Re: Why Alien:: Dists Should not be optional

[Andy Lester]

> 
> Alien:: distributions on CPAN (see https://github.com/Perl5-Alien 
>  ) should
> not be made an optional requirement by their reverse deps because this will
> mean duplicate logic at best, and a broken build process at worst.

I’m not sure I see what you’re saying.  Are you saying that for something like 
HTML::Tidy5, that Tidy5 should somehow be required to use the corresponding 
Alien::Tidy5 module?

COMAINT on B-LexInfo

[Andy Lester]

Can someone please assign me COMAINT on B-LexInfo, rather than making Doug do 
it himself?

Thanks,
Andy


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Doug MacEachern <doug.maceach...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Updates to B::LexInfo
> Date: June 20, 2016 at 10:49:00 PM CDT
> To: Andy Lester <a...@petdance.com>
> 
> Hi Andy,
> 
> Great to hear the module is still useful and worked up to this point!
> Its been over 10 years since I've maintained any of my Perl modules,
> ok with me if you'd like to make the fix and upload to CPAN.
> 
> Best,
> -Doug
> 
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Andy Lester <a...@petdance.com> wrote:
>> Hey, Doug, long-time user, I’m sure I’ve still got the eagle book at home
>> somewhere.
>> 
>> We’ve upgraded our Perl at work to 5.20, and now we get warnings when Apache
>> starts up because of B::LexInfo:
>> https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=114661  And now in Perl 5.22 this
>> warning becomes fatal.
>> 
>> Is there anything I can do to help get an updated B::LexInfo out?  Would it
>> help if I sent a patch?
>> 
>> Or is this something that would be completely off your radar, that you don’t
>> want to deal with? (I have modules like that myself)  If so, I’d be glad to
>> make the change and upload to CPAN myself.
>> 
>> I know it’s 17 years old, but it’s part of our stack, and Apache2::Status
>> still supports it.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Andy
>> 
>> --
>> Andy Lester => www.petdance.com
>> 

--
Andy Lester => www.petdance.com

Re: Trimming the CPAN - Automatic Purging

[Andy Lester]

On Mar 25, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

 But solution to what? Are we convinced there's actually a problem here?

The first two rules of optimization club:

1) You do not optimize.
2) You do not optimize without measuring.

As soon as someone can explain specifics of the problem, including magnitude, I 
can begin to be concerned.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Consensus on MakeMaker vs. Module::Build vs. Module::Install?

[Andy Lester]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Hans Dieter Pearcey wrote:

 No.  The closest is don't use MakeMaker, but even that's something people
 will still argue about.

And for module starting you have both Module::Starter and Dist::Zilla.

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Re: Spam to CPAN Developers? (Fwd: Betonmarkets CTO position)

[Andy Lester]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:20 AM, Jonathan Yu wrote:


Has anyone else got a message like this to their CPAN Developer e-mail
address? I'm curious if this is the beginning of a really bad trend
toward CPAN author spamming :/



Yes. Maybe, but I doubt it.

I'm praying that we can chalk it up to some guy in Malaysia sending us  
all mail, and this doesn't turn into a huge metadiscussion.


Please?

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Writing tests with WWW:Mechanize

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Rene Schickbauer wrote:

I'm currently writing some tests using WWW::Mechanize. In normal  
mode it works quite well.



Please post this to the www-mechanize-users list.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: What's the current 'best practices' for module license

[Andy Lester]

On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Geoffrey Leach wrote:


Some time back here was an extensive discussion of module licenses. I
ignored it at the time, but now I regret that. Can someone point me to
a conclusion? Or, is it sufficient to use Software::License::Perl_5?

Thanks.



http://perlbuzz.com/2009/07/help-end-licensing-under-same-terms-as-perl-itself.html

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Re: What's the current 'best practices' for module license

[Andy Lester]

On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:15 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:


Allison recently sent me this link on TPF:

http://www.perlfoundation.org/cpan_licensing_guidelines



Nice, tweeted on @perlbuzz, thanks.

xoa

--
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Re: should we still be registering module namespaces?

[Andy Lester]

On Aug 17, 2009, at 10:41 AM, nadim khemir wrote:


On Monday 17 August 2009 16.48.24 Jonathan Swartz wrote:

Is there still a point to registering module namespaces on PAUSE?


People registering a namespace are the exception. I don't see any  
need for it.



How about the reverse: Is there any

--
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Re: I'd like a way to abandon a module

[Andy Lester]

On Aug 13, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Adrian Howard wrote:


Make an ABANDONED PAUSE user and give modules to it?



I thought of that, but unless somehow the modules came out of PETDANCE  
into ABANDONED's directory, I still look like the owner.


--
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I'd like a way to abandon a module

[Andy Lester]

It would be swell if we could somehow note modules as being abandoned.

For example, I'm a maintainer of WWW::Yahoo::Groups, because nobody  
took it from Iain Truskett.  It doesn't install correctly because it's  
out of date and it's scraping Yahoo.  Someone needs to update it if  
it's ever going to work again, but that's not going to be me.  I am  
currently getting RT mail when people submit bugs, but I just delete  
them.  It would be good if I didn't get the mail, and if people knew  
that there was no point in submitting bug reports anyway.


This doesn't just apply to my case of having someone else's module.   
It makes sense for any module for which the maintainer no longer has  
any interest in keeping it up.


xoxo,
Andy


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Re: Perl Monks compromised, PAUSE accounts at risk

[Andy Lester]

On Jul 30, 2009, at 8:58 AM, imacat wrote:


Dear all,

   I received this mail today.  Is this real?  Or is it another
phishing?



It's real.

http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39373

xoa

--
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Re: Help understanding module-starter aka Module::Starter

[Andy Lester]

On Jul 30, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Shawn H. Corey wrote:


Hi,

I'm preparing a module for CPAN and I used module-starter to set it  
up.  I think I understand all the files it created except one: t/ 
boilerplate.t  What does it do?



It fails if you haven't modified certain parts of the starter module.   
It's meant to be thrown away once you get it passing.


xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Help understanding module-starter aka Module::Starter

[Andy Lester]

On Jul 30, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Shawn H. Corey wrote:


Huh?  I don't remember changing anything and it passes.  How come?



Maybe it's old and outdated, and the stuff it's looking for no longer  
shows up in the default modules.


The point was that if the default module had YOUR NAME HERE, t/ 
boilerplate.t would make sure that you do NOT still have YOUR NAME  
HERE in the code.


xoa

--
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Re: Best way to abandon usable code?

