Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: in the end, people still choose to spend their time with certain art and not certain other art, and this is implicitly a judgement of value. those judgements are both relativables and an implicit necessity of the art world. [...] There are plenty of reasons one might spend their time with certain art and not certain other art, without making an implicit judgment about artistic value at all Yeah, my comment was not the whole story, but you know, when you're starting back from scratch after «nothing is better than anything else», how long and how detailed would you write immediately when you don't know whether you will get a reply? (area of expertise, access, medical condition, risk aversion to spending one's time examining new works, etc.). So why do you say this is an implicit necessity of the art world? I don't get it. Because I'm trying to say that even if everybody claimed that anything is as good as anything else, then there are still signs we can extract from observing people's behaviour, to figure out what is important to them, regardless of the words; and I'd say that this may also be a key concept to figure out what's going on when absolutism reigns, because in either case, the words bad and good and beautiful and ugly (etc) can't be used anymore for one's own opinions, as absolutism steals those words and total relativism trashes them, which both means that those words aren't yours, aren't mine, and they aren't anybody else's. Those things you are listing, are useful to consider for building new definitions of bad/good/beautiful/ugly/etc. There are several kinds of definitions that we might want to use, though. I might say that if an artwork is hidden from public view, then it makes it less valuable, and someone else may say that it makes it more valuable, and someone else may say it doesn't matter, and all three will successfully argue for three different kinds of value, and all of those ideas are different aspects of value in general. It's really hard to talk about these topics and be clear in that few words, though. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: Mathieu Bouchard escribió: Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? In a physical instrument the position of the body when playing modifies the dynamics of movements, so variations in the dynamics of movement produce also diferent dynamics of sound. If you press a key with a strong movement it will almost shurelly be different if you do it sitting on a chair, with your head and back aiming behind your gravitational center, that if you do it whith your body aiming foreward or if you do it standing on your feet. Yeah... well, I guess it's possible to imitate the natural playing style of any body position using any other body position, but then it would be a bit like ventriloquy. For example (in Spanish), the vowel A is open, vowels E+O are medium, and vowels I+U are closed, but what matters is the amount of opening in the mouth as a whole, not just the tongue or the jaw. You could do it with just the tongue and not the jaw, but it's more difficult and the only point is to give a different impression with the sound than what it looks like you'd be doing if you were talking normally. gives the musician a wider sound palette (Sorry, I am not shure if this is the word). sounds like a good word for that. Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. According to whom? Anyway, as any definition of art is possible while it must be contextualized, I agree that we could talk of other kinds of art where freedom is not important or does not exist at all. Yeah, the word art just like the word being and the word freedom, are used in many related and not-so-related ways by different people as tools to express their ideas and ideals. I admit right away that I don't know nothing about those philosophers' conception of art, but it sounds quite peculiar that they would claim such a thing... they surely use a non-recursive (non-transitive) definition of guided and conditioned, skipping over all the thinking about what guides or conditions the artist, which is nice if that's what they want to skip thinking about. Anyway, that's the thought that made me ask the question in the first place. If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... I was just joking and being metaphoric and rethoric. I know I know, but jokes are as meaningful as anything else, else we wouldn't bother saying them in the first place. Drugs usually come relatively late in the picture. They don't tend to make art more twisted, just more defective. They also don't have much to do with being twisted. Besides that, There have existed circunstances when drugs have been part of the creative environment and I wouldn´t agree that the results were defective. Yeah. For example, if a musician has a headache and is supposed to be recording right now, the musician takes aspirin. that's part of the creative process. But also, if the musician has adopted a «lifestyle» such that various substances of dubious usefulness have hijacked his/her dopamine subsystem, then a stable amount of those substances have to be taken in to support the creative process, else it becomes a process of frantically running around the city to find the appropriate shady people that support the musician's brain damage. I know what you mean, I just want to point to other realities that are probably taking most of the room that drugs are taking in this vocation. And I would say that defective is another relativable concept. Yeah, for example, drug users who argue that everything is alright end up changing their minds about it and start claiming that drugs made them lose years of productivity, lots of opportunities, ... they think it's relative, because it sounded like a good idea, then it sounded like it ok, then it sounded like it would be better without, then it sounded like it was a tremendous waste after all. it's all relative. and then there are those who you can only imagine wishing to claim the same, because they passed away. And as perception is not transferable, neither is poetic or aesthetic experience. Well, despite our frustrations with it, plain talking goes a long way transferring a lot of perception, experience, and other ideas. [...] I understand what you mean, but the fact is that perception is not fully transferable. If it was, there would be no difference between any sound/image and a description of it. You didn't say fully and in that case it doesn't mean the same at all. That gives us a lot of possibilities, none better than other, only differents. [...] There is no absoluteness, no central authority, but
