RE: MD mescaline
Gerhard, Clarke and all, Gerhard, I quite agree with you that music is definitely a static pattern of quality, no no danger there. I wonder though if psychedelic music would have been invented without the use of pschyedelic substances? Perhaps but perhaps not. I think this underscores my point that drugs can produce something other than degeneration. Clarke, While 'organized' crime existed in some forms prior to prohibition, prohibition opened up a huge resevoir of profit to criminal organization and certainly spawned the 'modern' organized crime syndicate. Clarke wrote: What if your taste for Snickers bars caused you to break into peoples' houses and rob them or kill them, as those with a craving for crack cocaine tend to do? But would you prosecute me for my love of sugar or because I murdered people? I don't see a problem prosecuting people for murder butif people choose to do something to their bodies that I didapprove of I see no reason to incarcerate them. I don't want a tatoo but I don't think that people that do are criminals. Is there any doubt that if these substances were legalized that junkies would no longer need to steal to support their habits? I think not.Millions, and I do mean millions, of people get up go to work and then come home and get stoned. Prominent businessmen were junkies in New York up to the passage of the Harrison Naroctic act, after that they were criminals. Just for the record how many drug users have you met weren't in prison? Clarke wrote: Speaking from experience, I worked in our local prison system for a couple of years and never encountered an individual convicted solely of drug abuse. When I think of the US prison system I feel revulsion and nausea. Yeah the land of free, right. You hear a lot of talk about freedom but what people usually mean is freedom to bejust like they are. No doubt! The state makes a substance illegal and the prices sky-rocket to levels where the poor junkie has got to steal 'cause they're never going to make enough at a straight job to continue their habit. If your not robbin' or rapin' or wreckin' what you do in your own home behind closed doors (possibly with other consenting adults) is not of the state's damn business. Clarke wrote: Absolutely. We may not share the same musical taste, but I love Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison!!! Perhaps your not such a bad person after all. Morrison was a big role model for me when I was younger.Jim and Jimi created music (for a while at least) that the world would be poorer without. Given Achilles choice, what would you choose? These substances can be used to good effect without destroying your life. "out here on the perimiter there are no stars, out here we is stoned, immaculate." - morrison AreteLaugh/Glen
Re: MD mescaline
Dear Glen (AreteLaugh), I'm afraid I don't really appreciate being questioned without getting any information about your opinions or (preferably) experiences (like in your 23/6 09:35 -0700 post), especially as you questions taste like criticism of my writings. Did you feel attacked by my writings? I didn't mean to. I replied to David's invitation to try mescaline, explaining why I don't intend to and granting anyone the right to do, but I may have used formulations with moralising overtones for some of you. Excuse me if that's the case. Possibly having been at fault myself, I will put up with your criticism and uncomfortable style and answer your questions as good as I can. Don't you think that those of us from a Western culture should be free to modify that culture to suit our needs? Interpreting Western culture as (Pirsig's) social statical patterns of value: Not if your needs are biological, only to the extent that they are intellectual. I like Marco's suggestion (20/6 22:48 +0200) to take intellectual in a broad sense though, including rational, emotional and spiritual forms. So please explain yourself if you think, feel or are inspired to state that Western culture is or can be modified to the better by drugs. Would you call the current US government's 'War on Drugs' not relevant to the world at large? What makes you think so? I don't think my stating the irrelevance of drug induced DQ-experience to the world at large implies that. (By the way: I don't like any war. See [EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg05021.html, my post of 12/6 23:17 +0200) Would you say that Psychedelic music was not a static pattern of value? I know very little about Psychedelic music. You mean that someone must take drugs to produce it, which makes experiencing DQ by drug users relevant for the world at large as it would otherwise miss something valuable like Psychedelic music? Music consists (I think) of intellectual patterns of value (in the broad sense) that can be of value to the world at large by offering freedom to social patterns of value. I don't know to what extent Psychedelic music does and can be considered valuable. Do you? Do you think it reasonable to compare two experiences, one of which you ... admit to never having experienced? Yes, I do. The intellectual level consists of symbolic representations of (inorganic, biological, social and less abstract intellectual) reality. Its rationale is to enable discussing phenomena you haven't directly experienced. I admit it is risky. Symbolic representations can be false. Comparing different experiences (at different times in different circumstances), even if you have experienced them your very self, may be even riskier. The difference in value experienced may be due to the difference in circumstances more than to the experience itself. E.g. when I, being part of a subculture (socially) valuing religious experience much higher than drug-induced experience, would take drugs, I would almost certainly value the latter experience much lower than someone being part of a subculture in which using drugs is considered cool. I admit to having a prejudice against subcultures in which using drugs is normal. I don't see them changing society as a whole for the better. Please cure me of that prejudice by telling me about your experiences. With friendly greetings, Wim Nusselder
