Re: Overscan trick
Welcome to the club. What did you do ? See my previous "Powered by MSX" message. Unzip the archive. Run the program. And gaze upon perfection. Hey, that is a VERY nice implementation of the overscan-trick! I REALLY LIKE IT! Tell me, what way did you use? Grtjs, Manuel PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Welcome to the club. What did you do ? See my previous "Powered by MSX" message. Unzip the archive. Run the program. And gaze upon perfection. Kiss you lot. Mk2 -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Overscan trick
I did it. Kiss you lot. Mk2 -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Overscan trick
Hola Madonna Mark II!
MkII le solto a jam:
M horizontal scan area and about 90% of the vertical scan area at 60Hz
M in 212 line mode. Your monitor settings are just a personal choice
M which I recommend since you also compensate the MSX weird aspect ratio
M ("egg-like circles").
After 14 years believing that, I'm not sure know. I think the 'distorted'
aspect ratio is not inherent to the MSX itself. I've seen my Turbo-R on some
multi-scan monitors and circles look fine! And up and down borders don't
appear on screen!
Salidos, digo ... Saludos.
JAM ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) *MSX Dreams*
Apdo. Correos 3294 18080 Granada
... G6709 War with Salamander.
MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put
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Re: Overscan trick / using sprites
I haven't seen the overscan trick yet, but I know the trick from other computers. As for sprite free trens: the problem is that even with recycling, there is a limit of 8 sprites on a line: There's always a limit. The Amiga has also this 8 per line limit (fewer if you use horizontal overscan). and then you've got a colour problem, because the backround will always be far more colourful than the sprites Only for SCREEN 8 and higher. Btw MSX videogames should be more "balanced": neither an 8-bit smooth 60Hz Pac-Man styled vidgame nor a 256 90s-PC-VGA *JERKY* bitmap party. MSX claims a cocktail of smooth movements + great gfx + cool sound. So that's recycled sprites + overscan + high speed VRAM ops + clever PSG programming + reasonable OPTIONAL high-end hardware support (GFX9000, Moonsound, etc.) (a problem you don't have on a ZX spectrum). ^ Why did you say this? AFAIK the ZX Spectrum has NOT A SINGLE SPRITE!!! When using software sprites (i.e. just copied bitmaps) the colour limitations are gone, as are the restrictions on the number of sprites on a single line. But then appear the smoothness limitations and the jerky feeling. Nothing a plain old 386 PC cannot do. You can't solve this using vertical spilts, and horizontal splits aren't really manegable, because they occur too often. You can't pretend to fit a game not suitable for the MSX hardware into a MSX. MSX games should be created with the target machine -the MSX- in mind. MSX has not been used to its full potential yet. I agree :) but I don't think sprites are the way forward for games. Is there "other way hidden" into our MSXs? We have very limited resources. And we have to ABuse every little power the hardware brings (ie sprites). Kiss you lot. -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
After 14 years believing that, I'm not sure know. I think the 'distorted' aspect ratio is not inherent to the MSX itself. I've seen my Turbo-R on some multi-scan monitors and circles look fine! And up and down borders don't appear on screen! The aspect ratio is fine on NTSC (60Hz) mode, but distored in PAL (50Hz) mode. That's why it is ok on your Turbo-R. In NTSC mode the screen is stretched out somewhat in the vertical direction, as you may know. Grtjs, Manuel PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
After 14 years believing that, I'm not sure know. I think the 'distorted' aspect ratio is not inherent to the MSX itself. I've seen my Turbo-R on some multi-scan monitors and circles look fine! And up and down borders don't appear on screen! The aspect ratio is indeed inherent to the MSX. It's a matter of mathematics. Simply divide horizontal / vertical resolution and compare to standard 1:1 aspect ratios (256 x 192, 640 x 480, 800 x 600...). Depending on the monitor settings circles might look 1:1. The aspect ratio is fine on NTSC (60Hz) mode, but distored in PAL (50Hz) mode. That's why it is ok on your Turbo-R. In NTSC mode the screen is stretched out somewhat in the vertical direction, as you may know. Somewhat, but not enough. The vertical size of a 256 pixel display width to achieve 1:1 aspect ratio is 192 *BUT* the MSX image is so crudely oversized horizontally (it almost has no borders) that standard PAL/NTSC vertical interscan cannot compensate using 192 lines. 224 would be the display height required to match display proportions (212 lines NTSC still leave a noticeable gap). The aspect ratio wouldn't be 1:1 since it's something dependent on the hardware: you neither can shrink the VDP image horizontally nor raise the vertical frequency to expand the image unless you have a monitor with display controllers. Kiss you lot. -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Sprite recycling (was Re: Overscan trick)