[Andy Lester]

On May 26, 2009, at 12:33 AM, Joshua Isom wrote:

Is there some best place for abandoning useful code without having  
to bother maintaining it?



Usable code without author maintenance?  Sounds like many CPAN authors  
have beat you to it! :-)


xoa

--
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Re: PBP Module Recommendation Commentary and recent CPAN ratings spammings

[Andy Lester]

I wonder who created that page on perlfoundation.org?


It's a wiki.  You don't have to wonder:

http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?action=revision_list;page_name=pbp_module_recommendation_commentary


While it claims to be
the community best practices it even lists Module::Build as  
maybe I

think this page is mostly ridiculous.

What do you think?


I think you should update it.

xoxo,
Andy


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Re: RFC: Yet Another Excel Writer..

[Andy Lester]

On Mar 30, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Brad Lhotsky wrote:



My question is, do you think the CPAN needs another spreadsheet  
module?


Doesn't matter whether it does or not.  Your real question is Should  
I upload my module to CPAN? and the answer is Absolutely, yes.


There is no reason NOT to upload it, and your module may be far-and- 
away better than all the others, for some value of better, for some  
population.  Or it might be a steaming pile of crap, and nobody ever  
uses it.  Or a little of both, depending.  But that's how open source  
works!


xoxo,
Andy

--
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Re: Specifying different bug trackers?

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:52 PM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:


Can I prevent people from opening tickets on rt.cpan,org. Does the
bugtracker item in META.yml cascade through to the front page of
search.cpan?


No, it doesn't.



Yes, it does.  See http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/PETDANCE/ack-1.86/META.yml 
 and how it reflects on http://search.cpan.org/dist/ack/


Now, it doesn't prevent tickets from opening in rt.cpan.org, and  
that's just one of those things you'll have to bear.  I get probably  
10% of my bug reports on WWW::Mechanize in RT, instead of the bug  
tracker at code.google.com.


It would be nice if rt.cpan.org allowed authors to shut down queues,  
but hey, I'm not arguing with a free service.


xoxo,
Andy

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Re: What's up with all these people uploading stuff under their own name.

[Andy Lester]

On Oct 12, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Chris Thompson wrote:


It just seems to me to be a bad way to maintain an orderly repository.



I don't see that top-level names mean anything.  It's not like anyone  
browses through them.


--
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Re: Proposal: Test::Refcount

[Andy Lester]

On Jul 14, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Paul LeoNerd Evans wrote:


Does this sound good?



Yes, and if it sounds like it would actually supercede  
Test::Memory::Cycle, I would be glad to abandon T:M:C in favor of yours.


xoxo,
Andy

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Incorrect guessing the part of CPANTS

[Andy Lester]

I looked around at the CPANTS assessment of ack.  It's got some big  
errors.


* It thinks that the Util I ship in t/ for the help of tests is a Util  
in another distro.  See http://cpants.perl.org/dist/prereq/ack


* CPANTS thinks that Win32::File is a prerequisite, when it very  
specifically is not.  The require for Win32::File is in an eval, so it  
is fine if it doesn't exist.  See http://cpants.perl.org/dist/kwalitee/ack


* The overview complains about lack of examples and POD coverage.  http://cpants.perl.org/dist/kwalitee/ack 
  However, neither examples nor POD coverage tests are appropriate  
because ack is a single program, with no user serviceable parts inside.


* And, a suggestion: Add links to the project home page and the  
project's actual bug tracker on http://cpants.perl.org/dist/external/ack


xoxo,
Andy


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Re: Template oriented module

[Andy Lester]

On Jun 15, 2008, at 5:27 PM, Hans Dieter Pearcey wrote:


I don't have suggestions on the rest, but don't reinvent this wheel;



Unless you can make a better wheel.

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Re: New CPANTS metrics

[Andy Lester]

On Jun 10, 2008, at 10:41 AM, David Cantrell wrote:

If you see no value in it, just ignore it.  I'm sure it will do  
wonders

for your blood pressure.



I guess that's my very point.  Here's this entire subsystem that  
exists to supposedly give information to authors and potential users  
about the relative quality of the code, and yet the attitude that  
comes out is Eh, we like it, you don't have to like it.


Take a lesson from Perl::Critic and explain the reasoning behind the  
policies.


Reposting from http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=39922threshold=-1commentsort=1mode=nestedcid=63283 
:


Exactly. I look at http://cpants.perl.org/author/PETDANCE and it tells  
me that many of my distributions fail certain checkboxes. So what?


Here it says WWW::Mechanize has no README. So what? Why do I as an  
author care?


It says that Mech's META.yml doesn't conform to a known spec (At least  
that's what I think the arcane code in the hover box tells me). So  
what? Why do I as an author care?


My META.yml doesn't have a license in it. So what? Why do I as an  
author care?


Perl::Critic::Bangs fails the test proper_libs which tells me  Move  
your *.pm files in a directory named 'lib'. The directory structure  
should look like 'lib/Your/Module.pm' for a module named  
'Your::Module'. It should? Why do I as an author care if I don't put  
my .pm file in the lib/ directory?


It's only overstating slightly to say that the entire CPANTS structure  
seems to be built upon the premise of These are things that should be  
a certain way because I say so, whoever I may happen to be.


That's not to say that the things checked for aren't worthwhile, but  
nothing says WHY they are worthwhile.


Further, and worse, it's presented as You should just know this stuff  
and appreciate us for telling you.

--

--
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Re: Changing the focus of the chronic CPAN problem

[Andy Lester]

I'd like to have a discussion about rethinking the How do I do what I  
want to do? problem that people have been discussing, and that I  
talked about here: http://perlbuzz.com/2008/04/rethinking-the-interface-to-cpan.html


I've started a separate group, away from here, to discuss.

http://groups.google.com/group/rethinking-cpan

I welcome your thoughts, discussions, and ideas.

Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Idea: CPAN Category Reviews

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 5, 2008, at 6:02 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Hi all!

In regards to the previous discussion about trimming down CPAN and  
finding
better ways to find quality modules, I got an idea of making CPAN  
category
reviews. The idea was originally derived from Freshmeat.net where  
they often

have category reviews of the various software hosted there:


This is something I sort of started doing on perl101.org.  How do I  
parse XML? Use this module  etc  Your idea is a bigger  better  
expansion of that.


However, my concern is that discussion has turned down the road of  
where the reviews will live, what formats they'll be kept in, etc etc  
etc.  These are all technical issues and are the least of your concerns.


Like most projects of any size, the technical aspect is at most half  
of the problem.  The rest is the human side.


Who is going to write these reviews?  Where do you expect them to come  
from?  Will they be posted by whoever wants to post them?  Will there  
be some sort of editorial oversight?


