Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Carlo Wood]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 09:42:27AM -0800, Kelly Linden wrote:
> I admit I only briefly skimmed the jira.  I was mostly reacting to the panic I
> saw here.  I don't think it needs a permission request in the case of parcel
>  owners, but that is just my personal opinion. I do believe the environment
> should be promoted to being part of the content and not part of the viewer, I
> think we get more amazing in world experiences that way.

+1

WindLight settings should have made a shared experiece a long
long long time ago. For years people have been complaining about
delivering half-work, about not finishing it!

It is no different than whether the region default is midday,
sunrise, sunset or midnight (or anything in between).

A *shared experience* is an important part of Second Life,
it is even mentioned in the TPV policy as being of major
importance, something I whole heartedly agree with!

To me, it is crucial to know that my friends, when we are
exploring, see the same thing as me, so that we can react to
it and weave a story around our collective experience, without
that I have to ask: what is your draw distance? what is your
environment setting? :(

Hence, all windlight settings should at LEAST be part of the
region default and be set the moment you enter, without popups
or permission request by default.

I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
deny them power over their own viewer, so there should be
an opt-in to ignore windlight settings (and keep the current
one). But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
set? 

More important questions are these:

* Who can change the windlight settings?
* Should there we windlight settings per estate only, or
  per parcel as well?

And things that I would like personally are things
that promote sharing windlight settings:

* Allow windlight settings to be 'traded' like objects.

It should be possible for ANYONE to create their own
windlight setting (that only they see at that moment)
and then "hand that over" to friends, or to the estate
owner, or to a parcel owner, or just keep a collection
of them to play with.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] New topic: Snowglobe 2.0 way forward?

[Carlo Wood]

Who is going to reject a contribution to snowglobe?
Ok... some can write a technically perfect patch, but with an
impact that nobody wants, that's a fact (think about 2.0).
So there has to be line: at some point it has to be decided if a
patch should be accepted; but how does that work?

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 01:20:44PM -0500, Mike Monkowski wrote:
> Except for Merov's contributions, I don't think Snowglobe ever had a 
> planned direction.  The direction was just the sum of the contributions 
> people made to it.  And I expect it will continue that way.  If someone 
> thinks that chat needs to be fixed and they have the time to fix it, 
> then they probably will.  The real question is whether such a 
> contribution would be accepted.  I happen to think it would be dangerous 
> to reject such a contribution.
> 
> Mike

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] New topic: Snowglobe 2.0 way forward?

[Aleric Inglewood]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The new interface breaks immersion, it places the world as just another
> small area of the screen with a bunch of other things outside of it.
>

 I reject the new interface.

I refuse to download it.
I refuse to use it.
I refuse to support it as a developer.

I'm even disappointed by the sheep that instantly started to reappy
all ignored 1.x patches and are working their ass off to get 2.0 to
compile and run... What is the use? Are you going to use it yourself?
I'd like to know the reasoning why you put so much free, unpaid,
time into helping a big corporation with their money maker application
when they don't ever listen to US in the first place. We have no say,
we're just code slaves; and even then only a few patches are hand
picked.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Carlo Wood]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 06:40:23PM +0100, Latif Khalifa wrote:
> I'm talking about implementation of
> http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677 not the LSL script setting
> environment. Yes, the region setting would be shown by default,
> because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Asking for permissions
> for stuff like setting light and sky settings makes as much sense as
> asking for permission to show a house in your viewer once you have
> entered a region.

+2

If region settings aren't shown by default (where people can use
advanced to reject any changes to their environment for all I care),
then it makes no sense.

While, if an in-world object uses LSL to change the windlight
settings of one particular user, it should ask for permissions
first. Even if that object is owner by the sim owner.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Carlo Wood]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 09:57:50AM -0800, Kelly Linden wrote:
> The very sky around you should be part of the content, part of the
> place. I can't get over how awesome I think that would be.
> 
>  - Kelly

This is the first time I actually hope that LL is going to do what they
want... if Kelly represents what they want that is :p

Still a bit concerned about the immeasurable delay that occured between
implementing WindLight in the viewer and now, though :/ when are we ever
going to see this finished?

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Carlo Wood]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 01:05:38PM -0500, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)  
wrote:
> I can just imagine a new use for all those tiny little ex-adfarm
> parcels along mainland roads: noob traps that force a blinding
> Windlight set on the unwary.

You're being a child with all this :/. Why aren't you complaining
about:

* noob traps that force a high pitched squeel in my headphones
  when I enter their parcel. God forbids parcel media.

* noob traps that force me to look at 4 meter high advertisement
  billboards. God forbids texturing by users, or building.

* noob traps that cause unexpected main road walkers to drop
  into 4 meter deep holes. God forbid terrain editting, or at
  LEAST diable phantom for parcel owners so they can't cover
  up their traps!

* noob, noob?? Damnit, even I walk often happy and immersed
  into a parcel when suddenly "You are ejected from this parcel!"
  I want to decide myself where I go ok? Suddenly being banned
  from a parcel for, no reason whatsoever mind you, highly
  destroys my feeling of being immersed the world. Why not have
  a prim pittbull chase me or something realistic? Being ejected
  should be an opt-in, at the very least!!!

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 07:45, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
> I'm even disappointed by the sheep that instantly started to reappy
> all ignored 1.x patches and are working their ass off to get 2.0 to
> compile and run... What is the use? Are you going to use it yourself?

So you think the way forward to Snowglobe should be to ignore 2.x and  
see about backporting the 2.x functional improvements to 1.3.x?

What would Linden Lab do if people actually started doing that?


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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:

> I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
> and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
> deny them power over their own viewer,

Good, thank you. Because there are people who don't seem to believe in
that; that owning some parcel should give them huge rights to control
other people's viewers.

> But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
> ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
> set?

Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior of
automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Lear Cale]

I agree.  WL settings are about the appearance of the environment, not
the GUI per se.
And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be supported
as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make a JIRA for that,
Carlo?)

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 09:42:27AM -0800, Kelly Linden wrote:
>> I admit I only briefly skimmed the jira.  I was mostly reacting to the panic 
>> I
>> saw here.  I don't think it needs a permission request in the case of parcel
>>  owners, but that is just my personal opinion. I do believe the environment
>> should be promoted to being part of the content and not part of the viewer, I
>> think we get more amazing in world experiences that way.
>
> +1
>
> WindLight settings should have made a shared experiece a long
> long long time ago. For years people have been complaining about
> delivering half-work, about not finishing it!
>
> It is no different than whether the region default is midday,
> sunrise, sunset or midnight (or anything in between).
>
> A *shared experience* is an important part of Second Life,
> it is even mentioned in the TPV policy as being of major
> importance, something I whole heartedly agree with!
>
> To me, it is crucial to know that my friends, when we are
> exploring, see the same thing as me, so that we can react to
> it and weave a story around our collective experience, without
> that I have to ask: what is your draw distance? what is your
> environment setting? :(
>
> Hence, all windlight settings should at LEAST be part of the
> region default and be set the moment you enter, without popups
> or permission request by default.
>
> I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
> and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
> deny them power over their own viewer, so there should be
> an opt-in to ignore windlight settings (and keep the current
> one). But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
> ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
> set?
>
> More important questions are these:
>
> * Who can change the windlight settings?
> * Should there we windlight settings per estate only, or
>  per parcel as well?
>
> And things that I would like personally are things
> that promote sharing windlight settings:
>
> * Allow windlight settings to be 'traded' like objects.
>
> It should be possible for ANYONE to create their own
> windlight setting (that only they see at that moment)
> and then "hand that over" to friends, or to the estate
> owner, or to a parcel owner, or just keep a collection
> of them to play with.
>
> --
> Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 08:56, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior of
> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)

It *what*?

Um, yeh, that's a complete deal-breaker for the 2.0 viewer. Thanks for  
the heads-up.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Lear Cale]

I think we're arguing over something that's a side effect of an
implementation decision, not a fundamental issue of personal liberty.
Windlight happens to be client side rather than server-side, even
though it's more about the environment -- the created world -- than it
is about personal control of the GUI's look and feel.

In any case, a lot of people will want to retain control and should be able to.

I suggest that, for parcel or region control, the first time an
automatically-grantable request to change WL happens, the user should
see a popup which asks whether to allow it, along with a "don't ask
again" checkbox.  This popup would be in the form of a GUI popup
rather than the permission popup.  The permission popup would only be
for cases where permission isn't automatically grantable.  (The script
would think it got permission, and this should be DOCUMENTED so it
doesn't get reported as a bug.)

This should satisfy most people on both sides of this fence.  Most
people would grant it and never worry again.  Those who don't want to
yield control would only have to click "no" once.  And it would be a
checkbox in the "View" menu somewhere, to change on a whim.

