Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[ruth catlow]

Great point and idea Aharon!


Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A

changing day?

Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: )

Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google hangouts or 
somesuch with anyone interested.

:)R

On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote:

Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
experiment.

On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"  wrote:


Hiyas,

Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!

Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
hosted "solutions"..

* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
done nowadays with gnu-social).
Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
made it fun but hard for people to follow content.

* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
registering in both.
The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
published on both and people could use which ever tool.
That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
system would have caught up.

* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
time.
People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
People could send stuff as they fancied.
The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
might want. All that needed was api registration.

(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)

Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..

* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
SafeShare.
A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)

Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
participation.
However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
evolutionary approach?

Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
changing day?

Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.

Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
lose people as a result.

Cheers and a fab weekend!

aharon
xx

PS
Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?




On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:

Rob,
I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.


All:
I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
maximum imapact/reach, etc?²

I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
However,
a few things to consider.

So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
focusing
on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
does.

Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
during
  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
What
she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
birds.

Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
the
Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
ever, probably (urrr�) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed
that
  the art historical traditions are concurrent at 

Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

[Randall Packer]

Annie, I am with you: the email list is a tried and true system of discourse. 
However, after lengthy conversations with Ruth and Marc about the importance of 
reaching out to younger generations, many of whom have basically stopped using 
email and have shifted to other forms of communications, do we need to adapt 
our channels for changing times? I would shudder to think that we might become 
complacent and conservative through convenience. 

That said, I think the NetArtizens experiment we ran last March, using multiple 
channels that were intertwined has the potential to go further. Most of us 
communicate via multiple channels: way we conduct ourselves variously across 
those channels according to length, speed, synchronicity, and media 
possibilities. I have always envisioned some kind of synthesis of 
communications channels that would allow for our various styles, needs, and 
technical capabilities to feed into a virtual community as interconnected nodes 
on a distributed network. 

From:   on behalf of Annie Abrahams
Reply-To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Date:  Friday, October 2, 2015 at 1:28 PM
To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Subject:  Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

:)

I would be willing to go elsewhere, no problem
but,
what exactly is wrong with using a mailinglists, I just don't understand - 
thinking I am too old, a bit out of what is happening "today", just explain me 
what is the problem ?

yes, it needs attention, but that is just what I think a "community" like 
furtherfield would need, if you are not interested in what's happening, if you 
don't have time to read, than you don't belong here, than you follow Marc on 
twitter and facebook and you'll get all you need

a mailing list might be a way to reach out at really concerned people

Randall, I do follow you, I would love to see live streaming at furtherfield 
events, possibilities to connect directly to visitors and the 
exhibiting/eventing artists - it would be great! (but again who will organise 
that?) i would love to be able to ask them concrete questions about the 
relation art and environment where it is showed, their presentation and the 
public's reaction.

xxx
Annie

 


On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Randall Packer  wrote:
Rob, this is an interesting point and one I have been thinking a lot about: why 
are new media discussions using list software that is perhaps 20 years old, 
which don’t allow for the possibilities of embedded media, avatars, search, 
database, etc. (I know there is a Web version of this, but who looks at?) For 
me, there is a  paradox here. Many complain about the glut of email in their 
lives, and yet lists are perhaps the number one producer of email for those who 
subscribe to lists. Is it because email is still our main channel of 
communication, the go to for correspondence, discussion, social media 
notifications, etc? Matt Mullenweg, the founder of Wordpress, never uses email 
for business communication, rather P2, a bulletin board web-based interface 
where he can follow everyone’s conversations in a threaded, searchable 
environment. He claims this to be the future of social networks, and I tend to 
agree, but it takes commitment among the community to learn to use the new 
tools. I am not condemning listserves here, they serve a great purpose and they 
are super-easy to use. However, we all have to admit it is an antiquated system 
and there is no reason really not to overhaul the whole thing and move into the 
21st century.

OK, I expect to be heavily criticized here, but that’s my position. :)



On 10/1/15, 10:41 PM, "Rob Myers"  wrote:

>On 01/10/15 02:21 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
>>
>> But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the
>> conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my
>> favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people
>> who are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic
>> associations for many people because of the demands it places on
>> 'immaterial labourers'.
>
>They're all exploited via apps now aren't they? :-)
>
>At the risk of solutionism, modern discussion systems provide web forum
>-style interfaces to mailing lists (and vice versa).
>
>https://www.discourse.org/
>
>http://groupserver.org/
>
>- Rob.
>
>___
>NetBehaviour mailing list
>NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour



-- 
26 09 14h  vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger, une conférence 
performée
festival Magdalena,  La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier

Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[Patrick Lichty]

Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
experiment.

