Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-29 Thread Matthew Petach 
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 4:26 PM Niels Bakker  wrote:

> * mpet...@netflight.com (Matthew Petach) [Tue 29 Dec 2020, 01:08 CET]:
> >But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter into
> >petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than the conversion
> >of hydrogen into helium in the sun.
>
> It's not. Where did Mr Metcalf think the energy comes from that is
> necessary for that process? You know, the energy that we can now
> extract by burning it?
>

The same place that provides the energy that gets
water back to the top of the mountains to make
hydroelectric energy "renewable".  The same place
that provides the energy that heats air masses to
different temperatures around the planet, creating
wind currents that move wind turbines to generate
"renewable" electricity.

It's just that water and wind energy cycles work on
shorter time cycles; those cycles are measured in
months and weeks, not in millenia the way the
absorption of solar energy by plants and then
eventual breakdown into petrochemicals underground
takes.

We have short-term renewables, like wind and
hydro; we have longer-term renewables like
oil and coal that take longer than the course
of human history to renew; and then we have
a completely consumable resource called the
sun which powers all the rest, but is itself on a
one-way trip to eventual extinction, albeit on a
much longer time scale.

I'm a huge fan of solar power, of wind power,
and pumped hydro energy storage.  But from
a long enough time horizon, it all depends on
a single, non-renewable energy source--the sun.

We just have the luxury of punting that concern
a few billion years down the road.   ;)

Coming back slightly more on topic--multiple
diverse power sources are always good to have,
but I'm mindful of the fried rodent incident at
Forsythe Hall from the mid-90s.  BARRnet
and SUNet were both impacted when the
datacenter there was taken completely offline
from a power perspective, in spite of having
two different off-campus power providers, plus
a local cogeneration plant and a generator out
in the parking lot.  One rodent in the heart of
the transfer switch made all the different power
feeds completely moot.  From a "single point of
failure" perspective, the transfer switch tends to
be the weakest link in the chain.  Has anyone
developed a distributed transfer switch, split
into different locations in a building, fed at different
entry points, that can withstand one portion of the
transfer system being knocked out?

Thanks!

Matt
(yes, Earth *is* a single point of failure...for now)

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Mark Tinka 



On 12/29/20 02:06, Matthew Petach wrote:



Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


You're right - I misunderstood Keith's comment about that.

I try to keep it real :-).

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Niels Bakker 

* mpet...@netflight.com (Matthew Petach) [Tue 29 Dec 2020, 01:08 CET]:
But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter into 
petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than the conversion 
of hydrogen into helium in the sun.


It's not. Where did Mr Metcalf think the energy comes from that is 
necessary for that process? You know, the energy that we can now 
extract by burning it?



-- Niels.

--
"It's amazing what people will do to get their name on the internet, 
 which is odd, because all you really need is a Blogspot account."

-- roy edroso, alicublog.blogspot.com

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Michael Thomas 


On 12/28/20 4:06 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:


I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


2020: Hawking Radiation, take me away.

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Matthew Petach 
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Mark Tinka  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/27/20 21:56, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>
> > Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.
> Though some people may argue about "renewables" the fact is that it is all
> a matter of time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  Once
> it is all used up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up"
> process is quite independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time
> to depletion may be somewhat long, but it still has a time to depletion.
> Oil and Gas, however, is a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and
> chemical process it is occurring at this very moment.
>
> Well, the sun can't be "used up". You just have to wait 12hrs - 15hrs
> before you can see it again :-).
>


Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)

Matt

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/28/20 16:57, Mel Beckman wrote:

It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. 
As early as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of 
so-called “hot fires” caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. 
So far, nobody has been killed. But it’s only a matter of time before 
someone is, given that there are no thermal protection measures built 
into the cells themselves, only into a functioning product. But the 
industry has dismissed self-extinguishing batteries as too impactful 
on weight/performance ratio.


https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf 



Certainly, poor handling as part of disposal of spent Li-Ion batteries 
is likely not well appreciated. Worse when you are dealing with 
stationery storage like residential, commercial and utility applications.


It's a terrible idea to handle Li-Ion battery disposal without 
expertise, understanding and training. The fact is that for the 
pervasiveness and proliferation of Li-Ion technology,  its safety is not 
a very well understood in many respects, with physical handling being, 
perhaps, the least appreciated.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-28 Thread Mel Beckman 
It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. As early 
as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of so-called “hot fires” 
caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. So far, nobody has been 
killed. But it’s only a matter of time before someone is, given that there are 
no thermal protection measures built into the cells themselves, only into a 
functioning product. But the industry has dismissed self-extinguishing 
batteries as too impactful on weight/performance ratio.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf

 -mel beckman

On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Mark Tinka  wrote:



On 12/28/20 05:29, Brandon Martin wrote:


Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of it. 
There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable battery (much 
less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding is that it's enough to 
have people interested considering that we're already basically consuming the 
world's Lithium supply just about as fast as we can economically mine and 
refine it.  However, that may account for the apparently low recyleable content 
of a given battery. By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are 
common metals, and paper separator which is worthless.