Lear

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
 wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>
>> I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
>> and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
>> deny them power over their own viewer,
>
> Good, thank you. Because there are people who don't seem to believe in
> that; that owning some parcel should give them huge rights to control
> other people's viewers.
>
>> But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
>> ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
>> set?
>
> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior of
> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Lear Cale]

Oops, clarification.  The script would think it got permission in the
case where it's automatically granted, but denied by the GUI popup.
In the case where permission isn't automatic, the user gets the popup
and the script gets permissions only if the answer is affirmative.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Lear Cale  wrote:
> I think we're arguing over something that's a side effect of an
> implementation decision, not a fundamental issue of personal liberty.
> Windlight happens to be client side rather than server-side, even
> though it's more about the environment -- the created world -- than it
> is about personal control of the GUI's look and feel.
>
> In any case, a lot of people will want to retain control and should be able 
> to.
>
> I suggest that, for parcel or region control, the first time an
> automatically-grantable request to change WL happens, the user should
> see a popup which asks whether to allow it, along with a "don't ask
> again" checkbox.  This popup would be in the form of a GUI popup
> rather than the permission popup.  The permission popup would only be
> for cases where permission isn't automatically grantable.  (The script
> would think it got permission, and this should be DOCUMENTED so it
> doesn't get reported as a bug.)
>
> This should satisfy most people on both sides of this fence.  Most
> people would grant it and never worry again.  Those who don't want to
> yield control would only have to click "no" once.  And it would be a
> checkbox in the "View" menu somewhere, to change on a whim.
>
> Lear
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
>  wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>>
>>> I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
>>> and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
>>> deny them power over their own viewer,
>>
>> Good, thank you. Because there are people who don't seem to believe in
>> that; that owning some parcel should give them huge rights to control
>> other people's viewers.
>>
>>> But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
>>> ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
>>> set?
>>
>> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
>> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior of
>> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Kuraiko Yoshikawa]

> And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be supported
> as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make a JIRA for that,
> Carlo?)
>
Yea this is a nice idea but not really new...
If I remember rightly LL announced this as a soon future of windlight in 
one of the first WindLight blog posts... also only ca. 3years ago *lol*
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Martin Spernau]

> On 2010-03-12, at 08:56, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
>> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
>> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior  
>> of
>> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)

It's an option in Preferences>Sound & Media to enable/disable sreaming  
musc and or media (also Voice)
They can be muted, and they can be disbaled.

Possibly it *defaults* to enabled though

-Martin


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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Martin Spernau]

I guess it would make sense to handle this similar to the daytime  
overrides in the World>Environbment menu. I can set the time to say  
'Midnight' and I can also 'Revert to Region Default'
-Martin

Am 12.03.2010 um 16:33 schrieb Lear Cale:

> I think we're arguing over something that's a side effect of an
> implementation decision, not a fundamental issue of personal liberty.
> Windlight happens to be client side rather than server-side, even
> though it's more about the environment -- the created world -- than it
> is about personal control of the GUI's look and feel.
>
> In any case, a lot of people will want to retain control and should  
> be able to.
>
> I suggest that, for parcel or region control, the first time an
> automatically-grantable request to change WL happens, the user should
> see a popup which asks whether to allow it, along with a "don't ask
> again" checkbox.  This popup would be in the form of a GUI popup
> rather than the permission popup.  The permission popup would only be
> for cases where permission isn't automatically grantable.  (The script
> would think it got permission, and this should be DOCUMENTED so it
> doesn't get reported as a bug.)
>
> This should satisfy most people on both sides of this fence.  Most
> people would grant it and never worry again.  Those who don't want to
> yield control would only have to click "no" once.  And it would be a
> checkbox in the "View" menu somewhere, to change on a whim.
>
> Lear
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
>  wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>>
>>> I suppose that some people do NOT want a shared experience
>>> and to live in their own little isolated world. Well, can't
>>> deny them power over their own viewer,
>>
>> Good, thank you. Because there are people who don't seem to believe  
>> in
>> that; that owning some parcel should give them huge rights to control
>> other people's viewers.
>>
>>> But may I remind you that there is ALSO no opt-in to
>>> ignore the music url of a parcel, and keep the one you have
>>> set?
>>
>> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
>> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior  
>> of
>> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)]

That's not what it does.

Streaming media (and media on a prim) is enabled on by default as opposed to 
the old viewer where it was off and needed to be explicitly enabled.  There are 
pros and cons to either approach of course. And it is a beta. This is an area 
I'm sure LL would appreciate some feedback since it's a new feature/extension 
of an existing one.

If you don't like it you can turn it off and selectively enable media as 
desired.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Argent 
Stonecutter
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:28 AM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment 
/ SVC-5520

On 2010-03-12, at 08:56, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
> Actually *loading* the music URL *IS* an opt in, thank goodness, in
> the current production viewer (and the current beta viewer behavior of
> automatically willy-nilly loading of URLs is a *huge* security issue)

It *what*?

Um, yeh, that's a complete deal-breaker for the 2.0 viewer. Thanks for  
the heads-up.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 09:43, Martin Spernau wrote:
> I guess it would make sense to handle this similar to the daytime
> overrides in the World>Environbment menu. I can set the time to say
> 'Midnight' and I can also 'Revert to Region Default'

So long as it's a SEPARATE override!

I don't mind letting the region specify the time for me.

I sure as hell mind letting the region override my carefully  
constructed windlight settings that I set to let me actually play SL  
without eyestrain!
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments aboutllSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Kitty]

> And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be 
> supported as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make 
> a JIRA for that, Carlo?)

That was supposed to be the idea all along:

"SHAREABLE settings! Since SL is a social world, we think you'll agree it'd
be great - and time-saving - to swap skies and related settings. Imagine
coming up with a gloriously surreal sweep straight out of Koyaanisqatsi and
Baraka's love-child and wanting to show it off, like you can with other
inventory item types." (May 2007)

"In the future, we plan to allow estate owners and managers to change them,
as a dramatic evolution of the current dayphase controls found in World menu
> Region/Estate > Estate tab." (May 2007)

"There is more exciting work planned for WindLight, including estate
controls for custom skies/water and making skies/water available as
tradeable inventory items. Stay tuned for more info." (November 2007)

Then Windlight became the "main viewer" in April 2008 and I don't think
we've heard about it since (including any of the other planned improvements
like clouds casting shadows on the terrain, lunar cycles, post-processing
effects and a better cloud simulator).

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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Martin Spernau]

Am 12.03.2010 um 16:58 schrieb Dickson, Mike (ISS Software):

> the old viewer where it was off and needed to be explicitly enabled.

Well if you are a new user (first login etc) you get the "This oarcel  
can.. Do you want to auto play media by default' Dialog. At leastit  
ask you once ^^ - if you at that point understand what it's asking,  
you do have the choice to disable it. I'll assume that most new users  
may simply click yes

If the viewer 2 would disable media on a prim by default... ut's  
highly likely that a ton of users would never learn about it. As such  
I guess 'default on' is the way to go - if you want the feature to be  
known that is ^^

For those who do NOT want the feature, it can be disabled by a  
preference setting.

I'm not saying anything about the security aspect etc. What I am  
saying is that if LL wants this new feature to be known, they'd use  
'on by default' - Or at least ask the user the first time they  
encounter it (like for streaming media)

-Martin

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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 09:58, Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote:
> That's not what it does.
>
> Streaming media (and media on a prim) is enabled on by default as  
> opposed to the old viewer where it was off and needed to be  
> explicitly enabled.  There are pros and cons to either approach of  
> course. And it is a beta. This is an area I'm sure LL would  
> appreciate some feedback since it's a new feature/extension of an  
> existing one.

Oh, that's a lot less dire. Thank you.

I still think that

* Streaming media and media on a prim should be OFF by default.
* When enabled, there should be a warning that this may expose you to  
privacy and security exploits.

I don't think that the SL client should be considered as secure and  
reliable an environment as a web browser: it's much larger and more  
complex and there have been indirect attacks on the viewer (eg, map- 
bombing) even though the SL servers act as a fairly good application  
level proxy firewall between users. People shouldn't be accessing  
potentially untrusted URLs from the client without explicit action.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 10:12, Martin Spernau wrote:
> Well if you are a new user (first login etc) you get the "This  
> oarcel can.. Do you want to auto play media by default' Dialog. At  
> leastit ask you once ^^ - if you at that point understand what it's  
> asking, you do have the choice to disable it. I'll assume that most  
> new users may simply click yes
>
> If the viewer 2 would disable media on a prim by default... ut's  
> highly likely that a ton of users would never learn about it. As  
> such I guess 'default on' is the way to go - if you want the feature  
> to be known that is ^^

It could use the same dialog that is uses for auto-play media.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Martin Spernau]

Am 12.03.2010 um 17:30 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:

>> If the viewer 2 would disable media on a prim by default... ut's
>> highly likely that a ton of users would never learn about it. As
>> such I guess 'default on' is the way to go - if you want the feature
>> to be known that is ^^
>
> It could use the same dialog that is uses for auto-play media.

Yes, I agree

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Ardy Lay]

Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>
> So you think the way forward to Snowglobe should be to ignore 2.x and  
> see about backporting the 2.x functional improvements to 1.3.x?
>
> What would Linden Lab do if people actually started doing that?
>   
I remember several instances when people asked what Viewer 2.0 would 
bring to Second Life and them getting back the answer "You will be 
amazed!" Well, I am. Not particularly happy though. I see some bug fixes 
we have been hoping for, for a long time, made it into Viewer 2.0, but I 
cannot use the UI. All the winking, blinking and bouncing gives me 
seizures. Hell, I can play stuff like Battlezone II and Portal without 
problems but something about Viewer 2.0's UI drives me over the edge. 
Most games do make me uncomfortable but Second Life has never been an 
issue until now. I can kill particles. I can kill face lights. I can 
return spinning flashy garbage and I can teleport home avatars that 
cause me grief but I cannot do anything about the UI but avoid it. Back 
to Snowglobe 1.4.0 for me.

I have heard the excuse that "It tests well with new users" several 
times but I really don't care what a person that doesn't care about 
Second Life and doesn't know diddle squat about what's missing or broken 
in the UI thinks about it. "Play testing" only works when you make sure 
the "player" is involved in ALL ASPECTS of the game. In Second Life 
that's a VERY TALL ORDER. No way are you going to get the uninitiated 
man off the street involved deeply enough to properly gauge your UI. All 
you can do with him is fiddle with the few things he does whine about 
until he stops whining about it. Something I learned long ago, give a 
man a task to perform and when he fails to perform satisfactorily his 
first excuse amounts to him blaming the tools. This has resulted in many 
broken golf clubs and damaged power tools. Imagine what would happen if 
sporting equipment and tool manufacturers failed to properly train their 
product testers and blindly followed their suggestions?

