[Organizers] Re: Attracting young dancers

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

You confirmed my suspicions. "Youth" isn't a monoculture that follows a
single set of values. There are certainly youth communities that do
strongly value gender-blind dancing, and they are probably the norm in the
US Northeast, up into Canada, and perhaps many other regions.  But, in some
of the places where youth-plus dancing is strongest, the culture is quite
different. I don't know if Hayley Smith is on this list, but there's some
quite-bold, religious-traditionalist, young people dancing in large
numbers, down South. I'm pretty sure I'd be having an easier time building
our dance above 20 weekly participants if I were using traditional terms,
including attracting and retaining more young dancers.

--jh--


On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 12:58 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> The young (under 30) Sautee Nacoochee contra dancers tend to dance as
> gendered (not sure of my terminology)
> Switching roles doesn't happen much there so it's something that would
> tend to throw them.
> I enjoy switching on every swing with partner and, at Sautee, I tend to
> avoid that because
> - my partner is likely not used to it (I ask first)
> - high percentage of beginners come and I don't want to confuse them
> (w/ vast majority dancing trad roles).
> So, while I've done that at Sautee, it would be after the break and
> with a partner who was comfortable with switching up.
>
> Probably more switching at Riverfalls Lodge (SC), but I haven't danced
> there in awhile.
> RFL used to be where all the hot college aged Asheville dancers went to
> dance
> and they would have been comfortable crossing up dance roles, though not
> anywhere near the extent of, say, the Contracopia dancers in Philly.
> Comfortable means not a big deal to switch up roles.
> But, contrast w/ Philly Contracopia where maybe 20% cross role dancing at
> any time.
>
> I haven't danced at OFB (near Asheville, NC, so not rural Georgia) since
> before covid.
> College where OFB dances is liberal.
> I don't know what the current pattern is. I assume a little more
> comfortable/likely
> to cross dance than RFL.
>
> Joe, you know my wife, Jennifer Horrocks. Welcome to ask her or
> have me reach out to SNCA or RFL organizers or friends we know who
> regularly dance at OFB.  This weekend is the Atlanta dance weekend.
> I could ask around if you'd like for a more nuanced reply.
>
> -Heitzso
>
> Marie-Michèle, Hietzo,
>
> Marie-Michèle wrote:
> > I haven't yet found a dance with a strong younger core where
> male-presenting people almost all dance one role and female-presenting
> people almost all dance the other, no matter what role names they use.
>
> Hietzo, do the rural Georgia dances with strong younger participation fit
> this description?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --jh--
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 11:15 AM Marie-Michèle Fournier via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I took over as main organiser in Montreal when I was in my late 30s and
>> the people who decided to join the organizing committee after that were all
>> my age or younger except one. Gradually after that, our age average became
>> younger and younger, however part of that is unfortunately because we lost
>> several older dancers. I don't know exactly what it is we did that made
>> older dancers less likely to come back and younger dancers more likely to,
>> except for being very strongly non-gendered, even before we switched to
>> Larks and Robins after the pandemic. But I can tell you that I haven't yet
>> found a dance with a strong younger core where male-presenting people
>> almost all dance one role and female-presenting people almost all dance the
>> other, no matter what role names they use.
>> Marie-Michèle, Montréal, Québec, Canada
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Is Will Loving in the house?  Or anyone from the Amherst, MA, Wednesday
>>> night contra?  He was the ONLY person on the board over 30 in the years
>>> after he founded it, and it was largely a college/post-college crowd, the
>>> few times I was privileged to attend.  He told me that was his formula.
>>> Maybe he can give details. This was in the mid-2010s, I think.
>>>
>>> To me, there is a big difference between events run by and for younger
>>> dancers and broad community events with a predominantly older crowd trying
>>> to make up for our lame recruiting/retention efforts a few decades back, so
>>> we can keep our dances from dying as we age out, or to bring some energy
>>> 

[Organizers] Re: Attracting young dancers

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Marie-Michèle, Hietzo,

Marie-Michèle wrote:
> I haven't yet found a dance with a strong younger core where
male-presenting people almost all dance one role and female-presenting
people almost all dance the other, no matter what role names they use.

Hietzo, do the rural Georgia dances with strong younger participation fit
this description?

Thanks,

--jh--



On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 11:15 AM Marie-Michèle Fournier via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I took over as main organiser in Montreal when I was in my late 30s and
> the people who decided to join the organizing committee after that were all
> my age or younger except one. Gradually after that, our age average became
> younger and younger, however part of that is unfortunately because we lost
> several older dancers. I don't know exactly what it is we did that made
> older dancers less likely to come back and younger dancers more likely to,
> except for being very strongly non-gendered, even before we switched to
> Larks and Robins after the pandemic. But I can tell you that I haven't yet
> found a dance with a strong younger core where male-presenting people
> almost all dance one role and female-presenting people almost all dance the
> other, no matter what role names they use.
> Marie-Michèle, Montréal, Québec, Canada
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Is Will Loving in the house?  Or anyone from the Amherst, MA, Wednesday
>> night contra?  He was the ONLY person on the board over 30 in the years
>> after he founded it, and it was largely a college/post-college crowd, the
>> few times I was privileged to attend.  He told me that was his formula.
>> Maybe he can give details. This was in the mid-2010s, I think.
>>
>> To me, there is a big difference between events run by and for younger
>> dancers and broad community events with a predominantly older crowd trying
>> to make up for our lame recruiting/retention efforts a few decades back, so
>> we can keep our dances from dying as we age out, or to bring some energy
>> into them, or out of some principle of inclusion. Or whatever our real
>> reasons are for focusing so heavily on recruiting younger dancers (which,
>> guilty, I do for their energy).
>>
>> --jh--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:27 AM Chrissy Fowler via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Dana, for this reframing of the conversation! Shakes things up a
>>> bit in my mind. Love it.
>>>
>>> In Belfast ME, where our demographics have skewed toward a majority of
>>> dancers in teens-early 30s, we recruited board members in that age range
>>> because they already were the majority. (See
>>> https://www.belfastflyingshoes.org/board-of-directors)
>>>
>>> I’m curious what other organizers have experienced when they recruited
>>> people in teens/20s in order to increase that demographic among their
>>> dancers.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chrissy Fowler
>>> Belfast ME
>>>
>>>
>>> <><><><><><>
>>> chrissyfowler.com <http://www.chrissyfowler.com> dance leadership
>>> westbranchwords.com <http://www.westbranchwords.com> academic
>>> transcription
>>> belfastflyingshoes.org <http://www.belfastflyingshoes.org> participatory
>>> dance & music
>>> --
>>> *From:* Dana Dwinell-Yardley via Organizers <
>>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 6, 2023 11:13:16 AM
>>> *To:* A list for dance organizers 
>>> *Subject:* [Organizers] Re: Attracting young dancers
>>>
>>> And I forgot to note that my dance is Montpelier, VT!
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 10:56 AM Dana Dwinell-Yardley 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm coming in late to this discussion with a thought from the Form the
>>> Ocean dance weekend in 2019. They held a community discussion at that
>>> weekend structured around the idea of starting at "Point D." As in, with
>>> big conversations in our communities, we so often churn round and round on
>>> points A, B, C: "how do we get more diversity?? we're so [white/old/middle
>>> class/etc]! but we need diversity!"
>>>
>>> What if, instead, we started at point D and bypassed those first few
>>> questions that we always start with?
>>>
>>> I would suggest that Point D for this 

[Organizers] Re: Attracting young dancers

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Is Will Loving in the house?  Or anyone from the Amherst, MA, Wednesday
night contra?  He was the ONLY person on the board over 30 in the years
after he founded it, and it was largely a college/post-college crowd, the
few times I was privileged to attend.  He told me that was his formula.
Maybe he can give details. This was in the mid-2010s, I think.

To me, there is a big difference between events run by and for younger
dancers and broad community events with a predominantly older crowd trying
to make up for our lame recruiting/retention efforts a few decades back, so
we can keep our dances from dying as we age out, or to bring some energy
into them, or out of some principle of inclusion. Or whatever our real
reasons are for focusing so heavily on recruiting younger dancers (which,
guilty, I do for their energy).