Sorry for the question, but what do you exactly mean with "recycling" ?? To use again an already displayed sprite by changing its attribute data at scan level via chained VDP raster interrupts. Kiss you lot. -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Re: Overscan trick
The first line interrupt needs to be at a line before line 192 and it should set the LN bit (screen height = 212 lines). The second line interrupt should be at a line beyond line 212 and clear the LN bit (screen height = 192 lines). Shouldn't the second line interrupt be between 192 and 212? Sound more logical to me: the VDP passes 192 and checks for 212 to end the screen. But before 212 is reached, you change end of screen to 192, which the VDP already passed. As usual, you are right, Maarten. The first line interrupt should be before line 191 (set LN) and the second should be between 191 and 211 (clear LN). It seems my memory failed me - again. Sorry. Another option, which will probably also work, is to put the first line interrupt between line 191 and 211 (clear LN) and the second line interrupt beyond line 211 (set LN). You cannot, however, put an line interrupt beyond line 230 or 240, depending on PAL or NTSC display, but this is something that can be quickly checked. But I wonder if it's just a coincidence that NOP used a repeating pattern as the background of their overscanned title screen. Maybe there is some nasty sideeffect to the overscan trick that you have to compensate for. None that I know of. By using the overscan trick the displayed screen is looped. It is viewing a cilinder from the side; it has no real start nor end. So what ever picture you want to display, the lines =255 should match lines =0 otherwise you will have a non-continuity at the top of your screen. A repeating pattern, for instance, takes care of this. Bye, /\/\ark MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
At 08:12 AM 05/29/99 +0200, you wrote:
I'd prefer the 1st method (if it actually works) since I don't like the
idea of changing the adjust register overriding user's preset and leading
to a non centered screen on some monitors.
Overriding user's presets also happens using the first method. For example,
my monitor is aligned such that no borders at all are visible in 60Hz mode.
That's why I never noticed NOP's overscan trick until someone else told me
it was there.
An MSX display field is not meant (at hardware level) to be aligned such
that no borders at all are visible. It covers 98% of the horizontal scan
area and about 90% of the vertical scan area at 60Hz in 212 line mode. Your
monitor settings are just a personal choice which I recommend since you
also compensate the MSX weird aspect ratio ("egg-like circles").
The 1st method does not interfere with user's presets since you'll actually
be starting your display sooner and ending it later in a compensate way, so
the picture should be centered even if you have no borders.
The MSX 212 vertical height is actually a display MONSTRUOSITY. It should
have been a 256 x 192 screen ***with 1:1 pixel aspect ratio***, or better
320 x 224. The 20 additional lines somewhat compensate for the narrower
viewport, but also they sould have been 224, to round up (in character
terms) and cover the entire display area.
Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware
tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those
sprite-free trends.
Sprite recycling is known to rather a lot of people. The problem with it is
that you can only boost the total number of sprites on a screen, not the
number of sprites on one line.
Neither an Amiga could boost the number of sprites per line, but vertical
recycling is powerful enough to yield impressive games/demos.
Shouldn't the second line interrupt be between 192 and 212?
Sound more logical to me: the VDP passes 192 and checks for 212 to end the
screen. But before 212 is reached, you change end of screen to 192, which
the VDP already passed.
It's indeed more logical. Still have to test it.
But I wonder if it's just a coincidence that NOP used a repeating pattern
as the background of their overscanned title screen. Maybe there is some
nasty sideeffect to the overscan trick that you have to compensate for.
This method should have no side effects. It seems NOP used the 2nd, which
is more simple to guess but less powerful and it's obvious it has that
nasty side effect since you're actually moving down the same image to be
redisplayed.
MSX has not been used to its full potential yet.
So, prove that and impress us with a FANTASTIC demo!
(I love demo's!)
I'll rather impress you with a FANTASTIC GAME.
Kiss you lot.
