Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Victor Lowther wrote: Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? As before I'm uncertain. Discovery is a troublesome term, but too many people use and recognize it, while IMO introspecting is much less common. So count me as -0 on this. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com mailto:sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Hi All, Based on the discussions, I have filed a blue print that initiates discovery of node hardware details given its credentials at chassis level. I am in the process of creating a spec for it. Do share your thoughts regarding this - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ironic/+spec/chassis-level-node-discovery Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Dmitry Tantsur [mailto:dtant...@redhat.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 2:20 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Victor Lowther wrote: Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? As before I'm uncertain. Discovery is a troublesome term, but too many people use and recognize it, while IMO introspecting is much less common. So count me as -0 on this. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com mailto:sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Hi On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi All, Based on the discussions, I have filed a blue print that initiates discovery of node hardware details given its credentials at chassis level. I am in the process of creating a spec for it. Do share your thoughts regarding this - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ironic/+spec/chassis-level-node-discovery Thanks Sandhya for the spec. But I prefer if people DO NOT share their thoughts in this thread, it's out of topic. What we are trying to sort out here is whether we should use the term discover for the approach of finding out the physical characteristics of an already registered Node in Ironic, or we should call it something else like introspection or interrogation and leave the discover term only for the approach of discovering nodes that are not registered in Ironic yet. Implementations details like your blueprint is suggesting whether make it at Chassis level or Node level or both should go in another thread. Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Dmitry Tantsur [mailto:dtant...@redhat.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 2:20 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Victor Lowther wrote: Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? As before I'm uncertain. Discovery is a troublesome term, but too many people use and recognize it, while IMO introspecting is much less common. So count me as -0 on this. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com mailto:sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On 11/13/2014 12:27 PM, Ganapathy, Sandhya wrote: Hi All, Based on the discussions, I have filed a blue print that initiates discovery of node hardware details given its credentials at chassis level. I am in the process of creating a spec for it. Do share your thoughts regarding this - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ironic/+spec/chassis-level-node-discovery Hi and thank you for the suggestion. As already said, this thread is not the best place to discuss it, so please file a (short version of) spec, so that we can comment on it. Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Dmitry Tantsur [mailto:dtant...@redhat.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 2:20 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Victor Lowther wrote: Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? As before I'm uncertain. Discovery is a troublesome term, but too many people use and recognize it, while IMO introspecting is much less common. So count me as -0 on this. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com mailto:sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Just for reference, the spec is this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133828/ That's a good point, I think it's important to have this distinction of a new node being discovered and a registered node being introspected/interrogated. So I'm +1 for the idea. On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Victor Lowther victor.lowt...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm... with this thread in mind, anyone think that changing DISCOVERING to INTROSPECTING in the new state machine spec is a good idea? On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Ganapathy, Sandhya sandhya.ganapa...@hp.com wrote: Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Hi all, Following the mail thread on disambiguating the term 'discovery' - In the lines of what Devananda had stated, Hardware Introspection also means retrieving and storing hardware details of the node whose credentials and IP Address are known to the system. (Correct me if I am wrong). I am currently in the process of extracting hardware details (cpu, memory etc..) of n no. of nodes belonging to a Chassis whose credentials are already known to ironic. Does this process fall in the category of hardware introspection? Thanks, Sandhya. -Original Message- From: Devananda van der Veen [mailto:devananda@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:41 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 6:29 PM, Stuart Fox stu...@demonware.net wrote: Having written/worked on a few DC automation tools, Ive typically broken down the process of getting unknown hardware into production in to 4 distinct stages. 1) Discovery (The discovery of unknown hardware) 2) Normalising (Push initial configs like drac/imm/ilo settings, flashing to known good firmware etc etc) 3) Analysis (Figure out what the hardware is and what its constituent parts are cpu/ram/disk/IO caps/serial numbers etc) 4) Burnin (run linpack or equiv tests for 24hrs) At the end of stage 4 the hardware should be ready for provisioning. Oh, thanks for that, I quite like this separation. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On 10/21/2014 02:11 AM, Devananda van der Veen wrote: Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. I generally agree with this separation, though it brings some troubles to me, as I'm used to calling discovery what you called introspection (it was not the case this summer, but now I changed my mind). And the term discovery is baked into the.. hmm.. introspection service that I've written [1]. So I would personally prefer to leave discovery as in discovery of hardware properties, though I realize that introspection may be a better name. [1] https://github.com/Divius/ironic-discoverd Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