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
I am not qualified to comment on this discussion, but I still will. Years ago I read the Ostertag article (saw him in Berkeley in '95 at Bean Benders and he was amazing), and this line stuck out: Of all the ways that computers have been applied to music, sampling has had the most radical impact. That statement has had significant impact on my thinking on approaching music and computers. I'm not defending the article. Just sayin' On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Lorenzo lsut...@libero.it wrote: http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. Kind regards, Lorenzo ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Sory for the big delay, but I was really busy. I will try to answer in between lines: Mathieu Bouchard escribió: On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: So they say that good piano players play with the whole body (same for guitar or any physical instrument, I guess). Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? In a physical instrument the position of the body when playing modifies the dynamics of movements, so variations in the dynamics of movement produce also diferent dynamics of sound. If you press a key with a strong movement it will almost shurelly be different if you do it sitting on a chair, with your head and back aiming behind your gravitational center, that if you do it whith your body aiming foreward or if you do it standing on your feet. Your finger´s pressing movement will be affected, and also the strength with which you keep pressing after that. Being able to administrate this variations gives the musician a wider sound palette (Sorry, I am not shure if this is the word). This expands the expressive possibilities of the performer as he then is able to subjetively transfer the meanings he gives to his body movements to the sound dynamics. In the following text please note that it says from the performer side and what music should express, not what it DOES express, neither from an objective view. I mean, I am trying not to take the subject to the interpretation from an observer-in-the-public point of view, and, I must say it again, this is not what everybody should do, but those that feel that they need to. ...different performances of the same piece can communicate different expressive inten- tions. Most music performances involve expressive inten- tions from the performer’s side, regarding what the mu- sic should “express” to the listeners. Consequently, in- terpretation involves assigning some kind of meaning to the music. (http://smc.afim-asso.org/smc05/papers/LucaMion/mapping.pdf) Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. According to whom? This subject is treated in aesthetic since the enlightement and romanticism, and maybe even before. You can read about this subject´s history (treated secondarily) in Simón Marchán Fiz´s La estética en la cultura moderna, from chapter III till the end. Other related subject might be Ludic Aesthetics. I don´t remember a more specific book. Marchan Fiz is related to the Frankfurt school. I don´t know how the freedom subject is treated by Analytic Aesthetics, but as a more-science-philosophy-related aesthetic perhaps it just does not treat it. Also in Post structuralist´s philosophy Freedom becomes an important subject that implies relationships with art, and of course in Existentialism, before that, so you might find usefull reading Heidegger or Sartre, or triyng to understand Foucault´s, Deleuze´s and Guattari´s art-related works. Furthermore, any statement about being required from the artist to give his own truth implies the concept of being the artist free. Anyway, as any definition of art is possible while it must be contextualized, I agree that we could talk of other kinds of art where freedom is not important or does not exist at all. If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... Drugs usually come relatively late in the picture. They don't tend to make art more twisted, just more defective. They also don't have much to do with being twisted. I was just joking and being metaphoric and rethoric. Besides that, There have existed circunstances when drugs have been part of the creative environment and I wouldn´t agree that the results were defective. And I would say that defective is another relativable concept. Of course in these three questions I was only having fun while being retoric, because relativity dismantles concepts as making a difference, quality, being emotionally involved and even academic or popular (history shows lots of examples that would complicate the difference between the last two). Dismantling and complicating are not the same thing. Being conscious of the relativity doesn't make those concepts less important and it doesn't break them. It just breaks down a lot of talk that uses those concepts: that which is vague, makes undue assumptions, etc. At the end, anything could be poetic, as it mostly depends on who we are at that right moment. It ends as a matter of self-perception. Right. And as perception is not transferable, neither is poetic or aesthetic experience. Well, despite our frustrations with it, plain talking goes a long way transferring a lot of perception, experience, and other ideas.
[PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: So they say that good piano players play with the whole body (same for guitar or any physical instrument, I guess). Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. According to whom? If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... Drugs usually come relatively late in the picture. They don't tend to make art more twisted, just more defective. They also don't have much to do with being twisted. Of course in these three questions I was only having fun while being retoric, because relativity dismantles concepts as making a difference, quality, being emotionally involved and even academic or popular (history shows lots of examples that would complicate the difference between the last two). Dismantling and complicating are not the same thing. Being conscious of the relativity doesn't make those concepts less important and it doesn't break them. It just breaks down a lot of talk that uses those concepts: that which is vague, makes undue assumptions, etc. At the end, anything could be poetic, as it mostly depends on who we are at that right moment. It ends as a matter of self-perception. Right. And as perception is not transferable, neither is poetic or aesthetic experience. Well, despite our frustrations with it, plain talking goes a long way transferring a lot of perception, experience, and other ideas. Calling perception non-transferable comes from either taking conversation as so much for granted that it doesn't count in the picture, or being very pessimistic about how well it can be effectively transferred. That gives us a lot of possibilities, none better than other, only differents. It's only all the same if you just don't care about the possibilities (or if you are trying to be diplomatic). In practice, people get involved in aesthetics because they are passionate about them, and they judge a lot. There is no absoluteness, no central authority, but there's still a lot of judgements and impressions of what is better and what is worse, and that's a necessity. It is also supposed that someone not educated would be more able to find poetic in anything, because for him anything would be different from anything he knows. People don't enter university as blank slates. That is why we commonly despise the creations of early students, forgetting that in history teachers stole several times the concepts of students that weren´t clever enough to realize the jewel they had in hands. Students are at a disadvantage here. They are not knowledgeable in the research-wise artistic discourse of profs, that is what profs are bathing in constantly, and so they don't know what is valuable to the profs. What is valuable to the profs doesn't make much sense to an outsider. It's probably more whim-oriented than most any other discipline (?). it was an interesting read. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.cawrote: On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: So they say that good piano players play with the whole body (same for guitar or any physical instrument, I guess). Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? Well, the word dance proposes a different kind of engagement to the kinds of actions we make when we perform, although it keeps the idea that the whole body resonates with sound (in sort of a more overt way than listening). I think what musicians are after is to forge a 'craft' or 'technique' that allows them to control sound as they intend to hear them; to attain the ability to control minute details according to what you are hearing as an almost immediate response. and continuing the dance resonance idea, it is somehow reversed: it is to want sound to resonate to our bodies. and to follow the feedback idea: it is to want sound to resonate to our bodies to resonate with sound to resonate to our bodiesloop Physical interaction is just the common way we interact with the world most of the time, and so it makes sense to want to control sound in that way too and it's just harder with computers, because we usually lack the right interfaces to do it. I think most of the appeal of live performances with physical interaction is that we share the same kind of bodies and perceptual systems and so we can relate to the way sounds are being produced/controlled. finally on the things about the whole body. well, it is hard to imagine a body which is separate than any of its parts or of the mind itself. I'm writing on a related subject so comments are appreciated... nice debate, J ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
of course music has to do with body and feedbacks ; knowing that the arbitrary distance between body and mind is quite cultural, what about cyborgs and cyborg's bodies ? fred chris clepper wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:39 PM, ydego...@gmail.com mailto:ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.com mailto:ydego...@gmail.com wrote: i like luc ferrari About 10-12 years ago I took Luc to a Chicago house club. He was really into dance music in the 90s, and not so much into 'computer music'. He was getting more inspiration from going to clubs than anything from IRCAM or GRM. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Hey guys, I just wanna say that in terms of live computer music, to me lack of physical interaction makes it totally boring for me. When I've mentioned this to some artists who's 'live performance' consists of them staring at a computer screen hitting buttons-maybe there'll be some arbitrary visual display if I'm lucky-I could tell they were thinking 'Philistine! go see a Pink concert if you want to see someone compensating for a complete lack of musical talent, artistry or substance with a dazzling live performance complete with the obligatory crowd-clapping breakdown-I'm solely and purely about the MUSIC being created, and if you were too, the sound would be enough for you'. But I reckon this attitude is, if I may be so bold, BULLSHIT. If that's your attitude fine, but in that case what's the point of a live performance at all (needless to say I'm not talking about installations or spatialised pieces)? When I go see a live performance, I wanna see someone creating the music, and to me, that means physically creating it in some way. I wanna see that their emotions or concentration or whatever is being used in their act of creation is so intense that I can see physical manifestations of it through their physical actions. I think the area of MIDIcontroller technology is so ignored, probably cause there's no market fo it cause of that dumb attitude. I wish someone would come up with some interesting physical controller that actually requires substantial physical effort to manipulate parameters, or at least could withstand and respond to it. At the end of the day I don't think a live performance IS about the music, no matter how good-it's about seeing someone pour themselves into creating music you like, seeing their effort and passion in every action they perform, and most importantly hearing those actions effect on the sound being produced. If I were King, I'd be taking advantage of computer musical capabilities to make physical instruments/controllers that take MORE physical actions than any actual acoustic/electric instrument could require-MUCH more. I dream of having a set-up where I have to run around, smashing stuff with hammers, pushing giant sliders with all my strength, etc-now THAT would be a live performance I'd enjoy. Let's get physical, and stop kidding ourselves-it matters ( . . . for live performance). Babsyco. Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:24:55 -0400 From: js0...@gmail.com To: fga...@gmail.com CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC hola thx for your thoughtful post. On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Fernando Gadea fga...@gmail.com wrote: 1- physical instruments well, yes; body, rhythm, instruments, music. but i think there is also something interesting in 'mental' music. or music that is achieved only through programming sounds. like those old vienese [and of course other places too] used to do with paper and pen ... 2- About academic-high culture-Art and popular-low culture-art this is a religious war- completely outside the bounds of rationality. and really, i don't care which 'club' an artist comes fro i just want their work to captivate me. what makes something art? how do we know if it is any good? there are no laws about this. people assert them periodically, but they are soon enough forgotten. -- \js [ - . . . ] ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _ Take a peek at other people's pay and perks Check out The Great Australian Pay Check http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:43:49 + babsyco babsyco babs...@hotmail.com wrote: If that's your attitude fine, but in that case what's the point of a live performance at all It's an fair question. The answer to that, for those of us that do livecoding type perfomances, is the accompanying visual display (usually back projected on a large screen) that lays bare the cognitive, rather than gestural/physical process. In this regard I take 'performance' to mean a demonstration of authenticity. Of course it's a narrow audience able to apprreciate what is going on, but it is a legitimate performance that exposes the artist to scrutiny, I dare say at least as much as playing a guitar, and more than playing a keyboard where your hands are hidden and nobody can be sure whether you are miming to a tape or sequence as so many popular artists do. a. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
john saylor escribi: hola hola john thx for your thoughtful post. thankyou for reading :) On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Fernando Gadea fga...@gmail.com wrote: 1- physical instruments well, yes; body, rhythm, instruments, music. but i think there is also something interesting in 'mental' music. or music that is achieved only through programming sounds. like those old vienese [and of course other places too] used to do with paper and pen ... Yes, of course there is something interesting and passionate in "mental" music too (if I could I would bring the last beethoven as a witness). I think that nobody programing in puredata (or csound or any other "think before" environment) could say something against that. I was only reffering to a personal need, because it is me who wants to have a physical composing/performing complement. I also believe that live coding certainly does require a lot of mental work as it is very close to live composing, and just willing to do it is enough demonstration of passion for me. May be what I didnt say but I should have, in order to make my point, was that I believe that a musician should be (or at least is allowed to be) absolutly selfish, meaning that he should not care (if he doesnt want to) about what others say he should do or behave like in a live situation. Lets say, he shouldnt care about others saying that "he misses rockroll" because he wants to be physical in performing, he shouldnt care about others saying "he is taking a stand up nap to a playlist", and so on. Musicians can (and sometimes do) choose even not to perform live, or even not to perform and only make studio editing art. If making what the public wants is the goal we might end in an eschizofrenic road (and no one in public will pay for your shrink). 2- About academic-high culture-Art and popular-low culture-art this is a religious war- completely outside the bounds of rationality. and really, i don't care which 'club' an artist comes from: i just want their work to captivate me. If he does I take it as a happy coincidence. If he does not I only hope the musician finds his proper public in order for him to be able to go on and feel happy sharing. what makes something art? how do we know if it is any good? there are no laws about this. people assert them periodically, but they are soon enough forgotten. I agree. Maybe it was not understood, but that was my point too. The only laws that fits what I think about it are "Art is what artists do" and "an artist is someone who feels that he is an artist" ydego...@gmail.com escribi: i really don't remember who brought that thing of 'end of computer music' on that list, i would mainly say, it's no good to limit oneself to computer music, and generally for me, it's not enough. Id rather say that anyone should be free to take the limitations they want to impose to themselves for a creative environment. i'm glad you quote Tarkowski and not another *kowski... i like pan sonic i like luc ferrari i like savage republic i'm going to see napalm death.. ( just in case someone is lost ) and i never said my taste was the absolute one... My mail wasnt a personal answer to you, but forgive me if somehow I made you think that. your arguments are not bad, but soo long, i just understood you would like a more physical interaction with the computer. saludos, sevy Yes, maybe I wrote too much and I should take care of that. thankyou for reading and answering :) . saludos, Best, Fernando _ Lets make sounds! (or images, or actions, or food, or whatever) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
