Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Hello Ramona, The current suggestion for why the sterile water injections work is tied to what is called the gate control theory of pain management. Nerve fibres can be classified or categorised according to their diameter and speed of conduction. The larger the diameter of the nerve fibre, the faster the speed of transmission. Myelinated nerve fibres transmit information faster than non myelinated fibres. In the peripheral nervous system there are myelinated nerve fibres, alpha-beta (very fast) and alpha-delta (fast) and unmyelinated nerve fibres known as C (slow) fibres. The alpha fibres are fast conductors, the C fibres slower conductors. In terms of pain transmission, fast fibres transmit sharp, well defined, localised sensations (touch plus sting of water injections). C fibres transmit slower, chronic, duller kinds of pain signals (baby's occiput/head on sacrum pressure/pain). The original gate-control theory proposed that a physiological gating mechanism operates within the spinal chord's dorsal grey matter. Sensory signals can only pass through these chemical 'gates' when the gates are open. The gates are opened by the release of neurotransmitters which excite the postsynaptic membrane of neurons, therefore transmitting pain signals within the ascending 'pain tracts'. The gate is closed by inhibitory neurotransmitters and the release of endogenous opiods. Touch/pressure etc stimulates the fast, big diameter alpha-beta nerve fibres, sensory signals are transmitted along with pain transmission via the slower alpha delta and C fibres; alpha beta fibres stimulate inhibitory neurons in the dorsal horn closing the gate to other slower sensory and pain related information (particularly C fibres). At the same time, descending information from the brain activate these same inhibitory interneurons which are also involved in the release of endogenous opiods. Mechano-reptors (touch receptors) respond to the whole variety of sensory stimuli such as touch, heat, width of stimulus, depth of stimulus etc. The skin is very rich in these receptors. That is why rubbing etc is helpful with backpain or any other kind of pain. The sting of the water injections stimulates many receptors, exciting both alpha fibres (transmitting touch and pain from the sting) and therefore is thought to slam those gates shut in the dorsal horn whilst the brain's feedback to the sensation of the sting is to release of endogenous endorphins. So the sacral water injections are thought to work because of the excitory action of the alpha beta fibres in closing the gates, the gates closure reinforced by inhibitory action from the brain in response to alpha delta firing and the release of endogenous opiods. It is important to use sterile water as sterile water has the greatest sting. Normal saline is hardly felt as the body is mainly salt water, therefore it doesn't excite the pathways to close the gates nor does it stimulate the release of endogenous opiods. Rubbing the spot of the sting also reduces the excitory nature of the sting - very tempting to rub, we love to help! But in this situation, it is counter productive. We want the sting - the sting is the thing that changes the painful stimuli sensation from deeper within the woman's back (head on sacrum), and lets the woman get on with labour. I hope I've managed to explain this sensibly! Its all fascinating stuff. I'm so grateful to Janice DeoCampo for bringing this to Australia from Sweden where her daughter had her baby and used this technique. Brilliant. warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: nunyara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:25 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi all! I was very interested to read about these sterile water injections. They sound a great alternative to other types of pain relief but I was wondering just how the sterile water works? Cheers Ramona Nunyara -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sue Cookson Sent: Friday, 24 November 2006 5:54 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Thanks Pauline, it would be great to receive the research on intradermal water injections, Sue Here in Colac we have a copy of the research, and findings, that was done to support the sterile h2o injections, if that would be of any help. Pauline - Original Message - From: Sue Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, I presented the intradermal protocol and GBS protocol to the CNC at Lismore the other day. She asked me if you could provide evidence to support the intradermal injections, but was interested in the concept. Anything
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Ooops, forgot to mention that this information about pain physiology comes from The third chapter Physiology of Pain by Sue Moore in the wonderful book Understanding Pain and its Relief in Labour. Sue Moore edited this book as well as writing several of the chapters. apologies for my omission. I added the information about the water injections. warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Heartlogic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hello Ramona, The current suggestion for why the sterile water injections work is tied to what is called the gate control theory of pain management. Nerve fibres can be classified or categorised according to their diameter and speed of conduction. The larger the diameter of the nerve fibre, the faster the speed of transmission. Myelinated nerve fibres transmit information faster than non myelinated fibres. In the peripheral nervous system there are myelinated nerve fibres, alpha-beta (very fast) and alpha-delta (fast) and unmyelinated nerve fibres known as C (slow) fibres. The alpha fibres are fast conductors, the C fibres slower conductors. In terms of pain transmission, fast fibres transmit sharp, well defined, localised sensations (touch plus sting of water injections). C fibres transmit slower, chronic, duller kinds of pain signals (baby's occiput/head on sacrum pressure/pain). The original gate-control theory proposed that a physiological gating mechanism operates within the spinal chord's dorsal grey matter. Sensory signals can only pass through these chemical 'gates' when the gates are open. The gates are opened by the release of neurotransmitters which excite the postsynaptic membrane of neurons, therefore transmitting pain signals within the ascending 'pain tracts'. The gate is closed by inhibitory neurotransmitters and the release of endogenous opiods. Touch/pressure etc stimulates the fast, big diameter alpha-beta nerve fibres, sensory signals are transmitted along with pain