Re: Getting envolved
Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads to reliability. So, you mean a more intuitive software is necessary more complex? Can't we make a simple but intuitive interface without a lot of code? Well? Can you? Try. Let us know how it went. Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob Do you apply this reasoning to anything in life or do you reserve this kind of eugenics only to IT? :) It's reality. //art
Re: Getting envolved
Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. I couldn't agree more, people expect that they will have to take some time to learn to ride a bike, operate a car, cook a new dish, and etc. But by god their computer better just work. I started out life as a pc tech at a large company, i can't tell you the number of times i've heard but i don't want to learn how to do it or i just can't understand computers or I shouldn't have to learn how to do it, it should be eaiser and we weren't talking about developing a diff for the kernel then rebuilding the entire base system from source, it was typically something simple like changing the background color in a power point presentation. -Josh On 14 Dec 2007 10:14:37 +0100, Artur Grabowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads to reliability. So, you mean a more intuitive software is necessary more complex? Can't we make a simple but intuitive interface without a lot of code? Well? Can you? Try. Let us know how it went. Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob Do you apply this reasoning to anything in life or do you reserve this kind of eugenics only to IT? :) It's reality. //art
Re: Getting envolved
* Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-13 21:46]: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:22:07PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or at least those who can afford to pay for it). Yes -- when those specialists are paid. Also, OpenBSD is not a service to be deserved. It is a labour of love; the object of that labour is OpenBSD itself not the great unwashed masses. Health care is provided by healthcare service providers (paid or not) hopefully also as a labour of love; the object of that labour is the recipient of the care. Note the difference. Doug (RN). The differences still aren't all that different. OpenBSD also has limited resources (particularly developer time) and constraints under which it operates. In the end the guy that does his homework and invests the effort will have more benefit from it. The Health system, no matter what country, is the same in that particular respect. The guy who keeps himself healthy will get the liver transplant before the guy who is smoking and drinking and weighs 300 pounds. No amount of whining about but I deserve a click ok for a liver button, the health care system should invest resources to provide me one is going to change that. -Bob
Re: Getting envolved
On Dec 13, 2007 7:39 PM, Jeremy Huiskamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. No, you misconstrued. If you aren't skilled medical practitioner, and you can't take basic precautions in choosing reputable professionals to diagnose and treat your ailments, then you are at least somewhat liable for the disaster that can happen as a result. You need to be able to take some personal stock in the diagnosis that is given you and act responsibly in getting second opinions if you need to. Good hospitals and good doctors endorse this patient takes stock mentality in treatment. Bad ones let users remain clueless and shoot themselves in proverbial foot. Or, If you aren't yourself an auto mechanic, you need to *at least* nail down basic auto maintenance skills - changing your oil, keeping coolant up, getting new tires when threadbare etc. You *shouldn't* complain if you've run your car into the ground at 30,000 miles because you weren't aware you needed to maintain it yourself or at least get it in regularly. And you shouldn't complain to loudly when the auto mechanic recognizes you as a complete idiot and gouges you on the price. Educate yourself a little bit more about that item you dropped $40,000 dollars on and protect yourself a little bit more. These are parallels and don't work perfectly, really, but the point is that computers cannot keep getting dumber because the users are. Remember back in the day when it required some amount of skill to be a computer operator? See the state the Internet is in now that every moron on Earth is being connected to it, not wanting to have to use, maintain, or secure their computers responsibly? DS
Re: Getting envolved
Le mercredi 12 dC)cembre 2007 C 11:22 -0800, Ted Unangst a C)crit : On 12/12/07, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. most developers are convinced the installer is about as easy to use as possible. other parts of the system could possibly use some improvement, but keep in mind that easy to use and simple aren't the same for many people, and openbsd really values simple. I agree easy to use and sample are not the same for everyone. That's why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to install. If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P Best regards.