On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"  wrote:

>Hiyas,
>
>Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!
>
>Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>hosted "solutions"..
>
>* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
>in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
>done nowadays with gnu-social).
>Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
>made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>
>* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
>drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>registering in both.
>The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
>drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
>a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
>system would have caught up.
>
>* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
>tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
>the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>time.
>People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>People could send stuff as they fancied.
>The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>might want. All that needed was api registration.
>
>(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
>that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>
>Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>
>* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>SafeShare.
>A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
>requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
>opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
>assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
>later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>
>Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>participation.
>However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
>try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>evolutionary approach?
>
>Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>changing day?
>
>Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>
>Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
>lose people as a result.
>
>Cheers and a fab weekend!
>
>aharon
>xx
>
>PS
>Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>> Rob,
>> I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
>> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>
>>
>> All:
>> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
>> maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>>
>> I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
>> is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
>> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
>> However,
>> a few things to consider.
>>
>> So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
>> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
>>focusing
>> on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
>> does.
>>
>> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
>>during
>>  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
>> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
>>What
>> she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
>> birds.
>>
>> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
>> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
>>the
>> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
>> ever, probably (urrr�) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed
>>that
>>  the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
>> the membrane might be relatively easy.
>>
>> Back to Rhizome.
>>
>>
>> I think that Rhizome¹s path was a Faustian bargain.  Its decentering

Re: [NetBehaviour] Sign up to Quality Metrics now

[Randall Packer]

This should go on the Furtherfield mission statement! Brilliantly subversive: 
what Craig Saper calls the “intimate bureaucracy.” 




On 10/3/15, 5:41 AM, "ruth catlow"  wrote:

>a Situationist networked performance troupe to "embrace, 
>extend, ironise" these materials in a DIWO style

___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
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Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[Randall Packer]

Aharon, these are great ideas! What I gather in essence is that there are ways 
to devise a system that gives options, multiple channels that are 
interconnected so that everyone can use their medium of choice. That’s what I 
was implying in a previous post but you articulated it more directly and 
clearly in your various communications scenarios. 




On 10/3/15, 6:05 AM, "aharon"  wrote:

>Hiyas,
>
>Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!
>
>Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>hosted "solutions"..
>
>* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
>in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
>done nowadays with gnu-social).
>Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
>made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>
>* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
>drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>registering in both.
>The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
>drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
>a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
>system would have caught up.
>
>* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
>tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
>the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>time.
>People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>People could send stuff as they fancied.
>The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>might want. All that needed was api registration.
>
>(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
>that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>
>Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>
>* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>SafeShare.
>A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
>requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
>opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
>assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
>later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>
>Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>participation.
>However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
>try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>evolutionary approach?
>
>Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>changing day?
>
>Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>
>Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
>lose people as a result.
>
>Cheers and a fab weekend!
>
>aharon
>xx
>
>PS
>Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>> Rob,
>> I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
>> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>
>>
>> All:
>> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
>> maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>>
>> I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
>> is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
>> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
>> However,
>> a few things to consider.
>>
>> So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
>> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not focusing
>> on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
>> does.
>>
>> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei during
>>  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
>> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.  What
>> she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
>> birds.
>>
>> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
>> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that the
>> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less 

Re: [NetBehaviour] NetBehaviour Digest, Vol 2502, Issue 1

[Kenneth Fields]

hi,
I’ve been reading Weiner’s “human use of human beings.”
around pages 120-2, he’s talking about legacy and infrastructure issues
which you could certainly apply to the technology of the listserv itself.
Countries are at a disadvantage when upgrading 
infrastructure/weapons/transportation
as opposed to creating entirely new next generation systems from scratch 
(China).

There will always be a next thing.
In short, don’t change a thing. The listserv does a good job at
what it does. it doesn’t have to do everything. Your thread this month is 
‘what should we do?’ and it is serving its purpose in the form of a 
threaded conversation - though it certainly has strayed from the
“interview with geert” subject heading. Keep threading.

You don’t need to shoulder all responsibility yourself, especially
when new models are moving toward p2p, decentralization/federation,
systems like GnuSocial (based on oStatus), as mentioned by someone below.
@Everyone’s view will be different in a mesh of crisscrossing 
conversation/feeds.
#Keep_meshing.

All you have to do with gnusocial is take off the message limit (making
it more bloggy/macro than 160-character-micro-twittery). We run our own 
gnusocial theme at artsmesh.io . Though I don’t access it 
from a browser,
but use the app Artsmesh [caution: mac os beta] which runs your p2p streaming 
studio and then broadcasts when you want to reach a wider audience (new 
tv/radio).
It has network tools to test the intercontinental delay and bandwidth 
situation; multiple 
clocks, tempos and timezones, Ipv6 enabled, etc.

For the serious, communication obsessed professionals (many of us in new media),
there has to be a system that lives up to a metaphor like presence 
engineering/design.
But for those without the time, email/listservs are still there - and while 
we’re at it,
long live wiki’s and moos too!

