Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Ben Companjen]

On 7 April 2013 18:13, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
 wrote:
> Well, since I'm here already, I might as well join the discussion :)
>
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Karen Coyle  wrote:
>>
>> 1) Jessamyn - can you add a Q to the FAQ of the sort "Help, I made a
>> huge mess!"? I guess it should say to end email to help, and include the
>> URL of the page involved in the mess.
>
>
> It should also give some idea of the expected reaction time. If I see "send
> an email" and a link to the report thingy, I might feel disheartened. If it
> says "please contact us! We try to fix any problems like these in a couple
> days" (or whatever is true - this one was certainly fast, and it's Sunday!)
> it'd make me more likely to write.

Jessamyn has been really helpful in the relatively short time she's
been active :)

[snip]
>
>> 3) We still don't have an online discussion forum -- we have pages, but
>> no where except email to discuss. Maybe that's just a matter of starting
>> up a page and making it a discussion? I just feel like we have a lot of
>> info that is buried in the email list that then doesn't help others who
>> run into the same thing.
>
>
> For what it's worth, the first thing I looked for when I saw this was an IRC
> channel - that's usually the best place for people to get instant help in
> MusicBrainz, but of course it depends on having a group of people who are
> active on IRC which might not be true of OpenLibrary.

There are about 9 people in #openlibrary on Freenode. I'm around
regularly, usually in the evening CE(S)T.

There is some info that I hope even beginners can understand on
, linked on the
 page. (Feel free to improve the
text!)

[snip]
>
> But I couldn't find any description of the lists, apart from their names -
> while I won't claim we're perfect in this regard, we do have
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Communication/Mailing_Lists which clearly (I
> hope!) explains what each of the lists is for. Here, I wasn't sure where to
> write: lib, since this seems related to the librarianship-ish part of OL?
> tech, since it's clearly also a tech problem? Or discuss, since it's more
> general and probably more active? I picked the latter, but still don't know
> if one of the others would have been a better choice :)

I wrote the one line list descriptions on /community (I don't have
access to /help). There aren't "clearer" descriptions of what message
should go where, as far as I know.
>
> Also, there seems to be no easily-available archive of the lists. It's
> strange enough that they are visible only to members (aren't we an open
> project? Hope so, since I just included me in it without even noticing it
> with that "we"). It's just silly that once I *am* a member, I get "Message
> Archives - Message archival for this list have been disabled." Isn't this an
> Internet Archive project? How is *not archiving* lists something that makes
> sense in that context? I did find an external archive of -discuss (not of
> -lib, though) but it seems very weird that OL doesn't seem to have one.

So you mean there is no archive under openlibrary.org or archive.org,
not that there is no archive at all. I don't really understand why
either, but because of earlier questions "hey, is there no list
archive?", I linked the available archives on the community page.
ol-lib is really low traffic - I've seen one or two messages in the
past year. Probably because noone knows what it's for...

The community page is really one of the first steps towards being more
open to contributions from the general public (other than
author/work/book edits and code).
>
>  A dashboard page with every reported problem would be nice,
> too!

There was one for admins some years ago (I found, whereas Im not an
admin). I heard the admins wanted it gone, and it went.
>
>> 4) Related to #3, there isn't a way that I can see to "watch" a page and
>> be notified about changes. I still see a need for a full-fledged wiki
>> for some of this work.
>
>
> Might I suggest a similar system to the one we use? In MusicBrainz, each
> user can "subscribe to" specific artists, and get notified daily when
> changes are made to them. It works similarly to "watch" in Wikipedia, I
> guess - in our case it is useful in that since our changes aren't usually
> instantaneous, it lets people know if they have something to vote on for
> their subscribed artists, or labels... but I'd say it would certainly be
> useful even if only to see a diff. In answer to Laurence, I don't think edit
> wars would be a problem. I know they don't seem to be with our system, at
> least, but in general, books are hopefully less controversial a subject than
> most of Wikipedia's, and should mean we get a more peaceful crowd.

That would be nice. May I suggest that programmers look at the Recent
Changes API, which can be queried for changes by certain users,
changes of a certain type and changes to a certain page, all wit

Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Ben Companjen]

I'm afraid Tom is correct in that an "unmerge" is needed. The works
are not showing up under John Leonard Greenberg, because the index
(from which the works are retrieved) was not updated in that period.
We've discussed index issues several times before, but to me it's
still unclear whether the backlog (all updates between summer and last
month or so) will be cleared.

