and described in detail here: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File10a.htm#ELECTROCHEMICAL 3. a not-so-good technique is just to place the specimen in a NaOH or KOH solution, because a) the leaching and convertion of salts in deep cracks is controlled by diffusion processes b) it is incomplete as the halogen ions are not forced out of the cracks into the solution B) The best methods of storing corrosion-sensitive specimens are: 1. The ULTIMATE method, but not very practical for collector who often handle their meteorite specimens, is simply to keep the specimen in concentrated KOH or NaOH solution. It will no more rust as the iron is safely passivated due to the very high pH (alkaline) value. Curious: I have seen an iron specimen (don't recall which meteorite it was) on display in a show room of the Geological Museum in Copenhagen, which was kept in such a solution (I guess, Vagn Buchwald did it!). So, if you have very valuable meteorites, this is an "ultima ratio" to preserve it (man, I should have done it with my Admire slice, 10 years ago - now its fallen apart!) 2. The second best method is to keep all humidity away from the specimen (and if you have, you can put it in nitrogen). For myself, I use a professional dry storage box, in which I place my corrosion-sensitive iron an pallasite specimens. I place commercially available desiccant (with cobalt color indicator) in the storage box which has to be changed (and dried in a microwave oven) from time to time. These measures keep the relative humidity down below 20%, which is more-or-less sufficient to prevent rusting. 3. A not so good - or even harmful - method is to apply a polymer coating on the specimens or to place it in a plastic bag, because neither will prevent the humidity (H2O molecules) from permeating through the usually few microns of polymer. The disaster is that, if corrosion has started, it is accelerated by the increasing humidity and acidity within this "micro environment". This method is only feasible, if you add desiccant to the plastic bag. However, you have to change the desiccant very often. Otherwise, it will have the same effect as without desiccant (see above). Best regards, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jonathan Gore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 26. November 2004 06:45 > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Nice Dronino? > > > Or storing it in oil after the alcohol/NaOH bath? > > JKGwilliam wrote: > > Have any of you who are fighting with rust/decay problems > with Dronino > > tried storing with desiccant in an airtight container after > treating > > with the alcohol/NaOH bath? > > > > I can remember Steve Shoner telling the list about using the > > alcohol/NaOH solution bath. As best as I can remember, he was the > > developer of this process and had tested it over a long > period of time. > > Two weeks in the bath might not be enough. If the solution becomes > > discolored, put the specimen i
AW: [meteorite-list] Dalgety Downs & Hamilton Specimen Distribution?
Hamilton: main mass: Armidale, Univ. of New England 3424g: Sydney, Austr. Mus. 637g: Canberra, Austr. Nat. Univ. 516g: London, Nat. Hist. Mus. 290g: Ottawa, Mus. Geol. Surv. Canada 275g: Tempe, Arizona State Univ. 262g: Albuquerque, Univ. of New Mexico 261g: Melbourne, Nat. Mus. Victoria 201g: Washington, U.S. Nat. Mus. 186g: Helsinki, Geol. Mus. Univ. 70.2g: Algonquin, DuPont Colln. 21.7g: Chicago, Field Mus. Nat. Hist. 9.5g: Tokyo, NIPR 8.6g: Bettlach, T.Stuedi Colln. 7.0g: Münster, Inst. Planet. Univ. 6.8g: Gifhorn, Bartoschewitz Colln. Dalgety Downs: 125kg: Washington, U.S. Nat. Mus. 42kg: Kalgoorlie, West. Austr. School of Mines 21.7kg: New York, Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. 5kg: Perth, West. Austr. Mus. [approx. weight] 1.53kg: London, Nat. Hist. Mus. 912g: Chicago, Field Mus. Nat. Hist. 894g: Moscow, Acad. Sci. 810g: St. Petersburg, Mining Mus. 775g: Minneapolis, Univ. of Minnesota [on loan from USNM] 750g: Sydney, Austr. Mus. 725g: Cambridge, Harvard Univ. 547g: San Ramon, T.Toffoli Colln. 439g: Tempe, Arizona State Univ. 402g: Los Angeles, Univ. of Calif. 381g: Calcutta, Mus. Geol. Surv. India 318g: Montreal, Planetarium 289g: Bonn, Min. Mus. Univ. 232g: Göttingen, Min. Inst. Univ. 217g: Paris, Mus. d'Hist. Nat. 207g: Leiden, Geol. Min. Mus. 157g: Mainz, Max-Planck-Inst. Chemie 156g: Copenhagen, Univ. Geol. Mus. 149g: Helsinki, Geol. Mus. Univ. 135g: Siena, Mus. Naz. Antartide 133g: Belgrade, Nat. Hist. Mus. 121g: Münster, Min. Mus. Univ. 119g: Heidelberg, Max-Planck-Inst. 107g: Kankakee, Illinois, J.Schwade Colln. 106g: Berlin, Mus. Naturk., Humboldt Univ. 97g: Algonquin, DuPont Colln. 63.9g: Köln, Univ. 43g: Tallinn, Geol. Inst. Acad. Sci. 29.6g: Colorado Springs, Tiara Observatory 23.5g: Linz, Obermair Colln. 11.6g: Bettlach, T.Stuedi Colln. 10.3g: Münster, Inst. Planet. Univ. 9.5g: Tokyo, NIPR 8.8g: Gifhorn, Bartoschewitz Colln. 7g: Melbourne, Nat. Mus. Victoria 6.6g: Bologna, Astron. Observatory 6.5g: Oeschgen, Beat Booz Colln. 5.4g: Albuquerque, Univ. of New Mexico Cheers, Jörn /MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jeff Kuyken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. November 2004 10:10 > An: Meteorite List > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Dalgety Downs & Hamilton Specimen > Distribution? > > > G'day, > > If someone knows the distribution of specimens into > collections for the > Australian meteorites; Dalgety Downs & Hamilton, could you > please email the > details off list?! > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kuyken > I.M.C.A. #3085 > www.meteorites.com.au > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Fossils in meteorites / Hahn et al.
Hi Martin and List, yeah, that's really a funny publication: Otto Hahn (not to confuse with the discoverer of nuclear fission, who lived half a century later) prepared two voluminous books (1,2) containing plates of very neat photographs of thin sections (mainly Knyahinya and Borkut). He misinterpreted these chondrules are fossils and found indications for ancient life almost everywhere in the stones he studied (and even in irons!). Very curious! Immediately after the publication, a number of other authors (e.g. C.Vogt (3) strongly opposed against Hahn's findings. Others like Weinland, who described corals and animal remains in meteorites supported him (4,5). 1) O. Hahn (1879) Die Urzelle, nebst dem Beweis, daß Granit, Gneiss, Serpentin, Talk, Sandstein, auch Basalt, endlich Meteorstein und Meteoreisen aus Pflanzen bestehen: die Entwicklungslehre durch Thatsachen neu begründet, Laupp'sche Vertragsbuchhandlung, Tübingen, 71 pp, 30 pls. 2) O. Hahn (1880) Die Meteorite (Chondrite) und ihre Organismen. Laupp'sche Vertragsbuchhandlung, Tübingen, 56 pp, 22 pls. 3) C. Vogt (1882) Sur les prétendus organismes des météorites, Mémoires de l'institut national Genevois 15, 55 pp., 3 pls. 4) D. F. Weinland (1881) Korallen in Meteorsteinen. Das Ausland 54, p.301-303 (Apr.17), 501-508 (Jun.27). 5) D. F. Weinland (1882) Über die in Meteoriten entdeckten Thierreste. G.Fröhmer, Esslingen, 12 pp. Cheers, Jörn / MetBase PS: Above cited publications are in the MetBase library and I can send scanned images to those interested. > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martinh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 18:24 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? > > > Jörn kindly wrote: > > "About 40 years ago, another group around Bartholomew Nagy announced > the recovery of extraterrestrial lifeforms in carbonaceous > chondrites..." > > > Hello again, > > And if one continues further back in time to 1879, Otto Hann > though he > found plant fossils in thin sections of Knyahinya and other > meteorites. > And before that, Carl A. Gumbel searched for organic structures in > carbonaceous chondrites, in particular Cold Bokkeveld and Kaba. > > There is no shortage of important meteorites, and Allende is, > no doubt, > one of the most important stones ever both in shear quantity, > scientific importance, and fall timing. However, we must not > forget the > shoulders upon which we stand. > > Cheers, > > Martin H > > > > > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Fossils in meteorites / Hahn et al.
Hi Martin and List, yeah, that's really a funny publication: Otto Hahn (not to confuse with the discoverer of nuclear fission, who lived half a century later) prepared two voluminous books (1,2) containing plates of very neat photographs of thin sections (mainly Knyahinya and Borkut). He misinterpreted these chondrules are fossils and found indications for ancient life almost everywhere in the stones he studied (and even in irons!). Very curious! Immediately after the publication, a number of other authors (e.g. C.Vogt (3) strongly opposed against Hahn's findings. Others like Weinland, who described corals and animal remains in meteorites supported him (4,5). 1) O. Hahn (1879) Die Urzelle, nebst dem Beweis, daß Granit, Gneiss, Serpentin, Talk, Sandstein, auch Basalt, endlich Meteorstein und Meteoreisen aus Pflanzen bestehen: die Entwicklungslehre durch Thatsachen neu begründet, Laupp'sche Vertragsbuchhandlung, Tübingen, 71 pp, 30 pls. 2) O. Hahn (1880) Die Meteorite (Chondrite) und ihre Organismen. Laupp'sche Vertragsbuchhandlung, Tübingen, 56 pp, 22 pls. 3) C. Vogt (1882) Sur les prétendus organismes des météorites, Mémoires de l'institut national Genevois 15, 55 pp., 3 pls. 4) D. F. Weinland (1881) Korallen in Meteorsteinen. Das Ausland 54, p.301-303 (Apr.17), 501-508 (Jun.27). 5) D. F. Weinland (1882) Über die in Meteoriten entdeckten Thierreste. G.Fröhmer, Esslingen, 12 pp. Cheers, Jörn / MetBase PS: Above cited publications are in the MetBase library and I can send scanned images to those interested. > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martinh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 18:24 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? > > > Jörn kindly wrote: > > "About 40 years ago, another group around Bartholomew Nagy announced > the recovery of extraterrestrial lifeforms in carbonaceous > chondrites..." > > > Hello again, > > And if one continues further back in time to 1879, Otto Hann > though he > found plant fossils in thin sections of Knyahinya and other > meteorites. > And before that, Carl A. Gumbel searched for organic structures in > carbonaceous chondrites, in particular Cold Bokkeveld and Kaba. > > There is no shortage of important meteorites, and Allende is, > no doubt, > one of the most important stones ever both in shear quantity, > scientific importance, and fall timing. However, we must not > forget the > shoulders upon which we stand. > > Cheers, > > Martin H > > > > > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Dear Martin, No one can argue against personal views. ALH 84001 is a very interesting meteorite for sure. But it remains highly subjective and is biased by temporary fashion or even hype. I think, ALH 84001 is a good example for such a hype. A group reports evidence for extraterrestrial life with much public noise (I assume also with the background idea to booster public funding for NASA). There are strong arguments by other research groups against a biogenic origin of these fossil-like features. As far as I know, there majority of scientists currently disapprove. About 40 years ago, another group around Bartholomew Nagy announced the recovery of extraterrestrial lifeforms in carbonaceous chondrites (see e.g. http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/Orgueil.html). There was much hype at that time about these findings and some people for sure would have called Orgueil the most important meteorite in history. For the development of meteoritics and in historical perspective, I still think that CURRENTLY Allende has the by far strongest impact. Some meteoriticists are talking about a "pre-Allende" and a "post-Allende" era. Allende has contributed so much to the our understanding of the origin and development of the solar system. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 14:49 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: Adam Hupe; Walter Branch; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? > > > Jörn kindly wrote: > > > Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? > > > > I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal > > preferences of the collector or scientist, > > but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific > > importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. > > Hi Jörn and All, > > I struggled with this same question in my lastest column in > Meteorite Magazine. I reviewed meteorite books counting the > number of times particular meteorites were referenced in > their historical or scientific context. My focus was on those > meteorites that were instrumental in changing our collective > understanding of meteorites. I narrowed the pool further > based upon significant contributions compared to supporting > contributions. Sure, the list of suspects could be longer, > but I doubt it could be any shorter. > > As for ALH84001, I believe the most important contributions > it has made are that ALH84001: 1) was the focus of a US Presidential p > ress conference, 2) forced us to (yet again) adjust our > collective understanding of evidence of life, and 3) definded > a period of meteorite studies that involved widespread > popular discussion that (my poetic license here) had not been > seen since L'Aigle. > > I did not mention the particular specimens in the article > here. Sorry about that, but that is what purchasing a > subscription is all about > > Meteorite Magazine subscription info @: > > http://www.meteor.co.nz/ > > Cheers, > > Martin H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Hello Adam and Walter, Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal preferences of the collector or scientist, but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. Presently, the score is as following (based on a survey of 76,000 references in MetBase from year 1492 to 2003): Allende: 2121 references Murchison: 1200 references ALH 84001: 478 references Not counted are publications in minor/local journals or newspapers. Considering that Allende and Murchison have a headstart of about 15 years, ALH 84001 will probably close the gap in the coming years. However, this is pure speculation as there are still plenty of studies on Allende and Murchison going on. Best regards, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Adam Hupe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 15. November 2004 22:51 > An: Walter Branch > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > Hi Walter, > > According to some scientists, Maybe so. I personally think > ALH84001 is > probably the most important meteorite ever found. I guess it > depends on how > you view importance. > > All the best, > > Adam > > - Original Message - > From: "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > > Hi Adam, > > > > >NWA 3133 may be the most important > > >meteorite to have been found in 30 years > > > > More important than ALH84001? > > > > -Walter > > > > - > > - Original Message - > > From: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:03 PM > > Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > > > > Several have been asking about NWA 3133. NWA 3133 is > destined to be a > > > famous set of stones exclusive to the Hupe Collection. > NWA 3133 was the > > > very first achondrite to plot on the CV mixing line using > oxygen isotope > > > testing. It has been stated that NWA 3133 may be the > most important > > > meteorite to have been found in 30 years and is destined > to become a > > classic > > > among scientists. There are several abstracts in > progress in regards to > > NWA > > > 3133 and one that is already complete. Here is a link to > the completed > > > abstract: > > > > > > http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm04/fm04-sessions/fm04_P31C.html > > > > > > I have not seen anything formal on any other meteorite > that would cause > me > > > conclude a pairing. Here is the classification submitted > to the NomCom: > > > > > > Northwest Africa 3133 > > > Morocco > > > Purchased 2004 March/August > > > Primitive achondrite (anomalous) > > > Several complete, dense, brown stones (total 2393 g) were > purchased in > > > Tagounite by a Moroccan dealer for A. and G. Hupé (Hupé) > in 2004 March > and > > > August. Classification and mineralogy (T. Bunch and J. > Wittke, NAU; A. > > > Irving and S. Kuehner, UWS): equigranular texture of subhedral to > anhedral > > > grains with ~120° triple junctions; mean grain size = > 0.28 mm. Moderate > > but > > > pervasive weathering (W2) has converted some metal and > troilite to brown > > > iron hydroxides, which also coat grain boundaries. > Mineral mode in > vol.%: > > > olivine 46, orthopyroxene 28, plagioclase 7, Cr-diopside 5, > Na-Mg-bearing > > > merrillite 4, metal (including associated hydroxides) 5, > chromite 3 and > > > troilite 2. Highly equilibrated mineral compositions: > olivine (Fa22.2 > to > > > Fa22.6, FeO/MnO = 57 - 69), orthopyroxene (Fs18.6Wo2.8 to > Fs19.2Wo2.1, > > > FeO/MnO = 38 - 49), diopside (Fs7.3Wo44.6 to Fs8.7Wo42.2, > FeO/MnO = 21 - > > 33, > > > Cr2O3 = 0.56 to 0.82 wt.%, Al2O3 =1.21 to 1.74 wt.%), plagioclase > > > (An50.1Or2.5 to An53.5Or2.3), metal (Ni = 17.4 - 20.2 > wt.%), chromite > > (TiO2 > > > = 2.61 wt.%, Cr/(Cr+Al) = 0.73), troilite (Ni = 1.2 - 5.2 > wt.%). Oxygen > > > isotopes: replicate analyses of an acid-washed whole rock > sample by > laser > > > f
AW: [meteorite-list] Seymchan question
Matteo, Seymchan was first classified as IIE based on metal composition. This classification was revised to "ungrouped" lateron after another analysis was done (see: J.T.Wasson and J.Wang, GCA, 1986, 50, p.725). I assume, all analyses were done of material derived from the 273 kg main mass in Moscow. This piece obviously doesn't show any olivine (at least at the outer visible part). Thus, a classification as a pallasite could not be made as it requires the presence of olivine in shapes and sizes typical for pallasites. If the material which is presently sold as Seymchan is indeed paired with the main mass at Vernadsky Moscow (which is evident), then it must be reclassified from "UNGROUPED IRON" to "pallasite". As it seems that the metal is chemically anomalous with respect to typical main group pallasites, which show composition similar to IIIAB group irons, Seymchan must be regarded an ungrouped pallasite (like e.g. Glorieta Mountain). We will have to wait for new analyses, especially of the silicates, to get a clearer picture of its relationship to other known pallasites. The distribution of olivine in Seymchan much resembles those we know from Glorieta Mountain, another ungrouped pallasite. Some larger pieces of Glorieta lacking any olivine. Best regards, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: McomeMeteorite Meteorite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 8. November 2004 11:39 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Seymchan question > > > > Hello > > One question on Seymchan, its confirm is a pallasite or is a > IIE Iron > The 2 pieces I have its full of olivine - not to paired to > silicated - and > another piece I have in arrive its without olivine, only > iron. Now, its > similar to Brenham where the meteorite have and not have > olivine or is > another type of meteorite? > > Matteo > > _ > Filtri antispamming e antivirus per la tua casella di posta > http://www.msn.it/msn/hotmail > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices
Dear Matt, I don't think there are other areas comparable to North Africa or the Arabian Penninsula with their large plateaus, that are comparably meteorite-rich. There have been search expeditions to e.g. Gobi, Namib or Atacama. All did not really yield big numbers of meteorites. It is not only that plateaus with light soil (typically limestone) are needed. Also the climate (including paleoclimate) must fit. The soil has to be slightly alkaline to prevent the meteoritic iron from fast rusting. To get the meteorite densities required for "pleasant hunting", meteorites have to survive thousands of years on the ground. >From the recent research, I understand that it's not so much the water or humidity, >but rather the absence of acidic soil and salts and the effect of strong wind >ablation (no redeposition of soil and quick drying of the stones after rainfalls) >that makes the difference. Even Australia, which is well searched by meteorite >hunters, never yielded comparable numbers of meteorites. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Matt Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 19:22 > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > All of this is interesting, but not one person has yet to > mention all the > other deserts on this planet that will yield meteorites, and > lots of em. > There are more Morocco's waiting to happen folks! The supply > from the Hot > Deserts may be dwindling, but as more and more nomads in > other countries > become educated and see $, the flood will come again. > <><><><><><><> > Matt Morgan > Mile High Meteorites > http://www.mhmeteorites.com > PO Box 151293 > Lakewood, CO 80215 USA > ebay id: mhmeteorites > - Original Message - > From: "Bernhard Rems" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Martin Altmann'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:08 AM > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. November 2004 18:58 > An: Bernhard Rems; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > And Bernhard, as always, I answer: > > For a serious dealer it does not pays off on the long run to praise > stinky > Campos or boring W4 desert H5s like the Star of India. > Experienced collectors don't appreciate such exaggerations and the > beginners > will soon find out > the overstatements. > > Meteorite market is not Fish Market. > Martin > > > You don't get my point, Martin. It's not praising stinky Campos or > "boring" W4 desert H5's (BTW, the attitude that desert H5's are boring > is something I fully reject), it's about transporting the magic of > meteorites in your text, telling people more than just "I > sell a Campo". > Give them background information, tell them that Campos tend to rust, > but tell them also the history of this find. Tell them how > they can take > care of their pieces, and why even a "stinky Campo" is a piece of > extraterrestrial matter that is something special. > > You don't have to exaggerate to sell. You just have to show that you > appreciate what you are selling. > > Bernhard > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices
Dear Greg, I agree. For dealers, mainly as they have to pay tax, it makes a difference. Classification costs 20g of material plus shipping plus waiting. It probably pays off only for bigger specimens. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Greg Hupe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 20:21 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > Hello Jorn, > > What dealers pay wholesale and what collectors of smaller > specimens pay are > entirely different. If I purchased a stone for $2.00 per gram > and offered it > intact for $3.00 per gram, fine. But, if I wanted to offer > it, classified, > to all collectors, I could not offer it at the $2.00 price, I > would have all > of the associated expenses involved in offering a CLASSIFIED > meteorite. > Therefore, asking $5.00 a gram or more is not unexpected > (just an example, > no known meteorite represented). > > Best regards, > > Greg > > - Original Message - > From: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Bernhard Rems" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 12:03 PM > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > Bernhard: I agree. Could be a scenario for the near future. > > Martin: I think you are correct in your analysis regarding > the Moroccan > dealers. However, I think that they serve mainly the other - > specialized - > meteorite dealers on a wholesale basis. Their presence at > mineral fairs like > Munich is nice and there they will also reach serious > collectors like you, > but I assume that the "big deals" are already done, either in > Morocco or at > the first day, when the mineral show isn't open to the > public. That's what I > was frequently told by other (specialized) dealers. These > "specialized" > meteorite dealer serve the retail market, including eBay. My > impression is > that most medium-rare types like eucrites, howardites, > ureilites are sold > around 10 to 20$/g. Only in few instances - often with larger > pieces - > prices of less than 5$/g are realized. In Munich, I was lucky > to buy a 100g > individual of a howardite (paired with NWA 1929) from a > Moroccan dealer (he > knew what he sold!) for just 2.5 $/g. The same material - a > slice of about 1 > grams just went on ebay for about 20$/g. I always wonder, who > buys at such > price levels. Probably, those, who do not have the chance to > visit mineral > fairs like Munich, Ensisheim or Tucson. > > Jörn > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: Bernhard Rems [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 18:39 > > An: Jörn Koblitz > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > > > > My theory (and I might be wrong): > > > > The number of "occasional" collectors will continue to grow. > > Occasional > > in this regard means that they will try to build a > collection, but are > > limited on the amount of money they WANT to spend on a > piece. I'd say > > 95% of the collectors out there now have a limit of $100-200 of what > > they are willing to pay for a single piece. They will never > buy a 600g > > Brahin or a 5g martian (well, on very rare occasions, maybe). > > > > The "high price market" will grow much slower than this entry level > > segment. It will grow as well, since some of the entry > levellers will > > become passionate collectors. > > > > So the shortage of OC's that could happen soon could have > two effects: > > prices will rise in relation to the "better" meteorites, and > > sold pieces > > will become smaller. > > > > I predict that the boom markets for meteorites will be the > OC markets > > and micromounts of rarer meteorites. > > > > Bernhard > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im > > Auftrag von Jörn > > Koblitz > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. November 2004 18:17 > > An: Greg Hupe; Michael Farmer > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > > Certainly, there are many more ordinary chondrites (OCs) > from the hot > > desert and rare types like achondrite probably make up just > one or two > > percent of it... > > > > ...but, considering the fairly high
AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices
Bernhard: I agree. Could be a scenario for the near future. Martin: I think you are correct in your analysis regarding the Moroccan dealers. However, I think that they serve mainly the other - specialized - meteorite dealers on a wholesale basis. Their presence at mineral fairs like Munich is nice and there they will also reach serious collectors like you, but I assume that the "big deals" are already done, either in Morocco or at the first day, when the mineral show isn't open to the public. That's what I was frequently told by other (specialized) dealers. These "specialized" meteorite dealer serve the retail market, including eBay. My impression is that most medium-rare types like eucrites, howardites, ureilites are sold around 10 to 20$/g. Only in few instances - often with larger pieces - prices of less than 5$/g are realized. In Munich, I was lucky to buy a 100g individual of a howardite (paired with NWA 1929) from a Moroccan dealer (he knew what he sold!) for just 2.5 $/g. The same material - a slice of about 1 grams just went on ebay for about 20$/g. I always wonder, who buys at such price levels. Probably, those, who do not have the chance to visit mineral fairs like Munich, Ensisheim or Tucson. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Bernhard Rems [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 18:39 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > > My theory (and I might be wrong): > > The number of "occasional" collectors will continue to grow. > Occasional > in this regard means that they will try to build a collection, but are > limited on the amount of money they WANT to spend on a piece. I'd say > 95% of the collectors out there now have a limit of $100-200 of what > they are willing to pay for a single piece. They will never buy a 600g > Brahin or a 5g martian (well, on very rare occasions, maybe). > > The "high price market" will grow much slower than this entry level > segment. It will grow as well, since some of the entry levellers will > become passionate collectors. > > So the shortage of OC's that could happen soon could have two effects: > prices will rise in relation to the "better" meteorites, and > sold pieces > will become smaller. > > I predict that the boom markets for meteorites will be the OC markets > and micromounts of rarer meteorites. > > Bernhard > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im > Auftrag von Jörn > Koblitz > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. November 2004 18:17 > An: Greg Hupe; Michael Farmer > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices > > Certainly, there are many more ordinary chondrites (OCs) from the hot > desert and rare types like achondrite probably make up just one or two > percent of it... > > ...but, considering the fairly high prices for the rare types and the > limited spending capacity of this market segment (collectors > as well as > museums/research institutes), my impression is, that OCs are > easily sold > in "tons" at price levels of 50 to 100$/kg, wereas the rare stuff is > being sold on a gram or even milligram scale. > > Wouldn't it take a very long time, to get all the howardites, polymict > eucrites, rumurutiites, martian meteorites (considering alone the TKWs > of DaG 476 or SaU 005 and pairings) hiding in the back rooms > of Moroccan > and non-Moroccan dealers? > > I assume, that the prices for OCs - especially those with > nice shapes or > fairly unweathered interior - will rise soon, whereas most of the rare > types will stay at high level or will even decline. > > Any objections? > > Cheers, > Jörn > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: Greg Hupe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 18:44 > > An: Michael Farmer > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auction meteorites > > > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I concur! The gold rush is already showing signs of ending. > > The Moroccans > > are pulling out their "good" material and acting in a > > feverish, money lust, > > frenzy to get the last buck from those who deal there. > > > > Greg > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "MARK BOSTICK" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:27 AM > > Subj
AW: [meteorite-list] meteorite prices
Certainly, there are many more ordinary chondrites (OCs) from the hot desert and rare types like achondrite probably make up just one or two percent of it... ...but, considering the fairly high prices for the rare types and the limited spending capacity of this market segment (collectors as well as museums/research institutes), my impression is, that OCs are easily sold in "tons" at price levels of 50 to 100$/kg, wereas the rare stuff is being sold on a gram or even milligram scale. Wouldn't it take a very long time, to get all the howardites, polymict eucrites, rumurutiites, martian meteorites (considering alone the TKWs of DaG 476 or SaU 005 and pairings) hiding in the back rooms of Moroccan and non-Moroccan dealers? I assume, that the prices for OCs - especially those with nice shapes or fairly unweathered interior - will rise soon, whereas most of the rare types will stay at high level or will even decline. Any objections? Cheers, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Greg Hupe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 18:44 > An: Michael Farmer > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auction meteorites > > > Hi Mike, > > I concur! The gold rush is already showing signs of ending. > The Moroccans > are pulling out their "good" material and acting in a > feverish, money lust, > frenzy to get the last buck from those who deal there. > > Greg > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "MARK BOSTICK" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auction meteorites > > > > On two expeditions in Oman, we found over 100 meteorites > before finding my > > first achondrite, a rare type of Ureilite. > > Achondrites are rare, the flood from Morocco will soon end. > > Mike Farmer > > - Original Message - > > From: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:19 AM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auction meteorites > > > > > >> Hiho Mark, > >> > >> the region does not make the difference, the finders do! > >> > >> In Antarctica it's the common process, to number each > stone seperately - > >> take a look at the Bulletins, there you'll find rare > types, found in the > >> same place on the same day with different numbers. > >> Sahara in general is different, in Oman never were so much > hunters around > >> as > >> in Libya and the Oman stuff does not end up in Morocco. > >> And the teams in Oman give always all their finds from one > aerea as a > >> bunch > >> in classification, most in the same place. So different > conditions as > >> with > >> the NWA-stuff. > >> Meanwhile a beginning collector must have the impression, that a > >> howardite, > >> a mesosiderite, a CV3 or a olivine diogenite must be > something extremely > >> common, as always when a new one is coming out, in the > months to follow, > >> appears a dozen numbers of the same material. > >> But ask f.e. Afanasjev or Haberer how many ordinary > chondrites you have > >> to > >> hunt down, until you'll find an achondrite! Make some > stats NWA versus > >> Dho, > >> with the latter I suppose you will get different ratios of > rare types to > >> common ones, if you count the numbers as own finds. > >> > >> And of course many of the OCs from Oman are similar > looking as in most > >> cases, they ae very weathered, W3-4. But take a look in > the lists from > >> the > >> Bulletins, where you can see from the date of find and the > coordinates, > >> that > >> mostly a large series of subsequent numbers were found on > the same trip, > >> there you have a wide variety of Ls and Hs with different > Fa and Fs > >> values > >> and weathering degrees. > >> > >> So I think, if it costs the same, Stevey is not wrong to > prefer Dho > >> instead > >> of NWA, as in my eyes, they have a higher collector's > value (and I'm > >> really > >> no fan of desert chondrites, I'm sooo conservative and > collect names). > >> > >> Cheeers! > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 2:38 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auction meteorites > >> > >> > >>> Hello Martin, > >>> > >>> I do not keep a list of paired meteorites or possible > paired meteorites. > >>> > >>> Dhofar is no different then DaG or other like regions. I > have traded > >>> more > >>> in DaG so I could tell you some pairs in it. I have seen > a few tables > >>> of > >>> Dhofar's where you have several H5 or L6's that look a lot alike. > >>> > >>> There have been pairing studies done in DaG, Roosvelt County and > >>> Anartica. > >>> In all of these high collect
AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Ad ebay meteorites
Dear Listees, In the decades around 1900 it was fancy to circulate tables showing the values of meteorites. Henry Ward, for example, prepared such tables and it is interesting and funny to see what was highly priced and what was bargain in those old times. I remember that Angra dos Reis, Lodran and Chassigny were among the most expensive meteorites. Some of these tables are in the library and if somebody is interested I can email scanned images. Regarding the ongoing discussion on Dhofar vs. NWA pairings: to me, the pairing situation with NWA is a bit like it is with some places in Antarctica - hundreds of meteorite pieces were picked up in glacial morains (e.g. Elephant Moraine). I would compare such collections with the "clothes baskets" of Moroccan dealers filled with all kinds of meteorite fragments. Meteorites which fell on Antactic ice travelled large distances within the ice and ended up in a moraine nearby the Transantactic Mountains. The difference to NWA is that Antarctic meteorites are curated by just a few research institutes that take care about classification and pairing. Best wishes, Jörn Koblitz / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. November 2004 15:44 > An: Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Ad ebay meteorites > > > Yes, and? > > If they list the prices on their sites - then this are the > prices which I'm > interesting. > If I'll go to an anticariat, there I may also get discounts > on the prices on > the labels. > If you buy a used car, gosh, the seller will think, that > you're not right in > brain, if you won't to try to haggle. > Go to a stamp or coin auctions - there are never paid the > prices given in > the catalogue. > > Such a list is good for orientation. If one has a 100% superoriented, > crusted specimen, one will tend to ask or to pay higher > prices than the > average, if one has a 3 pounder, one will ask less and so on. > The best clue for that the time I spent in compiling the lists was not > wasted was, that the trade offers I got or I made, when I was > the little > Martin, even more unknown as now, fitted exactly to the given > average price > from my list and all parnters were content. > > Miau, > says my cat. > Martin > > > - Original Message - > From: "Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Martin Altmann'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 3:29 PM > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] RE: Ad ebay meteorites > > > You forgot something, Martin: A lot of these dealers offer SUBSTANTIAL > rebates if you ask for them :-) > > In so far the prices on the sites tend to be higher than they are. > > _ > > Best regards, > Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems > > CEO RPGDot Network > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: AW: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait until youhaveread that :-)
Dear Eric, A good question which I don't have an answer to. In terms of orbital evolution and probabilities to be catched up the larger solar system bodies, I do not se a reason, why iron meteoroids shall survive longer than stony meteoroids. May be, the differences in CRE ages are a result of cosmic-ray shielding effects. Does someone else has a good idea to explain these differences? Cheers, Jörn / MetBase > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Oktober 2004 20:06 > An: Jörn Koblitz; almitt; Bernhard Rems > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait > until youhaveread that :-) > > > of differentiated > bodies, the question is: > where is all the crust gone? Why don't we have many more (at > least 92) different > types of achondrites in our meteorite collections?> > > From Mittlefehldt et al, chapter 4 p4-15 "Planetary > Materials" Reviews in Mineralogy Vol 36 > > "cosmic ray exposure ages of iron meteorites are typically in > the range of 200 to 1000 Ma, some 5 to 50 times longer than > typical for stony meteorites. Tight clusters in exposure > ages for groups IIIAB and IVA suggest discrete breakup events > for their parent bodies 650 +/- 75 and 420 +/- 70 Ma ago, > respectively (Voshage and Feldmann 1979). No other clusters > have been observed. The highest 41K/40K exposure age > measured for an iron meteorite is 2.3 Ga, or half the age of > the solar system, for the ungrouped Deep Springs iron." > > The longest CRE exposure age I know of for a non-iron is > Soko-Banja at 71.1 Ma although there may be others I don't > know of. This does exclude lunars which do have CRE ages of > up to a billion years. > So if the non-irons are swept clean in 100,000 years or > less and the irons hang around for a up to a billion or more > that would explain why we see more variety in iron parent bodies. > > -- > Eric Olson > ELKK Meteorites > http://www.star-bits.com > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait until youhaveread that :-)
Just a little correction: of course, there are iron meteorites which come from
differentiated parent bodies (so called magmatic group). IIIAB is such a group.
If all ungrouped iron meteorites are derived from the cores of differentiated bodies,
the question is:
where is all the crust gone? Why don't we have many more (at least 92) different types
of achondrites in our meteorite collections? If it was possible to break up the parent
bodies down to the metal core, and to deliver samples of these cores down to earth as
iron meteorites, there should also be a lot of the mantle and surface material of
these parent bodies found its way to earth and into collections. There seems do be a
considerable imbalance between known types of achondrite and irons.
