Re: Willing to help

[lists]

Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:51:09 -0600 Adam Thompson 
> On 16-01-26 10:32 AM, Peter Hessler wrote:
> > On 2016 Jan 26 (Tue) at 08:13:22 -0600 (-0600), Edgar Pettijohn wrote:  
> > :> * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
> > :>   Needs to be unified into one single  
> >
> > One binary, with symlinks.  Both methods should still work, however.  
> 
> $0.02:
> 
>  s/sym/hard /g
> 
> might satisfy a larger percentage of people...

before a program can be named, it has source code and a compiler, seen
code by OpenBSD developers but not so much from misc@ discussions,
don't let quality coding distract us from fun talk

Re: Willing to help

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi,

ropers wrote on Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:10:35AM +0100:
> On 26 January 2016 at 00:37, Rodrigo Mosconi wrote:
>> Ingo Schwarze wrote:
 
>>>  * ftp(8) is very old and suffering from bitrot; the last attempt to
>>>rewrite it trickled out with no obvious conclusion, i don't
>>>exactly know why.

>> ftp client or ftp server?

> That must be a typo. There is no ftp(8), but there are ftp(1) and ftpd(8).

I meant ftp(1), the client.  But it was pointed out to me in private
that work on the replacement wasn't abandoned and is ongoing, even
if slowly, so it was probably a mistake to mention it as an open
task.  Sorry for the misrepresentation.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Willing to help

[Edgar Pettijohn]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:42 PM, Ingo Schwarze  wrote:
>
> Hi Rodrigo,
>
> redirected to misc@, this is off-topic on tech@.
>
> Rodrigo Mosconi wrote on Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 06:54:32PM -0200:
>
>> I would like to receive some help/mentoring. I`m cursing a master degree
>> course at PUC-Rio, and I need to "create a useful program that performs a
>> service of interest to anyone other than exsively the student." So I would
>> like to create something to the openbsd project.
>>
>> I would like to know in which areas need some work?  I have partial time
to
>> work on it and only this half year to do it.  Some of the old google
summer
>> of code is still need?  There are some need to a new daemon, or replace an
>> old one, aligned with the openbsd style ( configuration files, privsep,
>> plegde)?
>
> For a beginner, it's usually easier to do bugfixing in high-qualitive
> existing code than to do full-scale auditing or refactoring in
> low-quality existing code, and for a beginner, it is even harder
> to write new high-quality code from scratch.  So to anyone considering
> similar projects, make sure that you start regularly finding bugs
> and sending patches to fix them at least one year before you want
> to do a project that involves writing a new program for OpenBSD
> from scratch.  Otherwise, it's gonna be tough.
>
> Besides, we have a hard time advising people what they could do if
> we don't know what they are capable of.  "Master student at a
> university" doesn't mean a lot.  There are people who don't study
> anything, suddenly pop up out of nowhere, and do good work right
> away.  There are people with a degree who fail even at simple tasks.
> Rodrigo, according to the ChangeLog, you worked on cwm(1) and
> cfengine so far.  Given that amount of public information, the only
> person who can judge your skills is yourself.
>
> We sometimes say "/usr/bin/" is full, meaning that adding additional
> programs doesn't necessarily make the system better.  If done without
> good reason, it just makes the system larger and less simple.
> Consequently, finding a project of the kind "write a new program"
> is about ten times harder than finding a project of the kind "improve
> an existing program", even for an experienced developer.
>
> All that said, there _are_ some programs that need to be rewritten.
> The one that is most sorely missing is ppp(8), a PPP client program.
> That may not be a simple task, and it may not be easy to find a
> mentor.  The people most knowledgable in that area live in Japan,
> they are very focussed and very hard-working people, and they are
> *very* busy.
>
> There is other stuff that requires rewriting, in alphabetical order:
>
> * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
>   Needs to be unified into one single

This seems like a project that would end in arguments over which to
consolidate to.

