Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi all, We all need to remember that the PVC pipes are there for a very good reason So mining/claim people know where their claims are located and other mining/claim people know where their claims are not. Some people live off of what they dig out of the ground, so if you pull up someone's claim markers, another person might encroach on their claim and dig up the real claim owner's livelihood (which could be taking food out of his family's mouth). So instead of pulling up or knocking down a PVC pipe, fill it with rocks, dirt, sticks or litter. Anything so the animals can't get in it. Or put its cap back on tightly if you find it. I had never heard of the PVC being a problem and I've been a rockhound for the last 15 years and have had a claim for the last 4 or 5 years. We (three of us) marked our claim boundaries with wooden posts that are around 6 feet long by 4 inches on a side. They are really heavy to carry by hand up in the mountains, so I can see why someone would want to use PVC instead. They are probably 1/4th the weight of the wooden posts. I have not heard whether PVC is legal or not in CO, but I just found this Note on a CO BLM web page: Note: It is BLM policy to not use perforated or uncapped pipe as a monument. http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/BLM_Programs/minerals/describing_mining_claims.h tml Most new mining claims in CO are on BLM land, so that's why I checked their website. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of John.L.Cabassi Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap G'Day Sonny and List I appreciate that update Sonny, I did not know that this was the norm. PVC can become very destructive if not used accordingly. Even though you cap it, if it's not glued, the caps can be removed. I like Yanan's suggestion on those already in place. But I find PVC pipes as an indicator to claim coordinates a poor use, they are flexible, very hard to drive into the ground. Yes, maybe they're easy to see from a distance being white, but there must be an alternative. I'd hate to see any legitimate prospector's claim be torn down because of this issue. There's lots of alternatives... Treated stakes, they last a long time, they're solid, a little bit of paint (red, white blue) or maybe just alternate your colors to your claim. It would solve a lot of problems. But everybody using white PVC does not solve the problem, but hey there's no problems only solutions. Alternative markers as I said earlier, treated posts 2 inches, hammered into the ground with some color coding. Your choice. I respect the miners, I respect their claims. I'm not going to pull out a PVC pipe because it's not covered; because it initially was but some less fortunate person has decided to remove the cover, for what means, I don't know. But claim markers are important. I'm fond of all parties living on this earth, be it birds, bacteria, plant life, the good old homosapien. There's enough room to live harmoniously as long as we think. Sometimes we obliverate the miniscule. Birds have every right to live on this planet, they play an important part. They transport seeds to other continents either on their feathers or through their droppings. It's a never ending ecological cycle. We then have those that are inclined to live within their confinements that don't migrate. Those are the ones that we should be concerned about. I I think this whole thread has been very informative. One that I have never considered before. Just my $1.50 AU John Cabassi - Johnno IMCA #2125 www.MeteoriteJunction.com MeteoriteHQ.Com (still under construction) Twitter: @meteoritejohnno http://facebook.com/MeteoriteJohnno -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of wahlpe...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:35 PM To: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Mark and List, I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining No worries, I never thought that you were implying that. Sorry if my post seemed that way. You are right about the man made hazards. There have been a number of tragic deaths in Nevada from people falling into abandoned open pit mines. What a cool story about saving the deer. How on earth did you ever get him out? Best Regards, Sonny -Original Message- From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: wahlperry wahlpe...@aol.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 11:56 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
I agree that the pipes should be filled in so that no creature can enter them. By removing claim markers, one claim holder may accuse another of jumping his claim. This could result in somebodies untimely demise. From what I have been told, some of these miners have the attitude of shooting first and asking questions later. Nearly everybody I have run into in the wilderness around here is packing and I am not talking about a lunchbox. Take Care, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Yes, Dennis.. Tee posts are a great idea. They are knotched and provide enough traction for critters to escape should the cap be taken or dislogged. I have friends that have claims in Colorado and they drive T posts into the claim corners then slide 3 capped PVC over the posts with their claim information in baggies, under the removable cap. They also stack a bunch of rocks around the bottom. Lot of work, but they want their markers to last a while. Dennis From: veom...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:33:49 -0500 To: nf11...@npgcable.com CC: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Random thought for the states with no pvc laws: can you put a long stick or something into the pipes to provide traction for the critters to get out? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com wrote: Hey Mark! When you find out about AZ, please post on Desertsunburn too! I thought about placing a rock in the tops of these pipes and lightly tapping it into place. However, I guess some of the older markers, like the kinds I've see are brittle and would simply fall apart. Then, I thought of duct tape. And, then thought that you not last very long in the sun. So, it just seems the PVC is not a good idea...period. Thanks for looking into it and I understood where Sonny was coming from. Jim - Original Message - From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers littering the Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently fallen victim to these pipes. Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the thousands A troubling find was that about half of those markers that HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point in time, now had those caps DISPLACED, on the ground nearby, said state biologist Christy Klinger. So the hazard from the pipe became re-established.Here is a link to the article. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/22/8955697-pvc-pipes-trapping-killing-birds-by-the-thousands Sorry for the incomplete post. I have a meteorite hunting trip planned today with a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers and hopefully find a few meteorites. : ) Sonny -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: minador mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Mark, everyone,It's too bad society needs rules but with so many humans overrrunning the wilderness, the best way to deal with it is work on a responsible collecting/mining/4-wheeling/detecting/etc. personal policy and showcase it for all to see - just like Sonny - then regulations are not zealously pursued and the offended find other causes more urgently in need and leave us alone.I hear you, but just like everything we seem to get involved in that is outdoors, a few bad apples can spoil it for the 90%+ of people who really are law abidng common sense toting individuals and that is where the regulators are forced to move, and in this case people that don't clean up after themselfs, maybe because they died, or some other possibly easily understandable reason.There are always people with different priorities and I agree a bird zealot may seem over the top for a meteorite hunter. But then again, a miner might not appreciate someone snooping over the above grounds rights of a meteorite hunter and if enough meteorite hunters are in areas with mining claims with enough rotten apples acting suspiciously in a place like Gold Basin for example, the PETA bird zealot becomes the miner and the meteorite hunter suffers.Who said, common sense is not so common. It's been that way since I was a kid metal detecting. Even going back to the 1960's Handbook of metal detectors (the only outdated book on detectors I found as a 9-year old in the library, the advice is cover your holes! same principle, same danger, different day ;-) Look at the bright side of things. It won't give the bird an opportunity to evolve into building human tube traps that at night, lost meteorite hunters who are so cold that they scamper in them for the crucial welcomed cover thanking their instincts and happily fall asleep a little cold, but not frozen, only to wake up in the warming sun to find themselves inside a tomb which allows them to see the sky but is to slippery to lift themselves out no matter how much they beat themselves against the solitary confinement, all they while slowly getting cooked alive in a roman style birdmade oven, until their shreiks of nervous terror are extinguished by overheating bodies and a sudden onset of a peaceful dehydration.Kindest wsiehsDoug-Original Message-From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.comTo: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; cetuspa cetu...@shaw.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comSent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:14 amSubject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi Count,They made it illegal to put up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anythingwith the old, markers that define mostly defunct claims (which should have beenan obvious outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think they should still allow pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that itmust be capped. And they can still allow people to remove (but leave in place)any uncapped markers (because they are important boundary markers). I think ablanket outlawing of any use of PVC as a marker is an over reaction. There is astrong anti-mining movement, and it is sad to give them
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers littering the Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently fallen victim to these pipes. Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the thousands A troubling find was that about half of those markers that HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point in time, now had those caps DISPLACED, on the ground nearby, said state biologist Christy Klinger. So the hazard from the pipe became re-established.Here is a link to the article. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/22/8955697-pvc-pipes-trapping-killing-birds-by-the-thousands Sorry for the incomplete post. I have a meteorite hunting trip planned today with a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers and hopefully find a few meteorites. : ) Sonny -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: minador mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hey Mark! When you find out about AZ, please post on Desertsunburn too! I thought about placing a rock in the tops of these pipes and lightly tapping it into place. However, I guess some of the older markers, like the kinds I've see are brittle and would simply fall apart. Then, I thought of duct tape. And, then thought that you not last very long in the sun. So, it just seems the PVC is not a good idea...period. Thanks for looking into it and I understood where Sonny was coming from. Jim - Original Message - From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers littering the Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently fallen victim to these pipes. Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the thousands A troubling find was that about half of those markers that HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Random thought for the states with no pvc laws: can you put a long stick or something into the pipes to provide traction for the critters to get out? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com wrote: Hey Mark! When you find out about AZ, please post on Desertsunburn too! I thought about placing a rock in the tops of these pipes and lightly tapping it into place. However, I guess some of the older markers, like the kinds I've see are brittle and would simply fall apart. Then, I thought of duct tape. And, then thought that you not last very long in the sun. So, it just seems the PVC is not a good idea...period. Thanks for looking into it and I understood where Sonny was coming from. Jim - Original Message - From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
