RE: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Hi Miriam - not about ve's, just hoping you received your birth photo's from me??? All the best Jo x -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miriam Hannay Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2004 1:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's Hi there list and especially megan, I also performed my own VE's in labour with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th sons. I was in the water and felt the need to have a tangible focus for my own progress. I told my midwife and she suggested I check for myself. I distinctly remember with Sam (no. 2) feeling a rush of exhilaration as I identified that my cervix was about 9 cm dilated and i could feel a fontanelle clearly pulsing under my middle finger. It was extraordinary, more women should be encouraged to become aware of their own bodies and the way they work. Also, while I support absolutely limiting the use of VE (listern to her NOISE, it will tell you), I feel much more confident as a mid student to perform a VE having done my own in labour! Miriam, Flinders uni Bmid. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Hi there list and especially megan, I also performed my own VE's in labour with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th sons. I was in the water and felt the need to have a tangible focus for my own progress. I told my midwife and she suggested I check for myself. I distinctly remember with Sam (no. 2) feeling a rush of exhilaration as I identified that my cervix was about 9 cm dilated and i could feel a fontanelle clearly pulsing under my middle finger. It was extraordinary, more women should be encouraged to become aware of their own bodies and the way they work. Also, while I support absolutely limiting the use of VE (listern to her NOISE, it will tell you), I feel much more confident as a mid student to perform a VE having done my own in labour! Miriam, Flinders uni Bmid. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Lovely, Miriam. I also encourage student midwives to feel their own cervix, to chart their own patterns of sexual responsiveness across their cycle, and to smell and observe their menstrual loss, etc in preparation for the intimate encounters they will have with women. This is empowering as well for them if they can get in touch with their body. However, there are a number of cultural constraints on this, and some feel really uncomfortable. In addition, culture has an impact on 'noise' in labour. I remember being completely caught out with a Hmong woman in labour who was culturally expected to exhibit no sign of being in labour, so my midwifery senses didn't pick it up until quite late in the labour. It's a myth that all women respond the same way across cultures and contexts to the physical process of labour, so what we see is not the mere biology but fully overlaid with all sorts of cultural ideas and practices. Having an understanding of the individual woman helps, as I found in caseload midwifery, but not always. We are infinitely fallible Trish Miriam Hannay wrote: Hi there list and especially megan, I also performed my own VE's in labour with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th sons. I was in the water and felt the need to have a tangible focus for my own progress. I told my midwife and she suggested I check for myself. I distinctly remember with Sam (no. 2) feeling a rush of exhilaration as I identified that my cervix was about 9 cm dilated and i could feel a fontanelle clearly pulsing under my middle finger. It was extraordinary, more women should be encouraged to become aware of their own bodies and the way they work. Also, while I support absolutely limiting the use of VE (listern to her NOISE, it will tell you), I feel much more confident as a mid student to perform a VE having done my own in labour! Miriam, Flinders uni Bmid. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] ve's
Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Stacey: A cervix is long before it has started effacing: that's when it feels almost like it does when non-pregnant: like a nose. First it shortens and may feel like a loose mouth or like a tight mouth: it is still thick but short it will become wafer thin in some women before much dilation starts. Theoretically primips do all their effacing before they start dilating where as a multip will often do both at once. You will hear the term multi os refferring to a cervix that is partially effaced(not long)and dilating ( thick: but stretchy). Reading back over that it is as clear as mud. I just hope it helps. marilyn - Original Message - From: Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:55 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Dear Stacey and All What Mary was saying is the same for me In my expereince of women centred birth and understanding of birth in non-medical holistic approach most women do not need any VEs infact a VE can stop a labour. A VE for a midwife should be like a thermometer used to confirm what you already know by looking, listening and being with the woman. There was/is an article in MIDRIS by Michel Odent peeling back the layers which attempts to look backward and explains that VE s were once/ARE an intervention in Natural labour! If midwives truly do support women centred care and birth as a normal life event then they need to look at the physiology and recognise that so much we accept as OK is an intervention! And as we strive to reduce the C/S rate so we should strive to reduce the interventions in a normal life event that our culture of hospital birth has led us to beleive are OK are not necessary and can interfere with the labours of many women. I think that needs to start with recognition that most women even in our culture given back confidence in their bodies hearts and minds can birth safely where they choose and with whom they choose! . This acknowledges that our medicalised childbirth induced fear about mothers and babies results in adrenaline and so most of our women start on the cascade of intervention before they are even pregnant. Then we others (including midwives) with our fear and related words and actions propel them to or over the edge sadly we not or rarely bring them back to what is possible and desirable for the majority a natural powerful birth!! Denise Hynd Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have. Margaret Mead - Original Message - From: Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 9:55 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] ve's
One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Hi Stacy, I'm a mid student too, I too have stuggled trying to get my head around various concepts (eg difference b/w legnth thickness). After having many many midwives explain it in different ways, the way that I understand it is that legnth thickness go hand in hand. A long cervix is a thick cervix. As the cervix begins to effaces, the cervical os is taken up it becomes shorter thins out to the point when it's completely effaced, rather than feeling like the tip of your nose, then, pursed lips (soft squishy), then like a thin rim of tissue in active labour. So really legnth thickness is just another discrpition of effacement readiness to labour. In the midwifery-led model that I've spent most of my time in hospital with, usually the only time we do VEs when we find or expect to find a long, thick, closed cervix (eg not having begun to efface) is with inductions (of which many VEs are but one of the many, many interventions that go along with induction). I'm not sure if that discription helps at all (somebody please clarify is you can!). Mayes Midwifery has good diagrams to help visualise. All the best, Jen 3rd year BMid, Melbourne --- Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] ve's
There is a fantastic chapter in Ina May Gasgin's new book about vaginal examinations. I would recommend that you find it and read. It really give some great information and guidance about vaginal examinations. Sally Westbury Homebirth Midwife It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for and empower her.-Judy Slome Cohain -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2004 9:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Yes, well said Megan. What a powerful imagine you've described in my mind of you in labour with your 4th! Thanks for sharing, Jen --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