"Adduser is better", no "useradd is better"

> program and cleaned up.
> * dig(8)/nslookup(8)/host(8):
>   A simpler replacement not using external libraries would be useful.
> * ftp(8) is very old and suffering from bitrot; the last attempt to
>   rewrite it trickled out with no obvious conclusion, i don't
>   exactly know why.
> * ldapd(8) is decent code, but sorely lacks a maintainer.
> * ldappasswd(1) would be nice to have.
> * lpd(8)/lpc(8)/lpr(1) is very old and suffering from bitrot.
> * traceroute(8) needs to be extended by the functionality of
>   tcptraceroute.
>
> Some GSOC projects may still be relevant, but one has to admit that
> it is rare that GSOC projects produce code that actually gets
> committed.  Even among those that succeeded, only a minority produced
> code good enough to actually get used.  If people look for a project
> rather than simply working on what they are interested in, chances
> for success are quite slim.
>
> That said, don't despair, but you really need to be able to
> realistically judge your own skills and interests, make up your own
> mind, and take initiative.
>
> Yours,
>  Ingo

Re: Willing to help

[Mike Burns]

On 2016-01-26 08.13.22 -0600, Edgar Pettijohn wrote:
> > * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
> >   Needs to be unified into one single
> 
> This seems like a project that would end in arguments over which to
> consolidate to.
> 
> "Adduser is better", no "useradd is better"

I assume that whoever actually does this gets some say in which is better.

Re: Willing to help

[Peter Hessler]

On 2016 Jan 26 (Tue) at 08:13:22 -0600 (-0600), Edgar Pettijohn wrote:
:> * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
:>   Needs to be unified into one single
:
:This seems like a project that would end in arguments over which to
:consolidate to.
:
:"Adduser is better", no "useradd is better"
:

One binary, with symlinks.  Both methods should still work, however.


:> program and cleaned up.


-- 
You can bring any calculator you like to the midterm, as long as it
doesn't dim the lights when you turn it on.
-- Hepler, Systems Design 182

Re: Willing to help

[Adam Thompson]

On 16-01-26 10:32 AM, Peter Hessler wrote:

On 2016 Jan 26 (Tue) at 08:13:22 -0600 (-0600), Edgar Pettijohn wrote:
:> * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
:>   Needs to be unified into one single

One binary, with symlinks.  Both methods should still work, however.


$0.02:

s/sym/hard /g

might satisfy a larger percentage of people...

;-)

-Adam

Re: Willing to help

[ropers]

On 26 January 2016 at 00:37, Rodrigo Mosconi wrote:

>  * ftp(8) is very old and suffering from bitrot; the last attempt to
> >rewrite it trickled out with no obvious conclusion, i don't
> >exactly know why.
> >
>
> ftp client or ftp server?
>

That must be a typo. There is no ftp(8), but there are ftp(1) and ftpd(8).

Re: Willing to help

[Rodrigo Mosconi]

2016-01-25 20:42 GMT-02:00 Ingo Schwarze :

> Hi Rodrigo,
>
> redirected to misc@, this is off-topic on tech@.
>

OK, my fault


>
> Rodrigo Mosconi wrote on Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 06:54:32PM -0200:
>
> > I would like to receive some help/mentoring. I`m cursing a master degree
> > course at PUC-Rio, and I need to "create a useful program that performs a
> > service of interest to anyone other than exsively the student." So I
> would
> > like to create something to the openbsd project.
> >
> > I would like to know in which areas need some work?  I have partial time
> to
> > work on it and only this half year to do it.  Some of the old google
> summer
> > of code is still need?  There are some need to a new daemon, or replace
> an
> > old one, aligned with the openbsd style ( configuration files, privsep,
> > plegde)?
>
> For a beginner, it's usually easier to do bugfixing in high-qualitive
> existing code than to do full-scale auditing or refactoring in
> low-quality existing code, and for a beginner, it is even harder
> to write new high-quality code from scratch.  So to anyone considering
> similar projects, make sure that you start regularly finding bugs
> and sending patches to fix them at least one year before you want
> to do a project that involves writing a new program for OpenBSD
> from scratch.  Otherwise, it's gonna be tough.
>
> Besides, we have a hard time advising people what they could do if
> we don't know what they are capable of.  "Master student at a
> university" doesn't mean a lot.