I know I am going to catch heat for this post. Somebody is going to tell 
me "That's not the way worked" or some such rubbish. Well, when you 
sequester your User Interface design and development away from the users 
for a year while making massive changes you have to expect a large 
number of those users to dislike the results and suspect you are not 
acting in their best interests. After all, we have to use this thing, 
not the random people that are not interested in Second Life that 
answered some ad to be a product tester for some unnamed product.

Argent, to answer your question, I think the proper thing to do is 
distance the UI from the rest of the code. Maybe LL has started doing 
this. A decent API for user interface functions that pushes the UI code 
out of the render loop is gonna have to happen eventually. I think now 
is the time. I only wish I had the mental capacity to dive into this 
task and achieve results. God knows I need the job.

What would Linden Lab do if people started enhancing Snowglobe 1.x with 
features added to Viewer 2.0 by Linden Lab? Rub their hands together and 
cackle with glee as their user support costs go down because more and 
more users are using an unsupported viewer would be my first guess. 
Until there is a public announcement, in the Linden Blog FEATURED 
section from "up stairs" telling us insignificant little existing users 
that this is not the case I am sticking with my opinion that "up stairs" 
only cares about the real world population that IS NOT in Second Life 
already. All argument against it here will be ignored as usual as I know 
for a fact that many Linden Lab employees do in fact care a great deal. 
They will have to let their upper management fend for themselves in this 
issue

We are being fed conflicting information by Linden Lab employees. It may 
not be deliberate. It may just be people repeating stuff they hear 
without really thinking about how it will formulate in our minds. We 
have some people telling us Linden Lab cannot foresee the future and we 
have people telling us that Viewer 1.x will be supported for the 
foreseeable future. This fires off both of my doublespeak detectors. 
(That's bullshit detectors for the laymen out there.)

This is Ardy Lay and turn the lights off on your way out.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Martin Spernau]

My feeling is that it would make the most sense to add a 'old style  
UI' as option to Snowglobe 2, along with the ability to turn off all  
unwanted new features (media on prim etc)
-Martin

Am 12.03.2010 um 15:23 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:

> On 2010-03-12, at 07:45, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
>> I'm even disappointed by the sheep that instantly started to reappy
>> all ignored 1.x patches and are working their ass off to get 2.0 to
>> compile and run... What is the use? Are you going to use it yourself?
>
> So you think the way forward to Snowglobe should be to ignore 2.x and
> see about backporting the 2.x functional improvements to 1.3.x?
>
> What would Linden Lab do if people actually started doing that?
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Argent Stonecutter
 wrote:
> On 2010-03-12, at 07:45, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
>> I'm even disappointed by the sheep that instantly started to reappy
>> all ignored 1.x patches and are working their ass off to get 2.0 to
>> compile and run... What is the use? Are you going to use it yourself?
>
> So you think the way forward to Snowglobe should be to ignore 2.x and
> see about backporting the 2.x functional improvements to 1.3.x?
>
> What would Linden Lab do if people actually started doing that?

We would be glad that people had another choice of viewers, of course.
Different people have different tastes. I still use a Snowglobe
1.3-based viewer in my free time because I'm more of a text person
than an icon person. For a long time, I was even patching in the old
communicator dialogs to save a little screen space.

Other Lindens have already taken to the 2.0 interface and don't like
going back. With infinite resources, we would probably keep supporting
both in order to keep curmudgeons like me happier. Since we can't
cover every last interest though - the code's out there.

With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

Porting the desired parts of the old UI forward to 2.x would be a lot
easier than porting ongoing 2.x features backward to 1.3. I wouldn't
be surprised if you found there were just a couple dialogs you really
wanted back. Bring the old communicate window back and embed the
sidebar items in stand-alone floaters? You might even be able to get
the latter part into Snowglobe if it's minimally invasive and done as
a preference option.

If you took the forward porting approach, you'd also be better able to
use and contribute patches.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Martin Spernau  wrote:
> My feeling is that it would make the most sense to add a 'old style
> UI' as option to Snowglobe 2, along with the ability to turn off all
> unwanted new features (media on prim etc)
> -Martin
>
> Am 12.03.2010 um 15:23 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:
>
>> On 2010-03-12, at 07:45, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
>>> I'm even disappointed by the sheep that instantly started to reappy
>>> all ignored 1.x patches and are working their ass off to get 2.0 to
>>> compile and run... What is the use? Are you going to use it yourself?
>>
>> So you think the way forward to Snowglobe should be to ignore 2.x and
>> see about backporting the 2.x functional improvements to 1.3.x?
>>
>> What would Linden Lab do if people actually started doing that?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Martin Spernau]

Am 12.03.2010 um 17:47 schrieb Soft Linden:
> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.

Which is why my feeling is that it makes more sense to add tjhe old UI  
to the new viewer. 
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[opensource-dev] Building Snowglobe 2.0

[Jeff Eastman]

I'm new to this project and have been trying to build Snowglobe 2.0 on 
my Snow Leopard Mac. The download process went fairly smoothly until I 
got to actually running the XCode build. At that point I found many, 
many incorrect OS version dependencies (to OSX 10.4) that I had to fix 
one artifact at a time. As I believe the project structure was built by 
running develop.py I wonder if there is a global way to fix the OS 
dependency so that, the next time I update my source, I won't have to do 
the tedious editing by hand.

Now I have a hard build failure attempting to open 
/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/llplugin/slplugin/RelWithDebInfo/SLPlugin, 
which does not exist. Any ideas on what I've done wrong?

Jeff






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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Robert Martin]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Martin Spernau  wrote:
> Am 12.03.2010 um 17:47 schrieb Soft Linden:
>> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
>> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.
>
> Which is why my feeling is that it makes more sense to add tjhe old UI
> to the new viewer.
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just adding to the conga line

LINDEN LABS KNEW THE NEW UI HAD MASSIVE PROBLEMS ive seen one of the
folks that was in the private beta post that they told LL what the
problems with the UI were and LL basically told them "Working as
Designed WILL NOT FIX" (meaning of course an acronym that rymes with a
certain amphibian know for having drugs in its skin). Will any Linden
that is not "invested" in the new UI please stand up and be counted
with the USERS.

THE NEW UI IS ~98% DRIVEN BY A SET OF XML FILES AND ASSETS
okay i will have to say that the backend of the new UI is Brilliant
and is a great chunk of code. Now the drunken apes that designed the
frontend must have had a "videowall" monitor for testing because just
about everybody that actually WORKS inside SL thinks its err "rubbish"
for anything serious.

FIRE THE NEXT LINDEN THAT DECIDES TO OUTSOURCE ANYTHING GRID FACING TO
A FIRM THAT DOES NOT ALREADY HAVE A PRESENCE IN WORLD.
Most of the mistakes with the new skin are things that would be found
in moments by somebody using secondlife on normal COTS equipment. And
another thing the ADA violations are bonehead stupid.

And now that that has been said while you are making things "easier"
for NEW users don't forget places like NCI do have one of your best
resources. EXISTING members that are very much willing to help new
users.

And lastly could somebody please create some sort of Skin SDK so that
the folks fixing YOUR errors have the resources to do things
"properly"

-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Building Snowglobe 2.0

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Jeff Eastman
 wrote:
> I'm new to this project and have been trying to build Snowglobe 2.0 on
> my Snow Leopard Mac. The download process went fairly smoothly until I
> got to actually running the XCode build. At that point I found many,
> many incorrect OS version dependencies (to OSX 10.4) that I had to fix
> one artifact at a time. As I believe the project structure was built by
> running develop.py I wonder if there is a global way to fix the OS
> dependency so that, the next time I update my source, I won't have to do
> the tedious editing by hand.
>
> Now I have a hard build failure attempting to open
> /linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/llplugin/slplugin/RelWithDebInfo/SLPlugin,
> which does not exist. Any ideas on what I've done wrong?

With XCode 3.2, as provided by Snow Leopard, you will find that
manually setting the compiler version to gcc 4.0 will make most of
your problems go away. (Project->Project Settings->Compiler
Version->GCC 4.0)

You do need the 10.4 sdk installed as well. That's an option when
running the XCode installer. I'm not sure it's part of the default.

For running from the debugger, it may help you to create ~/.gdbinit containing:
handle SIGUSR1 noprint nostop pass

If any of these were the missing piece for you, and if they weren't on
the wiki, please do help with any updates. If you still see bits
missing after reconfiguring and trying the above, there may be more to
fix. Let us know if that's the case too?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 10:59, Soft Linden wrote:
> Porting the desired parts of the old UI forward to 2.x would be a lot
> easier than porting ongoing 2.x features backward to 1.3. I wouldn't
> be surprised if you found there were just a couple dialogs you really
> wanted back. Bring the old communicate window back and embed the
> sidebar items in stand-alone floaters? You might even be able to get
> the latter part into Snowglobe if it's minimally invasive and done as
> a preference option.

The only thing that worries me about this approach is that there's a  
lot of fine-tuning in the UI details of the old interface, like the  
focus behavior of the chat bar, that seem to be hard to make work  
consistently moving forward without a lot of hacking... based on how  
easily it seems to be to break it. This isn't just a feature, it's an  
all-over behavior.

