[nlug] Re: backup power advice
Lots of great respnoses. We're documenting all the things we want to be powered from an alternate source, then finding what else needs to be up to support that. Once we have that information, we're going to consult a professional :-) -jonathan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
When I worked for a bank, their DR site was about 10 miles from the 'home office'. This was to close for me to feel comfortable, but they didn't want the travel expense for tests (1 each 6 mo) to an office they had 200 miles away. Auditors made them do something, so they chose a 3d place that was more subject to weather/natural issues than even the initial 'corporate headquarters' or DR site, or 200 mile away location. I suspect it may have been that an officer had financial interest in leasing a building, but I never told anyone of my suspicions. I hoped they were untrue. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
I was thinking about your generator and auto-failover need. I saw a couple of years back at Sears, and a couple of months ago if I remember right at Rural King, a 'backup generator' sized for a house. Probably enough to keep a small server room (a full rack, and a room type HVAC unit) running. It was only a couple of grand - pretty cheap in the world of backup power equipment. Good UPSes for your systems will cost that much or more. Anyway, I saw they had tripple fuel models. Gas, propane, natural gas. If I had the choice, I would plumb it into natural gas as a primary fuel, and gasoline or propane as secondary. Gasoline probably since it is pretty ubiquitous. You install it on a pad outside, wire it into an automatic crossover switch, and you are pretty well done. The crossover switch, would switch a sub-panel of breakers from commercial to generated power within a minute or so and have the generator start automatically. Again, only put your UPSes and critical loads on this, including your HVAC. If the HVAC needs are big enough, you might want one generator for HVAC and another for everything else, depending on running the numbers of course! Just add to that some good UPSes that are good for 10 minutes or more, and you should be good for cheaper than my initial gut feel was thinking. Not bad for a small shop. Let us know what you decide. ... Jack --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
Home depot has those as well. Look on the website and you can find 25kw generators that runs on natural gas or propane. I think I remember that one being under $8k. Since the original poster mentioned a warehouse, I bet they already have access to propane and possibly a nice big tank already on site for the forklifts. With a contract already in place for propane, a second tank wouldn't be too harsh a requirement to get handled. Natural gas would eliminate your need for the top up though. Of course if you ran a 500 gallon tank down, I am betting you are in a bad enough situation to need to stop the servers for a while anyway. Critch - Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: I was thinking about your generator and auto-failover need. I saw a couple of years back at Sears, and a couple of months ago if I remember right at Rural King, a 'backup generator' sized for a house. Probably enough to keep a small server room (a full rack, and a room type HVAC unit) running. It was only a couple of grand - pretty cheap in the world of backup power equipment. Good UPSes for your systems will cost that much or more. Anyway, I saw they had tripple fuel models. Gas, propane, natural gas. If I had the choice, I would plumb it into natural gas as a primary fuel, and gasoline or propane as secondary. Gasoline probably since it is pretty ubiquitous. You install it on a pad outside, wire it into an automatic crossover switch, and you are pretty well done. The crossover switch, would switch a sub-panel of breakers from commercial to generated power within a minute or so and have the generator start automatically. Again, only put your UPSes and critical loads on this, including your HVAC. If the HVAC needs are big enough, you might want one generator for HVAC and another for everything else, depending on running the numbers of course! Just add to that some good UPSes that are good for 10 minutes or more, and you should be good for cheaper than my initial gut feel was thinking. Not bad for a small shop. Let us know what you decide. ... Jack -- Steven Critchfield cri...@basesys.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
Jack Coats wrote: UPSes and critical loads on this, including your HVAC. If the HVAC needs are big enough, you might want one generator for HVAC and another for everything else, depending on running the numbers of course! Are you sure you want your servers running if the generator for the HVAC doesn't start? (or dies) (and always remember Murphy's Law. I think Curt may remember a certain generator in Wisconsin which was tested under load every Wednesday afternoon. It decided to wait for the Tuesday night ice storm to blow the radiator hose.) -- Doug Smith W9WI Pleasant View, TN EM66 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