I only said about the curse, because simple patchs aren`t allow to this
discipline.
 I must develop the specification, the project, write the code, document
it, implement
tests, write user documentation.


> There are people who don't study
> anything, suddenly pop up out of nowhere, and do good work right
> away.  There are people with a degree who fail even at simple tasks.
> Rodrigo, according to the ChangeLog, you worked on cwm(1) and
> cfengine so far.  Given that amount of public information, the only
> person who can judge your skills is yourself.
>
> I also worked with zeromq/czmq upstream.  In my last job I worked as
developer and made some company products



> We sometimes say "/usr/bin/" is full, meaning that adding additional
> programs doesn't necessarily make the system better.  If done without
> good reason, it just makes the system larger and less simple.
> Consequently, finding a project of the kind "write a new program"
> is about ten times harder than finding a project of the kind "improve
> an existing program", even for an experienced developer.
>
> All that said, there _are_ some programs that need to be rewritten.
> The one that is most sorely missing is ppp(8), a PPP client program.
> That may not be a simple task, and it may not be easy to find a
> mentor.  The people most knowledgable in that area live in Japan,
> they are very focussed and very hard-working people, and they are
> *very* busy.
>
> There is other stuff that requires rewriting, in alphabetical order:
>
>  * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
>Needs to be unified into one single program and cleaned up.
>
re-enginered programs are allowed as subject.


>  * dig(8)/nslookup(8)/host(8):
>A simpler replacement not using external libraries would be useful.
>
 re-enginered programs are allowed as subject.


 * ftp(8) is very old and suffering from bitrot; the last attempt to
>rewrite it trickled out with no obvious conclusion, i don't
>exactly know why.
>

ftp client or ftp server?


>  * ldapd(8) is decent code, but sorely lacks a maintainer.
>
re-enginered programs are allowed as subject.


>  * ldappasswd(1) would be nice to have.
>
"simple" but usefull


>  * lpd(8)/lpc(8)/lpr(1) is very old and suffering from bitrot.
>
I didn`t used lp?, so I skip to work on these


>  * traceroute(8) needs to be extended by the functionality of
>tcptraceroute.
>
> Some GSOC projects may still be relevant, but one has to admit that
> it is rare that GSOC projects produce code that actually gets
> committed.  Even among those that succeeded, only a minority produced
> code good enough to actually get used.  If people look for a project
> rather than simply working on what they are interested in, chances
> for success are quite slim.
>
I`m looking a interesting project. I will ask to my mentor if the useradd
or dns clients
can be used as subject. The ldapd probabily is.


> That said, don't despair, but you really need to be able to
> realistically judge your own skills and interests, make up your own
> mind, and take initiative.
>
I will look for the ldap family first.  As user, I have a need for then:
the "server"
and the "client" part.


>
> Yours,
>   Ingo

Re: Willing to help

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Rodrigo,

redirected to misc@, this is off-topic on tech@.

Rodrigo Mosconi wrote on Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 06:54:32PM -0200:

> I would like to receive some help/mentoring. I`m cursing a master degree
> course at PUC-Rio, and I need to "create a useful program that performs a
> service of interest to anyone other than exsively the student." So I would
> like to create something to the openbsd project.
> 
> I would like to know in which areas need some work?  I have partial time to
> work on it and only this half year to do it.  Some of the old google summer
> of code is still need?  There are some need to a new daemon, or replace an
> old one, aligned with the openbsd style ( configuration files, privsep,
> plegde)?

For a beginner, it's usually easier to do bugfixing in high-qualitive
existing code than to do full-scale auditing or refactoring in
low-quality existing code, and for a beginner, it is even harder
to write new high-quality code from scratch.  So to anyone considering
similar projects, make sure that you start regularly finding bugs
and sending patches to fix them at least one year before you want
to do a project that involves writing a new program for OpenBSD
from scratch.  Otherwise, it's gonna be tough.

