Re: [MD] George Steiner interview
John L. McConnell said: If you qualify experience as physical experience, then a level of experience beyond that makes perfect sense. Andre: The MoQ is not only about 'physical experience'. It identifies at least 5 that I am aware of. JLM: I can think of two self-imposed limitations of the MOQ: 1. Its deliberate avoidance of theistic language constrains it. How can you talk about absolute reality without using the language of Absolute Reality? Andre: The MoQ is, as far as I understand it, non-theistic. Where from the need to use theistic language in a non theistic metaphysics? What is Absolute Reality? JLM: 2. It remains open-ended. To the extent that open-endedness allows it to be extended, expanded, enhanced, and in general, used in many ways to make living, working, and thinking better, that's not a limitation. I thin that's what Dr, Pirsig intended. Andre: Agreed, but I can't see NON open-endedness as an inherent aspect of the MoQ. What makes you think it is NOT open-ended? The only qualification, I suppose, would be that any extension, expansion, enhancement and betterment is that it meets the standards of the MoQ itself. Unless you can think of a better metaphysics than Pirsig's MoQ? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative persons. Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. ...The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last. In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. At first the classes were excited by this exercise, but as time went on they became bored. What he meant by Quality was obvious. They obviously knew what it was too, and so they lost interest in listening. Their question now was 'All right, we know what Quality is. How do we get it?'Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. What had started out as a heresy from traditional rhetoric turned into a beautiful introduction to it.He singled out aspects of Quality such as unity, vividness, authority, economy, sensitivity, clarity, emphasis, flow, suspense, [brilliance, precision, proportion, depth and so on]; kept each of these as poorly defined as Quality itself, but demonstrated them by the same class reading techniques. He showed how the aspec t of Quality called unity, the hanging-togetherness of a story, could be improved with a technique called an outline. The authority of an argument could be jacked up with a technique called footnotes, which gives authoritative reference. Outlines and footnotes are standard things taught in all freshman composition classes, but now as devices for improving Quality they had a purpose.Now that was over with. By reversing a basic rule that all things which are to be taught must first be defined, he had found a way out of all this. He was pointing to no principle, no rule of good writing, no theory but he was pointing to something, nevertheless, that was very real, whose reality they couldn't deny. The vacuum that had been created by the withholding of grades (another experiment he created) was suddenly filled with the positive goal of Quality, and the whole thing fit together. Students, astonished, came by his office and said, I used to just hate English. Now I spend more time on it than anything else. Not just one or two. Many. The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last.In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. The students discovered this on their own. Well, not completely on their own. But he began to wonder why it worked. And he soon realised that this was no small gimmick. The students biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and -whip grading, a mule mentality which said, If you don't whip me, I won't work. He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him. This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, the system, is pulled by mules. ...The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man. The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one hed abandoned, in what used to be called the school of hard knocks. Instead of wasting money and time as a high-status mule, he would now have to get a job as a low-status mule, maybe as a mechanic. Actually his real status would go up. He would be making a contribution for a change. Maybe thats what he would do for the rest of his life. Maybe hed found his level. But dont count on it. In time six months; five years, perhaps a change could easily begin to take place. He would become less and less satisfied with a kind of dumb, day-to-day shopwork. His creative intelligence, stifled by too much theory and too many grades in college, would now become re-awakened by the
Re: [MD] 42
[Dan] Interesting... from what I understand, what Pirsig did was to actively engage the students in evaluating their own work. [Arlo] Before we move any further on this path, Dan, let me ask a question. Given the above, do you think Pirsig's expertise (in content? in pedagogy?) was in any way valuable to the student? Overall, do you think there is a role for an expert/mentor/instructor at all? In the above, it suggests (to me) that motivating/encouraging is the optimal role, so an ideal instructor would be someone who simply says keep trying and nothing more. Moreover, as I read your points, it seems to suggest that simply providing libraries or information repositories is a better model than having an expert presence at all. So, let me ask, given your criticisms, what would something better look like? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Hi Arlo, Dan, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 8:47 AM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR ajb...