She writes continually like a long nozzle spraying the air, and she argues continually; theres is nothing I can say that is really not something else, so, I stop saying and finally she argues herself out the door saying something like — I´m not trying to impress my self upon you. Charles Bukowski On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Daniel Wilcox danomat...@gmail.com wrote: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:43:49 + From: babsyco babsyco babs...@hotmail.com I think the area of MIDIcontroller technology is so ignored, probably cause there's no market fo it cause of that dumb attitude. I wish someone would come up with some interesting physical controller that actually requires substantial physical effort to manipulate parameters, or at least could withstand and respond to it. I am always surprised when people have no idea about my casio midi guitar when it's been around since the late 80s. At most they think it's a toy ... *sigh*. I'm disappointed that, at this day and age, I can't go buy a digital controller like this that's new without having to pay money++ aka ztar. I wish casio made these in wood+metal. I have 3 of them now so I can fix the two working ones if a part breaks. Oh boy thanks Roland .. I can buy a chaos kaoss pad. Woopty do. Oh boy Yamaha, I can buy your latest a greatest keytar reissue which is mostly for the 80's revivalists. Or better yet, I can drop $2000+ for a custom super tactile midi controller from [insert small german electronics company here] that most people play with feather fingers. *sigh* You can't blame just the musicians for making bad performances. Not everyone playing music is a hardware hacker, etc like many of us on the list, so unless more interfaces are available, then people won't use them. -- Dan Wilcox danomatika www.robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 16:19:09 -0300 From: Gabriel Vinazza gabevina...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC To: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 5d782c50909091219m50188513ga6a1babecab29...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 She writes continually like a long nozzle spraying the air, and she argues continually; theres is nothing I can say that is really not something else, so, I stop saying and finally she argues herself out the door saying something like ? I?m not trying to impress my self upon you. Charles Bukowski ... and spray I do. spray spray spray. How dare I add a particular opinion/link to a discussion. We are all objective here. Speaking of objective, here is the future of computer music anywayhttp://www.djhero.com/ . -- Dan Wilcox danomatika www.robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
I have been reading, silently, the discussion, which I have really enjoyed. Here are some thoughts: 1- physical instruments What I see in hardware/hands-in-stuff/instrumental music is what I learned at school as "haptic" knowledge: Something like body/muscles memory, that makes it possible to sculpt in mud a face in complete darkness, or draw a body for the first time without looking at a model (in case we are male, a male body. It wouldnt be the same drawing a body we dont haptically know). In this way of thought, darkness is an important concept, because we are talking about playing an instrument not referring our phisical acts to a visual knowledge. Learning piano (or guitar, flute, etc.) is suposed to be more haptic, meaning that it is not really learning where the keys are but learning how my arms, hands and fingers feel when I play certain key or sequence of keys until we do it naturally, as walking. So they say that good piano players play with the whole body (same for guitar or any physical instrument, I guess). I believe it is possible to get this haptic knowledge to start helping us in computer music, but for that I personally would aim for a less visual interface (thats why I am learning arduino now, in order to build a phisical controller that reflects at least some of my body possibilities without requesting my eyes to confirm anything). Nevertheless, when playing piano or guitar, the body must remember (eventhough it is not really simple) not a lot of stuff: where a note is, how to make it sound hard or soft, how to variate the sound in some other limitated ways. Computer music gives (or makes possible) a lot more parameters to be modifyable. In a complex work it wouldnt be impossible to find ourselves needing to tweek more values (sound properties-event shoots) than "body-tools" we have, and if we change the sound basis from time to time (playing several instruments at once, changing program...) the values we might want to change will perhaps also change. That means that we will need to teach our body for each interface landscape, and then, when playing live, switch between haptic knowledges on the run. Might sound as something complicated or fun, depending only of our mental flavour. 2- About academic-high culture-Art and popular-low culture-art Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. So the artist should not be naive in order to understand what are the forces surrounding his acts... and inside his acts. We are suposed to learn art in order to not being naive about our creation. After learning art, are we suposed to: - do only a particular kind of art? - do any kind of art but in a particular kind of way? - do any kind of art in any kind of way? If you answer yes to the first question, then probably you are an academic artist that despises popular art and its context, or you are a popular artist that rejects academic constrains or its context. If you answer yes to the second, then you might be an academic or popular artist, but what really matters to you is that you will try to make a difference in what ever you do in order to give a personal view that takes distance from "canned" productions. If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... what I really should have said was "if you answer yes to the third, then you probably dont mind about any quality rule and you just want to get a life doing whatever takes you to your goals while having some fun, but you seem not really emotionally involved with creation or you dont know what quality is, or your goals are not related with art history/world" Of course in these three questions I was only having fun while being retoric, because relativity dismantles concepts as "making a difference", "quality", "being emotionally involved" and even "academic" or "popular" (history shows lots of examples that would complicate the difference between the last two). The same happens with concepts like "poetic" or "aesthetic experience", but I will try to give them use in a non-absolut way to follow: Poetic is suposed to be a certain kind of relationship between concepts and the way in which these concepts are presented to an observer. This "certain kind of relationship" is (again, suposedly) the particular one to awake the aesthetic experience. That means that if you are presented with something poetic, then you should have an aesthetic experience, and if you have an aesthetic experience, then you must be in the presence of poetic. But here comes relativity again, because poetic is a complex relationship. That means that the relationship is not an absolut relationship between (only) the concepts in front of us, but between those and the concepts inside us (our memory, our emotions towards our context, our feelings,