Ken


Kenneth Fields, Ph.D.
Professor Computer Music
CEMC - China Electronic Music Center
Central Conservatory of Music
43 BaoJia Street
Beijing 100031 China,

Email: k...@ccom.edu.cn
http://syneme.ccom.edu.cn
Tel:13701188130




> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:03:51 +0100
> From: ruth catlow 
> To: netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> Subject: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re:  An interview with Geert
>   Lovink
> Message-ID: <560e6497.3080...@furtherfield.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Thanks Rob for your solutionist approach.
> 
> I knew about groupserver but not discourse.
> 
> So now in the new spirit of openness...
> 
> Another ongoing and mildly anxt-ridden backroom discussion at 
> Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the 
> opposite) is about an approach to renewing and maintaining our 
> web-infrastructure.
> 
> The website runs of Drupal - excellent FOSS community software - which 
> will soon need to be upgraded.
> Netbehaviour runs off Mailman - we will have to soon move or re-host the 
> Netbehaviour list somewhere/somehow else, because a number of the major 
> mail providers appear to be starting to refuse to service this kind of 
> email discussion list (to which Michael and a number of other patient 
> and diligent subscribers will testify)
> 
> Two issues
> 1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting, 
> designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts 
> while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the 
> archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous support 
> from a number of people to help us understand what the process might be, 
> but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!
> 
> 2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have, 
> while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty, 
> ethnicity) people.
> 
> We can't underestimate the scale of the work involved in bridging new 
> and legacy systems.
> We think we need money to do this because so many people in this network 
> are already so generous with their energy.
> We are leaving no stone unturned to find/earn/generate the money and 
> this also takes time.
> We aren't there yet.
> 
> Respect,
> R
> 

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Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

[Randall Packer]

Alan, it is so interesting to talk about the depth of discussion in the context 
of a text-based environment. Perhaps you are right, but it reminds me of the 
MOO user environments in the early 90s, when people were having this same 
argument about virtual reality: that text-based multi-user environments were 
far more compelling, rich and nuanced than the highly rendered, immersive ones. 
This argument still continues.

On the other hand, you can’t just say absolutely that adding "bells and 
whistles" won’t work, because something new will inevitably come along, it’s 
just a matter of time. I doubt in 25 years that future generations will be 
using the same text-based tools as we are today for online discussion, in fact 
most aren’t even today. 

That said, I am interested in depth too. While I agree that the conversation 
here is a great opportunity to converse with a community distributed across the 
world, I am also very restless, always curious, always trying to discover new 
ways to communicate, create new work, explore the possibilities of a changing 
technological world. That’s really at the heart of my work.  In the 1990s, I 
created performance works with laserdisc players, cd-roms, samplers, 
synthesizers, and other media and technologies I wouldn’t use today. 

So it’s always been an adventure of discovery. I am sure all of us are 
constantly experimenting with new ideas, strategies, and technologies in our 
work.  It is in this spirit of experimentation that I would want to explore how 
virtual communities and discourse can take new form. 



On 10/2/15, 10:58 PM, "Alan Sondheim"  wrote:

>
>
>It is no more antiquated than the wheel. It permits and tenders a place 
>for conversation, discussion. Adding bells and whistles just doesn't work; 
>I haven't seen any discussions anywhere near the depth of empyre or 
>netbehaviour - precisely because there aren't avatars running around. 
>Facebook is precisely scattered.
>
>I could go on and on; I'm interested in depth; even my own fireworks are 
>nothing more than urls here, alive or dead. But the depth of discussion is 
>intense and there are almost no places for that anywhere online at this 
>point.
>
>- Alan
>
>
>On Fri, 2 Oct 2015, Randall Packer wrote:
>
>> Rob, this is an interesting point and one I have been thinking a lot 
>> about: why are new media discussions using list software that is perhaps 
>> 20 years old, which don?t allow for the possibilities of embedded media, 
>> avatars, search, database, etc. (I know there is a Web version of this, 
>> but who looks at?) For me, there is a paradox here. Many complain about 
>> the glut of email in their lives, and yet lists are perhaps the number 
>> one producer of email for those who subscribe to lists. Is it because 
>> email is still our main channel of communication, the go to for 
>> correspondence, discussion, social media notifications, etc? Matt 
>> Mullenweg, the founder of Wordpress, never uses email for business 
>> communication, rather P2, a bulletin board web-based interface where he 
>> can follow everyone?s conversations in a threaded, searchable 
>> environment. He claims this to be the future of social networks, and I 
>> tend to agree, but it takes commitment among the community to learn to 
>> use the new tools. I am not condemning listserves here, they serve a 
>> great purpose and they are super-easy to use. However, we all have to 
>> admit it is an antiquated system and there is no reason really not to 
>> overhaul the whole thing and move into the 21st century.
>>
>> OK, I expect to be heavily criticized here, but that?s my position. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/1/15, 10:41 PM, "Rob Myers" > behalf of r...@robmyers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/10/15 02:21 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
 
 But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the
 conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my
 favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people
 who are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic
 associations for many people because of the demands it places on
 'immaterial labourers'.
>>>
>>> They're all exploited via apps now aren't they? :-)
>>>
>>> At the risk of solutionism, modern discussion systems provide web forum
>>> -style interfaces to mailing lists (and vice versa).
>>>
>>> https://www.discourse.org/
>>>
>>> http://groupserver.org/
>>>
>>> - Rob.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>> ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>==
>email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
>web 

Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[Randall Packer]

Ruth, if you like, we can use my Adobe Connect account if there is interest in 
a live session. 

