RE: New Pentax digital SLR
Well, whatever chip they use, they better bring on the Pentax digital body awfully bloody soon! I had the opportunity to shoot the 2001 Tokyo Motor Show with my brother's D30 and while it was a pleasure shooting digital with a proper SLR rather than a point and shoot, the D30 ergonomics and interface leave much to be desired... btw, I got my first picture published in Car Driver this month! Look for the write-up on the TMS by Peter Lyon; I took the prototype Skyline GT-R pic for the article! Cheers. Jeff http://www.lumine.net/driving/ On Monday, December 10, 2001, at 08:00 PM, pentax-discuss-digest wrote: Theres no way Pentax can make a viable digital slr until it reaches prices the amateur can afford. These prices will be reached in a relative short while but not with that Philips chip. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
From: Jeff Tsai snip... btw, I got my first picture published in Car Driver this month! Look for the write-up on the TMS by Peter Lyon; I took the prototype Skyline GT-R pic for the article! Cheers. Jeff http://www.lumine.net/driving/ Jeff, Congratulations! I will have to look at the magazine. I really enjoy hearing about things like this! Cesar Matamoros II Panama City, Florida in Baltimore, Maryland - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: RE: New Pentax digital SLR
As Monty Burns would say: Excellent Dave I saw some competion at my last horse show useing the D30.Saw a LOT of Poly Carbs on body and zoom Begin Original Message From: Jeff Tsai [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:26:33 +0900 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: New Pentax digital SLR Well, whatever chip they use, they better bring on the Pentax digital body awfully bloody soon! I had the opportunity to shoot the 2001 Tokyo Motor Show with my brother's D30 and while it was a pleasure shooting digital with a proper SLR rather than a point and shoot, the D30 ergonomics and interface leave much to be desired... btw, I got my first picture published in Car Driver this month! Look for the write-up on the TMS by Peter Lyon; I took the prototype Skyline GT-R pic for the article! Cheers. Jeff http://www.lumine.net/driving/ On Monday, December 10, 2001, at 08:00 PM, pentax-discuss-digest wrote: Theres no way Pentax can make a viable digital slr until it reaches prices the amateur can afford. These prices will be reached in a relative short while but not with that Philips chip. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Jeff T. wrote: I had the opportunity to shoot the 2001 Tokyo Motor Show with my brother's D30 and while it was a pleasure shooting digital with a proper SLR rather than a point and shoot, the D30 ergonomics and interface leave much to be desired... btw, I got my first picture published in Car Driver this month! Look for the write-up on the TMS by Peter Lyon; I took the prototype Skyline GT-R pic for the article! Jeff, Congratulations! That's great. --Mike - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Pål Audun Jensen Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: New Pentax digital SLR snip They only ones who can justify this cost are people who are producing lot of images. For 35mm photography these are the photo journalist. They have heavily invested in Nikon and Canon lenses and won't switch to Pentax just because it offers (for the time being) a few Mpix more. Theres no way Pentax can make a viable digital slr until it reaches prices the amateur can afford. These prices will be reached in a relative short while but not with that Philips chip. snip This seems to me, purely logical, rational, and smart business. My thoughts exactly. Thanks, Ed http://lightandsilver.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Pentax certainly isn't going to go for the news photographer market. Nikon and Conon compeate in that market by providing free on-site service and feee loaners at major events. That is expensive, and the comsumer gets to pay for it when they buy Canon, or Nikon consumer grade cameras; so I would't want them to do that either. But there are many other markets for a high end 35mm based digital digital. Event photogs could eat up eveything Pentax could produce for a while. Serious wedding photogs could make good use of such a camera. Unfortunately, without tiltshift lenses they wouldn't break into much of the product photography market, but if they came out with a couple of TS leneses they could make heavy inroads into that market. No, the MZ-D is not an unmarketable camera, except maybe for Pentax. Ciao, graywolf - Original Message - From: Pål Audun Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:22 AM Subject: RE: New Pentax digital SLR Cesar wrote: I don't see how the MZ-D is already obsolete. It is obsolete because the chip is far more expensive than those the competition, and Pentax for that matter, will use real soon. I thought it was a question of pricing themselves into a market they did not want to be. Or where the customers don't want to buy. Pentax did take preorder for the MZ-D and I believe, but not gotten it confirmed, that in my country they didn't receive a single order. At least, the Pentax distributor had no idea who was going to buy a 10 000USD digital Pentax. They only ones who can justify this cost are people who are producing lot of images. For 35mm photography these are the photo journalist. They have heavily invested in Nikon and Canon lenses and won't switch to Pentax just because it offers (for the time being) a few Mpix more. Theres no way Pentax can make a viable digital slr until it reaches prices the amateur can afford. These prices will be reached in a relative short while but not with that Philips chip. There seems to be no reason why they would not address a full '35mm-format' size CCD in a camera. I think they *will* use a full frame chip but a cheaper one than the Philips. Something I cannot understand is how a digital camera becomes 'obsolete.' The fact that I have a 3.1 megapixel digital camera still makes it a digital camera that produces good images (still meeting my original useage criteria) six years from now. The fact that there may be 6, 7, or 10 megapixel cameras out there does not make my digital obsolete - just not top of the line in terms of size. But you can't sell a less than top of the line chipped camera at a top of the line price. Hence, it becomes obsolete. The Philips chip is getting too expensive for what it offers. BTW a Pentax rep told me that the Contax use a CMOS chip not from Philips (I haven't got this confirmed from other sources so apply with a usual grain of salt). The Pentax MZ-D with the Philips chip would have costed significantly more than the Contax. Pål Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
