Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
Hi Richard, thank you for your fast answer. I know you are a bussy man. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. I don't know where you got that impression. Jasper did the design, and there were a couple of people who spent a couple weeks working on software. And that wasn't writing the DukePad software, predominantly, but it was fixing performance issues in Prism that affect all platforms. The value is in embedded development. Before JavaOne we didn't have all the agreements in place to work with Freescale. The Raspberry PI has a nice following, is great for educational purposes and home-brew, so it was a great choice to build a demo on top of (as opposed to, say, a BeagleBoard or BeagleBone which is either more expensive or doesn't have the same size following). Having an actual project to work on also teases out bugs and performance issues, and most of the work leading up to JavaOne was in finding and fixing these issues. These same issues will affect any embedded project, including the RoboVM / iOS / Android work. Why do you guys always talk about embedded development? The old days of embbedded stuff have been without an OS. What we are talking about are not really embedded platforms, these are Desktop systems like Linux/Android (linux base)/iOS (berkley based) with energy optimized kernels which are primary used on an ARM CPUs. From my point of view the summary of an ARM cpu, operating systems and toolkits build the platform. Unfortunately, I missed the Freescale announcment. How could I miss it? (I used to work with their Motorola dev boards back in time) http://gigaom.com/2013/09/23/oracle-and-freescale-push-java-for-the-internet-of-things/ I read this announcement and now I hopefully understand the idea where JavaFX should end up. Oracle wants to establish a network of little running devices based on Linux/JavaFX build inside any electric device. Now I understand everything much better. off topic: Nice idea, but keep in mind we have 2013 and it is the phase of consolidation in the software and OS market. The costumer don't want a closed system. Just one question. You want to buy a fridge in late 2014 with a tablet interface on the front door. You are in a very big Target super market. There you will find one with JavaFX powered logo and another one with Google Android. Which one do you buy? What I want to say is, that as long as there are others using well known operating interfaces it will be very very hard to enter this market. Sure there is always a chance to enter a new market but wouldn't it be smart to enter a currently used operating system and let the customer get used to a particular technology? Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you mean Windows Phone 8? Because Windows 8 is a given. Yes, I meant Windows Phone 8. Sure, this is currently not a major player in my opinion it has a much broader audiance and end-user acceptance than a linux based system. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. No, none of this. DukePad is not a product. We made that pretty clear, it's an open source hardware/software design for the Raspberry PI community. We will make no money off the designs and Oracle isn't selling anything here. For us it was a vehicle on which we could demonstrate our ability to run well on embedded devices, and find and fix bugs along the way. Oracle isn't going to produce a mobile device. DukePad was not any kind of product announcement. Those kinds of things happen in strategy keynotes, not in technical keynotes. Ok, the rasp-pi stuff is done for demonstration purposes and as a development platform. I see. The direction is clearly enriched internet things. That means for me it is the end of my hopes for JavaFX as a game changer on every platform. Thanks for enlighten me, this makes our future decisions a bit easier. kind regards Matthias
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
Richard, why do you choose Rasp.PI as demo platform instead of iPad or Android tablet? I really believe in you JFX guys and I really believe that you all love to see JFX on tablets. So I don’t understand why you can’t open your mouth, go to your management and legal department and tell him, that’s important to talk to the community. What you do currently is to sedate the community with tech demos on Rasp.PI like you sedate a dog :) Sorry, for that, but that’s how we feel. Keep up the good work and hopefully the time comes for you guys. It’s late because QT 5.2 fully supports iOS and Android now. But it’s not to late. Am 30.09.2013 um 19:18 schrieb Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com: 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. What? The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. I don't know where you got that impression. Jasper did the design, and there were a couple of people who spent a couple weeks working on software. And that wasn't writing the DukePad software, predominantly, but it was fixing performance issues in Prism that affect all platforms. The value is in embedded development. Before JavaOne we didn't have all the agreements in place to work with Freescale. The Raspberry PI has a nice following, is great for educational purposes and home-brew, so it was a great choice to build a demo on top of (as opposed to, say, a BeagleBoard or BeagleBone which is either more expensive or doesn't have the same size following). Having an actual project to work on also teases out bugs and performance issues, and most of the work leading up to JavaOne was in finding and fixing these issues. These same issues will affect any embedded project, including the RoboVM / iOS / Android work. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you mean Windows Phone 8? Because Windows 8 is a given. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. No, none of this. DukePad is not a product. We made that pretty clear, it's an open source hardware/software design for the Raspberry PI community. We will make no money off the designs and Oracle isn't selling anything here. For us it was a vehicle on which we could demonstrate our ability to run well on embedded devices, and find and fix bugs along the way. Oracle isn't going to produce a mobile device. DukePad was not any kind of product announcement. Those kinds of things happen in strategy keynotes, not in technical keynotes. Richard