Jörn / MetBase
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Jörn Koblitz
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Oktober 2004 17:44
> An: almitt; Bernhard Rems
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait until
> youhaveread that :-)
>
>
> Dear Al and Bernhard,
>
> It's true that, beside the 12 distinct chemical groups, we
> have about 80 ungrouped iron meteorites which - following the
> existing models of asteroid formation and differentiation
> ("core formation") - must be derived from 80 different parent
> bodies (PBs).
>
> As Gero Kurat (Naturhistorisches Museum Wien) has pointed out
> in a recent paper (see ref below), this is quite strange, as
> there are only a "hand full" of parent bodies known for stony
> and stony-iron meteorites. He, therefore, has come up with a
> very interesting - and I think striking - alternative
> explanation for the formation of the PBs: that they have
> never formed by liquid-phase differentiation, but rather by
> carbonyl decomposition reaction and CVD growth of large
> monocrystals of FeNi austenite. This process could explain
> some properties that do not fit into the liquid-phase
> differentiation model (e.g. primordial noble gas contents).
> He also argues, that smelting and solidification processes
> can - even at low cooling rates -
> hardly explain the large size of observed FeNi single crystal
> grains, structure and composition of silicate and
> intermetallic phases as well as the absence of dendritic
> structures in the known iron meteorites. To my opinion, Gero
> Kurat's model can become an sound theory of planetesimal
> formation in the solar system which expains the large number
> of ungrouped and chemically exotic iron meteorites.
>
> Jörn / MetBase
>
> Reference:
> Gero Kurat (2003) Why iron meteorites cannot be samples of
> planetesimal smelting. In: Papers presented to the
> INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM Evolution of Solar System Materials:
> A New Perspective from Antarctic Meteorites, held at the
> National Institute of Polar Research, Tokyo, September 3 - 5,
> 2003. (Abstract #35)
>
> Unfortunately, there is no online link to the abstract, but I
> can send a scanned image of this abstract to those who are interested.
>
> See also: http://presolar.wustl.edu/ref/LPSC2003_SanJuan.pdf
>
>
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: almitt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Oktober 2004 03:36
> > An: Bernhard Rems
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions?
> Wait until
> > you haveread that :-)
> >
> >
> > Hi Bernhard and all,
> >
> > Bernhard Rems wrote:
> >
> >
> > 4) Iron meteorites originate from the core of a large and destroyed
> > planetoid.
> >
> > Furthermore - there must have been at least two bodies of that size
> > (because planetoids do not explode, they have to collide to
> eject core
> > material into the solar system. Is this assumption right or wrong?
> >
> > AL says:-)
> >
> > O.K. one other comment from me then I'll give people a brake.
> > Most of the
> > Iron meteorites come from 12 distinct parent bodies (based
> on chemical
> > classification). We then have an additional 80 some anomalous
> > that provide us
> > with the remainder of our iron meteorites. Some 86% of all
> > iron meteorites
> > belong to the 12 main groups.
> >
> > As McSween says the core of the problem, is iron meteorites
> > have pretty plain
> > spectra and light coming from them (albedo) is poor. Also
> > iron meteorites
> > represent a highly differentiated body one that has been
> > heated (of course)
> > and altered doing a resetting of the isotopes that might help
> > us shed light
> >
AW: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait until you haveread that :-)
Dear Al and Bernhard,
It's true that, beside the 12 distinct chemical groups, we have about 80 ungrouped
iron meteorites which - following the existing models of asteroid formation and
differentiation ("core formation") - must be derived from 80 different parent bodies
(PBs).
As Gero Kurat (Naturhistorisches Museum Wien) has pointed out in a recent paper (see
ref below), this is quite strange, as there are only a "hand full" of parent bodies
known for stony and stony-iron meteorites. He, therefore, has come up with a very
interesting - and I think striking - alternative explanation for the formation of the
PBs: that they have never formed by liquid-phase differentiation, but rather by
carbonyl decomposition reaction and CVD growth of large monocrystals of FeNi
austenite. This process could explain some properties that do not fit into the
liquid-phase differentiation model (e.g. primordial noble gas contents). He also
argues, that smelting and solidification processes can - even at low cooling rates -
hardly explain the large size of observed FeNi single crystal grains, structure and
composition of silicate and intermetallic phases as well as the absence of dendritic
structures in the known iron meteorites. To my opinion, Gero Kurat's model can become
an sound theory of planetesimal formation in the solar system which expains the large
number of ungrouped and chemically exotic iron meteorites.
Jörn / MetBase
Reference:
Gero Kurat (2003) Why iron meteorites cannot be samples of planetesimal smelting. In:
Papers presented to the INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM Evolution of Solar System Materials: A
New Perspective from Antarctic Meteorites, held at the National Institute of Polar
Research, Tokyo, September 3 - 5, 2003. (Abstract #35)
Unfortunately, there is no online link to the abstract, but I can send a scanned image
of this abstract to those who are interested.
See also: http://presolar.wustl.edu/ref/LPSC2003_SanJuan.pdf
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: almitt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Oktober 2004 03:36
> An: Bernhard Rems
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] There are no silly questions? Wait until
> you haveread that :-)
>
>
> Hi Bernhard and all,
>
> Bernhard Rems wrote:
>
>
> 4) Iron meteorites originate from the core of a large and destroyed
> planetoid.
>
> Furthermore - there must have been at least two bodies of that size
> (because planetoids do not explode, they have to collide to eject core
> material into the solar system. Is this assumption right or wrong?
>
> AL says:-)
>
> O.K. one other comment from me then I'll give people a brake.
> Most of the
> Iron meteorites come from 12 distinct parent bodies (based on chemical
> classification). We then have an additional 80 some anomalous
> that provide us
> with the remainder of our iron meteorites. Some 86% of all
> iron meteorites
> belong to the 12 main groups.
>
> As McSween says the core of the problem, is iron meteorites
> have pretty plain
> spectra and light coming from them (albedo) is poor. Also
> iron meteorites
> represent a highly differentiated body one that has been
> heated (of course)
> and altered doing a resetting of the isotopes that might help
> us shed light
> on their origin. Silicates we find in iron meteorites
> sometimes help us out a
> bit with this.
>
> --AL Mitterling
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
__
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AW: [meteorite-list] Re: Michael Cottingham
Hello List, Does anyone have the current phone number of Michael Cottingham (Silver City, NM)? The one I have (505-535-2307) seems not to be valid. Please email me off-list. Thank you. Jörn __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out
Remember the distinction between meteorites from densely populated areas (like Dhofar, NWA, Dar al Gani) and the rest of the world. There is a clear distinction set forth by the NomCom of which procedures for naming and calculating TKWs is applicable. There have been numerous postings to this list to explain this procedure, recently e.g. by Jeff Grossman. Cheers, Jörn Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mark ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. September 2004 18:02 > An: Meteorite List > Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > > Yeah, there are quite a few anomalies in the whole system... > > > If the name or number given to a fall is only for the > specimens given in > for analysis, how come falls like sikhote have a total known weight of > many tons? Surley only a few kilo's where officially used for the > classification, so if we are being strict, the total known > weight should > really be the 'total classified weight', should it not? > > Best > > > Mark Ford > > > > -Original Message- > From: JKG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 23 September 2004 16:53 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-List (E-mail) > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > This is an interesting point. The word "known" implies that > up to this > point this is what we know exists. History has shown that addition > specimens of meteorites with previously published TNWs have > been found > which changes the TNW. But remember, in the case of NWAs, the > Meteoritical > Society has invoked a specific set of rules for a meteorite to be > properly > recognized. Maybe it's time for the rule makers to revisit > this issue. > > Best, > > JKG > > At 08:35 AM 9/23/2004, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >Hi Bernhard and list, > > > >Something else to bear in mind (although it may be trivial) when you > refer > >to the TKW of say NWA1929 (or any other classified NWA). The > weight is > >actually the total weight not total known weight as the name NWA1929 > refers > >to the rock Mike had classified and no other. TKW infers there may be > other > >unknown/undiscovered mass. This cannot be possible. > > > >Regards > > > >Ken > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > >Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems > >Sent: 23 September 2004 16:19 > >To: 'Michael Farmer' > >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > > > >Michael (and others who have written to me in private), > > > >it's not making me sick that it's about money, it makes me sick that > >people do not stick to the rules (even dealers I trust don't stick to > >the simple rules anymore). > > > >Let me tell you this: I recently bought a somewhat larger > slice of NWA > >2019 from a respected dealer. I knew the TKW, I accepted the > price and > I > >expected that the piece I buy is from this TKW. > > > >It seems now that the NWA 2019 I bought isn't NWA 2019, but > >"unclassified material that might quite possibly be paired to NWA > 2019". > > > >Now, if this discussion wouldn't take place, I would believe > I have so > >and so much from the TKW of NWA 2019. I would possibly > resell it in the > >future as NWA 2019, adding to the confusion and unknowingly betraying > my > >business partner. > > > >So, to all dealers out there: if you sell a meteorite as Meteorite A > and > >it is just something that is possibly paired to A, I FEEL RIPPED OFF! > >And I don't like that feeling. > > > >Adam, what hav you done about the NWA 1110 auctions and the olivine > >diogenite you declared to be fake? > > > >What does the IMCA have to say about this matter? > > > > _ > > > >Best regards, > >Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems > > > >CEO RPGDot Network > > > > > >This outgoing mail has been virus-checked. > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >Michael Farmer > >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:58 PM > >To: Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems > >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > >Bernhard, don't do that. I also have felt that way, but love for the >
AW: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out
Calcalong Creek is a striking example indeed. Also, consider the existent overlapping strewnfields of some Omani lunar meteorites. And if one takes into account, that EVERY single meteorite fragment collected in Antarctica (ANSMET) - even in the case that it physically fits together with others - gets its unique designation, it is just reasonable to follow the NomCom rules here. Jörn Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: JKG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. September 2004 17:43 > An: Michael Farmer; Jim Strope; Meteorite List > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > Think about it folks, Calcalong Creek could be sitting in someone's > collection with a Millbillillie label on it. Fortunately, > Haag noticed a > bit of a difference between it and the other meteorites he > purchased in > Australia. > > During the NWA number debate of last week or so, I agreed > with Adam. Now I > agree with Mike. The meteorites of NWA come with several > problems that are > unique as Mike has stated. We.somebodyneeds to do > something to > standardize the process and procedure that NWA's must go > through to be > legitimized. Mike is correct - there appears to be a double standard > here. Anyone got some ideas on how to solve the problem? > > JKG > > At 08:10 AM 9/23/2004, Michael Farmer wrote: > >Yes Jim, it wasn't pretty. > >The part about falls and finds was discussed. There is no > need to classify > >every piece of those meteorites like Gao or Sikhote-Alin as > they are from a > >compact area, and are distinctive enough to lack the need for further > >classification. > > When it comes to meteorite mass-concentration areas > like North Africa > >and Oman, then the need for further classification is > necessary. Obviously > >if you are hunting and find them all together, that would be > one meteorite, > >but when buying in the markets there, then everything is > mixed up, some > >paired meteorites being sold in cities 400 miles apart! That > makes for some > >very confusing classification problems. > >Mike Farmer > >- Original Message - > >From: "Jim Strope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:05 AM > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > > > > > You should have been in Denver, Mike. You would have > been shocked to see > > > how much uncut "NWA 1929" was being sold at low prices. > > > > > > I am glad that I wasn't on the list the last month to > witness the fighting > > > over numbers. Perhaps, each newly found Sikhote-alin > should have it's own > > > new name assigned Or the new Glorietta? Or the > new Campo? ETC. > >ETC. > > > ETC. > > > > > > Jim Strope > > > 421 Fourth Street > > > Glen Dale, WV 26038 > > > > > > http://www.catchafallingstar.com > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Rob Wesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:45 AM > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sale - Howardite Blow Out > > > > > > > > > > This one confuses me. > > > > We had a large fight and discussion just last week, > where the Hupes and > >Dr > > > > Jeff Grossman said that pairings must be made > scientifically and when > >the > > > > nomenclature committee denote a number for a meteorite, > it is for that > > > > meteorite that the number is reserved, no others. > > > > NWA 1929 was my meteorite, and it was a single individual. > > > > I had it classified by Dr Bunch. > > > > It now seems that people are selling other meteorites > under my number, > > > > including the Hupes? How is this possible? Complete > individuals? Then > >they > > > > have not been cut. > > > > Why the double standard? How does anyone know these > uncut meteorites are > > > NWA > > > > 1929? Why were they all suddenly found a year after I > bought NWA 1929 in > > > > Morocco? > > > > I am a little confused about this, if other meteorites > can not be paired > > > as > > > > stated by the Hupe
AW: [meteorite-list] Seymchan Pallasite
Hello Mark and List, here is an extract from MetBase on Seymchan: --- A mass of 272.3kg was found in the bed of a stream flowing into the river Hekandue, a tributary of the Jasachnaja, a second mass of 51kg was later found at a distance of 20 m from the first one, Met. Bull. 42, 43, Meteoritics, 1970, 5, p.97; see also, A.L.Graham et al., Cat. Met., 1985, p.323. The coordinates are of the town of Seymchan. Find circumstances, V.I.Tsvetkov, Meteoritika, 1969, 29, p.152. Illustrated description, with an analysis, 9.47% Ni, O.A.Kirova and M.I.Dyakonova, Meteoritika, 1972, 31, p.104. Further analysis, 9.15% Ni, 24.6 ppm Ga, 68.3 ppm Ge, 0.55 ppm Ir, E.R.D.Scott and J.T.Wasson, GCA, 1976, 40, p.103. Further INAA data, previously classified into the IIE group, but now designated ungrouped based on the chemical composition, J.T.Wasson and J.Wang, GCA, 1986, 50, p.725. Another analysis, A.N.Krot et al., Meteoritics, 1992, 27, p.465. Nitrogen isotopic composition, R.L.Palma et al., LPSC, 1997, 28, p.1057 (abs.); see also, K.Marti et al., MAPS, 1997, 32, p.A84 (abs.); K.J.Mathew et al., GCA, 2000, 64, p.545. --- Acording to the more recent analysis by Wasson and Chang (1986), the metal of Seymchan is ungrouped, thus cannot be related to - at least - the main-group pallasites (e.g. Brenham, Esquel, Imilac) which are genetically linked to IIIAB irons. So, may be we have a new kind of pallasite here (exotic like e.g. Eagle Station)! On the other hand, rounded silicate inclusions are commonly found in IIE irons like Miles, Elga, or Kodaikanal. Thus, it is well possible to mix such silicated irons up with pallasites and Seymchan is actually an ungrouped silicated iron. Best regards, Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mark ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 20. September 2004 10:54 > An: Meteorite List > Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Seymchan Pallasite > > > > Hi, > > Anyone got a link to any classification details for this seymchan > pallasite? > > Looks quite interesting, very sharp Olivine pieces > > Best > Mark > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] metal-rich diogenite vs mesosiderite-C
Dear All, It seems, there is a problem with the class C mesosiderites and the metal-rich diogenites, which may just be fragments of the same meteorite shower. In the last Met. Bulletin 88, the following classifications and remarks are given: NWA 1982: an ungrouped achondrite "not paired with NWA 1827 or NWA 1879 mesosiderite" NWA 1827: mesosiderite (tentatively classified C) "resembles a metal-rich diogenite... [but is] part of a large, heterogeneous mesosiderite containing sparse eucritic and diogenitic clasts" In the abstract by T. E. Bunch et al. (2003) MAPS 39, no. 8 (Suppl.), p.A19, which is the same MAPS issue with the Bulletin 88, the authors conclude that NWA 1827 and NWA 1982 are paired and that they "could be misidentified as "metal-rich diogenite." So, at least for NWA 1982, we have a clear ambiguity between these two references. Best regards, Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: David Weir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. September 2004 20:03 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] metal-rich diogenite vs mesosiderite-C > > > John, > > According to the scientists at NAU (Wittke, Bunch), this is a > metal-rich > diogenite and not a meso. Check out their nice website: > > http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wittke/Microprobe/Probe.html > > Click on "NAU Meteorite Classifications" and then on the diogenite > section and scroll to the bottom to read the official > classification. My > website also has some information on this unique diogenite. > > David > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Mazapil meteorite
Dear Svend, MetBase records the following repositories and weights of Mazapil specimens: 3545g: Vienna, Naturhist. Mus. [main mass] 127g: Mexico City, Inst. Geol. [incl. 112g of 'Chichimeguilas'] 95.4g: Lvov, Min. Mus. Univ. 83g: New York, Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. 19.0g: Chicago, Field Mus. Nat. Hist. 17.3g: Berlin, Mus. Naturk., Humboldt Univ. 14g: London, Nat. Hist. Mus. According to this, nothing in private hand. Best regards, Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Dr. Svend Buhl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. September 2004 13:12 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Mazapil meteorite > > > Dear Listees, > > I?m currently trying to track a piece of the Mazapil Iron. > It?s a medium octaedrite that fell on 27th November 1885 at > Zacatecas, Mexico. TKW was 4 kg. > > It was the same night that the Andromedid meteor shower > underwent a spectacular outburst. The simultaneity of these > two events has driven speculation ever since that the > meteorite was a fragment from Periodic Comet Biela, the > parent comet of the Andromedid shower. However, refering to > Meteoritics & Planetary Science 37 (2002) the occurrence of > the two events was purely coincidental. > > So far I know that ANMH has some material. Does anyone know > if this is the main mass? And is there any material of > Mazapil in private hands that I can purchase or trade. Any > hints are appreciated. > > Thanks for your help > > Svend > > NigerMeteoriteRecon > www.niger-meteorite-recon.de > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > IMCA 6540 > > > > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! > Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Enough is Enough, Now NWA 1877
Regarding the different procedure for e.g. NWA / Gao-Guenie - this issue was addressed in an email by Jeff Grossman dated Sept. 9, 2004 (see below). Gao-Guenie can be treated like Allende or Holbrook in this context as it doesn't apply to areas of dense meteorite concentration. Cheers, Jörn EMAIL BY JEFF GROSSMAN - 09.09.2004 -- The official policy of the Meteoritical Society, as determined by its Nomenclature Committee, is that the name NWA 1110 only refers to the material described under that name in Meteoritical Bulletin no. 86, which has a total weight of 118 g. No other material should be called by that name. It is acceptable and routine, however, for people to make statements indicating that various numbered stones may be paired (although I would be cautious about believing such statements unless they appear in the Bulletin or other scientific publications). All new NWA stones, even if apparently paired with something else, must get their own numbers. This is the rule that applies to meteorites collected in areas of dense meteorite concentration, including all of those known as NWA. Note that this is NOT the same rule that applies if you find another piece of Holbrook or Allende... those would inherit the same name unless they could be proven to be separate meteorites. The Committee is considering a new rule that would allow a new NWA stone to be paired with NWA 1110. Under this rule, the new stone would have to be given a provisional NWA number of its own, NWA . It would have to be characterized by an expert, who would have to submit the evidence for pairing to the NomCom. If accepted, and if the type specimen requirement based on the aggregate mass has been satisfied, we would announce that NWA was paired with NWA 1110, thereby increasing the TKW by a certain amount. NWA would become an official synonym for NWA 1110. This rule has not yet been adopted (it was open for public comment in the early summer). jeff > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Meteoryt.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 13. September 2004 12:35 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Enough is Enough, Now NWA 1877 > > > Hello List > I can understand that when someone classyfy 200g as NWA4000 then other > samples above this 200g can be or not the same material. > But where is border beetween meteorites that can be sell without > classification under "similar" NWA numbers and other, than > can't be sold > using NWA numbers that someone "own" ?? > > If I CAN'T use NWA1110 and NWA1877 then maybe someone can > explaine me why I > CAN sell H chondrites from Burkina as Gao-Guenie without > classification > every kilo for example and noone screaming that Im Thief and > sell untested > material ? Where is the "owner" of Gao-Guenie name ? Why he is not > screeaming ? > Why noone screaming that Bob CANT sell his black peas as > Amgala, becouse > Ambala is a NWA number from Dr No with TKW 15kg and amgala from Bob is > material not include in this 15kg? > Or maybe this working only for meteorites 100$/g and more and > everything > below this price is not worth to write long letters? Or only > this is only > law for Hupes meteorites ? Only > > > If we have any rules then why they fit only to rare meteorites and for > example I can sell ANYTHING as Nwa869 and noone will say > anything ? Ofcourse > there is also another case. Its a confidence and honesty of > every dealer. > For example me, If I know that THIS IS Gao then I sell it as Gao. > > We have a good proverb in poland: > If noone know what is the matter, then matter is money > > PS. This email is not against Hupes. I like You guys. > > -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- > http://www.Meteoryt.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.PolandMET.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535 195 > [ Member of: Polish Meteoritical Society ] > > > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite with holes?!?