Re: MD mescaline
Andrea, It's good to have another female voice on this list; i guess most women arent really into philosophy (dont tell the Oxygen network i said that). I didnt really think your post was confusing. i think i need to try drugs before i can engage in too much intellectual discussion about them tho. That's the same thing Pirsig was laying down when he said that to truly understand cultures, you must take a subjective approach, ie taking mescaline to truly know Native American spiritual journeys. In an earlier post i said that drugs are DQ without a static latch; just an experience that one goes thru and then wakes up and realizes that they are back where they started. When you say that drugs have helped you in working ideas, do you mean creative endeavors such as music or poetry? That's where drugs seem to help many people, altho im a damn good musician without them, (and very humble about it too). rasheed MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
Re: MD mescaline
I agree with Rasheed. The War on Drugs is immoral. Partly for the reasons Rasheed mentioned, and I think also because it's targeting the wrong people and groups of people. The US government believes that the war on drugs can be won if they rid the US of drug barons getting drugs into the states and stop people from selling drugs, etc. They do this mainly by just throwing them in jail. But there aren't enough jails to hold all these people, and even if there were, as soon as you threw all the dealers and traffickers in jail, more would come and take their place, because as long as drug trade is illegal, it's an extremely lucrative business. When something is in such high demand with so little supply, dealers can charge as much as they want to. The solution would obviously be to target the users, and I don't mean target them by throwing them in jail. What users would need in any case like this one (and there are many cases in many different contexts) is to have morals instilled that this is wrong and unhealthly and dangerous, etc. etc. etc. BUT! I don't think that drugs are wrong. I think drugs should be legalized, or more to my personal opinion, un-illegalized. I'm not saying the government should condone the use of drugs, that's not their place. But it is also not their place to say that I can't smoke some dope whenever I feel like it. Now if I shoot up some heroine and then go down and shoot someone because I was tripping out or something, sure, the government should intervene. But only because I endangered someone else's wellbeing and infringed upon their rights. Not because I was on heroine when I did it. I think drugs are great, personally. I think it's bad when people get addicted to them, but hey, what is there in the world that you can't get addicted to? In most SOM viewpoints, only biological things cause addictions. But as per MOQ, any level could cause any addiction. From being addicted to the internet (social), to being addicted to drugs (biological) to any of the other levels (I can't think of an intellectual addiction offhand. Perhaps our unhealthy addiction to the MOQ discussion ;) ). So, in conclusion, do drugs. If you want to that is. But at least try it once. Sure, if you try some hard cocaine your first time, you might get addicted or OD, so don't do those things. It's pretty common sense kind of stuff... It's just that media and government have tried to really make you believe that you really don't want to do drugs, even some that aren't so bad (and there are some that aren't so bad!). Brian It seems that drug use IS becoming an inextricable part of Western culture . The war on drugs to me is immoral. First of all, it costs ludicrous amounts of money. It also puts offenders in jail, possibly separating them a family with no other means of support. And in Amsterdam, where drugs are legal, less teens do drugs. I personally have no problems with drugs, if they are used intelligently (some of you might argue that there's no way to do that), which basically means that they dont harm others or themselves for that matter. Maybe the war on drugs is a social pattern dominating an intellectual one. but im still thinking about how moral of an intellectual pattern drug use is. rasheed MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
RE: MD mescaline