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.) 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo. short history summarize: 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was already time to look at the other platforms. 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it was announced again (but canceled). From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already developed parts on desktop and for mobile we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a short time but in the long term we'll probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time that we would need to build our real products. To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further development in the right direction, but wrong it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. We need an iOS-build, an Android-build and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
Hi guys, I understand your frustration about the cancelled sessions, and I share it. But when I talk to the engineers and see their posts here, they're clearly interested in the same stuff we'd like to see in JavaFX. I guess nobody was more frustrated that these sessions were cancelled than the engineers who submitted them. If you want to talk about something new and exiting you will have to let some company lawyers approve it. This takes some time. My guess is, that the approval for the talks might not have arrived in time. If I was right, and the reason for the talks being removed are just of temporary nature, then I guess the best strategy now is to keep calm and carry on for a bit. Regards --Toni P.s.: @Matthias: Regarding your thoughts about JavaFX in a browser: - WORA matters - I think it's the whole point that started this discussion. - Using Cordova you can package your app as a native app. So you've got a working solution, which is admittedly not feature complete and not usable for every application, but much better than nothing. - JavaScript is a huge problem as it leads to ugly unmaintainable code. Right now there are tons of projects desperately trying to solve that issue (GWT, typescript, ...). bck2brwsr is one of the solutions. It enables you to write clean Java(FX) code and still run in the browser without the need to install any plugin. So bck2brwsr solves a real world problem. That's why it matters. Am 30.09.2013 um 14:03 schrieb Matthias Hänel hae...@ultramixer.com: Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.) 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
Hello Matthias, This is just how Oracle rolls, we have to get used to it. And actually it is not that bad of an attitude; never make a promise you can't keep. When deliver, deliver well. I'm in a project which communicates way to much to end users and they keep being disappointed. I kinda think not informing them would be smart. Tom
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
On 30/09/2013 17:38, Anton Epple wrote: Hi guys, I understand your frustration about the cancelled sessions, and I share it. But when I talk to the engineers and see their posts here, they're clearly interested in the same stuff we'd like to see in JavaFX. I guess nobody was more frustrated that these sessions were cancelled than the engineers who submitted them. If you want to talk about something new and exiting you will have to let some company lawyers approve it. This takes some time. My guess is, that the approval for the talks might not have arrived in time. To be honest, it is likely JavaFX already missed its window to become relevant on Android and iOS. These platforms are not waiting for anyone and are being aggressively pushed into all kinds of new areas (console gaming, entertainment hubs, general productivity, etc). Oracle should count itself lucky that Google even used a Java-like language for its platform or they'd stand no chance at all anymore in this space. There are already dozens of frameworks that work with Dalvik that compete in atleast part of the same space as JavaFX -- many of them cross platform. Just one of these needs to be actively pushed by a big name and gone is your opportunity. These markets donot move at the snails pace that lawyers and courts move. Limiting yourself to the speed of your legal department is a guaranteed way to become irrelevant. My 2 cents --John If I was right, and the reason for the talks being removed are just of temporary nature, then I guess the best strategy now is to keep calm and carry on for a bit. Regards --Toni P.s.: @Matthias: Regarding your thoughts about JavaFX in a browser: - WORA matters - I think it's the whole point that started this discussion. - Using Cordova you can package your app as a native app. So you've got a working solution, which is admittedly not feature complete and not usable for every application, but much better than nothing. - JavaScript is a huge problem as it leads to ugly unmaintainable code. Right now there are tons of projects desperately trying to solve that issue (GWT, typescript, ...). bck2brwsr is one of the solutions. It enables you to write clean Java(FX) code and still run in the browser without the need to install any plugin. So bck2brwsr solves a real world problem. That's why it matters. Am 30.09.2013 um 14:03 schrieb Matthias Hänelhae...@ultramixer.com: Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.) 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself,
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
On 2013-09-30 18:27, John Hendrikx wrote: To be honest, it is likely JavaFX already missed its window to become relevant on Android and iOS. Maybe, but I've done my fair share of UI toolkits and JFX really has some great features compared to the others (not counting layout - pun intended ;-). So you could be right, but you could also still be wrong. Tom
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. What? The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. I don't know where you got that impression. Jasper did the design, and there were a couple of people who spent a couple weeks working on software. And that wasn't writing the DukePad software, predominantly, but it was fixing performance issues in Prism that affect all platforms. The value is in embedded development. Before JavaOne we didn't have all the agreements in place to work with Freescale. The Raspberry PI has a nice following, is great for educational purposes and home-brew, so it was a great choice to build a demo on top of (as opposed to, say, a BeagleBoard or BeagleBone which is either more expensive or doesn't have the same size following). Having an actual project to work on also teases out bugs and performance issues, and most of the work leading up to JavaOne was in finding and fixing these issues. These same issues will affect any embedded project, including the RoboVM / iOS / Android work. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you mean Windows Phone 8? Because Windows 8 is a given. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. No, none of this. DukePad is not a product. We made that pretty clear, it's an open source hardware/software design for the Raspberry PI community. We will make no money off the designs and Oracle isn't selling anything here. For us it was a vehicle on which we could demonstrate our ability to run well on embedded devices, and find and fix bugs along the way. Oracle isn't going to produce a mobile device. DukePad was not any kind of product announcement. Those kinds of things happen in strategy keynotes, not in technical keynotes. Richard