From:   on behalf of ruth catlow
Reply-To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Date:  Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 6:41 AM
To:  
Subject:  Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re:  An interview with Geert Lovink


 
 
Great point and idea Aharon!

>Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
changing day?

Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: )

Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google hangouts or 
somesuch with anyone interested.

:)R

 On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote:
 
 
 
Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
experiment.

On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"  wrote:

 
 
Hiyas,

Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!

Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
hosted "solutions"..

* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
done nowadays with gnu-social).
Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
made it fun but hard for people to follow content.

* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
registering in both.
The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
published on both and people could use which ever tool.
That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
system would have caught up.

* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
time.
People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
People could send stuff as they fancied.
The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
might want. All that needed was api registration.

(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)

Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..

* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
SafeShare.
A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)

Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
participation.
However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
evolutionary approach?

Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
changing day?

Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.

Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
lose people as a result.

Cheers and a fab weekend!

aharon
xx

PS
Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?




On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
 
 
Rob,
I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.


All:
I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
maximum imapact/reach, etc?²

I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
However,
a few things to consider.

So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
focusing
on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
does.

Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
during
 the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
What
she 

Re: [NetBehaviour] Sign up to Quality Metrics now

[ruth catlow]

Ha hah!

I posted this link to give everyone a little peak through our window at 
the daily stream of 'opportunities' (that feel like veiled threats) that 
daily flood the inbox of the UK publicly funded arts org at the moment.


It's connected to the other parallel discussion going on here about 
communication platforms/protocols etc (thanks peeps - it's wonderful!). 
You can't just keep adding new things (no matter what they offer). They 
change the ecology of people's attention, energy and resources. You have 
to assess their place in the wider system of communications, reflection 
and action.


In my dreams we run parallel staff teams at Furtherfield HQ (FYI 
currently of 4 people spread across 2.1 full time equivalent staff)


Furtherfield 1) decides all things and engages with these 
'opportunities' (for networking, leadership development, audience 
segmentation, measuring, slicing, targeting) at face value, aspiring to 
become an efficiently-run, data-led organisation brand.


Furtherfield 2) a Situationist networked performance troupe to "embrace, 
extend, ironise" these materials in a DIWO style


and we see what happens.
I know which team I'd like to be on; )

What we have sits daily somewhere between the two!
-
Ruth

On 03/10/15 04:28, Rob Myers wrote:

On 02/10/15 07:32 AM, ruth catlow wrote:

Should Furtherfield sign up to this.

Sounds like a trap. But it might be funny. Metrics are the current
managerialist religion - what we cannot measure we do not know. Embrace,
extend and ironise?

- Rob.

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NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
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--
Co-founder Co-director
Furtherfield

www.furtherfield.org

+44 (0) 77370 02879
Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i

Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, & 
debates

around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997

Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, 
Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.

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Re: [NetBehaviour] Sign up to Quality Metrics now

[Annie Abrahams]

invited by the Arts Council - is it a way for "them" to surveil, to know
who merits money next year?

can Furtherfield say "no"?

embrace extend and ironise



On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 5:28 AM, Rob Myers  wrote:

> On 02/10/15 07:32 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
> > Should Furtherfield sign up to this.
>
> Sounds like a trap. But it might be funny. Metrics are the current
> managerialist religion - what we cannot measure we do not know. Embrace,
> extend and ironise?
>
> - Rob.
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>



-- 

*26 09 14h*  *vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger*, une
*conférence performéefestival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
, 285 rue du Mas de
Prunet, Montpellier
aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/


*besides, *online performances *On Object Agency *
with Martina Ruhsam
*archives* (text, script, video, images)
bram.org/besides/
*Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
*Furtherfield*
furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams





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Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[aharon]

Hiyas,

Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!

Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
hosted "solutions"..

* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
done nowadays with gnu-social).
Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
made it fun but hard for people to follow content.

* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
registering in both.
The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
published on both and people could use which ever tool.
That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
system would have caught up.

* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
time.
People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
People could send stuff as they fancied.
The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
might want. All that needed was api registration.

(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)

Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..

* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
SafeShare.
A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)

Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
participation.
However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
evolutionary approach?

Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
changing day?

Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.

Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
lose people as a result.

Cheers and a fab weekend!

aharon
xx

PS
Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?




On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
> Rob,
> I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>
>
> All:
> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
> maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>
> I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
> is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
> However,
> a few things to consider.
>
> So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not focusing
> on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
> does.
>
> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei during
>  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.  What
> she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
> birds.
>
> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that the
> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
> ever, probably (urrrŠ) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed that
>  the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
> the membrane might be relatively easy.
>
> Back to Rhizome.
>
>
> I think that Rhizome¹s path was a Faustian bargain.  Its decentering from
>  the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are
> giving it less resources (and isn¹t it even outside of the NuMu now?),
> and there isn¹t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on.
> First, withFF¹s punk roots, I doubt that 

Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[Rob Myers]

Or GNU social[1]. I can host us a node.