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
i really don't remember who brought that thing of 'end of computer music' on that list, i would mainly say, it's no good to limit oneself to computer music, and generally for me, it's not enough. i'm glad you quote Tarkowski and not another *kowski... i like pan sonic i like luc ferrari i like savage republic i'm going to see napalm death.. ( just in case someone is lost ) and i never said my taste was the absolute one... your arguments are not bad, but soo long, i just understood you would like a more physical interaction with the computer. saludos, sevy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:39 PM, ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.comwrote: i like luc ferrari About 10-12 years ago I took Luc to a Chicago house club. He was really into dance music in the 90s, and not so much into 'computer music'. He was getting more inspiration from going to clubs than anything from IRCAM or GRM. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 12:44 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Sep 4, 2009, at 12:09 PM, glerm soares wrote: 2009/9/4 glerm soares organi...@gmail.com I have yet to see any computer or electronic music show that can hold a candle to the feeling of being packed into a room of people dancing face-to-face with 9 musicians pouring their guts into completely physical instruments. we don't even need sound to prove it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/purecanesugar/3824634806/sizes/l/ cheers ;) glerm That was fun, that was the samba night in the Pelorinho in Salvador after the ISCL event. So for me the question is, how do we get music using computers to be more like that? use netpd (what seems like a cheap ad is rather a prompt to myself to dive into it again. without saying something about the quality of the resulting music, it at least enabled some people quite some times to have the feeling of being part of an expressive exchange with eachother by using music creating tools. i find your question quite intriguing and i think, it's definitely worth trying to 'get music using computers to be more like that'.) roman ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 03:40:20PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 02:35:00PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... Pretty sure I saw two kaoss pads on stage when kk null was playing. classification analog/digital is very arbitrary, as all use both, like pan sonic uses a lot of electronics, i don't know why they will still be classified in computer music, maybe the way they use it makes it sound like computer music-? Yeah, totally agree. Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx i forgot to mention one band that matters : esplendor geometrico from madrid so yeh all computer music is not to send to the trash but most of it is boring and more than that there is absolutely nothing new btw, i don't like samba, gipsies fanfares, drum bass, autechre and all popular culture, no way, sounds boring before it starts ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
ola, Trying to think of a few releases that do it for me, that don't go for the quantized clubstep grid or the usual academic Fast Fourier Tropes, use computers and related technologies in a refreshing way and sound really visceral and alive, off the top of my head I'd say: Kevin Drumm - Sheer Hellish Miasma reissue [2007 Editions Mego] John Wiese - Bubble Pulse [2003 Kissy Records] Anthony Pateras Robin Fox - End of Daze [2009 Editions Mego] O.S.T. - Waetka [2008 Ideal] Hecker - Acid in the Style of David Tudor [2009 Editions Mego] i think Mego was over since 2004 or something like that... as i also think the computer years are a bit behind, glitch click drones buzz bass, what's new? i would just keep the good memory of a slightly different list : pan sonic ( any ) masami akita a.k.a. merzbow ( although i would prefer his analog work ) chicks on speed ( that don't play guitars ) as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... so i can't comment about noise with computers... ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Analog - kinda... I saw Merzbow at Highbury Islington back in 1992/3. His stage act was a chain of fx pedals and guitar, and electric drill/grinder wheel. On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:35:00 +0200 ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.com wrote: ola, Trying to think of a few releases that do it for me, that don't go for the quantized clubstep grid or the usual academic Fast Fourier Tropes, use computers and related technologies in a refreshing way and sound really visceral and alive, off the top of my head I'd say: Kevin Drumm - Sheer Hellish Miasma reissue [2007 Editions Mego] John Wiese - Bubble Pulse [2003 Kissy Records] Anthony Pateras Robin Fox - End of Daze [2009 Editions Mego] O.S.T. - Waetka [2008 Ideal] Hecker - Acid in the Style of David Tudor [2009 Editions Mego] i think Mego was over since 2004 or something like that... as i also think the computer years are a bit behind, glitch click drones buzz bass, what's new? i would just keep the good memory of a slightly different list : pan sonic ( any ) masami akita a.k.a. merzbow ( although i would prefer his analog work ) chicks on speed ( that don't play guitars ) as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... so i can't comment about noise with computers... ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:35 AM, ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.comwrote: as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... 'The King of Noise' Boyd Rice made some of the best noise records over 25 years ago. Since then I haven't heard many noise albums or shows that are as interesting. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 02:35:00PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... Pretty sure I saw two kaoss pads on stage when kk null was playing. Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 02:35:00PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... Pretty sure I saw two kaoss pads on stage when kk null was playing. Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx classification analog/digital is very arbitrary, as all use both, like pan sonic uses a lot of electronics, i don't know why they will still be classified in computer music, maybe the way they use it makes it sound like computer music-? ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 03:40:20PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 02:35:00PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: as far as noise is concerned, my favs all use analog equipment : wolf eyes, incapacitants, macronympha, to live and shave in L.A., kk null, ... Pretty sure I saw two kaoss pads on stage when kk null was playing. classification analog/digital is very arbitrary, as all use both, like pan sonic uses a lot of electronics, i don't know why they will still be classified in computer music, maybe the way they use it makes it sound like computer music-? Yeah, totally agree. Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
This is the band I most enjoy recently: http://www.slavicsoulparty.com/ I have yet to see any computer or electronic music show that can hold a candle to the feeling of being packed into a room of people dancing face-to-face with 9 musicians pouring their guts into completely physical instruments. Of course, the website and digital recording does a poor job of conveying that. There is something about physical exertion that lends an essential character to the music. Computer and electronic music is too easy, it takes almost no physical effort. And it sounds like it most of the time. To me there is potential in live coding, you since it takes a lot of mental exertion at least. But people are just learning, so the music mostly isn't good. Most laptop music barely takes mental exertion during the performance. .hc On Sep 3, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Derek Holzer wrote: So let's see, it was 1996, and Bob's making noises like Jungle, DrumBass or some other megatrend crowdpleaser just arrived to save him from the avant-hegemony of the elbow patch professor crowd's software diddlings. About the same time, Paul Miller aka DJ Spooky was lamenting how jazz has been run off the rails by the (subtextually white) downtown squeaky music scene in New York (I might argue that something called the 1980's killed it already...who actually listens to the last couple drum machine- and sampler- plagued Miles Davis records? Bob O?). The high culture vs low culture thing was very big that decade if I remember correctly... But I will have to go with Yves on this one. Any time something fossilizes into a genre it's all downhill from there. Keep your references clear, quantize to grid, don't step out of line. Bob's article only seems to go after one of them, but the academic computer music scene and the club music scene(s) both share the distinction of being some of the most conservative places I've ever visited. Trying to think of a few releases that do it for me, that don't go for the quantized clubstep grid or the usual academic Fast Fourier Tropes, use computers and related technologies in a refreshing way and sound really visceral and alive, off the top of my head I'd say: Kevin Drumm - Sheer Hellish Miasma reissue [2007 Editions Mego] John Wiese - Bubble Pulse [2003 Kissy Records] Anthony Pateras Robin Fox - End of Daze [2009 Editions Mego] O.S.T. - Waetka [2008 Ideal] Hecker - Acid in the Style of David Tudor [2009 Editions Mego] (No I'm not anywhere near being banked by Mego, these just happened all to be sitting near the top of the pile due to repeated listening...although finding much computer music at all around my house is a bit of a challenge!) D. Greg Pond wrote: don't know if any of you have read Ostertag's Why Computer Music Sucks but here is the link http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 157: Think - inside the work - outside the work ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list [W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity.-John Gilmore ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
I have yet to see any computer or electronic music show that can hold a candle to the feeling of being packed into a room of people dancing face-to-face with 9 musicians pouring their guts into completely physical instruments. same for satanique samba trio: http://www.myspace.com/sataniquesambatrio but shame on those garbage swf flash players - the computer part. better alive, always. abraço glerm ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
2009/9/4 glerm soares organi...@gmail.com I have yet to see any computer or electronic music show that can hold a candle to the feeling of being packed into a room of people dancing face-to-face with 9 musicians pouring their guts into completely physical instruments. we don't even need sound to prove it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/purecanesugar/3824634806/sizes/l/ cheers ;) glerm ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Sep 4, 2009, at 12:09 PM, glerm soares wrote: 2009/9/4 glerm soares organi...@gmail.com I have yet to see any computer or electronic music show that can hold a candle to the feeling of being packed into a room of people dancing face-to-face with 9 musicians pouring their guts into completely physical instruments. we don't even need sound to prove it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/purecanesugar/3824634806/sizes/l/ cheers ;) glerm That was fun, that was the samba night in the Pelorinho in Salvador after the ISCL event. So for me the question is, how do we get music using computers to be more like that? .hc Making boring techno music is really easy with modern tools, he says, but with live coding, boring techno is much harder. - Chris McCormick ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
When there's finally a computer that sounds its best after I've pounded the living hell out of it and sweat all over it for at least 4 hours, then I might get more interested in live computer music again. Hunting and pecking at the keyboard while you IRC with your coding buddies is a poor substitute ;-) D. Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: That was fun, that was the samba night in the Pelorinho in Salvador after the ISCL event. So for me the question is, how do we get music using computers to be more like that? -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 46: Disconnect from desire ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 03:40:20PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: classification analog/digital is very arbitrary, as all use both, like pan sonic uses a lot of electronics, i don't know why they will still be classified in computer music, maybe the way they use it makes it sound like computer music-? Yeah, totally agree. John Denver's «Country Roads» is computer music when it's been coded into 6809 machine code to be played on a Tandy 6-bit DAC. In the summer of 1983, my father left our rural isles by plane several times to get some training in the city of Québec, and each time he came back he had some 600-baud tapes with more programmes. Back then, we used to load this programme over and over to hear the marvellous sound coming out of it... Frankly, I don't care how much academicians use confusing terms for their own music at the expense of the rest of the population. I mean, «computer» and «music» are terms for everybody and if you just put those two words together it should make a term for everybody doing music with a computer, or some other sensible subset of it that doesn't have to do with whether the composers got tenure. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
So let's see, it was 1996, and Bob's making noises like Jungle, DrumBass or some other megatrend crowdpleaser just arrived to save him from the avant-hegemony of the elbow patch professor crowd's software diddlings. About the same time, Paul Miller aka DJ Spooky was lamenting how jazz has been run off the rails by the (subtextually white) downtown squeaky music scene in New York (I might argue that something called the 1980's killed it already...who actually listens to the last couple drum machine- and sampler-plagued Miles Davis records? Bob O?). The high culture vs low culture thing was very big that decade if I remember correctly... But I will have to go with Yves on this one. Any time something fossilizes into a genre it's all downhill from there. Keep your references clear, quantize to grid, don't step out of line. Bob's article only seems to go after one of them, but the academic computer music scene and the club music scene(s) both share the distinction of being some of the most conservative places I've ever visited. Trying to think of a few releases that do it for me, that don't go for the quantized clubstep grid or the usual academic Fast Fourier Tropes, use computers and related technologies in a refreshing way and sound really visceral and alive, off the top of my head I'd say: Kevin Drumm - Sheer Hellish Miasma reissue [2007 Editions Mego] John Wiese - Bubble Pulse [2003 Kissy Records] Anthony Pateras Robin Fox - End of Daze [2009 Editions Mego] O.S.T. - Waetka [2008 Ideal] Hecker - Acid in the Style of David Tudor [2009 Editions Mego] (No I'm not anywhere near being banked by Mego, these just happened all to be sitting near the top of the pile due to repeated listening...although finding much computer music at all around my house is a bit of a challenge!) D. Greg Pond wrote: don't know if any of you have read Ostertag's Why Computer Music Sucks but here is the link http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 157: Think - inside the work - outside the work ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. Kind regards, Lorenzo ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 03:23:17PM +0200, Lorenzo wrote: http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. http://dashes.com/anil/2009/06/the-end-of-fail.html Fail cheap. Fail fast. Fail often. Always make new mistakes. -- Esther Dyson Failing daily, :) Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl wrote: (No I'm not anywhere near being banked by Mego, these just happened all to be sitting near the top of the pile due to repeated listening...although finding much computer music at all around my house is a bit of a challenge!) I was fairly involved with Mego about a decade ago, and I don't think much of the work has really held up. As much as I like Peter, Florian and the others the stuff we thought was so groundbreaking back then ended up not making much of an impact. The third track on Peter's Get Out remains a standout as does Fennesz's reworking of Paint It Black. What is interesting to me is that both of those started from quite musical sources and retained just enough of those musical qualities to not only catch the ear, but remain in the memory after a single listen. This is a something I rarely find in computer music. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
what is that obsession of winning and loosing, failing and suceeding ? we were only speaking of the impact of computer music in the western culture, i don't see the point or do you call bob ostertag a looser? anyway, that video about 'thinking positive' is really like wasp propaganda, why not a video of steve ballmer? Chris McCormick wrote: On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 03:23:17PM +0200, Lorenzo wrote: http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. http://dashes.com/anil/2009/06/the-end-of-fail.html Fail cheap. Fail fast. Fail often. Always make new mistakes. -- Esther Dyson Failing daily, :) Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
loser? Or looser, like less up-tight? On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:44:15 +0200 ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.com wrote: what is that obsession of winning and loosing, failing and suceeding ? we were only speaking of the impact of computer music in the western culture, i don't see the point or do you call bob ostertag a looser? anyway, that video about 'thinking positive' is really like wasp propaganda, why not a video of steve ballmer? Chris McCormick wrote: On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 03:23:17PM +0200, Lorenzo wrote: http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. http://dashes.com/anil/2009/06/the-end-of-fail.html Fail cheap. Fail fast. Fail often. Always make new mistakes. -- Esther Dyson Failing daily, :) Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
Yves: good point! I haven't seen the video because I can't play flash videos. Sorry if I subjected you to something awful. Developersdevelopersdevelopers, Chris. On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 04:44:15PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: what is that obsession of winning and loosing, failing and suceeding ? we were only speaking of the impact of computer music in the western culture, i don't see the point or do you call bob ostertag a looser? anyway, that video about 'thinking positive' is really like wasp propaganda, why not a video of steve ballmer? Chris McCormick wrote: On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 03:23:17PM +0200, Lorenzo wrote: http://bobostertag.com/writings-articles-computer-music-sucks.htm (this link does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the sender) Could someone please write an article All-of-these-[something]-sucks-articles-really-suck? I find them so boring, superficial and unproductive. http://dashes.com/anil/2009/06/the-end-of-fail.html Fail cheap. Fail fast. Fail often. Always make new mistakes. -- Esther Dyson Failing daily, :) Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Derek Holzer wrote: (I might argue that something called the 1980's killed it already...who actually listens to the last couple drum machine- and sampler-plagued Miles Davis records? Bob O?). The high culture vs low culture thing was very big that decade if I remember correctly... How would you explain this greater high-vs-low rift ? My impression was that the 70's prog-rock genre so much tried to erase the high-vs-low boundary, that it caused record companies to get sick of it, as it grew unmanageable... to say it in just two lines. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