On 7 April 2013 17:15, Tom Morris  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
>  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Karen Coyle  wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow. This really is a mess. Goethe links to John Leonard Greenberg:
>>>
>>> {"created": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
>>> "2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462"},
>>> "last_modified": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
>>> "2012-10-06T06:14:51.772036"},
>>> "latest_revision": 23,
>>> "location": "/authors/OL575040A", < -- John Leonard Greenberg
>>> "key": "/authors/OL13193A", <- Goethe
>>> "type": {"key": "/type/redirect"}, "revision": 23}
>>>
>>> So there's no way to see the Goethe  author page or anything authored by
>>> Goethe. Someone here knows how to retrieve earlier revisions ... Could
>>> we see a couple prior to #23 for /authors/OL13193A? Maybe someone merged
>>> these manually and we can roll back the merge?
>>
>>
>> Most confusing is that, with a normal merge, all of Goethe's works
>> *should* appear on Greenberg's page, shouldn't they? They're certainly
>> attributed to him, see http://openlibrary.org/works/OL15087757W/Briefe
>>
>> Yet http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL575040A/John_Leonard_Greenberg shows
>> only 4 works (not including that one).
>
>
>
> You may have looked after I reverted part of the bad merge.  I've fixed up
> Goethe as well
>
> http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL13193A/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe?v=21
>
> but what's really needed is to revert this entire merge:
>
> http://openlibrary.org/recentchanges/2012/10/06/merge-authors/47124736
>
> I presume Anand has tools to do this programatically, but if not I could
> write a quick script to do it.  It's too bad the user who made the bad merge
> didn't tell someone back in October.  It's pretty clear from the edit
> history that they realized they'd messed up.
>
> Tom
>
>
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Laurence Penney]

Sorry, you’re right about the URL. I must have clicked Problem again and got to 
a generic-seeming /contact URL.

But yes, some feedback that the report will be tagged correctly is important. 
Also, “this page is really messed up” can only be reported by looking through 
the dropdown and choosing the 10th category of problem (“Other”), which is not 
good. The form should assume it’s a problem with this particular record; more 
general problems with OL should be reported via other mechanisms.

- Laurence

On 7 Apr 2013, at 17:37, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren  
wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Laurence Penney  wrote:
> Thanks for pointing out the Problem button. I’d never noticed it! It’s a pain 
> to have to copy & paste the URL of the problematic record (a URL which you 
> have to press Back to retrieve) in order to report it. A button which 
> assumes, and records automatically, that you are reporting problems about the 
> current page is sorely needed.
> 
> Given that the page link *is* feeded into the URL, I'm assuming that page 
> *does* know the page you come from and include it in the report in some way. 
> It is fairly unclear though, and there's no reason someone would need to look 
> at the URL - I'd have expected a line in the form that indicated already that 
> you were reporting a mistake in that specific page, so that people notice 
> it's there.
> 
> Nicolás 
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Laurence Penney  wrote:

> Thanks for pointing out the Problem button. I’d never noticed it! It’s a
> pain to have to copy & paste the URL of the problematic record (a URL which
> you have to press Back to retrieve) in order to report it. A button which
> assumes, and records automatically, that you are reporting problems about
> the current page is sorely needed.
>

Given that the page link *is* feeded into the URL, I'm assuming that page
*does* know the page you come from and include it in the report in some
way. It is fairly unclear though, and there's no reason someone would need
to look at the URL - I'd have expected a line in the form that indicated
already that you were reporting a mistake in that specific page, so that
people notice it's there.

Nicolás
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Laurence Penney]

Thanks for pointing out the Problem button. I’d never noticed it! It’s a pain 
to have to copy & paste the URL of the problematic record (a URL which you have 
to press Back to retrieve) in order to report it. A button which assumes, and 
records automatically, that you are reporting problems about the current page 
is sorely needed.

- Laurence

On 7 Apr 2013, at 17:17, Tom Morris  wrote:

> 
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Karen Coyle  wrote:
> On 4/7/13 8:15 AM, Tom Morris wrote:
> 
> > It's too bad the user who made the bad
> > merge didn't tell someone back in October.  It's pretty clear from the
> > edit history that they realized they'd messed up.
> 
> I suspect we don't have an obvious way for people to notify us about
> such errors. That's another thing we should think about -- how to notify
> OL about errors. It doesn't make sense to join ol-tech for that purpose
> -- it seems more something that should be send to the help email.
> 
> so...
> 
> 1) Jessamyn - can you add a Q to the FAQ of the sort "Help, I made a
> huge mess!"? I guess it should say to end email to help, and include the
> URL of the page involved in the mess.
> 
> A FAQ answer would be useful, but there is a reasonably accessible reporting 
> mechanism.  One of the problem categories for the Flag which is at the bottom 
> of every page is "Editing problem."  Perhaps we could add "Bad merge" to that 
> or make it a separate category.
> 
> Tom
>  
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Tom Morris]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Karen Coyle  wrote:

