Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[0xb100d]

Glad you like some of them Casey. I think getting people to call things by a 
name other than the chain name (Grin) is not likely, so looks like Grins are 
in. I like the name so it works for me. Why other chains don't use standard 
unit notation for smaller amounts is baffling to me so I'm happy with that too. 
That said.. Smirks, Winks, and Smiles are all great names for smaller units of 
something ;-)

Seeing as how people are happy with grin I don't see any sense in bikeshedding 
to rename the chain something else (though Ouroboros is my top pick 
otherwise!), I will point my energies elsewhere. What other components other 
than wallets and mining software might need titles?

I'll also do my best to take the premise of Grin that people have proposed and 
help flesh it out and polish it.

As far as website goes, I vote wholeheartedly to make it text based and simple, 
the exact opposite of all of these other crypto startups pages. I can't find it 
now but the bare mimblewimble  page  that has been up that linked only to the 
whitepapers and list pages was I think a perfect starting point. It's either 
that or go totally hogwarts in the design and I think that (while it would make 
good fun of the web 2.0 flashy take-me-serious trash that is standard these 
days) would be worse. happy to "design" something for that.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 9, 2017 1:09 AM
> UTC Time: September 9, 2017 8:09 AM
> From: ca...@rodarmor.com
> To: 0xb100d <0...@protonmail.com>, mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net 
> <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> Thanks for this list! I like quite a lot of them ^_^
>
> I think my favorites are Nemo, Daymark, Mani, Grall, Nasik, and Petrichorum 
> (added the um). Mu would be great for the smallest unit.
>
> This is like, bikeshedding the the nth degree, but it's fun.
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:46 AM 0xb100d <0...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Okay so I'm providing an unordered list of some ideas. These are essentially 
>> me just cruising wikipedia with some ideas about where to peek, mixed with 
>> stuff l already had in mind.
>>
>> I do not mean to bikeshed, far from it.  I think the names of these things 
>> is somewhat trivial. Proof being mimblewimble name itself. But I think that 
>> if we have a massive list some will clearly pop out to more than one of us 
>> as something truly special. I am big on myths, and I think that something as 
>> myth based as money deserves novel and interesting branding. I've definitely 
>> written more than enough here, but again, I am only doing so because I think 
>> the larger the selection the more likely we all are to quickly pick 
>> something that feels special. I did not open many books (just my sanskrit 
>> dictionary) and could have done a lot more. I am extremely enthusiastic and 
>> happy to contribute something of my wheelhouse, and I am putting myself out 
>> there as a UX/UI copy person. If we test the waters with some from this list 
>> it will be insanely easy to brand the rest of the components like wallets in 
>> the same vein.
>>
>> I think that the technology speaks for itself if you read the whitepaper(s), 
>> which is why I am not as worried about the premise copy. I think what 
>> Ignotus has written nails it pretty well. I will think about it as well, but 
>> couldn't help but channel my enthusiasm specifically to names as wordplay 
>> and such really gets me going. I hope this list will at least inspire 
>> something. Again forgive its monstrosity. Let me know what you think.
>>
>> p.s. I really like GRIN... but some of the following had me thinking about 
>> cool chain names... also I think we should stick to metric units but also 
>> have pet names for subunits. I very much dislike bitcoin and ethereum 
>> subunits, but I would appreciate them more if they were nicknames and not 
>> the default signifiers. I think the mystique and playfulness of MIMWIM 
>> warrants lots of weirdness and we can take advantage of that as much as we 
>> want in the nomenclature, but I think we all agree so far that standardized 
>> subunits are a nobrainer. There are a lot of famous wizards/alchemists who 
>> could be subunits for example though.
>>
>> Here we go
>>
>> Greenwich - Standard time. Call it  GREENs like MONEY. Has something of a 
>> harry potter vibe since it's british. Sounds like GRIN too. BBC radio 
>> stations broadcast *PIPS to mark the precise start of each hour.
>>
>> EPHEMERIS - Used to tell astrological time. EPH for short.
>>
>> E

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[0xb100d]

etty cool. isaac newton, descartes and others believed in corpuscles.

Silphium - plant whose heart shaped seeds may have been source of our current 
heart symbol, was put on Cyrenian silver coins in the 6th centure BCE.

Kallisti - Written on a golden apple by Eris to create chaos amongst beautiful 
godesses.  Related to discordianism which is a kind of funny mordern magical 
sect.
 -QUINCE - another middle eastern fruit called a golden apple. I like this 
name for a currency. has our QUI in it too.
 -Pomo d'oro or just POMODORO is tomato in italian but means golden apple.
 -HESPER for Hesperidium which is an allusion to golden apples.

PAIN - means bread

Spagyr or spagyric - take apart and put back together

COR - heart

Spintria - roman brothel tokens

Gettone - Token in italian. Looks like get one.

Jeton - 13-17th century europena token.

Calculi - roman value stones

Wampum - Native American shell currency. Mimblewimble's Wampum

Freeba as in Free Banking 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking#History_of_free_banking
 -Meulen after Henry Meulen who wrote about individual right to bank and. 
MEU for short.
 -Hayek who wrote The Denationalization of Money

FRAM - Frvilous Amuesements

Mabignogi - MAB for short. Earliest british literature. Means Juvenile 
Amusements. aka young adult literature

CORNUCOPIA - mystical vessels of never ending contents. COR for short, which is 
latin for heart.
 -SAMPO like cornucopia
 -GROTTI - magical grindstone

MONAD

JNA- Sanskrit for knowledge
Vidya - Sanskrit for correct knowledge
RATNA - sanskrit for gemstone. RAT for short, which is harry pottery. OWL could 
be a good currency name.

Pendre - etymology of pendant. AMUlet would be cool too. or TALIS as in 
Talisman.

Altar - without the magical connotation sounds like a sci-fi currency. Has 
bonus of being shortened as ALT. Fully embrace the ALT coin. Love it.


just brainstorming
Mining Software

MAKARA - guardian fish deity in hindu mythology
MERCURY - used in alchemy and is a messenger
ALCHEMY - process of refining low level things into higher level order and 
wisdom/value.
TRANSMUTE
ABULAFIA - mystic and fictional computer
BLAZON - coat of arms/shield
ABACUS

--
Wallet software

HERMETICA/HERMETICUM - perfectly sealed and secret.
MANSAROVAR - "mind lake" Holy lake at foot of Tibetan mountain.
RAS - Indian ford for juice.
CAULDRON

There are also quite a few references JK Rowling makes that are of actual 
mythical and historical reference, and so would not be copyrighted. I will look 
into it. BASILISKS and such are not her invention.