If the Contax does indeed use a CMOS sensor, then it is not up to the quality level of the CCD in the MZ-D. The only camera currently on the market that competes with the MZ-D is, as I have said here before, the $7K Kodak DCS-760, and it has a slightly less then full frame sensor. My guess is that Pentax, like most of those on this list, has no idea of what to do with a top end camera. We can make it, but who would buy it? I could sell them, provided, and only provided that Pentax was committed to stay in that market. No one wants to invest in a system than is going to be orphaned like the pros who bought into the LX were. And I guess that is the gist of it. Ciao, graywolf - Original Message - From: Pål Audun Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:22 AM Subject: RE: New Pentax digital SLR But you can't sell a less than top of the line chipped camera at a top of the line price. Hence, it becomes obsolete. The Philips chip is getting too expensive for what it offers. BTW a Pentax rep told me that the Contax use a CMOS chip not from Philips (I haven't got this confirmed from other sources so apply with a usual grain of salt). The Pentax MZ-D with the Philips chip would have costed significantly more than the Contax. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Several times now people have alluded to this Olympus interchangeable lens digital camera. Is there any information available on it? It seems like olympus might really have the upperhand hand here since (I assume) they will be designing an entirely new lens line specifically for digital - maybe even stardardizing on a less than full frame chip. Eric From: Pål Audun Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nothing of the sort. They did shelve the IS 300 because it wasn't competitive (obsolete). They have release the Optio series which is highly contemporary, competitive and far from obsolete. They same can be done for digital slr's. Just look at Olympus soon to be released digital slr with interchangeable lenses. It may set the standard. Pål - _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
If this is true the Olympus will have one big built in disadvantage that is the same one the Contax has. Because they are using a new lens line there are no used lenses available so initial costs will be extremely high. The entire advantage of a 35mm type lens mount digital camera is that lots of glass from old to new is available to use on it. No matter if the Contax has 6 MP and interchangeable lenses if the first lens you need to buy for your shooting costs you the camera plus an extra $2k it won't sell even in a 1:10 ratio to something like the EOS-1D which would allow somebody to get in at close to 1/2 the costs with several advantages depending on your type of shooting. If Olympus does do this it better be under $2k or they will be in the dead camera maker category in another 5 years just from the RD costs if they can't sell enough of them. Kent Gittings -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Eric Lawton Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New Pentax digital SLR Several times now people have alluded to this Olympus interchangeable lens digital camera. Is there any information available on it? It seems like olympus might really have the upperhand hand here since (I assume) they will be designing an entirely new lens line specifically for digital - maybe even stardardizing on a less than full frame chip. Eric From: Pål Audun Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nothing of the sort. They did shelve the IS 300 because it wasn't competitive (obsolete). They have release the Optio series which is highly contemporary, competitive and far from obsolete. They same can be done for digital slr's. Just look at Olympus soon to be released digital slr with interchangeable lenses. It may set the standard. Pål - _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Mark wrote: So you are right - it does not make sense to devote a lot of effort to building a high end digital that will soon be obsolete. However, given the inevitability of digital, some articulation of a plan to adapt to the new technology from Pentax would be wise. Given that this company has been a late adapter in other arenas, that it has been hurt by it's lack of nimbleness, and that it just scrapped a major project that was designed to demonstrate its commitment to digital (the digital Mz-S) - some signal that Pentax has a plan and intends to survive would be appreciated. I think a white paper or vision statement on its website could do it - without compromising trade secrets or anything. But isn't this exactly what Pentax have done? They have said that theres no point in releasing the MZ-D prototype as showed at Photokina because its essentially obsolete already. Hence, they will make a more competitive digital camera based on the same platform instead. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