@psu.eduwrote: [Dan] Interesting... from what I understand, what Pirsig did was to actively engage the students in evaluating their own work. [Arlo] Before we move any further on this path, Dan, let me ask a question. Given the above, do you think Pirsig's expertise (in content? in pedagogy?) was in any way valuable to the student? Overall, do you think there is a role for an expert/mentor/instructor at all? In the above, it suggests (to me) that motivating/encouraging is the optimal role, so an ideal instructor would be someone who simply says keep trying and nothing more. J: The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them. Remember in ZAMM when somebody stuck their head in the class because of the hubbub and Pirsig goes we stumbled upon a hard question WE. It's not some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot. It's somebody who is so interested in his subject that his interest is catching. A: Moreover, as I read your points, it seems to suggest that simply providing libraries or information repositories is a better model than having an expert presence at all. So, let me ask, given your criticisms, what would something better look like? J: I know that was aimed at Dan, but I'd been thinking Arlo... a lot of the necessity of the academy and academics was in the storage and communication of the classics and a certain way of thinking. A lot of their utility is being threatened by google. It used to be, ask an academic if you had a hard question. Now it's google it and it's a foreboding for the future. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Dave, Exactly what I was aiming for, I am Sincerely glad that you returned to The MD. Yourself and Arlo, Andre Too, have communicated the ideas I also hold but unfortunately I am Unable to express them with the level Of proficiency that you gentlemen have displayed at the moment. Having sustained a few painful Injuries it has really limited my ability To contribute the way I would like. Thank you Ron Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:08 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative persons. Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. ...The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last. In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. At first the classes were excited by this exercise, but as time went on they became bored. What he meant by Quality was obvious. They obviously knew what it was too, and so they lost interest in listening. Their question now was 'All right, we know what Quality is. How do we get it?'Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. What had started out as a heresy from traditional rhetoric turned into a beautiful introduction to it.He singled out aspects of Quality such as unity, vividness, authority, economy, sensitivity, clarity, emphasis, flow, suspense, [brilliance, precision, proportion, depth and so on]; kept each of these as poorly defined as Quality itself, but demonstrated them by the same class reading techniques. He showed how the asp ec t of Quality called unity, the hanging-togetherness of a story, could be improved with a technique called an outline. The authority of an argument could be jacked up with a technique called footnotes, which gives authoritative reference. Outlines and footnotes are standard things taught in all freshman composition classes, but now as devices for improving Quality they had a purpose.Now that was over with. By reversing a basic rule that all things which are to be taught must first be defined, he had found a way out of all this. He was pointing to no principle, no rule of good writing, no theory but he was pointing to something, nevertheless, that was very real, whose reality they couldn't deny. The vacuum that had been created by the withholding of grades (another experiment he created) was suddenly filled with the positive goal of Quality, and the whole thing fit together. Students, astonished, came by his office and said, I used to just hate English. Now I spend more time on it than anything else. Not just one or two. Many. The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last.In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. The students discovered this on their own. Well, not completely on their own. But he began to wonder why it worked. And he soon realised that this was no small gimmick. The students biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and -whip grading, a mule mentality which said, If you don't whip me, I won't work. He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him. This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, the system, is pulled by mules. ...The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man. The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one hed abandoned, in what used to be called the school of hard knocks. Instead of wasting money and time as a
Re: [MD] 42
Ron, sorry to hear you're sore On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Dave, Exactly what I was aiming for, I am Sincerely glad that you returned to The MD. Yourself and Arlo, Andre Too, have communicated the ideas I also hold but unfortunately I am Unable to express them with the level Of proficiency that you gentlemen have displayed at the moment. Having sustained a few painful Injuries it has really limited my ability To contribute the way I would like. Thank you Ron Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:08 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative persons. Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. ...The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last. In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. At first the classes were excited by this exercise, but as time went on they became bored. What he meant by Quality was obvious. They obviously knew what it was too, and so they lost interest in listening. Their question now was 'All right, we know what Quality is. How do we get it?'Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. What had started out as a heresy from traditional rhetoric turned into a beautiful introduction to it.He singled out aspects of Quality such as unity, vividness, authority, economy, sensitivity, clarity, emphasis, flow, suspense, [brilliance, precision, proportion, depth and so on]; kept each of these as poorly defined as Quality itself, but demonstrated them by the same class reading techniques. He showed how the asp ec t of Quality called unity, the hanging-togetherness of a story, could be improved with a technique called an outline. The authority of an argument could be jacked up with a technique called footnotes, which gives authoritative reference. Outlines and footnotes are standard things taught in all freshman composition classes, but now as devices for improving Quality they had a purpose.Now that was over with. By reversing a basic rule that all things which are to be taught must first be defined, he had found a way out of all this. He was pointing to no principle, no rule of good writing, no theory but he was pointing to something, nevertheless, that was very real, whose reality they couldn't deny. The vacuum that had been created by the withholding of grades (another experiment he created) was suddenly filled with the positive goal of Quality, and the whole thing fit together. Students, astonished, came by his office and said, I used to just hate English. Now I spend more time on it than anything else. Not just one or two. Many. The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last.In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. The students discovered this on their own. Well, not completely on their own. But he began to wonder why it worked. And he soon realised that this was no small gimmick. The students biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and -whip grading, a mule mentality which said, If you don't whip me, I won't work. He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him. This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, the system, is pulled by mules. ...The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man. The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one hed abandoned, in what used to be called
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Joe, On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. J: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by DQ/SQ metaphysics (so many people have different ideas) but in plain old english, words express reality/experience through a combination of logic and analogy/metaphor/story. Logic by itself doesn't get anywhere. Joe: DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. John: seems to me that if something is truly indefinable, then the only way it can maintain its meaning is if you don't define it (talk about it). Joe: How can a meaning of words be indefinable? John: It can't, that was my point. Joe: One size does not fit all! John: unless it's a real big size and you don't mind it fittin' baggy. Joe: Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! John: How many selves are there? As many as you need. Joe: Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. John: The will to be comes before actual being. Joe: DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. If Quality = experience then your DQ/SQ hosts reality is mere tautology but thanks anyway, John Joe Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Thanks John, Broken ribs make life Difficult, coupled with The herniated disc it Really effects me and My ability to think. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 2:05 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Ron, sorry to hear you're sore On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Dave, Exactly what I was aiming for, I am Sincerely glad that you returned to The MD. Yourself and Arlo, Andre Too, have communicated the ideas I also hold but unfortunately I am Unable to express them with the level Of proficiency that you gentlemen have displayed at the moment. Having sustained a few painful Injuries it has really limited my ability To contribute the way I would like. Thank you Ron Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:08 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative persons. Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. ...The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last. In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. At first the classes were excited by this exercise, but as time went on they became bored. What he meant by Quality was obvious. They obviously knew what it was too, and so they lost interest in listening. Their question now was 'All right, we know what Quality is. How do we get it?'Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. What had started out as a heresy from traditional rhetoric turned into a beautiful introduction to it.He singled out aspects of Quality such as unity, vividness, authority, economy, sensitivity, clarity, emphasis, flow, suspense, [brilliance, precision, proportion, depth and so on]; kept each of these as poorly defined as Quality itself, but demonstrated them by the same class reading techniques. He showed how the asp ec t of Quality called unity, the hanging-togetherness of a story, could be improved with a technique called an outline. The authority of an argument could be jacked up with a technique called footnotes, which gives authoritative reference. Outlines and footnotes are standard things taught in all freshman composition classes, but now as devices for improving Quality they had a purpose.Now that was over with. By reversing a basic rule that all things which are to be taught must first be defined, he had found a way out of all this. He was pointing to no principle, no rule of good writing, no theory but he was pointing to something, nevertheless, that was very real, whose reality they couldn't deny. The vacuum that had been created by the withholding of grades (another experiment he created) was suddenly filled with the positive goal of Quality, and the whole thing fit together. Students, astonished, came by his office and said, I used to just hate English. Now I spend more time on it than anything else. Not just one or two. Many. The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last.In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. The students discovered this on their own. Well, not completely on their own. But he began to wonder why it worked. And he soon realised that this was no small gimmick. The students biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and -whip grading, a mule mentality which said, If you don't whip me, I won't work. He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him. This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, the system, is pulled by mules. ...The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that
[MD] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
LinkedIn I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - John John Carl General Contractor at RidgeTelnet Yuba City, California Area Confirm that you know John Carl: https://www.linkedin.com/e/632r6p-hqfk5f4a-3s/isd/13677203438/vB54Acce/?hs=falsetok=3HJ0Wtw_8krm41 -- You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Click to unsubscribe: http://www.linkedin.com/e/632r6p-hqfk5f4a-3s/gEwoQ51yH5Ho1dLgfEohfPpJF1yo1dLfN6hM/goo/moq_discuss%40moqtalk%2Eorg/20061/I6269307946_1/?hs=falsetok=3OSDdy2_Ekrm41 (c) 2012 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
John said to Arlo Dan: The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them. ...It's not some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot. dmb says: Yes, it's very important to push back against all those MOQers who keep insisting that the ideal instructor is some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot.. Obviously, these monsters have to be stopped. Please, name some names and show us their arguments - before it's too late. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi John and All, Imho metaphysics is a structure for knowledge. Definition is required for the consideration of structure, true or false! Pirsig proposes a structured DQ/SQ metaphysics. DQ is indefinable. In what form is DQ perceived? A structured experience of individuality 1 becomes the basis for the realization of DQ true or false, not experience itself which remains indefinable DQ/SQ. On 1/14/14 11:02 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: seems to me that if something is truly indefinable, then the only way it can maintain its meaning is if you don't define it (talk about it). Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
[John] The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them. [Arlo] Okay, this is a fairly part of educational reform literature. Are there any criteria, as you see it, that distinguishes an instructor from the students? Or could we, in effect, randomly select a student from a class and designate that student as 'the instructor'? Was there any other value-add that Pirsig brought to the classroom other than as a 'motivator' and 'co-learner'? Did the students benefit from his presence? Would they have benefited equally, or better, without his being there? For what its worth, most graduate level courses are set up around the model of the professor as a co-investigator. Many ask (myself included) why we wait until learners are in fifth-year post-secondary studies before they encounter learning in this model (many answers have been offered, most place economic structures and Piagetian-inspiried pedagogy as dominant factors). But, so let's imagine the classroom where the instructor is, like Pirsig was, part of the class. What else can you tell me about the instructor/student distinction? [John] It's not some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot. [Arlo] Your two comments here, by the way, are described by educational theorists as the guide on the side (above) and the sage on the stage (speaking down to you like you're an idiot). Although even the most ardent lecturists would likely (publicly) renounce those who treat their students like idiots, I think from experience we can safely say that the more sage-like any speaker feels, the more inclined they are to speak as if his audience is 'idiots'. [John] It's somebody who is so interested in his subject that his interest is catching. [Arlo] Sadly, I always wonder why ALL teachers aren't like this. Skill levels, knowledge of pedagogy, classroom strategies, etc. aside, you think that passionate interest in the subject at hand would be an easy norm among teachers. But, in fairness, all too often teachers are 'assigned' courses (typically undergraduate at the college level, which creates even larger problems) they lack both interest and expertise in teaching. This is a part of the current model (related to economic decisions, mostly) that I think must be addressed. [John] I know that was aimed at Dan, but I'd been thinking Arlo... a lot of the necessity of the academy and academics was in the storage and communication of the classics and a certain way of thinking. A lot of their utility is being threatened by google. It used to be, ask a academic if you had a hard question. Now it's google it and it's a foreboding for the future. [Arlo] There are reform initiatives, based on learning taxonomies, that suggest 'lower' order skills like knowledge of facts, terminology, etc. be automated, as you suggest stuff anyone can find on Google (although this does raise the need to address critical thinking skills and information literacy skills among learners), and instructors should be brought in only (mostly) to focus on higher-order skills like analysis and synthesis (in Bloom's taxonomy). In my own thinking, this is moves from know THAT (experiential learning, often informal) to know WHY' (academic learning, abstract theory and structures) to know HOW (authentic practice, applied knowledge). And I think when you look at Pirsig's rhetoric classroom, you see this progression. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Arlo to Dan: Before we move any further on this path, Dan, let me ask a question. Given the above, do you think Pirsig's expertise (in content? in pedagogy?) was in any way valuable to the student? Overall, do you think there is a role for an expert/mentor/instructor at all? In the above, it suggests (to me) that motivating/encouraging is the optimal role, so an ideal instructor would be someone who simply says keep trying and nothing more. Moreover, as I read your points, it seems to suggest that simply providing libraries or information repositories is a better model than having an expert presence at all. So, let me ask, given your criticisms, what would something better look like? Andre: Good exchange of ideas Dan an Arlo and forgive me for butting in but (and I may have the timelines not quite correct here) but wasn't Phaedrus just as much a student of Qualiy as his students were? That is Phaedrus was struggling with this whole question of what Quality is and he involved the students in the exploration thereof. He was looking for ideas well. In this sense I think that Phaedrus' expertise in pedagogy was very valuable (as a guide) as he was just as interested in the answer as each individual student was (and perhaps even more so). Perhaps I see this in the wrong way? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
The ideal student is the one who is not motivated by the mule mentality or slave mentality. That's what eliminating the grades was all about. The grades were the sticks and carrots that produced this mule mentality in the first place. Just as it is with motorcycle maintenance, care is the other side of Quality. I think we cannot do better than Granger on this topic. There is a paper by him on Ant's site called Dewey and Pirsig in Education. [ http://robertpirsig.org/Granger.htm ] Here's a little taste of it... - The student[s'] biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into [them] by years of carrot-and-whip grading, a mule mentality which said, 'If you don't whip me, I won't work.' [They] didn't get whipped. [They] didn't work. And the cart of civilization, which [they] supposedly [were] being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without [them]. (ZMM, 175) Ironically, Pirsig thought, this is in direct contradiction to the academy’s claim that civilization “is best served not by mules but by free men” (ZMM, 175). And education is supposedly the means to this freedom. As tragic as this slave mentality sounds, Pirsig saw that it is unavoidable only if one presumes that the cart of civilization must be propelled by something outside itself, by disinterested mule-selves. Whether these mules are in front of or behind the cart matters little here. In either position, they bespeak of stubborn, laboring beasts – the polar opposite of artistically-engaged human beings -- beasts that have no immediate investment in or sense of connection to the larger cart of civilization. This means that carrots (grades, monetary awards, amusements, special privileges) and whips (punitive threats) are necessary to keep them in line -- what in the vernacular of education is often called being on task. External stimuli and behavioral conditioning become the accepted means to an external end. Take them away and, like Pirsig’s students, the mules protest forlornly or, being inherently passive animals, promptly fall into a torpor. But Pirsig had no desire to punish or cast off his student mules in abolishing grades (ZMM, 175). In fact he was convinced that the whole cart-mule analogy was at once ill-conceived and educationally destructive. I suspect that Dewey would once again concur with Pirsig’s take on the situation. In any number of places, he speaks about the difficulties issuing from the kind of presumed self-world separation endemic to the cart-mule picture. - Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Andre: Sorry about my last post Dan, Arlo and John. Just read the latest posts from the next issues edition where my point had been raised already and adequately answered. Thanks guys. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Ron
Ron said: Broken ribs make life Difficult, coupled with The herniated disc it Really effects me and My ability to think. Andre: Wishing you a speedy recovery Ron. Take care. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