I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and demand 
presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), folks will get 
more serious about recycling the electrolyte.

A lot of the development of Li-Ion batteries has gone into cost reduction. Very 
little of that has been spent on recyclablity. The lack of regulation around 
this hasn't helped either.

However, there are a number of initiatives afoot that may see this improve in 
the next decade. Moreover, the theory is that the nickel, cobalt, manganese and 
lithium available in spent batteries is not unlike highly-enriched ore. If 
these metals can be recycled at scale, it lowers the environmental impact (less 
need to mine natural ores), as well reduce the cost of the new batteries.

It's one area to watch.

For the moment, Li-Ion batteries are not terribly clean from a recyclability 
standpoint. But as renewable storage goes, it's the least of all evils that has 
great potential to be cleaner from ongoing development.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/28/20 05:29, Brandon Martin wrote:



Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of 
it. There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable 
battery (much less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding 
is that it's enough to have people interested considering that we're 
already basically consuming the world's Lithium supply just about as 
fast as we can economically mine and refine it.  However, that may 
account for the apparently low recyleable content of a given battery. 
By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are common metals, 
and paper separator which is worthless.


I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and 
demand presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), 
folks will get more serious about recycling the electrolyte.


A lot of the development of Li-Ion batteries has gone into cost 
reduction. Very little of that has been spent on recyclablity. The lack 
of regulation around this hasn't helped either.


However, there are a number of initiatives afoot that may see this 
improve in the next decade. Moreover, the theory is that the nickel, 
cobalt, manganese and lithium available in spent batteries is not unlike 
highly-enriched ore. If these metals can be recycled at scale, it lowers 
the environmental impact (less need to mine natural ores), as well 
reduce the cost of the new batteries.


It's one area to watch.

For the moment, Li-Ion batteries are not terribly clean from a 
recyclability standpoint. But as renewable storage goes, it's the least 
of all evils that has great potential to be cleaner from ongoing 
development.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Brandon Martin 

On 12/27/20 5:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that as 
of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, that 
sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 2040. 


Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of 
it. There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable 
battery (much less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding 
is that it's enough to have people interested considering that we're 
already basically consuming the world's Lithium supply just about as 
fast as we can economically mine and refine it.  However, that may 
account for the apparently low recyleable content of a given battery. 
By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are common metals, and 
paper separator which is worthless.


I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and 
demand presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), 
folks will get more serious about recycling the electrolyte.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/27/20 21:56, Keith Medcalf wrote:


Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.  Though some people may argue about 
"renewables" the fact is that it is all a matter of time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  
Once it is all used up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up" process is quite 
independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time to depletion may be somewhat long, but it still has a time to 
depletion.  Oil and Gas, however, is a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and chemical process it is 
occurring at this very moment.


Well, the sun can't be "used up". You just have to wait 12hrs - 15hrs 
before you can see it again :-).


Seriously, though, solar != storage. You can have solar (power) without 
storage. It's not very useful when you have a grid outage, or on days 
with low irradiation, but for what it's worth, it will do its thing.


Renewables is not about lasting forever, but about lasting for as long 
as they can with minimal impact to the environment. Economically and/or 
physically.


Having spent some time on this, for me, it's about comfort, and quality 
of life. If you look at renewables as pure cost-benefit analysis (to the 
Economics majors, that's RoI), you'll be sorely disappointed.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/27/20 21:51, Sabri Berisha wrote:


Netflix has a documentary on it, "Fire In Paradise". Gives me the chills
every time I watch it.


I'll have a sniff. Thanks!

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/27/20 19:49, Michael Thomas wrote:

We can't get enough solar panels on the roof to charge a battery big 
enough to handle a multi-day outage, and the battery as quoted is only 
charged from the panels, not from the mains. It's easy enough to get a 
transfer switch though for the battery subpanel to hook the generator 
up to. If I really wanted to get fancy, I could supply the generator 
from our house propane tank, but it's not that hard to just use the 
normal 5 gallon type tanks.


Fair enough.

Naturally, if you're looking at multi-day outages, then you'll likely 
reduce your load quite substantially for the period, allowing you to 
keep the battery running until the following morning when the sun comes up.


But yes, in your situation, a multi-day outage would not be that 
different from an off-grid self-generation scenario; in which case, a 
generator is necessary to recharge batteries, particularly on cloudy days.


Mark.

RE: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Keith Medcalf 


On: Sunday, 27 December, 2020 03:26, Mark Tinka wrote:

>In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.  Though some 
people may argue about "renewables" the fact is that it is all a matter of 
time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  Once it is all used 
up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up" process is quite 
independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time to depletion may be 
somewhat long, but it still has a time to depletion.  Oil and Gas, however, is 
a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and chemical process it is 
occurring at this very moment.