-Rob

[1] - I'm a member of the project and therefore biased. ;-)

On 3 October 2015 03:34:36 GMT-07:00, Patrick Lichty  wrote:
>Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a
>great
>experiment.
>
>On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"  wrote:
>
>>Hiyas,
>>
>>Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick -
>Cheers!
>>
>>Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>>hosted "solutions"..
>>
>>* Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post
>that is
>>in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can
>be
>>done nowadays with gnu-social).
>>Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica
>-
>>made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>>
>>* Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist
>and
>>drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>>registering in both.
>>The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list
>and/or a
>>drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>>published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>>That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people
>seem
>>a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a
>bugless
>>system would have caught up.
>>
>>* A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages
>between
>>tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could
>receive
>>the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>>time.
>>People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>>People could send stuff as they fancied.
>>The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>>might want. All that needed was api registration.
>>
>>(For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a
>string
>>that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>>instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>>
>>Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>>
>>* A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>>SafeShare.
>>A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>>members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased
>out
>>requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback,
>we
>>opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this
>will
>>assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter
>it
>>later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>>
>>Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>>participation.
>>However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening
>to
>>try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>>evolutionary approach?
>>
>>Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>>changing day?
>>
>>Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>>
>>Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>>system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame
>to
>>lose people as a result.
>>
>>Cheers and a fab weekend!
>>
>>aharon
>>xx
>>
>>PS
>>Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>> Rob,
>>> I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea
>seems
>>> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>>
>>>
>>> All:
>>> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>>> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we
>have
>>> maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>>>
>>> I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core
>argument
>>> is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness
>to
>>> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art
>communities.
>>> However,
>>> a few things to consider.
>>>
>>> So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over
>time,
>>> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>>> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
>>>focusing
>>> on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what
>Zach
>>> does.
>>>
>>> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>>> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
>>>during
>>>  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
>>> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>>> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
>>>What
>>> she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally
>different
>>> birds.
>>>
>>> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media²
>(sic)
>>> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA
>that
>>>the
>>> Contemporary and the Tech Media 

Re: [NetBehaviour] NetBehaviour Digest, Vol 2502, Issue 1

[Alan Sondheim]

I agree re below (as far as I understand it, just coming back from NY); 
email btw goes all the way back to the origins of the Net (I have the two 
earliest manuals on how to use the Net here), around 45 years ago. The 
reason is that discussion works, that it opens vistas, that it creates an 
environment for thinking; for me, we might as well say that when we talk 
to each other f2f, we ought to bring along smartphones, whiteboards, etc. 
Empyre is an excellent example of the depths an email list can reach in 
protracted discussion, and one can and does always add urls of course.


Apologies if off-subject here, Alan, catching up still

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015, Kenneth Fields wrote:


hi,
I?ve been reading Weiner?s ?human use of human beings.?
around pages 120-2, he?s talking about legacy and infrastructure issues
which you could certainly apply to the technology of the listserv itself.
Countries are at a disadvantage when upgrading
infrastructure/weapons/transportation
as opposed to creating entirely new next generation systems from scratch
(China).

There will always be a next thing.
In short, don?t change a thing. The listserv does a good job at
what it does. it doesn?t have to do everything. Your thread this month is 
?what should we do?? and it is serving its purpose in the form of a 
threaded conversation - though it certainly has strayed from the
?interview with geert? subject heading. Keep threading.

You don?t need to shoulder all responsibility yourself, especially
when new models are moving toward p2p, decentralization/federation,
systems like GnuSocial (based on oStatus), as mentioned by someone below.
@Everyone?s view will be different in a mesh of crisscrossing
conversation/feeds.
#Keep_meshing.

All you have to do with gnusocial is take off the message limit (making
it more bloggy/macro than 160-character-micro-twittery). We run our own 
gnusocial theme at artsmesh.io. Though I don?t access it from a browser,
but use the app Artsmesh [caution: mac os beta] which runs your p2p
streaming 
studio and then broadcasts when you want to reach a wider audience (new
tv/radio).
It has network tools to test the intercontinental delay and bandwidth
situation; multiple 
clocks, tempos and timezones, Ipv6 enabled, etc.

For the serious, communication obsessed professionals (many of us in new
media),
there has to be a system that lives up to a metaphor like presence
engineering/design.
But for those without the time, email/listservs are still there - and while
we?re at it,
long live wiki?s and moos too!

Ken


Kenneth Fields, Ph.D.
Professor Computer Music
CEMC - China Electronic Music Center
Central Conservatory of Music
43 BaoJia Street
Beijing 100031 China,

Email: k...@ccom.edu.cn
http://syneme.ccom.edu.cn
Tel:    13701188130





  Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:03:51 +0100
  From: ruth catlow 
  To: netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org
  Subject: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re:  An interview with Geert
  Lovink
  Message-ID: <560e6497.3080...@furtherfield.org>
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

  Thanks Rob for your solutionist approach.