--jh--




On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:27 AM Chrissy Fowler via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Thanks Dana, for this reframing of the conversation! Shakes things up a
> bit in my mind. Love it.
>
> In Belfast ME, where our demographics have skewed toward a majority of
> dancers in teens-early 30s, we recruited board members in that age range
> because they already were the majority. (See
> https://www.belfastflyingshoes.org/board-of-directors)
>
> I’m curious what other organizers have experienced when they recruited
> people in teens/20s in order to increase that demographic among their
> dancers.
>
> Cheers,
> Chrissy Fowler
> Belfast ME
>
>
> <><><><><><>
> chrissyfowler.com  dance leadership
> westbranchwords.com  academic
> transcription
> belfastflyingshoes.org  participatory
> dance & music
> --
> *From:* Dana Dwinell-Yardley via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 6, 2023 11:13:16 AM
> *To:* A list for dance organizers 
> *Subject:* [Organizers] Re: Attracting young dancers
>
> And I forgot to note that my dance is Montpelier, VT!
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 10:56 AM Dana Dwinell-Yardley 
> wrote:
>
> I'm coming in late to this discussion with a thought from the Form the
> Ocean dance weekend in 2019. They held a community discussion at that
> weekend structured around the idea of starting at "Point D." As in, with
> big conversations in our communities, we so often churn round and round on
> points A, B, C: "how do we get more diversity?? we're so [white/old/middle
> class/etc]! but we need diversity!"
>
> What if, instead, we started at point D and bypassed those first few
> questions that we always start with?
>
> I would suggest that Point D for this conversation about young dancers
> might be:
> *"Our dance *already has* age diversity. How shall we be with the people
> already in the room?"*
> rather than scrambling to say "we need more young dancers!"
>
> I'm 36, an in-between sort of age in the contra dance world. I started
> dancing 19 years ago, when I was 17. I absolutely started dancing because
> it was a place to hang out with my friends. And, I could tell which adults
> would talk to me like I was a fellow dancer, and which ones talked to me
> like I was a Young Person. I still have friendships with the ones who
> treated me like a person to this day.
>
> Get to know your young dancers like you would get to know anyone else you
> don't know yet! Don't be overbearing! Be friendly, ask them to dance, learn
> about their lives, but also leave them alone to do their own thing and hang
> with their friends. Treat them like humans and not A Class of People We
> Need for Diversity. People can tell when they're being tokenized.
>
> (My friend group and I had an experience about 4-5 years ago at our local
> English dance where the dance organizers/regulars practically *pounced* on
> us as we walked in the door and were like "wow! young people! so nice to
> have young people! can we give you a discount? will you come back again?
> will you bring your friends?" and we were like "...um we're just here to
> English dance?" It was very off-putting and made us LESS likely to come
> back again!)
>
> I also have lots of thoughts about fostering a culture of consent,
> non-gendered role terms, young people on your organizing committee, etc,
> but I'll save them for another day!
>
> Thanks,
> Dana
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 10:55 AM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Our community, like many others, has fewer young dancers than we would
> like.  I am wondering how different factors influence that and what we can
> do.
>
> Does the night of the week matter?  We dance on a Saturday night.  Would
> Friday be better?
>
> Does frequency matter?  We dance once a month?
>
> Does location matter?  We have a college (University of Kansas KU)  Would
> a dance location closer to or on campus matter?
>
> Are outreach strategies effective and what has your community 

[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision of
larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and
publicized in advance?  At least in some areas, there are not enough
positional callers to have an all-positional series.

Thanks,

--jh--


On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both
> a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for
> choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to
> make decisions about our dances.
>
> Lisa Lunt
> She/her
> Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if
>> you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make
>> it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be
>> uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by
>> leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all.
>>
>> My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and
>> implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the
>> caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half
>> off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either.
>>
>> "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event,
>> whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance.
>>
>> I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't
>> have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or
>> decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed
>> from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with
>> no heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people
>> advocating for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers
>> wouldn't make the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene
>> for all, not the way to set up dance joy.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Currently terminology is the caller's decision.  So it goes back and
>> forth from gendered to non gendered.  That is not mentioned on the website,
>> but I do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the
>> Lawrence board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that
>> responsibility and possible fall out from it.
>> 
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[Organizers] Re: [External] Attracting young dancers

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Sorry, another very long one.  As many readers will know, I started a
college contra group and an in-town group in Orlando just as the pandemic
was starting.  There had not been contra in Orlando for a number of years
before, but there is a nice dance about an hour's drive from here that gets
50+ dancers every month.  It's got a fairly relaxed tempo that's accessible
to many older dancers, but a few younger dancers go.  My goal was to make a
Northern-style dance that was attractive to and largely populated by
energetic dancers, many of whom might be roughly college-age, as was the
case in the dance I learned at in 1987.  Being a professor, I started on
campus, literally just months before the start of the pandemic.  The whole
story is long and littered with great examples of what went wrong and
things to learn from.  Here are some takeaways.

1. Non-dancing just-out-of-high-schoolers think of dancing as a
pre-romantic activity.  Two students and I put on an open-to-the-public,
very decorated, pop-rock contra dance party on campus.  It was heavily
advertised, with a website, posters all over campus, announcements in
student activity socials and email lists, Facebook, Discord, Instagram,
Reddit, Meetup, Tiktok, local arts calendars, tabling, enticing graphics,
you name it. It's amazing what you can line up in over 2 years of not
dancing!  It was free to students and baited with tons of free pizza in the
heavily trafficked atrium we were dancing in.  We got 35 dancers!  But,
just 4-5 students.  MANY students entered the space, looked, turned around,
and left.  When our student leaders (2 of the 4-5) chased them down and
asked them why they left, they said, "We don't want to dance with our
parents!"

Lesson: if you're holding an event intended to get a lot of college-age
folks to come who have never danced before, everyone dancing and most of
the organizers should be college-age.

Following this experience, we closed the campus dances to those over 30
(that pissed some people off!), and used it as a "gateway drug" to get
students to eventually come to our in-town dances, which are open to all.
The experienced students bring new students.  It worked for a while, but
see below for how it eventually failed.  Now we have two independent
dances.  Or had.

2. Young people today have been bombarded with come-ons to participate in
activities from people older than them since their infancy. They are really
good at shutting all that out. They barely even remember posters they pass
five times a day. Social-media tactics of the past simply don't work
anymore. Rather than using socials like Facebook that present things users
might like to try, they go for Discord, where defined groups of people
interact, or Instagram, where you see just the groups you want to see.  Our
group has given out about 1500 business cards with our ad and a QR code,
posted many hundred flyers, has a group in every social including some we
pay for (like Meetup), has tabled at Pride and other events that draw tens
of thousands of visitors, been in local arts podcasts, been featured in
local magazines, tabled at large events on campus, etc., etc., etc.  We've
done it graphically, with video, with young people as the face of the
group. Basically, none of that works directly with any consistency (but,
see below).

Surveying our dancers revealed that only two things have ever worked to get
people to try contra dancing:

a: Friends dragging friends. Success varies a lot, here. Some people are
magnets. Others, well, aren't. (I'm in the latter category.) If you have a
magnet in your group who is interested, make recruitment their only job!
Years ago, the Monday Night Contra in Concord, MA, succeeded in competing
with the more-popular Thursday Night NEFFA dance by identifying the magnets
and giving them free admission if they brought all their friends.  Those
magnets were established dancers, however.  This was Don Veino's genius and
he can share details.

b: Advertising in spaces where people are purposefully looking for an
activity. Tabling at the start-of-the-year campus activities midway is the
main one of these that has worked for us.  This brought out 45 dancers to
the first event, about half of whom stayed through the middle of the year.
Meetup has brought in maybe half a dozen to a dozen dancers in 18 months,
so maybe one every other month.  We get a few people a month from web
searches, who find our website.  It's really not hard to become
discoverable to those looking.