The "greenies" simply have bad colloquial language usage.  This is probably as 
a result of a failure to understand even rudimentary physics and chemistry and 
operating on miniscule time-scales.

On the other hand, the aliens could be quite pissed when they return to 
retrieve their fuel stash and discover that we have used it all.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Sabri Berisha 
- On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Michael Thomas m...@mtcc.com wrote:

Hi,

> Right and here in California, it was precisely those lines that
> incinerated Paradise.

And for those lurkers outside of CA, or even the U.S., the small town
named "Paradise" was completely wiped off the map a few years ago due 
to horrific wildfires. 

The smoke was so bad that here in the Bay Area we were wearing N95 masks
because of it. The masks I bought back then were useful again when the
pandemic started.

Netflix has a documentary on it, "Fire In Paradise". Gives me the chills
every time I watch it.

Thanks,

Sabri

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/27/20 10:26 AM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
All of the 400V and 10 kV is buried. That means no wires along 
streets, anywhere.


The long haul transmission network consists mostly of 150 kV and 400 
kV lines. That has been partly buried, especially near and in cities. 
There was a project to have it all buried but was abandoned halfway 
due to cost.


But then it is all fully redundant, so they will just power it down if 
it needs maintenance. My company is digging for FTTH and in the few 
cases we need to cross one of these bad guys, they will shut it for us 
while we are working. Nobody looses power of course.


The 10 kV network is redundant too. We managed to hit those a few 
times.  That will cause a power interruption for 10 to 20 minutes 
until they reroute the power. I believe mostly for safety, they need 
to be sure that the damaged line will not become energized again.


It's hard to build in redundancy when the entirety of lower Manhattan 
was under water though. Dealing with that must have been a hellacious job.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Baldur Norddahl 
søn. 27. dec. 2020 19.00 skrev Valdis Klētnieks :

> On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:
>
> > Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)
>
> Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?
>
> In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
> in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
> repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...
>
> (Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
> own rather nasty failure modes)
>

All of the 400V and 10 kV is buried. That means no wires along streets,
anywhere.

The long haul transmission network consists mostly of 150 kV and 400 kV
lines. That has been partly buried, especially near and in cities. There
was a project to have it all buried but was abandoned halfway due to cost.

But then it is all fully redundant, so they will just power it down if it
needs maintenance. My company is digging for FTTH and in the few cases we
need to cross one of these bad guys, they will shut it for us while we are
working. Nobody looses power of course.

The 10 kV network is redundant too. We managed to hit those a few times.
That will cause a power interruption for 10 to 20 minutes until they
reroute the power. I believe mostly for safety, they need to be sure that
the damaged line will not become energized again.

Regards

Baldur

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/27/20 10:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:


Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?

In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...

(Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
own rather nasty failure modes)


Right and here in California, it was precisely those lines that 
incinerated Paradise. The problem with PG is that they couldn't be 
bothered to maintain anything since it got in the way of cushy estaff 
salaries and investor dividends. The tower that caused Paradise was a 
century old.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Valdis Klētnieks 
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:

> Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?

In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...

(Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
own rather nasty failure modes)


pgpaNvJePUX6d.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/27/20 9:38 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/27/20 18:14, Michael Thomas wrote:

We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight.


If you can add some solar panels to that, you would be in a better 
position to prolong the battery's utility.


I'd say dump the generator, and invest that money in solar panels, 
rather. Batteries are way more costly than panels, and if you can have 
both, you're going to be better off in the long run.


We can't get enough solar panels on the roof to charge a battery big 
enough to handle a multi-day outage, and the battery as quoted is only 
charged from the panels, not from the mains. It's easy enough to get a 
transfer switch though for the battery subpanel to hook the generator up 
to. If I really wanted to get fancy, I could supply the generator from 
our house propane tank, but it's not that hard to just use the normal 5 
gallon type tanks.


Mike, it's sunday so i guess it's ok to be off topic :)

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/27/20 18:57, Baldur Norddahl wrote:



Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)


I'm certain every country has a combination of both... one of those more 
than the other in some places, but a combo nonetheless.


Ultimately, it's most unlikely that any utility company is going to 
serve the growing needs of the world, as a going concern. If there is a 
chance you can self-produce, to some extent, that'd be worth looking into.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/27/20 18:14, Michael Thomas wrote:

We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight.


If you can add some solar panels to that, you would be in a better 
position to prolong the battery's utility.


I'd say dump the generator, and invest that money in solar panels, 
rather. Batteries are way more costly than panels, and if you can have 
both, you're going to be better off in the long run.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Baldur Norddahl 
søn. 27. dec. 2020 17.14 skrev Michael Thomas :

>
>
> We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would
> probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially
> with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire
> plant in daylight. There has to be a better technical solution for this
> beyond just burying the wires. A properly trained AI could probably
> figure out what's naught and nice.
>

Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/27/20 2:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 23:57, Michael Thomas wrote:



Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around 
here. It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge 
of power issues is the better idea. although with pg it's a tough 
call, my telco not so much.


