Re: Perl 6 fears
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, H.Merijn Brand wrote: FEAR: Perl6 will not be able to fix the stigma of just a scripting language or line noise perl5 has never been just a scripting language But sadly enough it is often _perceived_ as such. And also like line noise, as the person you're answering to correctly states: an opinion we all beg to differ, I suppose, but a widespread one indeed... Michele -- you'll see that it shouldn't be so. AND, the writting as usuall is fantastic incompetent. To illustrate, i quote: - Xah Lee trolling in clpmisc, perl bug File::Basename and Perl's nature
Re: Perl 6 fears
Joshua Gatcomb skribis 2005-10-25 8:30 (-0400): IIRC, Andy has taken up the Perl6 PR hat. I think Juerd should like be working with Andy on this one. The rebuttals to these fears needs to be well thought out and convincing because from my personal experience they are prevalent. I'll work with anyone, but I do believe in collaborative editing. That's why I put it in pugs' svn, so that everyone can help. If this list of fears is ever used for more official purposes (not my original intent), like putting it online as an article, of course PR people must be involved. For now, if Andy wants to change anything, he is free to do so, like everyone else. If he thinks I shouldn't continue without his approval, he knows where to find me. So far, most of my subprojects have been undiscussed before they started. It has all worked out well. If anyone objects, please do let me know. But if you want me to discuss things beforehand, people better be reachable and responding, because I generally lose interest if I don't get started within a few days. That kind of thing has been a problem with other projects, and I love how Perl 6 development is so open and free, focussed on fun and a common goal, rather than bureaucracy and people wearing very specifically coloured hats :) Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
Re: Perl 6 fears
On 10/24/05, H.Merijn Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:51 -0400, Joshua Gatcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FEAR: Perl6 internals will be just as inaccessable as p5 paradox. Many people don't find perl5 inaccessible at all Who? Do you know anybody who hacks the regex engine? FEAR: Perl6 will not be able to fix the stigma of just a scripting language or line noise perl5 has never been just a scripting language Yeah, but he's talking about the cultural stigma, which is definitely present. However, given the increasing number of high-level design constructus, I think that this fear will never realize itself. The only way it could is from the name Perl, and once anybody uses it, it will go away. My only current fear is that I won't live long enough to be able to use and understand the full richness of what perl6 is going to offer me. (Oh, and that perl6 will never be able to upgrade my scripts that use 'format', but I'm aware of the plan to make that `obsolete' as in: the perl526 translator will dump core on those) I wonder how hard it would be to actually convert perl 5 formats to Perl6::Form. Having never used the former myself, I wouldn't really know the order of magnitude of this problem. Luke
Re: Perl 6 fears
On 10/25/05, Luke Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/24/05, H.Merijn Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:51 -0400, Joshua Gatcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FEAR: Perl6 internals will be just as inaccessable as p5 paradox. Many people don't find perl5 inaccessible at all Who? Do you know anybody who hacks the regex engine? japhy. Though, granted, he's on a whole new level of insanity. Rob
Re: Perl 6 fears
On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 11:57:10AM -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: On 10/24/05, H.Merijn Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:51 -0400, Joshua Gatcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FEAR: Perl6 internals will be just as inaccessable as p5 paradox. Many people don't find perl5 inaccessible at all Who? Do you know anybody who hacks the regex engine? It happens that Merijn does, partly as a side effect of being an active Perl 5 committer. But assuming that you're questioning his use of many, then I agree with you. Few people find perl5 accessible. Mostly as a side effect of banging their heads at it until it starts to change from inaccessible to accessible. And inaccessibility is something that both perl6 and parrot should actively strive to avoid. Having looked at src/hash.c today, I fear that currently parrot is showing signs of failing in this. I wonder how hard it would be to actually convert perl 5 formats to Perl6::Form. Having never used the former myself, I wouldn't really know the order of magnitude of this problem. It's probably easier to implement strict perl5 formats as a compatibility module, using the exiting Perl 5 source and parrot's NCI. Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl 6 fears
The current list of fears is: You don't include my personal fear. FEAR: I will need a lobotomy before I can make sense of Perl 6! -- Stop the infinite loop, I want to get off! http://surreal.istic.org/ Paraphernalia/Never hides your broken bones,/ And I don't know why you'd want to try:/ It's plain to see you're on your own.-- Paul Simon The documentation that can be written is not the true documentation.