3. A group of old people (I'm 56) can't create a social event for a group
of young adults with any real probability of success.  A group of young
adults can do it, but it is very hard even for them to succeed at
convincing their peers to try it in this age of infinite fun things to do
and easy discovery.  You need at least one really talented young leader who
is/are themselves inspired to rally others to the cause.  You can give this
group advice as they request it, but if you push 

[Organizers] Re: Struggling to Revitalize the core post covid

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Hi Sandy,

I think a lot of dances are facing this or similar situations. There isn’t
a silver bullet but there a lots of things you can try. What will work will
depend on your community - and not on mine or anyone else’s on this list.
Do what works, try stuff, and let us know how it goes, the good and the
bad. I’m going to mix in some general community-building thoughts as well
as address your specific concern about bringing back your core, in part
because many may not be there to be brought back.

First, two observations:

Lots of people trimmed down their commitments in the pandemic and are
enjoying a bit more free time. Many of those are not coming back, and
neither are some elders who have slowed down, those who moved away, etc.
So, don’t equate success with bringing them all back. Build a new core of
prior and newer dancers.

Also, a trend that definitely accelerated in the pandemic is a decrease in
personal commitment to activity groups, even among older folks but
especially among younger. What they are loyal to is their friend group or
partner.  More people pick and choose what they’ll do this weekend on the
spur of the moment with their friends or partner. This is a real bummer
both because you need a bigger community to get a critical mass and because
skill advances quickest with frequent practice, which people don’t get if
they only come occasionally.

So, some general things to try:

A good way to take advantage of the latter trend is to focus as much on
making the dance a fun social space where people come to be with friends
they only meet dancing, as on the dancing itself.

Make the dancing itself the most fun it can be. With lots of beginners,
simple dances danced at tempo are more fun than complex dances taught
forever and then danced slowly, even for experienced dancers. Make sure
your callers know the kind of crowd they’ll get and that they should
prepare simple but fun dances. Keep a reasonable tempo, so it’s dancing and
not just walking. Several recent threads here listed simple-but-fun dances.

Make it a party all the time and give it a theme some of the time. People
love costumes (optional, of course), and there may be folks who are into
cosplay, decorating, fancier snack foods, etc. who can help. Advertise any
themed event, of course! Get on people’s calendars. Be on all the socials,
not just your generation’s. Kids have not done email or Facebook for well
over a decade.

Specific to your question of bringing back the core:

Reach out to your former core dancers and ask them in a positive way what
would get them to come out and dance. You’ll get some information, which
you can consider, but you’ll also be sending the message that they’re
missed and you want them back. Personal contact is better than an email
blast. If there’s a very large number, you could consider holding a private
event on a different night as a one-off welcome-back event.

Pony up for a high-end band and caller and use that event as a
bring-them-back occasion. Reach out to the former core and personally
invite them.

Make the last 2-4 dances each evening a little more advanced. Make it clear
in the ads, at the start of the workshop, and early in the evening that the
last hour or so is more advanced and may not be accessible to first-timers.
You can say that the workshop offsets the advanced portion, if people ask.
Then, do some moderately more-complex stuff in that time. Don’t expect
festival-level dancing. For my dance, I might try a hey.  If it works with
mildly more complex dances, you can notch it up a bit more the next dance,
and adjust from there. The key thing is to monitor the newbies to see if
they keep coming back and join the advanced dancing after a few weeks. If
not, dial back.

Hold intermediate workshops before the newbie lesson. Advertise this as a
quick way to get good enough to enjoy dancing all night.

Finally, the two elephants: covid and gender terms. These have been hashed
to death, so let’s not do that again. Just be in touch with your
community’s wishes, make your decisions, and be clear about them. Depending
on the community, you may lose some dancers and take heat for it no matter
what you do. Predictability is key, here, as is staying in touch with the
community.

—jh—


On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 9:21 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I am in Lawrence Kansas.  Since Covid we have consistently had a larger
> number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance.  This evening
> we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people.  I would estimate
> that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers.  We are also in the
> process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
> are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience.  I've
> seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
> we have that formula pretty much flipped.  We dance monthly which is a
> hindrance.  

[Organizers] Re: Twitter hashtags

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Users of different socials cluster heavily by age.  My college students
refuse to use Facebook.  They use Instagram a lot.  Discord is where they
hang out, but Discord isn't useful for getting in front of new users.
Facebook is getting less and less effective at that, too.  Facebook started
being uncool about 10-15 years ago, so the non-Facebook crowd is now into
their 30s.  I find that enough dances (not just contra) are organized
around Facebook that there are plenty of dancers younger than that who do
use Facebook solely for dance communication, but that doesn't find new
dancers of that age group.

I tried Reddit and got over a thousand views on several posts!  However,
not a single person who actually came to a dance had ever seen one of my
Reddit posts.  I never found out who those others were, or what actually
counted as a view.

TikTok does put stuff in front of new people, but you have to make a video
a certain way to get a lot of hits, which is much more difficult than just
typing a message.  TikTok is also starting to be banned in certain places,
such as Florida university campuses.  It mainly appeals to younger folks,
maybe under about 25 now, so if you have a few of those, they might be
happy to make and post some videos, and can do it authentically.  The most
useful thing I got out of our one TikTok post was the ability to pull it up
and show someone one-on-one.  That was quite effective, moreso than
YouTube.  No clue why they liked it better.

I got almost 30 new members on Meetup right off, about four or five of whom
actually came.  Then, after a month, suddenly no more.  I think they were
trying to get me to pay more for placement.  Maybe Meetup Pro is worthwhile?

I've never tried Twitter.  It hardly seems worthwhile to start, now.

My dance is in all the local online calendars.  I discovered that the
Orlando Sentinel, our paper, was cribbing its listings from
OrlandoatPlay.com, but got a date wrong.  Out of curiosity, I asked the
venue owner whether anyone showed up that night.  He was not holding an
event but was at the venue doing paperwork.  Nobody showed up.  So, that
gave me a sense for the value of the online arts calendar in a major city's
main newspaper.

If they know what contra is and are looking for it, any web search should
get them to your website.  For others, by far the most effective is
person-to-person, but that doesn't scale until you've already got scale.

Getting covered in the media is always good.  Holding public outdoor dances
or teaching a dance at another group's event also work.

In the end, though, people are pretty good at defending their time.  After
all this effort and going on a year of dances, we're still steady at just
20 dancers.

--jh--


On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 11:51 AM Harris Lapiroff via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I can’t speak to what Rich meant by “our desired audience” but I
> personally don’t think of Twitter as a place people go looking for local
> social dances to attend, so I think it’s not most social dances’ desired
> audience of “people who might come to a dance.” We use Facebook and Meetup
> to advertise events and are planning to branch out into Instagram as well.
>
> (It’s possible this isn’t true of all communities. Maybe there are places
> where people really do use Twitter to find local events! But it’s not
> something I’ve encountered.)
>
> > On May 9, 2023, at 11:11 AM, Weogo Reed via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > I always thought of the folk scene as an inclusive community.
> > "our desired audience"
> > This hit me on a personal level.
> > Why be exclusive?
> >
> > Thanks and good health,  Weogo
> >
> >
> >> On 5/9/2023 9:39 AM, Rich Dempsey via Organizers wrote:
> >> We have disabled our Twitter account. In addition to our concerns with
> current management, we've found that keeping up with many social media
> accounts hard to manage. And some CDR organizers feel that Twitter doesn't
> align with our desired audience.
> >>
> >> Rich Dempsey
> >> Country Dancers of Rochester (NY)
> >>
> > ___
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
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[Organizers] Re: PLEASE INCLUDE WHERE YOU ARE LOCATED. Re: Is it time to change our mask mandates?

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

>> And I could not exactly figure out what the meaning of titrate is……
> Neither could I.

Titration is a chemical procedure in which you measure the concentration of
a solution by adding something else until an indicator chemical, also in
the fluid, changes color, and then use the amount added to calculate the
original solution's concentration.  A common example is determining the pH
of a solution.  It's more loosely used to discuss adding two things
together to get a mixture at a given ratio of the inputs, and even more
loosely used in conversation among us nerds if the two things aren't even
chemicals in an experiment, such as titrating some experienced dancers into
your newbie workshop to get a 1:1 ratio.  (NOT advocating that we pick up
this particular usage in contra!)