> On 4/7/13 8:15 AM, Tom Morris wrote:
>
> > It's too bad the user who made the bad
> > merge didn't tell someone back in October.  It's pretty clear from the
> > edit history that they realized they'd messed up.
>
> I suspect we don't have an obvious way for people to notify us about
> such errors. That's another thing we should think about -- how to notify
> OL about errors. It doesn't make sense to join ol-tech for that purpose
> -- it seems more something that should be send to the help email.
>
> so...
>
> 1) Jessamyn - can you add a Q to the FAQ of the sort "Help, I made a
> huge mess!"? I guess it should say to end email to help, and include the
> URL of the page involved in the mess.


A FAQ answer would be useful, but there is a reasonably accessible
reporting mechanism.  One of the problem categories for the Flag which is
at the bottom of every page is "Editing problem."  Perhaps we could add
"Bad merge" to that or make it a separate category.

Tom
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Well, since I'm here already, I might as well join the discussion :)

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Karen Coyle  wrote:

> 1) Jessamyn - can you add a Q to the FAQ of the sort "Help, I made a
> huge mess!"? I guess it should say to end email to help, and include the
> URL of the page involved in the mess.
>

It should also give some idea of the expected reaction time. If I see "send
an email" and a link to the report thingy, I might feel disheartened. If it
says "please contact us! We try to fix any problems like these in a couple
days" (or whatever is true - this one was certainly fast, and it's Sunday!)
it'd make me more likely to write.


> 2) Can we get the community page listed on the home page? Then we can
> link from that to the FAQ as well. (In fact, I find the Help page
> singularly unhelpful at the moment, but I assume that Jessamyn has
> noticed that as well.)
>

The first thing I noticed on the Help page (and which still surprises me
every time) is that it doesn't even *link* to the editing FAQ directly. I'd
say the "edit/correct" on "You are welcome to edit/correct any errors or
omissions you see on Open Library" should certainly link to
http://openlibrary.org/help/faq/editing (either that, or it should read:
"You are welcome to edit/correct any errors or omissions you see on Open
Library - it's an open, editable wiki. Look for the EDIT button. See our
Editing FAQ to learn more".)

3) We still don't have an online discussion forum -- we have pages, but
> no where except email to discuss. Maybe that's just a matter of starting
> up a page and making it a discussion? I just feel like we have a lot of
> info that is buried in the email list that then doesn't help others who
> run into the same thing.
>

For what it's worth, the first thing I looked for when I saw this was an
IRC channel - that's usually the best place for people to get instant help
in MusicBrainz, but of course it depends on having a group of people who
are active on IRC which might not be true of OpenLibrary.

Since I have a distrust of forms like http://openlibrary.org/contact (maybe
undeserved, but my experience with those is that people take ages to reply)
and also since it's generally more useful to contact the community
directly, I then moved on to check mailing lists.

But I couldn't find any description of the lists, apart from their names -
while I won't claim we're perfect in this regard, we do have
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Communication/Mailing_Lists which clearly (I
hope!) explains what each of the lists is for. Here, I wasn't sure where to
write: lib, since this seems related to the librarianship-ish part of OL?
tech, since it's clearly also a tech problem? Or discuss, since it's more
general and probably more active? I picked the latter, but still don't know
if one of the others would have been a better choice :)

Also, there seems to be no easily-available archive of the lists. It's
strange enough that they are visible only to members (aren't we an open
project? Hope so, since I just included me in it without even noticing it
with that "we"). It's just silly that once I *am* a member, I get "Message
Archives - Message archival for this list have been disabled." Isn't this
an Internet Archive project? How is *not archiving* lists something that
makes sense in that context? I did find an external archive of -discuss
(not of -lib, though) but it seems very weird that OL doesn't seem to have
one.

And since I just saw the "Problem?" button for the first time, I'm not sure
it's in a very good place. And that seems to just send a mail to the same
support centre as the normal contact option, skipping the users - a better
way would seem to be something like Laurence suggests, where future (only
logged-in?) visitors to the page would be told "Someone reported a problem!
Can you help?". A dashboard page with every reported problem would be nice,
too!