I considered a generator at some point, for home back up.

In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that 
as of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, 
that sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 
2040.




We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight. There has to be a better technical solution for this 
beyond just burying the wires. A properly trained AI could probably 
figure out what's naught and nice.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 23:57, Michael Thomas wrote:



Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around 
here. It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge 
of power issues is the better idea. although with pg it's a tough 
call, my telco not so much.


I considered a generator at some point, for home back up.

In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that as 
of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, that 
sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 2040.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-27 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 22:58, Michael Thomas wrote:



Here in California the new reality is that multi-day outages are now 
common. The first few planned outages were 3-4 days, so that would be 
on the edge, especially if it's for gabby granny on the phone for 
hours.This all depends on the weather, and for snow related outages 
they can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but 
everybody getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills 
would be something of its own horror show, but it will probably come 
down to that.


I know someone who will sell you a Powerwall :-), not that I'd recommend 
it...


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Jared Geiger 
Are there 1G home routers that can do fq_codel in hardware versus the
general purpose CPU on the device? The only devices that I have that will
do a full 1G with it have active cooling fans.

It seems manufacturers need to meet that goal before we ask for 10G CPEs.

~Jared

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> *nods* That leave delivering a better quality product to the rest of us.
>
> Ya know, peered well with whatever other networks may exist.  :-)
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------------------
> *From: *"Mark Tinka" 
> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Friday, December 25, 2020 11:44:00 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
>
>
>
> On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote:
>
> >
> > I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms
> > race for its own sake.
>
> It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell
> bandwidth.
>
> The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling
> large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less.
>
> It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the
> only goal is to maintain customers on the books.
>
> One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched
> new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many
> ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in
> other ways?
>
> Mark.
>
>

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mike Hammett 
*nods* That leave delivering a better quality product to the rest of us. 


Ya know, peered well with whatever other networks may exist. :-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mark Tinka"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 11:44:00 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 



On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote: 

> 
> I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms 
> race for its own sake. 

It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell 
bandwidth. 

The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling 
large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less. 

It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the 
only goal is to maintain customers on the books. 

One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched 
new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many 
ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in 
other ways? 

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Michael Thomas 


On 12/26/20 3:28 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Use a router with FQ_CODEL and be amazed at how much you can get onto 
a pipe without any perceptible difference in the experience.




I did that, after a meltdown and yes it made a huge difference. I don't 
understand why CPE don't implement it by default.



Mike





-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Michael Thomas" 
*To: *nanog@nanog.org
*Sent: *Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM
*Subject: *Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE


On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote:


It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people
could use 1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting
to distinguish “>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect
many / most customers are looking for the former.


Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the
downstream.



Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know 
this sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household 
possibly need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut 
the cord so all tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 
4k I could probably upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly 
it's just the two of us here, but throw in a couple of kids and I 
still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I 
missing something really stupid?


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mike Hammett 
Use a router with FQ_CODEL and be amazed at how much you can get onto a pipe 
without any perceptible difference in the experience. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mike Hammett 
Some WISPs I know moved customers from 20 megabit/s wireless to 500 megabit 
fiber. Total usage in that subdivision changed about 5%. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mike Hammett 
Ego. 
Ignorance. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/26/20 1:13 PM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:58:42 -0800, Michael Thomas said:

can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody
getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be
something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.

Egads.

Especially if a lot of those generators are just bought at Home Depot and
hooked up to the house wiring without a proper cutover switch for the mains.




Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around here. 
It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge of power 
issues is the better idea. although with pg it's a tough call, my 
telco not so much.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Valdis Klētnieks 
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:58:42 -0800, Michael Thomas said:
> can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody
> getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be
> something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.

Egads.

Especially if a lot of those generators are just bought at Home Depot and
hooked up to the house wiring without a proper cutover switch for the mains.




pgp3KpLpZtF4M.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/26/20 12:44 PM, John Levine wrote:


In the 25 years since I've lived here the power has never been out as
long as a day so I think a four day battery will give me pretty good
reliability. I know my fiber is a straight shot to the CO since I'm
only four blocks away but as far as I can tell, unlike the HFC cable
plant next to it on the poles, their fiber system doesn't use any
powered repeaters.

Here in California the new reality is that multi-day outages are now 
common. The first few planned outages were 3-4 days, so that would be on 
the edge, especially if it's for gabby granny on the phone for 
hours.This all depends on the weather, and for snow related outages they 
can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody 
getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be 
something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread John Levine 
In article <653758700.2275.1608968920711.javamail.zim...@baylink.com>,
Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>- Original Message -
>> From: "John Levine" 
>
>> They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad
>> when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though
>> nothing is using it now.
>
>Sure; ILECs would *love* to deprovision their copper end networks.
>
>But that's not necessarily a great idea, societally; always-on dialtone
>(or, at least, dialtone with a much higher reliability than VoN) can be
>pretty important.  My LECs in Florida seem to manage five 9s pretty handily
>at the station set; betting FiOS isn't managing that. ...