Hi Jeff, I think, it's weathered out - better "washed out" - matrix material, which has also removed some larger chondrules. Some ordinary chondrites - like Bjurböle or Saratov - got very soft and powdery matrix material. Chondrules can easily be removed from these meteorites. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jeff Kuyken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. August 2004 13:51 > An: Meteorite List > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite with holes?!? > > > Hey Graham, > > That's a really good point which I also considered too > however the stone is > no less solid than most other ordinary chondrites out there. > The holes are > also too varied in size and often of an irregular nature to > be the result of > dislodged chondrules. Quite a few are also more of an oval shape too. > Apologies as that's probably a little hard to see in the > photos. If they are > vesicles, I don't know how they could have formed. Maybe the > stone was part > of a larger impact melt? > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kuyken > I.M.C.A. #3085 > www.meteorites.com.au > - Original Message - > From: Graham Christensen > To: Meteorite List > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 9:10 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite with holes?!? > > > It looks to me like the holes are just where chondrules > have fallen out of > the matrix. From what I understand, vesicles form by gas > being "boiled > out" > of liquid rock. That's why they've only been found in a > eucrite, because > it's an igneous rock. It's wierd that that is the only one > that looks like > that though. Perhaps a loose matrix or something? > > ~ > Graham Christensen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.geocities.com/aerolitehunter > msn messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jeff Kuyken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:03 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite with holes?!? > > > > G'day List, > > > > Just received what looks like an ordinary chondrite, but > the weird thing > is > > that it is loaded with holes in the surface. The 37g > piece has 6 sides > of > > which every one has some type of hole. They are quite prolific > throughout > > the whole stone and vary widely in size. I've created a > quick page at > the > > address below if anyone is interested in taking a look. I > will probably > > slice it at some stage to check out the interior and will > post more > photos > > at that stage. I'd be interested in hearing any comments > or theories on > this > > one as this is the first meteorite I've personally seen > with so many > holes. > > > > http://www.meteoritesaustralia.com/features/holes.html > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jeff Kuyken > > I.M.C.A. #3085 > > www.meteorites.com.au > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Dronino
Hi list,
When I looked at the Dronino pictures with the etched surface, I instantly thought of
Tishomingo, which is a high-Ni iron with martensite, a low-temperature shock-induced
lattice transformation phase out of taenite, well known for terrestrial steel - but in
Tishomingo much better developed. The problem is that Dronino got much lower Ni
content than Tishomingo, which makes it difficult to explain martensitic
transformation, if the meteoroid did not experienced some violent and rather exotic
thermal and shock history. On the other hand, a martensite could explain the finiding
by Marcin, that his pieces doesn't show any pattern. Martensite transformation of
supercooled taenite can be triggered by shock waves running through the body. So, it
may only be locally present (somehow like the shock darkening of some ordinary
chondrites)!
The description given in the Meteoritical Bulletin ("the Dronino iron is an ataxite
containing sulfide inclusions (~10 vol.%) and consisting of kamacite (7.0±0.5 wt% Ni
and 0.75 wt% Co) and rare taenite (26.5±0.5 wt% Ni and 0.35 wt% Co) as elongated
precipitates (1-3 ?m in size) which form linear and banded textures...") also rises a
question: how can taentite PECIPITATES from kamacite? Usually, it is the other side
round: kamacite precipitates from taenite (the high-temperature phase of iron) when
the meteorite parent body slowely cooled down. The precipitated kamacite grow from
tiny lamellae to larger bands and the taenite lamellae found in such irons are just
remains of the originally monocrystalline taenite body.
Best regards,
Jörn
___
Joern Koblitz
MetBase Editor
The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences
Benquestrasse 27
D-28209 Bremen, Germany
phone: +49 421 24 100 24
fax: +49 421 168 2799
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Gesendet: Montag, 9. August 2004 02:30
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Dronino is an (ungrouped) ataxite
>
>
> Hi list and Bernd,
>
> the camacite needles or spindles in Taza are very sharp
> defined and come out
> very contrastful after etching. If there are a lot of
> spindles, they are
> often so oriented, that they indeed are imitating a kind of a
> "Widmannstättern pattern", but not very similar to Dronino.
>
> IVA - that's a good point!!
> Take a look again on that slice on ebay. One can clearly see,
> that it's
> composed of three large crystals, wherein the orientation of
> the "pattern"
> shows different orientation - almost the complete left half,
> then upper part
> to the right and bottom right -
> seperated well visible by the dark clefts.
>
> Immediately when I saw this slice, Gibeon came in my mind,
> where also such
> composed slices can be found.
> (Take f.e. a look in your Buehler, page 120).
>
> Dronino is a real uncommon iron!!
>
> Martin,
>
> (also from Southern Germany with a perfect sky for catching
> perseids. Hope
> it will last until the maximum)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 11:45 PM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Dronino is an (ungrouped) ataxite
>
>
> > Marcin wrote:
> >
> > > Pattern is strange. Only idea I just have then was, that
> this looks
> strange
> > > like Taza. Of course this is not the same, but this looks the same
> strange
> > > like Taza pattern, I not know any other similar pattern like from
> Dronino.
> >
> > Hi List,
> >
> > The Meteoritical Bulletin, No. 88 can shed some light on
> this Taza-like
> structure.
> > What you are looking at is probably taenite present as elongated
> precipitates
> > with sulfide inclusions rounded and elongated along the banding.
> >
> > But one thing is for sure: it is a very exotic iron
> meteorite because, on
> the one
> > hand, it is closely related to IVA irons, whereas, on the
> other, its low
> Au and Ga
> > contents clearly distinguish the Dronino element pattern
> from that of any
> known
> > iron meteorite group.
> >
> > __
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
__
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AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Native iron in DHO 007
As far as I remember, there was an interesting article in Meteoritics some time ago dealing with the origin of the metal in another eucrite, Camel Donga, which also has fairly "large" amounts of Fe/Ni metal. Right now, I cannot check this publication for the arguments on the origin of the metal, but your can try yourself: Herbert Palme et al. (1988) Camel Donga - A eucrite with high metal contents. Meteoritics vol. 23, pp. 49-57. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. August 2004 19:11 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Native iron in DHO 007 > > > > I can understand the Fe in the pigeonite (but this would be really > > tiny), but there is reasonable amount of ~0.5mm fresh Fe/Ni metal > > grains/flecks showing in the matrix, ... > > Maybe it has something to do with those shock features (melt > veins and dikes) > that we have seen in several of the spectacular Dhofar 007 > specimens Ivan K. > offered on EBay - some sort of "metallic puddles" formed > during the shock > event. Just a quick thought. > > Bernd > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] BIOT
Biot's report is not an off-print of an article published before, but it was reprinted five years later in "Encyclopedie methodique chim. et metal." (1808, Vol. 5, pp. 568-580). Biot also published his results more briefly in "Bibliotheque Britannique" (1803), "Philisophical Magazine" (1803) and "Annalen der Physik und Chemie" (1804). If someone needs more detailed information on these publications, just send me an email. Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Zelimir Gabelica [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 26. Juli 2004 22:30 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] BIOT > > > Hello List, > > Here (down) is the copy a message I was trying to send > (without success) > during this afternoon. Trying again...Hope it works now. > > In the meantime, I well read (through the list) more replies to > Pierre-Marie (Eric, Bernd). > So if I can help... > > Cheers, > > Zelimir > > - > Hi Pierre-Marie, Jörn, Steve, List, > > I have a photocopy of the following document: > > "Relation d'un voyage fait dans le Département de l'Orne, > pour constater la > réalité d'un météore observé à l'Aigle le 6 floréal an 11" > > Par J.-B. BIOT > > (lu à la classe des Sciences mathématiques et physiques de l'Institut > National, le 29 messidor an 11) > > Document "Imprimé par ordre de l'Institut, Paris, Baudouin, > imprimeur de > l'Institut National, Thermidor, An XI"... > > pp 3-43, > including a map entitled "carte des lieux sur lesquels a > éclaté le météore > du 6 floréal an XI aux environs de l'Aigle, Département de l'Orne" > (the same map that is very often reprinted in many modern treatises). > > The text (beginning on p 5) is in old French and it is Biot who is > speaking, thus reporting in full detail his investigations on > the field, a > few days after the famous fall was observed... > > From the format and the way it was printed, this could well > be a copy of > an "article" (= report) that appeared in an old issue of "Annales de > Physique" . This is easy to check and I can do it readily but > do not have > my data on hand by now. > > It is obviously a detailed report written by Biot and read > (as it was the > use) by a reporter to the "Academy". In other words, this is > not a book as > such but the detailed report is probably very complete. > > This copy comes from a local library at l'Aigle and was > kindly provided to > me by a library responsible, through a local friend. > However, if it comes from "The Annales", I guess it can be also found > easily alsewhere, possibly also in the US. > In case, the "Annales de Physiques" are available at the > library of my > university here. > > I don't know if this could help you Pierre-Marie (or anyone > else) but I > will be happy to provide you of a copy of my copy in due > time, in case you > need this. Let me know off list and we can make arrangements. > > Best wishes, > > Zelimir > > Prof. Zelimir Gabelica > Université de Haute Alsace > ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, > 3, Rue A. Werner, > F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France > Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 > Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 > > Prof. Zelimir Gabelica > Université de Haute Alsace > ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, > 3, Rue A. Werner, > F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France > Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 > Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Old meteorite books wanted
Hello Pierre-Marie, This really historical publication by Biot seems to be very very scare. I have never ever seen any copy offered for sale, neither on book auctions nor with antiquarian booksellers - and I am collecting meteoritics literature for more than 25 years. Let me know if you could trace an original copy. This should be easier in France than anywere else. Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Pierre-Marie PELE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 26. Juli 2004 11:04 > An: MeteoriteList > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Old meteorite books wanted > > > Hello to the List. > > As a collector of french meteorites, I'm searching for old > meteorite books related to the french meteorite falls. I'm > especially looking for the J.B. Biot book (original edition) > about the 1803 L'Aigle fall. > > Does anyone have one for sale or a contact to get one ? > > Thanks a lot. > > Pierre-Marie Pele (Meteor-Center) > -- > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Shirokovsky
Dear Frederic, A lot has been written about this "pseudo-pallasite". The most important reports can be found under the following links: www.meteoriticalsociety.org/bulletin/shirokovsky.pdf http://www.geokhi.ru/~meteorit/shirokovsky1-e.html Also look into the list archive. There are a lot of postings on this matter. I think the situation is rather clear: this Shirosovky material has never been in space as: 1. cosmogenic nuclides are virtually absent (must have been a very-very-very large meteoroid not fitting through a 42 cm hole in the ice) 2. noble gas isotopic composition is unlike those of pallasites 3. bulk chemistry is unlike pallasites 4. trace element ratios are rather terrestrial 5. contained olivine crystallized under oxidizing conditions (never heard of asteroid-size parent bodies) 6. cosmic-ray tracks i olivine not present (never seen in pallasites) 7. TL data different from pallasitic olivine (rather terrestrial) 8. oxygen isotopic composition = terrestrial Putting it together, the strongest evidence against a cosmic origin are points 5 and 8 of the above list. Jörn -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: meteoriteshow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. Juli 2004 10:05An: Meteorite ListBetreff: [meteorite-list] Shirokovsky Dear All, As I mentioned it about a week ago, Christophe and I attended both Ensisheim and Ste Marie aux Mines shows last month. This year, there was nobody proposing any slice of "Shirokovsky" in Ensisheim, but Mikhail Medvedev from St Petersburg was in Ste Marie, and sold again some slices of this "meteorite". A good friend of mines bought a slice for 200.00 Euros, and was quite ennoyed when he was told later that this is not a meteorite. I know that there was lots of controversial talks about Shirokovsky, but I am not 100% sure of the final position (if any) about it. Could any of you provide some information, I would appreciate. Thanks and kind regards, Frederic Beroudwww.meteoriteshow.comIMCA #2491 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Spaceflight and Meteoroids
Hello Walter and list, This is a nice report by this Gemini astronaut. I have never heard about it or any other report alike. Interesting is the comparison of this meteoroid impact with a baseball fastball. As a non-American, I am not at all an expert in baseball but if I assume that a fastball has 200 miles per hour at its best and the mass of the meteoroid grain was 10 mg, the energy of this object would be comparable to a baseball of 225 grams in weight! m1*v1^2 = m2*v2^2 where m1 = mass of meteoroid 0.01 grams, m2= weight of baeball (I don't know!!!), v1 = velocity of meteoroid (30,000 miles / hour), v2 = velocity of baseball (200 miles/hour), thus m2 = 0.01g * 30,000^2 / 200^2 = 225 grams Considering this mass, it is not so surprising that such tiny meteoroid particle caused so much sound on impact. Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Montag, 5. Juli 2004 14:47An: Meteorite ListBetreff: [meteorite-list] Spaceflight and Meteoroids Hello Everyone, I am an enthusiast of the US space program and I finally got around to reading Gordon Cooper's book Leap of Faith. Cooper was the pilot of Faith 7, the last Mercury flight and the command pilot of Gemini 5. On pages 125-126, he talks about being hit by "meteorites" on his Gemini flight. I think his description is interesting (overlookling innaccurate terminology). Does anyone else know of any more reports by astronauts or cosmonauts of their spacecraft being hit by meteoroids while in flight. Here is the text: We were told by astronomers to expect front-row seats for a regular meteorite shower that occurs in the latter part of every August. It would be the frist one to be observed by man from space. The first night of the shower was a sight to behold - thousands of meteorites passing under our spacecraft as they entered the Earth's atmosphere and burned up like falling stars. We knew there was a chance that a meteorite might strike our spacecraft but there was nothing we could do to prevent it and only hoped that if it happend it would be a small one. We carried a patch kit with rubber plugs to repair any tiny puncture holes (tiny was the operative word) to try to keep from losing our cabin pressure. But we were not prepared for what it sounded like when one actually hit. A hard metallic BANG! Pete and I both jumped. It sounded like a major-league fastball hurled against the side of our pacecraft, but we knew it was no bigger than a grain of sand. If the meteorite had been anywhere near the size of a baseball, it would have gone right through the side of the spacecraft - ending, in a nanosecond, oor mission and our lives. Over the course of the next couple of days, we were struck four or five times. When the spacecraft was dismantled upon it's return to the Cape - every returning spacecraft was taken apart piece by piece as part of a total engineering report to assess how it handled the stresses of flight - impresions were found on the outside wall, as if someone had driven home an ice pick with a hammer. The meteorites had actually reshaped the outer titanium wall of the spacecraft, pushnig in the toughest metal known to man as much as a quarter -inch. (Titanium takes more heat with less damage than any metal on Earth.) It seemed unbelievable that such a mall particle had so much energy and caused so much sound, but these cosmic fastballs were a bit faster than any Hall of Fame pitcher's - a speed gun would have clocked them in the range of thirty thousand miles per hour. -Walter www.branchmeteorites.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Possible Sahara 03500 Paired stone
