Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On 10/13/2011 9:26 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Shane Curcurua...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. As mentioned before, 333 legacy OOo lists are already archived, back to 2000, by Markmail. D'oh, I should have thought of this. For legacy content the Markmail archive is sufficient, although for any AOOo project content we always rely on ASF archives for new materials to insulate ourselves against third parties losing data (or changing policies, or going out of business...) But this does raise another question, as to how we move/migrate these lists (or whatever subset we want to preserve) to Apache. In other words, what can be done to preserve the continuity of the current list subscribers? I see a few approaches, with trade-offs on effort/benefit. 1) We could set up equivalent lists at Apache, on the existing list infrastructure. We send notifications to the legacy lists that the existing list will be shut down and invite them to subscribe to the new list address. In some cases multiple legacy lists might be combined into a single Apache list. Pro: very easy to do Con: requires some manual steps from existing subscribers, to sign up for the new list, adjust inbox filters, etc. +1, especially along lines of consolidating lists to be close to what other ASF projects have. OOo had waaay too many lists. We'll need more than any other project at the ASF, but not that many more. 2) We could do a variation on #1, but where we sign up existing list subscribers automatically. Pro: Transparent from subscribers view. Not too hard for us. Con: Is this permitted, given data protection laws, legacy website terms of use, etc. In other words, can we legally do this? -1, this is a known bad practice at the ASF. In virtually all the list migration cases I know of, we only do #1 (and explicitly do not do #2). 3) Variation on #2 where we send a notification email directly to each list subscriber and allow them to opt-in to transferring their subscription Pro: Little effort (but not zero effort) required for list subscribers, respects data privacy Con: A bit of work for us This would be great. If someone wants to do it (i.e. making the process for users to subscribe to the new list easily). 4) We do a variation on #2 or #3 but then (waving my arms here) use some admin kung fu with DNS records to make the mailing list look like it is still an openoffice.org email address. Pro: This could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective. Con: More work for us. Not sure if it is possible 5) Variation on #4 where instead of messing with DNS, we just have the Apache mailing list manager deal with openoffice.org addresses natively Pro: As with #4, this could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective Con: Can this be done list by list Or is it an all-or-nothing thing? #4 or #5: -0.5 We should explicitly figure out the lists that the AOOo project community needs and wants, instead of inheriting previous lists. 6) Install the legacy OOo mailing list manager, SYMPA, at Apache and bring over the subscribers (and list archives?) directly. Pro: Transparent to users Con: More admin work for us, and not just a one-time migration, but ongoing maintenance by Apache of two email list infrastructures. -0, and realize that the AOOo project would likely need to devote skilled sysadmin volunteers to running this system. - Shane Any other options? -Rob
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. As mentioned before, 333 legacy OOo lists are already archived, back to 2000, by Markmail. But this does raise another question, as to how we move/migrate these lists (or whatever subset we want to preserve) to Apache. In other words, what can be done to preserve the continuity of the current list subscribers? I see a few approaches, with trade-offs on effort/benefit. 1) We could set up equivalent lists at Apache, on the existing list infrastructure. We send notifications to the legacy lists that the existing list will be shut down and invite them to subscribe to the new list address. In some cases multiple legacy lists might be combined into a single Apache list. Pro: very easy to do Con: requires some manual steps from existing subscribers, to sign up for the new list, adjust inbox filters, etc. 2) We could do a variation on #1, but where we sign up existing list subscribers automatically. Pro: Transparent from subscribers view. Not too hard for us. Con: Is this permitted, given data protection laws, legacy website terms of use, etc. In other words, can we legally do this? 3) Variation on #2 where we send a notification email directly to each list subscriber and allow them to opt-in to transferring their subscription Pro: Little effort (but not zero effort) required for list subscribers, respects data privacy Con: A bit of work for us 4) We do a variation on #2 or #3 but then (waving my arms here) use some admin kung fu with DNS records to make the mailing list look like it is still an openoffice.org email address. Pro: This could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective. Con: More work for us. Not sure if it is possible 5) Variation on #4 where instead of messing with DNS, we just have the Apache mailing list manager deal with openoffice.org addresses natively Pro: As with #4, this could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective Con: Can this be done list by list Or is it an all-or-nothing thing? 6) Install the legacy OOo mailing list manager, SYMPA, at Apache and bring over the subscribers (and list archives?) directly. Pro: Transparent to users Con: More admin work for us, and not just a one-time migration, but ongoing maintenance by Apache of two email list infrastructures. Any other options? -Rob