oh hell yes, Ron. had hemorrhoids flare up bad for two days ago and it was like I was another person A crying wanker unable to function and moody as hell. The flesh is a bitch at times, indeed. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Thanks John, Broken ribs make life Difficult, coupled with The herniated disc it Really effects me and My ability to think. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 2:05 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Ron, sorry to hear you're sore On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Dave, Exactly what I was aiming for, I am Sincerely glad that you returned to The MD. Yourself and Arlo, Andre Too, have communicated the ideas I also hold but unfortunately I am Unable to express them with the level Of proficiency that you gentlemen have displayed at the moment. Having sustained a few painful Injuries it has really limited my ability To contribute the way I would like. Thank you Ron Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:08 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative persons. Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. ...The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last. In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. At first the classes were excited by this exercise, but as time went on they became bored. What he meant by Quality was obvious. They obviously knew what it was too, and so they lost interest in listening. Their question now was 'All right, we know what Quality is. How do we get it?'Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for producing what really counted and stood independently of the techniques... Quality. What had started out as a heresy from traditional rhetoric turned into a beautiful introduction to it.He singled out aspects of Quality such as unity, vividness, authority, economy, sensitivity, clarity, emphasis, flow, suspense, [brilliance, precision, proportion, depth and so on]; kept each of these as poorly defined as Quality itself, but demonstrated them by the same class reading techniques. He showed how the asp ec t of Quality called unity, the hanging-togetherness of a story, could be improved with a technique called an outline. The authority of an argument could be jacked up with a technique called footnotes, which gives authoritative reference. Outlines and footnotes are standard things taught in all freshman composition classes, but now as devices for improving Quality they had a purpose.Now that was over with. By reversing a basic rule that all things which are to be taught must first be defined, he had found a way out of all this. He was pointing to no principle, no rule of good writing, no theory but he was pointing to something, nevertheless, that was very real, whose reality they couldn't deny. The vacuum that had been created by the withholding of grades (another experiment he created) was suddenly filled with the positive goal of Quality, and the whole thing fit together. Students, astonished, came by his office and said, I used to just hate English. Now I spend more time on it than anything else. Not just one or two. Many. The whole Quality concept was beautiful. It worked. It was that mysterious, individual, internal goal of each creative person, on the blackboard at last.In other words, rules are tools, they're not supposed to constrain you. And they don't really make any sense until you have something to say first. When you have a purpose, when you have your own internal goal then the rules become a helpful guide, a helpful aid, then they make sense. The students discovered this on their own. Well, not completely on their own. But he began to wonder why it worked. And he soon realised that this was no small gimmick. The students biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and -whip grading, a mule mentality which said, If you don't whip me, I won't work. He didn't get whipped. He didn't work. And the cart of
Re: [MD] 42
Hi David, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:39 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: John said to Arlo Dan: The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them. ...It's not some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot. dmb says: Yes, it's very important to push back against all those MOQers who keep insisting that the ideal instructor is some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot.. Obviously, these monsters have to be stopped. Please, name some names and show us their arguments - before it's too late. Not at all. Nobody around here, that's for sure. I was speaking of my own experiences. I had two teachers like that - one in 5th grade and one at jr college and both made a difference in my life beyond compare. I was talking about them, not you. Be well. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Arlo, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR ajb...@psu.eduwrote: [John] The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them. [Arlo] Okay, this is a fairly part of educational reform literature. Are there any criteria, as you see it, that distinguishes an instructor from the students? Or could we, in effect, randomly select a student from a class and designate that student as 'the instructor'? Was there any other value-add that Pirsig brought to the classroom other than as a 'motivator' and 'co-learner'? Did the students benefit from his presence? Would they have benefited equally, or better, without his being there? J: Well as I mentioned to dmb, I wasn't speaking from literature, I was speaking from personal experience but to answer your question, of course the teacher is the leader of this little community and everybody looks up to him - that is, gives the teacher the energy. It's the way this teacher handles that gift, that often makes a real difference in the teaching process. Does the teacher want the affirmation of the class for his own purposes? Or is she willing to share that spotlight in a mutual trust and endeavor with others? I think that's the crux of matter. At least as I'm best able to express at the moment. A: For what its worth, most graduate level courses are set up around the model of the professor as a co-investigator. J: Yeah, upon reflection today I had the thought that a lot of primary education is set up to separate the wheat and the tares. And