Dear Steven, Michel and Doug, This is a fairly good picture of the meteorite. I looks to me like a chondrule-poor portion of an ordinary chondrite (L or LL), for example like Ramsdorf (L6-S5), which has large portions without any chondrules as well as the typical chondrule-bearing material (the latter is rare in Ramsdorf). I have also seem such kind of material as clasts in LL chondrites, which sometimes can be cm-size. Keep in mind that some ordinary chondrites don't show any chondrules due to high metamorphism or impact melting. Regarding high-K values due to terrestrial contamination: If this was the case with this stone, it should be reflected also in high levels of other minor and trace elements such as Na, Ba and Sr. There is a nice publication o K-rich lithologies in ordinary chondrites (i.e. Acfer 066, Acfer 160, HaH 060, Adzhi-Bogdo, Jelica, or Krahenberg (all LL chondrites): Mineralogy and chemical composition of K-rich lithology, A.Jaeckel and A.Bischoff, MAPS, 1997, 32, p.A66 (abs.); see also, MAPS, 1998, 33, p.A77 (abs.) Best regards, Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: Steven Drummond [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Juni 2004 20:28An: metlistBetreff: [meteorite-list] Possible Sahara 03500 Paired stone Hi List, I was going to save this for later but here goes , I have what looks like a paired stone to Michel Franco's Sahara 03500 But this stone is somewhat different as it shows clearly what looks like chondrules in the darker material. Someone has stated that he thinks Michel's stone is a huge clast, Michel's stone doesn't show any of this chondrule material like my stone does, and if paired with Michel's stone could show the reason why Michel has a problem with his classification . I am not going to speculate any further on this one, I will leave it up to the Scientists if they so choose to investigate this stone further. Anyway here is the link to a huge picture of a 44 gram main mass of my stone that was originally 69 grams. Please excuse the crude web site. Scroll down to the large picture . http://www.unknowncollector.com/ Any and all comments are welcome . Best Regards to all , Steven Drummond __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] K20 in meteorites
Dear Michel, fairly high K2O values have been reported for C-like clast in the following meteorites: LEW 85300 (polymict eucrite) 0.47% (C clast) Supuhee (H6) 0.57% (clast) Krähenberg (LL5) 1.45% (dark portion) Miles (IIE silicated iron) 0.5% (silicates) Cumberland Falls (aubrite) 0.43% (chondritic clasts) but also as bulk content: Governador Valadares (nakhlite) 0.43% Bhola (LL3-6) 1.5% (reference: Compositional study of K-rich fragments and host material, pyroxene Fs4-25, olivine Fa27.8, F.Wlotzka et al., GCA, 1983, 47, p.743.) There are some more meteorites with high potassium contents reported, but the wet chemical analyses are fairly antique and not very trustworthy. To give a general direction: high potassium contents in whole rock material is quite unusual. Typical contents are in the order of 0.1 to 0.2% for chondrites and 0.02 to 0.05% for basaltic achondrites (grand average of 1660 analyses is 0.098%). High K values have often been reported for unusual clasts in achondrits as well as for chondrites (here mainly carbonaceous material) and silicated irons. So, it could be, that your meteorite is a clast left over (e.g. by weathering or fragmentation during fall) from a larger body. Best regards, Jorn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Michel Franco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Juni 2004 17:20 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] K20 in meteorites > > > Hello Bernd, & List > > I have a problem with my new find Sahara 03500. ( Achondrite anom) : > > It holds more than 0.5% of K2O. Other percentages are almost OK. > > I am wandering if other meteorites hold such percentages of > that Potassium > Oxyde, which is 5 times more than any average type. > Any answer or help is welcome. TKS per advance. > > Best regards > > Michel. > > Photo of this rare meteorite on my site at > www.caillou-noir.com/TassaMahchi.htm > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Refined meteorite find statistics
Obviously, my post of Friday did not make it to the list, too. See below. Jorn -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jörn Koblitz Gesendet: Freitag, 18. Juni 2004 15:34 An: 'minador' Betreff: AW: What is "meteorite awareness" and how does it influence fall statistics? Dear Mark, I still think that this awareness (beside market pull and the increase in commercialization) is one important reason for the considerable increase of meteorite recoveries mainly as a result of systematic field search in hot desert areas. It started with the systematic meteorite recovery and public relation program conducted by Harvey Nininger back in the 1930s (the average annual count of reported finds jumped from about 5 to about 20 meteorites). When Nininger went off "business" this rate fell back to values around 10 during the 1940s and 1950s and again rised to about 20 in the 1960s when lots of stone were found in the Roosevelt area. Unusual low numbers were reported in the 1990s. The number sharply jumped up in the last 6 year when meteorite were recovered on dry lakes in California and Arizona. The case with the other hot desert areas (Sahara and Arabian Peninsula) is much more dramatic: first systematic field searches were conducted back in 1986 by geologists prospecting for oil fields in Libya (they did organized searched during their free time!) These searches yielded about 60 meteorites (named "Daraj" and are actually from "Hammadah al Hamra" area). Between 1989 and 1993 expeditions to Algeria (mainly Acfer and Tanezrouft areas) were organized and yielded 422 meteorites, for the first time including rare and scientific valuable material (e.g. the El Djouf / Acfer shower producing CR2). Due to the tense political situation and civil war in Algeria, focus of the meteorite hunters changed to Libya where more than 1200 meteorites were recovered between 1995 and 2001. In the late 1990s, DaG and HaH fields were already well grazed and it became more and more difficult to find further meteorites in reasonable time. The solution to this problem was Oman, an ideal recovery area. It yielded more than 1000 meteorites to the present date. The problem with the limited time available for systematic field search by professional meteorite hunters was solved with money poured into Morocco as local people started to conduct systematic search, not only in their own country, but also in Western Sahara and Algeria. All these thousands of meteorites finds are know labelled "Northwest Africa". A bit different is the situation with Antarctica. First systematic expeditions were conducted by a joined US/Japanese field team in 1974 after first meteorites were recovered in the Yamato Mounains back in 1969. Yamato and later the other blue ice fields around the Transantarctic Mountains (e.g. Allan Hills) yielded thousands of meteorites. This all took place long before systematic field search by private hunters began in the hot desert areas (Australia may be an exception here). Even though these Antarctic expeditions were organized by public institutions, "meteorite awareness" and the soaring interest in meteoritics and demand for scientific interesting material was the driving force for the US/ANSMET and Japanese/JARE programs. Below is a more refined statistics of finds separated by country or find region. Jörn ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ REFINED STATISTICS TOT= total count (falls + finds) OF: observed falls only USA: finds from USA ANT: finds from Antarctica SAH: finds from Sahara (North African Counties incl. "Sahara" and "Northwest Africa" meteorites) OMAN: finds from Oman REST: all other countries Year TOT OFUSA ANT SAH OMAN REST 190017 8 4 0 0 0 5 190110 5 4 0 0 0 1 190212 7 1 0 0 0 4 190321 7 6 0 0 0 8 190411 4 0 0 0 0 7 190514 5 2 0 0 0 7 190613 7 4 0 0 0 2 190716 4 6 0 0 0 6 190814 7 5 0 0 0 2 190911 2 2 0 0 0 7 191020 11 1 0 0 0 8 191112 5 2 0 0 0 5 191212 5 3 1 0 0 3 191311 3 4 0 0 0 4 191418 7 3 0
WG: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Fall Rates
> If 'increasing meteorite awareness' would result in a net > increase then > why isn't that reflected in the figures? I think, that "meteorite awareness" will not really influence the statistics. The billions of people, mainly those living in highly populated areas with "low meteorite awareness" like China or India do highly influence the fall statistics (contrary to the find (NOT observed falls) statistics which is highly influenced by meteorite awareness). There are a number of publications dealing with fall rates as a function of daytime or calendar month, which all show, that the least meteorite falls are observed at night time and in the winter months, respectively. The reason is obvious. People sleep at night and in winter time, people are not in their fields doing farm work. However, there seems to be some raise in the number of meteorites hitting houses or commodities like cars. I think, in such cases, "meteorite awareness" does matter as - based on pure probability - it is unlikely that such events have happenend less frequently in earlier times, even considering the then lower population density. Such events were simply not reported to officials and thus didn't make it into the chronicles. Jorn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mark ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Juni 2004 10:01 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Fall Rates > > > > The interesting thing is that the observed fall rates seem to > be pretty > contant to me, (with the odd few extra ones every now and again) > > If 'increasing meteorite awareness' would result in a net > increase then > why isn't that reflected in the figures? > > These random samples from benrds figures seem the same sort > of spread to > me: > So why no increase in observed falls? Especially given the development > of the media, which should record & report more sightings that would > otherwise have been lost or ignored... > > 2001 03 > 2000 05 > 1999 07 > 1998 10 > 1997 10 > 1996 05 > 1995 07 > > 1917 09 > 1916 10 > 1915 03 > 1914 08 > 1913 04 > 1912 04 > 1911 05 > 1910 10 > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Library dublicates
Hello list, During the past months, I could manage to acquire for the MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences two major collections of meteoritics literature with hundreds of prints on meteorites and lunar rocks (mainly Apollo/NASA publications). After clearing up the library inventory, there are now lots of dublicates, mainly 19th century special prints on meteorites. If someone of you is interested, please send an email off-list and I can send you an inventory list of the available prints. I prefer to trade for other special prints and books not yet represented in the library, but a sale may also be possible. Best regards, Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Statistics for falls
The second column in the list is the total count of finds and falls and not the count of finds only. Sorry. Joern > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jörn Koblitz > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Juni 2004 09:15 > An: 'tracy latimer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] Statistics for falls > > > Dear Tracy, > > I'm always a bit late since I'm not online at evening times. > Here is the MetBase statistics of observed falls and not > observed finds from the very beginning. The most recent years > may not be complete (especially 2002 and 2003). If someone > wishes to have the Excel file of this statistics including > the total weight sums, let me know and I will send it as an > emal attachment. > > Best regards, > Joern > > __ > _ > Joern Koblitz > MetBase Editor > The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences > Benquestrasse 27 > D-28209 Bremen, Germany > phone: +49 421 24 100 24 > fax: +49 421 168 2799 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ > _ > > > Year Total / Observed > 0861 1 1 > 0921 1 1 > 1491 1 1 > 1492 1 1 > 1496 1 1 > 1520 1 1 > 1583 1 1 > 1621 1 1 > 1623 1 1 > 1628 1 1 > 1632 1 1 > 1636 1 1 > 1637 1 1 > 1647 1 1 > 1654 1 1 > 1662 1 1 > 1671 1 1 > 1688 2 2 > 1704 1 1 > 1715 1 1 > 1723 1 1 > 1740 1 1 > 1741 1 1 > 1750 1 1 > 1751 1 1 > 1753 2 2 > 1766 1 1 > 1768 2 2 > 1769 1 1 > 1773 1 1 > 1775 2 2 > 1779 1 1 > 1785 1 1 > 1787 1 1 > 1790 1 1 > 1791 1 1 > 1794 1 1 > 1795 2 2 > 1796 2 2 > 1798 2 2 > 1801 1 1 > 1803 3 3 > 1804 6 3 > 1805 3 2 > 1806 1 1 > 1807 2 2 > 1808 5 4 > 1809 1 1 > 1810 5 3 > 1811 3 3 > 1812 4 4 > 1813 2 2 > 1814 5 4 > 1815 2 2 > 1817 1 1 > 1818 5 3 > 1819 3 2 > 1820 1 1 > 1821 1 1 > 1822 8 6 > 1823 2 2 > 1824 3 3 > 1825 3 2 > 1826 2 2 > 1827 3 3 > 1828 2 1 > 1829 4 3 > 1830 2 2 > 1831 2 2 > 1833 1 1 > 1834 3 2 > 1835 2 2 > 1836 5 3 > 1837 5 3 > 1838 7 5 > 1839 5 1 > 1840 7 3 > 1841 4 3 > 1842 5 4 > 1843 7 6 > 1844 4 3 > 1845 3 2 > 1846 7 3 > 1847 5 2 > 1848 4 4 > 1849 3 1 > 1850 8 2 > 1851 3 3 > 1852 8 4 > 1853 5 3 > 1854 8 1 > 1855 9 6 > 1856 6 2 > 1857 11 7 > 1858 8 4 > 1859 6 4 > 1860 11 6 > 1861 6 4 > 1862 3 2 > 1863 15 6 > 1864 4 3 > 1865 8 7 > 1866 12 7 > 1867 7 3 > 1868 15 12 > 1869 13 7 > 1870 6 3 > 1871 7 4 > 1872 6 4 > 1873 10 5 > 1874 6 3 > 1875 13 6 > 1876 9 5 > 1877 9 7 > 1878 9 6 > 1879 13 8 > 1880 15 6 > 1881 10 4 > 1882 9 4 > 1883 10 3 > 1884 11 3 > 1885 7 2 > 1886 10 7 > 1887 21 5 > 1889 14 5 > 1890 20 9 > 1891 10 2 > 1892 11 4 > 1893 12 4 > 1894 11 4 > 1895 10 4 > 1896 10 4 > 1897 12 8 > 1898 17 5 > 1899 14 7 > 1900 17 8 > 1901 10 5 > 1902 12 7 > 1903 21 7 > 1904 11 4 > 1905 14 5 > 1906 13 7 > 1907 16 4 > 1908 14 7 > 1909 10 2 > 1910 20 11 > 1911 12 5 > 1912 12 5 > 1913 10 3 > 1913? 1 1 > 1914 18 7 > 1915 11 2 > 1916 20 10 > 1917 17 9 > 1918 15 6 > 1919 14 7 > 1920 15 5 > 1921 17 8 > 1922 15 6 > 1923 16 6 > 1924 18 10 > 1925 18 9 > 1926 13 7 > 1927 17 6 > 1928 16 6 > 1929 15 7 > 1930 20 11 > 1931 23 6 > 1932 26 8 > 1933 30 18 > 1934 26 10 > 1935 20 6 > 1936 34 5 > 1937 53 7 > 1938 44 11 > 1939 3
AW: [meteorite-list] Statistics for falls
Dear Tracy, I'm always a bit late since I'm not online at evening times. Here is the MetBase statistics of observed falls and not observed finds from the very beginning. The most recent years may not be complete (especially 2002 and 2003). If someone wishes to have the Excel file of this statistics including the total weight sums, let me know and I will send it as an emal attachment. Best regards, Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ YearNot observed / Observed 08611 1 09211 1 14911 1 14921 1 14961 1 15201 1 15831 1 16211 1 16231 1 16281 1 16321 1 16361 1 16371 1 16471 1 16541 1 16621 1 16711 1 16882 2 17041 1 17151 1 17231 1 17401 1 17411 1 17501 1 17511 1 17532 2 17661 1 17682 2 17691 1 17731 1 17752 2 17791 1 17851 1 17871 1 17901 1 17911 1 17941 1 17952 2 17962 2 17982 2 18011 1 18033 3 18046 3 18053 2 18061 1 18072 2 18085 4 18091 1 18105 3 18113 3 18124 4 18132 2 18145 4 18152 2 18171 1 18185 3 18193 2 18201 1 18211 1 18228 6 18232 2 18243 3 18253 2 18262 2 18273 3 18282 1 18294 3 18302 2 18312 2 18331 1 18343 2 18352 2 18365 3 18375 3 18387 5 18395 1 18407 3 18414 3 18425 4 18437 6 18444 3 18453 2 18467 3 18475 2 18484 4 18493 1 18508 2 18513 3 18528 4 18535 3 18548 1 18559 6 18566 2 185711 7 18588 4 18596 4 186011 6 18616 4 18623 2 186315 6 18644 3 18658 7 186612 7 18677 3 186815 12 186913 7 18706 3 18717 4 18726 4 187310 5 18746 3 187513 6 18769 5 18779 7 18789 6 187913 8 188015 6 188110 4 18829 4 188310 3 188411 3 18857 2 188610 7 188721 5 188914 5 189020 9 189110 2 189211 4 189312 4 189411 4 189510 4 189610 4 189712 8 189817 5 189914 7 190017 8 190110 5 190212 7 190321 7 190411 4 190514 5 190613 7 190716 4 190814 7 190910 2 191020 11 191112 5 191212 5 191310 3 1913? 1 1 191418 7 191511 2 191620 10 191717 9 191815 6 191914 7 192015 5 192117 8 192215 6 192316 6 192418 10 192518 9 192613 7 192717 6 192816 6 192915 7 193020 11 193123 6 193226 8 193330 18 193426 10 193520 6 193634 5 193753 7 193844 11 193933 10 194038 5 194122 4 194220 8 194310 3 194419 7 19459 3 194613 6 194716 5 194822 3 194923 13 195038 12 195119 7 195217 6 19539 3 195420 6 195525 4 195624 8 195718 6 195819 2 195916 6 196030 6 196129 7 196235 8 196332 6 196431 8 196546 4 196627 6 196737 9 196852 4 196970 6 197046 8 197149 7 197231 3 197330 4 1974689 7 1975315 4 197662 12 1977308 9 1978384 3 197937722 1980169 6 1981489 7 1982228 3 1983478 5 1984388 9 1985374 3 1986144810 198710681 198831586 1989136 5 199015758 1991842 6 1992366 3 1993957 4 1994713 6 1995486 6 19
AW: [meteorite-list] What a deal!
