Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Well the important thing is that conversations like this are happening
and we, as a community are thinking in alternative ways to promote
Smalltalk, and scale such promotion, being by copying your vision, one
country at the time, to by using alternative ways.

I think these are important conversations.

Cheers,

Offray

On 24/11/18 15:10, horrido wrote:
> Indeed, Lorenzo Schiavina has expressed interest in modelling a similar
> competition in Italy with my competition material! This was the vision I had
> three years ago.
>
>
>
> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>> Yes, as I told that would be a big deviation from the vision, but also a
>> way to bridge it with the community. Anyway making a pretty localized
>> competition in a Smalltalk variant for a particular population of a
>> specific country is also a way to promote Smalltalk and after done it
>> will bring lessons on efforts to results ratio and community involvement.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Offray
>>
>> On 24/11/18 7:53, horrido wrote:
>>> All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any
>>> rate, my
>>> competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
>>> forward with it.
>>>
>>> Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find
>>> time
>>> to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his
>>> busy
>>> schedule.
>>>
>>> And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the
>>> competition
>>> in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
>>> Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the
>>> United
>>> States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint,
>>> hint).
>>>
>>> Ah, the vicissitudes of being a competition organizer...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
 Hi,

 Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.

 Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when reaching
 to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach closer to
 anthropology instead of marketing). Many of us value your contributions,
 despite of approaching them in a critical way. For example, I think that
 promotion is important, but popularity is not, and the later is not a
 proper measure of the effectivity of the former. As a Latin American
 (that means people born and rise Latino America, not Latinos living in
 United States) for me is really alien the North American people (that
 means people living in the North region of the American continent that
 goes from Alaska to Patagonia and beyond) is kind of obsessed with
 popularity, competition, winning and losing, at least for what popular
 media depicts (even seems that loser is kind of a big insult over
 there). I don't think that winning a competition is the best way of
 making a younger become part of collaborative open community. Also, in
 an interconnected world, I feel more inclined to volunteer my time
 helping a young person from the Global South to become part of the
 Pharo/Smalltalk community that to volunteer my time for a pretty
 localized competence in a particular place of the Global North.

 That being said, I think that little money can help a lot (specially in
 the Global South) and I like the idea of making young people interested
 in the offerings that Smalltalk has. The average FLOSS project has a
 media of one developer [1], so even winning one more after the
 competition is a big win. But I would try to volunteer my time in
 something that brings the gap between Pharo communities and young people
 and between the Global North and the Global South, specifically in my
 Pharo powered project, Grafoscopio.

 [1] https://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html

 So I'm glad that you are open to suggestions. Here come mine about how
 this could be done, but this may also become something totally different
 of your actual proposal, but, hopefully, also more global, interesting,
 long lasting and a middle point between your promotional efforts and the
 activities of this community.

 # The Smalltalk Global Campfire

 Is an immersive inclusive global experience where new people (regardless
 of age, ethnicity or gender) can participate in a Smalltalk powered
 project and get mentorship from community members and start a long
 lasting relationship with a powerful technology, Smalltalk, and the
 friendly communities around it.

 ## How it will work

 Seasoned global Smalltalkers will propose a "tent", which is a set of
 related campfire projects (one or many) directed towards newbies,
 related with programming and coding, but also connected them with other
 activities which recognize that people comes from different backgrounds,
 have different interests and that 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

Of course, that's my preference, too, but I have to take whatever I can get.
I'm working against the clock and I need the very best help I can find.

And, yes, the most important consideration is success. The basic philosophy
I work with is this: A rising tide lifts all boats.



Richard Sargent wrote
> I think, from GemTalk's perspective, we would *prefer* an open product
> like
> Pharo. But, the most important consideration is that the competition be
> successful.
> 
> 
> 
>> Best,
>>
>> --
>> Mariano
>> https://twitter.com/MartinezPeck
>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