Mark wrote: So you are right - it does not make sense to devote a lot of effort to building a high end digital that will soon be obsolete. However, given the inevitability of digital, some articulation of a plan to adapt to the new technology from Pentax would be wise. Given that this company has been a late adapter in other arenas, that it has been hurt by it's lack of nimbleness, and that it just scrapped a major project that was designed to demonstrate its commitment to digital (the digital Mz-S) - some signal that Pentax has a plan and intends to survive would be appreciated. I think a white paper or vision statement on its website could do it - without compromising trade secrets or anything. Pål answered: But isn't this exactly what Pentax have done? They have said that theres no point in releasing the MZ-D prototype as showed at Photokina because its essentially obsolete already. Hence, they will make a more competitive digital camera based on the same platform instead. Pål I don't see how the MZ-D is already obsolete. I thought it was a question of pricing themselves into a market they did not want to be. There seems to be no reason why they would not address a full '35mm-format' size CCD in a camera. A comparable CCD size as is currently available in a Pentax would put them into a competitive price market and then they could possibly go high-end. These are just my thoughts. Something I cannot understand is how a digital camera becomes 'obsolete.' The fact that I have a 3.1 megapixel digital camera still makes it a digital camera that produces good images (still meeting my original useage criteria) six years from now. The fact that there may be 6, 7, or 10 megapixel cameras out there does not make my digital obsolete - just not top of the line in terms of size. I can understand obsolete in terms of parts or service support, but not in the sense I keep seeing the term being used. César Matamoros II Panama City, Florida in New York City - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
But isn't this exactly what Pentax have done? They have said that theres no point in releasing the MZ-D prototype as showed at Photokina because its essentially obsolete already. Hence, they will make a more competitive digital camera based on the same platform instead. Pål - I think this is wishful thinking but I hope that is what happens. I'm afraid that Pentax is going to stay with their high money makers. PS consumer digital cameras. I'd leap upon a 5MP digital SLR that I could use my Pentax glass on. Len --- - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Mark wrote: I think that full-frame CCDs and smaller ones may well coexist. Mike Johnston recently mentioned professional wildlife photographers who don't want to upgrade to the latest Canon D30 because it's CCD yields only 1.3x focal length magnification. For most of us a full-frame CCD will be the best compromise, but for those who make a living with telephotos, the smaller CCD makes sense as long as the pixel count is sufficient for the enlargements they need. But isn't a smaller CCD equal to cropping with a larger CCD? As far as I can see, there are no advantage whatsoever with the smaller chip since you can always crop the image from a full size chip down to what would have been produced by the same chip but smaller. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Mike wrote: The only effort to standardize chip size that I'm aware of is being led by Kodak, who are urging adoption of a 4/3rds-inch chip size. Small chip sizes, far from being a dead end, will are what will be used in consumer cameras. The market for these will be vast--actually, already is--and hardly a dead end. Sure, but I was talking about SLR's that use lenses from the 35mm systems. There's no point having lenses covering a much larger circle than necessary. It's like using medium format lenses on 35mm on a permanent basis. Surely its a inelegant solution. I'm sure there will be smaller chips for PS and slr's as well using APS system (or similar) lenses. Secondly, the D30 (is it really successful?) will be laughed out of the market within a year or simply given away. It's like buying a 286 computer at an absurd price. Yes, it has certainly been successful, and I just think your assessment of it here is utterly wrong. We simply disagree, which is no problem, but I disagree completely. Suvess is relative. I'm sure the D30 is sucessful in its market segment but the fact is, to my knowledge at least, that digital slr's have a very small fraction of the market. It hasn't really taken off yet. I'm sure it will though, but then we need something a lot better than the D30. Frankly, we are now in the very early days of digital cameras. I would personally stay away from the first generation digital slr's unless you need it in your work. Pal, we are far, far past the first generation. These may be early days but they are certainly not VERY early days. The market is extremely small It is?!?!? The camera makers who are putting entire development budgets into cameras that will have 2-3 year production lifespans would be interested to hear this. In fact, the market is wide open, growing by leaps and bounds, and very likely to dominate in the not very distant future. See above. The market for digital cameras are exploding passing the 50% mark in marked share in some countries. However, SLR's with interchangeable lenses is still only tiny fraction of the digital market, let alone the SLR market. I'm sure this market will take off at some point and pretty soon as well. If you want a D30, by all means go ahead. Personally I would be grossly disappointed if Pentax release anything remotely like the D30. I cannot disagree more. The D30 is all the camera that most digital photographers are EVER likely to need. If Pentax could duplicate its quality for 1/2 to 2/3rds the price and make use of K-mount lenses it would have a sure winner on its hands in no time. You are going to eat those words one day. Its like those who once said that 4Mbyte of ram is all you ever going to need. I'm certain that at some point in the not so distant future most of us will wonder why anyone bought the D30 and how they could be happy with the result it produce. I'm certain that digital slr's are in their infancy at present and that the current prices will be seen as outrageous in a not so distant future. Hnece, they are questionable investments. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Pål Audun Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark wrote: I think that full-frame CCDs and smaller ones may well coexist. Mike Johnston recently mentioned professional wildlife photographers who don't want to upgrade to the latest Canon D30 because it's CCD yields only 1.3x focal length magnification. For most of us a full-frame CCD will be the best compromise, but for those who make a living with telephotos, the smaller CCD makes sense as long as the pixel count is sufficient for the enlargements they need. But isn't a smaller CCD equal to cropping with a larger CCD? Nope. Not unless the two CCDs have identical pixel density, which isn't necessarily the case. Two CCDs can have identical pixel counts and different size. -- Mark Roberts www.robertstech.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