Perhaps the poster intended that the use of masks allowed the adjustment of
risk to a tolerable level, though that's a rather coarse analogy to actual
titration, unless somehow a variable percentage of masks is in play.  Or
maybe they meant "mitigate", as you titrate the inputs, not the output.

--jh--


On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 4:29 PM Michael Pavan via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Paul, thanks for speaking up about this.
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 2023, at 1:09 PM, Paul Rosenberg via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> > It is helpful and also interesting to me to know where you live and
> where your dance is
> >
> > And sometimes it’s nice to know your last name!
> Agreed. We don't all know each other and/or where they are (or are talking
> about).
>
>
> >
> > And I could not exactly figure out what the meaning of titrate is……
> Neither could I.
>
> My understanding is wearing a mask protects other people from us, more
> than it protects us from them. Masks are most effective protecting
> everyone, only if everyone wears one.
>
> In other words, if I'm willing to endure additional risk I should continue
> to wear a mask to protect others, but not object if others don't wear one.
>
> Michael Pavan
> Falmouth MA
>
>
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>
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[Organizers] Re: Is it time to change our mask mandates?

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Dancing in Florida has been complicated by politics.  It is illegal in
Florida for a business, even an unincorporated association or nonprofit, to
require a vaccine, $5000 fine per occurrence, each denied attendee is an
occurrence.

Now:

In Orlando, Florida, given our dancers’ behavior outside of the dance
(barely a mask in view since sometime in late 2021), the number of
anti-vaxxers who attend our public dances, and state law, we have
encouraged, but not required, masks and vaxes since our founding dances in
early 2022.

We have two dance series, one on campus at UCF and one public.  I'm told
that the students are about 90% vaccinated, though we're not allowed to
ask.  The number comes from looking up samples of our students in
FloridaShots, which isn't perfect, because the early FEMA vaccination
centers did not register their shots.  However, those shots are now long in
the past.  I also don't know how old the 90% number is.

Typically, we get around 20 dancers for the public dance and similar for
most of the campus dances, though the campus numbers have fallen as the
semester winds down.  Two students wear a mask at the on-campus dances.
The same two attend the public dances and mask there.  There's typically
about one other mask at the public dance.  We do get a fair number of
senior citizens and they almost never mask.  At both series, everyone signs
the same short, plain-English, three-point waiver.  The first point is
assuming the risks, including explicitly death from disease.

We have occasionally taken stronger measures, but they were not well
received:

We held two open contras in summer 2022.  We strongly encouraged masking at
the June 2022 dance (attendance of 35). Around 10 more attendees chose to
sit out and not dance rather than mask.  It was the first public dance in
the region since the start of the pandemic, so they turned it into a social
event to see their friends. It was also the first gender-free event in the
region, so some may have chosen not to dance for that reason.

We required masks and asked unvaccinated dancers not to come to our July
2022 dance, due to a spike starting.  Attendance dropped to 21 and there
were complaints, both from attendees and non-attendees.

Since then, there have always been a few masks, but not many, see above.

All of this is consistent with what I see at swing and salsa, both of which
attract 50-100+ dancers in the same or similar spaces, are mask-optional,
and have almost no masks.  I know that when we insisted on masks and asked
unvaccinated dancers to stay away, some just went to swing.

It always strikes me just how different the different regions of the US are
on masks and such, and that it carries over to dancing. A friend who lives
in Ithaca, NY, said that she had just gone to the grocery store maskless
for the first time, and was really nervous about it.  She has no particular
risks.  I've barely seen a mask at a Florida grocery in like a year and a
half.  It's remarkable how deeply our perception of safety depends on what
others around us are doing, and how much that depends on community
willingness to sacrifice for others they don't know.  That characteristic
is one of the defining elements of the liberal-conservative spectrum, and
political actors have exploited it mercilessly, on both sides.  Given that
the majority of dances are in the relatively liberal Northeast (check out
https://www.trycontra.com/heatmap-points.html), and tend to be liberal even
compared to those communities, it is perhaps not surprising that the
majority sentiment on this list the last time the question was asked was to
keep masking, even though that is not the majority approach in the dancing
US today, considering all types of dances.

I would set mask policy by 1) what the medical community recommends locally
and 2) what the dance's target audience wants.  As the Flurry organizers
learned, every policy, including no policy, will cause some people to come
and others to stay away.  Deciding means knowing your goals and the
feelings of those you're trying to please, which may vary by category.  New
dancers coming in on their own may look statistically like the population,
while existing ones and maybe their friends may favor masks more, for
reasons such as Julian states, for example.  Any, yes, people say one thing
but actually do another!

In our case, we have so few regulars (maybe 10?) that it's more important
to bring in new dancers than keep every single existing dancer.  If you
have 100 regular dancers who say they strongly favor masks, it may be more
important to keep those than to get new ones, especially new ones with a
different mask tolerance than your existing dancers.  Also, each change
will shake some dancers loose, so be consistent, or at least predictable.

Some dances are experimenting with different rules in separate series,
alternating rules on alternating nights, and masked/mask-optional lines.
I'd be interested to hear how dancers are 

[Organizers] Re: Need ideas/feedback about how to get new dancers to return

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Dana, this was so clearly articulated and beautifully written!  Would you
give permission for people to forward and post it publicly?  I feel it
important to ask, as we want this to be a safe place, even if the archives
are searchable.

--jh--


On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:23 PM Dana Dwinell-Yardley via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> One more soap bubble for the soap box!
>
> We also take a step toward inclusion when we are kind, patient, and
> supportive of each other while we learn new things: whether that's learning
> how to balance and swing, or learning how to use new pronouns for someone.
> It's gonna be awkward at first! That's how learning works! We'll just keep
> practicing and improving together.
>
> Dana
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 12:02 PM Mary Collins  wrote:
>
>> Dana,
>>
>> Thank you.  Well said and I am sharing with my very conservative board.
>> I think they need a wake up call, forgive me but "either shit or get off
>> the pot".  If we really want our dance to continue we need to address this.
>>
>> I hope for a better tomorrow for all of us no matter the walk we choose.
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Mary "from Buffalo" not.
>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche
>>
>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
>> to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:21 AM Dana Dwinell-Yardley via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm going to explore this intersection of gender-free role terms +
>>> welcoming new dancers + growing community a little bit. [And by "a little
>>> bit" I actually mean a "a long soapbox about important stuff," so hang on
>>> for the ride.]
>>>
>>> I'm a genderqueer / gender nonconforming person, and a huge part of my
>>> folk community includes transgender, nonbinary, and other gender
>>> nonconforming folks. If you haven't been paying much attention to the news,
>>> let me tell you: The political and social climate around gender and
>>> sexuality in the United States right now is *terrifying* for LGBTQ+ folks.
>>> Twenty-three states introduced laws in 2022 that infringe or attack the
>>> basic rights of transgender and queer people, and more than 13 of those
>>> bills have become law. There is a ton of hatred, fear, and violence being
>>> directed toward the queer and trans community, especially youth, even in
>>> liberal states like Vermont (where I live).
>>>
>>> All this is to say — it's a hard and scary time to be a queer person.
>>> And our dance communities have the potential to be places of radical
>>> inclusion, expansiveness, safety, and welcome in a violent world that seeks
>>> to deny us our basic right to exist.
>>>
>>>- When a dance uses gender-free terms, that is a step toward that
>>>radical inclusion.
>>>- When dancers are comfortable and happy to dance with any person in
>>>any role, that's another step. (For example, if you've got a lot of men 
>>> who
>>>show obvious discomfort at swinging anyone who's not a woman, the dancing
>>>is likely to feel icky and unsafe to trans & nonbinary folks or anyone
>>>swapping roles, regardless of terms used.)
>>>- When we take the time to explain our dance culture as well as the
>>>basic moves, that's another step.
>>>- When we offer nametags with a place to write in pronouns, that's
>>>another step.
>>>- When we offer a sliding scale to make our dance accessible to
>>>folks of all income levels, that's another step.
>>>- When people can see themselves reflected in the organizing
>>>committee members (i.e. diversity of age, gender, class background, race,
>>>etc), in a way that's actually sharing the work and not tokenizing 
>>> people,
>>>that's another step.
>>>- When long-time dancers ask newcomers to dance in a friendly but
>>>not pushy way, and we normalize saying no as well as saying yes, that's
>>>another step.
>>>- When we normalize giving and receiving feedback about the way our
>>>dancing affects others, that's another step. (i.e. "hey, will you grab my
>>>hand less tightly? that hurts." "oh! thanks for telling me! is that 
>>> better?)
>>>- When we are transparent about why we're doing what we're doing
>>>(i.e. our values, like Julian suggested), that's another step. When I get
>>>up to give announcements, for example, I thank people for helping to make
>>>the dance welcoming and inclusive, and I speak about our sliding scale, 
>>> our
>>>name buttons, our role terms, and wearing masks all as pathways to a more
>>>inclusive and welcoming space, as ways that we care for one another.
>>>- (Right now, I am still inclined to think that wearing masks is
>>>another way that we create spaces of radical inclusion and safety,
>>>especially for folks at higher risk for COVID, but that's a whole 

[Organizers] Re: Need ideas/feedback about how to get new dancers to return

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

> what does striving for gender free dancing without being gender free mean?