  I knew about groupserver but not discourse.

  So now in the new spirit of openness...

  Another ongoing and mildly anxt-ridden backroom discussion at
  Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the
  opposite) is about an approach to renewing and maintaining our
  web-infrastructure.

  The website runs of Drupal - excellent FOSS community software -
  which
  will soon need to be upgraded.
  Netbehaviour runs off Mailman - we will have to soon move or
  re-host the
  Netbehaviour list somewhere/somehow else, because a number of
  the major
  mail providers appear to be starting to refuse to service this
  kind of
  email discussion list (to which Michael and a number of other
  patient
  and diligent subscribers will testify)

  Two issues
  1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting,
  designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their
  efforts
  while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the
  archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous
  support
  from a number of people to help us understand what the process
  might be,
  but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!

  2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all
  have,
  while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background,
  device-loyalty,
  ethnicity) people.

  We can't underestimate the scale of the work involved in
  bridging new
  and legacy systems.
  We think we need money to do this because so many people in this
  network
  are already so generous with their energy.
  We are leaving no stone unturned to find/earn/generate the 

Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[mez breeze]

...fairly sure there ain't no hipsters troll-watching
netwurker.livejournal.com [ie I'm so post-o'skool even retro-fashion slips
right on by. ;)].

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Rob Myers  wrote:

> On 02/10/15 10:01 PM, Rob Myers wrote:
> >
> > 4. Hosted Free Software
> >
> > Use Wordpress for publishing, see if lurk.org will host Netbehaviour on
> > their Groupserver install, and use an existing GNU social install or irc
> > for co-ord/chat.
>
> Oh I forgot:
>
> 5. Cryptoculture
>
> Use ipfs to publish, Retroshare for communication.
>
> Cost: some accessibility.
> Demographic: future.
>
> 6. Darkweb
>
> Use an .onion service for publishing, Bitmessage for communication.
>
> Cost: Law enforcement attention, some accessibility.
> Demographic: 1337.
>
> 7. Retro
>
> Use Livejournal for publication, Usenet for discussion
>
> Cost: irony.
> Demographic: hipster.
>
> - Rob.
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>



-- 
| mezbreezedesign.com
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[Alan Sondheim]

for

http://www.alansondheim.org/nycc20.jpg

for Alex gall for Alison Al for Allison a for Andrew Ph for Anna
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ebe for Becker ja for Belinda B for Bendix d. for beverly d for
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for maralie Ar for BA Auler, for gaz Babeli for Miles Bach for
Damon Bake for hum Barret for bc bc bc < for Beatrice B for
Jonathan B for Bellmont B for jazz Benja for Bennett Be for cb
Bernste for Jed Bickma for Johannes B for Casey Bloc for
Penelope b for Jerry bogg for Boluk Bolu for wafa bourk for
Allen Bram for Jake Brave for Carroll Br for Brian Bria for
Andreas Br for Bonnie "Br for Dave "Brow for Debra "Bro for
Bruce Bruc for Nancy buch for Stephan Bu for Helen Burg for
Byers Byer for Mairead By for Tara Calis for Remo Campo for Eric
Carbo for edwin care for Azure Cart for mick Carte for roxi
carte for Caspar cas for amy cateri for ruth catlo for Carrie
cfr for rc cheatha for Cris cheek for Emily Chen for Abigail Ch
for Chris2 Chr for Hill Chris for Janessa Cl for Mitchell C for
Dennian Cl for curt Cloni for weep Colat for Melanie Co for
press Conn for Tony Conra for Coover Coo for Florian Cr for
Jordan Cra for Chromatic for Jayadev CT for James cunn for
nadine Cut for c Cyb cybe for Foofwa =?U for =?UTF-8 for sd
dalachi for Daly Daly, for maria Damo for Daniels Da for ane
daPain for Lisa Darms for DK David K for Bryan Day, for Sara
dchNY for Deed Deed, for Jackie Dee for Demaray De for Dennis
Den for Diana Dian for Katherine for Tennessee for Kelly Dobs
for Jocelyne D for jeremyelo for Dowling Do for Doyle Doyl for
Geoff Duga for ch'in Dydo for Kris Dykst for EK E.K.Huc for kari
edwar for Erik Ehn, for Elaine Ela for Ellis Elli for Emigh "Emi
for Ursula End for des enfiel for Endberg En for Bjorn =?UT for
Chrisesp E for Helena esp for lis Evans, for Mom Evelyn for Aden
Evens for etc experi for Fanning Fa for Brent Felk for Leah
fenim for fernandes for renate Fer for ink Fink, for suler Finn
for Caitlin Fi for MF Fleming for Shellie Fl for Fogarty Fo for
AOL Forum, for dominic Fo for ricardo "F for Matt Frant for Abby
Freel for Vera Frenk for su Friedri for Suzon Fuks for cf
"Funkho for g g sondhe for radhika Ga for Gale Gale, for DMG
Gallan for Ganick gan for pote Ganic for gg Gatza, for Bo
Gehring for Dorothy Ge for Angela Gen for Olsen Geof for Irwin
"Ger for cath "Gill for Ginger gin for Metropole for Baruch got
for greenwald for gabe Guddi for mg gurstei for gh Habarth for
Hagen Hage for Godel Hamb for Chris Hami for Salt Hamil for
Terence "H for Claire Har for andrea "Ha for Claudia Ha for Kurt
Hents for August hig for Don Hill, for BH Holmes, for : against
for Pieter Hol for Holtje Hol for Lily Hongl for Horvitz Ho for
rh Horvitz for ph Howard, for Howe Howe, for Bill Howe, for hz
hz hz < for Guiseppe 