This is really the tip of the iceberg. Once I get some feedback theming other 
components of the framework will be even better. Constraint is good creativity 
fuel.

have a magical day
0x-art

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 3:25 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 10:25 PM
> From: igno.pever...@protonmail.com
> To: 0xb100d <0...@protonmail.com>
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> Sorry for jumping the gun too fast! I've added Quipu and Talent (Fing reminds 
> me too much of an insult), hopefully it's not too late. And don't let that 
> stop you, I'm fairly sure we'll need to name quite a few other things 
> (wallet, mining software, etc).
>
> - Igno
>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
>> From: 0...@protonmail.com
>> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>>
>> It looks like I'm a bit late as the poll seems to already be up. I am a 
>> linguistics guy and really wanted to brainstorm some good naming ideas 
>> before submitting some. Seeing as how quickly things are moving I hope I can 
>> submit a couple of ideas that came to me in the shower last night and maybe 
>> there will be a chance to contribute further later.
>>
>> 1. Grin should be its own thing, not Bitcoin 2.0. As far as worrying about 
>> how to get in... time time to learn to mine my friend. Everyone is staff on 
>> this ship, no passengers.
>> 2. Quid is confusing, like stated above, it's like calling it Bucks.
>> 3. I somewhat liked ingots.
>> 4. Quipu is the mayan knot notation. It looks a little like quid. The mayan 
>> quipus were long term exact value notation, and I like the idea of value 
>> being exchanged as knots in a chain.
>> 5. This one came to me maybe I'm an idiot. What if we call the tokens FING. 
>> Like finger, as in a finger pointing to the moon. The fing(er) is not the 
>> value it is just symbolic 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Ignotus Peverell]

Sorry for jumping the gun too fast! I've added Quipu and Talent (Fing reminds 
me too much of an insult), hopefully it's not too late. And don't let that stop 
you, I'm fairly sure we'll need to name quite a few other things (wallet, 
mining software, etc).

- Igno

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
> From: 0...@protonmail.com
> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> It looks like I'm a bit late as the poll seems to already be up. I am a 
> linguistics guy and really wanted to brainstorm some good naming ideas before 
> submitting some. Seeing as how quickly things are moving I hope I can submit 
> a couple of ideas that came to me in the shower last night and maybe there 
> will be a chance to contribute further later.
>
> 1. Grin should be its own thing, not Bitcoin 2.0. As far as worrying about 
> how to get in... time time to learn to mine my friend. Everyone is staff on 
> this ship, no passengers.
> 2. Quid is confusing, like stated above, it's like calling it Bucks.
> 3. I somewhat liked ingots.
> 4. Quipu is the mayan knot notation. It looks a little like quid. The mayan 
> quipus were long term exact value notation, and I like the idea of value 
> being exchanged as knots in a chain.
> 5. This one came to me maybe I'm an idiot. What if we call the tokens FING. 
> Like finger, as in a finger pointing to the moon. The fing(er) is not the 
> value it is just symbolic of what is valuable. Added bonus, say out loud "I 
> need you to give me some fing" or "I am owed many fings! 25 fings!" it sounds 
> like a thick british accent asking for "things" and I think that is hilarious.
> 6. A "talent" is an ancient unit of mass 
> (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_(weight)) and a talent of gold was 
> gold that weighed as much as one person. I think that is awesome.
> 7. Time related units could  be interesting (delving more now) as they say 
> time is money. It would be cool if our money was named after time.
>
> I agree with earlier statements that we do not need to brand too heavilly to  
> HP stuff, since it can get stale and incur  copyright violations. But I do 
> think that the fun, magical, youthful vibe should carry over. I think that MW 
> is a truly fantastic way to store and exchange of value, and I hope to use it 
> heavily in the future. It would be great if the currency I used reminded me 
> to be light and fun and magical.
>
> I don't know what the time frame is by I hope if there is some time you will 
> let me do some more research and  come up with some more magical options. My 
> background is linguistics, and I've also studied academically mysticism and 
> occultism, so it would be a great honor to be able to apply some of that to 
> the project (especially since my engineering background is lacking). Going to 
> spend the day on it.
>
> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 7, 2017 1:25 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:25 PM
>> From: leishm...@gmail.com
>> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>
>> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net
>>
>> Well said Jackson. I'm looking forward to a fresh start and pleasant 
>> alternative to the ICO, get rich, hedge fund mania that's happening.
>>
>> I hope we can focus on building a beautiful, open source project that helps 
>> solve a problem in the world.
>>
>> I also agree with the idea of outlining principles for the future of the 
>> technology. Hopefully we can learn from Bitcoin and solidify these 
>> principles early on to lower the chance of political fractures in the future.
>>
>> -Alex
>>
>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:40, Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Rhett,
>>>
>>> I have to strongly disagree with the "Bitcoin 2.0" approach - it seems like 
>>> that approach is in fashion right now and the politics involved are just a 
>>> distraction I don't think a fledgling project like Grin needs.
>>>
>>> Additionally, I'd argue that the current Bitcoin token distribution is not 
>>> something anyone would want to "snapshot" or "copy" for their new chain. 
>>> You have the large number of frozen Satoshi coins, multitudes of 
>>> hacked/stolen coins that may still be in the hands of bad actors, and a 
>>> large centralization of coins amongst big mine

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[0xb100d]

It looks like I'm a bit late as the poll seems to already be up. I am a 
linguistics guy and really wanted to brainstorm some good naming ideas before 
submitting some. Seeing as how quickly things are moving I hope I can submit a 
couple of ideas that came to me in the shower last night and maybe there will 
be a chance to contribute further later.

1. Grin should be its own thing, not Bitcoin 2.0. As far as worrying about how 
to get in... time time to learn to mine my friend. Everyone is staff on this 
ship, no passengers.
2. Quid is confusing, like stated above, it's like calling it Bucks.
3. I somewhat liked ingots.
4. Quipu is the mayan knot notation. It looks a little like quid. The mayan 
quipus were long term exact value notation, and I like the idea of value being 
exchanged as knots in a chain.
5. This one came to me maybe I'm an idiot. What if we call the tokens FING. 
Like finger, as in a finger pointing to the moon. The fing(er) is not the value 
it is just symbolic of what is valuable. Added bonus, say out loud "I need you 
to give me some fing" or "I am owed many fings! 25 fings!" it sounds like a 
thick british accent asking for "things" and I think that is hilarious.
6. A "talent" is an ancient unit of mass 
(https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_(weight)) and a talent of gold was 
gold that weighed as much as one person. I think that is awesome.
7. Time related units could  be interesting (delving more now) as they say time 
is money. It would be cool if our money was named after time.

I agree with earlier statements that we do not need to brand too heavilly to  
HP stuff, since it can get stale and incur  copyright violations. But I do 
think that the fun, magical, youthful vibe should carry over. I think that MW 
is a truly fantastic way to store and exchange of value, and I hope to use it 
heavily in the future. It would be great if the currency I used reminded me to 
be light and fun and magical.