My telco is a family run rural LEC with some quaint ideas. I asked the
installer who replaces the backup battery when it wears out.  "We do,
of course."  He seemed to think it was a silly question, was surprised
when I told him Verizon felt otherwise.

In the 25 years since I've lived here the power has never been out as
long as a day so I think a four day battery will give me pretty good
reliability. I know my fiber is a straight shot to the CO since I'm
only four blocks away but as far as I can tell, unlike the HFC cable
plant next to it on the poles, their fiber system doesn't use any
powered repeaters.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

RE: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Keith Medcalf 
>If the operator wants to keep bufferbloat low you will not be able to
>utilise your 1 Gbps to that speed when downloading from distant servers.
>But with the same bufferbloat measured in milliseconds you will still
>have a 10x bigger buffer and thus 10x bigger bandwidth delay product.
>That translates to 10x the speed.

I should think that the speed were limited to some fraction of the speed of 
light being either the speed of signal propagation in copper or of photon 
travel in glass, and completely unrelated to bufferbloat or anything of that 
ilk.

1 Gps is a measure of volume, not of speed.  The speed is constant.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 13:41, Nuno Vieira wrote:

Once upon a time a wise main said “Who in their right mind would ever 
need more than 640k of ram?”


While everyone will take a chance at using this line at some point in a 
computing career, it's somewhat disingenuous to compare (or equate) the 
640KB of RAM to anything today. There is always bare minimums we must 
hit before any additional infrastructure does not yield any further 
value. In economics, I believe it's called the Law of Diminishing Returns.


640KB may not be sufficient for any personal device today. However, what 
would you do with 256GB of RAM on your computer that you can't do with 
64GB, in a home/domestic setting, as an average user?


Yes, 1Mbps of bandwidth is likely too small for today's Internet, but 
what would you do with 10Gbps that you can't with, say, 750Mbps?


Maybe we shall have VR on our devices which will make Zoom much more 
pleasant to use, but for as long as you don't see any 10Gbps CPE or 
XG-PON roll-outs happening en masse, that should signal something to you.


There was a time when the number of megapixels on a phone or camera was 
the most important thing. That doesn't matter anymore, to the point of 
actually more megapixels returning poorer image quality. Just compare a 
photo taken in WhatsApp vs. a photo taken in Apple's native Camera app, 
same device. The smarts aren't in the hardware anymore.


Similarly, while 10Gbps to the home may have sounded completely 
noteworthy in 2005, surprisingly, perhaps less so in 2020. Likely 
because the way the Internet works, how data is delivered, how it is 
stored, the role of the device, e.t.c., all make the case for either 
more bandwidth (on the provider/backbone side) or less bandwidth (on the 
consumer side).


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 13:41, Nuno Vieira wrote:


Once upon a time a wise main said “Who in their right mind would ever need more 
than 640k of ram?”


While everyone will take a chance at using this line at some point in a 
computing career, it's somewhat disingenuous to compare (or equate) the 
640KB of RAM to anything today. There is always bare minimums we must 
hit before any additional infrastructure does not yield any further 
value. In economics, I believe it's called the Law of Diminishing Returns.


640KB may not be sufficient for any personal device today. However, what 
would you do with 256GB of RAM on your computer that you can't do with 
64GB, in a home/domestic setting, as an average user?


Yes, 1Mbps of bandwidth is likely too small for today's Internet, but 
what would you do with 10Gbps that you can't with, say, 750Mbps?


Maybe we shall have VR on our devices which will make Zoom much more 
pleasant to use, but for as long as you don't see any 10Gbps CPE or 
XG-PON roll-outs happening en masse, that should signal something to you.


There was a time when the number of megapixels on a phone or camera was 
the most important thing. That doesn't matter anymore, to the point of 
actually more megapixels returning poorer image quality. Just compare a 
photo taken in WhatsApp vs. a photo taken in Apple's native Camera app, 
same device. The smarts aren't in the hardware anymore.


Similarly, while 10Gbps to the home may have sounded completely 
noteworthy in 2005, surprisingly, perhaps less so in 2020. Likely 
because the way the Internet works, how data is delivered, how it is 
stored, the roll of the device, e.t.c., all make the case for either 
more bandwidth (on the provider/backbone side) or less bandwidth (on the 
consumer side).


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG 

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020, Chris Adams wrote:

Queueing doesn't get me my next game in time to play it tonight.  I've 
always seen general queueing as a work-around for "not enough bandwidth 
and can't add more"... but when more is available, why not just use 
more?