Re: Perl 6 fears
Here is my part. On Oct 24, 2005, at 07:20 , Juerd wrote: I've created pugs/docs/quickref/fears, a list of Perl 6 fears. Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! [snip] : FEAR: Perl 6 has too many operators! FEAR: Perl 6 has so many operators that it runs out of Unicode character repertoire :) # Time to learn (Hanzi|Kanji) for that? : FEAR: I will never be able to type Unicode ops! FEAR: I will need to hack an input method just to type those ops! : FEAR: Unicode ops cannot be read by me! FEAR: Unicode ops cannot be read by the compiler! : FEAR: Perl 6 will be too much like Haskell! Perl 6 will be too much like Ruby! # IMHO it already is and I love it! : FEAR: Perl 6 is made for big programs, not for oneliners and short : scripts! FEAR: Unicode ops of Perl 6 ought to make short scripts easier but how the heck can I type in those on shell? Dan the Perl 6 User -- Whatever that Means
Re: Perl 6 fears
Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! Fear: Perl 6 will not attract enough interested developers and companies to gain momentum. People will continue to be excited about digital watches and PHP 5. Regards, Christian -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://christian.web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ If God were a Kantian, who would not have us till we came to Him from the purest and best motives, who could be saved? -- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Re: Perl 6 fears
Christian Renz wrote: Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! Fear: Perl 6 will not attract enough interested developers and companies to gain momentum. People will continue to be excited about digital watches and PHP 5. I think Perl 6 will take time to insterest developers. One of the main reasons is because it is taking too long (not blaming, just stating). Another is because it will take too long to port all CPAN modules to Perl 6 (for this I suggest a Porters force-task to interact with current CPAN module owners and help and/or port their modules). Meanwhile, I think Perl 6 includes some amazing features people are waiting for. A lot of current perl hackers will love to start using it. But stability is important, and companies will wait before using it. I know you all know this, but I though it was good to state it again. Cheers Alberto -- Alberto Simões - Departamento de Informática - Universidade do Minho Campus de Gualtar - 4710-057 Braga - Portugal As traduções são como as mulheres. Quando são fieis, não são boas. Quando são boas, não são fieis.
Re: Perl 6 fears
On 10/24/05, Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! FEAR: Perl6 internals will be just as inaccessable as p5 FEAR: The Perl6 process is driving away too many good developers FEAR: Perl6 will not be as portable as p5 FEAR: Perl6 will not be able to fix the stigma of just a scripting language or line noise FEAR: Perl6 is un-necessary and the time, money, and resources is impacting p5. FEAR: There is too much misinformation surrounding Perl6 for people to feel comfortable. This last fear is likely the reason why you are collecting this list. I think the biggest problem is accessability and visibility for the casual observer. Unless you are devoted to the list and the IRC channels and the conferences your perception of what is and isn't Perl6 is out of date. We don't have a single source where people can go for relatively up to the minute facts concerning the project. Juerd Cheers, Joshua Gatcomb a.k.a. Limbic~Region
Re: Perl 6 fears
On 10/24/05, Joshua Gatcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/24/05, Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! This really isn't a fear as much as it is a complaint. It has to do with design decisions and the list. Perl 5 was my rewrite of Perl. I want Perl 6 to be the community's rewrite of Perl and of the community. - Larry Wall I think a lot of people that would contribute, myself included, are put off by the fact that it is nearly impossible to get a clear decision rendered on the list. Threads spin off tangents and typically end not in an answer, but in a loss of energy in trying to get back to the original question. My contribution to Perl6 has primarily been in advocation. I have contributed tests and code examples to Pugs as well as asked questions on the list. I would do more if getting answers was easier. Cheers, Joshua Gatcomb a.k.a. Limbic~Region
Re: Perl 6 fears