4) Related to #3, there isn't a way that I can see to "watch" a page and
> be notified about changes. I still see a need for a full-fledged wiki
> for some of this work.


Might I suggest a similar system to the one we use? In MusicBrainz, each
user can "subscribe to" specific artists, and get notified daily when
changes are made to them. It works similarly to "watch" in Wikipedia, I
guess - in our case it is useful in that since our changes aren't usually
instantaneous, it lets people know if they have something to vote on for
their subscribed artists, or labels... but I'd say it would certainly be
useful even if only to see a diff. In answer to Laurence, I don't think
edit wars would be a problem. I know they don't seem to be with our system,
at least, but in general, books are hopefully less controversial a subject
than most of Wikipedia's, and should mean we get a more peaceful crowd.
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Laurence Penney]

On 7 Apr 2013, at 16:39, Karen Coyle  wrote:
> I suspect we don't have an obvious way for people to notify us about 
> such errors. That's another thing we should think about -- how to notify 
> OL about errors. It doesn't make sense to join ol-tech for that purpose 
> -- it seems more something that should be send to the help email.

How about a Report button, so that people can report all sorts of errors and 
vandalism? Ideally with a mandatory text field so that people can say what is 
wrong with the page. OpenStreetBugs helps OpenStreetMap users on the ground 
report problems to those that have the time and skills to fix them. Spotting 
problems and fixing them are complementary skills, and it’s an outdated and 
flawed attitude in wiki projects that the spotter should fix the spotted errors.

> 4) Related to #3, there isn't a way that I can see to "watch" a page and 
> be notified about changes. I still see a need for a full-fledged wiki 
> for some of this work.

This is a really good idea. Allowing watching would encourage people to put 
effort into a page. Like Wikipedia you could view recent changes to watched 
pages. Hopefully there’d be fewer edit wars than on Wikipedia though!

- Laurence

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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Karen Coyle]

Thanks, Tom.

On 4/7/13 8:15 AM, Tom Morris wrote:

>
> I presume Anand has tools to do this programatically, but if not I could
> write a quick script to do it.  It's too bad the user who made the bad
> merge didn't tell someone back in October.  It's pretty clear from the
> edit history that they realized they'd messed up.

I suspect we don't have an obvious way for people to notify us about 
such errors. That's another thing we should think about -- how to notify 
OL about errors. It doesn't make sense to join ol-tech for that purpose 
-- it seems more something that should be send to the help email.

so...

1) Jessamyn - can you add a Q to the FAQ of the sort "Help, I made a 
huge mess!"? I guess it should say to end email to help, and include the 
URL of the page involved in the mess.
2) Can we get the community page listed on the home page? Then we can 
link from that to the FAQ as well. (In fact, I find the Help page 
singularly unhelpful at the moment, but I assume that Jessamyn has 
noticed that as well.)
3) We still don't have an online discussion forum -- we have pages, but 
no where except email to discuss. Maybe that's just a matter of starting 
up a page and making it a discussion? I just feel like we have a lot of 
info that is buried in the email list that then doesn't help others who 
run into the same thing.
4) Related to #3, there isn't a way that I can see to "watch" a page and 
be notified about changes. I still see a need for a full-fledged wiki 
for some of this work.

kc

>
> Tom

-- 
Karen Coyle
kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Tom Morris]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <
reosare...@musicbrainz.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Karen Coyle  wrote:
>
>> Wow. This really is a mess. Goethe links to John Leonard Greenberg:
>>
>> {"created": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
>> "2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462"},
>> "last_modified": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
>> "2012-10-06T06:14:51.772036"},
>> "latest_revision": 23,
>> "location": "/authors/OL575040A", < -- John Leonard Greenberg
>> "key": "/authors/OL13193A", <- Goethe
>> "type": {"key": "/type/redirect"}, "revision": 23}
>>
>> So there's no way to see the Goethe  author page or anything authored by
>> Goethe. Someone here knows how to retrieve earlier revisions ... Could
>> we see a couple prior to #23 for /authors/OL13193A? Maybe someone merged
>> these manually and we can roll back the merge?
>>
>
> Most confusing is that, with a normal merge, all of Goethe's works
> *should* appear on Greenberg's page, shouldn't they? They're certainly
> attributed to him, see http://openlibrary.org/works/OL15087757W/Briefe
>
> Yet http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL575040A/John_Leonard_Greenberg shows
> only 4 works (not including that one).
>


You may have looked after I reverted part of the bad merge.  I've fixed up
Goethe as well

http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL13193A/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe?v=21

but what's really needed is to revert this entire merge:

http://openlibrary.org/recentchanges/2012/10/06/merge-authors/47124736

I presume Anand has tools to do this programatically, but if not I could
write a quick script to do it.  It's too bad the user who made the bad
merge didn't tell someone back in October.  It's pretty clear from the edit
history that they realized they'd messed up.