Here's things I consider pretty much key:

* chat bar focus
* chat bar size
* simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
* Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
* IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
* chat bar on chat floater
* No sidebar

What have I missed?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Building Snowglobe 2.0

[Martin Spernau]

Jeff,
I've more or less sucessfully built snowglobe 2 on Leopard 10.5  
recently, but haven't tried the current latest SVN

One thing I always need to set right after develop.py in XCode is the  
'Active SDK' from 10.4 to the only one I have installed, which is 10.5

Also, it seems that it only realy builds for me in Release configuartion
Another possible issue might be the version of gcc that your XCode  
uses. My XCode is 3.1.4, which uses gcc 4 ... I thinkl that later  
version of SCode come with higher gcc version - and those cause issues  
with the SLViewer code

Hope that helps.
-Martin

Am 12.03.2010 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Eastman:

> I'm new to this project and have been trying to build Snowglobe 2.0 on
> my Snow Leopard Mac. The download process went fairly smoothly until I
> got to actually running the XCode build. At that point I found many,
> many incorrect OS version dependencies (to OSX 10.4) that I had to fix
> one artifact at a time. As I believe the project structure was built  
> by
> running develop.py I wonder if there is a global way to fix the OS
> dependency so that, the next time I update my source, I won't have  
> to do
> the tedious editing by hand.
>
> Now I have a hard build failure attempting to open
> /linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/llplugin/slplugin/RelWithDebInfo/ 
> SLPlugin,
> which does not exist. Any ideas on what I've done wrong?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>   
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Ron Festa]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though personally I think the
sidebar could work if it was actually multiple smaller side bars that didn't
change the aspect ratio every time you opened vs one big one that changes
everything. After all I don't need access to my profile and other controls
when I'm just trying to check my friends list.

Ron Festa
Virtual Worlds Admin
Division of Continuing Studies at Rutgers University
PGP key: http://bit.ly/b1ZyhY
Phone: 732-474-8583


On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Argent Stonecutter <
secret.arg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2010-03-12, at 10:59, Soft Linden wrote:
> > Porting the desired parts of the old UI forward to 2.x would be a lot
> > easier than porting ongoing 2.x features backward to 1.3. I wouldn't
> > be surprised if you found there were just a couple dialogs you really
> > wanted back. Bring the old communicate window back and embed the
> > sidebar items in stand-alone floaters? You might even be able to get
> > the latter part into Snowglobe if it's minimally invasive and done as
> > a preference option.
>
> The only thing that worries me about this approach is that there's a
> lot of fine-tuning in the UI details of the old interface, like the
> focus behavior of the chat bar, that seem to be hard to make work
> consistently moving forward without a lot of hacking... based on how
> easily it seems to be to break it. This isn't just a feature, it's an
> all-over behavior.
>
> Here's things I consider pretty much key:
>
> * chat bar focus
> * chat bar size
> * simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
> * Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
> * IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
> * chat bar on chat floater
> * No sidebar
>
> What have I missed?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Morgaine]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Rob Nelson wrote:

> Sigh.
>
> I've tackled this in my viewer with a plugin, and yet no one seems
> interested in the plugin system I'm using;  Everyone's hellbent on
> binary plugins.
>


That is so totally not the case, Rob.

Virtually nobody other than Lindens are "hellbent on binary plugins", and
Lindens are doing so in secret in order not to have to justify themselves to
the community.  It's clear that they want a *fait accompli*. that we will
have no opportunity to influence, and then they will pretend that they are
good open source citizens by dumping the sources on us, too late to undo
their appallingly bad design choice.

Outside of Lindens and their business interests, nobody who is technical and
moderately sane and is not a sociopath is likely to support automatically
downloading *binaries* that then execute on your computer.  It's the height
of irresponsibility to create such a mechanism, in full knowledge that no
sandboxing is perfect and that therefore residents' computers will be
compromised by malicious people.  Even their fully-managed server-side
systems suffer exploits regularly --- the prospects for security disasters
in the far more varied client-side environment are immense.

The Lindens doing this are fully technically aware of the dangers, yet they
are still doing it.  It's totally unconscionable.  And I'm sure the botnet
operators are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect.  "Rock on
Lindens!"


Morgaine.




==

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Rob Nelson wrote:

> Sigh.
>
> I've tackled this in my viewer with a plugin, and yet no one seems
> interested in the plugin system I'm using;  Everyone's hellbent on
> binary plugins.  Feel free to use the code, I haven't added the GPL2
> headers yet.
>
>
> http://code.google.com/p/luna-viewer/source/browse/trunk/indra/newview/lua/Hooks/Windlight/_init_.lua
>
> Fred Rookstown
>
> On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 16:05 +, Opensource Obscure wrote:
> > Yesterday Jopsy Pendragon submitted this feature request
> > to the public JIRA:
> >
> > llSetAgentEnvironment( key agent, [ param list ] );
> > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5520
> >
> > I'd like to hear your comments.
> >
> > I'm not competent enough to say if the request is
> > feasible as it's proposed, but the proposed LSL
> > implementation would be fine for me.
> >
> > This complements other old PJIRA issues, like
> >
> > Estate / Sim Windlight preset / day cycle options
> > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677
> > (450 votes)
> >
> > and many others - see meta-issue
> > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2736
> >
> > Please provide feedback and vote as you feel appropriate.
> >
> > New, powerful Light/Shadows features are going to
> > appear into the official SL viewer;
> > the number of users with hardware capable of
> > running advanced lighting features grows;
> > so SL land owners need control over this, and IMHO
> > they will need it even more in the future.
> >
> >
> > bye
> > Opensource Obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Matt White]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Argent Stonecutter
 wrote:

(Sorry Argent, didn't mean to reply directly to you... resending this
to the whole list.)

> * chat bar focus
> * chat bar size
> * simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
> * Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
> * IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
> * chat bar on chat floater
> * No sidebar
>
> What have I missed?

Bring back the old profile window. When I have a few "interesting"
people in the sim I'll open up their profile and leave it minimized.
If/when I need to start filing ARs / estate banning / etc, the correct
spelling of their name is a simple copy/paste away.

During the "fog of war" my spelling often gets pretty poor.

--
Matt White / Bunny Halberd
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Matt White  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Argent Stonecutter
>  wrote:
>
>> * chat bar focus
>> * chat bar size
>> * simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
>> * Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
>> * IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
>> * chat bar on chat floater
>> * No sidebar
>>
>> What have I missed?
>
> Bring back the old profile window. When I have a few "interesting"
> people in the sim I'll open up their profile and leave it minimized.
> If/when I need to start filing ARs / estate banning / etc, the correct
> spelling of their name is a simple copy/paste away.

Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
I've exhausted the picks in the first.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Moriz Gupte]

just a simple thing, I guess, I now find transferring content to another
avatar in the friends list not so intuitive, involves extra steps and my
discoverability sense did not work in this case. Also something on the side
because this made me lose hours coding yesterday, changing the UI size
impacts visibility of LSL code. So spent some time trying to figure out why
brackets etc..from my LSL code was missing (actually they were there, but
not visible he he) anyway sorry for not posting on the jira apologize
for laziness and lack of time.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Soft Linden  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Matt White  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Argent Stonecutter
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> * chat bar focus
> >> * chat bar size
> >> * simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
> >> * Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
> >> * IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
> >> * chat bar on chat floater
> >> * No sidebar
> >>
> >> What have I missed?
> >
> > Bring back the old profile window. When I have a few "interesting"
> > people in the sim I'll open up their profile and leave it minimized.
> > If/when I need to start filing ARs / estate banning / etc, the correct
> > spelling of their name is a simple copy/paste away.
>
> Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> I've exhausted the picks in the first.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Matt White]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Soft Linden  wrote:

> Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> I've exhausted the picks in the first.

Oh heck no. I've been doing that for years. Same days I'll have a
bunch of minimized profiles along the bottom of my screen to keep
track of where I am and what's going on.

The little button to bring up a resident's partner was a great
addition too - if someone is a create creator, there's a good chance
their partner is too.


While we're discussing the profile window - as someone that roleplays
extensively in SL, having my real life window right next to my SL
profile is a total buzzkill. I *WANT* my SL and RL life to be
separate. I'm not quite sure why there's been such a focus on united
RL and SL identities... it's so backwards from the sprit of SL. Even
most of the employees of Linden Lab are known by pseudonyms!

--
Matt White
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Brent Tubbs]

>
>
> Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> I've exhausted the picks in the first.
>
> I do this *all the time* too, but half the time once I get around to
checking out the profiles I've minimized, I realized that I closed them all
in a frenzy of cleaning up my screen.  It makes me want to try to implement
some kind of "save for later" bucket into which I could drag profiles and
picks, then return to them during the same session.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Moriz Gupte]

' I'm not quite sure why there's been such a focus on united
RL and SL identities...' could if be that business applications require real
names as identities? I agree people should have the choice to call
themselves whatever they choose. And the interface should not be cluttered
with both pseudonyms and real names. An either or situation is better.
That way business application users are happy and role playing users are
happy. Simple.
R

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Matt White  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Soft Linden  wrote:
>
> > Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> > open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> > time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> > the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> > I've exhausted the picks in the first.
>
> Oh heck no. I've been doing that for years. Same days I'll have a
> bunch of minimized profiles along the bottom of my screen to keep
> track of where I am and what's going on.
>
> The little button to bring up a resident's partner was a great
> addition too - if someone is a create creator, there's a good chance
> their partner is too.
>
>
> While we're discussing the profile window - as someone that roleplays
> extensively in SL, having my real life window right next to my SL
> profile is a total buzzkill. I *WANT* my SL and RL life to be
> separate. I'm not quite sure why there's been such a focus on united
> RL and SL identities... it's so backwards from the sprit of SL. Even
> most of the employees of Linden Lab are known by pseudonyms!
>
> --
> Matt White
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University, PocatelloTel: 208-282-5333
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Morgaine]

The answer to all of these UI issues is simply client-side scripting.  Quite
literally anything and everything would be possible through user-controlled
extensions, far beyond the very low-powered UI features in Viewer2.0.  Both
novices and experts would have been catered for, as well as everyone in
between, simply because of the great flexibility of local scripts.