Looks like a piece from Henbury crater strewn field. Not very exiting, except for the price. Jörn -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: ken newton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2004 15:46An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Betreff: [meteorite-list] What a deal!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5501008292He must have estimated the value based on distance traveled? With a starting bid of $70,060.00 (US) the seller states: "I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REMOVE THIS ITEM FROM SALE AT ANY TIME REGARDLESS OF BIDS"Can you imagine this guy canceling a bid of $70,060? :>)kn __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Hainaut-Bettrechies total kilo weight ?
Interesting to see that there is such a large mass in a private collection. I guess it is from Brussels Museum as the weight has changed in about the same order. I will correct the repository information in MetBase accordingly. MetBase data: 8425g: Lille, Nat. Hist. Geol. Mus.1264g: Brussels, Inst. Roy. Sci.699g: Paris, Mus. d'Hist. Nat.23.9g: Mainz, Max-Planck-Inst. Chemie11g: Helsinki, Geol. Mus. Univ.0.7g: New York, Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. Best wishes, Jörn___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 168 2799 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: vincent J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Sonntag, 6. Juni 2004 22:38An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hainaut-Bettrechies total kilo weight ? Hello List, Here is the last inventory of Hainaut meteorite -(H3-6, fall 26 november1934) Lille, Musée d'histoire Naturelle: 8425 g IRScNB-Brussel's: 801 g Paris NHM 699g Vincent Jacques collection: 411 g Liège University: 20 g Vienna NHM: 10 grams (approx) Zelimir Gabelica collection: 8-10 g (approx) A. Lucas collection: 4,5 g Total = 10 370 g + approx 1,5 Kg => hole in the main mass, probably fell in Gerpinnes (Belgium) 26/11/1934, observed fall, but not recovered (from a 11/1934 Police report) Best regards, Vincent JACQUES >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hainaut-Bettrechies total kilo weight ? >Date: 06 Jun 2004 18:56:44 UT > > > I've got some misunderstanding about the total mass of the Hainaut / > > Bettrechies meteorite. The Grady book says 8425g. But R. Marliere, > > in 1934, presents the fragments recovered from some anonymous > > finders. He says the total weight of these fragments exceeds 10 kg. > >Hello Pierre-Marie and List, > >Here is what I can offer: > >8425g, Lille, Mus. Gosselet >0712g, Paris, Mus. d'Hist. Nat. >0922g, Brussels. > >Total = 10.059 kg > >Best wishes and deep sadness here while watching (again) those >thousands of young lives lost on the beaches of Normandy. When >will we ever learn ... ??? > >Bernd > >__ >Meteorite-list mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! Cliquez-ici __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: WG: [meteorite-list] Classification question
Correct. It simply mean that no finer classification has been done. It's just a bit more work to get the subtype classification. A 3.0 is actually the most primitive, most unequilibrated and rarest type of unequilibrated ordinary chondrite. BTW: A petrologic type 2 has never been assigned to any ordinary chondrite. Only to carbonaceous chondrites. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Nicholas Gessler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Mai 2004 02:30 > An: Jörn Koblitz; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: WG: [meteorite-list] Classification question > > > While we're at it, what's the difference between a "3" and a "3.0?" > Does a "3" imply that no one made any finer discrimination? > Or does a "3" imply that it's really a "3.0?" > Cheers, > Nick > > At 08:23 AM 4/14/2004, Jörn Koblitz wrote: > >Dear Pierre, > > > > > I've got a (stupid ?) question about the classification of > > > the chondrites. > > > > > > What is the difference between this kind of classification : > > > For example L3.6, L3-6 or H5/6 > > > > > > Is the sign "-" the same as "/" or "." in this case ? > > > >Regarding the use of hyphens and slashes, see the postings > to the list of > >March 19 to 23 (pasted below). > > > >The use of "." in the classification (e.g. L3.6) is used in > case that a > >petrologic SUBtype has been obtained, either by measuring > the induced > >thermoluminescence (TL) or by calculation of the percentage > mean deviation > >(PMD) of the fayalite and ferrosilite contents of olivine > and pyroxene, > >respectively, measured by microprobe (EPMA). The subtype is > just a finer > >subdivision and is only used for unequilibrated (i.e. type > 3) chondrites. > >It is a scale for the amount of thermal metamorphism a chondrite has > >experiences since its accretion. In this respect, a 3.0 > indicate the least > >metamorphosed (or most primitive / less heated) type 3 > chondrite. On the > >other hand, a type 3.9 chondrite is almost chemically > equilibrated like > >type 4 and higher, as it has experienced considerable > heating (e.g. by > >impact shock) during its lifetime on the parent-body > (planetesimal or > >asteroid). > > > >Hope this answers your question. > > > >Best regards, > > > >Joern > > > >_ > __ > >Joern Koblitz > >MetBase Editor > >The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences > >Benquestrasse 27 > >D-28209 Bremen, Germany > >phone: +49 421 24 100 24 > >fax: +49 421 24 100 99 > >email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >_ > __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hello John, David and Bernd, > > > >Sorry for my late reply - I'm not online on weekends. > > > >You are right, it's a messy situation with the use of > slashes "/" and > >hyphens "-" and as Jeff outlined long time ago, it actually > depends on the > >research group who does the classification. With MetBase, I > stick to the > >presently preferred rules that "/" indicates a transitional > type and "-" a > >breccia. However, as complicated as it could be, imagine that a > >transitional group like H/L contains clasts of different > petrologic types, > >e.g. 4 and 6: should it then be designated H/L4-6 or > (H/L)4-6 or H4-6/L4-6? > >Regarding the transitional petrologic type designations, > e.g. H5/6: beware > >that there is always a personal bias by the person who did the > >classifications: one researcher will classify an H chondrite > H5, another > >researcher the same chondrite H6 and a third person would > give it H5/6: > >there is always an uncertainty of +/- 0.5 for equilibrated ordinary > >chondrites. That's why some researchers think that it is always > >appropriate to assign straight numbers and to prevent transitional > >numbers, which is rather a sign of shakiness. Regarding the use of > >parentheses, e.g. "LL/(L)3" or "LL(L)3": this problem is > rather restricted > >to very unequilibrated chondrites as Jeff pointed out. Since highly > >unequilibrated chondrites show large variations in mineral > chemistry (e.g. > >wide ranges of olivine, pyrox
AW: [meteorite-list] Classification
Dear Tom, The reason is rather simple: nickel test is only applicable to iron meteorites. For stony meteorites - about 90% of all meteorites - it would not give clear doubtless results and it even would contaminate the meteorite. In case of iron meteorites, the easiest way to identify the cosmic origin is to etch a blank surface using nitric or hydrochloric acid to see if a Widmanstätten pattern is present. Often - especially in case of medium and coarse octahedrites - one can even see this structure on a cut, untreated surface, because of different mechanical properties of contained kamacite and plessite/taenite. In the rare case, that no Widmanstätten pattern is existant (ataxites or hexahedrites), the nickel test would indeed help to disciminate the cosmic from a terrestrial origin. Best regards, Jorn Koblitz > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Thomas Kingery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2004 14:57 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Classification > > > I am curious why I have never seen anyone mention that they > at least did > a nickel test on an unclassified meteorite they are selling. I realize > this does not prove it to be a meteorite but does increase the > possibility. > Here in Texas there are a few ranchers and others that state > they found > what they believe to be a meteorite but have never nickel > tested or sent > off to be analyzed > > Tom Kingery > Llano,TX > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Reid 016
If I correctly remember, when this meteorite came up, it was first thought to be a brachinite. Classification later on showed it to be a poymict ureilite. References (MetBase): Listed; classification and mineral analysis by M.Prinz, American Museum of Natural History, New York; a polymict ureilite breccia, J.N.Grossman, Met. Bull. 82, MAPS, 1998, 33, p.A221. Oxygen isotopic composition, R.N.Clayton and T.K.Mayeda, GCA, 1996, p.1999. Chromite composition, C.E.Nehru et al., MAPS, 1997, 32, p.A97 (abs.). Jörn -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Freitag, 7. Mai 2004 03:13An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Reid 016[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: a piece of Reid 016 which is listed in METEORITES A-Z as aUrilite and came in a Michael Casper reiker box with label listing itas a Brachinite. Anyone know why the discrepancy? I have a small piece of Reid 013, which I understand to be a Brachinite. Maybe Casper figured if it was within 3 numbers.;-) Gregory __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Bandong
Obviousy, I face the same problems with positings not reaching the list when the list email address is put under cc in "reply to all" option of MS Outlook. Joern > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jörn Koblitz > Gesendet: Montag, 19. April 2004 13:01 > An: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] Bandong > > > Hello Bernd and List, > > There is not so much published on Bandong. The result of a > MetBase literature query is given below. I did not have the > time to check the papers for the original classification, but > I guess that Jarosewich (1985) did the LL6 classification > based on the wet chemical analysis. May be, the L6/7 is just > a typo in the paper by Genge & Grady. I will check. > > Joern > > > BANDONG RESULTS: > > DAUBRÉE G. A., VLAANDEREN C. L. (1872) Sur une météorite > tombée dans l'île de Java, près Bandong, le 10. décembre > 1871, et offerte au Muséum par M. le Gouverneur géneral de > l'Indie néerlandaise. Compt. rend. acad. sci. Paris 75, 1676-1678. > EVERWIJN R. (1872) Meteoriten gevallen nabij Bandon Preanger > Regentschappen. Jaarb. Mijn. Nederland. Oost-Indie (2), 197-201. > GRETSCHEL H. F. (1873) Bandong und Tjabé. Jahrb. Erfind. > Fortschr. Geb. Phys. Chem. Leipzig 9, 17-26. > VERBEEK R. D. M. (1886) Opgaaf van geschriften over Vroeger > op Java gevallen meteorieten. Jaarb. Mijn. Nederland. > Oost-Indie 15, 168-171. > FLIGHT W. A. (1887) A Chapter in the History of Meteorites. > Reprint from the Geol. Mag., 1875. Delau & Co, London, 224 pp. > WAHL W. (1951) The brecciated stony meteorites and > meteorites containing foreign fragments. Geochim. Cosmochim. > Acta 2 (2), 91. > DYAKONOVA M. I., KHARITONOVA V. YA. (1963) The composition > of the nickel-iron in various types of irons and stony irons. > Meteoritika 23, 52-55. > HEYMANN D. (1965) Cosmogenic and radiogenic helium, neon, and > argon in amphoterites chondrites. J. Geophys. Res. 70 (15), 3735-3743. > BINNS R. A. (1968) Cognate xenoliths in chondritic > meteorites: Examples in Mezö-Madaras and Ghubara. Geochim. > Cosmochim. Acta 32 (3), 299. > MUELLER H. W., ZAEHRINGER J. (1969) Rare gases in stony > meteorites. In: Proc. Int. Sympos. Meteorite Research (P. M. > Millman, ed.), 845-856. > FISHER D. E. (1972) Uranium content and radiogenic ages of > hypersthene, bronzite, amphoterite and carbonaceous > chondrites. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 36 (1), 15. > NEAL C. W., DODD R. T., JAROSEWICH E., LIPSCHUTZ M. E. (1981) > Chemical studies of L-chondrites. I - A study of possible > chemical sub-groups. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 45 (6), 891-898. > JAROSEWICH E., DODD R. T. (1985) Chemical variations among > L-chondrites. IV - Analyses, with petrographic notes, of 13 > L-group and 3 LL-group chondrites. Meteoritics 20 (1), 23-36. > BRIDGES J. C., HUTCHISON R. (1997) A survey of clasts and > large chondrules in ordinary chondrites. Meteorit. Planet. > Sci. 32 (3), 389-394. > GENGE M. J., GRADY M. M. (1999) The fusion crusts of stony > meteorites: Implications for the atmospheric reprocessing of > extraterrestrial materials. Meteorit. Planet. Sci. 34 (3), 341-356. > WILKISON S. L., ROBINSON M. S. (2000) Bulk density of > ordinary chondrite meteorites and implications for asteroidal > internal structure. Meteorit. Planet. Sci. 35 (6), 1203-1213. > FRIEDRICH J. M., LIPSCHUTZ M. E. (2001) How Do L/LL > Chondrites Relate to L and LL Falls? (abs.). In: Abstr. Lunar > Planet. Sci. Conf. 32 (1198) > BURBINE T. H., MCCOY T. J., JAROSEWICH E., SUNSHINE J. M. > (2002) Deriving asteroid mineralogies from reflectance > spectra: Implications for the MUSES-C target asteroid. > (abs.). Papers Sympos. Antarctic Meteorites, NIPR 27 (59), 9-11. > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Freitag, 16. April 2004 21:09 > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Bandong > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > I just stumbled over a classification problem while browsing > > this article > > in search of some good answers to Jeff Pringle's (didn't find > > any though): > > > > GENGE M.J., GRADY M.M.(1999) The fusion crusts of stony meteorites: > > implications for the atmospheric reprocessing of > > extraterrestrial materials > > (MAPS 34-3, 1999, 341-356). > > > > Now here's the classificational problem: > > > > The above authors classify Bandong as an L6/7 chondrite > although it is > > an LL6 in M.M. Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites (5th edition). > > > > I
AW: [meteorite-list] Bandong
Hello Bernd and List, There is not so much published on Bandong. The result of a MetBase literature query is given below. I did not have the time to check the papers for the original classification, but I guess that Jarosewich (1985) did the LL6 classification based on the wet chemical analysis. May be, the L6/7 is just a typo in the paper by Genge & Grady. I will check. Joern BANDONG RESULTS: DAUBRÉE G. A., VLAANDEREN C. L. (1872) Sur une météorite tombée dans l'île de Java, près Bandong, le 10. décembre 1871, et offerte au Muséum par M. le Gouverneur géneral de l'Indie néerlandaise. Compt. rend. acad. sci. Paris 75, 1676-1678. EVERWIJN R. (1872) Meteoriten gevallen nabij Bandon Preanger Regentschappen. Jaarb. Mijn. Nederland. Oost-Indie (2), 197-201. GRETSCHEL H. F. (1873) Bandong und Tjabé. Jahrb. Erfind. Fortschr. Geb. Phys. Chem. Leipzig 9, 17-26. VERBEEK R. D. M. (1886) Opgaaf van geschriften over Vroeger op Java gevallen meteorieten. Jaarb. Mijn. Nederland. Oost-Indie 15, 168-171. FLIGHT W. A. (1887) A Chapter in the History of Meteorites. Reprint from the Geol. Mag., 1875. Delau & Co, London, 224 pp. WAHL W. (1951) The brecciated stony meteorites and meteorites containing foreign fragments. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 2 (2), 91. DYAKONOVA M. I., KHARITONOVA V. YA. (1963) The composition of the nickel-iron in various types of irons and stony irons. Meteoritika 23, 52-55. HEYMANN D. (1965) Cosmogenic and radiogenic helium, neon, and argon in amphoterites chondrites. J. Geophys. Res. 70 (15), 3735-3743. BINNS R. A. (1968) Cognate xenoliths in chondritic meteorites: Examples in Mezö-Madaras and Ghubara. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 32 (3), 299. MUELLER H. W., ZAEHRINGER J. (1969) Rare gases in stony meteorites. In: Proc. Int. Sympos. Meteorite Research (P. M. Millman, ed.), 845-856. FISHER D. E. (1972) Uranium content and radiogenic ages of hypersthene, bronzite, amphoterite and carbonaceous chondrites. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 36 (1), 15. NEAL C. W., DODD R. T., JAROSEWICH E., LIPSCHUTZ M. E. (1981) Chemical studies of L-chondrites. I - A study of possible chemical sub-groups. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 45 (6), 891-898. JAROSEWICH E., DODD R. T. (1985) Chemical variations among L-chondrites. IV - Analyses, with petrographic notes, of 13 L-group and 3 LL-group chondrites. Meteoritics 20 (1), 23-36. BRIDGES J. C., HUTCHISON R. (1997) A survey of clasts and large chondrules in ordinary chondrites. Meteorit. Planet. Sci. 32 (3), 389-394. GENGE M. J., GRADY M. M. (1999) The fusion crusts of stony meteorites: Implications for the atmospheric reprocessing of extraterrestrial materials. Meteorit. Planet. Sci. 34 (3), 341-356. WILKISON S. L., ROBINSON M. S. (2000) Bulk density of ordinary chondrite meteorites and implications for asteroidal internal structure. Meteorit. Planet. Sci. 35 (6), 1203-1213. FRIEDRICH J. M., LIPSCHUTZ M. E. (2001) How Do L/LL Chondrites Relate to L and LL Falls? (abs.). In: Abstr. Lunar Planet. Sci. Conf. 32 (1198) BURBINE T. H., MCCOY T. J., JAROSEWICH E., SUNSHINE J. M. (2002) Deriving asteroid mineralogies from reflectance spectra: Implications for the MUSES-C target asteroid. (abs.). Papers Sympos. Antarctic Meteorites, NIPR 27 (59), 9-11. > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 16. April 2004 21:09 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Bandong > > > Hello All, > > I just stumbled over a classification problem while browsing > this article > in search of some good answers to Jeff Pringle's (didn't find > any though): > > GENGE M.J., GRADY M.M.(1999) The fusion crusts of stony meteorites: > implications for the atmospheric reprocessing of > extraterrestrial materials > (MAPS 34-3, 1999, 341-356). > > Now here's the classificational problem: > > The above authors classify Bandong as an L6/7 chondrite although it is > an LL6 in M.M. Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites (5th edition). > > In another article by Wilkinson et al., published in 2000, > it's again an LL6: > > WILKISON S.L. et al. (2000) Bulk density of ordinary > chondrite meteorites and > implications for asteroidal internal structure (MAPS 35-6, > 2000, pp. 1203-1213). > > Does anyone have any pertinent background info so they can > shed some light > on this ... ? > > Will have to look again at my Bandong thin section that I purchased > a while ago. It has a beautiful xenolith at the upper left edge. > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
WG: [meteorite-list] Classification question