Another good pount. Don't just crank and run your genset. Put the full load on it at least once a month.. We have automated tests weekly and manual full load tests monthly. On 5/9/09, David R. Wilson da...@wwns.com wrote: One more thing I thought would be worth mentioning to add to this thread. Choose what you use for fuel carefully. Gasoline can be a bit problematic when it sits in the tank for months to years at a time. Diesel generally is more stable. Propane is a good option (or Natural Gas). Propane and Natural gas are generally a bit lower in output since most of the converted gasoline engines don't develop quite the same amount of torque. It is also a good idea on the generators to have a block heater for cold weather. I don't trust automatic cycling on the generators I deal with. Even if you have a clock to exercise the generator it doesn't tell you if a fan belt is loose or there is another problem. About the only indication you get if it goes down is an overcrank light which is pretty useless after you need the generator running. I make sure they work and cycle them regularly. I also check for funny noises and loose hardware along with doing a regular PM program on them. A few years ago I took a look at one of the generators at a fire hall at one of the larger airports. It was DOA and they assumed it was working fine. If power had gone down and they had a call they would have been another 40 minutes trying to get the door open. It would have been very difficult to explain their way out of that. Be careful and do the homework first. It is well worth spending the time and money to do that right. A slightly undersized generator will cost a good bit to do it over, never mind the red face when it stops due to an overload. Dave David R. Wilson KU4B Engineer for the Cromwell Group Nashville Tennessee WBUZ WPRT WQZQ On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 09:57 -0500, Steven S. Critchfield wrote: Home depot has those as well. Look on the website and you can find 25kw generators that runs on natural gas or propane. I think I remember that one being under $8k. Since the original poster mentioned a warehouse, I bet they already have access to propane and possibly a nice big tank already on site for the forklifts. With a contract already in place for propane, a second tank wouldn't be too harsh a requirement to get handled. Natural gas would eliminate your need for the top up though. Of course if you ran a 500 gallon tank down, I am betting you are in a bad enough situation to need to stop the servers for a while anyway. Critch - Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: I was thinking about your generator and auto-failover need. I saw a couple of years back at Sears, and a couple of months ago if I remember right at Rural King, a 'backup generator' sized for a house. Probably enough to keep a small server room (a full rack, and a room type HVAC unit) running. It was only a couple of grand - pretty cheap in the world of backup power equipment. Good UPSes for your systems will cost that much or more. Anyway, I saw they had tripple fuel models. Gas, propane, natural gas. If I had the choice, I would plumb it into natural gas as a primary fuel, and gasoline or propane as secondary. Gasoline probably since it is pretty ubiquitous. You install it on a pad outside, wire it into an automatic crossover switch, and you are pretty well done. The crossover switch, would switch a sub-panel of breakers from commercial to generated power within a minute or so and have the generator start automatically. Again, only put your UPSes and critical loads on this, including your HVAC. If the HVAC needs are big enough, you might want one generator for HVAC and another for everything else, depending on running the numbers of course! Just add to that some good UPSes that are good for 10 minutes or more, and you should be good for cheaper than my initial gut feel was thinking. Not bad for a small shop. Let us know what you decide. ... Jack --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Howard White hwh...@vcch.com wrote: First question - are all of these systems on existing UPS so that they will stay running in the 1 second to 10 minutes window before the generator cuts on? First guess about the first question - kinda sorta and we have too many things plugged into too few UPS. At this moment, there are 4 APC Back-UPS NS 1250vA battery units, each with 2 - 5 devices plugged in. The largest server and older Dell PowerEdge has it's own battery, and can stay up for about 8 minutes, which just so happens to be about the same about of time it takes to be shutdown. The other servers, and primary switch are connected to the other 3, which times hovering aroudn 12 - 15 minutes. So in theory, we could plug in and crank the generator in that amount of time... First answer - you need to upgrade your server UPS to on-line UPS from line-interrupt UPS. The UPS may be easier to quantify in terms of load factor (see second answer below). Do not forget to include the UPS overhead