Besides, we have a hard time advising people what they could do if
we don't know what they are capable of.  "Master student at a
university" doesn't mean a lot.  There are people who don't study
anything, suddenly pop up out of nowhere, and do good work right
away.  There are people with a degree who fail even at simple tasks.
Rodrigo, according to the ChangeLog, you worked on cwm(1) and
cfengine so far.  Given that amount of public information, the only
person who can judge your skills is yourself.

We sometimes say "/usr/bin/" is full, meaning that adding additional
programs doesn't necessarily make the system better.  If done without
good reason, it just makes the system larger and less simple.
Consequently, finding a project of the kind "write a new program"
is about ten times harder than finding a project of the kind "improve
an existing program", even for an experienced developer.

All that said, there _are_ some programs that need to be rewritten.
The one that is most sorely missing is ppp(8), a PPP client program.
That may not be a simple task, and it may not be easy to find a
mentor.  The people most knowledgable in that area live in Japan,
they are very focussed and very hard-working people, and they are
*very* busy.

There is other stuff that requires rewriting, in alphabetical order:

 * adduser(8)/useradd(8):
   Needs to be unified into one single program and cleaned up.
 * dig(8)/nslookup(8)/host(8):
   A simpler replacement not using external libraries would be useful.
 * ftp(8) is very old and suffering from bitrot; the last attempt to 
   rewrite it trickled out with no obvious conclusion, i don't
   exactly know why.
 * ldapd(8) is decent code, but sorely lacks a maintainer.
 * ldappasswd(1) would be nice to have.
 * lpd(8)/lpc(8)/lpr(1) is very old and suffering from bitrot.
 * traceroute(8) needs to be extended by the functionality of
   tcptraceroute.

Some GSOC projects may still be relevant, but one has to admit that
it is rare that GSOC projects produce code that actually gets
committed.  Even among those that succeeded, only a minority produced
code good enough to actually get used.  If people look for a project
rather than simply working on what they are interested in, chances
for success are quite slim.

That said, don't despair, but you really need to be able to
realistically judge your own skills and interests, make up your own
mind, and take initiative.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Willing to help

[Chris Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 11:42:37PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
>  * lpd(8)/lpc(8)/lpr(1) is very old and suffering from bitrot.

I do use lpd system. It works, but is clunky and sometimes frustrating
to get everything working for a new printer, local or network. It also
totally fails on some print jobs, badly sent ones, but they just sit
there in the queue and need to be manually removed. Ugh!  I will give
that a go unless someone else is doing it. Trying to fix bad old code
should be very educational. I'm definitely not qualified to work on the
existing excellent code. That's a job for the pro's that have more
important work to do.

Chris Bennett

Re: Willing to help

[lists]

Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:42:37 +0100 Ingo Schwarze 
> Some GSOC projects may still be relevant, but one has to admit that
> it is rare that GSOC projects produce code that actually gets
> committed.  Even among those that succeeded, only a minority produced
> code good enough to actually get used.  If people look for a project
> rather than simply working on what they are interested in, chances
> for success are quite slim.
>
> That said, don't despair, but you really need to be able to
> realistically judge your own skills and interests, make up your own
> mind, and take initiative.

All Ingo said continued, if you're still wondering, it may be a good
idea to contact other seasoned OpenBSD users in your area and ask them
for suggestions what they would like to have and miss the time and
skill to contribute.  Additions however, have to be maintained, so if
you're just looking for a term project, starting a new program and
disappearing is not the best service, I'd say it's the opposite.  Better
be prepared to stick around and look for converting something in, or
improving on some part, rather than new designs.

>From a user perspective check out daemons that need and miss a control
accompanying program or a service utility, that could count for your
term assignment but be a quick win, gaining you more learning insight,
rather than stuck in the deep (with potentially unacceptable offerings).