I don't know what the time frame is by I hope if there is some time you will 
let me do some more research and  come up with some more magical options. My 
background is linguistics, and I've also studied academically mysticism and 
occultism, so it would be a great honor to be able to apply some of that to the 
project (especially since my engineering background is lacking). Going to spend 
the day on it.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

> -------- Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 1:25 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:25 PM
> From: leishm...@gmail.com
> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net
>
> Well said Jackson. I'm looking forward to a fresh start and pleasant 
> alternative to the ICO, get rich, hedge fund mania that's happening.
>
> I hope we can focus on building a beautiful, open source project that helps 
> solve a problem in the world.
>
> I also agree with the idea of outlining principles for the future of the 
> technology. Hopefully we can learn from Bitcoin and solidify these principles 
> early on to lower the chance of political fractures in the future.
>
> -Alex
>
> On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:40, Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Rhett,
>>
>> I have to strongly disagree with the "Bitcoin 2.0" approach - it seems like 
>> that approach is in fashion right now and the politics involved are just a 
>> distraction I don't think a fledgling project like Grin needs.
>>
>> Additionally, I'd argue that the current Bitcoin token distribution is not 
>> something anyone would want to "snapshot" or "copy" for their new chain. You 
>> have the large number of frozen Satoshi coins, multitudes of hacked/stolen 
>> coins that may still be in the hands of bad actors, and a large 
>> centralization of coins amongst big miners. Snapshotting the existing chain 
>> only acts to "self-serve" the existing Bitcoiner space and I don't see how 
>> that's going to improve accessibility or adoption of the Grin network in any 
>> positive way (most Bitcoiners would probably dump it for a profit as they 
>> already have Bitcoin Cash)
>>
>> To stick to the values that Andrew and others have outlined, I think it's 
>> best for Grin to remain its own network/chain and strive to provide a 
>> scalable technology stack that avoids some of the pitfalls other currencies 
>> such as Bitcoins have faced by building on top of those learnings.
>>
>> Lastly (and maybe this is the socialist in me talking), I prefer not to 
>> think of involvement in Grin as "investment" for personal gain... I really 
>> think this whole industry needs t

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Alexander Leishman]

Well said Jackson. I'm looking forward to a fresh start and pleasant 
alternative to the ICO, get rich, hedge fund mania that's happening. 

I hope we can focus on building a beautiful, open source project that helps 
solve a problem in the world. 

I also agree with the idea of outlining principles for the future of the 
technology. Hopefully we can learn from Bitcoin and solidify these principles 
early on to lower the chance of political fractures in the future. 


-Alex


> On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:40, Jackson Palmer  wrote:
> 
> Hey Rhett, 
> 
> I have to strongly disagree with the "Bitcoin 2.0" approach - it seems like 
> that approach is in fashion right now and the politics involved are just a 
> distraction I don't think a fledgling project like Grin needs. 
> 
> Additionally, I'd argue that the current Bitcoin token distribution is not 
> something anyone would want to "snapshot" or "copy" for their new chain. You 
> have the large number of frozen Satoshi coins, multitudes of hacked/stolen 
> coins that may still be in the hands of bad actors, and a large 
> centralization of coins amongst big miners. Snapshotting the existing chain 
> only acts to "self-serve" the existing Bitcoiner space and I don't see how 
> that's going to improve accessibility or adoption of the Grin network in any 
> positive way (most Bitcoiners would probably dump it for a profit as they 
> already have Bitcoin Cash)
> 
> To stick to the values that Andrew and others have outlined, I think it's 
> best for Grin to remain its own network/chain and strive to provide a 
> scalable technology stack that avoids some of the pitfalls other currencies 
> such as Bitcoins have faced by building on top of those learnings. 
> 
> Lastly (and maybe this is the socialist in me talking), I prefer not to think 
> of involvement in Grin as "investment" for personal gain... I really think 
> this whole industry needs to focus more on building solid open-source 
> technology as the starting point, if it ever wants to actually revolutionize 
> the digital currency space. I really hope through smart messaging/community 
> building that Grin can be positioned as something more than just a Bitcoin 
> 2.0 get rich quick scheme. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Jackson.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017, at 09:57 AM, Rhett Creighton wrote:
>> Hi MimbleWimblers,
>> 
>> I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with zero 
>> supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I understand 
>> that the address scheme is different, but there are several ways to solve 
>> this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a non-zero balance in 
>> a genesis block and treat these addresses similar to the way other 
>> currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.
>> 
>> Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this prewallet 
>> state over a long time, there could be a short time window where people must 
>> sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.  After bootstrapping the 
>> initial supply, the blockchain could start running as a pure MimbleWimble 
>> implementation and nodes could even choose to prune the initial bitcoin 
>> bootstrapping blocks.
>> 
>> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of 
>> Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain 
>> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.
>> 
>> People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.  Bitcoin2.0 
>> might only start with 10% of the market cap of Bitcoin Legacy.
>> 
>> I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but I 
>> think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a project 
>> like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of MimbleWimble by 
>> several years.
>> 
>> As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in MimbleWimble.  
>> However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a really tough spot of 
>> trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6 months, the coin still has a 
>> 200% yearly inflation rate.  After 1 year, it's at 100% yearly inflation.  
>> Will demand outpace that?  Maybe, but it's a much tougher spot to be in than 
>> if supply was bootstrapped off of the Bitcoin blockchain.
>> 
>> Additionally, I don't think it's a stretch to think of MimbleWimble as 
>> Bitcoin 2.0 technology.  It has many of the same goals as the original 
>> Bitcoin with advancements that weren't available at the time and a much 
>> nicer codebase.
>> 
>> -Rhett
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Ignotus Peverell 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a good idea 
>> to start thinking of outward communication. We want to have enough time to 
>> prepare so when the time comes, we don't get confused with the thousands of 
>> other projects in this noisy space, and have a chance to voice our strengths 
>> and differences. Messaging can 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Jackson Palmer]

Hey Rhett, 

I have to strongly disagree with the "Bitcoin 2.0" approach - it seems
like that approach is in fashion right now and the politics involved are
just a distraction I don't think a fledgling project like Grin needs.
Additionally, I'd argue that the current Bitcoin token distribution is
not something anyone would want to "snapshot" or "copy" for their new
chain. You have the large number of frozen Satoshi coins, multitudes of
hacked/stolen coins that may still be in the hands of bad actors, and a
large centralization of coins amongst big miners. Snapshotting the
existing chain only acts to "self-serve" the existing Bitcoiner space
and I don't see how that's going to improve accessibility or adoption of
the Grin network in any positive way (most Bitcoiners would probably
dump it for a profit as they already have Bitcoin Cash)
To stick to the values that Andrew and others have outlined, I think
it's best for Grin to remain its own network/chain and strive to provide
a scalable technology stack that avoids some of the pitfalls other
currencies such as Bitcoins have faced by building on top of those
learnings.
Lastly (and maybe this is the socialist in me talking), I prefer not to
think of involvement in Grin as "investment" for personal gain... I
really think this whole industry needs to focus more on building solid
open-source technology as the starting point, if it ever wants to
actually revolutionize the digital currency space. I really hope through
smart messaging/community building that Grin can be positioned as
something more than just a Bitcoin 2.0 get rich quick scheme.
Cheers,
*Jackson.*