factor (33% or more) in your total load factor. I know that plugging a computer right into a generator is a bad idea. However will the battery backups we currently have do ok plugged into the generator directly, or does there need to be some kind of conditioning equipment in play? Second answer - you need to create a spread sheet and add up all of the amperage requirements of all the devices you are powering plus a 100% engineering safety factor. All of your equipment should have plates or labels with their amperage ratings. The ESF is there to cover the fact that ignoramouses are going to plug whatever into power back up circuits and you are going to add stuff to back up real soon anyway. I started to do this, and then realized I didn't know where to find that information. Would it most likely be on the power supply of the servers? I'll crack one open and look... Third answer - label all UPS with the dates that batteries are installed. Batteries wear out in 3 to 4 years. Budget their replacement. Already do this with the battery backups we have. So, hopefully that won't be a problem.. Thanks for your reply. -jonathan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
Jonathan Moore wrote: snip The other servers, and primary switch are connected to the other 3, which times hovering aroudn 12 - 15 minutes. So in theory, we could plug in and crank the generator in that amount of time... snip Hmm, crank the generator in 12-15 minutes... does that include travel time from home? You might look at an inline generator that autostarts when the power goes out. You might also consider a natural gas powered generator so you don't have to worry about fuel. Andy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
I have helpped build a couple of data centers and mange them afterward. Howards advice is good about the UPSes. But also monitor the UPSes with software, 3-4 years is right for some batteries, to long for others, and not long enough (there is still good left in them) for a few. ... Dynamic monitoring will tell you when to replace them. You need about 10 minutes of 'uptime' on UPSes if you have automatic generator setup installed. I would look at your ENTIRE load (if you want to keep working, you will need a coffee pot and microwave too, also lights, but throw away the folks heaters they keep blazing under their desk year round. (Go buy some nice 'company blankets' they can wrap their feet in if it is 'to cold'. It is a cheap alternative to power.) There is safety lights that need to be on UPSes too. Do a spreadsheet of ALL your power requirements. Then segregate them into: MUST BE UP MUST BE UP TO DO BUSINESS NICE TO HAVE UNPLUG ME NOW Under desk heaters, lava and mood lamps, and coffee cup warmers go into 'UNPLUG ME NOW'. You shouldn't be doing that as a business anyway. MUST BE UP is your computers, network equipment, small or rack style UPSes. This is the most critical load. MUST BE UP TO DO BUSINESS includes environmentals (HVAC, general lighting (but turn most of it off), fans), desktop computers, laser printers. Desktop computers MAY be on their own UPSes (I suggest it) and monitored locally, or remotely. This category should NOT BE ON UPS, it should be on the generator power. NICE TO HAVE ... This is the fountain and 'glory lights' out front. This is everything that does not keep cash coming in the door within the next pay period. ... Sales droids get the day off. Now that you know how much power you need, before you get online and buy stuff, consider if it would be best to reduce power requiremnts first (go to blade servers sooner rather than later, or upgrade servers so you can consolidate sooner rather than later). What would a central big UPS that can be monitored and maintained rather than little 'rack' UPSes cost? Does it makes sense to consider it. UPSes have a power overhead of their own too. And monitoring software costs too. Don't do without monitoring it! It can also save on UPS maintenance (batery/capacitor/ MOV replacements). Consider having the building wiring 're-engineered'. So the 'nice to have' and 'unplug me now' power users are on their own upses or on commercial power only. Then the 'MUST BE UP TO DO BUSINESS is on generator power and will be back in a few minutes if commercial power fails. The 'MUST BE UPS' must be ONLY plugged into the managed UPSes, and the UPSes MUST be on generator power just like the 'MUST BE UP TO DO BUSINESS' equipment. Now look at what kind of gen sets you need to 'keep it up'. Personally, I would rather have N+1 generators. If you need 2KW, get 3 1KW generators rated for continuous operation, with automatic control (and remote control and monitoring) available. If you need 10KW, think 3 5KW or 6 2KW generators. Enough so if one generator fails, you can keep in business. I would suggest having generators NOT come on until 30 or 45 seconds of commercial power is gone, then turn on and run for 3 to 5 minutes (to make sure they are running and synchronized) before taking on the UPS and 'MUST BE UP TO DO BUSINESS' load. Other things to consider are testing schedules, for