A number of dances nearby are in this category, so I'll answer.  The
organizers, or some of them, and/or callers would like the dance to be
gender-free, and maybe some of the dancers would, as well.  The organizers
are concerned that at least a significant number of dancers will not like
it, and they may have some justifications for those concerns (e.g., many
dancers told them).  They're nibbling at the edges, talking up the idea,
maybe having occasional gender-free dances, thinking of starting a
gender-free series as an alternative to the regular one or alternating
gendered and gender-free dances or leaving it to the caller to decide (one
caller called this throwing the caller under the bus!).  They're not quite
ready to eliminate all gendered dances and declare it on their website, but
they're moving in that direction.

...Perhaps slowly.  At least one group down here (Florida) tried
gender-free and went back to gendered.  Orlando is still the only
gender-free in the state, as far as I know.  Give them time...

--jh--



On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 11:35 AM Jeff Kaufman via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi Mary,
>
> I'm still confused -- what does striving for gender free dancing without
> being gender free mean?  Is it that you use "gents" and "ladies"
> but emphasize that anyone can dance any role?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 7:51 AM Mary Collins via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Alexander- oops...while we are not specifically gender free, we strive
>> for it in a very very conservative group of older dancers.  I am scheduled
>> to meet with our web person soon and will adress verbage. Thanks for this
>> info.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 4:34 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mary,
>>>
>>> Is the Buffalo dance gender free?  The website tells callers to use
>>> gents and ladies. If the dance is in fact gender free, then the website
>>> needs updating.  If you are advertising the dance as gender free but use
>>> gents and ladies, that would certainly not encourage me to return if I were
>>> a new dancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 13, 2023, at 3:54 PM, Mary Collins via Organizers <
>>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Watching this as we have the same issue. We are (I believe) the 2nd
>>> largest city in NYS and have the most pitiful turnout.
>>>
>>> I think you have some good ideas here.
>>>
>>> One comment: we often or even always speak about our dance not only
>>> gender free, no partner necessary to bring, but also as no lessons needed,
>>> each dance being taught and "walked through".  Then we advertise "the
>>> lesson" b4 the dance. If words matter (and I think we agree they do) the
>>> this is a huge contradiction.
>>>
>>> I say to people these sets of words & phrasing: easy, walking to music,
>>> Only 8 steps, no need to bring partner but a friend is fun, dances are
>>> taught, practiced (stole from country line dance & swing) and then they are
>>> prompted once the music starts. We offer basic move instruction rather than
>>> lesson.
>>>
>>> I don't really know if these changes help, hinder or have no effect. I
>>> only know that not having a friend anchor for the first few dances would
>>> have resulted in my not coming back. The lesson too. But that's just my
>>> perception.
>>>
>>> We give out "get in free" cards and encourage ppl to share theirs with a
>>> friend. I also encourage people who say "I told my friends...", to next
>>> dance offer to pick them up or meet b4 and come together.
>>>
>>> We also encourage experienced dancers to partner with new dancers.
>>>
>>> I am anxious to hear other's ideas.
>>>
>>> Mary "from Buffalo", not.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 12:49 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
>>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 Newbies are not returning my thoughts...
 Why? not feeling welcome?, feeling intimidated/too hard?  Coming late
 to lesson and being lost/confused during dance?  Lack of feeling of
 mastery/learning?  Need follow up lesson since we only dance 1x/month?  One
 month is a long time to wait for another lesson.  Not enough younger
 dancers like themselves?
 Ideas:
 1. Use beginner friendly buttons
 2. Ask experienced dancers to dance with beginners for first 2 dances
 at least.  Board members lead by example.
 3. Encourage experienced dancers to come for the beginner lesson to
 welcome/socialize with new dancers.
 4. Have caller or one of us give out free passes (pass for next dance)
 at the lesson so we don't have to remember to do it at the table.  We gave
 out 15 free passes to new dancers in Feb and did not get any to return in
 March. (March dance was on 2nd sat instead of our normal 3rd sat and it's
 spring break.  Feb attendance 61, March 38 (paid dancers, not including 3
 listeners).  Also there was a 

[Organizers] Re: Need ideas/feedback about how to get new dancers to return

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

I think we're doing about all we can to get them there at 7, but I'm eager
for ideas.  Here's maybe too much detail on what we do, and the result,
thoughts welcome, especially if you get better results.  But, we used to
get worse, so this may be about as much as we can expect.

Our website (contraknights.org) and socials (Contra Knights on FB, IG,
Discord, all linked from the website if you want to check them out) say the
doors open at 6:30 and the dance runs 7-10:30, starts with a lesson for new
dancers, and has open dancing starting around 7:30.  It requests new
dancers to show up in time to start dancing at 7:00, and in one place uses
boldface and the word "sharp".  I want to encourage experienced dancers to
come at 7 but not require it, as some in our student group weren't coming
at all when we presented the dance as starting at 7 and then spent 30
minutes in the lesson.  They told us that was why.  Now some come at 7:30
or even 8, but with a good attitude, and enough show up at 7.

Perhaps more importantly, when we talk to dancers about bringing new
people, we emphasize the need to bring them in time to start at 7.  We
especially do this after dances when we have a big bunch come in at 7:30 or
later and confuse the dance (we're small, so four newbies showing up at
7:30 might be 20% of the group).  We do this in the Discord server for the
student club and in discussion in the break and after.  On socials for the
open dance, I'll sometimes say, be sure to bring those newbies in time for
the lesson at 7.  The organizers are divided about whether to encourage a
newbie to come late if the alternative is not coming at all.  I think the
answer is one or two, yes, bigger groups, no.  A larger dance can absorb a
bigger group of newbies.  One newbie per minor set is a good rule of thumb
for rapid integration into the dance.  Since we start out with half
newbies, more walking in after the workshop is a real challenge to us.

We do encourage experienced dancers to dance with newbies, especially
early.  Again, if we require it, some of the experienced dancers won't
come, as this means they'll never get to dance with each other, given our
50%.

Of course, it always has to be said positively and inclusively, as in, so
WE'll all feel comfortable and dance well together when the regular dancing
starts at 7:30, never, so THEY don't mess us up!  A reason doesn't need to
be given, but in conversational contexts like social media I think it helps
sometimes.  It's rare to be in a context where no newbies can hear!

This gets about a third to half the newbies actually there at 7, and most
by 7:15 or so.  Some still walk in late.  A decent number of people who
have been at least once also come at 7, and by 7:30 about half our
experienced dancers are dancing in the workshop.  They know (and we tell
them, again informally) that their participation in the workshop helps the
newbies learn faster, especially the swing, and makes the dance better.

Our ads say, "Join us for high-energy dancing", "inclusive community", and
"beginners welcome".  We had "all dances taught" and others in the past but
simplified it.  I think that if you emphasize the teaching and simplicity
too much, you're telegraphing that it isn't easy (shades of a bank
president saying, "we're fully capitalized" out of the blue last week! what
more terrifying words can you hear from your bank?).  People go to social
events for fun and social interaction, so we try to emphasize those.  We
also have a friendly cartoon that visually telegraphs the joy of dancing
together as the centerpiece of all our ads.  I think photographs have a
harder time doing this, except perhaps the very best.