On Thu, Sep 7, 2017, at 09:57 AM, Rhett Creighton wrote:
> Hi MimbleWimblers,
> 
> I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with
> zero supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I
> understand that the address scheme is different, but there are several
> ways to solve this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a
> non-zero balance in a genesis block and treat these addresses similar
> to the way other currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.> 
> Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this
> prewallet state over a long time, there could be a short time window
> where people must sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.
> After bootstrapping the initial supply, the blockchain could start
> running as a pure MimbleWimble implementation and nodes could even
> choose to prune the initial bitcoin bootstrapping blocks.> 
> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out
> of Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.> 
> People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.
> Bitcoin2.0 might only start with 10% of the market cap of
> Bitcoin Legacy.> 
> I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but
> I think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a
> project like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of
> MimbleWimble by several years.> 
> As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in
> MimbleWimble.  However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a
> really tough spot of trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6
> months, the coin still has a 200% yearly inflation rate.  After 1
> year, it's at 100% yearly inflation.  Will demand outpace that?
> Maybe, but it's a much tougher spot to be in than if supply was
> bootstrapped off of the Bitcoin blockchain.> 
> Additionally, I don't think it's a stretch to think of MimbleWimble as
> Bitcoin 2.0 technology.  It has many of the same goals as the original
> Bitcoin with advancements that weren't available at the time and a
> much nicer codebase.> 
> -Rhett
> 
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Ignotus Peverell
>  wrote:>> Hi all,
>> 
>> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a
>> good idea to start thinking of outward communication. We want to
>> have enough time to prepare so when the time comes, we don't get
>> confused with the thousands of other projects in this noisy space,
>> and have a chance to voice our strengths and differences. Messaging
>> can also take time to refine. Now, as I know words like
>> "narratives" (yeastplume used it first, not me :P) can make some
>> developers' eyes glaze over, I'll start with something more fun and
>> friendly: naming [2].>> 
>> We need names for a few things:
>>  1. Our blockchain type. I'm happy to keep using MimbleWimble here. I
>> know that technically, the Grin blockchain will have quite a bit
>> more than just what's in the Jedusor white paper, but I think at
>> a high level it's a good approximation. Some people are also
>> already familiar with it and heard the name.
>>  2. Our implementation. I'm not unhappy with grin but I'm not opposed
>> to renaming if too many folks are strongly against it.

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Philbert Wallace]

I haven't committed code yet. However, I agree with Andrew's well-phrased
statements about making privacy cheap and accessible. I think that is a
valiant goal and one that many people can rally around. That being said,
and really my only hesitation with going that direction is that it would be
nice if there was a way in which we can actually measure our progress
towards achieving that goal. What defines "cheap"? What defines
"accessible"? and from what/whose perspective?

Given that it might be hard to objectively quantify these things such that
the measurement is equally applicable to all users of the system, one
thought I had instead is: perhaps we should  try to identify a (small) set
of overarching *values/principles* that we stand for and/or a "final ideal
state of the world" that we're trying to achieve (knowing that we are never
going to exactly get there). The features of our network/economy such as
decentralization, cheap and accessible privacy, etc are then (hopefully)
obvious side effects of our values. For example:

"We seek to build a world where:

   - an individual's financial actions are private by default,
   - spending less than one earns is rewarded through increased purchasing
   power,
   - wealth is acquired honorably and transferred voluntarily
   - ... "

As much as we want to, we are are not going to be able to capture all
people's interest/investment/time, at least not initially, as there will
always be some that don't agree with our values. Instead, perhaps we might
want to focus on capturing the steadfast and principled dedication of a
growing core group of good people who will stick with the project for a
decade or more with very few defectors. Yes, that's a long time, but we
can't deny that there is already a fair amount of fragmentation in the
crypto space when it isn't even a decade old yet. One way to deter
short-term players might be to include mechanisms (whether formal or
informal) that very clearly prefer to reward longer-term thinking over
short-term thinking.

Regardless, I think that Igno is smart to be starting this discussion now!
Thank you Igno for your continued contributions and leadership!

Lastly, I do think that there are a lot of bitcoiners that are distinctly
interested in MW/Grin more than they are interested in many/any of the
other coins/networks out there. I'm not sure that snapshotting the bitcoin
ledger and grandfathering them in is the right move though -- for what its
worth, I lean towards the no-ICO, no-premine direction.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Greg Sanders  wrote:

> > Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
> Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.
>
> I find this to be verging on fraud(worse than Bcash). Tricking people into
> buying something by "borrowing" branding is deceptive and will lead to
> people making decisions they don't understand the implications to.
>
> If people want to buy into a MW coin, that's great and their choice, but
> their eyes need to be open to the fact that it's an entirely new economy
> and network, with even more primitive ecosystem than Bitcoin.
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Rhett Creighton 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi MimbleWimblers,
>>
>> I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with zero
>> supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I
>> understand that the address scheme is different, but there are several ways
>> to solve this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a non-zero
>> balance in a genesis block and treat these addresses similar to the way
>> other currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.
>>
>> Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this prewallet
>> state over a long time, there could be a short time window where people
>> must sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.  After bootstrapping
>> the initial supply, the blockchain could start running as a pure
>> MimbleWimble implementation and nodes could even choose to prune the
>> initial bitcoin bootstrapping blocks.
>>
>> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
>> Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
>> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.
>>
>> People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.  Bitcoin2.0
>> might only start with 10% of the market cap of Bitcoin Legacy.
>>
>> I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but I
>> think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a project
>> like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of MimbleWimble by
>> several years.
>>
>> As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in MimbleWimble.
>> However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a really tough spot of
>> trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6 months, the coin still has a
>> 200% 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Greg Sanders]

> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.

I find this to be verging on fraud(worse than Bcash). Tricking people into
buying something by "borrowing" branding is deceptive and will lead to
people making decisions they don't understand the implications to.