I have friends that have claims in Colorado and they drive T posts into the claim corners then slide 3 capped PVC over the posts with their claim information in baggies, under the removable cap. They also stack a bunch of rocks around the bottom. Lot of work, but they want their markers to last a while. Dennis From: veom...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:33:49 -0500 To: nf11...@npgcable.com CC: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Random thought for the states with no pvc laws: can you put a long stick or something into the pipes to provide traction for the critters to get out? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com wrote: Hey Mark! When you find out about AZ, please post on Desertsunburn too! I thought about placing a rock in the tops of these pipes and lightly tapping it into place. However, I guess some of the older markers, like the kinds I've see are brittle and would simply fall apart. Then, I thought of duct tape. And, then thought that you not last very long in the sun. So, it just seems the PVC is not a good idea...period. Thanks for looking into it and I understood where Sonny was coming from. Jim - Original Message - From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Mark and List, I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining No worries, I never thought that you were implying that. Sorry if my post seemed that way. You are right about the man made hazards. There have been a number of tragic deaths in Nevada from people falling into abandoned open pit mines. What a cool story about saving the deer. How on earth did you ever get him out? Best Regards, Sonny -Original Message- From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: wahlperry wahlpe...@aol.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 11:56 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the vast empty desert. They should ask themselves, would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?. Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers littering the Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently fallen victim to these pipes. Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the thousands A troubling find was that about half of those markers that HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
G'Day Sonny and List I appreciate that update Sonny, I did not know that this was the norm. PVC can become very destructive if not used accordingly. Even though you cap it, if it's not glued, the caps can be removed. I like Yanan's suggestion on those already in place. But I find PVC pipes as an indicator to claim coordinates a poor use, they are flexible, very hard to drive into the ground. Yes, maybe they're easy to see from a distance being white, but there must be an alternative. I'd hate to see any legitimate prospector's claim be torn down because of this issue. There's lots of alternatives... Treated stakes, they last a long time, they're solid, a little bit of paint (red, white blue) or maybe just alternate your colors to your claim. It would solve a lot of problems. But everybody using white PVC does not solve the problem, but hey there's no problems only solutions. Alternative markers as I said earlier, treated posts 2 inches, hammered into the ground with some color coding. Your choice. I respect the miners, I respect their claims. I'm not going to pull out a PVC pipe because it's not covered; because it initially was but some less fortunate person has decided to remove the cover, for what means, I don't know. But claim markers are important. I'm fond of all parties living on this earth, be it birds, bacteria, plant life, the good old homosapien. There's enough room to live harmoniously as long as we think. Sometimes we obliverate the miniscule. Birds have every right to live on this planet, they play an important part. They transport seeds to other continents either on their feathers or through their droppings. It's a never ending ecological cycle. We then have those that are inclined to live within their confinements that don't migrate. Those are the ones that we should be concerned about. I I think this whole thread has been very informative. One that I have never considered before. Just my $1.50 AU John Cabassi - Johnno IMCA #2125 www.MeteoriteJunction.com MeteoriteHQ.Com (still under construction) Twitter: @meteoritejohnno http://facebook.com/MeteoriteJohnno -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of wahlpe...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:35 PM To: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Mark and List, I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining No worries, I never thought that you were implying that. Sorry if my post seemed that way. You are right about the man made hazards. There have been a number of tragic deaths in Nevada from people falling into abandoned open pit mines. What a cool story about saving the deer. How on earth did you ever get him out? Best Regards, Sonny -Original Message- From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: wahlperry wahlpe...@aol.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 11:56 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were anti-mining. So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Count, They made it illegal to put up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anything with the old, markers that define mostly defunct claims (which should have been an obvious outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think they should still allow pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that it must be capped. And they can still allow people to remove (but leave in place) any uncapped markers (because they are important boundary markers). I think a blanket outlawing of any use of PVC as a marker is an over reaction. There is a strong anti-mining movement, and it is sad to give them the excuse to remove responsible capped pipes, just because the pipe is PVC and they don't like miners. I think a common sense should be applied. Happy hunting, Mark From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: cetu...@shaw.