--
Madonna Mark Two
"Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik"
MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put
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Re: Overscan trick / using sprites
Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. I haven't seen the overscan trick yet, but I know the trick from other computers. As for sprite free trens: the problem is that even with recycling, there is a limit of 8 sprites on a line: and then you've got a colour problem, because the backround will always be far more colourful than the sprites (a problem you don't have on a ZX spectrum). When using software sprites (i.e. just copied bitmaps) the colour limitations are gone, as are the restrictions on the number of sprites on a single line. You can't solve this using vertical spilts, and horizontal splits aren't really manegable, because they occur too often. MSX has not been used to its full potential yet. I agree :) but I don't think sprites are the way forward for games. Cas -- New game: blade kings by Pirillix ;) MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. Sprite recycling is known to rather a lot of people. The problem with it is that you can only boost the total number of sprites on a screen, not the number of sprites on one line. Sorry for the question, but what do you exactly mean with "recycling" ?? Redefining sprite patterns in such a way that sprite n is shown more than one time on the screen. On MSX this is especially easy since you can change the offset to the sprite tables. That way you can redefine all sprites using a single VDP register write. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
At 08:12 AM 05/29/99 +0200, you wrote: I'd prefer the 1st method (if it actually works) since I don't like the idea of changing the adjust register overriding user's preset and leading to a non centered screen on some monitors. Overriding user's presets also happens using the first method. For example, my monitor is aligned such that no borders at all are visible in 60Hz mode. That's why I never noticed NOP's overscan trick until someone else told me it was there. Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. Sprite recycling is known to rather a lot of people. The problem with it is that you can only boost the total number of sprites on a screen, not the number of sprites on one line. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Maarten ter Huurne schrieb: Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. Sprite recycling is known to rather a lot of people. The problem with it is that you can only boost the total number of sprites on a screen, not the number of sprites on one line. Sorry for the question, but what do you exactly mean with "recycling" ?? greetz JJoS -- -- official developer of O.ne S.hot R.ising -- I hate bugs! - I like Starship Troopers... MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Hey, I thought it was done by moving by moving the screen up Hmm, I seem to have typed 'moving' twice... first with the set adjust reg (18?). Then almost at the bottom of the screen the adjust value is changed so that the screen is totally down (in a screensplit, just before the end of the screen). Mmm... perhaps another valid method. Will also try it. But I guess something more than just moving the screen needs to be done since the same bottom slice would be re-displayed. Indeed, maybe you have to copy the lower part everytime or so... Or, like in the NOP demo, don't put usefull things near the border. NOP had a 'background pattern', so the re-displaying could not be noticed. I'd prefer the 1st method (if it actually works) since I don't like the idea of changing the adjust register overriding user's preset and leading to a non centered screen on some monitors. Well, in the vertical direction it isn't such a problem, since I've never seen any screen that needed set adjust in the vertical direction. And the changes are not permanent. Thanks! This is really cool!!! (where is it used, in which demo etc?) In Unknown Reality and that Impact BBS promo. Maybe also in an ANMA demo (The source of power?). Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. I've used systems far more limited than a MSX and I've seen them doing things you wouldn't imagine (triple 50Hz full screen parallax scroll + 8 50Hz bitmap moving objects on a ZX Spectrum: check out COBRA (Ocean) by the geni-genious Joffa Smifff!). MSX has not been used to its full potential yet. So, prove that and impress us with a FANTASTIC demo! (I love demo's!) Grtjs, Manuel PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Hey, I thought it was done by moving by moving the screen up first with the set adjust reg (18?). Then almost at the bottom of the screen the adjust value is changed so that the screen is totally down (in a screensplit, just before the end of the screen). Mmm... perhaps another valid method. Will also try it. But I guess something more than just moving the screen needs to be done since the same bottom slice would be re-displayed. I'd prefer the 1st method (if it actually works) since I don't like the idea of changing the adjust register overriding user's preset and leading to a non centered screen on some monitors. Besides, there is a larger problem with changing the ADJUST-register, and that is that it disturbs VDP-commands. Yesss!!! Thanks! This is really cool!!! (where is it used, in which demo etc?) Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. Overscan was new to me... I've used systems far more limited than a MSX and I've seen them doing things you wouldn't imagine (triple 50Hz full screen parallax scroll + 8 50Hz bitmap moving objects on a ZX Spectrum: check out COBRA (Ocean) by the geni-genious Joffa Smifff!). MSX has not been used to its full potential yet. true. ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Overscan trick
Hi, The overscan trick was, I think, first discovered by NOP and used in "Unknown Reality" at the title screen. Achieving the vertical overscan on the V9938/V9958 is actually quite simple. You only need two line interrupts (using r#19) and flip the LN bit (r#9 b7). The LN bit selects between a screen height of 192 lines and 212 lines. The first line interrupt needs to be at a line before line 192 and it should set the LN bit (screen height = 212 lines). The second line interrupt should be at a line beyond line 212 and clear the LN bit (screen height = 192 lines). This will somehow 'confuse' the VDP and it will keep on displaying skipping the black border in Y-direction alltogether. Bye, /\/\ark MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
Hi, The overscan trick was, I think, first discovered by NOP and used in "Unknown Reality" at the title screen. Achieving the vertical overscan on the V9938/V9958 is actually quite simple. You only need two line interrupts (using r#19) and flip the LN bit (r#9 b7). The LN bit selects between a screen height of 192 lines and 212 lines. The first line interrupt needs to be at a line before line 192 and it should set the LN bit (screen height = 212 lines). The second line interrupt should be at a line beyond line 212 and clear the LN bit (screen height = 192 lines). This will somehow 'confuse' the VDP and it will keep on displaying skipping the black border in Y-direction alltogether. Hey, I thought it was done by moving by moving the screen up first with the set adjust reg (18?). Then almost at the bottom of the screen the adjust value is changed so that the screen is totally down (in a screensplit, just before the end of the screen). Or am I just stupid? ;-) Grtjs, Manuel PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
The overscan trick was, I think, first discovered by NOP and used in "Unknown Reality" at the title screen. Achieving the vertical overscan on the V9938/V9958 is actually quite simple. You only need two line interrupts (using r#19) and flip the LN bit (r#9 b7). The LN bit selects between a screen height of 192 lines and 212 lines. The first line interrupt needs to be at a line before line 192 and it should set the LN bit (screen height = 212 lines). The second line interrupt should be at a line beyond line 212 and clear the LN bit (screen height = 192 lines). This will somehow 'confuse' the VDP and it will keep on displaying skipping the black border in Y-direction alltogether. Yesss!!! Thanks! This is really cool!!! (where is it used, in which demo etc?) ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Overscan trick
The overscan trick was, I think, first discovered by NOP and used in "Unknown Reality" at the title screen. Achieving the vertical overscan on the V9938/V9958 is actually quite simple. You only need two line interrupts (using r#19) and flip the LN bit (r#9 b7). The LN bit selects between a screen height of 192 lines and 212 lines. The first line interrupt needs to be at a line before line 192 and it should set the LN bit (screen height = 212 lines). The second line interrupt should be at a line beyond line 212 and clear the LN bit (screen height = 192 lines). This will somehow 'confuse' the VDP and it will keep on displaying skipping the black border in Y-direction alltogether. Sounds good. Will try this afternoon. Let you know the results. Thanks for the info. Hey, I thought it was done by moving by moving the screen up first with the set adjust reg (18?). Then almost at the bottom of the screen the adjust value is changed so that the screen is totally down (in a screensplit, just before the end of the screen). Mmm... perhaps another valid method. Will also try it. But I guess something more than just moving the screen needs to be done since the same bottom slice would be re-displayed. I'd prefer the 1st method (if it actually works) since I don't like the idea of changing the adjust register overriding user's preset and leading to a non centered screen on some monitors. Yesss!!! Thanks! This is really cool!!! (where is it used, in which demo etc?) Mmm... it seems many MSX users are not much familiar with those hardware tricks like overscan and sprite recycling. That would explain those sprite-free trends. I've used systems far more limited than a MSX and I've seen them doing things you wouldn't imagine (triple 50Hz full screen parallax scroll + 8 50Hz bitmap moving objects on a ZX Spectrum: check out COBRA (Ocean) by the geni-genious Joffa Smifff!). MSX has not been used to its full potential yet. Kiss you lot. -- Madonna Mark Two "Martin Galway means to me what Elvis meant to Sigue Sigue Sputnik" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
