RE: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? Mm, I saw something similar (2 years in C# 4.0 or something). It's arguably interesting. I mean, there are a few solutions to the problem: 1/ Recruiters hire programmers to vet all their jobs ad's - Cons: Expensive, time consuming - Pros: Hopefully acurate 2/ Recruiters do research themselves and get everything correct - Even more time consuming than the above, and probably less accurate 3/ Recruiters take requirements from clients, publish them in an 'appropriate fashion' and hope people 'get the idea' - Current process 4/ Some magical scheme whereby the positions are posted in such a way that errors are impossible (i.e. the job website deals with it), or any other scheme I can't think of - Not currently available Clearly, the most likely situation is 3. If only for the reason that it applies to all fields and not only programming. I think we can all agree that there is, generally, a different set of skills required in the recruiting business as compared to the given business they recruit in. As a pipe to the companies they are arguably efficient (from both ends). Now, if people are being rejected by recruiters for not *having* 10 years experience in .NET N.M, then that's not good. But in my experience, this is not the case. I hope I've bored you enough with this response. I'll go back to watching Star Trek now. -- silky Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy — the joy of being this signature.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
Get this: Back in 2004 I remember ads asking for at least 5 years experience in .net I guess the way it works is that they have a template for job X and Junior and Senior roles differ by Y years of experince. And let Z be the smallest number such that after Z years a junior programmer is automagically transmuted into a seior developer! Now instead of X substitue Pascal, Delphi, C , C++ and let Y be equal 5 and Z also equal 5 then that add you saw will be : Senior Role 5-10 Years in Pascal/Delphi/C/C++/Assembly/Binary Machine coder HR is not about dealing with specifics but dealing with human cattle statistically, and statistically it works often enough that it is devleared that it just works. Regards Arjang On 29 July 2010 23:15, Les Hughes l...@datarev.com.au wrote: I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? -- Les Hughes l...@datarev.com.au
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
I guess if you were playing with the Alpha and Beta releases of .Net 4, then it's possible you've got about 2 yrs experience with it.. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:39 PM, silky michaelsli...@gmail.com wrote: I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? Mm, I saw something similar (2 years in C# 4.0 or something). It's arguably interesting. I mean, there are a few solutions to the problem: 1/ Recruiters hire programmers to vet all their jobs ad's - Cons: Expensive, time consuming - Pros: Hopefully acurate 2/ Recruiters do research themselves and get everything correct - Even more time consuming than the above, and probably less accurate 3/ Recruiters take requirements from clients, publish them in an 'appropriate fashion' and hope people 'get the idea' - Current process 4/ Some magical scheme whereby the positions are posted in such a way that errors are impossible (i.e. the job website deals with it), or any other scheme I can't think of - Not currently available Clearly, the most likely situation is 3. If only for the reason that it applies to all fields and not only programming. I think we can all agree that there is, generally, a different set of skills required in the recruiting business as compared to the given business they recruit in. As a pipe to the companies they are arguably efficient (from both ends). Now, if people are being rejected by recruiters for not *having* 10 years experience in .NET N.M, then that's not good. But in my experience, this is not the case. I hope I've bored you enough with this response. I'll go back to watching Star Trek now. -- silky Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy — the joy of being this signature.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
On 29 July 2010 23:15, Les Hughes l...@datarev.com.au wrote: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? Recruiters are sales people - same as car and real estate sales people (but arguably less ethical). I'd say that ad was targeted at their customer (omfg you're so important we'll get someone with 10 years experience) more than any potential recruits. In my experience that don't actually qualify people for jobs properly and actively coach them for interviews (to close a sale). David. PS: If you were a crappy software engineer after 2-3 years experience in C#, another 7-8 is unlikely to help you. -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Software Engineer Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
RE: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
Perhaps they were targeting Microsoft employees? I've definitely had 2 years experience with .NET 4.0. ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Grant Molloy Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:29 PM To: michaelsli...@gmail.com; ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters I guess if you were playing with the Alpha and Beta releases of .Net 4, then it's possible you've got about 2 yrs experience with it.. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:39 PM, silky michaelsli...@gmail.commailto:michaelsli...