those who aren't satisfied with the rote education of the younger years are primed for the graduate level later on. So good point there. [Arlo] Your two comments here, by the way, are described by educational theorists as the guide on the side (above) and the sage on the stage (speaking down to you like you're an idiot). Although even the most ardent lecturists would likely (publicly) renounce those who treat their students like idiots, I think from experience we can safely say that the more sage-like any speaker feels, the more inclined they are to speak as if his audience is 'idiots'. J: heh. too true. I've gotten along with most of my teachers throughout my career and I can tell one thing Arlo, I'd enjoy your classes for sure. [John] It's somebody who is so interested in his subject that his interest is catching. [Arlo] Sadly, I always wonder why ALL teachers aren't like this. Skill levels, knowledge of pedagogy, classroom strategies, etc. aside, you think that passionate interest in the subject at hand would be an easy norm among teachers. But, in fairness, all too often teachers are 'assigned' courses (typically undergraduate at the college level, which creates even larger problems) they lack both interest and expertise in teaching. This is a part of the current model (related to economic decisions, mostly) that I think must be addressed. J: I agree. Most teachers got into the profession BECAUSE they were passionate about a subject. It's the system that wears them down. If we could come up with a better system, i think it'd free both teachers and students. Thanks as always Arlo, John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
wtf? I just put all linkedin messages in my spam box and I guess this is my punishment from that mafia-run organization. yoikes. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:32 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: LinkedIn I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - John John Carl General Contractor at RidgeTelnet Yuba City, California Area Confirm that you know John Carl: https://www.linkedin.com/e/632r6p-hqfk5f4a-3s/isd/13677203438/vB54Acce/?hs=falsetok=3HJ0Wtw_8krm41 -- You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Click to unsubscribe: http://www.linkedin.com/e/632r6p-hqfk5f4a-3s/gEwoQ51yH5Ho1dLgfEohfPpJF1yo1dLfN6hM/goo/moq_discuss%40moqtalk%2Eorg/20061/I6269307946_1/?hs=falsetok=3OSDdy2_Ekrm41 (c) 2012 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Arlo, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:47 AM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR ajb...@psu.edu wrote: [Dan] Interesting... from what I understand, what Pirsig did was to actively engage the students in evaluating their own work. [Arlo] Before we move any further on this path, Dan, let me ask a question. Given the above, do you think Pirsig's expertise (in content? in pedagogy?) was in any way valuable to the student? Dan: Yes, of course. [Arlo] Overall, do you think there is a role for an expert/mentor/instructor at all? Dan: Yes. [Arlo] In the above, it suggests (to me) that motivating/encouraging is the optimal role, so an ideal instructor would be someone who simply says keep trying and nothing more. Moreover, as I read your points, it seems to suggest that simply providing libraries or information repositories is a better model than having an expert presence at all. Dan: At the risk of sounding ignorant, that is where I obtained my education so perhaps I am prejudiced in that direction. I never meant to denigrate academics, however. [Arlo] So, let me ask, given your criticisms, what would something better look like? Dan: I didn't realize I was criticizing anything. I'll be more careful in the future. What I meant to do was evaluate the route Phaedrus took as described in ZMM. I thought I was asking a few pertinent questions regarding rote teaching vs the methods he used in his classrooms. Thank you, Dan http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 42
Andre, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Arlo to Dan: Before we move any further on this path, Dan, let me ask a question. Given the above, do you think Pirsig's expertise (in content? in pedagogy?) was in any way valuable to the student? Overall, do you think there is a role for an expert/mentor/instructor at all? In the above, it suggests (to me) that motivating/encouraging is the optimal role, so an ideal instructor would be someone who simply says keep trying and nothing more. Moreover, as I read your points, it seems to suggest that simply providing libraries or information repositories is a better model than having an expert presence at all. So, let me ask, given your criticisms, what would something better look like? Andre: Good exchange of ideas Dan an Arlo and forgive me for butting in but (and I may have the timelines not quite correct here) but wasn't Phaedrus just as much a student of Qualiy as his students were? That is Phaedrus was struggling with this whole question of what Quality is and he involved the students in the exploration thereof. He was looking for ideas well. In this sense I think that Phaedrus' expertise in pedagogy was very valuable (as a guide) as he was just as interested in the answer as each individual student was (and perhaps even more so). Perhaps I see this in the wrong way? Hi Andre, I see it the same way and that was pretty much the gist of my remarks and the thrust of my questions. It appeared to me that Phaedrus was learning right along with his class but that did not obviate him from being the instructor. Quite the contrary... he seemed to motivate his students in ways they'd never before experienced. Thank you, Dan http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