If people want to buy into a MW coin, that's great and their choice, but
their eyes need to be open to the fact that it's an entirely new economy
and network, with even more primitive ecosystem than Bitcoin.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Rhett Creighton  wrote:

> Hi MimbleWimblers,
>
> I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with zero
> supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I
> understand that the address scheme is different, but there are several ways
> to solve this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a non-zero
> balance in a genesis block and treat these addresses similar to the way
> other currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.
>
> Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this prewallet
> state over a long time, there could be a short time window where people
> must sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.  After bootstrapping
> the initial supply, the blockchain could start running as a pure
> MimbleWimble implementation and nodes could even choose to prune the
> initial bitcoin bootstrapping blocks.
>
> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
> Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.
>
> People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.  Bitcoin2.0
> might only start with 10% of the market cap of Bitcoin Legacy.
>
> I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but I
> think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a project
> like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of MimbleWimble by
> several years.
>
> As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in MimbleWimble.
> However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a really tough spot of
> trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6 months, the coin still has a
> 200% yearly inflation rate.  After 1 year, it's at 100% yearly inflation.
> Will demand outpace that?  Maybe, but it's a much tougher spot to be in
> than if supply was bootstrapped off of the Bitcoin blockchain.
>
> Additionally, I don't think it's a stretch to think of MimbleWimble as
> Bitcoin 2.0 technology.  It has many of the same goals as the original
> Bitcoin with advancements that weren't available at the time and a much
> nicer codebase.
>
> -Rhett
>
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Ignotus Peverell <
> igno.pever...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a good
>> idea to start thinking of outward communication. We want to have enough
>> time to prepare so when the time comes, we don't get confused with the
>> thousands of other projects in this noisy space, and have a chance to voice
>> our strengths and differences. Messaging can also take time to refine. Now,
>> as I know words like "narratives" (yeastplume used it first, not me :P) can
>> make some developers' eyes glaze over, I'll start with something more fun
>> and friendly: naming [2].
>>
>> We need names for a few things:
>>
>>1. Our blockchain type. I'm happy to keep using MimbleWimble here. I
>>know that technically, the Grin blockchain will have quite a bit more than
>>just what's in the Jedusor white paper, but I think at a high level it's a
>>good approximation. Some people are also already familiar with it and 
>> heard
>>the name.
>>2. Our implementation. I'm not unhappy with grin but I'm not opposed
>>to renaming if too many folks are strongly against it.
>>3. Our coin. We have nothing so far here so we need to find a name.
>>My first inclination would be to accept propositions for names as replies
>>to this email, and then run a poll online. Sounds good as a process? We
>>likely need another name for smallest denominations too.
>>
>> To draw a parallel, in the Ethereum world 1) is Ethereum, 2) is Parity or
>> geth, 3) is Ether/Wei.
>>
>>
>> Now for the messaging and narratives. In my experience (which is a lot
>> more shallow in that domain), we want to outline our strengths and
>> differences to formulate a value proposition. From there we can distill
>> messages of various lengths, adapted to different support (one-liner title,
>> one paragraph article intro, full website, etc). And ideally, we'd have
>> opportunities to try these messages in various environments to see how they
>> work and incrementally improve them.
>>
>> So I'll start with a mixed bag of strengths and differences in no
>> particular order and maybe we can 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Rhett Creighton]

Hi MimbleWimblers,

I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with zero
supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I
understand that the address scheme is different, but there are several ways
to solve this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a non-zero
balance in a genesis block and treat these addresses similar to the way
other currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.

Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this prewallet
state over a long time, there could be a short time window where people
must sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.  After bootstrapping
the initial supply, the blockchain could start running as a pure
MimbleWimble implementation and nodes could even choose to prune the
initial bitcoin bootstrapping blocks.

Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.

People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.  Bitcoin2.0
might only start with 10% of the market cap of Bitcoin Legacy.

I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but I
think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a project
like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of MimbleWimble by
several years.

As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in MimbleWimble.
However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a really tough spot of
trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6 months, the coin still has a
200% yearly inflation rate.  After 1 year, it's at 100% yearly inflation.
Will demand outpace that?  Maybe, but it's a much tougher spot to be in
than if supply was bootstrapped off of the Bitcoin blockchain.

Additionally, I don't think it's a stretch to think of MimbleWimble as
Bitcoin 2.0 technology.  It has many of the same goals as the original
Bitcoin with advancements that weren't available at the time and a much
nicer codebase.

-Rhett

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Ignotus Peverell <
igno.pever...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a good idea
> to start thinking of outward communication. We want to have enough time to
> prepare so when the time comes, we don't get confused with the thousands of
> other projects in this noisy space, and have a chance to voice our
> strengths and differences. Messaging can also take time to refine. Now, as
> I know words like "narratives" (yeastplume used it first, not me :P) can
> make some developers' eyes glaze over, I'll start with something more fun
> and friendly: naming [2].
>
> We need names for a few things:
>
>1. Our blockchain type. I'm happy to keep using MimbleWimble here. I
>know that technically, the Grin blockchain will have quite a bit more than
>just what's in the Jedusor white paper, but I think at a high level it's a
>good approximation. Some people are also already familiar with it and heard
>the name.
>2. Our implementation. I'm not unhappy with grin but I'm not opposed
>to renaming if too many folks are strongly against it.
>3. Our coin. We have nothing so far here so we need to find a name. My
>first inclination would be to accept propositions for names as replies to
>this email, and then run a poll online. Sounds good as a process? We likely
>need another name for smallest denominations too.
>
> To draw a parallel, in the Ethereum world 1) is Ethereum, 2) is Parity or
> geth, 3) is Ether/Wei.
>
>
> Now for the messaging and narratives. In my experience (which is a lot
> more shallow in that domain), we want to outline our strengths and
> differences to formulate a value proposition. From there we can distill
> messages of various lengths, adapted to different support (one-liner title,
> one paragraph article intro, full website, etc). And ideally, we'd have
> opportunities to try these messages in various environments to see how they
> work and incrementally improve them.
>
> So I'll start with a mixed bag of strengths and differences in no
> particular order and maybe we can figure out a way to go from there. If
> some people have more experience in how to go about this and a good process
> to get there, by all means please chime in.
>
>- Strong anonymity provided by obfuscating amounts, sources and
>destinations and removing data over time.
>- Great scalability as most blockchain data gets removed, without
>compromising security (the magic part).
>- A diverse community of developers and cryptographers (no control
>from a single entity).
>- A brand new, clean (relatively) and modern blockchain implementation
>with few fundamental primitives.
>- A Harry Potter theme that, while quirky, has personality (obviously,
>I may be biased).
>- No ICO, pre-mine or funny business. We may still need to find a way
>to get funding 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Andrew Poelstra]

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 09:57:27AM +0100, Yeastplume wrote:
> 
> More humbly; I agree ‘quid' is a good word, it rolls off the tongue much 
> better than ‘pound’, so saying ‘thirty quid’ feels more natural than ‘thirty 
> pounds’. Unfortunately it very much remains in common usage in the U.K. I’m 
> not entirely sure how to describe this phenomenon, so without trying to be 
> smart, let me give you an example: Imagine I’m from England and I’ve just 
> made a serious suggestion to you, an American, that the currency should be 
> called ‘bucks’… as in “I’ll give you thirty bucks for lunch”. Nobody says 
> ‘bucks’ in the UK unless they’re emulating Americans for comedy value, so it 
> all sounds jolly amusing, and I give you a few other examples of how the word 
> ‘bucks’ can be used in reference to the crypto currency. Let your reaction to 
> that suggestion wash over you for a bit, (perhaps smile and nod a bit if 
> you’re being polite), and that’s precisely the reaction you’ll get from 
> anyone in the UK or Ireland at the suggestion the currency should be called a 
> ‘quid’.
> 
> With apologies
> -YP

I think this is a pretty serious confusion, and that we should avoid "quid" for 
this reason.