Instead of this, LL are working on a secret security minefield in their
internal Firefly project which can't provide this kind of flexibility, and
in the interim we have this unhelpful hardwired 2.0 UI being quite literally
forced on us --- if we don't adopt it, we'll be "signing up for an awfully
large chunk of porting work", to quote a Linden's own words.

LL's relationship with the open source community has really gone off the
rails recently.


Morgaine.








On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Matt White  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Argent Stonecutter
>  wrote:
>
> (Sorry Argent, didn't mean to reply directly to you... resending this
> to the whole list.)
>
> > * chat bar focus
> > * chat bar size
> > * simple chat overlay (single background element, no badges, etc)
> > * Location *on title bar* so you can get rid of the browser-style bars
> > * IMs in a window. REALY in a window.
> > * chat bar on chat floater
> > * No sidebar
> >
> > What have I missed?
>
> Bring back the old profile window. When I have a few "interesting"
> people in the sim I'll open up their profile and leave it minimized.
> If/when I need to start filing ARs / estate banning / etc, the correct
> spelling of their name is a simple copy/paste away.
>
> During the "fog of war" my spelling often gets pretty poor.
>
> --
> Matt White / Bunny Halberd
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Morgaine
 wrote:
>
> Virtually nobody other than Lindens are "hellbent on binary plugins", and
> Lindens are doing so in secret in order not to have to justify themselves to
> the community.

I don't know the details of this work. I do know that ascribing these
kinds of motives instead of asking "why" questions is a good way to
get yourself written off as a hurdle instead of a resource. That later
rhetoric about "sociopaths" and some of the earlier comments make it
clear that input is going to be unpleasant and ultimately
counterproductive. If you read back over your message, could you see
the outcome being a dev going out of the way to involve you in their
work?

Civil, objective discussion with well-backed positions would signal
that the community's going to be a resource that can make a Linden
more productive in his work. Where that's the case, they would be nuts
not to go to the list as soon as possible. But colored as the list has
been, I know I wouldn't even want to talk more than I had to about a
Snowglobe-specific change. It would just get in the way of getting
things done.

I'm pretty sure you've also sat in on Q's office hours more than once.
What did he say when you asked about plugin decisions there? I expect
he'd have answered with something other than psychopathy and
conspiracy.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Martin Spernau]

Am 12.03.2010 um 18:48 schrieb Matt White:
> While we're discussing the profile window - as someone that roleplays
> extensively in SL, having my real life window right next to my SL
> profile is a total buzzkill. I *WANT* my SL and RL life to be
> separate. I'm not quite sure why there's been such a focus on united
> RL and SL identities... it's so backwards from the sprit of SL.

Very agreed. If someone wants or needs to see my RL info, they can  
spare the extra click
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Carlo Wood]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:47:57AM -0800, Soft Linden wrote:
> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.

Last time I asked there was nothing being done about mesh.
There were no plans and certainly no code!

Are you telling us now that mesh "support" is going to be
done in secret too?

-- 
Carlo Wood 

PS "support" between quotes, because I can't take anything
   serious that is added in secret, without talking with
   your backbenchers first.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Carlo Wood]

Why "fix" this? What is the urge in using it at ALL?
Imho, ignoring it so much better.

How care that it exists, and is broken? Just don't use it!
Sorry, I really don't get why anyone here is trying to get
to compile it, trying to fix it, trying to run it, trying to use it.

Is there anything added to 2.0 code that actually is an
improvement over snowglobe 1.3 ?

Don't be fooled by the "2", yes 2 > 1 in mathematics, but
this just a different viewer. The version number is COMPLETELY
irrelevant. Hell, from now on I'm going to refer to it as 0.2.
Wake up!

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:21:29PM -0500, Robert Martin wrote:
> And lastly could somebody please create some sort of Skin SDK so that
> the folks fixing YOUR errors have the resources to do things
> "properly"

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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[opensource-dev] Reminder of posting etiquette

[Philippe (Merov) Bossut]

Hi all,

I'd like to remind everyone on the list about the opensource-dev posting
policies:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev

In particular, while constructive criticism is welcome, general complaints
which only serve to discourage use of Second Life or discourage cooperation
with Linden Lab should be taken elsewhere.

We endeavor to maintain a respectful tone in our communications, which we
imagine the vast majority of the more than 900 subscribers to this mailing
list appreciate.  Allowing other behaviors threatens our ability to continue
to provide this venue.

I'll be sending out private warnings to people who are running afoul of the
policies.  Additionally, moving forward, egregious violations will result in
immediate suspension.

If you have problems with this policy, email me personally and, please,
let's not start a meta-discussion about this subject on the mailing list.

Regards,
- Merov
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:47:57AM -0800, Soft Linden wrote:
>> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
>> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.
>
> Last time I asked there was nothing being done about mesh.
> There were no plans and certainly no code!

This was publicly demo'd at SLCC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swh6gY_dEH0

I don't know what's been announced since then and don't have a close
relationship with the graphics guys. I'd hit Runitai's office hours if
you want to know the current state of everything rendered.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Morgaine]

Soft, you misread what was written.

I carefully worded the sentence containing the word "sociopath" to exclude
Lindens --- please note my words "*Outside of Lindens and their business
interests*".  The word "sociopath" was aimed specifically at the botnet
operators and criminal organizations who exploit innocent people through
exploits on their PCs, and well as covering griefers.  I would hope that you
too consider at least the criminals as "sociopaths", as I do.

The parts that applied to Lindens were the paragraph before and the
paragraph after, and the line about responsibility.  I believe that the
company has business motives for doing what it is doing in secret, and that
it is willing to sacrifice open source principles and community involvement
to achieve those business goals.  That's all.

Pointing out the security dangers here is the responsible thing to do.  I
hope you agree with that as well, and would encourage all critical comments
about security.  Unfortunately you've tied our hands by making that project
internal and secret.


Morgaine.






==

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Soft Linden  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Morgaine
>  wrote:
> >
> > Virtually nobody other than Lindens are "hellbent on binary plugins", and
> > Lindens are doing so in secret in order not to have to justify themselves
> to
> > the community.
>
> I don't know the details of this work. I do know that ascribing these
> kinds of motives instead of asking "why" questions is a good way to
> get yourself written off as a hurdle instead of a resource. That later
> rhetoric about "sociopaths" and some of the earlier comments make it
> clear that input is going to be unpleasant and ultimately
> counterproductive. If you read back over your message, could you see
> the outcome being a dev going out of the way to involve you in their
> work?
>
> Civil, objective discussion with well-backed positions would signal
> that the community's going to be a resource that can make a Linden
> more productive in his work. Where that's the case, they would be nuts
> not to go to the list as soon as possible. But colored as the list has
> been, I know I wouldn't even want to talk more than I had to about a
> Snowglobe-specific change. It would just get in the way of getting
> things done.
>
> I'm pretty sure you've also sat in on Q's office hours more than once.
> What did he say when you asked about plugin decisions there? I expect
> he'd have answered with something other than psychopathy and
> conspiracy.
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Martin Spernau]

Am 12.03.2010 um 18:48 schrieb Brent Tubbs:
> Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> I've exhausted the picks in the first.
>
> I do this *all the time* too, but half the time once I get around to  
> checking out the profiles I've minimized, I realized that I closed  
> them all in a frenzy of cleaning up my screen.  It makes me want to  
> try to implement some kind of "save for later" bucket into which I  
> could drag profiles and picks, then return to them during the same  
> session.

This is one place where the browser anaolgy works: Profiles are URLs  
so we could have 'bookmarks'
A bit like a LM really, only for a profile - and while we are at it,  
for group profiles too
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[opensource-dev] llDialog and Viewer 2

[Martin Spernau]

In Viewer 2, llDialog and permission alerts etc are 'hidden' behind  
the Notifications... you don't instantly see them, only if you check  
your Notifications. In some case that might be 'nice' (Dialog Spam etc)
But when the user clicks on  an Object that responds with a Menu of  
choices... they won't see it, and might simply miss it - if they don't  
know or remember to check the little Notifications icon ^^

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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Carlo Wood]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:18:15AM -0500, Lear Cale wrote:
> I agree.  WL settings are about the appearance of the environment, not
> the GUI per se.
> And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be supported
> as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make a JIRA for that,
> Carlo?)

Welll... making jira's a bit like reporting theft of your bike to
the police. The police keeps saying they want it, but at some point
you stop doing it.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Morgaine
 wrote:
>
> I believe that the
> company has business motives for doing what it is doing in secret, and that
> it is willing to sacrifice open source principles and community involvement
> to achieve those business goals.  That's all.

We are willing to make some sacrifices.

This is a company with an open source project, not an open source
project with a company. If the community becomes obstructionist enough
to get in the way of business, the open source part will get throttled
back. If the community's being largely helpful, open source
involvement is advanced. I spoke up because this conversation was
looking a lot like something that could lead to throttling while
accomplishing nothing.

Nobody's asking you or anyone to sacrifice their personal best
interests in order to be involved in viewer work. That shouldn't be
expected of the company either. Nobody's taken any loyalty oaths (and
no, the contributor agreement doesn't count :).

A totally healthy open source project usually can be developed
completely in the open, and in a way that's aligned with everybody's
interests. But that takes an active commitment on all sides, both in
terms of composure, and in understanding each others' needs.