[NetBehaviour] ESU http://www.alansondheim.org/ESU.jpg

[Alan Sondheim]

ESU http://www.alansondheim.org/ESU.jpg


repetition: the USE of letters, the reversal of letters. then
maybe do something then do the reversal again. make sure you
don't end up anywhere near the same place. then think about
lines in elliptic geometry and where you would put the
separations. and make sure the separations are all within the
same homily.

the repetition is within the same homily. the homily sends
{A}-->0. it is always the same. it is always the same power. the
power of one is the power.

the power of two runs like the arctic fox, the fox in the
arctic. the power of two is the not of the borromeans.

death is a repetition. death is the only repetition. death is
the repetition of zero. it endeth and endeth there. the end
theneth come. the end bring the end of alleth values. we shall
arrive dissolved at the gateth of paradise. we shall be spaceth
we shall be timeth. we shall arriveth. we shall never knoweth.
we shall not knoweth. that is the repetition. that is the
repetition of the repetition. that is the repetition of the
repetition.

1. then that is the repetition. then that is the repetition of
the repetition.

0. then that is the repetition. then that is the repetition of
the repetition.


theneth come. the end bring the end of alleth values. we shall
arrive dissolved at the gateth of paradise. we shall be spaceth
we shall be timeth. we shall arriveth. we shall never knoweth.
we shall not knoweth. that is the repetition. that is the
repetition of the repetition. that is the repetition of the
repetition.

1. then that is the repetition. then that is the repetition of
the repetition.

0. then that is the repetition. then that is the repetition of
the repetition.


0. 1. tthhaatt ttiimmeetthh. aaiivveetthh.
   ..ESU. 
 ... : ..,..
  ..'.. .. ..
 . ... ..
 .. . .., . 
. ..


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[NetBehaviour] Free symposium TRANSFORMING DATA: CREATIVE AND CRITICAL DIRECTIONS IN THE ARTS AND HUMANITIES

[TOM CORBY]

Dear people of interest apologies for cross postinghttps://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/transforming-data-creative-and-critical-directions-in-the-arts-and-humanities-tickets-18860406985 Transforming Data creative and Critical Directions in the Arts and Humanities Free symposium 
24th October 2015, University of Westminster Regent Street This event is free, but please book to secure a placeIn recent years cultural, social and political landscapes have been redrawn as unprecedented amounts of data has entered the public domain. This in turn has posed significant questions cutting across issues of privacy, security, culture and politics, giving birth to new aesthetic, political and social practices. This free one-day symposium brings together an interdisciplinary mix of artists, designers, academics and developers to reflect upon this phenomenon, show work, exchange experiences and signpost important trends. Twitter: #dataTransformations Speakers include  Mark Graham Oxford Internet Institute (OII), University of Oxford.

Mark's research focuses on internet and information geographies, and the overlaps between ICTs and economic development. As an Associate Professor and Senior Research Fellow at the OII, he has published articles in major geography, communications, and urban studies journals, and his work has been covered by the Economist, the BBC, the Washington Post, CNN and the Guardian. Christian Fuchs Communication and Media Research Institute (CAMRI), University of Westminster

Christian is Professor and Director of CAMRI. His research involves social media, internet & society, political economy of media and communication, information society theory, social theory and critical theory. He is the author of numerous publications in these fields, including Digital labour and Karl Marx (Routledge 2014) and Social media: A critical introduction (Sage 2014).

twitter.com/fuchschristian Julie Freeman Artist, Open Data Institute, Queen Mary University of London

Julie’s work spans visual, audio and digital art forms and explores how science and technology changes our relationship to nature, through transforming complex processes and data sets into sound compositions, objects and animations. Based in London, she is a TED Senior Fellow, a co-founder of the Data as Culture art programme at the Open Data Institute (ODI), and a PhD candidate in Media & Arts Technologies at Queen Mary University Hannah Redler Independent Curator