-- 
Andrew Poelstra
Mathematics Department, Blockstream
Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
Web:   https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

"A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
 who can never find their peace,
 whether north or south or west or east"
   --Joanna Newsom



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Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[John Tromp]

dear imblers,

I'm happy with the name "grin" for both the implementation and the coin.
Naming of the smallest unit is not that important, and we could just go
with nanogrin if we deviate from the 10^-8 subdivision by adopting the more
metric compatible 10^-9 subdivision. Otherwise, I'm also fine with a
"jedusor" in honor of the MW creator.

The coin's best two properties are its prunability, leading to greater
on-chain scalability, and fungibility, the fact that all transactions
look alike, which provides strong anonymity with no additional effort.

I would not advertise "centralization resistance" due to PoW choice,
since the mining landscape will probably look a lot like that of Ethereum,
which is still dominated by huge GPU stocked datacenters in China.
The main strengths of Cuckoo Cycle are that it, like MW itself, is
elegant in design and scales well. And it lowers the barrier to entry
for miners. We don't know how it plays out long-term though, in terms
of mining performance gap between commodity and custom hardware.

One issue that hasn't been brought up yet, is whether the grin coin
will have any form of funding. In the early days of bitcoin, thanks to
its obscurity, developers could be compensated simply by mining
themselves. Charlie Lee arguably didn't need much compensation for
tweaking and relaunching Tenebrix as Litecoin.

Ideally, development could be sustained as a voluntary effort with some
developers soliciting donations to support their contributions.

If a more consistent form of funding is desired, then perhaps ZCash'
model of siphoning off some small percentage of block rewards in the
first few years is the least offensive model. A modest percentage like
1% would be a lot more acceptable than their 20% though, and more akin
to what miner developers charge as a fee. Who gets to spend these
funds and how can become quite
tricky though...

regards,
-John

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Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Yeastplume]

WIth respect to a code of conduct, in my opinion if anything much more detailed 
than ‘Don’t be a dick,’ genuinely needs to be explained to the team, then I’ll 
find another team. Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1357/ 


A foundation is a minefield that needs a lot of careful discussion and 
consideration. I think it’s a little bit too early to declare one but 
discussions should start in the not too far distant future, as I think one will 
be highly desirable for legal protection and possibly funding. By the way, 
nothing is stopping anybody from taking the code and creating whatever business 
or organisation or ‘foundation’ they want around it, but nobody is forced to 
pay any attention to it if they don’t like it for any reason either. In my 
not-so-humble-on-this-point opinion, successful projects need leadership with a 
vision that doesn’t change direction every time someone posts something on a 
forum, and that leadership needs to come from one or a group of individuals 
somehow. If this idea, or the particular leadership of a particular project, is 
offensive to you, or if you just feel it’s better to take a public vote on 
every line of code, fork away, find people who agree with you, and do your 
thing.

More humbly; I agree ‘quid' is a good word, it rolls off the tongue much better 
than ‘pound’, so saying ‘thirty quid’ feels more natural than ‘thirty pounds’. 
Unfortunately it very much remains in common usage in the U.K. I’m not entirely 
sure how to describe this phenomenon, so without trying to be smart, let me 
give you an example: Imagine I’m from England and I’ve just made a serious 
suggestion to you, an American, that the currency should be called ‘bucks’… as 
in “I’ll give you thirty bucks for lunch”. Nobody says ‘bucks’ in the UK unless 
they’re emulating Americans for comedy value, so it all sounds jolly amusing, 
and I give you a few other examples of how the word ‘bucks’ can be used in 
reference to the crypto currency. Let your reaction to that suggestion wash 
over you for a bit, (perhaps smile and nod a bit if you’re being polite), and 
that’s precisely the reaction you’ll get from anyone in the UK or Ireland at 
the suggestion the currency should be called a ‘quid’.

With apologies
-YP-- 
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Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Alexander Leishman]

Hey All,

So sorry I haven't been able to contribute code yet. I hope some time will
free up in my schedule soon. That said, here are my thoughts on the
marketing:

*Denomination*

I agree with Jackson that the denomination and the name of the chain will
probably have to be one in the same, unless we feel certain we can get
people to break the habit of using one name for both things. I doubt we'll
be able to do this.

"Quid" is short, sweet and familiar. Could the blockchain be named "Quid"
too? It doesn't sound terrible. At the risk of sounding too corporate, I
like to think about how any name we choose would come across to business
people and others completely unfamiliar with the project. "Mimblewimble" is
just not serious enough and I agree that name should be reserved for the
transaction protocol.

Here are a few ideas for the name of the chain and the unit of exchange
along with examples of using them in a sentence:

*- Mimble*: "I'm learning about Mimble, a new cryptocurrency". "I'll send
you 5,000 Mimble for lunch"
*- Quid* (Igno's idea, just seeing how it looks in example sentences). "I'm
learning about Quid, a new cryptocurrency". "I'll send you 5,000 Quid for
lunch"
- *Grin* (again not my idea) "I'm learning about Grin, a new
cryptocurrency". "I'll send you 5,000 Grin for lunch"

I'll try to think of more, but I don't want to change the flavor of the
project too much. I personally lean towards Mimble or Grin.

I also think that we shouldn't make the same mistake of the unit being too
large, like in Bitcoin, although it's tough to foresee what the price will
be.

*Symbol*

If we went with Mimble, we could maybe do a variant on this, muting the
harry potter lighting a bit.



[image: image.png]

*Foundation/Rules*

Is there a pressing need for funding and organization right now? It could
accelerate adoption and development but I think the Bitcoin foundation left
a bad taste in everyone's mouth. That said, I think we do need to pre-empt
any bad actors from creating an organization without any consent from the
people involved in the project. Even if the organization just hosts the
website and doesn't get involved with development I think it could be
useful to have as a defensive mechanism.

Since I'm not behind a pseudonym and I live in Silicon Valley, I'd be happy
to help get the ball rolling on anything we all agree would need to happen.
But this is a longer conversation that we should move to a new thread.