There have been some good arguments in this thread, though I think
they're probably lost to most of the people who could benefit by them
because of the volume and tone of the discussion. Consolidating those
into a list of pros and cons of each approach and taking a wiki link
to Q's office hours could be one way to turn the info into something
mutually beneficial. It's a short step from that to a calm discussion
about your wants and needs, versus the company's wants and needs, to
see if there's common ground to be had.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Freitag 12 März 2010 schrieb Carlo Wood:

> Is there anything added to 2.0 code that actually is an
> improvement over snowglobe 1.3 ?

tattoo layers and alpha layers, IMHO.
and that's already being backported :P
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 11:48, Matt White wrote:
> While we're discussing the profile window - as someone that roleplays
> extensively in SL, having my real life window right next to my SL
> profile is a total buzzkill. I *WANT* my SL and RL life to be
> separate. I'm not quite sure why there's been such a focus on united
> RL and SL identities... it's so backwards from the sprit of SL. Even
> most of the employees of Linden Lab are known by pseudonyms!

Yeh, that. I think I've looked at five or six "First Life" tabs ever,  
and most by accident.

Having RL shoved in my face makes me not want to open people's profiles.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-12, at 11:57, Morgaine wrote:
> The answer to all of these UI issues is simply client-side scripting.

That's AN answer. It's not the RIGHT answer (at least not to THIS  
question, it's the right answer to a bunch of other questions, just  
not this one), but it's certainly AN answer.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way f orward?

[Opensource Obscure]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:48:58 -0800, Brent Tubbs 
wrote:
>>

>> I do this *all the time* too, but half the time once I get around to
> checking out the profiles I've minimized, I realized that I closed them
all
> in a frenzy of cleaning up my screen.  It makes me want to try to
implement
> some kind of "save for later" bucket into which I could drag profiles
and
> picks, then return to them during the same session.

I would have liked that - actually, what I needed with the old interface
was a "minimize / restore all floaters" toggle button; all floaters,
not only profile ones - that would have been really useful to me.

Opensource Obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Boroondas Gupte]

On 03/12/2010 07:37 PM, Carlo Wood wrote:
> Is there anything added to 2.0 code that actually is an
> improvement over snowglobe 1.3 ?
>   
X11-like copy-paste (by selecting and middle mouse button)
:-)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Jonathan Irvin]

Keep in mind, this is still in beta.  If you have an issue in the main
viewer, use snowglobe.  If you have an issue with snowglobe, code it
yourself.  If you can't code it yourself, then there's no need to blame
Linden Labs for it.

Being in SL for 5 years has enlightened me to the fact that some people
enjoy being miserable and broadcasting their misery to others.

SL gets the job done for what it is.  If you don't think so, uninstall the
client and go about your life.  You don't need to throw your woes at others
the same way monkeys fling feces.

I think M Linden is exactly what LL needs.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE
fan of what Philip brought to the table with his visions.  M Linden is good
in the sense that he is focused on making SL a better place for new and old
users alike.

LL has made great strides with what they have had to work with in the past 2
years.  And they are taking it one step at a time.  I'm ok with that.
Viewer 2 is awesome, I suspect it will be even more awesome in the coming
year.  The new stuff they are implementing in the server code is awesome as
well.  ***Keep giving us more functions in LSL***

I would also like LSL to be more OO-centric.  OOP in LSL would be awesome.
Also, I would love a llInclude(), llRequireOnce(), etc functions so we can
implement libraries and classes into our objects.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 14:00, Argent Stonecutter
wrote:

> On 2010-03-12, at 11:57, Morgaine wrote:
> > The answer to all of these UI issues is simply client-side scripting.
>
> That's AN answer. It's not the RIGHT answer (at least not to THIS
> question, it's the right answer to a bunch of other questions, just
> not this one), but it's certainly AN answer.
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Vex Streeter]

Soft Linden wrote:
> Ha - I'm not the only one who does this? I'm forever leaving profiles
> open and minimized when checking out places in resis' picks. Half the
> time I find an interesting object during a visit, want to check out
> the creator's picks, and end up adding another window or two before
> I've exhausted the picks in the first.
>   
Hah - I've assumed that everyone does this!  I've always wondered why 
profiles can't be converted to calling cards - it would be great to have 
a folder full of interesting people to look up.  Similarly, there seem 
to be a number of places where you have the option of tping to a 
location, but not {map, slurl, LM}ing it.  If we're going to keep the 
browser metaphor, it would be nice to have the equivalent of "bookmark 
whatever I'm pointing to" as well as "bookmark here".

-Vex
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[k\o\w]

Check out the LSL preprocessor in Emerald Viewer
http://www.modularsystems.sl/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=lslPreprocessor

On 3/12/2010 3:40 PM, Jonathan Irvin wrote:
Keep in mind, this is still in beta.  If you have an issue in the main 
viewer, use snowglobe.  If you have an issue with snowglobe, code it 
yourself.  If you can't code it yourself, then there's no need to 
blame Linden Labs for it.
Being in SL for 5 years has enlightened me to the fact that some 
people enjoy being miserable and broadcasting their misery to others.
SL gets the job done for what it is.  If you don't think so, uninstall 
the client and go about your life.  You don't need to throw your woes 
at others the same way monkeys fling feces.
I think M Linden is exactly what LL needs.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a 
HUGE fan of what Philip brought to the table with his visions.  M 
Linden is good in the sense that he is focused on making SL a better 
place for new and old users alike.
LL has made great strides with what they have had to work with in the 
past 2 years.  And they are taking it one step at a time.  I'm ok with 
that.  Viewer 2 is awesome, I suspect it will be even more awesome in 
the coming year.  The new stuff they are implementing in the server 
code is awesome as well.  ***Keep giving us more functions in LSL***
I would also like LSL to be more OO-centric.  OOP in LSL would be 
awesome.  Also, I would love a llInclude(), llRequireOnce(), etc 
functions so we can implement libraries and classes into our objects.


On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 14:00, Argent Stonecutter 
mailto:secret.arg...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On 2010-03-12, at 11:57, Morgaine wrote:
> The answer to all of these UI issues is simply client-side
scripting.

That's AN answer. It's not the RIGHT answer (at least not to THIS
question, it's the right answer to a bunch of other questions, just
not this one), but it's certainly AN answer.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way f orward?

[Opensource Obscure]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:40:52 -0800, Soft Linden 
wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:47:57AM -0800, Soft Linden wrote:
>>> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
>>> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.
>>
>> Last time I asked there was nothing being done about mesh.
>> There were no plans and certainly no code!
> 
> This was publicly demo'd at SLCC:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swh6gY_dEH0

it was also recently confirmed at SL PRO
http://web.nmc.org/files/2010-slpro/t-linden-chat.html

> I don't know what's been announced since then and don't have a close
> relationship with the graphics guys. I'd hit Runitai's office hours if
> you want to know the current state of everything rendered.

Is Runitai actually holding office hours? It seems not:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_hours
I'd like to participate. May some Linden please ping Runitai?

Viewer2 already includes a new UI feature to set projections,
and it's working, so it's not even a 'secret' feature anymore:
it would be cool to hear something about it, even if you (LL)
didn't officially "launch" this feature yet.

With regard to upcoming, but not-yet implemented feature
as meshes import, I'm assuming that its development model
is going to follow current and future LL's approach - that is
1. design and develop internally/secretely, 2. launch the
feature, 3. release code. 
Does this make sense?


opensource obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] Building Snowglobe 2.0

[Soft Linden]

Awesome. Thanks for updating docs!

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Jeff Eastman
 wrote:
> Thanks Soft (and thanks also to Martin),
>
> I had to reinstall XCode to get the 10.4 OS files but that and changing the
> gcc to use 4.0 has solved my problem. Snowglobe built fine and is running.
> Now I have a mountain of code to discover.
>
> Per your request, I have updated the wiki section on "What to do if it
> doesn't work for you" to include these environment checks.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Soft Linden wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Jeff Eastman
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm new to this project and have been trying to build Snowglobe 2.0 on
>>> my Snow Leopard Mac. The download process went fairly smoothly until I
>>> got to actually running the XCode build. At that point I found many,
>>> many incorrect OS version dependencies (to OSX 10.4) that I had to fix
>>> one artifact at a time. As I believe the project structure was built by
>>> running develop.py I wonder if there is a global way to fix the OS
>>> dependency so that, the next time I update my source, I won't have to do
>>> the tedious editing by hand.
>>>
>>> Now I have a hard build failure attempting to open
>>>
>>> /linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/llplugin/slplugin/RelWithDebInfo/SLPlugin,
>>> which does not exist. Any ideas on what I've done wrong?
>>>
>>
>> With XCode 3.2, as provided by Snow Leopard, you will find that
>> manually setting the compiler version to gcc 4.0 will make most of
>> your problems go away. (Project->Project Settings->Compiler
>> Version->GCC 4.0)
>>
>> You do need the 10.4 sdk installed as well. That's an option when
>> running the XCode installer. I'm not sure it's part of the default.
>>
>> For running from the debugger, it may help you to create ~/.gdbinit
>> containing:
>> handle SIGUSR1 noprint nostop pass
>>
>> If any of these were the missing piece for you, and if they weren't on
>> the wiki, please do help with any updates. If you still see bits
>> missing after reconfiguring and trying the above, there may be more to
>> fix. Let us know if that's the case too?
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Building Snowglobe 2.0

[Martin Spernau]

>> I had to reinstall XCode to get the 10.4 OS files but that and  
>> changing the
>> gcc to use 4.0 has solved my problem. Snowglobe built fine and is  
>> running.
>> Now I have a mountain of code to discover.