Dear Pierre, > I've got a (stupid ?) question about the classification of > the chondrites. > > What is the difference between this kind of classification : > For example L3.6, L3-6 or H5/6 > > Is the sign "-" the same as "/" or "." in this case ? Regarding the use of hyphens and slashes, see the postings to the list of March 19 to 23 (pasted below). The use of "." in the classification (e.g. L3.6) is used in case that a petrologic SUBtype has been obtained, either by measuring the induced thermoluminescence (TL) or by calculation of the percentage mean deviation (PMD) of the fayalite and ferrosilite contents of olivine and pyroxene, respectively, measured by microprobe (EPMA). The subtype is just a finer subdivision and is only used for unequilibrated (i.e. type 3) chondrites. It is a scale for the amount of thermal metamorphism a chondrite has experiences since its accretion. In this respect, a 3.0 indicate the least metamorphosed (or most primitive / less heated) type 3 chondrite. On the other hand, a type 3.9 chondrite is almost chemically equilibrated like type 4 and higher, as it has experienced considerable heating (e.g. by impact shock) during its lifetime on the parent-body (planetesimal or asteroid). Hope this answers your question. Best regards, Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Hello John, David and Bernd, Sorry for my late reply - I'm not online on weekends. You are right, it's a messy situation with the use of slashes "/" and hyphens "-" and as Jeff outlined long time ago, it actually depends on the research group who does the classification. With MetBase, I stick to the presently preferred rules that "/" indicates a transitional type and "-" a breccia. However, as complicated as it could be, imagine that a transitional group like H/L contains clasts of different petrologic types, e.g. 4 and 6: should it then be designated H/L4-6 or (H/L)4-6 or H4-6/L4-6? Regarding the transitional petrologic type designations, e.g. H5/6: beware that there is always a personal bias by the person who did the classifications: one researcher will classify an H chondrite H5, another researcher the same chondrite H6 and a third person would give it H5/6: there is always an uncertainty of +/- 0.5 for equilibrated ordinary chondrites. That's why some researchers think that it is always appropriate to assign straight numbers and to prevent transitional numbers, which is rather a sign of shakiness. Regarding the use of parentheses, e.g. "LL/(L)3" or "LL(L)3": this problem is rather restricted to very unequilibrated chondrites as Jeff pointed out. Since highly unequilibrated chondrites show large variations in mineral chemistry (e.g. wide ranges of olivine, pyroxene or metal compositions), one has to do a large number of microprobe and (oxygen) isotopic measurements to gain certainty on the classification. This is very time-consuming and expensive. Further, many hot-desert finds are higly weathered which makes it difficult to classify them based on chemical compositions (terrestrial contamination). David: Regarding the differences in designations beween Met. Bulletin and MetBase, I have to check the literature sources of the MetBase information and let you know lateron if I can clearify. Joern > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. März 2004 22:27 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jörn Koblitz; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hyphens / Slashes > > > Bernd. Dave, Joern and others, > > Bernd, thanx for the previously submitted info from Jeff on > slashes and dashes. > > That should certainly clear it up the confusion, right Dave. :) > > John > > BTW: Joern...in all seriousness I really appreciate you > responding to this thread. > > > > > For chondrite groups, petrologic types, shock stages, and > weathering > > > grades, slashes (e.g., H5/6) indicate transitional > assignments. Hyphens > > > in petrologic type assignments for chondrites (e.g., > H5-6) indicate the > > > range of types observed in breccias. Group names such as > "L(LL)" indicate > > > uncertain assignments, with the less probable group in > parentheses. > > > > Hello All, > > > > I was waiting for Jeff Grossman to chime in here, because >
AW: [meteorite-list] LL7 Chondrites
Here's a list of chondrites classified as LL7, the most recent ones not included. There are a some more Yamato finds that are listed without any petrologic type, since they are highly metamorphic - may be impact melts. Hard to classify, petrologically. Best regards, Joern MetBase nameclass country fall? dateTKW kg fa_avg fs_avg ALH 84027 LL7(?)AntarcticaN 19840,008 27 23 Crocker's Well LL7 Australia N 19560,0038 29.8 Dar al Gani 1022LL7 Libya N 2001/04/25 0,0336 29.6 25.0 Dhofar 011 LL7 OmanN 1999/12/05 0,15 30.525.5 Dhofar 014 LL7 OmanN 2000/01/21 0,414 29.724.3 EET 92012 LL7 Antarctica N 19920,002 30 24 EET 92013 LL7 Antarctica N 19920,0099 30 24 EET 92016 LL7 Antarctica N 19920,0101 30 24 NWA 503 LL7 ? N 20000,596 30.6 Sahara97037 LL7 ? N 1997/02 0,149 31.2 26.6 UdenLL7 Netherlands Y 1840/06/12 0,71 29.524.5 Y 74160 LL7 Antarctica N 1974/12/08 0,0314 29.4 23.1 Y 790144LL7 Antarctica N 19790,09232 27.8 22.8 Y 791067LL7 Antarctica N 19790,23459 31.0 24.8 Y 82067 LL7 Antarctica N 1982/12 0,01468 30.425.0 > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jeff Grossman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 26. März 2004 01:07 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] LL7 Chondrites > > > One of the reasons that type 7 ordinary chondrites are rare > may be that > many researchers do not think the distinction between 6 and 7 is > significant and therefore never classify anything as type 7. > As far as > anymeteorite called type "6/7" is concerned, don't forget > that the slash in > a classification often means "I can't decide" and not > "transitional". Certain classifiers use lots of slashes and > others never > use them at all. > > jeff > > At 04:30 PM 3/25/2004 -0700, Michael Farmer wrote: > >Dr Ted Bunch did the classification. I have to belive that > he knows what he > >it doing. The pieces are up on my website right now. > >See them here > >http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa2092.htm > >http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa20922.htm > >Price is $30.00 gram today only. > >Mike Farmer > >- Original Message - > >From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:11 PM > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] LL7 Chondrites > > > > > > > Hey Adam, > > > > > > Yes, I agree with you. Very perceptive. The two types are mutually > > > exclusive based on the definition of Dodd. Type 7 > ordinary chondrites > > > were originally defined by Dodd et al. (1975) according > to specific > > > petrographic characteristics. They listed three > metamorphic criteria to > > > distinguish between petrographic types 6 and 7: > > > > > > 1.the presence of poorly defined chondrules in type 6, > but only relict > > > chondrules in type 7 > > > > > > 2.low-Ca pyroxenes in type 6 contain no more than 1.0 wt% > CaO (1.0 wt% = > > > ~1.9 mol% Wo), but more than 1.0 wt% in type 7; > conversely, the CaO > > > content of high-Ca pyroxenes decreases from type 6 to type 7 > > > > > > 3.feldspar grains gradually coarsen to reach a size of at > least 0.1 mm > > > in type 7 > > > > > > Perhaps this is one of those confused cases of > classification in which > > > different labs call things by different terminology. > Could they have > > > found both petrographic phases in the stone and used the slash to > > > indicate this? Who did the classification? > > > > > > Regards, > > > David > > > > > > __ > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > >__ > >Meteorite-list mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ___
AW: [meteorite-list] NWA 2058 and pseudotachylite
> Shock stage: S6 plus ... S7, S8...? The problem with further increasing shock pressures is that the rock is extremely heated up to melting by the energy of the shock wave and the compression and shear friction involved. This will vanish all signs of shock the material experienced before the subsequent annealing and healing of shock features happened. That's why impact melt rocks doesn't show the typical features of heavy shock which are necessary to properly classify the shock stage. Observed shock features in impact melt rocks or IMBs originated from secondary (later) shock events (imagine heavily bombardment of the chondrite parent body and further processing of the material). So, I think S6 is the limit. Beyond that, nobody can tell for sure. Joern > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. März 2004 21:44 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] NWA 2058 and pseudotachylite > > > > It is the most shocked chondrite yet discovered with no chondritic > > features that can be measured for metamorphism meaning ... > > So the Yanzhuang (H6, S6) chondrite that fell 1990, Oct 31, and is > one of the most severely reheated and the most severely shocked > H chondrites has got a new "brother". > > > Shock stage: S6 plus ... > > According to Stöffler, S6 means: very strongly shocked, > recrystallization > of olivine and phase transformations of olivine (ringwoodite). > > I wonder if this will lead to an extension of the shock stage > scale to S7 ?! > > > this meteorite was formed by a hypervelocity impact on the > surface of an > > asteroid and cooled within milliseconds as it was ejected > out into space. > > Fast cooling and complete melting also happened to Yanzhuang. > F. Begemann > et al. write: "The metal in the FeNi-FeS blobs shows the > distinct dentritic > structure characteristic of fast cooling. Indeed, the typical > dentrite width > of some 30 micrometers is comparable to that observed in a > metal regulus of > vacuum-melted H-chondrite Pantar that was cooled down to 800°C within > approximately 3 minutes." > > Adam, do NWA 2058 FeNi-FeS blobs also show this dentritic structure? > > > NWA 2058 is an H (Pseudotachylite) ... > > According to Rubin, the Elbert LL6 chondrite contains narrow > glassy pseudo- > tachylite-like veins. If these veinlets are "type-A", they > may be coesite- > and stishovite-bearing. > > Adam, any reports of these high-pressure polymorphs in NWA 2058? > > Here on Earth, The Vredefort Dome and Sudbury (Sudbury > breccia) structures > are the type areas for this unusual rock type called > pseudotachylite but it has > also been observed in other impact structures (Rochechouart, > Manicouagan, > Slate Islands). > > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > > References: > > STÖFFLER D. et al. (1991) Proposal for a revised petrographic shock > classification of chondrites (Meteoritics 26-4, 1981, A398-A399). > > BEGEMANN F. et al. (1992) On the thermal history of heavily shocked > Yanzhuang H-chondrite (Meteoritics 27-2, 1992, 174-178). > > XIANDE X. et al. (1991) The new meteorite fall of Yanzhuang, > a severely > shocked H6 chondrite with black molten materials (Meteoritics > 26-4, 1991, A411). > > FRENCH B.M. (1998) Traces of Catastrophe (LPI Contribution > 954, pp. 65-69). > > RUBIN A.E. (2003) Post-shock annealing and post-annealing > shock: implications > for the thermal and shock histories of ordinary-chondrite > parent bodies (Lunar and > Planetary Science XXXIV (2003), 1263.pdf). > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag
Ooops. I inserted the Excel table and sent the email as rich-text format. Obviouly, emails are transformed into unformatted text-only file when they arrive at list members. The formatting is lost and the content is hard to read. Sorry! Joern > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Jörn Koblitz > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. März 2004 15:11 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Adam Hupe > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: AW: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > > Below is a table of H/L chondrites as found in MetBase. > Yamato 8424 is NOT a member of the H/L group, but a polymict > breccia mainly of H clasts in an LL host. For unequilibrated > H/L3 chondrites, it is not easy to identify them as being > members of this transitional group since their average > fayalite and ferrosilite compositions tend to shift to lower > values. A typical feature of unequilibrated chondrites (Fa/Fs > percentage mean deviations (PMD) increase, mean values decrease) > > Joern > MetBase > > name class Fall? country dateTKW kg breccia shock > weatheringfa_avg fs_avg latitudelongitude > Bremervörde H/L3.9 Y Germany 1855/05/13 7,25 > Y S2 W0 18.653°24'N 9°6'E > Dar al Gani 369 H/L3.5 N Libya 1997/10/20 > 1,001 S2 W3 16.8 9.127°56.92'N > 15°54.08'E > Dar al Gani 378 H/L3N Libya 1997/10/21 > 0,068 S3 W2 14.3 7.927°54.97'N > 15°50.27'E > Dar al Gani 591 H/L6N Libya 1998/03 0,09 > S2 W3 20.017.427°39.32'N 15°59.54'E > Dhofar 428H/L5N Oman2001/03/28 0,526 > S2 W4 21.518.518°47.394'N 54°29.311'E > Tieschitz H/L3.6 Y Czech Republic 1878/07/15 > 28S3 W0 49°36'N 17°7'E > Y 74645 H/L4N Antarctica 1974/12/28 > 0,0356C 21.117.971°30'S 35°40'E > Y 8424H/L/LL N Antarctica 19840,00946 > Y 23.117.071°30'S 35°40'E > Y 9405H/L4N Antarctica 1994/12 0,00483 > 71°32'49"S 35°24'07"E > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. März 2004 04:40 > > An: Adam Hupe > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > > > > Adam and others, > > > > What do we know about H/L's beyond what Joern said? > > Bernd...you gave us some thought on the H/L > > NWA 1955. You seemed very intrigued by what you saw. Any comments. > > > > If you ever saw Haxtun in thin section...it is very strange > > indeed. To me it is one of the > > coolest(as in awesome) thin sections I've ever seen. > > > > More on H/L's would be good. > > > > John > > > Hi John and group, > > > > > > I enjoyed the reading when I returned this afternoon. I > > was unaware that > > > polymict breccia chondrites were rarer than regolithic > > breccias. I guess > > > there is always room to learn something new and when the > > List is used > > > properly it can provide educational gems such as this. I > > think the term > > > transitional is used to describe an H/L classification. > > This means to me > > > that the chondrite came from a completely different parent > > body than an H or > > > an L therefore it is not the mixing of two parent bodies. > > Since I never > > > studied the H/L designation and only a few exist there is > > room here for > > > something to be learned. > > > > > > Sounds like an interesting subject, > > > > > > Adam > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > > > > > > > > Joern, > > > > > > > > Thanx a lot for the great answers. I think many will > > benefit from this > > > exchange. > > > > I
AW: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag
Below is a table of H/L chondrites as found in MetBase. Yamato 8424 is NOT a member of the H/L group, but a polymict breccia mainly of H clasts in an LL host. For unequilibrated H/L3 chondrites, it is not easy to identify them as being members of this transitional group since their average fayalite and ferrosilite compositions tend to shift to lower values. A typical feature of unequilibrated chondrites (Fa/Fs percentage mean deviations (PMD) increase, mean values decrease) Joern MetBase nameclass Fall? country dateTKW kg breccia shock weathering fa_avg fs_avg latitudelongitude Bremervörde H/L3.9 Y Germany 1855/05/13 7,25Y S2 W0 18.653°24'N 9°6'E Dar al Gani 369 H/L3.5 N Libya 1997/10/20 1,001 S2 W3 16.8 9.127°56.92'N 15°54.08'E Dar al Gani 378 H/L3N Libya 1997/10/21 0,068 S3 W2 14.3 7.927°54.97'N 15°50.27'E Dar al Gani 591 H/L6N Libya 1998/03 0,09S2 W3 20.0 17.427°39.32'N 15°59.54'E Dhofar 428 H/L5N Oman2001/03/28 0,526 S2 W4 21.518.518°47.394'N 54°29.311'E Tieschitz H/L3.6 Y Czech Republic 1878/07/15 28 S3 W0 49°36'N 17°7'E Y 74645 H/L4N Antarctica 1974/12/28 0,0356 C 21.117.971°30'S 35°40'E Y 8424 H/L/LL N Antarctica 19840,00946 Y 23.1 17.071°30'S 35°40'E Y 9405 H/L4N Antarctica 1994/12 0,00483 71°32'49"S 35°24'07"E > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. März 2004 04:40 > An: Adam Hupe > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > Adam and others, > > What do we know about H/L's beyond what Joern said? > Bernd...you gave us some thought on the H/L > NWA 1955. You seemed very intrigued by what you saw. Any comments. > > If you ever saw Haxtun in thin section...it is very strange > indeed. To me it is one of the > coolest(as in awesome) thin sections I've ever seen. > > More on H/L's would be good. > > John > > Hi John and group, > > > > I enjoyed the reading when I returned this afternoon. I > was unaware that > > polymict breccia chondrites were rarer than regolithic > breccias. I guess > > there is always room to learn something new and when the > List is used > > properly it can provide educational gems such as this. I > think the term > > transitional is used to describe an H/L classification. > This means to me > > that the chondrite came from a completely different parent > body than an H or > > an L therefore it is not the mixing of two parent bodies. > Since I never > > studied the H/L designation and only a few exist there is > room here for > > something to be learned. > > > > Sounds like an interesting subject, > > > > Adam > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:51 PM > > Subject: Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > > > > > Joern, > > > > > > Thanx a lot for the great answers. I think many will > benefit from this > > exchange. > > > I know Adam will be happy that you helped his cause to > highlight the > > uniqueness of the polymict chondrite feature of Amgala. Now > we'll wait for > > those results...How about it Adam? > > > > > > Couldn't the H/L's get mixed together in space to create a > > polymict...seems reasonable, even if we don't have a good example > > yet...maybe Amgala will be just that. > > > > > > Regards, > > > John > > > > Dear John, > > > > > > > > I think, for chondrites, regolith breccias (monomict or > genomict) are > > quite more > > > > abundant than polymict breccias. The opposite is true > for achondrites. > > Polymict > > > > breccias, especially eucrites (howardites are polymict > by definition!) > > are quite > > > > often polymict (there is an unusual high fraction of > polymict eucrites >
AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag
Dear John, I think, for chondrites, regolith breccias (monomict or genomict) are quite more abundant than polymict breccias. The opposite is true for achondrites. Polymict breccias, especially eucrites (howardites are polymict by definition!) are quite often polymict (there is an unusual high fraction of polymict eucrites from Antarctica), whereas regolith breccias are rather common only for lunaites (e.g. anorthositic highland breccias), which are - by definition - achondrites. A nice example for another regolithic achondrite is the howardite Kapoeta (higly solar-gas-rich material). Regarding the H/Ls (Bremervoerde, NWA 1955, Tieschitz...): these aren't polymict breccias containing H and L lithologies, but members of a group intermediate between H and L chondrite in terms of composition and isotopic signatures. They likely come from a parent body (PB) distinct from the PBs of both, the L and H chondrites. Though they are breccias, they are not mixing products of L and H material. Best wishes, Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. März 2004 19:44 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > Joern, > > Thanx for the clarification on regolith versus the basic > breccia types. > > As far as chondrites go...is a genomict breccia with a > regolith history like Zag more or less unusual when compared > to a polymict breccia for chondrites, as in the supposed case > for Amgala? I ask this since you did point out that > achondrites are the ones that usually have the polymict > breccias, and not chondrites. > > Does this make NWA 1955 (H/L 3-4) a polymict breccia also? Or > does its classification as being unequilibrated chondrite > make it different than a breccia per say? > > John > > > Tsarev noble gas data data: > > > > he_3he_4ne_20 ne_21 ne_22 ar_36 ar_38 ar_40 > > 1,58121 0,540,540,600,420,11575 > > 2,07108 0,780,820,880,830,201635 > > all values: x 10E-8 cc STP/g > > > > Reference: Herzog G. F., Vogt S., Albrecht A., Xue S., Fink > D., Klein J., > > Middleton R., Weber H. W. and Schultz L. (1997) Complex > exposure histories for > > meteorites with "short" exposure ages. Meteoritics 32, 413-422. > > > > According to this, Tsarev isn't a regolith breccia. > > > > BTW: A regolith breccia can be either polymict (different > source types of > > clasts, e.g., H3 + L6), xenolithic (some minor exotic > (non-host type) clasts, > > e.g. CM clasts in L6 host), genomict (same material type > but different > > petrologic grades, e.g. H3 + H5), or monomict (e.g. light > H3 + dark H3 > > (irradiated) lithologies). Usually, regolith breccias are > monomict or genomict > > breccias. Achondrites are often polymict breccias (e.g. > howardites, eucrites, > > diogenits, ureilites, lunaites). > > > > Regards, > > Joern > > > > > __ > _ > > Joern Koblitz > > MetBase Editor > > The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences > > Benquestrasse 27 > > D-28209 Bremen, Germany > > phone: +49 421 24 100 24 > > fax: +49 421 24 100 99 > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __ > _ > > > > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. März 2004 21:20 > > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > > > > > > > Adam wrote: > > > > > > > I do not believe it is going to classify as a > > > > regolith breccia but rather a polymict breccia. > > > > > > Adam also wrote: > > > > > > > I thought one distinction made for a regolith breccia is that > > > > there are signs of crystal damage caused by the solar wind > > > > > > Martin A. chirped: > > > > > > > Tsarev w
AW: [meteorite-list] Books on Eucrites???