@gmail.com wrote: I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? Mm, I saw something similar (2 years in C# 4.0 or something). It's arguably interesting. I mean, there are a few solutions to the problem: 1/ Recruiters hire programmers to vet all their jobs ad's - Cons: Expensive, time consuming - Pros: Hopefully acurate 2/ Recruiters do research themselves and get everything correct - Even more time consuming than the above, and probably less accurate 3/ Recruiters take requirements from clients, publish them in an 'appropriate fashion' and hope people 'get the idea' - Current process 4/ Some magical scheme whereby the positions are posted in such a way that errors are impossible (i.e. the job website deals with it), or any other scheme I can't think of - Not currently available Clearly, the most likely situation is 3. If only for the reason that it applies to all fields and not only programming. I think we can all agree that there is, generally, a different set of skills required in the recruiting business as compared to the given business they recruit in. As a pipe to the companies they are arguably efficient (from both ends). Now, if people are being rejected by recruiters for not *having* 10 years experience in .NET N.M, then that's not good. But in my experience, this is not the case. I hope I've bored you enough with this response. I'll go back to watching Star Trek now. -- silky Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy - the joy of being this signature.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
Years back when I came to Australia I applied to a job that required 5 years on VC++ Experience (which I had). During the interview the guy noticed I had in my CV the position of Technical Team Lead [for a 8 person team] Senior Dev that I had for 5 years doing VC++ and asked me: - How much of your time was dedicated to being the TTL of the team? - About 20-30% I said. 10 seconds later he said: - Well, you can't say you have 5 years of VC++ Experience then. You only have 4! As you spend the rest as TTL WTFF? Well, most of the requiters are just paper movers and people filters. I know very few of them that are able to do a more than basic interview. When you go to the interview with a recruiter be bold, strong, sure on yourself and trash him with your experience. If you heard of a technology you are good with it if you used it you are highly experienced with it and if you are really good you are more than a field expert. Just present them everything +30% ... They wouldn't be able to figure it out anyway. Happy Friday, Corneliu. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:15 PM, Les Hughes l...@datarev.com.au wrote: I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? -- Les Hughes l...@datarev.com.au
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
He was very serious about it and quite a bit upset as he considered I was lying in my application that I have the 5y experience. I also failed the job because of that :) (not 5y xp) Oh well, sh*** happens everyday Corneliu. On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.comwrote: On 30 July 2010 09:30, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: Years back when I came to Australia I applied to a job that required 5 years on VC++ Experience (which I had). During the interview the guy noticed I had in my CV the position of Technical Team Lead [for a 8 person team] Senior Dev that I had for 5 years doing VC++ and asked me: - How much of your time was dedicated to being the TTL of the team? - About 20-30% I said. 10 seconds later he said: - Well, you can't say you have 5 years of VC++ Experience then. You only have 4! As you spend the rest as TTL If there would ever be a book on Programmers Anecdotes that needs to be in it. Was he puling your leg with that comment? or trying to haggle you down for salary? PS: Thanks for sharing, reality can be stranger than fiction.
RE: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
3/ Recruiters take requirements from clients, publish them in an 'appropriate fashion' and hope people 'get the idea' - Current process But then won't they expect you to have the required 5-10 years with a 4 year old technology on your CV...? Essentially they are requiring you to be a liar to get the job. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Grant Molloy Sent: Friday, 30 July 2010 6:29 AM To: michaelsli...@gmail.com; ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters I guess if you were playing with the Alpha and Beta releases of .Net 4, then it's possible you've got about 2 yrs experience with it.. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:39 PM, silky michaelsli...@gmail.commailto:michaelsli...@gmail.com wrote: I was at an Australian (alleged) News site where they have job ads from their sister sites/sponsors in one of the columns, one was for a Senior .NET Role, so I thought I'd have a sticky beak... The first requirement was: 5-10 years in C#.Net 2.0-3.5 VS2005 release was October 2005, with the 2.0 Framework Redistributable made available in Jan 2006 Why why why? Mm, I saw something similar (2 years in C# 4.0 or something). It's arguably interesting. I mean, there are a few solutions to the problem: 1/ Recruiters hire programmers to vet all their jobs ad's - Cons: Expensive, time consuming - Pros: Hopefully acurate 2/ Recruiters do research themselves and get everything correct - Even more time consuming than the above, and probably less accurate 3/ Recruiters take requirements from clients, publish them in an 'appropriate fashion' and hope people 'get the idea' - Current process 4/ Some magical scheme whereby the positions are posted in such a way that errors are impossible (i.e. the job website deals with it), or any other scheme I can't think of - Not currently available Clearly, the most likely situation is 3. If only for the reason that it applies to all fields and not only programming. I think we can all agree that there is, generally, a different set of skills required in the recruiting business as compared to the given business they recruit in. As a pipe to the companies they are arguably efficient (from both ends). Now, if people are being rejected by recruiters for not *having* 10 years experience in .NET N.M, then that's not good. But in my experience, this is not the case. I hope I've bored you enough with this response. I'll go back to watching Star Trek now. -- silky Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy - the joy of being this signature.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