Tom
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Tom Morris]

I've fixed up Greenberg by reverting to rev 2 and then reapplying the his
bio,

http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL575040A/John_Leonard_Greenberg?v=2

but there are more entries which need to be cleaned up (including the one
Karen found).

Tom




On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Karen Coyle  wrote:

> Wow. This really is a mess. Goethe links to John Leonard Greenberg:
>
> {"created": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
> "2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462"},
> "last_modified": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
> "2012-10-06T06:14:51.772036"},
> "latest_revision": 23,
> "location": "/authors/OL575040A", < -- John Leonard Greenberg
> "key": "/authors/OL13193A", <- Goethe
> "type": {"key": "/type/redirect"}, "revision": 23}
>
> So there's no way to see the Goethe  author page or anything authored by
> Goethe. Someone here knows how to retrieve earlier revisions ... Could
> we see a couple prior to #23 for /authors/OL13193A? Maybe someone merged
> these manually and we can roll back the merge?
>
> kc
>
> On 4/7/13 6:48 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote:
> > Hi! We've been linking to OL pages from MusicBrainz artists, and I'm
> > quite confused about the situation with Goethe. See the results on
> > http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=Johann+Wolfgang+von+Goethe
> >
> > Am I mistaken, or has Goethe been wrongly merged with a completely
> > unrelated author? (twice!). If I'm right, how could we fix the mess? Can
> > a merge be undone?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Nicolás
> >
> >
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>
> --
> Karen Coyle
> kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
> ph: 1-510-540-7596
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Karen Coyle  wrote:

> Wow. This really is a mess. Goethe links to John Leonard Greenberg:
>
> {"created": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
> "2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462"},
> "last_modified": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value":
> "2012-10-06T06:14:51.772036"},
> "latest_revision": 23,
> "location": "/authors/OL575040A", < -- John Leonard Greenberg
> "key": "/authors/OL13193A", <- Goethe
> "type": {"key": "/type/redirect"}, "revision": 23}
>
> So there's no way to see the Goethe  author page or anything authored by
> Goethe. Someone here knows how to retrieve earlier revisions ... Could
> we see a couple prior to #23 for /authors/OL13193A? Maybe someone merged
> these manually and we can roll back the merge?
>

Most confusing is that, with a normal merge, all of Goethe's works *should*
appear on Greenberg's page, shouldn't they? They're certainly attributed to
him, see http://openlibrary.org/works/OL15087757W/Briefe

Yet http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL575040A/John_Leonard_Greenberg shows
only 4 works (not including that one).

--
Nicolás
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Re: [ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Karen Coyle]

Wow. This really is a mess. Goethe links to John Leonard Greenberg:

{"created": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value": 
"2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462"},
"last_modified": {"type": "/type/datetime", "value": 
"2012-10-06T06:14:51.772036"},
"latest_revision": 23,
"location": "/authors/OL575040A", < -- John Leonard Greenberg
"key": "/authors/OL13193A", <- Goethe
"type": {"key": "/type/redirect"}, "revision": 23}

So there's no way to see the Goethe  author page or anything authored by 
Goethe. Someone here knows how to retrieve earlier revisions ... Could 
we see a couple prior to #23 for /authors/OL13193A? Maybe someone merged 
these manually and we can roll back the merge?

kc

On 4/7/13 6:48 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote:
> Hi! We've been linking to OL pages from MusicBrainz artists, and I'm
> quite confused about the situation with Goethe. See the results on
> http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=Johann+Wolfgang+von+Goethe
>
> Am I mistaken, or has Goethe been wrongly merged with a completely
> unrelated author? (twice!). If I'm right, how could we fix the mess? Can
> a merge be undone?
>
> Cheers,
> Nicolás
>
>
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-- 
Karen Coyle
kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet
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[ol-discuss] Goethe's redirect mess

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Hi! We've been linking to OL pages from MusicBrainz artists, and I'm quite
confused about the situation with Goethe. See the results on
http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=Johann+Wolfgang+von+Goethe

Am I mistaken, or has Goethe been wrongly merged with a completely
unrelated author? (twice!). If I'm right, how could we fix the mess? Can a
merge be undone?

Cheers,
Nicolás
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