YAY Jeff

Actually I can very well build without the 10.4 SDK, I just need to  
make sure I set the Active SDK' to 10.5 (it defaults to 10.4)
I'm assuming that my build might not run on a Tiger 10.4 OS X install,  
haven't tested that
-Martin

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[opensource-dev] "Bookmark" other residents

[Boroondas Gupte]

On 03/12/2010 07:49 PM, Martin Spernau wrote:
> A bit like a LM really, only for a profile
This sounds suspiciously like calling cards. Maybe we should allow to
create them by other

ways  than only by giving
your own to someone?

Speaking of Landmarks, I'd like a way to convert SLURLs to Landmarks
 without visiting the
target/destination place.

cheers
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Opensource Obscure]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:18:15 -0500, Lear Cale  wrote:
> I agree.  WL settings are about the appearance of the environment, not
> the GUI per se.
> And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be supported
> as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make a JIRA for that,
> Carlo?)

WindLight: Skies and days as tradable assets
Created: 14/Dec/07
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1068

also see:

Meta-Issue: The Windlight Project is unfinished.
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2736

Estate / Sim Windlight preset / day cycle options
(recently commented)
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677
Votes:  456

opensource obscure
--
LOL(12,34,56)
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Re: [opensource-dev] "Bookmark" other residents

[Robert Martin]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Boroondas Gupte
 wrote:
> On 03/12/2010 07:49 PM, Martin Spernau wrote:
>
> A bit like a LM really, only for a profile
>
> This sounds suspiciously like calling cards. Maybe we should allow to create
> them by other ways than only by giving your own to someone?
>
> Speaking of Landmarks, I'd like a way to convert SLURLs to Landmarks without
> visiting the target/destination place.
>
if you don't mind the bit of hijack this could hook into a general
inventory export system also. Linden Labs needs to either develope or
"bless" some sort of import/export format


-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Maya Remblai]

Martin Spernau wrote:
> My feeling is that it would make the most sense to add a 'old style  
> UI' as option to Snowglobe 2, along with the ability to turn off all  
> unwanted new features (media on prim etc)
> -Martin
>   
I agree with this. 2.0 DOES have some useful functions, and not just new 
features like the alpha mask and tattoo layers. It's just that the UI 
isn't one of them. I'm all for people using it if they like it better, 
but don't shove it down the throats of us oldbies who don't need our 
hands held while we access our inventory. Besides being a bad idea 
business wise by annoying current users, it's also dangerous, as has 
been pointed out over and over again. I'm not epileptic, but I still 
can't use the 2.0 UI for health reasons. The tweaks on the wiki aren't 
enough, though they do allow me to use the viewer for a few minutes.

I'm putting my support behind backporting, but I would also like to see 
the classic UI ported to a 2.0 base.

Maya
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Opensource Obscure  wrote:
>
> Is Runitai actually holding office hours? It seems not:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_hours
> I'd like to participate. May some Linden please ping Runitai?

I thought he was. I know that page is often out of date, so I'll fire
off an email to ask.


> With regard to upcoming, but not-yet implemented feature
> as meshes import, I'm assuming that its development model
> is going to follow current and future LL's approach - that is
> 1. design and develop internally/secretely, 2. launch the
> feature, 3. release code.
> Does this make sense?

Some things will happen in the dark, but the current plan is *not* to
do another monolithic Viewer 2 quiet cycle. We want to get
intermittent code dropping regularly again - expect to hear more on
that soon. Once that's covered, I know some teams are actively
campaigning to get their source out regularly again, and that the
graphics guys are in that camp. The company might think other features
are better held. I don't know all the reasons there, but I can see
where some early announcements haven't helped anyone. AO was one good
example. Look back on the amount of damaging FUD about AO and LL, as
well as the constant harassment of Lindens before it was finalized,
and then look at its real impact on resis' daily lives...? One could
write a book on that gap. I'd bet that kind of response is going to be
raised as a counterpoint to open development* at the Lab for years.



* Open development, as opposed to open source - open participation
during the development phase, versus code landing when binaries land
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Re: [opensource-dev] "Bookmark" other residents

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Boroondas Gupte
 wrote:
> On 03/12/2010 07:49 PM, Martin Spernau wrote:
>
> A bit like a LM really, only for a profile
>
> This sounds suspiciously like calling cards. Maybe we should allow to create
> them by other ways than only by giving your own to someone?
>
> Speaking of Landmarks, I'd like a way to convert SLURLs to Landmarks without
> visiting the target/destination place.

I think these are both planned, after ensuring that the resulting
calling cards don't reveal online status for non-friends.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Nurturing an open source community; was: Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Mike Monkowski]

Soft,

It is not clear whether Linden Lab wants an open source community.  The 
impression from this side is that Linden wants help fixing bugs, but not 
fixing features, but if that requires importing a feature or two, then 
it's worth the trouble.

It is also quite clear that Linden does not want any help in design. 
The user experience office hours haven't been hosted by Lindens for more 
than a year now and Lindens rarely attend the extension of those 
meetings now being run by residents, particularly Jacek Antonelli. 
(Thank you Jacek.  I'd nominate you for a Hippo Award if Linden still 
gave Hippo Awards.)

You spoke of "understanding each other's needs."  I would wager that 
there is a near unanimous view in the community that Linden does not 
understand the needs of an open source community.  Certainly threats of 
"throttling" are not among them.  Lindens usually speak as if the 
failure to understand is entirely on the side of the contributors, and 
Lindens are not at all at fault.

You say "a totally healthy open source project usually can be developed 
completely in the open," but this project has never been developed 
completely in the open, and the trend is strongly toward closed development.

If we understood how we were being "obstructionist" and "in the way of 
business," then a conversation could develop.  I, personally, don't know 
what you are referring to.

At the moment, the SL open source community is very close to taking the 
1.23.5 code, pulling in a few features from 2.0, and permanently forking 
from the standard viewer.  I don't think that's good for anyone.

Mike

Soft Linden wrote:
> This is a company with an open source project, not an open source
> project with a company. If the community becomes obstructionist enough
> to get in the way of business, the open source part will get throttled
> back. If the community's being largely helpful, open source
> involvement is advanced. I spoke up because this conversation was
> looking a lot like something that could lead to throttling while
> accomplishing nothing.
>...
> A totally healthy open source project usually can be developed
> completely in the open, and in a way that's aligned with everybody's
> interests. But that takes an active commitment on all sides, both in
> terms of composure, and in understanding each others' needs.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Armin Weatherwax]

Boroondas Gupte schrieb:
> On 03/12/2010 07:37 PM, Carlo Wood wrote:
> > Is there anything added to 2.0 code that actually is an
> > improvement over snowglobe 1.3 ?
>
> X11-like copy-paste (by selecting and middle mouse button)

but it's partially broken in viewer0.2. Also 90% of the code is already 
in SG1.3 since SNOW-222 was applied, if you are interested I search the 
patch that adds the missing 10% to SG1.3 ... er ... and of course it's 
also in Imprudence for a little while already :)
 
Armin
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Re: [opensource-dev] "Bookmark" other residents

[Brent Tubbs]

>  This sounds suspiciously like calling cards. Maybe we should allow to
> create them by 
> other
> ways  than only by giving your
> own to someone?
>
>
While I agree that this would look a lot like calling cards under the hood,
I'm not too keen on the UI implementation of having yet another inventory
folder full of old junk I never get around to looking at.  I'm thinking of
more like an ordered, drag/drop to-do list, into which you could drop LMs,
picks, profiles, notecards, or even offline IMs.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Armin Weatherwax]

Soft Linden schrieb:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:47:57AM -0800, Soft Linden wrote:
> >> With larger features like mesh coming along, know that you'll be
> >> signing up for an awfully large chunk of porting work though.
> >
> > Last time I asked there was nothing being done about mesh.
> > There were no plans and certainly no code!
>
> This was publicly demo'd at SLCC:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swh6gY_dEH0
>
> I don't know what's been announced since then and don't have a close
> relationship with the graphics guys. I'd hit Runitai's office hours
> if you want to know the current state of everything rendered.

e.g. that:
 
SLDev Mailing List  "Kent Quirk (Q Linden)" 
 wrote On Jan 14, 2010, at 06:55:

On Jan 13, 2010, at 11:42 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote:

> There are other important questions to ask about SL 2.0.
> 
> Will the mesh implementation... 

NO.

I don't know how the mesh rumor got started, but it's already been 
stated in this thread that 2.0 will NOT include mesh support. All the 
questions are interesting, but they don't apply yet.

> 
> If LL's history is any indication, SL 2.0 will just assume by default
> that everyone has a 50 megabit Internet connection, and if you have a
> mere 256 kbit you are not going to be able to do much of anything.
> (Where's the official support for an organizational-level proxied
> asset/texture cache? I've pretty much given up hope that LL will ever
> care about its limited-bandwifth users with a huge number of people on
> a limited pipe, like at schools.)

Well, I'd like it if you wouldn't give up hope. It's a hard problem, and 
you're not likely to see much change in viewer 2.0. But with the advent 
of lighter-weight computing devices at all levels, we do have to evolve 
a more bandwidth-flexible set of protocols, and it's an issue that has 
become a regular part of our thinking as we consider the future.

Q
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Latif Khalifa]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:33 PM, Soft Linden  wrote:
> Some things will happen in the dark, but the current plan is *not* to
> do another monolithic Viewer 2 quiet cycle. We want to get
> intermittent code dropping regularly again - expect to hear more on
> that soon. Once that's covered, I know some teams are actively
> campaigning to get their source out regularly again, and that the
> graphics guys are in that camp. The company might think other features
> are better held. I don't know all the reasons there, but I can see
> where some early announcements haven't helped anyone. AO was one good
> example. Look back on the amount of damaging FUD about AO and LL, as
> well as the constant harassment of Lindens before it was finalized,
> and then look at its real impact on resis' daily lives...? One could
> write a book on that gap. I'd bet that kind of response is going to be
> raised as a counterpoint to open development* at the Lab for years.