Regarding rules, I'd really like to avoid politics as long as possible
which we could do for a while if we all just act like adults. I lean
towards a policy of don't have rules until we need them.

I'm really looking forward to a bright future with all of you.


All the Best,
Alex Leishman



On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 10:21 PM Ignotus Peverell <
igno.pever...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you Andrew. A thousand times this:
>
> > We"re making privacy *cheap* and *accessible*.
> >
> > People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an
> immediate and
> > direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for
> maintaining
> > it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are
> being
> > surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are
> indirect and
> > invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to
> pay
> > their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and
> manipulating
> > them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without
> anybody
> > throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
> >
> > These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their
> privacy when
> > their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or
> unavailable. Criminals
> > don"t give a shit.
>
>
> - Igno
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> From: apoels...@wpsoftware.net
> To: Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com>
>
> Ignotus Peverell <igno.pever...@protonmail.com>,
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
> > I"ll bite!
> >
> >
> > Naming
> > ==
> >
> > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
> > instead of the blockchain type category.
> >
> > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so
> much
> > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockcha

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Ignotus Peverell]

Thank you Andrew. A thousand times this:

> We"re making privacy *cheap* and *accessible*.
>
> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an immediate 
> and
> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for 
> maintaining
> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are being
> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect and
> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to pay
> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and 
> manipulating
> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without anybody
> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>
> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their privacy 
> when
> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or unavailable. 
> Criminals
> don"t give a shit.

- Igno

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> From: apoels...@wpsoftware.net
> To: Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com>
> Ignotus Peverell <igno.pever...@protonmail.com>, 
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>> I"ll bite!
>>
>>
>> Naming
>> ==
>>
>> 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
>> instead of the blockchain type category.
>>
>> Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so much
>> about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockchain in
>> terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
>>
>> So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
>> transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
>> turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a
>> different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of stake.)
>>
>
> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the chain
> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines of
> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is 
> totally
> agnostic to that stuff".
>
>> 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection? I
>> always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another really
>> apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures in
>> Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast has
>> disappeared.
>>
>
> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I like
> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>
>> 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon would
>> be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the
>> middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
>> might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases to
>> the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.
>>
>> I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might be
>> the sweet spot.
>>
>
> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. She"s
> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system 
> might
> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge she 
> has
> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>
>>
>> Messaging
>> =
>>
>> I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
>> it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people understand
>> the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids
>> the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit uses.
>> Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding confidentiality"
>> section on their home page[2].
>>
>> Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since they
>> have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
>> However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
>> that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Ignotus Peverell]

Getting this back on topic... First I'd like to include my own proposal in the 
coin naming pool: quid. I like it for multiple reasons:

- It's already associated with money (and my impression is it's been less and 
less used in the UK over the last 10 years, but maybe someone living there can 
confirm/deny).
- It's slang and clear of trademark issues.
- "Quid pro quo" of course.
- Mogul currency. We're inclusive after all ;-)
- Nothing too high ranking on search engines or trends.

That being said, I also like a lot all the other proposals so far.

Second, thanks for your thoughts Jackson. I agree on the messaging breakdown. 
To address your various thoughts:

- A foundation is a huge topic with many ramifications. It can be used to 
protect IP and developers against lawsuit (I'm praying our cypherpunk elders 
every day so a bitcoin or ethereum developer doesn't get personally sued for an 
unfortunate bug), administer donations, provide some framework for the parts of 
governance not handled by the chain, etc. But even before getting there, I 
shudder at the logsitcs involved. Any idea there? Probably worth its own thread.
- I agree about the code of conduct. I've never written one but the contributor 
covenant [1] is widely used. I also like the Rust one [2] for staying short but 
still having a more explicit moderation section. Probably also worth its own 
thread.
- Also agree about UI/UX. I just don't have the bandwidth to take care of both 
the lower layers and UX right now. On the plus side, it's a huge problem and 
there's a lot of space for someone willing to step in to contribute :-)

- Igno

[1] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
[2] https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html

>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
> From: he...@ummjackson.com
> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net
>
> Adding my thoughts on this:
>
> ### Naming
>
> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with 
> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will 
> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to 
> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest question 
> the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a good 
> answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like blockchain 
> with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>
> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's 
> grown on me and is short/sweet.
>
> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody 
> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there 
> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin = 
> Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is to 
> simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will naturally 
> gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you holding?" or "I 
> was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest denomination ala 
> a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything tacky ("ingot" sounds 
> tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some have mentioned. My 
> recommendation would be something really simple like "bits' or "microgrin" 
> etc. Something boring/plain.
>
> ### Messaging
>
> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome 
> (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted
>
>  What makes Grin awesome
>
> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales
> - Maintains your privacy and security by default
> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining
>
> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be 
> great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
>
>  Why you should trust the Grin project
>
> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling 
> enttity
>
> ### Other misc. thoughts
>
> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... 
> I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle 
> project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be 
> a good idea
> - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience in 
> this field or should we consult someone who does?)
> - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start 
> talking UI/UX and how it really 

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Casey Rodarmor]

Whoops, I meant "We're talking about kindergarten-level civility here."

As in, be nice, don't eat glue, don't hit. Rules that anyone should be able
to follow.

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:44 PM Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect <
> percythepref...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >And what's the ethos of this project?
>>
>> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all.
>>
>
> Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all
> important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a
> holistic view and balance different objectives.
>
>
>> This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he
>> released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to
>> other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies.
>>
>
> Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is
> an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and
> those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including
> myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.)
>
> >So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
>> People with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people
>> that disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct,
>> will you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used
>> as a tool for political gain down the road.
>>
>
> Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code
> of conduct is not a violation.
>
>
>> Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was
>> "toxic"?
>>
>
> Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic
> participants.
>
> I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and
> welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than
> allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking
> about kindergarten-level civility here.
>
> As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any
> metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that.
>
>
>> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>>
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM
>> From: igno.pever...@protonmail.com
>> To: percytheprefect <percythepref...@protonmail.com>
>> Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>, mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <
>> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>>
>> > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>>
>> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we"
>> when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.
>>
>>
>> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about
>> how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally
>> being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over
>> code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
>> People with merit.
>>
>> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...
>>
>> - Igno
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> From: percythepref...@protonmail.com
>> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>
>> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>>
>> >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
>> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
>> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
>> entity might be a good idea
>>
>> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL
>> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit
>> be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of
>> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of
>> this project.
>>
>> >The project needs a Code of Conduct
>>
>> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems
>> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people t

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Casey Rodarmor]

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect <
percythepref...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> >And what's the ethos of this project?
>
> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all.
>

Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all
important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a
holistic view and balance different objectives.


> This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he
> released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to
> other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies.
>

Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is
an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and
those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including
myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.)