+1 for the separation I already gave up of the term discovery as you can see on the DRAC Hardware Introspection[1] spec, I also don't think that introspection is the best word for that (we already use the world cloud for OpenStack so it can't get more confusing than that). Perhaps interrogation would be another term for that. [1] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125920 Cheers, Lucas On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Dmitry Tantsur dtant...@redhat.com wrote: On 10/21/2014 02:11 AM, Devananda van der Veen wrote: Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. I generally agree with this separation, though it brings some troubles to me, as I'm used to calling discovery what you called introspection (it was not the case this summer, but now I changed my mind). And the term discovery is baked into the.. hmm.. introspection service that I've written [1]. So I would personally prefer to leave discovery as in discovery of hardware properties, though I realize that introspection may be a better name. [1] https://github.com/Divius/ironic-discoverd Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
I agree with Devananda's definition of Œhardware discovery¹ and other tools similar to Ironic use the term discovery in this way, however I have found that these other tools often bundle the gathering of the system properties together with the discovery of the hardware as a single step from a user perspective. I also agree that in Ironic there needs to be a separate term for that (at least from a dev perspective) and I think Lucas¹s suggestion of Œhardware interrogation¹ or something like Œhardware inventory¹ would be more explanatory at first glance than Œintrospection¹. - Sam On 21/10/2014 09:52, Lucas Alvares Gomes lucasago...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for the separation I already gave up of the term discovery as you can see on the DRAC Hardware Introspection[1] spec, I also don't think that introspection is the best word for that (we already use the world cloud for OpenStack so it can't get more confusing than that). Perhaps interrogation would be another term for that. [1] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125920 Cheers, Lucas On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Dmitry Tantsur dtant...@redhat.com wrote: On 10/21/2014 02:11 AM, Devananda van der Veen wrote: Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. I generally agree with this separation, though it brings some troubles to me, as I'm used to calling discovery what you called introspection (it was not the case this summer, but now I changed my mind). And the term discovery is baked into the.. hmm.. introspection service that I've written [1]. So I would personally prefer to leave discovery as in discovery of hardware properties, though I realize that introspection may be a better name. [1] https://github.com/Divius/ironic-discoverd Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Sam Betts (sambetts) sambe...@cisco.com wrote: I agree with Devananda's definition of Œhardware discovery¹ and other tools similar to Ironic use the term discovery in this way, however I have found that these other tools often bundle the gathering of the system properties together with the discovery of the hardware as a single step from a user perspective. I also agree that in Ironic there needs to be a separate term for that (at least from a dev perspective) and I think Lucas¹s suggestion of Œhardware interrogation¹ or something like Œhardware inventory¹ would be more explanatory at first glance than Œintrospection¹. Thanks for the suggestion but no inventory please, this is another taboo word in Ironic. This is because when we say hardware inventory it kinda suggests that Ironic could be used as a CMDB, which is not the case. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Having written/worked on a few DC automation tools, Ive typically broken down the process of getting unknown hardware into production in to 4 distinct stages. 1) Discovery (The discovery of unknown hardware) 2) Normalising (Push initial configs like drac/imm/ilo settings, flashing to known good firmware etc etc) 3) Analysis (Figure out what the hardware is and what its constituent parts are cpu/ram/disk/IO caps/serial numbers etc) 4) Burnin (run linpack or equiv tests for 24hrs) At the end of stage 4 the hardware should be ready for provisioning. Hope that helps Stuart On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Lucas Alvares Gomes lucasago...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Sam Betts (sambetts) sambe...@cisco.com wrote: I agree with Devananda's definition of Œhardware discovery¹ and other tools similar to Ironic use the term discovery in this way, however I have found that these other tools often bundle the gathering of the system properties together with the discovery of the hardware as a single step from a user perspective. I also agree that in Ironic there needs to be a separate term for that (at least from a dev perspective) and I think Lucas¹s suggestion of Œhardware interrogation¹ or something like Œhardware inventory¹ would be more explanatory at first glance than Œintrospection¹. Thanks for the suggestion but no inventory please, this is another taboo word in Ironic. This is because when we say hardware inventory it kinda suggests that Ironic could be used as a CMDB, which is not the case. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- BR, Stuart ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