Re: Getting envolved
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:44:35AM +0100, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Le mercredi 12 dC)cembre 2007 C 11:22 -0800, Ted Unangst a C)crit : On 12/12/07, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. most developers are convinced the installer is about as easy to use as possible. other parts of the system could possibly use some improvement, but keep in mind that easy to use and simple aren't the same for many people, and openbsd really values simple. I agree easy to use and sample are not the same for everyone. That's why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to install. If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P Best regards. That's all fine, but your mum is probably not an OpenBSD developer. The main target audience for OpenBSD are the developers. We make what suits us. And we are not computer users with average or below average skills. That does not mean we like to make things complicated, far from that. We do however expect our users to have some knowledge and skills. Luckily there are a lot of people around that have similar views and needs as the developers. Any other person or group liking the results is free to use it for whatever thay want. Maybe to make something that's easier to install for *their* intended audience. But that installer probably won't make it into the base system. Please do not read this as a discouragement to get involved. But if you want to create something that supposed to go into the base system, it really should cater for the needs of the main body of users. -Otto
Re: Getting envolved
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:44:35 +0100 Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I agree easy to use and sample are not the same for everyone. That's why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to install. If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P MacOS may be a good choice for your mum? To put my opinion in the right perspectine, I confess that I am a newbie and have used Linux for some years relying heavily on GUI tools for configuration and administration. My profession does not require computing at all (!) and I will not even dream of writing any useful code. I simply do not have the skills. I think everyone understands your good intentions but (if you are new) try to read this list for a few months and you will understand why there is no graphical installer. OBSD is primarily a tool for developers. Obviously, any project depends on a large enough number of skillfull contributors. However, it has been made clear that OBSD does not care about me or your mum, common 'users'. I do not take offence by this attitude. I believe that we (users) are in the very fortunate position to be allowed to take advantage of the effort made by all developers. And for free, nothing is asked in return (except the the small token shown buying the CD sets)! Thank you Developers! Not only for giving me access to your software, the education that comes with it is equally appreciated. Back to your case or example, a mum with low computer skills. OBSD may newer be the right choice for her. If difficulties installing the OS is stopping her she will not likely be able to administrate her system without help. This helpfull person will install OBSD and any (well, almost any :-) application she would ever want or need. This is the least difficult part in creating a functional OBSD desktop. The installer and package management are easy for someone with basic understanding of some the concepts common in all Unix-like systems. Living with poorly documented hardware, some laptops or a box you don't put together yourself, can be a much harder experience. - Ulf
Re: Getting envolved
If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads to reliability. Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob
Re: Getting envolved
On Dec 13, 2007 11:11 AM, Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads to reliability. Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. Agreed. and as a relatively new user.. and coming from the linux world. I found the openbsd installer to be the SIMPLEST I have ever used. Setting aside disklayout and slicing, I've yet to give OpenBSD to my fellow students and experience problems. ~J
Re: Getting envolved
Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob Do you apply this reasoning to anything in life or do you reserve this kind of eugenics only to IT? :) I don't apply it - It's just reality. A group of people participating in something will get what they deserve based on the collective effort and thought they put into things, whether it's a group of one, or 300,000,000. Examples: - Operating Systems - Applications - Democratically Elected Leadership }8- TANSTAAFL.. Your effort and education determine how good any of the above will be.. An Operating system for morons will be hmm.. moronic. A government eleceted by morons will be.. moronic. The result is a direct reflection of the process and participants. -Bob
Re: Getting envolved
On Dec 13, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:44:35AM +0100, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Le mercredi 12 dC)cembre 2007 C 11:22 -0800, Ted Unangst a C)crit : On 12/12/07, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. most developers are convinced the installer is about as easy to use as possible. other parts of the system could possibly use some improvement, but keep in mind that easy to use and simple aren't the same for many people, and openbsd really values simple. I agree easy to use and sample are not the same for everyone. That's why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to install. If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P Best regards. That's all fine, but your mum is probably not an OpenBSD developer. The main target audience for OpenBSD are the developers. We make what suits us. And we are not computer users with average or