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
@Matthias, no, I am not kidding. Put your faith in the technology, not the politics. On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel hae...@ultramixer.com wrote: Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.) 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo. short history summarize: 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was already time to look at the other platforms. 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it was announced again (but canceled). From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already developed parts on desktop and for mobile we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a short time but in the long term we'll probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time that we would need to build our real products. To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further development
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
@John, I do not believe it is too late for JavaFX on mobiles and tablets. It is a far better UI toolkit and platform than anything else available on those devices so if Oracle can get it to work well there then we are looking at a potential world beater :-) On 1 Oct 2013, at 2:27, John Hendrikx hj...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 30/09/2013 17:38, Anton Epple wrote: Hi guys, I understand your frustration about the cancelled sessions, and I share it. But when I talk to the engineers and see their posts here, they're clearly interested in the same stuff we'd like to see in JavaFX. I guess nobody was more frustrated that these sessions were cancelled than the engineers who submitted them. If you want to talk about something new and exiting you will have to let some company lawyers approve it. This takes some time. My guess is, that the approval for the talks might not have arrived in time. To be honest, it is likely JavaFX already missed its window to become relevant on Android and iOS. These platforms are not waiting for anyone and are being aggressively pushed into all kinds of new areas (console gaming, entertainment hubs, general productivity, etc). Oracle should count itself lucky that Google even used a Java-like language for its platform or they'd stand no chance at all anymore in this space. There are already dozens of frameworks that work with Dalvik that compete in atleast part of the same space as JavaFX -- many of them cross platform. Just one of these needs to be actively pushed by a big name and gone is your opportunity. These markets donot move at the snails pace that lawyers and courts move. Limiting yourself to the speed of your legal department is a guaranteed way to become irrelevant. My 2 cents --John If I was right, and the reason for the talks being removed are just of temporary nature, then I guess the best strategy now is to keep calm and carry on for a bit. Regards --Toni P.s.: @Matthias: Regarding your thoughts about JavaFX in a browser: - WORA matters - I think it's the whole point that started this discussion. - Using Cordova you can package your app as a native app. So you've got a working solution, which is admittedly not feature complete and not usable for every application, but much better than nothing. - JavaScript is a huge problem as it leads to ugly unmaintainable code. Right now there are tons of projects desperately trying to solve that issue (GWT, typescript, ...). bck2brwsr is one of the solutions. It enables you to write clean Java(FX) code and still run in the browser without the need to install any plugin. So bck2brwsr solves a real world problem. That's why it matters. Am 30.09.2013 um 14:03 schrieb Matthias Hänelhae...@ultramixer.com: Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable
Re: Moving on to a round house kick (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)
I'm not an apologist for Oracle, but in their defense, I can't see any commercial company telegraphing their punches by pre-announcing technology. If you want support for those platforms, feel free fork the codebase and write it. I'd be satisified if we could get high-priority bugs and performance issues taken care of and back-ported to 7 on a monthly basis. Anything beyond that is just gravy. Cheers, Mark On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Tobias Bley t...@ultramixer.com wrote: The problem is the technology (no iOS/Android support) AND politics (Oracle doesn’t speak to the community) Am 30.09.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Felix Bembrick felix.bembr...@gmail.com: @Matthias, no, I am not kidding. Put your faith in the technology, not the politics. On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel hae...@ultramixer.com wrote: Hi, @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community. He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream code-once-run-anywhere comes true. The closer JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here. As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology. I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here. What did we heard over here from JavaOne? 1. JavaFX is still in development 2. Dukepad is released 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup (4. Javafx runs in a browser) I'll start at the bottom: (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well. This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.) 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me. 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo. short history summarize: 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding and the potential is not even comparable from my point
