Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Yup that is an understatement - one of the reasons why I was attracted to the project... When the biggest cause of corruption seems to be faulty RAID hardware then you know that you are onto a winner. I did some tests, with the aide of one of the developers, to simulate corruption (I was worried about faulty desktop disks corrupting other databases on sync). It was damn difficult to get it past the local mtn process without it detecting it and then pretty much impossible (I never got it to sync with a corrupted db - but very difficult to prove a negative etc) to get it past the sync stage :-). hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:41:50PM +0100, CooSoft Support wrote: It has proved to be totally reliable That's for me is the most important thing about monotone, trumping all other considerations. The monotone developers are more paranoid about data loss than I am. -- hendrik. ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Sorry if this has been mentioned before. I used to run mtn on a SPARC server at work. The database was 1.5GB ~5 revisions ~3000 branches and ~1 tags. It was very easy to set up and maintain. It pretty much ran itself. The server had 4GB of memory and it never got close to using that (maybe ~1GB during a big sync). No issues really. Sync performance could be slow but that is related to the number of branch tags you sync against and not the number of revisions. I used to keep up to date on the release branch and that would check and sync ~45000 revisions in 15 or so seconds (on SPARC hardware so not high performance). It has proved to be totally reliable and other areas are looking into possibly using it. It has got a very clean cli and most tools are available cross platform (and we have used these as well). Incidentally they are still happily using monotone, but I have moved jobs and hence the past tense above! :-) Cheers, Tony. Gour wrote: On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:57:25 +0200 Thomas == Thomas Keller m...@thomaskeller.biz wrote: Thomas Have you ever tried ikiwiki? This is a nice and very expandable Thomas (plugins) wiki engine which comes with support for different Thomas SCMs, amongst them monotone. Nope, but weas reading about it... Thomas Basically texinfo, what Stephen said, with lots of custom Thomas hacked CSS from me to make it pretty :) Heh, it really does not look like common texinfo stuff. :-) Thomas Well, I can't exactly say if monotone is the right tool for you Thomas - as others said it works good for medium-size projects, but Thomas can be slow for particular use cases, like very big trees (tens Thomas of thousands of files) and many, many concurrent users. We won't most probably have such a project. Thomas But we're actually still want you to test it out if it works, Thomas because you have a very good and easy exit strategy with our Thomas fast export to git, which is understood by other SCMs as well. :-) I'm more interesting for enter stategy. ;) Thomas We discussed that here over and over and basically it was some Thomas kind of generation change, the original developer(s) left the Thomas project, probably also a bit overrun by the tremendous success Thomas of git, and a few people who kept loving this SCM kept around Thomas and tried to start anew. The community is small and the amount Thomas of active developers is even smaller, but thats the classic Thomas vicious circle, not many users will not lead to many patche - Thomas still, we fight and continue to fight on all fronts as time Thomas permits. How many devs are actively working on mtn? It seems people should become burnt with Git before looking for alternatives. Thomas I guess in the (near) future indefero (http://indefero.net) Thomas will also offer monotone hosting. I'm currently just waiting Thomas for my patch [0] to get included in their trunk, which should Thomas happen within the next couple of days. Great news! Thomas I have a monotone server running on a small-sized VPS with only Thomas 200MB fixed RAM and the ability to boost that to 600MB, and I Thomas have many other memory hogs on this system as well Thomas (spamassassin f.e.). The server works quite well and fast - Thomas though it only serves a couple of smaller branches, one of them Thomas being guitone. Not bad. Maybe I should try to install some repo on my WF account and check it out. Still, indefero option sounds great. ;) Thomas I'm the author of guitone and I'd say the recent versions Thomas should be very well capable of replacing the CLI indeed (after Thomas all guitone is targeted at exactly your envisioned user group). Wonderful! Thomas I'd love to get some earlier feedback Thomas from you on guitone though, so I'd be happy if you try it out Thomas before it hits 1.0 :) I created package for Archlinux and installed. Now I need to learn more about mtn and then I'll put guitone to some more serious testing providing you with (hopefully) some valauble feedback. Thanks a lot for your input. Sincerely, Gour ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:41:50PM +0100, CooSoft Support wrote: It has proved to be totally reliable That's for me is the most important thing about monotone, trumping all other considerations. The monotone developers are more paranoid about data loss than I am. -- hendrik. ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:41:50 +0100 CooSoft == CooSoft Support supp...@coosoft.plus.com wrote: CooSoft Sorry if this has been mentioned before. I used to run mtn CooSoft on a SPARC server at work. The database was 1.5GB ~5 CooSoft revisions ~3000 branches and ~1 tags. It was very easy to CooSoft set up and maintain. It pretty much ran itself. The server had CooSoft 4GB of memory and it never got close to using that (maybe ~1GB CooSoft during a big sync). No issues really. Sync performance could CooSoft be slow but that is related to the number of branch tags you CooSoft sync against and not the number of revisions. Thank you for sharing...However, although I've 8GB on my desktop machine, my server abilities are in the MB domain. :-) For now, my best bet is to see Monotone support at Indefero and becoming free from admin my own server for the code. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:39:57 -0400 hendrik == hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: hendrik That's for me is the most important thing about monotone, hendrik trumping all other considerations. The monotone developers hendrik are more paranoid about data loss than I am. So far, I went (twice) through the tutorial, skimmed once through the whole docs and now I'm reading 'Advanced Uses'...all I can say I'm impressed with design choices and as soon as I could put mtn repo at Indefero I'll become fulltime mtn user. (we hope fast-git-import will be sorted out as well, so we can import all our old darcs repos.) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:21:11 +0200
Patrick == Patrick Georgi patr...@georgi-clan.de wrote:
Patrick I used to work on mtn-fast-import, which interprets the
Patrick git-fast-import format and creates a monotone repository from
Patrick it. I didn't work on export due to lack of need, and dropped
Patrick work on it in favor of hg2mtn, which directly uses hg metadata
Patrick (which is less lossy than hg-git-mtn) which was my primary
Patrick concern.
Hmm, based on my experience, hg's fast-import/export was the weakest
from {bzr,darcs,hg,git} and considering that I do not track much of hg
repos...
Still, nice to hear there is some work on the filed of
interoperability with other VCS-s...Monotone is approaching 1.0 and
would be nice to be ready for monotone-world-dominion. ;)
Patrick I put up the code at https://code.georgi-clan.de/p/hg2mtn/ but
Patrick didn't test/use it in a long time. Feel free to try it, and to
Patrick report issues. I'm also on IRC (irc.oftc.net, #monotone), but
Patrick I might be a bit slow to react for the next two weeks.
OK. I'm 'gour' there.
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
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[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:47:07 -0400 Stephen == stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org wrote: Stephen mtn works on Linux, Mac, and Win32 (native and Cygwin). Some Stephen features are not supported on Win32 native, but all work on Stephen Win32 Cygwin. What is missing on Win32? (not utterly important, just curious) Stephen There is an Emacs front-end called DVC. I consider that a GUI, Stephen but some people don't. I maintain it, and it almost eliminates Stephen the need for mtn command line. Very nice...I was considering using it, but darcs is not well supported (that's why I have to use darcsum), but support for monotone misses, accroding to the table, support for pull? Stephen One issue is the version number; 0.48 sounds experimental. Stephen There will be a 1.0 soon. Yeah, I've seen...around fall? Stephen b) there are some possibilities for hosting darcs repos, but, Stephen according to the wiki, there is only one site offering Stephen public hosting for monotone. Do I miss some? Stephen Stephen If you use ssh access, there is very little admin burden for a Stephen mtn server; just creating user accounts. Good. Is ViewMTN now part of monotone? We'd like to provide web access for the code. Stephen The mtn version on the server does not have to be up to date; Stephen the netsync protocol changes very slowly. Good. Stephen c) considering b) it seems practical to think about using Stephen one's own hosting for the project, I'm curious about memory Stephen requirements on the server (for medium-sized project)? Stephen Stephen Obviously, it needs a medium-sized memory :). mtn uses sqlite Stephen for the backend database; that reads the entire database into Stephen memory. Hmm...this needs some further investigation to discern how many MBs we are talking here... Stephen With ssh access, only one user can access the db at a time; Stephen that reduces the memory requirements over running multi-user Stephen access. That doesn't work well if you have _lots_ of users Stephen (since the probability of collisions goes up). But the time Stephen each user locks the database is pretty short, so it really is Stephen _lots_ of users. Sorry, no numbers; it also depends on the Stephen work flow; how often each user syncs. No anticipation for _lots_of multi-user access. If it will happen, then we can think about it. Stephen d) similar to Fossil, monotone is a bit isolated in its own Stephen universe due to the lack of interoperability tools. Stephen Stephen Can you be more specific? Which tools in particular are not Stephen there? X-import for importing from X DVCS and (possibly) doing 2-way sync. Tailor developer told me that mtn support is 'stable' in the sense that there are no new patches for years, so we have to find out how the present tailor works with current version of mtn. Moreover, there is only single public hosting for mtn repos which means that one has to arrange one's own setup for hosting the code, bug tracker etc. Thank you for input. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:33:45 +0200 Ludovic == ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org wrote: Ludovic - Linus considered monotone and decided to write git instead Ludovic because monotone was too slow for his use, so lots of people Ludovic noe believe monotone is slow Heh, 'urban legends' :-) Ludovic - Monotone does not serve over HTTP, so hosting is a bit Ludovic difficult That's a good point. Ludovic - Monotone is for adults :) Ludovic Ludovic The reasons are, in fact, similar for those for not using Ludovic Haskell :) lol. However, haskell is opening market in the multi-core market, what mtn brings? Seriously, I'm only concerned about the 'hosting'. The other two reasons are not problematic. Ludovic b) there are some possibilities for hosting darcs repos, but, Ludovic according to the wiki, there is only one site offering Ludovic public hosting for monotone. Do I miss some? Ludovic Ludovic There is a second one, Ludovic http://www.ada-france.org/article131.html but only for Ada Ludovic projects (I'm the admin). Heh, never tried it and probably I won't. ;) Ludovic The monotone server currently running on ada-france.org uses Ludovic 159 MiB of virtual memory. While syncing a second monotone Ludovic process uses 39 MiB. How many projects are hosted there? Data on the web site seems not to be up-to-date...Otoh, I'm interested to host one project only...Cannot say how many LOCs it could be. E.g. darcs' SLOC is 36,746 with ~8500 patches or 'changesets'. Is it considered medium-sized project for mtn and how many MBs we would require to serve it? Ludovic It works well; I use it to nightly replicate a large Subversion Ludovic repository into monotone. I can provide help if you have Ludovic specific questions. Thanks a lot. LEt me read try some concrete things with mtn before playing with converting of repos. Ludovic e) I'll try for myself, but let me ask whether Guitone is Ludovic capable to replace need for cli for less experienced users? Ludovic Ludovic I use the command line and emacs, sorry. Same here. Do you also use DVC? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Hey Gour, I would just like to put my viewpoint here as well. I run a fairly small installation here, with only about 20 branches, and only maybe five of those in active use. Some of them have high binary content, but the rest are all text. I'm self-hosted. My comments to your concerns are below. On Sun, 27 Jun 2010, Gour wrote: On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:47:07 -0400 Stephen == stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org wrote: Stephen One issue is the version number; 0.48 sounds experimental. Stephen There will be a 1.0 soon. Yeah, I've seen...around fall? Just to be clear, the point here, in my view is not that monotone will reach 1.0, but that Monotone is just changing versioning schemes. I've been wonderfully impressed with Monotone's stability, and I can say that I have had great luck in that respect, except for one bug that caused some synching issues which were fixed very quickly. Stephen c) considering b) it seems practical to think about using Stephen one's own hosting for the project, I'm curious about memory Stephen requirements on the server (for medium-sized project)? Stephen Stephen Obviously, it needs a medium-sized memory :). mtn uses sqlite Stephen for the backend database; that reads the entire database into Stephen memory. Hmm...this needs some further