>So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People
> with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people that
> disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct, will
> you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used as a
> tool for political gain down the road.
>

Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code of
conduct is not a violation.


> Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was
> "toxic"?
>

Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic
participants.

I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and
welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than
allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking
about kindergarten-level civility here.

As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any
metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that.


> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> ---- Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM
> From: igno.pever...@protonmail.com
> To: percytheprefect <percythepref...@protonmail.com>
> Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>, mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>
> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we"
> when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.
>
>
> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about
> how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally
> being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over
> code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
> People with merit.
>
> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...
>
> - Igno
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> From: percythepref...@protonmail.com
> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
> >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
> entity might be a good idea
>
> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL
> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit
> be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of
> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of
> this project.
>
> >The project needs a Code of Conduct
>
> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems
> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't
> contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of
> various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of
> Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the
> project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it
> invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy.
>
> >If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user
> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right
> now, Grin needs to nail th

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Ignotus Peverell]

> This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.

And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we" when 
making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.

Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about how 
well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally being 
polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over code"? So 
yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People with 
merit.

Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...

- Igno

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> From: percythepref...@protonmail.com
> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>
> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net>
>
>>Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... 
>>I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle 
>>project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be 
>>a good idea
>
> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL 
> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit be 
> my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of 
> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of 
> this project.
>
>>The project needs a Code of Conduct
>
> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems 
> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't 
> contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of various 
> crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of Conduct". Are 
> you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the project if they don't 
> follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it invites politics into the 
> project instead of promoting a meritocracy.
>
>>If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start 
>>talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user 
>>experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right now, 
>>Grin needs to nail that
>
> It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a 
> terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX compared 
> to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how to handle 
> this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build their 
> applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that aren't 
> important at this point. No one will spend their time building things on top 
> of Grin if the core protocol is broken.
>
> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
>> From: he...@ummjackson.com
>> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net
>>
>> Adding my thoughts on this:
>>
>> ### Naming
>>
>> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with 
>> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will 
>> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to 
>> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest 
>> question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a 
>> good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like 
>> blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>>
>> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's 
>> grown on me and is short/sweet.
>>
>> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody 
>> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there 
>> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin = 
>> Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is to 
>> simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will naturally 
>> gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you holding?" or "I 
>> was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest denomination ala 
>> a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything tacky ("ingot" 
>> sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some have mention

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[percytheprefect]

>Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... I'd 
>recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle 
>project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be a 
>good idea

Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL group 
that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit be my 
guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of authority 
figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.

>The project needs a Code of Conduct

Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems like 
all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't 
contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of various 
crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of Conduct". Are 
you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the project if they don't 
follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it invites politics into the 
project instead of promoting a meritocracy.

>If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start talking 
>UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user experience is 
>a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right now, Grin needs to 
>nail that

It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a 
terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX compared 
to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how to handle 
this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build their 
applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that aren't 
important at this point. No one will spend their time building things on top of 
Grin if the core protocol is broken.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

> -------- Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
> From: he...@ummjackson.com
> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net
>
> Adding my thoughts on this:
>
> ### Naming
>
> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with 
> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will 
> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to 
> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest question 
> the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a good 
> answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like blockchain 
> with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>
> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's 
> grown on me and is short/sweet.
>
> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody 
> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there 
> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin = 
> Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is to 
> simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will naturally 
> gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you holding?" or "I 
> was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest denomination ala 
> a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything tacky ("ingot" sounds 
> tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some have mentioned. My 
> recommendation would be something really simple like "bits' or "microgrin" 
> etc. Something boring/plain.
>
> ### Messaging
>
> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome 
> (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted
>
>  What makes Grin awesome
>
> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales
> - Maintains your privacy and security by default
> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining
>
> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be 
> great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
>
>  Why you should trust the Grin project
>
> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling 
> enttity
>
> ### Other misc. thoughts
>
> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... 
> I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle 
> project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be 
> a good idea
> - The project needs a

Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging

[Casey Rodarmor]

I'll bite!


Naming
==

1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
instead of the blockchain type category.

Perhaps it's a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so much
about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it's just a good ol' blockchain in
terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.

So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don't require a
different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of stake.)

2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection? I
always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald's name. Another really
apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice's Adventures in
Wonderland. After all, it's all that's left after the rest of the beast has
disappeared.

3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon would
be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the
middle. If there's no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases to
the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.

I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might be
the sweet spot.


Messaging
=

I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
it's important to use terminology and framing which helps people understand
the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids
the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit uses.
Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding confidentiality"
section on their home page[2].

Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren't good, since they
have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
that people can understand and relate to, and I think it'll be an ongoing
but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point here.

[0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
[1] https://etherconverter.online
[2] https://z.cash

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 10:22 PM Ignotus Peverell <
igno.pever...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a good idea
> to start thinking of outward communication. We want to have enough time to
> prepare so when the time comes, we don't get confused with the thousands of
> other projects in this noisy space, and have a chance to voice our
> strengths and differences. Messaging can also take time to refine. Now, as
> I know words like "narratives" (yeastplume used it first, not me :P) can
> make some developers' eyes glaze over, I'll start with something more fun
> and friendly: naming [2].
>
> We need names for a few things:
>
>1. Our blockchain type. I'm happy to keep using MimbleWimble here. I
>know that technically, the Grin blockchain will have quite a bit more than
>just what's in the Jedusor white paper, but I think at a high level it's a
>good approximation. Some people are also already familiar with it and heard
>the name.
>2. Our implementation. I'm not unhappy with grin but I'm not opposed
>to renaming if too many folks are strongly against it.
>3. Our coin. We have nothing so far here so we need to find a name. My
>first inclination would be to accept propositions for names as replies to
>this email, and then run a poll online. Sounds good as a process? We likely
>need another name for smallest denominations too.
>
> To draw a parallel, in the Ethereum world 1) is Ethereum, 2) is Parity or
> geth, 3) is Ether/Wei.
>
>
> Now for the messaging and narratives. In my experience (which is a lot
> more shallow in that domain), we want to outline our strengths and
> differences to formulate a value proposition. From there we can distill
> messages of various lengths, adapted to different support (one-liner title,
> one paragraph article intro, full website, etc). And ideally, we'd have
> opportunities to try these messages in various environments to see how they
> work and incrementally improve them.
>
> So I'll start with a mixed bag of strengths and differences in no
> particular order and maybe we can figure out a way to go from there. If
> some people have more experience in how to go about this and a good process
> to get there, by all means please chime in.
>
>- Strong anonymity provided by obfuscating amounts, sources and
>destinations and removing data over time.
>- Great scalability as most blockchain data gets removed, without
>compromising security (the magic part).
>- A diverse community of developers and cryptographers (no control
>from a single entity).
>- A brand new, clean