below average I've always wondered what kind of other projects the OpenBSD developers are working on these days. When you read through the OpenBSD lists and docs, you can see clearly that the above is true. I'm no developer, but I've found openbsd to be a great network firewall and router. A nice side affect of developers building an OS that suits them for their needs. So, if you care to share, what kinds of projects (not OpeBSD itself) are you developing? (I understand if you can't share, due to employer placed restrictions.) skills. That does not mean we like to make things complicated, far from that. We do however expect our users to have some knowledge and skills. Luckily there are a lot of people around that have similar views and needs as the developers. Any other person or group liking the results is free to use it for whatever thay want. Maybe to make something that's easier to install for *their* intended audience. But that installer probably won't make it into the base system. Please do not read this as a discouragement to get involved. But if you want to create something that supposed to go into the base system, it really should cater for the needs of the main body of users. -Otto
Re: Getting envolved
Bob Beck wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. I love this one. May be will need a bob.c along side the theo.c soon too! (;
Re: Getting envolved
Daniel Ouellet wrote: Bob Beck wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. I love this one. May be will need a bob.c along side the theo.c soon too! (; Only if Theo decides to make OpenBSD an Adult operating system, and I don't mean you need the wisdom of age to understand it. :) Nick.
Re: Getting envolved
Nick Holland wrote: Daniel Ouellet wrote: Bob Beck wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. I love this one. May be will need a bob.c along side the theo.c soon too! (; Only if Theo decides to make OpenBSD an Adult operating system, and I don't mean you need the wisdom of age to understand it. :) Nick. This cracked me up. There is really a deep good sense of humor on misc@ as well. (; I just popped open a beer to that. Best, Daniel
Re: Getting envolved
On 13-Dec-07, at 11:11 AM, Bob Beck wrote: If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads to reliability. Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. -Bob When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or at least those who can afford to pay for it). So sure, from a practical standpoint people with above average computer skills are always going to have better experiences with computers, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to even it out. Jeremy
Re: Getting envolved
When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or at least those who can afford to pay for it). Yes -- when those specialists are paid.
Re: Getting envolved
On 13-Dec-07, at 10:22 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or at least those who can afford to pay for it). Yes -- when those specialists are paid. Absolutely. You guys deserve to get paid for what you do (insofar as there are enough people willing to pay you for what you do), nor are you obligated to tailor the operating system for any particular class of user. I don't think either of those mean that non-technical people deserve bad software, it just means they have to find someone who is both a good programmer and has a desire to make simpler interfaces for money. That programmer will probably build on top of your work. Hopefully that'll all fall into place some time in the not-too-distant future.
Re: Getting envolved
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 09:40:43AM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:44:35AM +0100, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Le mercredi 12 dC)cembre 2007 C 11:22 -0800, Ted Unangst a C)crit : On 12/12/07, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree easy to use and sample are not the same for everyone. That's why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to install. If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P That's all fine, but your mum is probably not an OpenBSD developer. The main target audience for OpenBSD are the developers. We make what suits us. And we are not computer users with average or below average skills. That does not mean we like to make things complicated, far from that. We do however expect our users to have some knowledge and skills. Luckily there are a lot of people around that have similar views and needs as the developers. Any other person or group liking the results is free to use it for whatever thay want. Maybe to make something that's easier to install for *their* intended audience. But that installer probably won't make it into the base system. Rather than changing the installer, or for that matter, NIC setup, rclocal or any other config issuee, I would suggest (and someday will work on) better documentation for what I call Novices. Something to bridge the gap between the generic Mom and the FAQ and man pages, yet alone between Mom and Absolute OpenBSD. My own personal philosophy with novices is to focus on CLI skills and only use startx with a window manager to run a specific GUI app such as a graphical web browser or to preview a postscript file prior to printing it. To me, OpenBSD is perfect for this as an OS for teaching good skills. I have a book started, working title NoviceDoc designed to take someone who has not clue about computers, what a disk is or anything else, through installing an free OS, to writing and printing a letter. Its not yet at rough-draft state (e.g. written off the top of my head so some facts [e.g. the unix history chapter] lacking references) so not ready for distribution. The last time I looked at the whole thing (its written in LaTex in chapter files), I think I've covered all the hardware topics and the what-is-unix chapter. Anyway, the documentation approach is what I've taken to address making OpenBSD easier for mom to use. Doug.