Wim Nuesselder all, I can be a little scathing when I think something is obviousand people are being unreasonable. It is not my intention to insult anyone but to make them think. I freely admit that my style is very adverserial but please don't take it personally. I only wish to root out error (IMHO). By asking questions I am seeking to elicityou to support for your statements. Perhaps by answering questions you will provide a argument in support that had not occured to me or you will find your own arguments difficult to support and deny them. I think that the Principle of Falsification is very important and have found myself caught in it more than once. Let me provide some answers and information to these questions. "Don't you think that those of us from a Western culture should be free to modify that culture to suit our needs?" My point here is that (hopefully) weshould have the foresight to keep our social patterns of quality dynamic. We should be free to adopt patterns of value thatour intellectual patterns find valueable originating in other cultures or create ourselves. The "pattern of use" of psychoactive substances is the generally the determinate factor in deciding how harmful a substance is going to be to an individual.Most people are familiar with alcohol, a physically addicting substance,but which used in moderation has few harmful side effects.It seems ludicrous to me to have alcohol unprohibited, while marijuanna is classified along with PCP. Drug prohibition laws were originally passed in the US with the sole purpose of suppressing immigrant populations of Chinesse and Hispanics (Harrison Nacotic Act). "Would you call the current US government's 'War on Drugs' not relevant to the world at large?" I do not approve of unself regulated consumption of psychoactives substances but that the prohibition of these substances leads to social patterns that are worse than the problems they puport to solve. Alcohol prohibition spawned organized crime in the US, no one disputes this. The current demand for prohibited substances ensure that a supply will emerge and has spawned organization even more ruthless than the gangsters of the twenties. Putting peaceful non-violent individuals in prison with murders and rapist is a morally absurd. Furthermore the application of these laws falls dispoportionately on the poor. Additionally I think that I (my intellectual pattern) owns my body (biological pattern) and that the state (social pattern) should not interfere if I decide to modify it or experiment with it's function.Should the social pattern interfere if my intellectual patternvalues eatting excess sugary foods or not exercising regularly? I think not. This premiss opens the door for completedomination of the intellect by social which according to the MoQ is immoral. (Does anyone really believe our civilyzation would have been well served by incarcerating Robert Pirsig for his attendance at the Native American Church? I believe this is a felony in the US) "Do you think it reasonable to compare two experiences, one of which you ... admit to never having experienced?" Trying to describe a psycheldic experience, particullarly LSD or mescaline,to someone who has never directly experienced it is like trying to describe Dynamic quality (Or sight to the blind). You just can't do it and any effort is at best avery poor analogy.I'm not adovcating everyone dropping acid, but I do find it odd that people insist on passing judgement on the experience who have never experienced it. "Would you say that Psychedelic music was not a static pattern of value?" The only point here was that the experience of drug use can produce intellectual patterns of elegance and beauty. Sincerely, AreteLaugh or Glen
Re: MD mescaline
Hi, Arete (Glen) asked: Would you say that Psychedelic music was not a static pattern of value? Wim replied: I know very little about Psychedelic music. You mean that someone must take drugs to produce it, which makes experiencing DQ by drug users relevant for the world at large as it would otherwise miss something valuable like Psychedelic music? Music consists (I think) of intellectual patterns of value (in the broad sense) that can be of value to the world at large by offering freedom to social patterns of value. I don't know to what extent Psychedelic music does and can be considered valuable. Do you? Gerhard would like to add: Being a musician for many years I would like to state that IMO music is indead an intellectual pattern of value (and if you all dissagree, I'm out of here :-). Psychedellic music was to me, when I for the first time was listening to it, a very dynamic quality experience. I was trained to expect certain things from music, and suddenly someone was more or less joking around with the static patterns I had. After a while psychedellic music also become predictable, and in my understanding static. I can not have a dynamic experience listening to Gong's Flying teapot anymore, but it still brings me good memories. Any new music is giving me dynamic quality experiences, and if the music is breaking new barriers, the experience is greater. So I would say that psychedelic music has value. I do not think that you need to use drugs in order to make or listen to psychedellic music. I've never used drugs, but have both been enjoing the music and contributed with my own. The difficult question is offcourse if my experiences are biological or intellectual. The expected tonality of melodies are a social pattern, and is different in different cultures. Dynamic changes to these static patterns are induced by the intellectual level, but the experience feel like both biological and intellectual. I think RMP stated something on this, but I cant find it right now. Gerhard
Re: MD mescaline