investigation to discern how many MBs we are talking here... In the setup, which I mentioned above, I don't have a lot of concurrent users, but I run the server reliably an right now it is using about 16mb of memory. My database is only about 100MB - 200MB right now. That gives you an idea of what a small installation looks like. Stephen d) similar to Fossil, monotone is a bit isolated in its own Stephen universe due to the lack of interoperability tools. Stephen Stephen Can you be more specific? Which tools in particular are not Stephen there? X-import for importing from X DVCS and (possibly) doing 2-way sync. By this I assume that X is a variable over the possible DVCS systems out there? Moreover, there is only single public hosting for mtn repos which means that one has to arrange one's own setup for hosting the code, bug tracker etc. I can report on this. I run a Slackware64 box on ServerPronto's networks and with their machines. It was very easy to configure and setup monotone. I also installed Trac, which was very easy as well. I haven't installed ViewMTN, but I will probably do this some time. In my opinion the lack of many shared hosting options for doing Monotone shouldn't scare you away, if you have the basic knowledge of how to run a server. Aaron W. Hsu ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:57:25 +0200 Thomas == Thomas Keller m...@thomaskeller.biz wrote: Thomas Have you ever tried ikiwiki? This is a nice and very expandable Thomas (plugins) wiki engine which comes with support for different Thomas SCMs, amongst them monotone. Nope, but weas reading about it... Thomas Basically texinfo, what Stephen said, with lots of custom Thomas hacked CSS from me to make it pretty :) Heh, it really does not look like common texinfo stuff. :-) Thomas Well, I can't exactly say if monotone is the right tool for you Thomas - as others said it works good for medium-size projects, but Thomas can be slow for particular use cases, like very big trees (tens Thomas of thousands of files) and many, many concurrent users. We won't most probably have such a project. Thomas But we're actually still want you to test it out if it works, Thomas because you have a very good and easy exit strategy with our Thomas fast export to git, which is understood by other SCMs as well. :-) I'm more interesting for enter stategy. ;) Thomas We discussed that here over and over and basically it was some Thomas kind of generation change, the original developer(s) left the Thomas project, probably also a bit overrun by the tremendous success Thomas of git, and a few people who kept loving this SCM kept around Thomas and tried to start anew. The community is small and the amount Thomas of active developers is even smaller, but thats the classic Thomas vicious circle, not many users will not lead to many patche - Thomas still, we fight and continue to fight on all fronts as time Thomas permits. How many devs are actively working on mtn? It seems people should become burnt with Git before looking for alternatives. Thomas I guess in the (near) future indefero (http://indefero.net) Thomas will also offer monotone hosting. I'm currently just waiting Thomas for my patch [0] to get included in their trunk, which should Thomas happen within the next couple of days. Great news! Thomas I have a monotone server running on a small-sized VPS with only Thomas 200MB fixed RAM and the ability to boost that to 600MB, and I Thomas have many other memory hogs on this system as well Thomas (spamassassin f.e.). The server works quite well and fast - Thomas though it only serves a couple of smaller branches, one of them Thomas being guitone. Not bad. Maybe I should try to install some repo on my WF account and check it out. Still, indefero option sounds great. ;) Thomas I'm the author of guitone and I'd say the recent versions Thomas should be very well capable of replacing the CLI indeed (after Thomas all guitone is targeted at exactly your envisioned user group). Wonderful! Thomas I'd love to get some earlier feedback Thomas from you on guitone though, so I'd be happy if you try it out Thomas before it hits 1.0 :) I created package for Archlinux and installed. Now I need to learn more about mtn and then I'll put guitone to some more serious testing providing you with (hopefully) some valauble feedback. Thanks a lot for your input. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Stephen Leake wrote: Obviously, it needs a medium-sized memory :). mtn uses sqlite for the backend database; that reads the entire database into memory. Uh? Entire DB in memory? I don't think it does... of course if it fits then access of the next users is faster, but that's normal filesystem cache issues, not monotone loading it all. Not the last time I checked, at least... Myself I've sync'ed the database with the photos of the last summits a few times, and that's for sure bigger than the RAM of laptop I did use. With ssh access, only one user can access the db at a time OTOH the 'usual' access is directly with netsync protocol, and that does not have that limit: many users can sync concurrently (OTOH it's more difficult to set up... as difficult as creating a couple of text configuration files and starting the server at boot time, though). -- Lapo Luchini - http://lapo.it/ “X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” (Lord Kelvin, 1883) ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Gour wrote: Thomas The server works quite well and fast - Thomas though it only serves a couple of smaller branches, one of them Thomas being guitone. Not bad. Maybe I should try to install some repo on my WF account and check it out. In my experience a server serving all my small projects plus a comlpete copy of mtn itself's repository used up about 200MB of RAM, but since my server was very much memory-constrained, I decided to use usher (a small daemon that spawns mtn server on-demand) and that uses about 6MB of resident memory while waiting for calls, and the spawned mtn process takes up to 105MB while sync'ing the whole mtn tree (which is a DB 200MB worth, but really I don't think the memory needed is related to the database size). But you can check it yourself easily enough (taking a bit of time): 1. choose an existing project that matches and pull it locally, e.g. my existing local copy of the monotone repository itself (branch net.venge.monotone and some selected ones of the others). 2. spawn a local copy of the server 3. sync with it locally 4. check the server size that is: [1] % mtn -d test.mtn db init % mtn -d test.mtn pull monotone.ca net.venge.monotone [2] % mtn -d test.mtn serve --bind 127.0.0.1:4691 [3] % mtn -d test2.mtn db init % mtn -d test2.mtn pull 127.0.0.1 net.venge.monotone [4] % ps waux|fgrep mtn -- Lapo Luchini - http://lapo.it/ “We do what we must because we can.” (videogame Portal, 2007) ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Aaron == Aaron W. Hsu arcf...@sacrideo.us wrote: Aaron In the setup, which I mentioned above, I don't have a lot of Aaron concurrent users, but I run the server reliably an right now it Aaron is using about 16mb of memory. My database is only about 100MB - Aaron 200MB right now. That gives you an idea of what a small Aaron installation looks like. This is encouraging. Aaron By this I assume that X is a variable over the possible DVCS Aaron systems out there? Yes, although majority of my repos are in darcs, but I could do darcs -- git -- mtn Aaron In my opinion the lack of many shared hosting options for doing Aaron Monotone shouldn't scare you away, if you have the basic Aaron knowledge of how to run a server. I've the knowledge, but hte variable in equation is 'time', However, prospect of having Indefero hosting sounds terrific! Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Aaron == Aaron W. Hsu arcf...@sacrideo.us wrote: Aaron I have successfully used it as a substitute for command-line Aaron work for someone who had no idea about how to use the command Aaron line at all. Nice. Aaron Guitone is also not just for beginners. I use it occassionally Aaron and find it quite pleasant. Even better. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
[Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 16:49:49 +0200 (CEST) Richard == Richard Levitte rich...@levitte.org wrote: Richard on monotone.ca (which serves more than monotone, by the way), I Richard collected the following data for you: Thank you. All in all I must say that I'm very excited to see how user-friendly is Monotone community. Kudos to all! Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: is monotone for me?
Gour g...@gour-nitai.com writes: On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:47:07 -0400 Stephen == stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org wrote: Stephen mtn works on Linux, Mac, and Win32 (native and Cygwin). Some Stephen features are not supported on Win32 native, but all work on Stephen Win32 Cygwin. What is missing on Win32? (not utterly important, just curious) file: and ssh: netsync transports, and user formatted date parsing. Stephen There is an Emacs front-end called DVC. I consider that a GUI, Stephen but some people don't. I maintain it, and it almost eliminates Stephen the need for mtn command line. Very nice...I was considering using it, but darcs is not well supported (that's why I have to use darcsum), but support for monotone misses, accroding to the table, support for pull? I do pull, push, and sync from the command line. I have recently decided I should integrate that with the GUI, so I can easily process the list of revisions that are pulled; update the corresponding workspace, review the changes. -- -- Stephe ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