Here's the text in one of our Facebook events:

[picture with cartoon, encouraging words, and website]

[when-where-etc in standard FB event format]

This event is for EVERYONE: beginner, experienced, old, and young. Click
GOING!
Celebrate St. Patrick's with LIVE MUSIC by McIntyre and calling by Joe
Harrington! McIntyre is Lisa McIntyre on guitar, George Houston on
percussion, Terry Henson on bass, and Sharon Hartmann on hot Irish fiddle.
We'll be in the new Winter Park Ballroom Dance Company, just 15 minutes
from UCF and right next to Jeremiah's Italian Ice (we'll go there after).
Bring friends or come alone and make some. Wear some GREEN! (But absolutely
no pinching allowed!)
What is contra? Where do I park? See: https://contraknights.org/

for videos, a parking map, and more.
No partner or experience required. Dances start easy and get more
challenging as the evening progresses. 

[Organizers] Re: Need ideas/feedback about how to get new dancers to return

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

I'm in the same boat.  Orlando's dance is about 20 dancers each week.
We've been at it since last summer and the numbers have not changed.  About
half the group is newbies each time.  A few come back, but often after 2-4
dances they don't come anymore.  One referred to contra as "cute", and I
suppose the easy dances are.  We have just a handful of regulars.  So, I've
been giving this a lot of thought.  I don't have magic answers, or I
wouldn't still have the problem.  Some observations:

I can't call anything too complex with that number of newbies.  If someone
has come half a dozen times, they're likely outgrowing the dance and
getting bored.  They probably have all my dances memorized, too.  It may be
the experienced dancers I need to incentivize, not the newbies, if I want
to retain people after a few weeks!  Raising the level toward the end of
the evening is hard, as then we only have about 12 dancers, half newbies.
Finances are hard, too.  I'd hire another caller if I could afford it.
I've done it a few times, but that's not enough.  CDSS grants are far below
the $500/week of a basic dance with hall, music, caller, and sound.

People today have many more options of things to do than in the past.  They
often like to try out different things with the same friend group.  They
may feel that coming every third time is a deep commitment to the dance.
This makes it hard for the group as a whole to improve enough to retain
many dancers after a few times, as it takes each person several months
rather than several weeks to get good.  The lower level drives experienced
people away.

People do social activities to connect with others.  They either need to go
with friends who already like it (so this is the only option for hanging
out with those friends that night) or they need to make friends there.
It's good to have a welcoming committee.  It's good if people verbally
welcome the new dancers and ask them to dance.  It's far better if people
strike up genuine friendships with them, such that they want to return to
hang out and dance with those people.  But, it is difficult to arrange
something genuine, especially across generations.  Things like going out
for ice cream afterwards help, though.

People who have come a few times are less likely to make a point of coming
the very next time than either regulars or newbies who have seen an ad and
decided they want to try it.  Even though we have a calendar of future
dances and we make a lot of announcements on social media and I personally
send an individual Facebook chat to every dancer in my friend list, I still
get plenty of, oh I have something that night, gee if only I'd known, etc.
I've made business cards with QR codes for the dance and hand these out
both as ads for people to give to friends and to remind them to put the
next dance on their calendar.

It goes without saying that if people (especially younger women) are
experiencing unwanted behavior or are being treated in an unpleasant way,
they won't come back.  Reactively managing these problems isn't enough.
You often won't hear about them unless you seek them out by making a safe
space and asking people individually whether they're always treated well.
Setting behavioral expectations and letting people know of the recourse
paths starts in the workshop and continues with signs and mentions during
the dance.  A culture of consent and courtesy is key.  If nobody is
returning, you might have a problem of this sort.

To make the dance attractive to a given group, put that group on your board
in sufficient numbers to change the program and outreach so that it
attracts more of them.

We were all (mostly) dragged to a dance by a friend.  Find the people doing
this (the social centers of each friend group) and incentivize them.

People bond over food.  Have snacks at the break.

Make it free for students, young people, and low-income or jobless people
if you're hoping to attract them.  Ask people who are well off to make up
the difference, in private, one-on-one conversations.

I've heard a lot of anecdotal information about second-dance-free cards and
the like.  I am curious if anyone has real data about their effectiveness.

But, the bottom line is, if it were really the best experience of their
lives, they'd come back.  I'm doing what I can to get better at calling and
to have better music, to raise the funds to have different callers and live
bands every time, and to advertise, advertise, advertise, so the numbers
come up, we can afford a quality program, and the experience improves.

--jh--


On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 4:37 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Mary,
>
> Is the Buffalo dance gender free?  The website tells callers to use gents
> and ladies. If the dance is in fact gender free, then the website needs
> updating.  If you are advertising the dance as gender free but use gents
> and ladies, that would certainly not encourage me to return if I were a 

[Organizers] Re: Current use of terms

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Orlando, FL
Currently larks+robins for the dances I call, which has been all of them so
far, but we're moving to hiring callers, as our finances allow.  Then it
will be caller's choice, so long as it's gender-neutral.

If we said "loons" rather than "larks", I'd be happier, as "larks" starts
like "ladies".  But, I think that ship has sailed.

--jh--


On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 10:15 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Lawrence Barn Dance Association has also opted for "Caller's Choice".
> Personally (not speaking for LBDA) I don't especially like the terms Larks
> and Robins and am hoping something better comes along.  We don't have a
> statement on our website, but I plan to work on that.
>
> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:54 PM Kelly Tabor via Organizers <
> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Portland, OR 2/4/5th Saturdays are Larks and Robins. It's on the newcomer
>> page and I'll get it added to the main contra page.
>>
>> Portland's 1/3rd Saturdays don't have a policy but have consistently been
>> Larks and Robins this year
>>
>> Portland's Joyride dance has no policy but does announce terms ahead of
>> the dance.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 5:38 PM Jerome Grisanti via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Both Louisville Kentucky and Lexington Kentucky are opting for "caller's
>>> choice." I believe Berea Kentucky is doing the same. Callers have used
>>> gents/ladies, larks/robins and positional.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 7:46 PM Peter Simonyi via Organizers <
>>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 There are only 49 dances on Jeff's list, so I went to each website and
 took a quick look around.

 Of the dances that are still clearly running and list the terms they
 use on their website (somewhere I could find it), the overwhelming
 majority use Larks+Robins.  The only other terms with any
 representation are Larks+Ravens and one mention of positional calling.

 "Not mentioned" means they don't say what role terms are used in a
 place I could find (even if they say it's gender-free etc -- some don't
 even say that much).

 "Not running?" means it appears the series is no longer putting on
 dances, or still on hiatus from the pandemic.  If they are holding
 dances, the website is out of date.

 This of course misses dances that are not in or up to date on Jeff's
 list.


 Amherst MA: http://amherstcontra.org
 Not mentioned (‘what is contra’ page mentions gents+ladies but it
 seems to be a general description not specific to this dance)

 Amherst MA:
 https://engage.hampshire.edu/organization/contradancecollective
 Not running?

 Arden DE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ardencontra/
 "Arden uses gender-free role terms (usually larks and robins, and
 sometimes positional calling.)"

 Belfast ME: http://www.belfastflyingshoes.org/
 Larks+Robins

 Berkeley CA: http://www.bacds.org/series/contra/berkeley_wed/
 Larks+Robins

 Blacksburg VA: https://gobblerconnect.vt.edu/organization/contrafolk
 Private site

 Blacksburg VA: https://www.facebook.com/ContraFolkVT/
 Not running? Was Larks+Ravens

 Brooklyn NY: http://www.brooklyncontra.org/
 Not mentioned

 Cambridge MA: http://www.bidadance.org/
 Larks+Robins

 Carrboro NC: http://firstsaturdaycontra.com/
 “callers will use the terms Larks and Ravens (or Robins)”

 Charlottesville VA: https://www.facebook.com/groups/984316375582303/
 Larks+Robins

 Chicago IL: https://www.facebook.com/QueerContraChicago/
 Larks+Robins?  Their "about" description mentions both Ravens and
 Robins, so probably this is an editing oversight:
 “Instead of gender roles, dancers choose whether to dance the Lark
 role or the Raven role.  One role extends their Left arm for the
 ballroom swing and stands on the Left at the end of it (it's the Lark!)
 The Robin extends their Right arm for that swing and ends it standing
 on the Right.”