Rasheed... I'm a girl... are there really so few female voices on this list? I suppose it's to be expected. I realize that my last post could have been confusing. It was mostly about the idea that drugs will affect people differently depending on their reasons for using them. The last thing I think is that drugs neccessarily arrest intellectual growth, they've been useful to me in working ideas through. But I also know that they can stop people from growing, and provide... almost an alternative to intellect _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
RE: MD mescaline
Wim Nusselder and all, Wim Nusselder wrote: Analogous to that, I think that experiencing DQ may be fun for the drug user, but is not relevant for the world at large. It can't latch onto a (new) static pattern ofvalue, because it is forced on the user without any context of social and intellectual patterns that get the credit for the fun and can be induced to migrate (to partlybreak up and change for the better). Use of peyote in the Native American church is a different thing, for it has such a context of social and intellectual patterns. A couple of questions: Don't you think that those of us from a Western culture should be free to modify that culture to suit our needs? Would you call the current US government's "War on Drugs" not relevant to the world at large? Would you say that Psychedelic music was not a static pattern of value? Wim Nusselder: Why use drugs? If what I experience is real and if it is possible to experience it also in more culturally acceptable ways (even if they are more difficult), these otherways are better, because they enable me to convince others (and myself) that my experience is veracious and worthy of application. Do you think it reasonable to compare twoexperiences, one of which you know admit to never having experienced? Smiles, AreteLaugh
Re: MD mescaline
Wim and Arete, It seems that drug use IS becoming an inextricable part of Western culture . The war on drugs to me is immoral. First of all, it costs ludicrous amounts of money. It also puts offenders in jail, possibly separating them a family with no other means of support. And in Amsterdam, where drugs are legal, less teens do drugs. I personally have no problems with drugs, if they are used intelligently (some of you might argue that there's no way to do that), which basically means that they dont harm others or themselves for that matter. Maybe the war on drugs is a social pattern dominating an intellectual one. but im still thinking about how moral of an intellectual pattern drug use is. rasheed MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
Re: MD mescaline
Wim: You are correct. When I responded to Evolve's mescaline query I didn't have a copy of Lila, so I was remembering my particular impression of what I had actually read. It's happened frequently that I will get a distinct impression of something Pirsig said, and then when I try to find the exact passage it seems fuzzier than I recall. As a personal note, I have never done hallucinogens, because if I ever find Nirvana (or whatever) I'd like to be certain that it's not artificially induced, and I don't buy into the premise that drugs are a bridge or gateway to higher consciousness. When I run into old acquaintances who have done their share of mind-altering substances, something always seems to be missing from them, from my perspective. And wherever their mind is now is not something that appeals to me. I must admit to some great coke (cocaine) buzzes in the whirling 80s, but the difficulties the day after, and the realization that I was acting like an idiot, quickly put an end to my escapist activities. Clarke MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
Re: MD mescaline
It seems to me that the morality of drug use can't really be judged as one issue at all. Drugs are used for many reasons, and the specific reason one is using a drug can alter the affects it has on the user. That is, we can't forget that drugs are often used simply for pleasure to escape situations of low biological quailty, or as a tool to remove oneself from reality to escape situations of low social quality. Both of these reasons tend to arrest intellectual growth and replace it with pleasure. Pirsig's use of mescaline suspended static patterns to the extent that he was able to experience Dynamic intellectual quality more purely and easily. I would agree that the war on drugs is immoral. Let me continue this later after I finish working it out and referring back to what my books have to say about this. andrea by the way, I'm new to this mailing list as well as mailing lists in general and i really have no idea what I'm doing. Please forgive if I managed to mess this up. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
Re: MD mescaline
Hi Andrea. Are you a boy or a girl? We have another Andrea here, and it's a man, which confused me because i always thought 'Andrea' was a girl's name. But it's all cleared up now. That said, welcome to this mailing list. Your post was good, the only thing i question is your assertion that drugs 'arrest intellectual growth.' I think of Jimi Hendrix and how his creativity seemingly spurred from drug use (altho that was not the only thing that made him who he was). rasheed MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
Re: MD mescaline
Evolve: I don't have my copy of Lila handy, but I'm pretty sure Pirsig indicated that the peyote was a shortcut to enlightenment, necessary because of the infringement of Western society. Clarke MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