I fully and wholeheartedly agree that inventory management is out of scope of Ironic. But I have a small suggestion: We'd do well as a community to adopt/evangelize an informal rule which I enforce at work (because I see this happen a lot when brainstorming with cross-project goals); we cannot say no (X) without suggesting an alternative (Y)... Like a runner throwing his baton at the next guy in the race instead of handing it to him. ; ) Back on topic however, is there an existing program where inventory data (consumed by Ironic or any other program that needs to know the configuration of hardwareX) could be stored? I.e. hardware catalog? *Adam Lawson* AQORN, Inc. 427 North Tatnall Street Ste. 58461 Wilmington, Delaware 19801-2230 Toll-free: (844) 4-AQORN-NOW ext. 101 International: +1 302-387-4660 Direct: +1 916-246-2072 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Stuart Fox stu...@demonware.net wrote: Having written/worked on a few DC automation tools, Ive typically broken down the process of getting unknown hardware into production in to 4 distinct stages. 1) Discovery (The discovery of unknown hardware) 2) Normalising (Push initial configs like drac/imm/ilo settings, flashing to known good firmware etc etc) 3) Analysis (Figure out what the hardware is and what its constituent parts are cpu/ram/disk/IO caps/serial numbers etc) 4) Burnin (run linpack or equiv tests for 24hrs) At the end of stage 4 the hardware should be ready for provisioning. Hope that helps Stuart On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Lucas Alvares Gomes lucasago...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Sam Betts (sambetts) sambe...@cisco.com wrote: I agree with Devananda's definition of Œhardware discovery¹ and other tools similar to Ironic use the term discovery in this way, however I have found that these other tools often bundle the gathering of the system properties together with the discovery of the hardware as a single step from a user perspective. I also agree that in Ironic there needs to be a separate term for that (at least from a dev perspective) and I think Lucas¹s suggestion of Œhardware interrogation¹ or something like Œhardware inventory¹ would be more explanatory at first glance than Œintrospection¹. Thanks for the suggestion but no inventory please, this is another taboo word in Ironic. This is because when we say hardware inventory it kinda suggests that Ironic could be used as a CMDB, which is not the case. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- BR, Stuart ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Adam Lawson alaw...@aqorn.com wrote: I fully and wholeheartedly agree that inventory management is out of scope of Ironic. But I have a small suggestion: We'd do well as a community to adopt/evangelize an informal rule which I enforce at work (because I see this happen a lot when brainstorming with cross-project goals); we cannot say no (X) without suggesting an alternative (Y)... Like a runner throwing his baton at the next guy in the race instead of handing it to him. ; ) Back on topic however, is there an existing program where inventory data (consumed by Ironic or any other program that needs to know the configuration of hardwareX) could be stored? I.e. hardware catalog? Nothing within OpenStack yet does this, and I am not aware of any stackforge projects providing an inventory database / hardware catalog / CMDB. That said, I have been encouraging people to look at integration between existing (enterprise or opensource) inventory management systems and Ironic. My discussions with enterprise CMDB vendors have so far been positive around the current logical boundary (Ironic is a provisioning tool, not a full CMDB). -Devananda ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Ironic] disambiguating the term discovery
On 10/20/2014 07:11 PM, Devananda van der Veen wrote: Hi all, I was reminded in the Ironic meeting today that the words hardware discovery are overloaded and used in different ways by different people. Since this is something we are going to talk about at the summit (again), I'd like to start the discussion by building consensus in the language that we're going to use. So, I'm starting this thread to explain how I use those two words, and some other words that I use to mean something else which is what some people mean when they use those words. I'm not saying my words are the right words -- they're just the words that make sense to my brain right now. If someone else has better words, and those words also make sense (or make more sense) then I'm happy to use those instead. So, here are rough definitions for the terms I've been using for the last six months to disambiguate this: hardware discovery The process or act of identifying hitherto unknown hardware, which is addressable by the management system, in order to later make it available for provisioning and management. hardware introspection The process or act of gathering information about the properties or capabilities of hardware already known by the management system. Why is this disambiguation important? At the last midcycle, we agreed that hardware discovery is out of scope for Ironic -- finding new, unmanaged nodes and enrolling them with Ironic is best left to other services or processes, at least for the forseeable future. However, introspection is definitely within scope for Ironic. Even though we couldn't agree on the details during Juno, we are going to revisit this at the Kilo summit. This is an important feature for many of our current users, and multiple proof of concept implementations of this have been done by different parties over the last year. It may be entirely possible that no one else in our developer community is using the term introspection in the way that I've defined it above -- if so, that's fine, I can stop calling that introspection, but I don't know a better word for the thing that is find-unknown-hardware. Suggestions welcome, Devananda I have never landed a meaningful patch to Ironic - but I +1 all of the above. I _HAVE_ had MANY confusing discussions with product managers and customers where someone says does it do discovery and half the room thinks one definition and half the room thinks the other. P.S. For what it's worth, googling for hardware discovery yields several results related to identifying unknown network-connected devices and adding them to inventory systems, which is the way that I'm using the term right now, so I don't feel completely off in continuing to say discovery when I mean find unknown network devices and add them to Ironic. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