On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 02:47:58PM +0100, Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões wrote: Another is because it will take too long to port all CPAN modules to Perl 6 (for this I suggest a Porters force-task to interact with current CPAN module owners and help and/or port their modules). I think Autrijus has the right idea that Perl 5 CPAN modules should just work in Perl 6 without change. Just as Perl 6 is the community rewrite of Perl 5, moving a module from CPAN to 6PAN should not be done as a hasty make sure everything is moved over kind of event, but rather should be done as a way of choosing the best features out of the various Perl 5 modules on CPAN and peoples merging in the experience people have gained from using them as well as the experience people gain from *using* Perl 6. So, that is both good news and bad news - the good news is that CPAN will be just as useful for Perl 6 right from the start; the bad news is that the community rewrite of CPAN won't happen overnight but could take as long for CPAN as it did for Perl 6. (In fact, depending upon how you measure it, it will take longer because some modules will never be rewritten, but of course, those will be the modules that no-one feels a sufficiently pressing need to rewrite; while for other modules, the Perl 5 CPAN version will fit in well enough that there is no urgency to convert it, even though it is being used, until a few years done the road a rewrite allows additional Perl 6/6PAN capabilities to be merged in.) --
Re: Perl 6 fears
I fear that, at age 70, I shall not live long enough to become efficient with perl 6. Two full years ago I purchased and read Perl 6 Essentials. That lead me to this list which I have enjoyed but never felt competent to contribute much. Pretty much all of what I leaned in Essentials has been mucked with, or so it seems. I fear that Parrot will not come into widespread use until perl 6 is released. As a rocket scientist, who started before the first FORTRAN compiler was released, I like assembly language and the portability of the Parrot interpreter appeals to me. But perl magic cookies in an assembler? Will it ever fit into a 68HC11? Can it attract the attention of hardware manufacturers? -- -- Halloween == Oct 31 == Dec 25 == Christmas --
Re: Perl 6 fears
Joshua Gatcomb wrote: On 10/24/05, Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! FEAR: The Perl6 process is driving away too many good developers FEAR: Perl6 will not be as portable as p5 FEAR: Perl6 is un-necessary and the time, money, and resources is impacting p5. These are at the top of my list. Sooner or later big Perl advocates (like myself) are going to look for other languages because the future is too uncertain and unstable. Also, in terms of module rewriting: This is a massive effort. I don't know if anybody's looked at the internals of stuff like Class::DBI and its derivatives, but it's huge. The fact that there's not alot of active p5p'ers on this list should alarm people more. -Nate
Re: Perl 6 fears
On 10/24/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Gatcomb wrote: On 10/24/05, Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel free to add your own, or fears you heard about! FEAR: The Perl6 process is driving away too many good developers FEAR: Perl6 will not be as portable as p5 FEAR: Perl6 is un-necessary and the time, money, and resources is impacting p5. These are at the top of my list. Sooner or later big Perl advocates (like myself) are going to look for other languages because the future is too uncertain and unstable. Also, in terms of module rewriting: This is a massive effort. I don't know if anybody's looked at the internals of stuff like Class::DBI and its derivatives, but it's huge. I have. Module rewriting should be look at in terms of implementing something completely new to fit the current spec, at least in the beginning. Modules like CDBI are good because they have a lot of tests. So, you run the tests in P5 and have them access the P6 classes. Add new tests to test new P6-only features, like roles, and you're good to go. You don't need to read the internals to port the module. Plus, rewriting is going to happen over the space of 1-2 years, which is just fine. Remember, there's still Perl4 code out there, and that was over 10 years ago. In 10 years, there will still be Perl5 code out there, and it will run just fine on Parrot (and whatever other VMs are out there). This is the point I think you're missing - you can write pure native Perl5 in a Perl6 environment and call Perl6 modules, without a single issue. You can call Perl5 modules from Perl6 without a single issue. Everything else is icing. The fact that there's not alot of active p5p'ers on this list should alarm people more. Why? They're focused on Perl5, not Perl6, as it should be.