I de-bloat my 1000/1000 with FQ_CODEL. It's worthwhile because even 
1000/1000 can see RTT spikes of tens of milliseconds otherwise.


Bandwidth doesn't solve queuing and queuing doesn't solve bandwidth. 
They're both needed.


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-26 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 09:44, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:


By which you mean that they can safely afford to bandwidth-surf again because
the average usage is so much lower than the peak?


Unless you are providing some kind of service from your home, yes.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Jay R. Ashworth 
- Original Message -
> From: "John Levine" 

> They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad
> when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though
> nothing is using it now.

Sure; ILECs would *love* to deprovision their copper end networks.

But that's not necessarily a great idea, societally; always-on dialtone
(or, at least, dialtone with a much higher reliability than VoN) can be
pretty important.  My LECs in Florida seem to manage five 9s pretty handily
at the station set; betting FiOS isn't managing that.

They *tried* to get permission to do this in NYC after Sandy, and someone
(NYPUC?) told them to pound sand; if the customer had copper, you *had* to
give it back to them; you could not force them to voice-over-FiOS.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Jay R. Ashworth 
- Original Message -
> From: "Mark Tinka" 

> On 12/25/20 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote:
>> But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the
>> brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?
> 
> Consumer ISP's have realized that they can make money selling Gigabit
> services, because the ones who really know how to harness it are few &
> far between.

By which you mean that they can safely afford to bandwidth-surf again because
the average usage is so much lower than the peak?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/26/20 00:32, John Levine wrote:


I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I
have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and
1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880.

The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
compete in that particular market.


GPON upstream capacity is not symmetrical to the downstream. Above a 
certain threshold, providers will sell less upload than download, 
depending on how many customers are provisioned on a given OLT.


XG-PON is symmetrical, but not as widely deployed.

Providers that deliver services over Active-E do not care.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote:



I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms 
race for its own sake.


It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell 
bandwidth.


The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling 
large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less.


It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the 
only goal is to maintain customers on the books.


One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched 
new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many 
ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in 
other ways?


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/25/20 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote:



But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the 
brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?


Consumer ISP's have realized that they can make money selling Gigabit 
services, because the ones who really know how to harness it are few & 
far between.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/25/20 22:40, Chris Adams wrote:


Bandwidth is like disk space - you think "I'll never use all of this",
and then the availability changes behavior.  Having ability to do more
means your behavior changes to utilize more.  We don't NEED high speed
Internet to download games - we could leave the download running
overnight for example - but being able to download big games in minutes
means we get to try more games, finding new things to like.


I don't disagree with this - having more bandwidth means everyone in the 
house can do what they want without impacting the other. And that 
probably makes sense for 500Mbps - 1Gbps of service to the house, which 
is why there are plenty of CPE and ISP services to solve for that today.


10Gbps, on the other hand, is a real problem to justify... you are more 
likely to hit device limits than fill up 10Gbps for a basic home.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread John Levine 
In article <5f11bc55-e3d1-006d-c4c4-0703ff63c...@mtcc.com> you write:
>> The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
>> underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
>> compete in that particular market.
>
>What's weirder is that it's most likely not going to allow them to 
>retire their copper plant since they are a phone company and i'm fairly 
>certain that regulations won't allow them to say "get a battery for this 
>phone dongle"

I realize the rules in NY may be different, but my telco supplied
fiber modem, which is about the size of a pack of cards, comes with a
much larger 12V UPS with a substantial battery. I looked at the specs
for the modem and the UPS and it appears that the battery is good for
about four days.

They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad
when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though
nothing is using it now.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/25/20 2:32 PM, John Levine wrote:

In article <3b0bc95b-c741-7561-1692-75fac74d5...@mtcc.com> you write:

I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream.
Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing
upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too.

But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're
just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even
competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam.
They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas
and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about
because it's really odd.

I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I
have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and
1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880.

The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
compete in that particular market.


What's weirder is that it's most likely not going to allow them to 
retire their copper plant since they are a phone company and i'm fairly 
certain that regulations won't allow them to say "get a battery for this 
phone dongle". Given PG's antics, this is no small thing. I assume it 
would allow them to retire their cable plant eventually, but then they 
become yet another over the top provider without adding much if any 
value. But they are an odd and very old family run company, so who knows 
what's going on in the C-Suite.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread John Levine 
In article <3b0bc95b-c741-7561-1692-75fac74d5...@mtcc.com> you write:
>I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream. 
>Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing 
>upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too.
>
>But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're 
>just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even 
>competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam. 
>They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas 
>and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about 
>because it's really odd.

I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I
have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and
1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880.