transmission via the slower alpha delta and C fibres; alpha beta fibres stimulate inhibitory neurons in the dorsal horn closing the gate to other slower sensory and pain related information (particularly C fibres). At the same time, descending information from the brain activate these same inhibitory interneurons which are also involved in the release of endogenous opiods. Mechano-reptors (touch receptors) respond to the whole variety of sensory stimuli such as touch, heat, width of stimulus, depth of stimulus etc. The skin is very rich in these receptors. That is why rubbing etc is helpful with backpain or any other kind of pain. The sting of the water injections stimulates many receptors, exciting both alpha fibres (transmitting touch and pain from the sting) and therefore is thought to slam those gates shut in the dorsal horn whilst the brain's feedback to the sensation of the sting is to release of endogenous endorphins. So the sacral water injections are thought to work because of the excitory action of the alpha beta fibres in closing the gates, the gates closure reinforced by inhibitory action from the brain in response to alpha delta firing and the release of endogenous opiods. It is important to use sterile water as sterile water has the greatest sting. Normal saline is hardly felt as the body is mainly salt water, therefore it doesn't excite the pathways to close the gates nor does it stimulate the release of endogenous opiods. Rubbing the spot of the sting also reduces the excitory nature of the sting - very tempting to rub, we love to help! But in this situation, it is counter productive. We want the sting - the sting is the thing that changes the painful stimuli sensation from deeper within the woman's back (head on sacrum), and lets the woman get on with labour. I hope I've managed to explain this sensibly! Its all fascinating stuff. I'm so grateful to Janice DeoCampo for bringing this to Australia from Sweden where her daughter had her baby and used this technique. Brilliant. warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: nunyara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:25 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi all! I was very interested to read about these sterile water injections. They sound a great alternative to other types of pain relief but I was wondering just how the sterile water works? Cheers Ramona Nunyara -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sue Cookson Sent: Friday, 24 November 2006 5:54 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Thanks Pauline, it would be great to receive the research on intradermal water injections, Sue Here
RE: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Hi all! I was very interested to read about these sterile water injections. They sound a great alternative to other types of pain relief but I was wondering just how the sterile water works? Cheers Ramona Nunyara -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sue Cookson Sent: Friday, 24 November 2006 5:54 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Thanks Pauline, it would be great to receive the research on intradermal water injections, Sue Here in Colac we have a copy of the research, and findings, that was done to support the sterile h2o injections, if that would be of any help. Pauline - Original Message - From: Sue Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, I presented the intradermal protocol and GBS protocol to the CNC at Lismore the other day. She asked me if you could provide evidence to support the intradermal injections, but was interested in the concept. Anything would be great - I haven't done looking myself as I'm just completing my degree. Did my last official birth last night - now for the portfolio and remaining assignments. Thanks, Sue Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic http://www.heartlogic.bizwww.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405 Chittaway Bay, NSW 2261 As a single footstep will not make a path in the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over again the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives Henry David Thoreau -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
I thought I'd better add that the women reflexively try to swat our hands away, it stings very much - and their response is very automatic and understandable. When we were learning we all practiced on each other so we know what it feels like! We talk to the women about how it will feel. We ask the women's partners to hold them as we do the injections, sometimes the partners get taken by surprise by the response, even when we explain what is likely to happen! BTW, I'm grateful to have so many colleagues write and show interest in the protocols, I'm overwhelmed by the response. Isn't it just wonderful that so many midwives are out there making a difference and exploring different ideas to help women and give women choice! What a great group of people you are. warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Heartlogic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Hi Carolyn, I presented the intradermal protocol and GBS protocol to the CNC at Lismore the other day. She asked me if you could provide evidence to support the intradermal injections, but was interested in the concept. Anything would be great - I haven't done looking myself as I'm just completing my degree. Did my last official birth last night - now for the portfolio and remaining assignments. Thanks, Sue Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic http://www.heartlogic.bizwww.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405 Chittaway Bay, NSW 2261 As a single footstep will not make a path in the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over again the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives Henry David Thoreau -- This mailing list is sponsored