What are the categories?  Who decides what the categories are?  Do the  
modules get starred reviews?  How will differences of opinion be  
handled?


Whenever I'm faced with this sort of requirements gathering, I find it  
useful to come up with a mockup of what a screen might look like.   
Your list of OOP modules is a good start, but there's room for  
expansion.  A full-blown HTML page mockup of what  
cpanreviews.shlomi.com could be will help others visualize what you're  
discussing.  $picture == @words[0..999].


I think it's far more useful to talk about these human issues first.   
The technical answers will fall out of the requirements that get  
created.


xoxo,
Andy

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Changing the focus of the chronic CPAN problem

[Andy Lester]

Every so often, an idea's like Shlomi's comes up, where we talk about  
adding reviews to CPAN, or reorganizing the categories, or any number  
of relatively easy-to-implement tasks.  It's a good idea, but it's  
focused too tightly.  What we're really trying to do is not provide  
reviews, but help with the selection process.


** We want to help the user find and select the best tool for the job.  
**


It might involve showing the user the bug queue; or a list of reviews;  
or an average star rating.  But ultimately, the goal is to let any  
person with a given problem find and select a solution.


I want to parse XML, what should I use?  XML::Parser? XML::Simple?   
XML::Twig?  If parse XML really means find a single tag out of a  
big order file my boss gave me, the answer might well be a regex, no?


In my day job, I work for Follett Library Resources and Book  
Wholesalers, Inc.  We are basically the Amazon.com for the school   
public library markets, respectively.  The key feature to the website  
is not ordering, but in helping librarians decide what books  they  
should buy for their libraries.  Imagine you have an elementary school  
library, and $10,000 in book budget for the year.  What books do you  
buy?  Our website is geared to making that happen.


Part of this is technical solutions.  We have effective keyword  
searching, so you can search for horses and get books about horses.  
Part of it is filtering, like I want books for this grade level, and  
that have been positively reviewed in at least two journals, in  
addition to plain ol' keyword searching.  Part of it is showing book  
covers, and reprinting reviews from journals. (If anyone's interested  
in specifics, let me know and I can probably get you some screenshots  
and/or guest access.)


BWI takes it even farther.  There's an entire department called  
Collection Development where librarians select books, CDs  DVDs to  
recommend to the librarians.  The recommendations could be based on  
choices made by the CollDev staff directly.  They could be compiled  
from awards lists (Caldecott, Newbery) or state lists (the Texas  
Bluebonnet Awards, for example).  Whatever the source, they help solve  
the customer's problem of I need to buy some books, what's good?


This is no small part of the business.  The websites for the two  
companies are key differentiators in the marketplace.  Specifically,  
they raise the company's level of service from simply providing an  
item to purchase to actually helping the customer do her/his job.


Ultimately, I think this is where all how do we make CPAN easier to  
use discussions are leading.  The focus needs to change from the  
tactical (Let's have reviews) to the strategic (How do we get the  
proper modules/solutions in the hands of the users that want them.)


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Re: Changing the focus of the chronic CPAN problem

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 5, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
If you have a tactic for deploying a strategy, I would like to hear  
it.



Like-minded strategists get together and deploy a single solution.

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Re: Changing the focus of the chronic CPAN problem

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 5, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
Thanks for the comments. See below for my response. It will be a  
rather

stream-of-consciousness thing, but I hope something can come up of it.



I've expanded my original comments here:
http://perlbuzz.com/2008/04/rethinking-the-interface-to-cpan.html

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Removing or Archiving outdated and unsupported modules on CPAN; proposal

[Andy Lester]

Basically, the CPAN is ad-hoc.  Anyone can do whatever they want.   
Other
people have tried to emulate the CPAN, but with restrictions on who  
can

upload what, criteria for inclusion and listing, etc.  These projects
have been miserable failures.


Or, more succinctly: The CPAN thrives BECAUSE of the unfettered  
uploading of shit, not in spite of it.




As an example, WWW::Mechanize has a ton of bugs in RT.



I believe it has zero.  However, there are currently 39 in the issue  
tracker at Google Code: http://code.google.com/p/www-mechanize/issues/list


xoa

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Re: uniform version numbers for CPAN modules

[Andy Lester]

On Mar 3, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:


Are there any compelling reasons to keep allowing any type of version
numbers?



I suspect that the amount of time saved by any benefits from  
standardized version numbers will be dwarfed by the amount of time  
spent arguing over what the standard should be.


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cpan-testers in the inbox

[Andy Lester]

http://log.perl.org/2008/02/no-more-email-d.html

Well I guess that settles that. :)

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 29, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote:

Maybe the most practical option is still the global skip file  
mentioned by
David Golden. Uninterested people would get a single unsollicited  
email,

and would need to opt-out once only.



Except that the global skip file would need to apply to individual  
bots, not the entire cpan-testers architecture.  Again, I have no  
problem with human reports.  It's the bots I mind.  I also expect that  
at some point there might be a bot that I WOULD want to sign up for.


I see it sort of like a robots.txt, where you're able to set different  
rules for different clients.


# CPAN tester bot info file v0.1
humans:
  report-by: SMTP
foobot:
  report-by: none
barbot:
  report-by: Mechanism-name

or whatever.

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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 29, 2008, at 10:47 AM, David Golden wrote:


It is spam -- in a sense.  It's generally unsolicited.  It's
historical tradition to cc authors -- which is why I want to move away
from email and let notification be an author's choice from a central
source.



Yes, absolutely.  Then I don't rely on someone saying Yes, report  
this to the author as well when he reports the problem.


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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

Hmm, yeah.  That sort of ties-in to the whole thing where cpantesters
has implemented web services over SMTP.  So, you're probably getting
mail straight from the tester rather than e.g. the web server checking
your preferences after receiving the POST and before sending you mail,


There's that, but I don't mind SMTP from real people.  If a real  
person has a real problem installing a module he's really going to  
use, that's great.  I will usually reply directly to help the person  
out, and modify my module appropriately.


When a bot complains to me that some arbitrary ancient module has long  
since been abandoned, doesn't work under 5.6.1, it's noise regardless  
of delivery format.  It is unsolicited noise.  Just delete it and  
other people like these messages are comments heard from commercial  
spammers, no?


Here's an analogue.  How about if I start up a bot where I email all  
the owners of every module if their modules don't run under taint  
mode?  Whether or not you see the validity in it, please consider my  
point of view on this.


Again, I ask: I would like bot notification to be opt-in only.

Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy

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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 29, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:


To be honest, it's usually humans that provide the least useful
reports.  The bots do a much better job.



If they're using CPAN::Reporter, then it's all the same.

Bots do not report actual use cases.  They report imagined,  
speculative use cases.


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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

mkdir blib/lib/Test: No space left on device at /usr/perl5.6.2/lib/ 
5.6.2/ExtUtils/Command.pm line 259

*** Error code 255


So now I have a permanent note of FAIL in the records because your  
automated bot ran out of drive space.  I can't put into words how much  
I appreciate that.


I'd sure appreciate it if the automated bot owners would actually  
look, with human eyes, at whether their failures are legitimate before  
sending them off.


Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy

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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

So now I have a permanent note of FAIL in the records because  
your automated bot ran out of drive space.  I can't put into words  
how much I appreciate that.


I think you're taking this a bit too seriously here. It's a bit  
annoying, but not a disaster.


I didn't say it was a disaster.


That'd sort of defeat the purpose of having automated bot, wouldn't  
it? I suspect that if someone is using a bot to test a large swath  
of CPAN, they'd get a fair number of failures, too many for them to  
review by hand.


Such is the nature of that responsibility if they're going to add it  
to the database of failures, and tell me Hey, something is wrong.   
It's bad enough I'm getting scolded for failures on 5.6.1, a platform  
about which I do not give Shit One.



What would be handy is a way to mark the report as invalid in the  
cpan testers database so it stops showing up as a failure. Then  
authors could ask testers to update these reports if they think the  
failure is bogus (as it obviously was in the case you're responding  
to).



Even better is I'd prefer some way to opt-out of the various smokebot  
services.


So let me ask this, SREZIC: How about a quick 'n' easy way to say  
Thanks, but no thanks?


xoa


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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

* If you don't give a fig about some version of perl like 5.6.1, then
specify use 5.006002 in your PL files


Why would I want to go re-release all the modules under my care, many  
of which no longer have maintainers, often because they've died  
(literally), to quiet noise from an illegitimate use case?  A bot  
unable to use my module is not a legitimate use case.




These are the *same* dependencies that end users will need to know.
If you release code that isn't clear about these, then you are
potentially *wasting people's time* figuring out why your modules
don't work on their system.


I question whether there is ACTUAL wasting of people's time, not  
potential.  I also suspect that anyone still on 5.6.1 is well aware of  
how to tell when and why things don't work on their systems.


As to baby/bathwater, I've had zero baby from automated smoke bots as  
far as I can remember.  It's been 100% bathwater.  Maybe to someone  
else, the idea that a module fails under 5.6.1 is a problem, but not me.


As a side note: If someone set up a smoke bot on Windows that I could  
send a release of ack or Mech to before I release it, I would gladly  
pay that bot's owner some amount of cash money every time I used it.   
THAT is the sort of supply that I have demand for.


I'm not disputing that the smoke bots are useful.  I just want choice  
rather than having results shoved at me unwanted.  Surely that's not  
unreasonable.


xoxo,
Andy

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Re: FAIL Test-Pod-Coverage-1.08 i386-freebsd 6.1-release

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 29, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:


I'm not disputing that the smoke bots are useful.  I just want choice
  rather than having results shoved at me unwanted.


I'm not sure why or how you should have a choice about the smoke  
results

being posted.  The results are there for everybody to see.



I mean in my inbox.  Yes, I can filter stuff out from bots, but at  
that point it seems backwards.


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Re: With the Macrame macro system, Perl may now be a Lisp.

[Andy Lester]

On Dec 7, 2007, at 5:30 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote:


* Guy Hulbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-07 21:50]:

CPAN is also littered with failed experiments.


So is the fossil record. Good thing nature didn’t quit
experimenting a billion years ago.



mantra
CPAN thrives because of the unfettered uploading of shit, not in spite  
of it.

/mantra

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Tk / Nick Ing-Simmons

[Andy Lester]

On Nov 22, 2007, at 10:54 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

I notice that since Nick Img-Simmons' sad passing Tk seems  
unmaintained. It certainly doesn't build on 5.10. I wonder if anyone  
knows the status of it and whether anyone is considering maintaining  
it?


I think that it's important to Nick's memory that his code is not  
allowed to rot. Unless anyone thinks it's in poor taste I'd like to  
take a crack at making the necessary changes so it keeps working.


I meant to send out an announcement about that way back when, like  
when I took over Iain Truskett and Simon Cozens' modules, but never  
got around to it.  I think it would be tremendous to get Tk up and  
running again.  Heck, I might even help.


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Re: Tk / Nick Ing-Simmons

[Andy Lester]

On Nov 22, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Nicholas Clark wrote:


I think you're missing what Slaven has been up to:

http://search.cpan.org/~srezic/Tk-804.027_501/



Duh, and I even gave him rights to it. :-(

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Re: distributed/centralized META.yml data

[Andy Lester]

 The trouble with ad-hoc is just that it tends 
 to *never* get formalized (i.e. never gets centrally documented, 
 becomes discoverable, appears in books, etc.)

The trouble with planned soluttions is that it tends to *never* get
implemented.  Lots of talking, lots of ideas, precious little
implementation.

I'm not afraid of iterative solutions.  It doesn't bother me to think
that I might implement something today, just to get it out there, and
then have to revert it.

 Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to
 predict the future is to invent it.
 --Alan Kay

I think what's missing most of the time, certainly in discussions like
this, is the part of invent where a usable solution winds up existing.

xoa

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Re: distributed/centralized META.yml data

[Andy Lester]

On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Ovid wrote:

Frankly, I'd suggest waiting a while before pulling the trigger and  
then if nothing manifests (which I'm guessing it won't), then go  
ahead.



The risk is infinitesimal.  I put some fields in a META.yml, and ask  
Graham to see if he can support them.  If a better solution comes  
along, then we change to it.


I'm baffled by the fear we have of changing things, of making a first  
stab at something for fear that we might have to change it again.


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New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

I'm moving my bug queue for WWW::Mechanize and Test::WWW::Mechanize  
over to Google Code, which is also where I host the source code.


I think it'd be a good idea if META.yml had fields that say where the  
bug queue is, and where the source code lives.  That way  
search.cpan.org, and any others, could refer to the proper URLs,  
because very soon, the link at http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW- 
Mechanize/ that points to the queue at http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/ 
Bugs.html?Dist=WWW-Mechanize is going to be wrong.  Also, a project  
home page would be swell as well.


Schwern: Is this your ball?

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

automated tools are, umm, not very likely to submit bug reports.

Consequently, having it in a machine-readable META.yml file doesn't  
seem

very useful.  Put it in the docs instead.