I think the issue is more of a concern that Pentax will not move fast enough and will miss an opportunity. I for one would be happy to just hear a statement form Pentax about what they intend to do. Your analogy to computers is a little off the mark. Computers offered new functionality right out the gate - even the simple 8 bit jobs revolutionized word processing and number crunching. In the early 80's I used to compile a fairly complex budget were I worked on paper ledger sheets. It would come back with a list of changes - trim this by 10%, reallocate that to earlier in the year, eliminate this, add that... etc. It was about a 10 hour job to re-write, re-add, and check this thing. My first XT with Lotus knocked that down to about 1 hour of data entry and checking. Even an absurdly slow and crippled PC, by today's standards, offered a huge boost in functionality. In fact, the change from going from paper and pencil to an XT, in terms of using a spread sheet, is vastly more significant than going from and XT and Lotus v1 to a Pentium IV and Excel 2000. Of course, the Pentium offers other technologies that would be impossible on the XT. By contrast, digital cameras do not offer much new. They capture an image, just like a 35mm. I bought my small format digital because it does offer a difference in DOF for close ups, but other than that it does not offer a lot of new functionality. That was a niche in my particular style / subject matter of shooting. It also offers some advantages in convenience, speed of getting the image, and swapping a fixed cost for ongoing costs - some of which are critical for some shooters (like PJ's who can by pass the darkroom) but not critical to most. So while computers offered revolutionary new ways of doing things, and offered up entirely new areas of functionality (like the internet, image processing, etc) - digital photography offers much more modest increases. It's more like the shift from LP records to CD's - not a dramatic change in functionality (put something in a machine, hear music) but enough of a change to make LP's obsolete quickly. So you are right - it does not make sense to devote a lot of effort to building a high end digital that will soon be obsolete. However, given the inevitability of digital, some articulation of a plan to adapt to the new technology from Pentax would be wise. Given that this company has been a late adapter in other arenas, that it has been hurt by it's lack of nimbleness, and that it just scrapped a major project that was designed to demonstrate its commitment to digital (the digital Mz-S) - some signal that Pentax has a plan and intends to survive would be appreciated. I think a white paper or vision statement on its website could do it - without compromising trade secrets or anything. Although it is intangible, consumer confidence in a company is a key factor to the competitive success and even survival of that company. - MCC At 12:56 PM 12/5/01 +0100, you wrote: Cotty: This seems to be in keeping with the look of how things are panning out. It must be obvious to the whole industry that the success of the Canon D30 has highlighted the need for medium-priced pro/am digi SLR. With the previous 6MP Pentax vapoware, the price would have been well within the Nikon D and upcoming Canon EOS1 D territory - but few would have been sold, seeing as how Nikon and Canon have cornered the pro market. Very few Nikon/Canon users would have swapped for a Pentax - even if it was full-frame. The next cameras from Nikon and Canon will have full frame sensors. Which leaves us, a few making there living shooting Pentax, most doing it for love, not wanting to lose all the glass, wanting good quality. If there is anyone at Pentax reading this, or anyone knows anyone at Pentax, please copy and paste the following and email it to them: -- Dear Pentax, I am an amateur Pentax user of many years, on the cusp of introducing digital image acquisition to my repertoire. I am painfully close to buying a Canon D30, and I do mean painfully. I am prepared to wait - but not for much longer. The point is, if I don't get the chance to buy a Pentax DSLR soon (before Christmas 2002 TOPS), I will, without doubt, be getting a D30, and swapping glass as appropriate. The even bigger point: very unlikely I will swap back, because then I will be caught up in the Canon Way, updating bits of kit as and when appropriate. Sure I'll keep some vintage Pentax kit, but as a company, that's of little interest to you - what you want is for me to buy a Pentax D, not a Canon D. What you want is for me to stay Pentax, so I'll then upgrade as new cameras become available, new lenses, and so on. So please, I know you're working on it, I know you're building it - give me (and all the rest of us in this situation) a quick word of confirmation. Tap out a quick press release, give it to the magazines as a filler even. But
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
From astronomy I can tell you some differences. If the chip is smaller but the pixel count is the same the pixels are then smaller and often can yield finer detail if the choice of lenses is done correctly. That's why some people in the industry don't like the preoccupation with pixel count instead of pixel size and dynamic range. Often a smaller, better chip with less pixels can yield superior results over something larger. Kent Gittings -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Pål Audun Jensen Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New Pentax digital SLR Mark wrote: I think that full-frame CCDs and smaller ones may well coexist. Mike Johnston recently mentioned professional wildlife photographers who don't want to upgrade to the latest Canon D30 because it's CCD yields only 1.3x focal length magnification. For most of us a full-frame CCD will be the best compromise, but for those who make a living with telephotos, the smaller CCD makes sense as long as the pixel count is sufficient for the enlargements they need. But isn't a smaller CCD equal to cropping with a larger CCD? As far as I can see, there are no advantage whatsoever with the smaller chip since you can always crop the image from a full size chip down to what would have been produced by the same chip but smaller. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
I agree completely. Smaller chip size is often preferable because the same aspect ratio can be done with a smaller lighter lens. Whether anybody settles on 1.3x or 1.6x remains to be seen. Kent Gittings -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mike Johnston Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New Pentax digital SLR And, now, Pal, here we are totally DISagreeing. Pal wrote: Although, I have some sympathy with those who want faster Pentax equipment introductions, I fail to see the sense in wanting an utterly out of date digital slr. Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. The only effort to standardize chip size that I'm aware of is being led by Kodak, who are urging adoption of a 4/3rds-inch chip size. Small chip sizes, far from being a dead end, will are what will be used in consumer cameras. The market for these will be vast--actually, already is--and hardly a dead end. Secondly, the D30 (is it really successful?) will be laughed out of the market within a year or simply given away. It's like buying a 286 computer at an absurd price. Yes, it has certainly been successful, and I just think your assessment of it here is utterly wrong. We simply disagree, which is no problem, but I disagree completely. Frankly, we are now in the very early days of digital cameras. I would personally stay away from the first generation digital slr's unless you need it in your work. Pal, we are far, far past the first generation. These may be early days but they are certainly not VERY early days. The market is extremely small It is?!?!? The camera makers who are putting entire development budgets into cameras that will have 2-3 year production lifespans would be interested to hear this. In fact, the market is wide open, growing by leaps and bounds, and very likely to dominate in the not very distant future. If you want a D30, by all means go ahead. Personally I would be grossly disappointed if Pentax release anything remotely like the D30. I cannot disagree more. The D30 is all the camera that most digital photographers are EVER likely to need. If Pentax could duplicate its quality for 1/2 to 2/3rds the price and make use of K-mount lenses it would have a sure winner on its hands in no time. --Mike - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
Yeah but that is what you actually need. The AF sensor array has to fall into the area observed by the CCD array in this case which makes a 35mm AF sensor array too wide to properly cover the small CCD sensor. If they are using the one from the EOS ix APS camera it is as good as any other AF system. Kent Gittings -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of John Mustarde Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 5:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New Pentax digital SLR On Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:12:41 -0600, you wrote: snip If Pentax could duplicate [the D30] its quality for 1/2 to 2/3rds the price and make use of K-mount lenses it would have a sure winner on its hands in no time. A 3.3mp or better K-mount digital for $1000 - 1500 sounds like a winner to me, too, even with a small sensor. At least Pentax is not likely to put a dinky little APS autofocus system (a la the D30) into their digital. -- John Mustarde - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Although, I have some sympathy with those who want faster Pentax equipment introductions, I fail to see the sense in wanting an utterly out of date digital slr. Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. Secondly, the D30 (is it really successful?) will be laughed out of the market within a year or simply given away. It's like buying a 286 computer at an absurd price. Thirdly, Pentax have clearly stated that they want to make a COMPETITIVE digital slr in the near future. In fact, the 6Mpix MZ-D was dropped because Pentax saw no point in having the most expensive digital slr on the market while other manufacturers could offer the same performance for much less. Frankly, we are now in the very early days of digital cameras. I would personally stay away from the first generation digital slr's unless you need it in your work. The market is extremely small and the only reason Nikon and Canon can get away with genuinely bad and overpriced cameras is their position in the pro market segment. The next generation of digital SLR's will be the first serious ones technically speaking. If you want a D30, by all means go ahead. Personally I would be grossly disappointed if Pentax release anything remotely like the D30. Pål Cotty: This seems to be in keeping with the look of how things are panning out. It must be obvious to the whole industry that the success of the Canon D30 has highlighted the need for medium-priced pro/am digi SLR. With the previous 6MP Pentax vapoware, the price would have been well within the Nikon D and upcoming Canon EOS1 D territory - but few would have been sold, seeing as how Nikon and Canon have cornered the pro market. Very few Nikon/Canon users would have swapped for a Pentax - even if it was full-frame. The next cameras from Nikon and Canon will have full frame sensors. Which leaves us, a few making there living shooting Pentax, most doing it for love, not wanting to lose all the glass, wanting good quality. If there is anyone at Pentax reading this, or anyone knows anyone at Pentax, please copy and paste the following and email it to them: -- Dear Pentax, I am an amateur Pentax user of many years, on the cusp of introducing digital image acquisition to my repertoire. I am painfully close to buying a Canon D30, and I do mean painfully. I am prepared to wait - but not for much longer. The point is, if I don't get the chance to buy a Pentax DSLR soon (before Christmas 2002 TOPS), I will, without doubt, be getting a D30, and swapping glass as appropriate. The even bigger point: very unlikely I will swap back, because then I will be caught up in the Canon Way, updating bits of kit as and when appropriate. Sure I'll keep some vintage Pentax kit, but as a company, that's of little interest to you - what you want is for me to buy a Pentax D, not a Canon D. What you want is for me to stay Pentax, so I'll then upgrade as new cameras become available, new lenses, and so on. So please, I know you're working on it, I know you're building it - give me (and all the rest of us in this situation) a quick word of confirmation. Tap out a quick press release, give it to the magazines as a filler even. But give me a confirmation that we'll see hardware on the shelves sometime SOON! Thank you. - I sometimes think that we, as Pentax users, could do a better job! Anyone want to bung some money in the hat and we'll buy out Pentax - the PDML co-operative? - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Ooh! An on-topic thread, what a find! Ooh, I even started it. Yippee ;-) PÂl writes: Although, I have some sympathy with those who want faster Pentax equipment introductions, I fail to see the sense in wanting an utterly out of date digital slr. Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. Only in that it fits in very well with existing lens configurations, especially at the wide end. Of course it may well be that smaller-than-24X36 imaging sensors will become the norm - for whatever reason - and this is fine. It just means that lens makers will (and are) rethinking their wide-angle designs to take this into consideration. 17-35s are currently good sellers, no? Secondly, the D30 (is it really successful?) certainly desirable, even if you do not personally see it as such... will be laughed out of the market within a year or simply given away. Disagree. Sure it will 'move down the pecking order' and as such become much more affordable to those who can't or won't justify the cost of owning such kit. It's like buying a 286 computer at an absurd price. Only when the 286 was a year or so past it's introduction date. I think anyone buying electro-mechanical consumer hardware knows that the rate of progress in the design and spec of these things is incredibly steep. Computers illustrate this perfectly. Personally I would say less so with cameras. If all I want to do is output digitally generated photographs onto inkjet paper using a 5-colour (+black) 'photo printer' on A4 or A3, then I need not look any further than a D30. If I wanted better quality for differemt output, then I would quite happily shoot on film using my LX, or medium format, or whatever was required. I am not usually paid to take pictures (though I have 3 portrait commissions for Christmas) and so most of my output is for personal pleasure, and artistic reason. As such, cost only enters the arguement insofar as I can spend as much as I jolly well like on the means to this end. I *could* get around in a Honda Civic (as some apparently do ;-) but I would MUCH rather get around in an AC Cobra! I certainly don't have to justify the cost - the cost is the personal entertainment value achieved. Same with my photography. Good quality digital *is* expensive, but even though I don't make much money from picture-taking, I have an even better reason for wanting to spend to achieve that than, say, a PJ. He/she *has* to buy it, I *want* to! Thirdly, Pentax have clearly stated that they want to make a COMPETITIVE digital slr in the near future. In fact, the 6Mpix MZ-D was dropped because Pentax saw no point in having the most expensive digital slr on the market while other manufacturers could offer the same performance for much less. Fair enough, can't argue with that. Frankly, we are now in the very early days of digital cameras. I would personally stay away from the first generation digital slr's unless you need it in your work. The market is extremely small and the only reason Nikon and Canon can get away with genuinely bad and overpriced cameras is their position in the pro market segment. I respect your judgement, and when I step back and think seriously about it using my head, I would tend to agree with you. However, when my heart has it's say, all that goes out the window. The process goes something like this: Heart: Js! D'you see that? Fir f's sake! You know what this means??!! Head: Be reasonable man - you can't afford that! Heart: Yeah I know, but, sheesh. That's truly amazing, eh? Head: You'd never get it past her. Heart: Yeah, she'd kill me. Head: And the credit card is fuller than a latrine at a laxative convention. Heart: But they've just raised the credit limit! Head: Oh God, I forgot. Heart: And I'd sell some lenses of course. Head: I'm losing it... Heart: And think of all the film and processing costs I could save! Head: That's it I'm off - Heart: Right! Onto the net - gotta do some reading! Head: (footsteps into distance, door slams) Heart: This'll be so cool...! The next generation of digital SLR's will be the first serious ones technically speaking. If you want a D30, by all means go ahead. Personally I would be grossly disappointed if Pentax release anything remotely like the D30. I would much rather wait for the Pentax, I expect some hints after Christmas. Failing that, as you predict, D30s will fall in price as Canon-users go for the EOS1-D, and I will most likely pick one up. I certainly will NOT be subscribing to the CDML! I'll still have my LX :-) Thanks for stimulating this thread. Cotty ___ Personal email traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] MacAds traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out the UK Macintosh ads http://www.macads.co.uk - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
- Original Message - From: Pål Audun Jensen Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. Thirdly, Pentax have clearly stated that they want to make a COMPETITIVE digital slr in the near future. In fact, the 6Mpix MZ-D was dropped because Pentax saw no point in having the most expensive digital slr on the market while other manufacturers could offer the same performance for much less. Pål In the semiconductor industry, the cost of a chip is directly related to the size of the chip, so full (35mm) frame sensors will always be expensive. This implies that we can't expect a full frame SLR from PENTAX ? George - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Cotty wrote: PÂl wrote: Although, I have some sympathy with those who want faster Pentax equipment introductions, I fail to see the sense in wanting an utterly out of date digital slr. Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. I think that full-frame CCDs and smaller ones may well coexist. Mike Johnston recently mentioned professional wildlife photographers who don't want to upgrade to the latest Canon D30 because it's CCD yields only 1.3x focal length magnification. For most of us a full-frame CCD will be the best compromise, but for those who make a living with telephotos, the smaller CCD makes sense as long as the pixel count is sufficient for the enlargements they need. Only in that it fits in very well with existing lens configurations, especially at the wide end. Of course it may well be that smaller-than-24X36 imaging sensors will become the norm - for whatever reason - and this is fine. It just means that lens makers will (and are) rethinking their wide-angle designs to take this into consideration. 17-35s are currently good sellers, no? Yes, but I love and *use* my 18-35 most at 18mm. I'd have to get a 12mm with some digital SLRs (and if I had it I'd be constantly thinking I wonder what it'd look like at a *real* 12mm?!) Secondly, the D30 (is it really successful?) certainly desirable, even if you do not personally see it as such... will be laughed out of the market within a year or simply given away. Disagree. Sure it will 'move down the pecking order' and as such become much more affordable to those who can't or won't justify the cost of owning such kit. I also think that the D30 will be obsoleted quickly; It has neither the wide angle advantage of a full-frame CCD nor the 1.6x focal length magnification of smaller CCDs. Either of these makes sense to me and the D30 is neither one nor the other; it's too much of a compromise to work, IMO. -- Mark Roberts www.robertstech.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
I just re-read the following, and my reply doesn't make sense. Read a revision after for some semblance of sanity... Pal wrote: Although, I have some sympathy with those who want faster Pentax equipment introductions, I fail to see the sense in wanting an utterly out of date digital slr. Firstly, its generally assumed industrywise that the small size chips are a dead end. Full frame chip is the way of the future. And I responded: Only in that it fits in very well with existing lens configurations, especially at the wide end. Of course it may well be that smaller-than-24X36 imaging sensors will become the norm - for whatever reason - and this is fine. It just means that lens makers will (and are) rethinking their wide-angle designs to take this into consideration. 17-35s are currently good sellers, no? (Realising now that I misread the point,) I should have written: Only in that, as a compromise, the small chips are at a disadvantage at the wide-angle end. If and when 24X36 sensors become the norm, well and good, and I may move across accordingly. Contax's N1 will be the first 35mm-style SLR, sadly, with the 24X36 chip, but as someone pointed out once before, this is trying to nail a chip into existing SLR form-factors, that fit with existing SLR lenses. It doesn't have to be that way. However, for the sake of argument, I tend to agree - 24X36 is the way of the future. It doesn't preclude me from wanting smaller, faster. HTH Cotty ___ Personal email traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] MacAds traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out the UK Macintosh ads http://www.macads.co.uk - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
On Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:12:41 -0600, you wrote: snip If Pentax could duplicate [the D30] its quality for 1/2 to 2/3rds the price and make use of K-mount lenses it would have a sure winner on its hands in no time. A 3.3mp or better K-mount digital for $1000 - 1500 sounds like a winner to me, too, even with a small sensor. At least Pentax is not likely to put a dinky little APS autofocus system (a la the D30) into their digital. -- John Mustarde - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
Well said Cotty! Exactly my own point of view at the moment ... (delaying buying a 3-set of limited lenses until things clear up :-) Regards, JvW On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:43:22 +, Cotty wrote: If there is anyone at Pentax reading this, or anyone knows anyone at Pentax, please copy and paste the following and email it to them: -- Dear Pentax, I am an amateur Pentax user of many years, on the cusp of introducing digital image acquisition to my repertoire. I am painfully close to buying a Canon D30, and I do mean painfully. I am prepared to wait - but not for much longer. The point is, if I don't get the chance to buy a Pentax DSLR soon (before Christmas 2002 TOPS), I will, without doubt, be getting a D30, and swapping glass as appropriate. The even bigger point: very unlikely I will swap back, because then I will be caught up in the Canon Way, updating bits of kit as and when appropriate. Sure I'll keep some vintage Pentax kit, but as a company, that's of little interest to you - what you want is for me to buy a Pentax D, not a Canon D. What you want is for me to stay Pentax, so I'll then upgrade as new cameras become available, new lenses, and so on. So please, I know you're working on it, I know you're building it - give me (and all the rest of us in this situation) a quick word of confirmation. Tap out a quick press release, give it to the magazines as a filler even. But give me a confirmation that we'll see hardware on the shelves sometime SOON! Thank you. - - Jan van Wijk; www.fsys.demon.nl - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
Pål wrote: I've been told (something that doesn't prevent it from being bull***, but anyway) that Pentax have decided to use another chip in the MZ-D. Theres no reason to automatically assume that it will be a different camera and that it will use a chip smaller than 24x36. In fact, you can expect otherwise. Pentax choose not to use the Phillips chip because it was too expensive I've heard rumors - from two different sources - that heat was also a problem. - in a short while other chip will exist that offer the same performance but at a significant lower price. I was told that digital Contax DON'T use the Phillips 6mpix chip that Pentax showed in their MZ-D prototype (can anyone confirm this?). I have a meeting with Philips Semiconductor reps in half an hour! I'll see if they know anything; the division that does the CCDs is kind of isolated from the rest of the company. Weird but true. Anyway, the bottom line is that there will be an MZ-D but with another chip that's probably full frame. Expect it within a year. -- Mark Roberts www.robertstech.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: New Pentax digital SLR
This seems to be in keeping with the look of how things are panning out. It must be obvious to the whole industry that the success of the Canon D30 has highlighted the need for medium-priced pro/am digi SLR. With the previous 6MP Pentax vapoware, the price would have been well within the Nikon D and upcoming Canon EOS1 D territory - but few would have been sold, seeing as how Nikon and Canon have cornered the pro market. Very few Nikon/Canon users would have swapped for a Pentax - even if it was full-frame. The next cameras from Nikon and Canon will have full frame sensors. Which leaves us, a few making there living shooting Pentax, most doing it for love, not wanting to lose all the glass, wanting good quality. If there is anyone at Pentax reading this, or anyone knows anyone at Pentax, please copy and paste the following and email it to them: -- Dear Pentax, I am an amateur Pentax user of many years, on the cusp of introducing digital image acquisition to my repertoire. I am painfully close to buying a Canon D30, and I do mean painfully. I am prepared to wait - but not for much longer. The point is, if I don't get the chance to buy a Pentax DSLR soon (before Christmas 2002 TOPS), I will, without doubt, be getting a D30, and swapping glass as appropriate. The even bigger point: very unlikely I will swap back, because then I will be caught up in the Canon Way, updating bits of kit as and when appropriate. Sure I'll keep some vintage Pentax kit, but as a company, that's of little interest to you - what you want is for me to buy a Pentax D, not a Canon D. What you want is for me to stay Pentax, so I'll then upgrade as new cameras become available, new lenses, and so on. So please, I know you're working on it, I know you're building it - give me (and all the rest of us in this situation) a quick word of confirmation. Tap out a quick press release, give it to the magazines as a filler even. But give me a confirmation that we'll see hardware on the shelves sometime SOON! Thank you. - I sometimes think that we, as Pentax users, could do a better job! Anyone want to bung some money in the hat and we'll buy out Pentax - the PDML co-operative? Cheers, Cotty I've been told (something that doesn't prevent it from being bull***, but anyway) that Pentax have decided to use another chip in the MZ-D. Theres no reason to automatically assume that it will be a different camera and that it will use a chip smaller than 24x36. In fact, you can expect otherwise. Pentax choose not to use the Phillips chip because it was too expensive - in a short while other chip will exist that offer the same performance but at a significant lower price. I was told that digital Contax DON'T use the Phillips 6mpix chip that Pentax showed in their MZ-D prototype (can anyone confirm this?). Anyway, the bottom line is that there will be an MZ-D but with another chip that's probably full frame. Expect it within a year. ___ Personal email traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] MacAds traffic to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out the UK Macintosh ads http://www.macads.co.uk - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: New Pentax digital SLR
Well, I just got the the engineers from Philips Semiconductor to buy me lunch so the day wasn't a total loss ;-) The people I met with today didn't have any information on any of the Philips CCD products (as I expected) but one of them said he could easily find out if Contax is using the Philips part in their camera. I'll email him tomorrow and remind him. I expect that Contax *isn't* using the Philips part. My bet is on Sony as the supplier. Stay tuned. -- Original Message -- I've been told (something that doesn't prevent it from being bull***, but anyway) that Pentax have decided to use another chip in the MZ-D. Theres no reason to automatically assume that it will be a different camera and that it will use a chip smaller than 24x36. In fact, you can expect otherwise. Pentax choose not to use the Phillips chip because it was too expensive - in a short while other chip will exist that offer the same performance but at a significant lower price. I was told that digital Contax DON'T use the Phillips 6mpix chip that Pentax showed in their MZ-D prototype (can anyone confirm this?). Anyway, the bottom line is that there will be an MZ-D but with another chip that's probably full frame. Expect it within a year. -- Mark Roberts www.robertstech.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