 Cincinnati OH: https://www.facebook.com/GFCinci/
 Not running?

 Concord MA: http://mondaycontras.com/
 Larks+Robins

 Concord MA: http://www.neffa.org/Thurs.html
 Larks+Robins

 Denver CO: http://www.cfootmad.org
 Not mentioned

 Edinburgh Scotland: https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghContra/
 Larks+Robins

 Glen Echo MD: https://www.facebook.com/ContraSonic/
 Not running?

 Halifax Canada: https://www.facebook.com/HalifaxContraDances/
 Larks+Ravens
 They seem to have a new website too: https://www.halifaxcontra.ca/

 Hayward CA: https://sfbaycontra.org/
 Not mentioned

 Jamaica Plain MA: http://www.lcfd.org/jp/
 

[Organizers] Re: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

ent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers_wl=ym_sub1=Internal_sub2=Global_YGrowth_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:21 PM, Joe Harrington via Organizers
>  wrote:
> While I'm happy to comply with any COVID policy in order to dance, and I
> choose to wear a mask at bigger events, I question whether the contra
> communities' strict policies are doing us much good, either in protecting
> us medically or in getting dances going again. Consider:
>
> 1. Even in the most restricted states (New England, etc.), nearly everyone
> is maskless nearly all the time in normal life, including most dancers.
> People eat in very crowded restaurants, ride public transportation, fly on
> airplanes, sit in airports, go shopping, work, attend school, do sports, go
> to the gym, sing, interact with friends and family members who have been
> out in the community maskless, etc., mostly without masks.
>
> 2. As a result of #1, covid is spreading quite effectively in our
> communities, even if a few groups are still masking.
>
> 3. As a result of #2, protocols at a dance cannot much alter community
> spread rates, even if the dance spread rate were zero.
>
> But, this isn't concerning most people because:
>
> 4. Vaccines do keep nearly every infected person out of the hospital and
> reduce long covid.
>
> 5. For those going to the hospital or suspected to be at risk, monoclonal
> and other treatments are quite effective.
>
> 6. As a result, the mortality of covid-19 is now down to three times that
> of a bad flu season, which is way down from the mass carnage of 2020.
>
> It is questionable what anything but masking is doing for us:
>
> 7. Unmasked contra dancing, even with a vaccine and negative test, does
> lead to rapid covid spread. Several camps in summer 2022 had 50+ infected
> dancers, even though they were all vaccinated and all had tested negative
> on arrival. The incubation period and false-negative rate are enough to
> allow one or two cases through, and the vaccine no longer keeps you from
> getting it, it just dramatically reduces severity.
>
> Since:
>
> 8. Even in the most conservative, vaccine-averse Southern communities,
> 90+% of contra dancers at big events say they are vaccinated (per survey at
> Summer Contradancers Delight Holiday in Tennessee).
>
> 9. Choosing to wear a mask remains an option for everyone, and is quite
> effective at keeping the wearer healthy, though it is not foolproof (but
> neither is life).
>
> And:
>
> 10. People have options for recreational and social activities, and many
> are choosing those with fewer or no restrictions, especially young people
> who don't have much personal risk from covid.
>
> 11. Essentially all other organized dance communities besides
> contra/English/etc. are dancing without restrictions on a national level,
> and have been since early 2022: Square, swing, blues, ballroom, salsa,
> tango, etc.
>
> It may therefore be time for communities to reconsider absolute
> restrictions, and instead encourage vaccination and mask-wearing as
> effective ways to stop the spread of diseases like covid, but also the flu,
> RSV, and other pathogens.
>
> People can still (and I do) choose to wear masks if they are concerned
> about getting covid. The idea of reducing spread at dances would be a good
> one if the rest of society were playing along. But, it isn't.  When I was a
> teen, I boycotted China. China didn't change.
>
> Communities with a large component of at-risk dancers who mask in general
> life and who are vaccinated may wish to continue requiring vax+mask.  In
> areas with many dancers, two dances, one requiring masks and one
> mask-optional, may make the most sense.
>
> I am especially concerned at the reduced percentage of younger dancers I
> have seen at recent events. While it seemed, prepandemic, that there was a
> nascent resurgence in the popularity of contra among the current
> twentysomethings, few of the young dancers I used to see are showing up to
> dances post-covid. When I go to swing and blues, there are lots of younger
> dancers.  I am certain that if we required masks at my college contra
> dance, students would just go to ballroom, salsa, or swing.
>
> If we want to get contra going again, and especially if we want to attract
> many new younger dancers, who are not worried that getting covid represents
> a big risk to them and who have plenty of unrestricted options in
> recreational activities, perhaps it's time not to ask, "does this policy
> stop covid from transmitting at our dance," but rather, "does this policy
> significantly lower the total c

[Organizers] Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

While I'm happy to comply with any COVID policy in order to dance, and I
choose to wear a mask at bigger events, I question whether the contra
communities' strict policies are doing us much good, either in protecting
us medically or in getting dances going again. Consider:

1. Even in the most restricted states (New England, etc.), nearly everyone
is maskless nearly all the time in normal life, including most dancers.
People eat in very crowded restaurants, ride public transportation, fly on
airplanes, sit in airports, go shopping, work, attend school, do sports, go
to the gym, sing, interact with friends and family members who have been
out in the community maskless, etc., mostly without masks.

2. As a result of #1, covid is spreading quite effectively in our
communities, even if a few groups are still masking.

3. As a result of #2, protocols at a dance cannot much alter community
spread rates, even if the dance spread rate were zero.

But, this isn't concerning most people because:

4. Vaccines do keep nearly every infected person out of the hospital and
reduce long covid.

5. For those going to the hospital or suspected to be at risk, monoclonal
and other treatments are quite effective.

6. As a result, the mortality of covid-19 is now down to three times that
of a bad flu season, which is way down from the mass carnage of 2020.

It is questionable what anything but masking is doing for us:

7. Unmasked contra dancing, even with a vaccine and negative test, does
lead to rapid covid spread. Several camps in summer 2022 had 50+ infected
dancers, even though they were all vaccinated and all had tested negative
on arrival. The incubation period and false-negative rate are enough to
allow one or two cases through, and the vaccine no longer keeps you from
getting it, it just dramatically reduces severity.

Since:

8. Even in the most conservative, vaccine-averse Southern communities, 90+%
of contra dancers at big events say they are vaccinated (per survey at
Summer Contradancers Delight Holiday in Tennessee).

9. Choosing to wear a mask remains an option for everyone, and is quite
effective at keeping the wearer healthy, though it is not foolproof (but
neither is life).

And:

10. People have options for recreational and social activities, and many
are choosing those with fewer or no restrictions, especially young people
who don't have much personal risk from covid.

11. Essentially all other organized dance communities besides
contra/English/etc. are dancing without restrictions on a national level,
and have been since early 2022: Square, swing, blues, ballroom, salsa,
tango, etc.

It may therefore be time for communities to reconsider absolute
restrictions, and instead encourage vaccination and mask-wearing as
effective ways to stop the spread of diseases like covid, but also the flu,
RSV, and other pathogens.

People can still (and I do) choose to wear masks if they are concerned
about getting covid. The idea of reducing spread at dances would be a good
one if the rest of society were playing along. But, it isn't.  When I was a
teen, I boycotted China. China didn't change.

Communities with a large component of at-risk dancers who mask in general
life and who are vaccinated may wish to continue requiring vax+mask.  In
areas with many dancers, two dances, one requiring masks and one
mask-optional, may make the most sense.

I am especially concerned at the reduced percentage of younger dancers I
have seen at recent events. While it seemed, prepandemic, that there was a
nascent resurgence in the popularity of contra among the current
twentysomethings, few of the young dancers I used to see are showing up to
dances post-covid. When I go to swing and blues, there are lots of younger
dancers.  I am certain that if we required masks at my college contra
dance, students would just go to ballroom, salsa, or swing.