The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
compete in that particular market.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Baldur Norddahl 
fre. 25. dec. 2020 21.49 skrev Michael Thomas :

>
> On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
> >
> > The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while
> > continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to
> > latency).  Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be
> > streaming audio and/or video at the same time.  Do we fill up a gigabit?
> > No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less.
>
> But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute
> force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?
>
> It seems really surprising after almost a decade of discovery of
> bufferbloat that most CPE are still doing tail drops.
>
> Mike
>

For download that queue discipline needs to be implemented at the ISP end.
It is just a week or so since I asked what other operators were doing with
that and I got very few replies. So maybe we can assume the answer is not
much.

I also learned that the big iron providers J and C only implements tail
drop and WRED. That's it. It is not sufficient to provide good service, so
the only option is to throw more bandwidth at the problem.

If the operator wants to keep bufferbloat low you will not be able to
utilise your 1 Gbps to that speed when downloading from distant servers.
But with the same bufferbloat measured in milliseconds you will still have
a 10x bigger buffer and thus 10x bigger bandwidth delay product. That
translates to 10x the speed. That speed might just be 100 Mbps on your 1000
Mbps connection. But it would have been just 10 Mbps on a 100 Mbps...

Regards

Baldur

>

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/25/20 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote:

In article  you write:

I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a
number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk,
Gb's of netio for residential stuff.

My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got
this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the
same as for DSL. I mean, wtf?

How fast is your DSL?  It looks like your provider's DSL tops out at 50/5, which
I suspect is not available everywhere, while fiber starts at 25/25 and goes to 
100/100.

I rather like the 100/100 symmetrical bandwidth on my fiber. I can
assure you that 100/100 feels noticably faster than 25/5 even though
nothing here would use even 25Mb sustained.


They max out at 50, which i might be able to get since I think the 
pedestal is about 1/2 mile away. When I was with Sonic they have that 
Fusion product but I think I could only get 50 because I was about 9000' 
from the CO in SF.


I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream. 
Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing 
upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too.


But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're 
just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even 
competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam. 
They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas 
and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about 
because it's really odd.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread John Levine 
In article  you write:
>I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a 
>number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk, 
>Gb's of netio for residential stuff.
>
>My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got 
>this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the 
>same as for DSL. I mean, wtf?

How fast is your DSL?  It looks like your provider's DSL tops out at 50/5, which
I suspect is not available everywhere, while fiber starts at 25/25 and goes to 
100/100.

I rather like the 100/100 symmetrical bandwidth on my fiber. I can
assure you that 100/100 feels noticably faster than 25/5 even though
nothing here would use even 25Mb sustained.

R's,
John

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/25/20 12:53 PM, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Michael Thomas  said:

On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote:

The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while
continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to
latency).  Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be
streaming audio and/or video at the same time.  Do we fill up a gigabit?
No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less.

But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the
brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?

Queueing doesn't get me my next game in time to play it tonight.  I've
always seen general queueing as a work-around for "not enough bandwidth
and can't add more"... but when more is available, why not just use
more?

I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a 
number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk, 
Gb's of netio for residential stuff.


My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got 
this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the 
same as for DSL. I mean, wtf? Why would I want the probable expense of 
getting it from the curb (assumedly) to my home if it's for the same 
price? Even if it's ftth at their expense, it seems rather pointless.


I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms race 
for its own sake.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, Michael Thomas  said:
> On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
> >The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while
> >continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to
> >latency).  Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be
> >streaming audio and/or video at the same time.  Do we fill up a gigabit?
> >No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less.
> 
> But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the
> brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?

Queueing doesn't get me my next game in time to play it tonight.  I've
always seen general queueing as a work-around for "not enough bandwidth
and can't add more"... but when more is available, why not just use
more?

-- 
Chris Adams

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote:


The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while
continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to
latency).  Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be
streaming audio and/or video at the same time.  Do we fill up a gigabit?
No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less.


But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute 
force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right?


It seems really surprising after almost a decade of discovery of 
bufferbloat that most CPE are still doing tail drops.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, Michael Thomas  said:
> On 12/25/20 11:39 AM, Cory Sell wrote:
> >I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file
> >downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc.
> >
> >I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having
> >that peak speed is really nice when you need it. It also had no
> >traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the
> >lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with regards
> >to the direction that residential services are moving towards.
> 
> Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening?
> A time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers
> would build out infrastructure for such a niche activity.

With an Xbox Game Pass subscription, there are a ton of games available
for play at no additional cost (with some games being added and removed
monthly).  My group of Xbox friends will regularly look at the list and
say "let's try this one" - it might be a few gig or a 60GB or more
download (I've got a few games over 100GB).  We might play it for 10
minutes, decide it isn't to our liking, delete it, and try another game.

I think the highest Xbox download rate I've seen is around 350Mbps (with
a wired gig link to the Xbox) on my gig home service.

The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while
continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to
latency).  Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be
streaming audio and/or video at the same time.  Do we fill up a gigabit?
No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less.

Bandwidth is like disk space - you think "I'll never use all of this",
and then the availability changes behavior.  Having ability to do more
means your behavior changes to utilize more.  We don't NEED high speed
Internet to download games - we could leave the download running
overnight for example - but being able to download big games in minutes
means we get to try more games, finding new things to like.