Soft, while I agree that there has been a lot of FUD and trolling
recently on opensource-dev, and that we could all use more
constructive attitude, I think that you picked a very bad example for
a bad experiences LL had with open development model. First of all the
Adult Content changes (lets called them AC not to confuse it with
animation overriders) had very little to to with actual development,
and everything to do with the policy. There was no FUD or harassment
of Lindens based on something that was SVN synced in the public
repository. And that policy change had to be pre-announced anyway to
get people ready to be moved from their parcels on the mainland etc.
It could not have been done from one day to the next in any case. I'll
not go into the details of AC policy's  impact on residents, that's a
whole different discussion (for me and my friends, the impact was
big).

Moving forward, I can see a lot of encouraging signs. Merov doing the
necessary work to get the external SVN sync working again. We can all
look forward to interesting and amazing new viewer mashups, such as
that Kirsten provided combining render pipeline (shadow) branch with
snowglobe and others. At least that part of confusion and
misunderstanding is over. What would be particularly beneficial for LL
if there was some sort of mechanism for merging SG patches back to the
main viewer trunk. That way you get the benefits of excellent work OS
devs have put into fixing bugs in SG. Plus you encourage the OS devs
to provide even more great work (I know many of them felt disappointed
to see that you could crash viewer2 in many ways that were fixed in
SG).

I'm hoping that we get robla's replacement soon, who could facilitate
such two-way and mutually beneficial flow of fixes and new features.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Howard Look]

On Mar 12, 2010, at 3:28 PM, Latif Khalifa wrote:
> I'm hoping that we get robla's replacement soon, who could facilitate
> such two-way and mutually beneficial flow of fixes and new features.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately we just lost a great candidate that I was 
hopeful we would close. If anyone on this list has a lead to a great candidate 
to help manage our open source efforts, please have them contact me directly.

Thanks!
Howard

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Soft Linden]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Latif Khalifa  wrote:
> What would be particularly beneficial for LL
> if there was some sort of mechanism for merging SG patches back to the
> main viewer trunk. That way you get the benefits of excellent work OS
> devs have put into fixing bugs in SG. Plus you encourage the OS devs
> to provide even more great work (I know many of them felt disappointed
> to see that you could crash viewer2 in many ways that were fixed in
> SG).

This is going to be a *lot* easier once devs split the server and
viewer code apart so these can reside in separate repositories. With
mercurial for source control and a cleanly split project, any of
continuous updates, full commit history, and frequent merging will be
practically free.

The open source team definitely understands this need. The big,
disruptive reorganization for the split is the difficult part right
now. We're all on mercurial internally as of a few weeks ago, which is
going to make the rest easier once viewer 2 merges back to trunk.

Right now, there's a lot of processing (you wouldn't believe the
scripts) to generate the open source drops without server bits mixed
in. That's not conducive to bidirectional merging.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments aboutllSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Marcelles Dreamscape]

I think that would be neat to make WL settings an inventory item that you
could share with others

-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Kitty
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:11 AM
To: 'Lear Cale'
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments
aboutllSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

> And Carlo has a great suggestion that WL settings should be 
> supported as inventory items, similar to LMs.  (Going to make 
> a JIRA for that, Carlo?)

That was supposed to be the idea all along:

"SHAREABLE settings! Since SL is a social world, we think you'll agree it'd
be great - and time-saving - to swap skies and related settings. Imagine
coming up with a gloriously surreal sweep straight out of Koyaanisqatsi and
Baraka's love-child and wanting to show it off, like you can with other
inventory item types." (May 2007)

"In the future, we plan to allow estate owners and managers to change them,
as a dramatic evolution of the current dayphase controls found in World menu
> Region/Estate > Estate tab." (May 2007)

"There is more exciting work planned for WindLight, including estate
controls for custom skies/water and making skies/water available as
tradeable inventory items. Stay tuned for more info." (November 2007)

Then Windlight became the "main viewer" in April 2008 and I don't think
we've heard about it since (including any of the other planned improvements
like clouds casting shadows on the terrain, lunar cycles, post-processing
effects and a better cloud simulator).

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[opensource-dev] Keyboard handling code

[Lilly]

Hi,

While trying to fix http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2232 I've found that 
the whole keyboard handling code is totally borked.

It has been designed with a QUERTY keyboard layout in mind, and there's no 
simple way to separate _symbolic_ shortcuts from _positional_ shortcuts.

I've wrote a quick n' dirty hack (hey, my first time with Carbon API), but it 
doesn't really solves the problem. Handlers expect a symbol, so my hack *at 
least* corrects the symbols mapping. What happens when the expected symbol is 
not on the keyboard ? Shortcuts like Cmd-. break on AZERTY, the equivalent 
would be Cmd-Shift-; . Also, moving with ZSQD (AZERTY's equivalent for WSAD) is 
broken too, because the code expects symbols while those shortcuts are clearly 
positional (ie the position of the keys are more important than their symbolic 
value).

The idea would be to get *rid* of the keyboard mapping, as both virtual key 
code & unicode character value can be read from the event handler. Then, 
instead of passing a character we could use a structure with both key code & 
unicode symbol. Handler would then pick what it need.

Other positional shortcuts are all the Ctrl-1 ... Ctrl-0 (or Cmd) family. The 
equivalent symbols on AZERTY keyboards are Ctrl-&, Ctrl-é, ... Clearly, the 
position of the key is much more important than its value.

Lilly
pixelgi...@gmail.com



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[opensource-dev] Updated llqtwebkit instruction and code

[Philippe (Merov) Bossut]

Hi,

As mentioned during the Hippo meeting, we've been working to improve the
llqtwebkit project support with an updated hg repo and better build
instructions. The folks at Linden have been completing this work today and
the updated wiki is now available:
   https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LLQtWebKit

Note that the "tip" is Snowglobe 2.0 ready but there's still a "branch"
named "snowglobe-1.3-release" that points to the Snowglobe 1.x compatible
version of the code (look under the "branches" link on bitbucket near the
top of the page)

Cheers,
- Merov
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Re: [opensource-dev] Nurturing an open source community; was: Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Morgaine]

I believe that Linden Lab is quite clear that it wants an open source
community.  I also believe that, unfortunately, it does not quite realize
that when the Lab and the community become partners in an open source
project, that there are strings attached.

Morgaine.



==

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Mike Monkowski
wrote:

> Soft,
>
> It is not clear whether Linden Lab wants an open source community.  The
> impression from this side is that Linden wants help fixing bugs, but not
> fixing features, but if that requires importing a feature or two, then
> it's worth the trouble.
>
> It is also quite clear that Linden does not want any help in design.
> The user experience office hours haven't been hosted by Lindens for more
> than a year now and Lindens rarely attend the extension of those
> meetings now being run by residents, particularly Jacek Antonelli.
> (Thank you Jacek.  I'd nominate you for a Hippo Award if Linden still
> gave Hippo Awards.)
>
> You spoke of "understanding each other's needs."  I would wager that
> there is a near unanimous view in the community that Linden does not
> understand the needs of an open source community.  Certainly threats of
> "throttling" are not among them.  Lindens usually speak as if the
> failure to understand is entirely on the side of the contributors, and
> Lindens are not at all at fault.
>
> You say "a totally healthy open source project usually can be developed
> completely in the open," but this project has never been developed
> completely in the open, and the trend is strongly toward closed
> development.
>
> If we understood how we were being "obstructionist" and "in the way of
> business," then a conversation could develop.  I, personally, don't know
> what you are referring to.
>
> At the moment, the SL open source community is very close to taking the
> 1.23.5 code, pulling in a few features from 2.0, and permanently forking
> from the standard viewer.  I don't think that's good for anyone.
>
> Mike
>
> Soft Linden wrote:
> > This is a company with an open source project, not an open source
> > project with a company. If the community becomes obstructionist enough
> > to get in the way of business, the open source part will get throttled
> > back. If the community's being largely helpful, open source
> > involvement is advanced. I spoke up because this conversation was
> > looking a lot like something that could lead to throttling while
> > accomplishing nothing.
> >...
> > A totally healthy open source project usually can be developed
> > completely in the open, and in a way that's aligned with everybody's
> > interests. But that takes an active commitment on all sides, both in
> > terms of composure, and in understanding each others' needs.
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[opensource-dev] Fwd: Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) 
Date: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about
llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520
To: Soft Linden 


On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Soft Linden  wrote:

> A totally healthy open source project usually can be developed
> completely in the open, and in a way that's aligned with everybody's
> interests. But that takes an active commitment on all sides...

True enough. But I think there's widespread perception that the Second
Life Viewer is already  not a "totally healthy open-source project",
and I don't think that perception can't be laid at the door of
"obstructionism". As has been demonstrated, Linden Research is
perfectly capable of technically doing whatever it wants with the code
that it does in fact own almost completely without involvement from
those outside the company...so there's very little "obstructionism"
possible .

Is Linden Research's rapidly growing secrecy about what they intend
with the viewer a strategy to thwart "obstructionism"? (Because I'd
understood it was being justified on the basis of "competition", so
this is a new spin to me.)

If that's the case, are you threating even less cooperation with the
open source project unless people stop "obstructing" by becoming
cheerleaders for an agenda that you haven't even disclosed? Can you
actually ask people to sign on to something without telling them what
that something is?
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