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Here in Colac we have a copy of the research, and findings, that was done to support the sterile h2o injections, if that would be of any help. Pauline - Original Message - From: Sue Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, I presented the intradermal protocol and GBS protocol to the CNC at Lismore the other day. She asked me if you could provide evidence to support the intradermal injections, but was interested in the concept. Anything would be great - I haven't done looking myself as I'm just completing my degree. Did my last official birth last night - now for the portfolio and remaining assignments. Thanks, Sue Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic http://www.heartlogic.bizwww.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Thanks Pauline, it would be great to receive the research on intradermal water injections, Sue Here in Colac we have a copy of the research, and findings, that was done to support the sterile h2o injections, if that would be of any help. Pauline - Original Message - From: Sue Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, I presented the intradermal protocol and GBS protocol to the CNC at Lismore the other day. She asked me if you could provide evidence to support the intradermal injections, but was interested in the concept. Anything would be great - I haven't done looking myself as I'm just completing my degree. Did my last official birth last night - now for the portfolio and remaining assignments. Thanks, Sue Hello Andrea, thanks for your kind words. As for the sacral water injections, we have only used them for late first stage and second stage. So repeats haven't been an issue for us. Yes, it does sting, but all the women, bar one, found the injections wonderful. One of the women I saw for her three week postnatal visit and she voluntarily told me all about the injections with great wonder. I didn't know she had them, and when I asked her all about her experience with our service and the birth of her baby etc, she waxed lyrical about the change in sensation with the injections. Very interesting. And yes, because it stings so much, two midwives give the injection at the same time, the women would not let you do it again immediately after, they swat your hands away - or try to. :-) I appreciate the logic with giving them both at the same time. The midwives at JHH have been using them in the birth centre as well. They reckon the injections are great too. I haven't heard any feedback about the refusal for long labours, I'll check that out and get back to you. I'll send you the protocol from work, it's on my work computer, warmly, Carolyn - Original Message - From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
Hi Carolyn, It is so good to hear that Belmont is doing well - what a great standard bearer for midwifery and women! Can I ask you something about the sterile water injections? When I was in the Colac area earlier this year doing a workshop, I was told that although this method was brilliant at relieving the pain, especially with posterior labours, women were often reluctant to have the injections a second time, when the effects of the first round had worn off (it was suggested the effect would last for 2 -3 hours). I found this interesting, and speculated that the pain of the injections must have been bad, for women to think that a short lived sting would be worse than long painful contractions that often come with an OP labour. What has been your experience with doing follow up injections, especially during a long labour? I was also told that it was a good idea to have two midwives do the injections simultaneously - that way the pain was shorter (but presumably more intense with two injections being done at the same time). Can you shed any light on this aspect as well? Many thanks, Andrea PS I would love a copy of your protocol as well, if you email it me. At 02:00 AM 18/11/2006, you wrote: Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic http://www.heartlogic.bizwww.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405 Chittaway Bay, NSW 2261 As a single footstep will not make a path in the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over again the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives Henry David Thoreau -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
thank you Carolyn - its so good to hear how Belmont is setting up precendents for alternative practices to be used in the mainstream. Well done. I guess some would argue that offering another pain reliever rather than working with and understanding and not being afraid of normal pain is not purist midwifery...but then there is those awful backache OP labours which others would argue is not normal pain and if it works with a lot less side effects sounds very interesting. love suzi - Original Message - From: Heartlogic To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 2:00 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic www.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405 Chittaway Bay, NSW 2261 As a single footstep will not make a path in the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over again the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives Henry David Thoreau
Re: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections
So glad to hear that you have found them to be so worth while! We here in Colac love them too, Janice has done a great job of sharing this knowledge with fellow midwives! Pauline, - Original Message - From: Heartlogic To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 2:00 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Intradermal sacral sterile water injections Whilst I'm on the soapbox, I was thinking that you may be interested in the intradermal water injections and their efficacy. We had Janice Deocampo come to Belmont and give a seminar on the use of this technique for women with excruciating back pain. Midwives came from Gosford, Maitland, John Hunter and Taree. Janice presented her information and we all practised on each other (OUCH). It feels like a wasp sting. One of the midwives had back pain which was cured for six hours with the injection she received that day! It took us MONTHS to get the procedure through clinical governance. However, it is through. We have used the injections for about eight women since only one was not completely successful. We have even found them fantastic for late first stage when the backache has stopped the woman from progessing and even second stage when women wouldn't push because the backache was too bad. After the injections, voila - baby! John Hunter midwives are also now using this technique too with great success. Janice Deo Campo did a research project and the results are in the Birth Issues Journal from CAPERS. It is a wonderful, effective tool which may just help someone avoid an epidural or even make birth much more manageable for those women with excrutiating backache. If anyone wants the protocol and information sheet, please email me at work [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will send it to you. warmly, Carolyn Heartlogic www.heartlogic.biz Phone: +61 2 43893919 PO Box 5405 Chittaway Bay, NSW 2261 As a single footstep will not make a path in the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over again the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives Henry David Thoreau