-- 
Chris Adams

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/25/20 21:45, Michael Thomas wrote:



Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening? A 
time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers would 
build out infrastructure for such a niche activity.


Haha, that's the trick; they don't.

Because the logic is similar to yours - how often will customers be 
pushing that much traffic, and if at all, for how long?


Most providers will sell 1Gbps without doing anything different to the 
infrastructure, because they know most customers probably have no clue 
about the difference between 2.4GHz, 5GHz, 802.11a, b, g, n, ac and ax, 
Cat-5, 5e and 6, range extenders, boosters, the works.


If it were me, I'd do the same, as a 1Gbps consumer provider :-). Heck, 
it's free money.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 




On 12/25/20 21:39, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote:

I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file 
downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc.


Same here, but how often does this happen?

I upload my videos to Youtube once a week, if not less, at the most. The 
kids, more regularly, but the 100Mbps I had before could cope. So what 
the 200Mbps gets me now is half the time, which isn't saying much.



I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that 
peak speed is really nice when you need it.


Nothing wrong with that, but if you had 500Mbps on a given Sunday, would 
you life be half as bad?



It also had no traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint 
about the lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with 
regards to the direction that residential services are moving towards.


Marketing at play :-).

Mark.

RE: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Tony Wicks 
As a power user who now has 4Gb/s FDX at home I can definitively say as an end 
user you really can’t tell much of different from my previous 1G/0.5Gbs GPON in 
normal use. However there are a couple of areas that I have noticed a 
difference –

 

1.  Upstream. On GPON I had 500Mb/s upstream and this is intelligently 
oversubscribed by the OLT. Large uploads like cloud storage would consume the 
entire upstream for the duration. While things still worked fine for the 
duration of the uploads this does have a small affect on other normal 
operations during this time. With the XGSPON upstream is so large that nothing 
can fill it no matter what you do.
2.  1G downstream was certainly enough for everything in the house, but 
with the 4Gbs the bottlenecks are now the hard drives or local LAN connections. 
It is quite possible for those 2-400Gig Steam downloads to max a 1gig link off 
the local caches.

 

So in summary the 1G/0.5G GPON is certainly good enough for any home 
application, but a 2G/2G or higher link means no one user can practically do 
anything that will affect other users in the house, yes not necessary but it 
sure is nice. I really think 2.5GBASET in the house is a sweet spot, it is 
easily/cheaply retrofitted into any workstation with a free USB3 port and run’s 
on any existing cat5.

 

 

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Michael 
Thomas
Sent: Saturday, 26 December 2020 8:28 am
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

 

 

Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid?

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 



On 12/25/20 11:39 AM, Cory Sell wrote:
I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file 
downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc.


I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that 
peak speed is really nice when you need it. It also had no traffic 
limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the lower tier 
services and also a huge complaint I have with regards to the 
direction that residential services are moving towards.



Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening? A 
time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers would 
build out infrastructure for such a niche activity.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Cory Sell via NANOG 
I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file downloads/uploads, 
full backup uploads, etc.

I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that peak speed 
is really nice when you need it. It also had no traffic limit per month which 
is my biggest complaint about the lower tier services and also a huge complaint 
I have with regards to the direction that residential services are moving 
towards.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 1:27 PM, Michael Thomas  wrote:

> On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>> On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote:
>>
>>> It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
>>> service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
>>> “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the 
>>> former.
>>
>> Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream.
>
> Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
> sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly 
> need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all 
> tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably 
> upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us 
> here, but throw in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't 
> sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid?
>
> Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Michael Thomas 


On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote:



It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 
1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish 
“>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are 
looking for the former.


Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the 
downstream.





Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know 
this sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household 
possibly need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the 
cord so all tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I 
could probably upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's 
just the two of us here, but throw in a couple of kids and I still don't 
see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing 
something really stupid?


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Mark Tinka 



On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote:



It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 
1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G 
CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are 
looking for the former.


Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream.

The 100Gbps or 400Gbps backbones we deploy, as operators, are not 
symmetrical with what our customers buy.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Hunter Fuller via NANOG 
On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 12:07 Cory Sell via NANOG  wrote:

> Just because nobody is mentioning it - you can always build a
> pfSense/VyOS/Vyatta box in whatever form factor you’d prefer. Even can run
> within a VM if you really want to.
>

For a CPE, openwrt would also work well. It runs well on a PC-type platform.
-- 

--
Hunter Fuller (they)
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

2020-12-25 Thread Hunter Fuller via NANOG 
On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:46 Bryan Fields  wrote:

> On 12/25/20 4:52 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> > For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under
> > US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik:
> >
> >  https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm
>
> That has 1 10g port.  How can that be a 10g CPE?


It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the
former.
-- 

--
Hunter Fuller (they)
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering