Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
Hi Bob - I'm pretty much out of patience and time for this - Here's my last attempt - Please give me a phone call if I can clarify anything else. It's much more efficient than email... The facts: 1. Open time trial - men and women. 2. Age-Handicap event. 3. Men in the event are handicapped towards a DIFFERENT standard than the women (since men at their prime are faster than women (of the same fitness/training level) at their prime) with the men getting an UNSURMOUNTABLE advantage for the top in the OVERALL standings. 4. The math dictates that such a handicapping method will almost certainly move most women downwards in the overall rankings from where they'd otherwise be. What was Offensive: 1. Rather than trying to fix the unsurmountable gender advantage (which is SIMPLE to do), the organizer breaks the handicap into two events. 2. The main event (naturally defined as the one with the most participants) is the male event (4 times as many participants).. 3. There can be NO open event (with the official rules) - or at least no FAIR open event, since the women have essentially been handicapped out of the action. (In fact I was told to not even show the results on the same page...). 4. Women are relegated to a second (smaller) event. THIS is offensive to me (and some others) . As a participant in the open tt series for 15 years - I don't come out to this event to just compare my results to the women - Gee, sometimes I have been the only woman out there...). I didn't come last year to the age/handicap event because I found the format (and even more so the reaction to my pointing out the problem with it) objectionable. I only came this year because I'd been away for the whole season and I wanted to get in one of the few remaining TT's. I certainly was NOT there for the official handicap event... Please look at and consider the numbers (handicaps, results, the number of women who did or did not show up, proportion of women participating, etc.). I'm sure that you'll agree that we can make this a better event which draws women in as full participants. And why not? Is my conservative suggesion offensive to others? Again, as I said in my response to Aaron's notes: 1. I offer to produce age/gender handicap pages for each TT (if we can find some statistically sound age/gender performance tables). This would be easy for me to do and I think that many participants would like to see such pages. 2. The age/gender trophies could then perhaps be given to the best male and female age/gender result for the whole year. 3. We could also devise a personal-handicapping method - and perhaps have a special personal-handicap night. (This could of course, also be done every week in the background, but, since we ought to have some recent historical data, and since the event could be presented as something different and special, it might be better to just do it once late in the TT series). Celia Bob Hicks wrote: I really am having trouble understanding the offense to women with the current handicapping system. As far as I can understand, there are 2 distinct sets of results and neither is given precedence. Men are handicapped by age against other men, and women are handicapped by age against other women. What, pray tell, is the main event? I'm not aware that there is one. There is no pretense that this is an individual handicap; it has been presented as a way of determining the best time trialists in the club, with consideration for age. End of history (for now). If the results are consistently skewed in favour of older riders with the current handicapping algorithm, then the algorithm should be reviewed and perhaps revised. It is true that an individual handicapping system could easily be established and that this kind of event would be quite fun. But it is certainly not the only fair handicapping method. Indeed, it could be argued that it would be grossly unfair to the riders who are the most serious and dedicated time trialists, since they would be the least likely to improve their handicap time. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method Aaron Fillion As a person who got no Handicap, I thought this years handicapping method was completely fair. Perhaps you'd think differently if you were a woman who got no handicap in the official event? Or perhaps you'd be a little offended if you were told that sorry, you're not even a participant in the main event, but just to be ranked amongst the other women??? Aaron The problem I see with using a personal handicapping system, is that it is MUCH easier to improve upon your time if you are doing 30 minute 15ks opposed to if you are doing 20 minute 15ks. Hmmm - The current official age-handicapping event actually suffers from this type of problem, whereas a personal
RE: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
Such a program would certainly add dimension to the TT competition, however, it would also add extra workload for someone - do we have enough volunteers to handle it ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method Hi Bob - I'm pretty much out of patience and time for this - Here's my last attempt - Please give me a phone call if I can clarify anything else. It's much more efficient than email... The facts: 1. Open time trial - men and women. 2. Age-Handicap event. 3. Men in the event are handicapped towards a DIFFERENT standard than the women (since men at their prime are faster than women (of the same fitness/training level) at their prime) with the men getting an UNSURMOUNTABLE advantage for the top in the OVERALL standings. 4. The math dictates that such a handicapping method will almost certainly move most women downwards in the overall rankings from where they'd otherwise be. What was Offensive: 1. Rather than trying to fix the unsurmountable gender advantage (which is SIMPLE to do), the organizer breaks the handicap into two events. 2. The main event (naturally defined as the one with the most participants) is the male event (4 times as many participants).. 3. There can be NO open event (with the official rules) - or at least no FAIR open event, since the women have essentially been handicapped out of the action. (In fact I was told to not even show the results on the same page...). 4. Women are relegated to a second (smaller) event. THIS is offensive to me (and some others) . As a participant in the open tt series for 15 years - I don't come out to this event to just compare my results to the women - Gee, sometimes I have been the only woman out there...). I didn't come last year to the age/handicap event because I found the format (and even more so the reaction to my pointing out the problem with it) objectionable. I only came this year because I'd been away for the whole season and I wanted to get in one of the few remaining TT's. I certainly was NOT there for the official handicap event... Please look at and consider the numbers (handicaps, results, the number of women who did or did not show up, proportion of women participating, etc.). I'm sure that you'll agree that we can make this a better event which draws women in as full participants. And why not? Is my conservative suggesion offensive to others? Again, as I said in my response to Aaron's notes: 1. I offer to produce age/gender handicap pages for each TT (if we can find some statistically sound age/gender performance tables). This would be easy for me to do and I think that many participants would like to see such pages. 2. The age/gender trophies could then perhaps be given to the best male and female age/gender result for the whole year. 3. We could also devise a personal-handicapping method - and perhaps have a special personal-handicap night. (This could of course, also be done every week in the background, but, since we ought to have some recent historical data, and since the event could be presented as something different and special, it might be better to just do it once late in the TT series). Celia Bob Hicks wrote: I really am having trouble understanding the offense to women with the current handicapping system. As far as I can understand, there are 2 distinct sets of results and neither is given precedence. Men are handicapped by age against other men, and women are handicapped by age against other women. What, pray tell, is the main event? I'm not aware that there is one. There is no pretense that this is an individual handicap; it has been presented as a way of determining the best time trialists in the club, with consideration for age. End of history (for now). If the results are consistently skewed in favour of older riders with the current handicapping algorithm, then the algorithm should be reviewed and perhaps revised. It is true that an individual handicapping system could easily be established and that this kind of event would be quite fun. But it is certainly not the only fair handicapping method. Indeed, it could be argued that it would be grossly unfair to the riders who are the most serious and dedicated time trialists, since they would be the least likely to improve their handicap time. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method Aaron Fillion As a person who got no Handicap, I thought this years handicapping method was completely fair. Perhaps you'd think differently if you were a woman who got no handicap in the official event? Or perhaps you'd be a little offended
Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
Tom Trottier wrote: I think it would be great for you to generate gender/age handicapped pages every TT! Now, what's the standard and the algorithmn? I still suggest measuring against the best time for each age/gender combination recorded by the OBC in previous years. We definitely can't rely on OBC results for our standards - we don't have enough data to handicap on every birthyear. (In fact we have no data whatsoever for some birthyears). I'm sure we can find some good tables out there somewhere. Celia -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
Not the AGM - we'll never get our beer if we start talking about that - better refer the matter to a handicapping committee, which is the way it was always handled by my alma mater cycling club, the Finsbury Park (www.finsburyparkcc.org). All this, of course is contingent on there being enough interested parties to form such a committtee. -Original Message- From: Aaron Fillion [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [obc] TT Handicapping Method Perhaps you'd think differently if you were a woman who got no handicap in the official event? No, I would not. In fact, as a woman I think would have had a better chance at winning the handicap event. As a woman, I would have only needed to do a time of 21:55 to win. As a man I needed a time of 19:16 to win. Granted, that if I were a woman, I would have a body that is physiologically not capable as producing that same amount of power as a man's body. However, if I were to apply the same amount of training and intensity to that body as I do my own, I would be very surprised if I did not go any faster 21:55. Or perhaps you'd be a little offended if you were told that sorry, you're not even a participant in the main event, but just to be ranked amongst the other women??? There was an award for both the man's and woman's category, so I would not be offended. Now, if I were a woman and had the fastest handicapped time amongst women and got nothing because I had to compete against the men, I would be a little offended. Hmmm - The current official age-handicapping event actually suffers from this type of problem, whereas a personal handicapping system CAN certainly be devised to avoid it! The current official handicapping event gives an unfair advantage to the faster riders in each year of birth - ie., giving all 64 year old males a 165 second advantage regardless of their speed will benefit the faster 64 year old more than the slower 64 year old (ie., the faster rider will travel farther in 165 seconds than will the slower rider) and since we're comparing the performance of both of those 64 year olds with people of OTHER ages, we probably shouldn't be giving one more of an advantage than the other relative to the other age categories... With the current handicapping, it does give the advantage to older fast riders. But, personally, I think older faster riders should be given some type of recognition for being fast. It depends on what you want to accomplish with the handicap event. Do you want give people an advantage for having an older body that should not be able to go as fast. Or do you simply want to make everyone equal going into the event? If everyone is made equal, then the person that wins is the person who improves upon their time the most. I do not think that a improvement event is the way to go, however the club could have a separate award for the most improved male and female cyclist for the year. The only way I can see Personal Handicapping as being fair is to base the improvement required to win on power. Say the person the largest power increase would win. That I guess would be fair, but still it would just be an improvement event. But for a person with a 30-minute baseline would have to reduce their time, much more than a person with a 20-minute baseline time to equal the same amount of power increase. Maybe the club should just have 2 events, one event based on the current system and another based on a Personal Handicap system. The entire handicap system could be an excellent item to bring up at the AGM. Maybe there could even be a vote or something like that on which handicap system most people wish to use. However, it will not be myself bringing the topic up, as I am happy with the current system. -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
So we d agree. You say that you're happy with the current handicapping system, and you indicate that you think that the current system would allow you to win with a time of 21:55 if you were a woman of your age. So you're happy with adding in a gender handicap. The current OFFICIAL handicap event does NOT give the women a gender based handicap (and THAT was my only COMPLAINT) - ie., you'd have to do 19:16 as a woman in order to win. What woman can do that sort of time? This might be comparable to doing 16:27 as a man! (if we compare female and male times in accordance with the world hour record)... The rest of my gist (independent of the above discussion) is that I could ALWAYS trivially generate weekly age/gender handicap web pages in addition to the ones I already produce, and, hence we don't even need a SEPARATE event for age-handicapping. If we still want a(nother) handicap event, we could consider a special personalized-handicap event which would be fun (and could be made fair!) for all participants. Personally I think that this would be a good thing to do (and, yes, Simpson, the mathematical cogs in my brain are spinning!). Celia Aaron Fillion wrote: Perhaps you'd think differently if you were a woman who got no handicap in the official event? No, I would not. In fact, as a woman I think would have had a better chance at winning the handicap event. As a woman, I would have only needed to do a time of 21:55 to win. As a man I needed a time of 19:16 to win. Granted, that if I were a woman, I would have a body that is physiologically not capable as producing that same amount of power as a man's body. However, if I were to apply the same amount of training and intensity to that body as I do my own, I would be very surprised if I did not go any faster 21:55. Or perhaps you'd be a little offended if you were told that sorry, you're not even a participant in the main event, but just to be ranked amongst the other women??? There was an award for both the man's and woman's category, so I would not be offended. Now, if I were a woman and had the fastest handicapped time amongst women and got nothing because I had to compete against the men, I would be a little offended. Hmmm - The current official age-handicapping event actually suffers from this type of problem, whereas a personal handicapping system CAN certainly be devised to avoid it! The current official handicapping event gives an unfair advantage to the faster riders in each year of birth - ie., giving all 64 year old males a 165 second advantage regardless of their speed will benefit the faster 64 year old more than the slower 64 year old (ie., the faster rider will travel farther in 165 seconds than will the slower rider) and since we're comparing the performance of both of those 64 year olds with people of OTHER ages, we probably shouldn't be giving one more of an advantage than the other relative to the other age categories... With the current handicapping, it does give the advantage to older fast riders. But, personally, I think older faster riders should be given some type of recognition for being fast. It depends on what you want to accomplish with the handicap event. Do you want give people an advantage for having an older body that should not be able to go as fast. Or do you simply want to make everyone equal going into the event? If everyone is made equal, then the person that wins is the person who improves upon their time the most. I do not think that a improvement event is the way to go, however the club could have a separate award for the most improved male and female cyclist for the year. The only way I can see Personal Handicapping as being fair is to base the improvement required to win on power. Say the person the largest power increase would win. That I guess would be fair, but still it would just be an improvement event. But for a person with a 30-minute baseline would have to reduce their time, much more than a person with a 20-minute baseline time to equal the same amount of power increase. Maybe the club should just have 2 events, one event based on the current system and another based on a Personal Handicap system. The entire handicap system could be an excellent item to bring up at the AGM. Maybe there could even be a vote or something like that on which handicap system most people wish to use. However, it will not be myself bringing the topic up, as I am happy with the current system. -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email
Re: [obc] TT Handicapping Method
Aaron Fillion As a person who got no Handicap, I thought this years handicapping method was completely fair. Perhaps you'd think differently if you were a woman who got no handicap in the official event? Or perhaps you'd be a little offended if you were told that sorry, you're not even a participant in the main event, but just to be ranked amongst the other women??? Aaron The problem I see with using a personal handicapping system, is that it is MUCH easier to improve upon your time if you are doing 30 minute 15ks opposed to if you are doing 20 minute 15ks. Hmmm - The current official age-handicapping event actually suffers from this type of problem, whereas a personal handicapping system CAN certainly be devised to avoid it! The current official handicapping event gives an unfair advantage to the faster riders in each year of birth - ie., giving all 64 year old males a 165 second advantage regardless of their speed will benefit the faster 64 year old more than the slower 64 year old (ie., the faster rider will travel farther in 165 seconds than will the slower rider) and since we're comparing the performance of both of those 64 year olds with people of OTHER ages, we probably shouldn't be giving one more of an advantage than the other relative to the other age categories... Celia -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