Hannah works with international artists and ambitious organisations on projects that bring together art, science, technology, new media and photography. Current projects include working with the Open Data Institute Data as Culture Programme ODI Curator in Residence and working as consultant art curator for the Institute of Physics. From 2005–14 Hannah was Head of the Science Museum Arts Programme, and also between 2011–14 head of the Science Museum's photography gallery Media Space, which opened in 2012. Joanna Boehnert Designer and design theorist, Centre for Research in Education, Art and Media, University of Westminster (CREAM)

Joanna’s research is concerned with visual mapping of climate communication and issues of the emerging green economy. She is currently finishing a book titled Design/Ecology/Politics: Within and Beyond Error for Bloomsbury Academic and is she is founding director of EcoLabs.Tom Corby and Gavin Baily Artists, Centre for Research in Education, Art and Media, University of Westminster (CREAM)

Tom is a Professor of Visual and Interdisciplinary Art at CREAM, and Gavin is Director of Tracemedia (Tracemedia.co.uk), specialists in visualisation, mapping and digital arts. Together they been exploring alternative and critical uses of data since the mid-1990s, with a predominant focus on intersections of the environment and social behaviour. Their data-driven installations and images have been widely exhibited at numerous galleries and museums including at the Institute of Contemporary Arts, Victoria and Albert Museum, Tate Online and Tokyo Metropolitan Museum, among many others.Doug Specht Doctoral Researcher and Visiting Lecturer at the University of Westminster

Doug explores how digital media, data and GIS are used in legitimising and codifying local knowledge within the context of International Development. He is also the Director of VOZ, a PGIS platform that supports human and environmental rights through community mapping. He has worked extensively across Latin America and is an editor for the Environmental Network for Central America.Anastasia Kavada Symposium chair, is Senior Lecturer in the Westminster Faculty of Media, Arts & Design at the University of Westminster

She is Co-leader of the MA in Media, Campaigning and Social Change and Deputy Director of the Communication and Media Research Institute (CAMRI). Her research focuses on the links between online tools and decentralised organising practices, democratic decision-making, and the development of solidarity among 

Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

[Patrick Lichty]

Rob,
I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.

All:
I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
maximum imapact/reach, etc?²

I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument is
sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to larger
groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.  However,
a few things to consider.

So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not focusing
on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
does.  

Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei during
the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the necessity
for community engagement before our conversation; she just assumed that
people would know who she was and flock to the servers.  What she didn¹t
realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different birds.

Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
the Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
ever, probably (urrrŠ) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed that
the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
the membrane might be relatively easy.

Back to Rhizome.  

I think that Rhizome¹s path was a Faustian bargain.  Its decentering from
the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are
giving it less resources (and isn¹t it even outside of the NuMu now?), and
there isn¹t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on.
First, withFF¹s punk roots, I doubt that many of the pitfalls that beset R
will hit FF.  And there is a valid question - how does FF continue to
evolve without neglecting its core values? Good question.

 And I¹ll be selfish in that although I am not terribly active, the list
is my main umbilical to the community at this time, and I want it to stay
a list.  I¹mnot against outreaches, don¹t think that the list should just
be a haven for hoary New Media artists, but on the other hand, I feel that
the list has a good community that is pretty healthy.  I also think there
are good models like Nettime that are excellent cases to defend the form,
andŠ

For Powers¹ Sake, The Well???

There¹s is a case for the power of Ur-Forums and their continued power.
My buds Lebkowsky and Sterling rock the cybersphere every year from a
anciently formatted mail thread there every year through The State of the
World every year.

I think FF has a precious resource in its list, and I¹m not in favor of
much more than incremental change.  The axiom of that which evolves dies
doesn¹t necessarily fit here, as it¹s a matter of community investiture
rather than logistics.  Looking at the list institutionally rather than
socially is a salient debate to have, and I don¹t want to lose the sense
of community I have here.  This is one of the last informal venues I have
to just shoot the shit, as it were, and I think it¹s one of the few where
you can in this format.

My .02 AED...

On 10/3/15, 9:01 AM, "Rob Myers"  wrote:

>On 02/10/15 04:03 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
>>
>> Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the
>> opposite)
>
>An open-ended and non-enclosed structure with no basketball courts or
>free candy vending machines?
>
>> Two issues
>> 1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting,
>> designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts
>> while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the
>> archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous support
>> from a number of people to help us understand what the process might be,
>> but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!
>> 
>> 2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have,
>> while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty,
>> ethnicity) people.
>
>There are a few approaches, with different affordances and costs
>(economic and political).
>
>1. Yay Walled Gardens!
>
>Use Medium for publishing articles, hosted Discourse for mail/boards,
>and Slack for co-ordination/chat.
>
>Cost: 100USD/month plus your soul.
>Demographic: Current.
>
>2. All Zuck All The Time
>
>Use Facebook Notes for publishing articles, Facebook pages for
>discussion, and Facebook messaging for co-ordination/chat.
>
>Cost: Zero, plus the souls of all humanity.
>Demographic: Previous.
>
>3. Current Free Software
>
>Use Jekyll for publishing (mediated via GitLabs or at a pinch GitHub)
>[TODO: comment system], self-hosted