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:51 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi List and nature lovers in general, Mining provides Nevada with the second largest contribution to our State's economy in terms of jobs and money. The finding of ore bodies and the staking and recording of those claims is a necessity. The use of white Schedule 40 PVC pipes evolved from first using Prince Albert tobacco tins to be the most efficient and economical way of marking a claim. Everybody I know likes birds. They look at them. They take pictures of them. They paint them, they count them, keep them as pets... and they even hunt and eat them. They are a necessity of life certainly. So, do we have to pass a state mining regulation requiring placing a $1.49 pvc cap on the pipe with a couple of taps of a hammer, or a swab of pvc glue and save the little birdies? Or is it better to marshal a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoples property markers? Jesus must weep with the stupidity. Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Forwarded Message- From: Paul Gessler Sent: Feb 17, 2012 8:06 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] PVC death trap That is truly one of the most amazing things I have heard. I see those all the time hunting meteorites and never thought much of them except that I noticed they disintegrate fast in the sun. Obviously not fast enough for these birds. Thank you very much for posting this and I too will leave none standing when I come across them in the future. What kind of birds were they? 14 is just sadly incredible! Paul Gessler __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap
Hi Mark, everyone, It's too bad society needs rules but with so many humans overrrunning the wilderness, the best way to deal with it is work on a responsible collecting/mining/4-wheeling/detecting/etc. personal policy and showcase it for all to see - just like Sonny - then regulations are not zealously pursued and the offended find other causes more urgently in need and leave us alone. I hear you, but just like everything we seem to get involved in that is outdoors, a few bad apples can spoil it for the 90%+ of people who really are law abidng common sense toting individuals and that is where the regulators are forced to move, and in this case people that don't clean up after themselfs, maybe because they died, or some other possibly easily understandable reason. There are always people with different priorities and I agree a bird zealot may seem over the top for a meteorite hunter. But then again, a miner might not appreciate someone snooping over the above grounds rights of a meteorite hunter and if enough meteorite hunters are in areas with mining claims with enough rotten apples acting suspiciously in a place like Gold Basin for example, the PETA bird zealot becomes the miner and the meteorite hunter suffers. Who said, common sense is not so common. It's been that way since I was a kid metal detecting. Even going back to the 1960's Handbook of metal detectors (the only outdated book on detectors I found as a 9-year old in the library, the advice is cover your holes! same principle, same danger, different day ;-) Look at the bright side of things. It won't give the bird an opportunity to evolve into building human tube traps that at night, lost meteorite hunters who are so cold that they scamper in them for the crucial welcomed cover thanking their instincts and happily fall asleep a little cold, but not frozen, only to wake up in the warming sun to find themselves inside a tomb which allows them to see the sky but is to slippery to lift themselves out no matter how much they beat themselves against the solitary confinement, all they while slowly getting cooked alive in a roman style birdmade oven, until their shreiks of nervous terror are extinguished by overheating bodies and a sudden onset of a peaceful dehydration. Kindest wsiehs Doug -Original Message- From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; cetuspa cetu...@shaw.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:14 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Count, They made it illegal to put up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anything with the old, markers that define mostly defunct claims (which should have been an obvious outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think they should still allow pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that it must be capped. And they can still allow people to remove (but leave in place) any uncapped markers (because they are important boundary markers). I think a blanket outlawing of any use of PVC as a marker is an over reaction. There is a strong anti-mining movement, and it is sad to give them the excuse to remove responsible capped pipes, just because the pipe is PVC and they don't like miners. I think a common sense should be applied. Happy hunting, Mark From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: cetu...@shaw.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:51 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi List and nature lovers in general, Mining provides Nevada with the second largest contribution to our State's economy in terms of jobs and money. The finding of ore bodies and the staking and recording of those claims is a necessity. The use of white Schedule 40 PVC pipes evolved from first using Prince Albert tobacco tins to be the most efficient and economical way of marking a claim. Everybody I know likes birds. They look at them. They take pictures of them. They paint them, they count them, keep them as pets... and they even hunt and eat them. They are a necessity of life certainly. So, do we have to pass a state mining regulation requiring placing a $1.49 pvc cap on the pipe with a couple of taps of a hammer, or a swab of pvc glue and save the little birdies? Or is it better to marshal a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoples property markers? Jesus must weep with the stupidity. Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Forwarded Message- From: Paul Gessler Sent: Feb 17, 2012 8:06 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] PVC death trap That is truly one of the most amazing things I have heard. I see those all the time hunting meteorites and never thought much of them except that I noticed they disintegrate fast in the sun. Obviously not fast enough