Dear Dave, I found 3 monographs - mainly on eucrites, all dissertations and quite technical (see below). You can try to get them on loan from a university library nearby. Also, check the internet / google. May be they are online as pdf file. Good luck! Joern *** DUKE M. B. (1963) Petrology of basaltic achondrites. Ph.D. Thesis, California Institute of Technology. Pasadena, CA, 362 pp. JÉROME D. Y. (1970) Composition and origin of some achondrite meteorites. Ph.D. Thesis, University of Oregon. 166 pp. MUNTEAN R. A. (1979) Determination of primordial and cosmogenic radioactivity in achondritic meteorites by low-level, gamma-ray spectrometry. Ph.D. Thesis, Tennessee Univ., Knoxville. Knoxville > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Dave Schultz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 15. März 2004 23:06 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Books on Eucrites??? > > > Thanks Joern. Do you know if a lay person as myself > could possibly get copies of these for personal use > only. Thanks again! > Dave > > > > There isn't any commercially available book > > exclusively dealing with eucrites. There are a few > > special publications and Ph.D. dissertations on > > eucrites mainly on chemistry and isotopes. > > > > Regards, > > Joern > > > > > __ > _ > > Joern Koblitz > > MetBase Editor > > The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary > > Sciences > > Benquestrasse 27 > > D-28209 Bremen, Germany > > phone: +49 421 24 100 24 > > fax: +49 421 24 100 99 > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __ > _ > > > > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > > Von: Dave Schultz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. März 2004 04:32 > > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Books on Eucrites??? > > > > > > > > > Greetings. I was just wondering if anyone knows > > of > > > any books or publications that one can purchase > > that > > > strickly deals with Eucrites? Thanks. > > > Dave > > > > > > __ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for > > faster > > > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > __ > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag
Tsarev noble gas data data: he_3he_4ne_20 ne_21 ne_22 ar_36 ar_38 ar_40 1,58121 0,540,540,600,420,11575 2,07108 0,780,820,880,830,201635 all values: x 10E-8 cc STP/g Reference: Herzog G. F., Vogt S., Albrecht A., Xue S., Fink D., Klein J., Middleton R., Weber H. W. and Schultz L. (1997) Complex exposure histories for meteorites with "short" exposure ages. Meteoritics 32, 413-422. According to this, Tsarev isn't a regolith breccia. BTW: A regolith breccia can be either polymict (different source types of clasts, e.g., H3 + L6), xenolithic (some minor exotic (non-host type) clasts, e.g. CM clasts in L6 host), genomict (same material type but different petrologic grades, e.g. H3 + H5), or monomict (e.g. light H3 + dark H3 (irradiated) lithologies). Usually, regolith breccias are monomict or genomict breccias. Achondrites are often polymict breccias (e.g. howardites, eucrites, diogenits, ureilites, lunaites). Regards, Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 15. März 2004 21:20 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Amgala, Tsarev and Zag > > > Adam wrote: > > > I do not believe it is going to classify as a > > regolith breccia but rather a polymict breccia. > > Adam also wrote: > > > I thought one distinction made for a regolith breccia is that > > there are signs of crystal damage caused by the solar wind > > Martin A. chirped: > > > Tsarev which is brecciated but not polymict > > is also altered by solar winds, isn't it? > > Hello Adam, Martin, and List, > > There are 3 types of inert and/or noble gases in some meteorites: > > (1) those produced by cosmic ray bombardment (cosmogenic); > (2) those resulting from radioactive decay of elements (radiogenic) > in the meteorite; > (3) those present originally (= trapped or primordial gases). > > No. (3) is what we are interested in to find out if Amgala, Tsarev > and Zag have or have not been altered by solar wind particles. > > These gases are 4^He, 20^Ne, 36^Ar, 84^Kr, 132^Xe. > > There are two different sources for these inert/noble gases: > > (a) solar-type gas > (b) planetary-type gas > > To find out "what is what" and "which is which", meteoriticists > consider the relative amounts and, above all, ratios of a number > of isotopes. > > J.T. Wasson proposed the following arbitrary > definition of a solar gas-rich meteorite: > > - The 20^Ne/22^Ne ratio should be greater than 2.5 > - Ne isotopic data should plot above the dashed line > you find on p. 102 and on p. 111 of Wasson's and > Sears' books (see: Reference) > - The 4^He content should exceed 2 x 10^-5 cm^3 g^-1 > - The 20^Ne / 36^Ar ratio should be greater than 0.3 > > Unfortunately, I don't have any of these isotope data handy for > Tsarev :-( What I do have are some 3^He and 21^Ne data from > the MPI Mainz but they are of little help at the moment). > > There is an abstract paper by Honda et al. but they only discuss > cosmogenic nuclides (see: Reference) - again of little help. > > Anyway, Tsarev is a special case and as such mentioned in a > research article by S.K. Vogt et al. The authors group Tsarev > with a number of other H and L chondrites that underwent a > complex "two-stage exposure history": > > t1 = 8 million years, radius ca. 200 cm > t2 = ca. 0.3 million years, radius ca. 140 cm > > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > > References: > > VOGT S.K. et al. (1993) On the Bur Ghelulai H5 chondrite and other > meteorites with complex exposure histories (Meteoritics 28, > 1993, 71-85). > > HONDA M. et al. (1992) Cosmogenic nuclides in the > Tsarev chondrite (Meteoritics 27-3, 1992, 234-235). > > WASSON J.T. (1974) Meteorites Classification and Properties > (Springer-Verlag, Berlin, Heidelberg, New York, pp. 97-109). > > SEARS D.W. (1978) The Nature and Origin of > Meteorites (Adam Hilger Ltd. Bristol, pp. 110-115). > > McSWEEN H.Y. (1999) Meteorites and Their Parent Planets > (Cambridge University Press, Glossary, pp. 41-44, 111-112, 244-248). > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Thomas Structure
A very interesting issue is that, as Kevin stated, nobody seemed to take notice of this remarkable paper published in Bibliotheque Britannique (Geneva). This journal was highly recognized and read in the early 19th century. Famous scholars like Biot, Howard, DeLuc, or Chladni published articles or issued letters. One can assume, that Carl von Schreibers and Chladni knew about it. Chladni for example did not miss any publication those time as he constantly added information to his compilation of new and historical meteorite falls and finds. His book "Feuermeteore" published in 1819 is a great outcome of this task. Not only does it lists all meteorites known so far, it also is a good source for the literature published. Alois von Widmannstetter (Widmannstaetten) itself was never very focused on meteorites, so it wouldn't surprise if he did not know about the Thomson paper ...but the others! Thomson is not mentioned in the famous book by Carl von Schreibers (Beyträge zur Geschichte und Kenntniss meteorischer Stein und Metallmassen...), Vienna, 1820 (an original copy of this great folio is in the MetBase Libary!) and Widmanstaetten is fully honoured for his invention (the nature printing) and the Widmannstaetten figures are named after him. A nice idea to change the "Widmannstaetten structure" to "Thomson structure". However, "Thomson structure" reminds me more of some terrestrial impact crater than of the crystallographic orientation relationship of iron, which is well established term in metallury and meteoritics. Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. März 2004 18:59 > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Thomas Structure > > > > Well, I better wait until the real name is revealed! :-) > > Hello Anita, Moni, and List, > > a) William Thomson who later became "Lord Kelvin" lived > from 1824-1907. He can't be the one who first discovered > what is now commonly called the Widmannstaetten pattern. > > b) William G. Thomson => 1761-1806. He is the one that > Kevin is talking about in his wonderful article "A Rose by > Any Other Name" > > c) The "p" on Thomson is probably a misspelling that you find > both in O.R. Norton's "Encyclopedia of Meteorites" (p. 184) > and in its predecessor "Rocks From Space" (p. 222). > > You also find this spelling in V.F. Buchwald's volumes on > iron meteorites (p.115), but the spelling is correct in R. W. > Bühler's "Meteorite" (p. 141), in J.G. Burke's "Cosmic Debris" > (p. 429, Name Index), and in D.W. Sears' "Nature and Origin > of Meteorites" (p. 7). > > Kevin will surely clear this up when he is back from Costa Rica > where he is "out of touch until April 2". > > Hope this helps, > > Sincerely, > > Bernd > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] eBay ad - Ensisheim fragment - delete if necessary!
Dear Dave, Please notice, that Ensisheim is not the "oldest witnessed and recorded fall with material still existant" as you state on you eBay sales page. It has been replaced by Nogata which fell in 861 A.D. (see information from MetBase below). However, this does not reduce the value of Ensisheim as material of Nogata isn't available on the market. Joern ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ NOGATA, JAPAN, L6 CHONDRITE After detonations and a brilliant flash at night, a stone fell which was recovered from a hole in the ground the following morning. The stone of 472g in weight has been kept in a Shinto shrine since its fall. Petrography, mineralogy, and chemical composition, M.Shima et al., Meteoritics, 1980, 15, p.365 (abs.). Description, analysis, olivine Fa25.1, 19.45% total Fe, M.Shima et al., Meteoritics, 1983, 18, p.87. The date of fall is May 19, 861, the oldest known meteorite of which material is preserved, M.Shima and S.Murayama, Bull. Natl. Sci. Mus., Tokyo, 1992, Ser. E, Vol. 15, p.27. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: Dave Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Samstag, 6. März 2004 18:57An: metlistBetreff: [meteorite-list] eBay ad - Ensisheim fragment - delete if necessary! Hi I have a part slice of Ensisheim on eBay for sale. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3239&item=2230148857 thanks dave IMCA #0092 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here <>
AW: [meteorite-list] Suizhou TKW question
Dear Terry, The first information on the TKW (70 kg) was given in the Meteoritical Bulletin (Met. Bull. 65, Meteoritics, 1987, 22, p.161). Later, in 1994, Y.Chen and D.Wang (Meteoritics 29, p.886) published a larger TKW of approx. 260 kg. One can assume that the more recent information is the correct one. However, this is (un-confirmed) literature information. For basic meteorite data like type classifications or TKWs, I usually take the most recent information published. Because of the bibliographic character of MetBase, I keep even "out-dated" information in the "description & reference" section. This enables the user to evaluate the referenced literature on his/her own. If someone has more up-to-date information on the Suizhou TKW, I will be glad to reference such information in MetBase as well. Best Regards, Joern Koblitz ___ Joern Koblitz MetBase Editor The MetBase Library of Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences Benquestrasse 27 D-28209 Bremen, Germany phone: +49 421 24 100 24 fax: +49 421 24 100 99 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Februar 2004 23:27An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Betreff: [meteorite-list] Suizhou TKW question Greetings list: I recently purchased a 1502 gram beautiful half individual Suizhou and ordered the corresponding label from Meteoritelabels.com. When the label came in, I noticed that the TKW on the label was 260 kilos. I then checked Meteorites A-Z, which listed a TKW of 70+ kilos. The well known dealer that I purchased the stone from also had a TKW of 70 kilo's on his label. I then dropped Roman a note asking him where he got his 260 kilo TKW from. He sent the attached description from the Met Base that I have copied below. It is confusing in that it lists both 260 kilo's, then 70 kilo's, and then 260 kilo's. I surmise that the original fall find was 70 kilo's, and that it was adjusted upward at a later time after more was found. Does anyone on the list have an answer for this TKW question? Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks! Terry StarMeteorites MetBase for Windows 6.0 Detailed Meteorite Record Meteorite Name: Suizhou Country: China State/District: Hubei, Suizhou Co. Co-ordinates: 31N, 113E (approx.) Date of fall: 1986, April 15 (1852hrs) 260kg (approx.) 12 Total known weight: Number of pieces: Remarks: Classification: Type: Stone, L6 Shock Stage: S4 Weathering Stage: 0 Ordinary chondrite Mineral Olivine Fa24.6, Stddev. 0.3 Total iron: 21.2% Analyses: Pyroxene Fs21.0, Stddev. 1.4 plagioclase: Ab82.8 Or6.6 orthopyroxene: Fs21.0 Wo1.6 kamacite: 6.85% Ni, 0.86% Co Pairings: not known Synonyms: Sui Xian Description and references: About 12 individuals, total weight about 70kg, were found, Met. Bull. 65, Meteoritics, 1987, 22, p.161. Classification and mineral analysis, D.Wang and A.E.Rubin, Meteoritics, 1987, 22, p.97. Noble gas data, exposure age, O.Eugster et al., LPSC, 1989, 20, p.272 (abs.). Major and trace element data, shock facies, weathering state, G.W.Kallemeyn et al., GCA, 1989, 53, p.2747. Cosmogenic radionuclide data, G.Heusser, Meteoritics, 1989, 24, p.277 (abs.). Analysis of kamacite, A.E.Rubin, GCA, 1990, 54, p.1219. Spectral reflectance, W.Lin, Papers 15th Symp. Ant. Met., NIPR Tokyo, 1990, 55-1 (abs.). Noble gas isotopic abundances, cosmic-ray exposure age, 29.8 Ma, O.Eugster et al., GCA, 1993, 57, p.1115. Shock classification, A.E.Rubin,Meteoritics, 1994, 29, p.93. Boron abundance and isotopic composition, M.Zhai and D.M.Shaw, Meteoritics, 1994, 29, p.607; see also, M.Zhai et al., GCA, 1996, 60, p.4877. Listed, coordinates given as 3138'N, 11332'E, time of fall 18:52 hrs, total known weight approx. 260kg, Y.Chen and D.Wang, Meteoritics, 1994, 29, p.886. Sm and Gd isotopic composition, H.Hidaka et al., MAPS, 1997, 32, p.A59 (abs.). Composition and structure of hollandite in shock veins, X.Xie et al., Papers 25th Symp. Ant. Met., NIPR Tokyo, 2000, p.178 (abs.). Study of high-press