hahaha, and we all know what a mistake he made, hey Corneliu? Obviously missed asking the right questions and missed an exceptional candidate. My experience a few years ago with recruiters was seeing a whole lot of ads on seek asking for developers, and then having the exact same recruiters contact me and ask me if I could _place_ the developers they found. So no real jobs afterall. Seems to happen quite often, even these days. Buzz, no! T. On Fri, Jul 30th, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: He was very serious about it and quite a bit upset as he considered I was lying in my application that I have the 5y experience. I also failed the job because of that :) (not 5y xp) Oh well, sh*** happens everyday Corneliu. On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.comwrote: On 30 July 2010 09:30, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: Years back when I came to Australia I applied to a job that required 5 years on VC++ Experience (which I had). During the interview the guy noticed I had in my CV the position of Technical Team Lead [for a 8 person team] Senior Dev that I had for 5 years doing VC++ and asked me: - How much of your time was dedicated to being the TTL of the team? - About 20-30% I said. 10 seconds later he said: - Well, you can't say you have 5 years of VC++ Experience then. You only have 4! As you spend the rest as TTL If there would ever be a book on Programmers Anecdotes that needs to be in it. Was he puling your leg with that comment? or trying to haggle you down for salary? PS: Thanks for sharing, reality can be stranger than fiction.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
The recruitment industry does have a code of conduct to which most agree. Part of that code is not to post jobs that don't exist, however, doing so seems to be common practice. I look forward to the demise of the recruitment industry. They don't appear to add any value other than a possible legal buffer in the event of a PI incident. On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:07 PM, ton...@tpg.com.au wrote: hahaha, and we all know what a mistake he made, hey Corneliu? Obviously missed asking the right questions and missed an exceptional candidate. My experience a few years ago with recruiters was seeing a whole lot of ads on seek asking for developers, and then having the exact same recruiters contact me and ask me if I could _place_ the developers they found. So no real jobs afterall. Seems to happen quite often, even these days. Buzz, no! T. On Fri, Jul 30th, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: He was very serious about it and quite a bit upset as he considered I was lying in my application that I have the 5y experience. I also failed the job because of that :) (not 5y xp) Oh well, sh*** happens everyday Corneliu. On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.comwrote: On 30 July 2010 09:30, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: Years back when I came to Australia I applied to a job that required 5 years on VC++ Experience (which I had). During the interview the guy noticed I had in my CV the position of Technical Team Lead [for a 8 person team] Senior Dev that I had for 5 years doing VC++ and asked me: - How much of your time was dedicated to being the TTL of the team? - About 20-30% I said. 10 seconds later he said: - Well, you can't say you have 5 years of VC++ Experience then. You only have 4! As you spend the rest as TTL If there would ever be a book on Programmers Anecdotes that needs to be in it. Was he puling your leg with that comment? or trying to haggle you down for salary? PS: Thanks for sharing, reality can be stranger than fiction. -- Liam McLennan. l...@eclipsewebsolutions.com.au http://www.eclipsewebsolutions.com.au
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
Then maybe you should have asked him ... and how many years driving experience do you have? and then get him to do the math ;-) -- Neale NOON On 30 July 2010 10:04, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: He was very serious about it and quite a bit upset as he considered I was lying in my application that I have the 5y experience. I also failed the job because of that :) (not 5y xp) Oh well, sh*** happens everyday Corneliu. On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.comwrote: On 30 July 2010 09:30, Corneliu I. Tusnea corne...@acorns.com.au wrote: Years back when I came to Australia I applied to a job that required 5 years on VC++ Experience (which I had). During the interview the guy noticed I had in my CV the position of Technical Team Lead [for a 8 person team] Senior Dev that I had for 5 years doing VC++ and asked me: - How much of your time was dedicated to being the TTL of the team? - About 20-30% I said. 10 seconds later he said: - Well, you can't say you have 5 years of VC++ Experience then. You only have 4! As you spend the rest as TTL If there would ever be a book on Programmers Anecdotes that needs to be in it. Was he puling your leg with that comment? or trying to haggle you down for salary? PS: Thanks for sharing, reality can be stranger than fiction.
Re: [OT] Friday - Recruiters
*golf claps* :) I'd rather push this idea the other way. Obviously 5 years experience is an approximation of the years in which you were experiencing the activity in questions. Perhaps decades would be a more beneficial unit. I've been developing for 13 years, that's 2 decades experience! Or perhaps one century! Oh, even better! My experience spans two millenia! ;) David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 15:40, noonie neale.n...@gmail.com wrote: Then maybe you should have asked him ... and how many years driving experience do you have? and then get him to do the math ;-) -- Neale NOON