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. As mentioned before, 333 legacy OOo lists are already archived, back to 2000, by Markmail. But this does raise another question, as to how we move/migrate these lists (or whatever subset we want to preserve) to Apache. In other words, what can be done to preserve the continuity of the current list subscribers? I see a few approaches, with trade-offs on effort/benefit. 1) We could set up equivalent lists at Apache, on the existing list infrastructure. We send notifications to the legacy lists that the existing list will be shut down and invite them to subscribe to the new list address. In some cases multiple legacy lists might be combined into a single Apache list. Pro: very easy to do Con: requires some manual steps from existing subscribers, to sign up for the new list, adjust inbox filters, etc. And just so it is clear to everyone, this is the option that will occur if no one volunteers to take the lead on an alternative approach. We've done it for example, with the ooo-users and ooo-discuss lists. You can think of the ooo-dev list as another example. -Rob 2) We could do a variation on #1, but where we sign up existing list subscribers automatically. Pro: Transparent from subscribers view. Not too hard for us. Con: Is this permitted, given data protection laws, legacy website terms of use, etc. In other words, can we legally do this? 3) Variation on #2 where we send a notification email directly to each list subscriber and allow them to opt-in to transferring their subscription Pro: Little effort (but not zero effort) required for list subscribers, respects data privacy Con: A bit of work for us 4) We do a variation on #2 or #3 but then (waving my arms here) use some admin kung fu with DNS records to make the mailing list look like it is still an openoffice.org email address. Pro: This could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective. Con: More work for us. Not sure if it is possible 5) Variation on #4 where instead of messing with DNS, we just have the Apache mailing list manager deal with openoffice.org addresses natively Pro: As with #4, this could make the move entirely transparent from the user's perspective Con: Can this be done list by list Or is it an all-or-nothing thing? 6) Install the legacy OOo mailing list manager, SYMPA, at Apache and bring over the subscribers (and list archives?) directly. Pro: Transparent to users Con: More admin work for us, and not just a one-time migration, but ongoing maintenance by Apache of two email list infrastructures. Any other options? -Rob
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: 2) We could do a variation on #1, but where we sign up existing list subscribers automatically. Pro: Transparent from subscribers view. Not too hard for us. Con: Is this permitted, given data protection laws, legacy website terms of use, etc. In other words, can we legally do this? 3) Variation on #2 where we send a notification email directly to each list subscriber and allow them to opt-in to transferring their subscription Pro: Little effort (but not zero effort) required for list subscribers, respects data privacy Con: A bit of work for us I would suggest #3 over #2...reduce the risk that the spammers will migrate. Don
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists This was discussed previously. We have Markmail archives of all of the OOo mailing lists going back to 2000, covering 333 lists and 1.6 million posts: http://openoffice.markmail.org/ This is linked to from our mailing list page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. I don't think we need an archive beyond Markmail. But I have no objections if someone wants to make another copy. I'd certainly like to review some of the past lists, especially the marketing/branding and strategy ones. I could imagine that a number of the developer lists might also be valuable for future reference as well. Indeed. -Rob - Shane
RE: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
Shane, If you register on the openoffice.org site (recommended), and are logged in, you will find something amazing at http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists. Those are not all of the lists. There are, in addition, 15 pages of Projects (146 total), http://openoffice.org/projects. (Be logged in to view this too.) The Native Language (NL) projects appear to be here too. I believe that the static content has been captured. Kay Schenk can report whether she has captured them all. Nothing about the interactive aspects such as mailing lists and the community efforts is being sustained or salvaged as far as I know. There seem to be three aspects here: 1. These deserve pruning. Our alternative, so far, has been to add two mailing lists to ooo-* @i.a.o. 2. No one able to handle preparation, staging, and figuring out what to install and administer to continue on Apache infrastructure has stepped forward at AOOo. It is not clear who has the keys to those operations. When Terry Ellison was working to provide a migration of the MediaWiki setup and the Forums services onto Apache Infrastructure, he reported that he had no capacity to add this under his wing. No one else with knowledge of this kind of service has been identified. 3. It would be great if there were some energetic body, similar to the Forums squad, that could step in and find a way to embrace and sustain what is still important as part of the OpenOffice.org ecosystem. I don't have anything constructive to offer beyond pointing at the burning building. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 16:45 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives? Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. I'd certainly like to review some of the past lists, especially the marketing/branding and strategy ones. I could imagine that a number of the developer lists might also be valuable for future reference as well. - Shane
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Shane, If you register on the openoffice.org site (recommended), and are logged in, you will find something amazing at http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists. Those are not all of the lists. There are, in addition, 15 pages of Projects (146 total), http://openoffice.org/projects. (Be logged in to view this too.) The Native Language (NL) projects appear to be here too. I believe that the static content has been captured. Kay Schenk can report whether she has captured them all. Nothing about the interactive aspects such as mailing lists and the community efforts is being sustained or salvaged as far as I know. There seem to be three aspects here: 1. These deserve pruning. Our alternative, so far, has been to add two mailing lists to ooo-* @i.a.o. 2. No one able to handle preparation, staging, and figuring out what to install and administer to continue on Apache infrastructure has stepped forward at AOOo. It is not clear who has the keys to those operations. When Terry Ellison was working to provide a migration of the MediaWiki setup and the Forums services onto Apache Infrastructure, he reported that he had no capacity to add this under his wing. No one else with knowledge of this kind of service has been identified. 3. It would be great if there were some energetic body, similar to the Forums squad, that could step in and find a way to embrace and sustain what is still important as part of the OpenOffice.org ecosystem. Maybe the SpamAssassin PMC would be interested in archiving the legacy mailing lists? From what I can tell, most of the 146 mailing lists seem to receive nothing but spam. It could prove to be a useful corpus for them. -Rob I don't have anything constructive to offer beyond pointing at the burning building. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 16:45 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives? Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. I'd certainly like to review some of the past lists, especially the marketing/branding and strategy ones. I could imagine that a number of the developer lists might also be valuable for future reference as well. - Shane
Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?
Dennis, On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: Shane, If you register on the openoffice.org site (recommended), and are logged in, you will find something amazing at http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists. Those are not all of the lists. There are, in addition, 15 pages of Projects (146 total), http://openoffice.org/projects. (Be logged in to view this too.) The Native Language (NL) projects appear to be here too. I believe that the static content has been captured. Kay Schenk can report whether she has captured them all. Things are probably fully captured. Kay, Raphael and I have all checked in projects. The variation in the html for each project is the next thing that I must tackle on branding/migration. The checklist of projects including NL projects is the same. If someone cares to join me in Apache CMS and python and other scripting then see http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html I'll be working on variations of view.pm and path.pm to provide the proper wrapping strategy as indicated by the html in each project. There are scripts in ooo-site/trunk/tools - See readme.txt for docs about the scripts. Kay and I are debating URL rewriting which I do via sed. Nothing about the interactive aspects such as mailing lists and the community efforts is being sustained or salvaged as far as I know. It has been a question that has not been asked of Apache Infrastructure. This could use a volunteer. There seem to be three aspects here: Are you describing all of OOo or just the MX part in the following three points? I will assume that is so. 1. These deserve pruning. Our alternative, so far, has been to add two mailing lists to ooo-* @i.a.o. 2. No one able to handle preparation, staging, and figuring out what to install and administer to continue on Apache infrastructure has stepped forward at AOOo. It is not clear who has the keys to those operations. When Terry Ellison was working to provide a migration of the MediaWiki setup and the Forums services onto Apache Infrastructure, he reported that he had no capacity to add this under his wing. No one else with knowledge of this kind of service has been identified. In recent discussions Martin Hollmichel apparently has some foo with the Mailing Lists. I'm not sure if it the correct foo, or simple Admin. I wonder if Andrew has any insight into this. 3. It would be great if there were some energetic body, similar to the Forums squad, that could step in and find a way to embrace and sustain what is still important as part of the OpenOffice.org ecosystem. In a related area there are upwards of 460,000 individuals subscribed as OpenOffice.org users. It is is unclear what we can take - this may fall under tight German privacy laws. Do we care to preserve this User Database? I don't have anything constructive to offer beyond pointing at the burning building. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 16:45 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives? Are there any plans to preserve archives of any existing @oo.o mailing lists? I didn't see a treatment of archives on the planning page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists Obviously any mailing lists hosted at Apache will use the normal mail-archive.a.o system, but I was wondering if there's any plan or need for somehow preserving the past archives of lists. I'd certainly like to review some of the past lists, especially the marketing/branding and strategy ones. I could imagine that a number of the developer lists might also be valuable for future reference as well. - Shane
