Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Yeah, I've seen that as well, but the ebay listing has different values
listed (see my msg above). Oh well, I guess I'll have to buy them and test
it out.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 11:27 AM gregebert  wrote:

> The datasheet I found online for the IN-4 has these values, so your
> resistor value will need to be increased somewhat. Remember - This is the
> operating voltage, not the ionization voltage (which is always higher).
>
>
> operating voltage Voltage drop V 150
> Cathode current nominal Cathode current nominal  mA 2.5
>
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks for this helpful info! I just need to find out what tube voltage I
should expect for these tubes. Sounds like you think 165, so I'll go with
that. I can adjust later, as you say.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:36 AM gregebert  wrote:

> The exact anode voltage is not critical; it needs to be high enough to
> ensure the tube is reliably ionized over the life of the tube. 200 volts is
> a good value.
>
> What matters the most is the *current*. If the current is too high, the
> tube's life will be reduced. If the current is too low, the brightness
> might be less than desired, and your tube may develop cathode poisoning,
> where portions of some cathodes dont fully illuminate. Generally, cathode
> poisoning is reversible so dont get overly concerned about it at the moment.
>
> The simplest method to limit anode current is to use an anode resistor.
> You can calculate the approximate value of the anode resistor from basic
> circuit theory:
>
> Anode_supply_voltage = (anode_current) * (anode_resistor) - Tube voltage.
>
> If your tube's voltage is 165V, and the anode supply is 200V, and the
> ideal anode current is 2.75mA, you would need about 12.7K for your anode
> resistor. After you setup a tube and your supply, measure the voltage
> across the anode resistor to calculate the current to make sure it's the
> right value.
>
> From the formula, you will notice that variations the tube's voltage drop
> and the supply-voltage affect the current. But at higher supply voltages,
> the variations in these will have smaller impact on tube-current. My first
> nixie clock has a +340V anode supply, so I just use larger resistors and
> waste a bit more energy.
>
> Personally, I dont like anode resistors because the anode current will
> vary as the tube and power supply age, so I use a simple current limiter.
> I've posted about this a few times in the past so you can do a search for
> details. It's a matter of choice, and there are valid arguments a regulator
> is overkill.
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

That would be sweet, but I'm going keep it simple for my 1st go-round.

I want to use these tubes:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IN-4-IN4-4-nixie-digit-tube-display-indicator-vintage-lamp-USSR-NOS-NEW/323117163758

The listing says "lighting voltage" of 170, "operating / discharge 
sustaining voltage" of 160, and "power supply voltage" of 200. Which of 
these do you think is the voltage at the anode? I'm trying to figure out 
what my HV power supply voltage and anode resistor should be. I thought 
these tubes typically dropped 150V?

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:07:20 AM UTC-4, David Pye wrote:
>
> One downside of the in4 is a supposed lack of mercury inside, and so a 
> shorter lifespan than some of the other tubes eg in12.
>
> How about a few bargraph Nixies for a graphic equaliser too? :-)
>
> On Sat, 4 May 2019, 04:03 Justin Scott, > 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're 
>> a good size for the front panel of a stereo.
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
>>> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
>>> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
>>> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
>>> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
>>> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so 
>>>> there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume 
>>>> this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, 
>>>>> pull it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be 
>>>>>> direct-drive, so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch 
>>>>>> the cathode though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being 
>>>>>>> that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with 
>>>>>>> savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
>>>>>>> higher 
>>>>>>> for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is 
>>>>>>> specifically 
>>>>>>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>>>>>>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not 
>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>> use multiplexing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost 
>>>>>>> is a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- 
>>>>>>> irreplaceable 
>>>>>>> nixie tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to 
>>>>>>> switch the anode. However, I have some designs that use anode 
>>>>>>> current-regulators which is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are 
>>>>>>> concerned about it, be sure that your design has programmable 
>>>>>>> blanking-time, refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment 
>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>> get the best results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're a 
good size for the front panel of a stereo.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>
>> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so 
>> there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume 
>> this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, 
>>> pull it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
>>>> so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
>>>> though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being 
>>>>> that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with 
>>>>> savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
>>>>> higher 
>>>>> for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is 
>>>>> specifically 
>>>>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>>>>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>>>>> use multiplexing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is 
>>>>> a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable 
>>>>> nixie 
>>>>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch 
>>>>> the 
>>>>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators 
>>>>> which 
>>>>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are 
>>>>> concerned about it, be sure that your design has programmable 
>>>>> blanking-time, refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to 
>>>>> get the best results.
>>>>>
>>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so there 
would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume this 
would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, pull 
> it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>
>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
>> so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
>> though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>
>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>>> use multiplexing.
>>>
>>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
>>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
>>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
>>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>>
>>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>>> results.
>>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Why don’t I just make 10 a little louder and then make 10 the top number
and make that a little louder?

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:52 AM Paul Andrews  wrote:

> I’m going to say the obvious thing here: Surely it should show the volume
> as 0-11?
>
> On May 3, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Justin Scott  wrote:
>
> Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have
> worked with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would
> love to hear your tips.
>
> What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you
> turn the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in
> question already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be
> dropping and rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
>> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous
>> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things
>> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate
>> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>>
>> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to
>> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want
>> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>>
>> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that
>> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful
>> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it
>> will get you.
>>
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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have worked 
with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would love to 
hear your tips.

What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you 
turn the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in 
question already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be 
dropping and rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:

> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous 
> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things 
> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate 
> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>
> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to 
> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want 
> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>
> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that 
> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful 
> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it 
> will get you.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, so 
I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode though, 
or can I just leave it on continuously?

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
> use multiplexing.
>
> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>
> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
> results.
>

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[neonixie-l] First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

I want to build a nixie clock similar to this one:
https://www.dos4ever.com/TiT/TiT.html

I will supply HV to the anode of each tube (through a current-limiting 
resistor), and switch the cathodes using BJTs. The BJT's bases will be 
connected to a microcontroller's output through resistors.

I have read a few people online saying that in order to prevent ghosting, 
you must "blank" (turn all cathodes off) the tube when you change digits. 
This would be fine, except the same folks say you should never blank the 
tubes by turning all the cathodes off; instead, you have to turn off the 
anode. I don't really want to add a switch for the anode. Is this really 
necessary?

Also, can I just switch my digit transistors on and leave them on, or do I 
need to pulse them?

Thank you!

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