Please do me the courtesy of reading the entire message.

Repeating the part that it seems you missed: That way  
search.cpan.org, and any others, could refer to the proper URLs,  
because very soon, the link at http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW- 
Mechanize/ that points to the queue at http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/ 
Bugs.html?Dist=WWW-Mechanize is going to be wrong.  Also, a project  
home page would be swell as well.  It has nothing to do with humans  
reading the META.yml in the build directory, and everything to do  
with how search.cpan.org sees it.


Thank you,
Andy

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Re: New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

On Oct 29, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:


It already does.


  Also, a project home page would be swell as well.


In the 'resources' hash, the 'bugtracker', 'repository', and  
'homepage'

keys are defined in the spec.


Ah, thank you.  I'd assumed they didn't exist.  Mea culpa.

Now to see if EU::MM supports them

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Re: New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:11 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote:


• The META.yml files in older versions of your distro can’t
 change even though the info in them would no longer be correct.

• Doing this via META.yml means the only way to update this info
 is to push out a new release.

Clearly this info should live somewhere and search.cpan should
use it, but META.yml is the wrong place. It belongs somewhere
unversioned.



Best is the enemy of the good.  Moving forward with META.yml for  
WWW::Mechanize and Test::WWW::Mechanize.


xoa

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Re: New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 11:25:34PM +0100, A. Pagaltzis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
 * Andy Lester [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-29 23:15]:
  Best is the enemy of the good.
 
 And next time this will be handy, it will also be too big a
 change vs. an incremental suboptimal solution, and the overnext
 time as well, and ever on.

What do you propose we do?

 The gravatar spat would’ve been solved by something like that and

The Gravatar spat was entirely a non-problem.

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Re: New fields for META.yml

[Andy Lester]

I thought about it for a bit and found there are some faintly
tricky questions. Nothing too serious, but I’m not entirely sure
of all the answers, so I don’t have a proposal on hand.


Let me know when you get one then.  In the mean time, I'm moving  
forward.




Mostly the questions are things like whether the data should live
on the CPAN FTP itself or should search.cpan gain an account
system?


search.cpan.org is not the CPAN.  It is a view of the data.

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Re: Should I include second-order dependencies in Makefile.PL?

[Andy Lester]

On Jun 5, 2007, at 7:42 PM, James E Keenan wrote:


Is there any reason *not* to do so?


Yes.  Second-order dependencies are beyond your control.  You will  
have false dependencies when an underlying module changes.


Say that Mech has dependency on HTML::Wango, which in turn has a  
dependency on Test::Tango.  So my dependencies are listed as


HTML::Wango = 1.00,
Test::Tango = 1.00,

SCENARIO 1: The maintainer of Foo::Wango decides that Test::Tango is  
unnecessary, and does without it.  He released HTML::Wango 1.02.   
Someone installing Mech must now install HTML::Wango and Test::Tango,  
although NOTHING in the chain requires Test::Tango.


SCENARIO 2: HTML::Wango uses some new feature of Test::Tango 2.00,  
and thus requires it.  Your helpful list of dependencies is out of  
date, because although you say that you are requiring 1.00,  
HTML::Wango requires 2.00.


SCENARIO 3: Combine 1  2.

The real solution is either: 1) for the CPAN shell to use the  
META.yml files to determine the chain of dependencies ahead of time.   
Also, you don't always have to have the ask option on prereqs.  I  
think most people DON'T have it set to ask.


xoxo,
Andy


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Re: anybody feel like translating some PHP to Perl?

[Andy Lester]

On May 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, David Nicol wrote:


http://news.com.com/2100-1029-6186430.html


I don't understand the PHP-Perl angle.

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Re: Modules are NOT missing on CPAN, Andy screwed up

[Andy Lester]

Ok, yes, I screwed up twice.  All is fine.
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Modules are missing on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

At first I thought I might have deleted two revisions of  
WWW::Mechanize by mistake, but it's not just Mech:  SOAP::Lite is  
missing revisions.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/SOAP-Lite/ only shows SOAP::Lite up to  
0.60a, but I know for a fact that there's been a 0.67.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Mechanize/ shows 1.29_01 that I  
uploaded earlier in the week, but 1.26 has disappeared.


Different mirrors have different sets of modules.  For example:

* http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/
  shows 1.24 and 1.29_01
* http://mirror.datapipe.net/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/
  shows 1.24 and 1.29_01
* http://cpan.groovis.net/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/
  shows 1.24, 1.26 and 1.29_01

Please tell me someone's aware of this besides me.

xoxo,
Andy

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Modules are missing on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

At first I thought I might have deleted two revisions of  
WWW::Mechanize by mistake, but it's not just Mech:  SOAP::Lite is  
missing revisions.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/SOAP-Lite/ only shows SOAP::Lite up to  
0.60a, but I know for a fact that there's been a 0.67.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Mechanize/ shows 1.29_01 that I  
uploaded earlier in the week, but 1.26 has disappeared.


Different mirrors have different sets of modules.  For example:

* http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/
  shows 1.24 and 1.29_01
* http://mirror.datapipe.net/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/

Please tell me someone's aware of this besides me.

xoxo,
Andy

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Modules are missing on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

At first I thought I might have deleted two revisions of  
WWW::Mechanize by mistake, but it's not just Mech:  SOAP::Lite is  
missing revisions.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/SOAP-Lite/ only shows SOAP::Lite up to  
0.60a, but I know for a fact that there's been a 0.67.


http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Mechanize/ shows 1.29_01 that I  
uploaded earlier in the week, but 1.26 has disappeared.


Different mirrors have different sets of modules.  For example:

* http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/
  shows 1.24 and 1.29_01
* http://mirror.datapipe.net/CPAN/authors/id/P/PE/PETDANCE/

Please tell me someone's aware of this besides me.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 23, 2007, at 8:39 PM, Ken Williams wrote:

Sure it does.  You're trying to get people not to use the word  
script for perl program.  David says he considers script the  
best word for it, and says why.  How can that not have any bearing?


I meant about his irrelevant parallels to program being what you  
get at the opera, and script the lines of a play.


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 22, 2007, at 11:07 AM, David Nicol wrote:


 I'm trying hard to get people to stop saying script when
 referring to their Perl programs.  I'd prefer that we not use it
 anywhere at all.


outside of computers, script is a better term for the carefully
tuned deliverables that software engineer produce than is
program.  Your basic mundane citizen considers a program
a list of things that will occur in an evening, or a document
they are handed when they occasionally get out to the opera,
while script is something mysterious, yet cruciual for
the production of television shows, produced by professionals
who are legendary for failing to get the girl.


None of that has any bearing on the sort of change in thinking I'm  
working on.



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Re: script or program?

[Andy Lester]

On May 22, 2007, at 11:25 AM, David Nicol wrote:


None of that has any bearing on the sort of change in thinking I'm
working on.


Okay, Andy Petdance Lester, vent your spleen.  We're all ears.


I'm not sure where you're going here.

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Re: search.cpan.org search oddness

[Andy Lester]

On May 22, 2007, at 2:12 PM, Andy Armstrong wrote:


Difficult?

http://search.cpan.org/search?query=CGImode=module


Difficult for people who aren't sure how the search interface  
works, certainly.


Certainly I would expect to put CGI in the box and click search  
and get CGI.pm right away.  Law of least surprise and all that.


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 17, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Johan Vromans wrote:


I think Application (or Applications) is a good idea. Its length does
not really matter since it needs to be typed just once. (This would be
different for modules.)


I don't see how Application:: is any better than App::.  It seems  
like change for the sake of it.


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

B. App:: is already in use as a namespace for Modules.


That's a distinction that is not at all clear, and will not be  
understood by most users.


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 17, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Johan Vromans wrote:


Even perl distinguishes 'bin' from 'script', so 'script' would be
better.


I'm trying hard to get people to stop saying script when referring  
to their Perl programs.  I'd prefer that we not use it anywhere at all.


xoa


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 17, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Andreas J. Koenig wrote:


One of the oldest ideas for namespace decisions was that when a family
of modules constitutes something you can perceive as a framework, then
any top level namespace is ok. It makes no sense when everybody just
grabs a toplevel namespace with a cute name but when you come with a
bag of modules, you deserve one.


The whole idea of levels of namespace has pretty much been outdated  
anyway.  Why is Nike::Foo any better or worse than App::Nike::Foo?


Nobody actually uses this hierarchy.  There's not some outline.  We  
don't traverse a strict tree.


Does it matter that WWW::Mechanize isn't LWP::Mechanize?  Shouldn't  
similar things be named in the same TLNS?


Why isn't RT::* App::RT::*?  Or WWW::RT::*?

What's with all these ad hoc appending of x, like DBIx and RTx?   
Maybe the componenty parts should be Appx::* ?


There's no hierarchy.  There just isn't.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 17, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote:

What's with all these ad hoc appending of x, like DBIx and RTx?   
Maybe the componenty parts should be Appx::* ?


Well, DBIx is actually something Tim Bunce requested, since he  
didn't want people adding stuff to the DBI hierarchy. For Mason  
extensions, we asked people to use MasonX for similar reasons.


That's fine.  I'm not disagreeing with that.  Point is that there's  
all sorts of stuff out there that doesn't even come close to being in  
a strict hierarchy.


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Re: bin:: namespace for utilities on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 17, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:


I'm actually having a difficult time getting you all to agree to
*recommend* that things which will be installed in a directory named
bin/ should have a namespace named bin::?  Wow.


LWP::UserAgent has stuff that installs into bin.  WWW::Mechanize has  
stuff that installs into bin.  etc etc etc


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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 16, 2007, at 5:08 AM, Dominique Quatravaux wrote:


Thanks for the insight; indeed there is precedent here (for the
record: App::SimpleScan, App::Addex, App::GUI::Notepad etc). But there
are even more folks who use the App:: namespace to write modules *for*
applications (App::CLI, App::Info etc). Is there a document somewhere
that tells which one (or both) of these usages is correct


No.  They both are correct.

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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

I would like it to be more consistent
though.


Good luck on that.  Tell us how it goes.



  We should make a magic 8 ball faq generator.  When someone
asks a new question about some un-enforced CPAN policy, it makes a
random decision and posts the result somewhere for future reference.


Some place that won't get seen.



Lots of people want guidance on a few simple things which would make
CPAN more navigable, but they get an answer of whatever you want  
when

it is actually a decision that was previously made (by somebody),


In this case, App:: has already been previously been made.  I've  
already got App::Ack and App::HWD (although their package names are  
ack and hwd, respectively).  So let's use my convention because my  
decision has been previously made.




that it would be nice to have an easy way to deduce what the
established convention is if one exists.)


I'm really not sure what you think convention is.




By good answer, I meant some form of concensus.


What sort of quorum do we need on this consensus?  How many people  
need to buy in on it?  Are you going to organize the Conference On  
Namespace Decisions?


If you want namespace to be some form of order (I do), using it for  
two
things tends toward entropy.  If you wish to avoid chaos, the  
answer is

not to use it at all.


I don't see that there's anything confusing in using App:: for both  
modules that are apps, and that access other apps, unless you choose  
to be confused by them.


Overall, far too much time is spent navel-gazing over Namespaces And  
How They Should Be.


xoa

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Re: (Create a new ?) namespace for applications on CPAN

[Andy Lester]

On May 16, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Dominique Quatravaux wrote:


Overall, far too much time is spent navel-gazing over Namespaces
And How They Should Be.

As a novice CPAN author, I apologize (sincerely? You figure it out!)
for wasting your time trying to do the right thing.


I'm glad you asked, and you certainly didn't waste my time.  When I  
said far too much time is spent navel-gazing I wasn't referring to  
you.


I have no quarrel with your asking your original question.  My  
frustration comes from when those of us who have been doing this for  
a while sit around and try to organize something that will never be  
organized, never can be organized, and probably shouldn't ever be.   
In this case, App:: is as good an answer as exists, and to go  
beyond that is silly.


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Re: Module name - smoke testing automation

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 13, 2007, at 11:58 AM, Dave Rolsky wrote:

The core idea is that there are multiple test sets, which is  
really any directory that contains a t/ subdirectory with .t files.  
The app will be a script you can call from cron to run a test set,  
and the order is determined by how out of date a test set is,  
whether it's been marked as prioritized, etc.


Also it needs to be able to run on multiple configurations, so you  
can have Makefile.PL or configure with multiple sets of arguments.


xoa

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Re: Who controls svn.perl.org?

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:12 AM, David Cantrell wrote:


I recommend using Google Code hosting at code.google.com instead.
Setup is trivial, as is adding people to the project.


What's the advantage over sourceforge?


No waiting for project approval, and I've never had Google Code go  
down.  Also, the SourceForge interface is godawful and I just don't  
like using it.


But hey, if you like SourceForge, stick with it.

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Re: Who controls svn.perl.org?

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 2, 2007, at 7:53 AM, Jerry D. Hedden wrote:


Who do I need to contact to get access permission on svn.perl.org so I
can add the 'threads' and 'threads::shared' modules to it?


I recommend using Google Code hosting at code.google.com instead.   
Setup is trivial, as is adding people to the project.  Both of those  
require human intervention if you host it on svn.perl.org.


But I see from http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=606275 that you've  
asked and been responded to there about this.  I wonder why you still  
want svn.perl.org.


Andy

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Re: Who controls svn.perl.org?

[Andy Lester]

For my own modules, I might consider it, but for core
modules, I feel they should go somewhere more 'official'.


I thought that, too, but now I don't see that it makes a shred of  
difference.  If you see anything where it would make a difference,  
even in perception, please let me know.




But I see from http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=606275


You must be mistaking me for someone else on this point.  I
am not referenced on that node.


Yes, my mistake.  David Golden commented on the thread here, and on  
perlmonks, and I had a brainfart.


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Re: Who controls svn.perl.org?

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 2, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Jerry D. Hedden wrote:


If I should drop dead, someone in the Perl community could
take over the modules.


They can anyway.  The repository at code.google.com is no less open  
than svn.perl.org.


The big thing is that code.google.com takes the burden off of the  
already overworked and tireless Ask and Robrt.


xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Who controls svn.perl.org?

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 2, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Tels wrote:


svn.perl.org sounds much
more officially perl than some random google URL,


So what?


plus you got two
repositories, which is never a good thing.


Why?  We've got dozens of repositories right now.  What's it matter  
if it lives in svn.perl.org or svn.petdance.com or svn.googlecode.com?


For me, concern #1 is ease of people getting at the code and ease of  
administration.  svn.perl.org is not easily administered because I  
have to go through Ask or Robrt to make changes.



However, as far as third-party code hosting goes, I just have to  
remind

people on sourceforge... one can only hope google fares better in the
feature.


And if it sucks in the future, then move it somewhere else.



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Re: Another non-free license - PerlBuildSystem

[Andy Lester]

On Feb 16, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

And I have strong sentiments against doing What Everyone Else Does  
(tm) and

conformism.


Doing things others do is not conforism.

Doing things others don't do is not non-conformism.

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Re: Delete hate speech module

[Andy Lester]

On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:11 PM, Joshua ben Jore wrote:


I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?


It's deserving, but I'd sure rather not have attention called to it.

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Re: James Keenan's other modules (was: Re: CGI::Simple)

[Andy Lester]

On Jan 12, 2007, at 4:49 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

I was also wondering whether - given that backpan exists so people  
can always find them if they really want them - there shouldn't be  
a mechanism for removing modules that are unloved and unused.


How in the world could you determine either unloved or unused?  And  
unupdated certainly doesn't mean that they're not valuable.


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Re: Phalanx Phoenix: Mentored Maintenance of CPAN Modules

[Andy Lester]

On Nov 27, 2006, at 9:49 PM, James E Keenan wrote:

Perl Seminar New York, sponsor of monthly technical meetings in New  
York City since 2000 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ 
perlsemny/), announces the initiation of Phalanx Phoenix:   
Mentored Maintenance of CPAN Modules.


This is very cool, James.  Thanks for kicking it off.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Take back your modules! (was: Re: Give up your modules!)

[Andy Lester]

On Sep 7, 2006, at 9:08 AM, Mark Stosberg wrote:


I say: If you are care about a module's maintenance, start acting like
you own it, being considering that others, especially the current
maintainer, may feel the same way.


Nice.  Worthy of a use.perl.org post so others can see it.  Maybe  
perlmonks too.


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Re: Give up your modules!

[Andy Lester]

On Aug 14, 2006, at 9:18 AM, Ricardo SIGNES wrote:


* Gabor Szabo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-14T07:00:10]
e.g. a big red sign on search.cpan.org next to each module that  
has open bugs

in RT and has not been updated for the past 6 months...


I use this script to find bugs in mail-handling code or code I  
maintain.


It's a program.

(Re-making my mental note to transcribe Stop saying 'script')

xoxo,
Andy

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Dependency trees

[Andy Lester]

Is there anything out there that will generate a tree of  
dependencies, probably based on META.yml?


I figure I can pass in Mason, Test::WWW::Mechanize and Catalyst and  
get back a list of dependencies that those require.  It would be the  
entire tree, so like so:


Test::WWW::Mechanize
Test::Builder
WWW::Mechanize
LWP::UserAgent
HTTP::Response
HTML::Form
HTML::Tree
Blah::Blah
Test::LongString
Test::Builder
Blah::Blah

If it doesn't exist, I'll write it.  I just don't want to reinvent  
the wheel.


Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy

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Re: App::* - what's it for?

[Andy Lester]

On Apr 10, 2006, at 11:54 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:If not, what is the best place for application code?  Bin::*?  Or should  it just be Foo.pm?  Seems that would cause a lot of namespace clashing. All my apps have App::Foo, because otherwise the CPAN shell doesn't know where to look to update a version number.  So ack has App::Ack, and hwd has App::HWD, etc.xoxo,Andy --Andy Lester = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = www.petdance.com = AIM:petdance 

Re: Assume Co-Maintainership of Mail-Webmail-Gmail

[Andy Lester]

Honestly, though, why would anyone care? GMail offers POP3 access
now, so scraping their web pages to get at the information is a
pointless excercise.


I don't see that it matters.

Besides, it keeps him busy!

--
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Re: advice on where to put my perl modules

[Andy Lester]

Don't worry about creating a top-level namespace called MyLibrary if  
it relates to your app.  You don't want to start your own top-level  
space of something very generic, but if you have an app called  
MyLibrary then by all means, feel free to distribute it as MyLibrary  
and a whole bunch of MyLibrary::Foo and MyLibrary::Bar modules.   
There's no reason not to.


That being said, if you call your DB handling stuff MyLibrary::DBI  
then nobody's going to use it.  You might want to make some other  
name for that.


For example, the ticket-tracking system RT makes heavy use of a  
database abstraction layer called DBIx::SearchBuilder.  RT is the key  
user of DBIx::SearchBuilder, and in fact, that's WHY DBIx::SB even  
exists, but Jesse abstracted it out into a generic enough module that  
it made sense to release separately.


Ping me some time in AIM or Skype and let's look at what your  
MyLibrary stuff is and how you could genericize out the good parts  
into stuff that maybe non-MyLibrary people would use.


xoa

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Re: advice on where to put my perl modules

[Andy Lester]

Is there another word for Library and Library Science? The word
library is a term with many meanings.


There's already stuff in Bibilio::, which is what was sort of what  
was decided on last time this came up, over on perl4lib, I think.



--
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Re: advice on where to put my perl modules

[Andy Lester]

This idea, putting the whole of MyLibrary under Biblio (sic),  
sounds very appealing to me. If I were to put it there would that  
mean I would have to rename all of my modules to  
Biblio::MyLibrary::Foo, Biblio::MyLibrary::Bar, etc? If so, then I  
think that is a small price to pay in exchange for a place to  
logically put my modules.


If you're going to rename MyLibrary::CallNumber to  
Biblio::CallNumber, that makes sense.  It doesn't make sense to  
rename to Biblio::MyLibrary::CallNumber.


Use Biblio:: for generic stuff.  Use MyLibrary:: for things related  
to MyLibrary.  Don't use both.


xoa

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Re: advice on where to put my perl modules

[Andy Lester]

Finally, the reason Andy Lester was saying hit him up on AIM is that
he spent 15 years working as a Perl/library scientist
(http://petdance.com/resume/). brian d foy told us at the Los Angeles
Perl Mongers meeting that he recently left that job for SocialText.


Eric and I have lived on the same lists for a number of years.

Now how did I come up at the LA.PM meeting?  And he is correct, I did  
leave for Socialtext.  I start Monday. http://use.perl.org/~petdance/ 
journal/28224


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Re: Another CPANTS/pod_coverage.t rant - FULL VERSION

[Andy Lester]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 07:40:59AM -0500, David Golden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
 How about one that makes pod/pod-coverage skip-all by default unless the 
 author explicitly changes the .t files to turn them on?

No.  Module::Starter is a case where I'm using the package as
evangelism.  

Users can rm t/*.t; perl -ni -e'print unless m[t/pod]' MANIFEST if
they don't like the tests.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Another CPANTS/pod_coverage.t rant - FULL VERSION

[Andy Lester]

On Nov 14, 2005, at 9:20 PM, Ovid wrote:


--- Andy Lester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

No.  Module::Starter is a case where I'm using the package as
evangelism.


If it's for evangalism, could we have Build.PL do the right thing and
have Module::Starter::Simple add the following line?

  create_makefile_pl = 'traditional',

The reasons are detailed in
http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=458282


Yes, send ticket to the RT queue.

If it's already in there, we'll get to it.

xoxo,
Andy


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Re: Another CPANTS/pod_coverage.t rant - FULL VERSION

[Andy Lester]

There's a Dennis Miller bit I love.  He's talking about how he's  
looking at an issue of Cosmopolitan and is horrified to see an  
article called Trick Your Man Into Making Tex-Mex.  He's  
incredulous.  Trick me?  Fuckin' ASK ME!



Thoughts?  If we can get a consensus on this or a similar approach,  
then perhaps we can get it consistently used across Module::Starter  
and friends, ExtUtils::ModuleMaker and friends, and CPANTS  
documentation.


Patches to Module::Starter are always welcome.  My ears are always  
open.  Your ideas make sense, especially about noting the  
Pod::Coverage version.


xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Checking for boilerplate

[Andy Lester]

Perhaps a Test::Boilerplate module is in order, which can be used  
by Module::Starter, Module::Release, CPANTS, PAUSE, and any other  
place that somebody deems it necessary.


That was my original idea anyhow.


So let's see it.  From there, we can figure out if it's something  
that we want to use.


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Re: Checking for boilerplate

[Andy Lester]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 10:51:14AM -0500, David Nicol ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 gotta put the checks in PAUSE so it rejects boilerplate-havin modules
 -- anything
 less won't work

ITYM won't work 100% at solving this problem that really isn't that
huge of a problem anyway.

Remember, CPAN thrives BECAUSE we allow unfettered uploading of shit,
not in spite of it.

http://use.perl.org/~petdance/journal/25684


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Re: Checking for boilerplate

[Andy Lester]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 11:25:56AM -0500, Chris Dolan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Remember, CPAN thrives BECAUSE we allow unfettered uploading of shit,
 not in spite of it.
 
 Now there's a quote that needs to be added to the use.perl.org footer  
 rotation.  :-)

It's only funny 'cause it's true.

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Re: Checking for boilerplate

[Andy Lester]

1) I'm not a big fan of email obfuscation, though I might be in the 
minority. Most forms are just as easy to parse as a regular email 
address. And obfuscation feels too much like surrendering. Just my 
opinion. But an option might be nice if not too much trouble.


I agree in principle, but I also have all the spam in the Test::Harness 
RT database and it drives me nuts.




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Re: RFC - Test::Stupid module

[Andy Lester]

On Mon, Aug 22, 2005 at 10:30:01AM +0200, David Landgren ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
 Or have Module::Starter know how to include site-local boilerplate. I 

It does.  Plugins.

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Re: RFC - Test::Stupid module

[Andy Lester]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2005 at 03:21:00AM -0700, David Baird ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Maybe you could combine these techniques
 to keep it really simple for the really stupid.

How about if we get off our thrones and stop referring to people who
take the time to put out their code on CPAN as really stupid?

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: RFC - Test::Stupid module

[Andy Lester]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2005 at 07:40:10AM -0700, David Baird ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Sure, but the point remains, perhaps better stated as make it really
 easy for the really lazy, including me. I'm all in favour of modules
 that help *me* not make an ass of myself. We're all potential victims
 of our own stupidity.

You can use Module::Starter.  I tried to make sure it used much better
defaults, including putting the name and email address in there for you.
Patches welcome.

xoxo,
Andy

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Re: Bootstrapping a module community

[Andy Lester]

What's the best way to spread the word about a new module?  I've  
got a few
modules that I think a lot of people would find useful.  They're  
still in
active development (pre-1.0) but I'd like as many people as  
possible to try
them so I can get feedback from the community.  How do I spread the  
word
about these modules?
It would be a lot easier to help you if we knew the specifics of the  
modules you're talking about.

xoa

Re: Bootstrapping a module community

[Andy Lester]

The first is my object/relational database mapper thingie.  I don't  
know
what the formal name for it is, but it's in roughly the same family as
Class::DBI, Alzabo, Tangram, etc.  I think this module has the most
potential for wide-spread interest, judging by how much activity  
there is
surrounding the current mindshare leader, Class::DBI.

Your first goal will be explaining in 25 words or fewer why your  
mapper thing is better than Class::DBI.  When you have a module space  
as overloaded as that, you've got to do some marketing.  Don't expect  
that you'll put your module out there, set up some lists, and people  
will come flocking to it.

So what are the high points?  Why should someone use yours instead of  
Class::DBI?  Or even switch from Class::DBI?