If we want to get contra going again, and especially if we want to attract
many new younger dancers, who are not worried that getting covid represents
a big risk to them and who have plenty of unrestricted options in
recreational activities, perhaps it's time not to ask, "does this policy
stop covid from transmitting at our dance," but rather, "does this policy
significantly lower the total covid risk our dancers face?"

I argue that strict policies no longer do that, given our behavior in
society.  Nonetheless, those of us who are concerned can still choose to
reduce our own risk substantially by being vaccinated and wearing a
well-fitting KN95 or better mask whenever we are in a crowd, including at
dances, without requiring it of others.  I do.

Thanks,

--jh--
Joe Harrington
Organizer, Greater Orlando Contra Dance
Faculty Advisor, Contra Knights, the UCF contra dancing club
contraknights.org
FB, Ig: Contra Knights
contradancer...@gmail.com
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[Organizers] Re: Performer "Testing to Unmask" Policy Timing

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

I know we all hate them, but some dances are still requiring masks.  Has
there been documented spread at a dance where everyone is in a (K)N95 or
better, like a Breeze 99?  How about vax+mask or vax+test+mask?  I think we
all know that vax+test-mask=spread, from numerous events this past summer
and since.

I'd also be interested in a professional opinion on whether our gyrations
mean anything if we're not also masking full time when we're out and
about.  I know the theory, dance is more breathing and close up for a long
time, but the new variants are so infectious that I wonder if that
matters.  If you're getting 10x the infectious dose in the grocery store,
protection during a dance wouldn't matter much.  It's like locking the
doors and leaving all the windows open.  But, maybe it's 0.1x the
infectious dose at the grocery, and our measures do matter.  I'm only
interested in data, not speculation.  Does anyone have any?

--jh--


On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 4:37 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> My wife got covid at Roanoke Railroader last summer and I got it from her.
> I researched then (so relevant to variants then, not necessarily current
> variants)
> and most transmission occurs 1 to 2 days before testing to 2 to 3 days
> after testing.
> I don't know if that is relevant to this discussion because ...
> I assume most people test when they start to feel different from normal
> health ...
> which might explain the "1 to 2 days before testing" transmission
> and that's different from a "test regardless of how you feel to dance"
> testing policy.
> But, I do not know that. That just happens to be the data.
>
> Turkey Quicky, a mini-weekend, fortunately escaped covid spread though
> someone tested positive Saturday morning after dancing Friday night.
> (most dancers were unmasked)
> A KY weekend dance before TQ had a roughly 20% covid
> spread with a recent negative test and a negative test on entry policy.
>
> I'm not saying what policy should or should not be enacted to
> prevent the spread of covid. I'm just noting one official statistic
> and two recent weekend dances data points.
>
> -Heitzso
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>
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[Organizers] Re: Some examples of COVID policies

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

I am on your side, John, but Merriam-Webster is not. Major dictionaries now
include “an initialism” or words describing one, as the second definition
of “acronym “. Language evolves. Sadly, sometimes.

acronym noun 
Save Word 

To save this word, you'll need to log in.
Log In

ac·​ro·​nym |  \ ˈa-krə-ˌnim

 \
Definition of acronym

: a word (such as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or
letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
also  : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters :
INITIALISM 
—jh—


On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 6:11 PM John Sweeney via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Acronym: “An abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words
> and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA, radar, UNICEF, laser)”.
>
>
>
> Snafu, below, is an acronym.  Most of the rest are just abbreviations. If
> you can’t pronounce it, then it is not an acronym.
>
>
>
> My apologies for interrupting this thread, but I love the word, and the
> concept, and hate to see it being misused! :-)
>
>
>
> Happy dancing,
>
>John
>
>
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
>
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
> Ceilidhs
>
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
>
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Don Veino via Organizers 
> *Sent:* 05 October 2022 20:01
> *To:* Paul Rosenberg ; A list for dance organizers <
> organiz...@sharedweight.net>
> *Subject:* [Organizers] Re: Some examples of COVID policies
>
>
>
> TBH, I'm ROTFL. FWIW, IMO I think BTBA's SNAFU needs addressing IRL - how
> did COVID and NY pass your filter? SMH. LOL. IDK, but YOLO and I think it's
> NBD when a post gives you all the information spelled out and the
> insignificant bit is an acronym. But NWM, IAG! CYA on the flip side, TTYL.
> JK. ;-)
>
>
>
> -DV
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>
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[Organizers] Re: Some examples of COVID policies

[Joe Harrington via Organizers]

Actually, I read Donald Perley's comment apolitically, not as a statement
that policies should recognize COVID's severe threat to humanity and thus
be severe themselves (that's politics), but rather that the severity of
COVID in your community at any given moment varies, and so should your
policy, for example, to relieve the stress on hospitals.

For example, Contra Knights in Orlando is a new group that just started
holding public dances this summer.  It is illegal here to require
vaccination ($5000 fine per person denied, per occurrence, even if you're
an unincorporated association or a nonprofit), and there is significant
local resistance to mask requirements. So our policy is to recommend masks,
to supply KN95s free, to require masks if the case numbers spike, and to
cancel dances if the hospitals are stressed, on the presumption that we
WILL spread COVID if it's around and adding to hospital stress would be
particularly bad.

We don't advertise that on our website, we just do it.  When BA.4/5 started
spiking this summer, we required masks and said that we very strongly urged
and expected vaccines, and asked unvaccinated people not to come.  But, we
didn't check cards or refuse anyone admission, so we were compliant with
the law.  Attendance was 30% lower at that dance than the prior one, and I
heard it from unvaccinated people, but hospitals were starting to get
stressed.  A month later, we were back to merely recommending masks, as the
numbers had gone down and hospitals were no longer stressed.

--jh--
Joe Harrington
Organizer, Greater Orlando Contra Dance
Faculty Advisor, Contra Knights, the UCF contra dancing club
contraknights.org
FB, Ig: Contra Knights
contradancer...@gmail.com


On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 4:25 PM Jeff Kaufman via Organizers <
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I agree that how important it is to avoid getting or spreading covid
> should be a major driver of dance policies.  But I don't think this list is
> a good place for discussion evaluating that importance: there's no "dance
> organizer" perspective on that, so there's not much reason to have the
> discussion here.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 4:05 PM Ron Blechner  wrote:
>
>> Seconding Donald's comments.
>>
>> If this were about say, dealing with harassers, or an alcohol policy, or
>> any other safety issue, my assumption is that we wouldn't be looking to
>> avoid discussion if there was a major difference on the perception of harm
>> or danger.
>>
>> This is one of the few places online where people mostly still are being
>> fairly civil; those "other places" I've almost entirely left or muted
>> because the debate has been so hostile. In contrast, what I read here are
>> people of some fairly differing opinions and no one is shouting or making
>> personal attacks.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022, 3:18 PM Donald Perley via Organizers <
>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> How serious COVID is should be the driving force behind any COVID policy.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022, 2:03 PM Jeff Kaufman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Discussion of covid policies and implementation are a good fit for this
 list.

 Discussion of how organizations have navigated conflicting needs and
 preferences around covid in their communities is also good fit for this
 list.

 General "how seriously should you take covid at this point" discussion
 is not a good fit: there are lots of other places to have that debate.

 Jeff

 On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 1:39 PM Donald Perley via Organizers <
 organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Re COVID in general in the US, we are still seeing around 500 deaths
> per day.
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 4:29 PM John Sweeney via Organizers
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Is COVID still that much of a problem in the USA?
> >
> > Our current policy is:
> > "Vaccinations and LFTs are appreciated, but not required. Please
> stay at home if you have symptoms of COVID-19 or you feel unwell in any
> other way."
> >
> > We still provide sanitisers and remind people to use them.
> We have never required masks as they can be counter-productive when
> exercising. We have been dancing again since July 20th 2021, when lockdown
> ended.
> >
> > I don't know of any UK dance organisations that take any
> more precautions than us.
> >
> > Happy dancing,
> >John
> >
> > John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
> 07802 940 574
> > http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
> > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> > http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > To