Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
In a (probably vain) attempt to keep the peace, Jody hands out chill pills all around. __ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Bob wrote: Actually, the suggestion is a good one. I don't see your point, Lasse. Hi Bob, I should have been more precise, I apologise for that. My words about trolling is not directed at the suggestion for the reading, but at the rest of the implications. I think that Dan is being completely dishonest. He is, in bad faith, using me for his political agenda. In an earlier message he accused me of critisizing US policies, he accused me for bringing it up this subject in a negative fashion and for mentioning this altogether. He didn't bother to check the origin and the context of the quote (of mine) where the Hiroshima bombings appeared. If he had, he would have learned that 1) I was not the one who brought up this subject in the first place. He would also, if he cared, have found that 2) I have not in a single word expressed any criticism of the US. Not in any manner or form have I even touched upon the big moral question of whether it was justified or not. Nor have I blamed anyone or any US body, in the past or in the present, for anything in regards to those events. He simply jumped to conclusions and groundlessly attacked me for things I hadn't said nor done. In an earlier message I asked him a few questions of where, when and how I had said or done what he accused me of. He didn't care to answer any of my questions, but rather still implied that I was the one who brought up this subject, and critcised me for this. Now, 1) Dan has no idea whether I think that the US is evil, or not (in the past or in the present), or if I have any opinion at all on the US in any respect (in the past or in the present). Now does he? Yet he tells the list that I think that the US is evil, to the point that no one can talk me out of it. 2) I have not declared that the US should have acted otherwise. I have not expressed a single moral opinion about the events. I have already called his attention to this fact. Yet he now again says that I from a safe distance(!) have declared that the US should have acted otherwise. This amounts to dishonesty to me. This, to me, amounts to common and intellectual indecency. It is in bad faith. It is trolling. That was roughly my point, Bob. As for the suggested reading, That's perfectly fine, in case I want to learn more about that. Lasse Dan M. wrote: You want to believe the US is evil, and no one will talk you out of it. I still invite you to read Flags of our Fathers or one of the other good accounts of the battles at the end of the Pacific war, before you declare, from a safe distance, that the US should have acted otherwise. Dan These are words of a troll, without a scrap of common or intellectual decency. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Tom wrote: Well, I am the one who said you are full of shit. I don't have to prove that as you do a much better job of it than I could with every one of your anti-American posts. Some Americans, one of them you, Tom., do seem to have a great problem, which must make life very difficult for you. 1) You don't recognize a friend, even when he stands before you and reaches out his hand. 2) But it's worse.Those that already are your friends, you try your very best to make enemies of. It's really sad, but it's true. However, you have helped me Tom, in learning how to separate this kind of Americans from the other kind, those who do recognize a friend. You talk about every one of [my] anti-American posts. My usual way when being accused of things that I do not think that I am guilty of, is to ask the person who is accusing me, to point out to me the grounds on which the accusations are based. In this case I won't. I am no longer interested in what you mean by anti-American, Tom. Just hearing you say it, will do. I have learned that those posters who accuse me of being anti-American, anti-US and the like, are no more reasonable than the fanatics among for instance the old Soviet (now Russian) communists and the fundamentalist muslims, which you are now raging against and on this list have proclaimed a holy war on. The rethorics are the same - everything and everybody outside of the defined community is evil, as in anti-American etc. We usually on this list have a habit of making sure that we get the facts right. Be it some Pentax feature, whether glass is flowing, how the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor or did the Russians suffer great losses in the war. Not to mention facts about muslim or arabic countries recently. We can go on and on and on about such facts, and we don't call each other names like anti-Russian,.anti-Japanese etc. However, when it comes to anything that deals with U.S.A., it's all different. Not only are all completely neutral observations called anti-American, but there are even some subjects, like Hiroshima or Viet Nam, which are regarded as anti-American topics in themselves (unless you express explicit support for US policies.) By this you define your enemies. They are, for all practical purposes, all non-Americans. I thought I had the same right to substantiate my position regarding the warnings in Hiroshima. Obviously I didn't fully understand that in the US are restrictions that I wasn't familiar with. (Not that I care that much, but it is interesting to see how they work.) When I say all this, you will of course again say that I am being anti-American, but it is just an observation. And you could be from anywhere. (Well, maybe not really, but never mind.). You will probably also say (or at least think) that I am again full of shit for having said this. That's fine. From now on, I will consider any names that you can come up with for me an honor. I will be pleased whenever you insult me. It will make me confident, because I know then that I am on the right track. Why don't you cool it? Now, I am very cool. I have provided those who are seriously interested in it, means to judge for themselves whether I actually was full of shit, or not, when I responded to your statement that the US never have attacked civilians without warning. I have also realised that I do not any longer have to worry about you any more. That's cool to me. If not out of respect for our dead, how about for your own? Oh, I have full respect for your dead, more so than I have for you, Tom. I have spent a great part of this week taking part of the continued reports on tragic events. It happens that a tear or two falls down my face, just like they do on many other faces. I do not really make that much difference between your or our own. Suffering Swedes or suffering Americans don't make much difference to me, like it seems to do to you. It is almost certain that someone from your country or connected with someone from your country died in this atrocity. There seems to be one missing yes. Your concern is warming, and surprising Tom, considering the many agressive and hateful messages you have posted recently. I thank you for this. (But I am still worried about Nenad and his people. Have you made friends with him, or do you still threaten to drop the atomic bomb on him and his people?) Lasse Lasse Karlsson wrote: William Robb wrote: With all due respect, this sort of post has nothing to do with the present situation that the world finds itself in, Why don't you tell this to those who brought the subject up, and then made a political/personal issue of it? - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Lasse: If that's not sufficient warning, I don't know what would be. Obvioulsy, nothing would satisfy you, not even giving the time, date and flight plan of the incoming plane, so they could shoot it down. You want to believe the US is evil, and no one will talk you out of it. I still invite you to read Flags of our Fathers or one of the other good accounts of the battles at the end of the Pacific war, before you declare, from a safe distance, that the US should have acted otherwise. Dan Lasse Karlsson wrote: [This is part 2.] Did the US issue a fair warning which gave the civilians a chance to escaped from injury? Many posters have claimed that the civilians by distributed leaflets did get a fair warning of what they going to be target of. However there is no proof of any leaflets or any other warnings being distributed before the bombing of Hiroshima. The some 100 000 civilians had no idea of what suddenly was going to hit them. A few years ago the Smithsonian arranged an exhibition on the bombings, including labels containing historical facts. In a letter to the organizer a great number of historians addressed the question of leaflets: In yet another label, the Smithsonian asserts as fact that Special leaflets were then dropped on Japanese cities three days before a bombing raid to warn civilians to evacuate. The very next sentence refers to the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, implying that the civilian inhabitants of Hiroshima were given a warning. In fact, no evidence has ever been uncovered that leaflets warning of atomic attack were dropped on Hiroshima. Indeed, the decision of the Interim Committee was that we could not give the Japanese any warning.[10] [End of quote.] http://www.doug-long.com/letter.htm However, there is evidence of leaflets having been produced and possibly distributed (although I haven't come across a single instance proving that any civilian ever received or read them.) These leaflets, however, were produced a f t e r the bombing of Hiroshima, on the 7th or 8th, the latter is only a day before the surprise bombing of Nagasaki. (There was an campaign including leaflets, radiotransmissions and a newspaper in Japanese, obviously after Nagasaki too, but to what use, I can't say.) When reading the two leaflets, you soon realize, that any claim that they actually constitute a fair warning to the Nagasaki civilians can't be taken seriously. The leaflets are a general call for surrender and evacuation of all cities. All indications point to the fact that the Nagasaki civilians were completely caught by surprise. (Or they would of course not have stayed on as sitting ducks.) These are the wordings of the two leaflets that I have found: TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE: America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet. We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29's can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate. We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city. Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our President has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrendor: We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better, and peace-loving Japan. You should take stops now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all out other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war. EVACUATE YOUR CITIES [The second leaflet.] ATTENTION JAPANESE PEOPLE EVACUATE YOUR CITIES Because your military leaders have rejected the thirteen part surrender declaration, two momentous events have occurred in the last few days. The Soviet Union, because of this rejection on the part of the military has notified your Ambassador Sato that it has declared war on your nation. Thus, all powerful countries of the world are now at war against you. Also because of your leaders' refusal to accept the surrender declaration that would enable Japan to honorably end this useless war, we have employed our atomic bomb. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29's could have carried on a single mission. Radio Tokyo has told you that with the first use of this weapon of total destruction, Hiroshima was virtually destroyed. Before we use this bomb again and again to destroy every resourse of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war,
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Daniel J. Matyola wrote: Lasse: ... You want to believe the US is evil, and no one will talk you out of it.] Dan: I have disagreed with Lasse on some of his posts, but have not read into them that attitude. I don't think that is his intent at all. Re: the use of the A-bomb to end the war. Lots of Americans also do not approve of that. I do not view them as anti-American either, just equally wrong. Bob Harris - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Dan M. wrote: You want to believe the US is evil, and no one will talk you out of it. I still invite you to read Flags of our Fathers or one of the other good accounts of the battles at the end of the Pacific war, before you declare, from a safe distance, that the US should have acted otherwise. Dan These are words of a troll, without a scrap of common or intellectual decency. Lasse - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Actually, the suggestion is a good one. I don't see your point, Lasse. Regards, Bob... --- In the carboniferous epoch we were promised perpetual peace. They swore if we gave up our weapons that the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed they sold us, and delivered us, bound, to our foe. And the gods of the copybook headings said, 'Stick to the devil you know.' --Rudyard Kipling From: Lasse Karlsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dan M. wrote: You want to believe the US is evil, and no one will talk you out of it. I still invite you to read Flags of our Fathers or one of the other good accounts of the battles at the end of the Pacific war, before you declare, from a safe distance, that the US should have acted otherwise. Dan These are words of a troll, without a scrap of common or intellectual decency. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
William Robb wrote: With all due respect, this sort of post has nothing to do with the present situation that the world finds itself in, Who said it had? And what has this got to do with anything? is not at all constructive, You've got thousands of other messages to write. has nothing to do with the purpose of this mailing list, You've got thousands of other messages to write. is probably destructive to its purpose, and should not have been posted in the first place. Why don't you tell this to those who brought the subject up, and then made a political/personal issue of it? I am sure there are people out there who feel the Americans are getting a taste of what they deserve, or think that somehow the senseless murder of innocent American civilians is justified by inventing past crimes for the USA to own up to. I am sure there are. So what? What has this got to do with my post? To these people, I urge you to put your head on a railway track until after a train comes by. To the people who insist on continuing this sort of senseless thread, I urge you do do the same. You just continued it yourself. Bring your camera, I won't be joining you on the track. Let the people who need to grieve do what they need to do. Comfort them is you can. Just shut the hell up if you can't. You do the same. Lasse - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: OT. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings Part 2.
Well, I am the one who said you are full of shit. I don't have to prove that as you do a much better job of it than I could with every one of your anti-American posts. Why don't you cool it? If not out of respect for our dead, how about for your own? It is almost certain that someone from your country or connected with someone from your country died in this atrocity. --graywolf Lasse Karlsson wrote: William Robb wrote: With all due respect, this sort of post has nothing to do with the present situation that the world finds itself in, Why don't you tell this to those who brought the subject up, and then made a political/personal issue of it? -- Tom Rittenhouse Graywolf Photo Charlotte, NC, USA - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