UPSes, gensets, maintenance on all of that, fuel in case of extended power outages (24 to 72 hours of fuel on site already plumbed in?). Contract with fuel company to keep it 'topped off' after tests, also fuel testing (it goes bad if it stays stored to long), and commitment to be 'priority customer' in case of extended outage - the definition of extended outage depends on the size of your fuel tanks!). Then there are the permits, electrical, fuel storage, etc. depending on your localle. And another hot button of mine, doing backkups, testing backups, offsite storage of backups, and testing recovery from ONLY offsite backups and equipment. (do it every 6 months). ... I have an larger and longer diatribe on that. This kind of thing can cost or be done fairly economically with effort. That is economical compared to the cost of not being in business because you weren't prepared. We all hate to pay for insurance, and that is all this is. Now aren't you sorry I am on this mailing list :) IHS ... Jack On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Moore supermegat...@gmail.comwrote: Hi guys. We're looking into getting a generator that can manage to keep the organization going though a power outage. Our setup includes 10 servers, a few switches and routers, and 12 workstations complete with monitors. Any recommendations on where to find information on sizing a generator? What information do I need to know from the servers to best guess their power requirements? Any help would be appreciated. TIA -jonathan
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
On May 8, 2:31 pm, Jonathan Moore supermegat...@gmail.com wrote: Alot of these kind of things are being discussed internally, but right now we're attempting to just size out how big of a generator we need to power what we want. You are doing it backwards. See Tim Jackson's post to appreciate what you must do. Other critical functions such as backup lightning and fire protection systems must also be on backup power. Moving on, computers are so robust that 'dirty' generator electricity will not harm. But a UPS will not permit generator electricity to be delivered because those plug-in UPSes are so cheap and unforgiving. A backup generator system typically comes with temporary UPS to maintain power while the generator kicks in. Your source for that solution will also do the necessary engineering. How much power will a computer need? It's written on a label where each power cord connects to every device. As long as a source can provide that much power, everything is OK. Simple addition. But if you did not know that - knowledge that you should have known if doing any planning - then you have no business planning a backup power system. Consult a professional. Ball park numbers - sum numbers from every power label where the power cord connects. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[nlug] Re: backup power advice
My 2 cents on this topic: If you can do this small scale (and this may not apply to your situation) get a Kill-A-Watt and hook up each of your devices through it. It will tell you EXACTLY how may watts/amps/etc each device is actually pulling from the wall. You can test different devices under different conditions (like the power used at startup or when running at full load.) The Kill-A-Watt (and other devices like it) are pretty cheap (under $50) and tell you exactly what you're using. As I mentioned, this is good for a small scale project. If you've got hundreds or thousands or different devices, then this probably won't work for you. Chris On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: When doing your power spreadsheet, go get a clamp on amp meter, and measure some 'typical' devices. Nameplate numbers are much higher than most configurations. Or better, have an electrician come through and measure your REAL power requirements. But take into consideration, if your systems are turned off, turning them on hits you with an extra high surge load for a few seconds for each system. This is due to startup current for motors in fans for cooling in equipment, disk drives, etc. This surge can be significantly higher than 'running' power, and can shift the power load so it is not insignificant. Some disk drive have 'staggered' power up options. I you have lots of drives, consider re-strapping the drives for staggered startup. In an old SCSI data center systems that some folks were building, they built several LARGE SCSI disk farms. After hearing about that I mentined it to them over a cup of coffee. They just looked at each other and excused themselves to start opening up all the large SCSI raid enclosures so they could re-strap all the drives. Even a large commercial data center (that was designed for the old big IBM mainframes) would stagger under a thousand or more of SCSI drives coming up at the same time after a power outage! It is a challenge to know how to size everything. Oversizing is a costly option to not doing a full analysis. IHS ... Jack --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups NLUG group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