Re: Getting envolved
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:22:07PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or at least those who can afford to pay for it). Yes -- when those specialists are paid. Also, OpenBSD is not a service to be deserved. It is a labour of love; the object of that labour is OpenBSD itself not the great unwashed masses. Health care is provided by healthcare service providers (paid or not) hopefully also as a labour of love; the object of that labour is the recipient of the care. Note the difference. Doug (RN).
Re: Getting envolved
On 12/13/07, Jeremy Huiskamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. more like, the supermarket sells two types of meat, raw and frozen. if you don't learn to cook, you have to eat the frozen food. the production is more involved and you pay more for it, but the end result is not as good.
Getting envolved
Hello, First I apologize if this is not the good address to post this kind of message. I didn't find a 'getting involved' link on the 0penBSD website. Well, OpenBSD seems to care about quality, so as a developper I thought this would be a good place to learn how to write better software. To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. Let me know your opinion about this. Anyway, I will first have to learn the system, so I should ask an OpenBSD CD and book for christmas. :P Best regards.
Re: Getting envolved
* Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-12 11:23]: Hello, First I apologize if this is not the good address to post this kind of message. I didn't find a 'getting involved' link on the 0penBSD website. Well, OpenBSD seems to care about quality, so as a developper I thought this would be a good place to learn how to write better software. To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. Let me know your opinion about this. Anyway, I will first have to learn the system, so I should ask an OpenBSD CD and book for christmas. :P Best regards. Start by learning how to use the system. then start reading source code and posting small diffs of your suggestions to change it. When you post a diff, be sure to keep the diff small, succinct, and solving one issue at a time. Do not be disappointed if the developers do not agree with your diff or your issue - as a newbie you will probably not get it right the first, or even the seventh time. repeat this process until someone takes you under their wing and sponsors you for real commit access. -Bob
Re: Getting envolved
On 12/12/07, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. most developers are convinced the installer is about as easy to use as possible. other parts of the system could possibly use some improvement, but keep in mind that easy to use and simple aren't the same for many people, and openbsd really values simple.
Re: Getting envolved
1. Pick an area that you are interested in. 2. Fix bug / add useful (non superfluous feature) 3. Send diff to tech@ 4. Await flames or see diff getting committed 5. Repeat several time until someone notices good quality and you'll get invited to play We are always looking for good people. On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 06:31:24PM +0100, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Hello, First I apologize if this is not the good address to post this kind of message. I didn't find a 'getting involved' link on the 0penBSD website. Well, OpenBSD seems to care about quality, so as a developper I thought this would be a good place to learn how to write better software. To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. Let me know your opinion about this. Anyway, I will first have to learn the system, so I should ask an OpenBSD CD and book for christmas. :P Best regards.
Re: Getting envolved
On Dec 12, 2007 6:31 PM, Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, First I apologize if this is not the good address to post this kind of message. I didn't find a 'getting involved' link on the 0penBSD website. Well, OpenBSD seems to care about quality, so as a developper I thought this would be a good place to learn how to write better software. To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use. But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of 'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first. Let me know your opinion about this. Anyway, I will first have to learn the system, so I should ask an OpenBSD CD and book for christmas. :P Best regards. Improvements are always welcomed. Sends so diff's and people can see if they feel it's improvement or not. BR dunceor