Indeed, Lorenzo Schiavina has expressed interest in modelling a similar
competition in Italy with my competition material! This was the vision I had
three years ago.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Yes, as I told that would be a big deviation from the vision, but also a
> way to bridge it with the community. Anyway making a pretty localized
> competition in a Smalltalk variant for a particular population of a
> specific country is also a way to promote Smalltalk and after done it
> will bring lessons on efforts to results ratio and community involvement.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> On 24/11/18 7:53, horrido wrote:
>> All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any
>> rate, my
>> competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
>> forward with it.
>>
>> Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find
>> time
>> to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his
>> busy
>> schedule.
>>
>> And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the
>> competition
>> in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
>> Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the
>> United
>> States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint,
>> hint).
>>
>> Ah, the vicissitudes of being a competition organizer...
>>
>>
>>
>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.
>>>
>>> Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when reaching
>>> to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach closer to
>>> anthropology instead of marketing). Many of us value your contributions,
>>> despite of approaching them in a critical way. For example, I think that
>>> promotion is important, but popularity is not, and the later is not a
>>> proper measure of the effectivity of the former. As a Latin American
>>> (that means people born and rise Latino America, not Latinos living in
>>> United States) for me is really alien the North American people (that
>>> means people living in the North region of the American continent that
>>> goes from Alaska to Patagonia and beyond) is kind of obsessed with
>>> popularity, competition, winning and losing, at least for what popular
>>> media depicts (even seems that loser is kind of a big insult over
>>> there). I don't think that winning a competition is the best way of
>>> making a younger become part of collaborative open community. Also, in
>>> an interconnected world, I feel more inclined to volunteer my time
>>> helping a young person from the Global South to become part of the
>>> Pharo/Smalltalk community that to volunteer my time for a pretty
>>> localized competence in a particular place of the Global North.
>>>
>>> That being said, I think that little money can help a lot (specially in
>>> the Global South) and I like the idea of making young people interested
>>> in the offerings that Smalltalk has. The average FLOSS project has a
>>> media of one developer [1], so even winning one more after the
>>> competition is a big win. But I would try to volunteer my time in
>>> something that brings the gap between Pharo communities and young people
>>> and between the Global North and the Global South, specifically in my
>>> Pharo powered project, Grafoscopio.
>>>
>>> [1] https://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html
>>>
>>> So I'm glad that you are open to suggestions. Here come mine about how
>>> this could be done, but this may also become something totally different
>>> of your actual proposal, but, hopefully, also more global, interesting,
>>> long lasting and a middle point between your promotional efforts and the
>>> activities of this community.
>>>
>>> # The Smalltalk Global Campfire
>>>
>>> Is an immersive inclusive global experience where new people (regardless
>>> of age, ethnicity or gender) can participate in a Smalltalk powered
>>> project and get mentorship from community members and start a long
>>> lasting relationship with a powerful technology, Smalltalk, and the
>>> friendly communities around it.
>>>
>>> ## How it will work
>>>
>>> Seasoned global Smalltalkers will propose a "tent", which is a set of
>>> related campfire projects (one or many) directed towards newbies,
>>> related with programming and coding, but also connected them with other
>>> activities which recognize that people comes from different backgrounds,
>>> have different interests and that an inclusive tech community is more
>>> than code[2]. The projects will allow newbies to learn coding, but also
>>> to express and connect it with wider concerns (documentation, civic
>>> tech, entrepreneurship, gaming, learning, etc).
>>>
>>> [2] https://morethancode.cc/about/
>>>
>>> Interested campers will find the different tents where they can join and
>>> the tent leader will prepare a set of (increasingly complex?) activities
>>> for the 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Yes, as I told that would be a big deviation from the vision, but also a
way to bridge it with the community. Anyway making a pretty localized
competition in a Smalltalk variant for a particular population of a
specific country is also a way to promote Smalltalk and after done it
will bring lessons on efforts to results ratio and community involvement.

Cheers,

Offray

On 24/11/18 7:53, horrido wrote:
> All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any rate, my
> competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
> forward with it.
>
> Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find time
> to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his busy
> schedule.
>
> And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the competition
> in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
> Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the United
> States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint, hint).
>
> Ah, the vicissitudes of being a competition organizer...
>
>
>
> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.
>>
>> Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when reaching
>> to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach closer to
>> anthropology instead of marketing). Many of us value your contributions,
>> despite of approaching them in a critical way. For example, I think that
>> promotion is important, but popularity is not, and the later is not a
>> proper measure of the effectivity of the former. As a Latin American
>> (that means people born and rise Latino America, not Latinos living in
>> United States) for me is really alien the North American people (that
>> means people living in the North region of the American continent that
>> goes from Alaska to Patagonia and beyond) is kind of obsessed with
>> popularity, competition, winning and losing, at least for what popular
>> media depicts (even seems that loser is kind of a big insult over
>> there). I don't think that winning a competition is the best way of
>> making a younger become part of collaborative open community. Also, in
>> an interconnected world, I feel more inclined to volunteer my time
>> helping a young person from the Global South to become part of the
>> Pharo/Smalltalk community that to volunteer my time for a pretty
>> localized competence in a particular place of the Global North.
>>
>> That being said, I think that little money can help a lot (specially in
>> the Global South) and I like the idea of making young people interested
>> in the offerings that Smalltalk has. The average FLOSS project has a
>> media of one developer [1], so even winning one more after the
>> competition is a big win. But I would try to volunteer my time in
>> something that brings the gap between Pharo communities and young people
>> and between the Global North and the Global South, specifically in my
>> Pharo powered project, Grafoscopio.
>>
>> [1] https://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html
>>
>> So I'm glad that you are open to suggestions. Here come mine about how
>> this could be done, but this may also become something totally different
>> of your actual proposal, but, hopefully, also more global, interesting,
>> long lasting and a middle point between your promotional efforts and the
>> activities of this community.
>>
>> # The Smalltalk Global Campfire
>>
>> Is an immersive inclusive global experience where new people (regardless
>> of age, ethnicity or gender) can participate in a Smalltalk powered
>> project and get mentorship from community members and start a long
>> lasting relationship with a powerful technology, Smalltalk, and the
>> friendly communities around it.
>>
>> ## How it will work
>>
>> Seasoned global Smalltalkers will propose a "tent", which is a set of
>> related campfire projects (one or many) directed towards newbies,
>> related with programming and coding, but also connected them with other
>> activities which recognize that people comes from different backgrounds,
>> have different interests and that an inclusive tech community is more
>> than code[2]. The projects will allow newbies to learn coding, but also
>> to express and connect it with wider concerns (documentation, civic
>> tech, entrepreneurship, gaming, learning, etc).
>>
>> [2] https://morethancode.cc/about/
>>
>> Interested campers will find the different tents where they can join and
>> the tent leader will prepare a set of (increasingly complex?) activities
>> for the members of the tent. Campers will work in the activities on a
>> weekly basis and setup and open source code repository for working
>> together.
>>
>> Coordination language for the Global Campfire will be English for tent
>> leaders, but campers can use native language for communication between
>> them and for some activities (local 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Richard Sargent]

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:27 Mariano Martinez Peck 
>
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:54 AM horrido  wrote:
>
>> All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any
>> rate, my
>> competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
>> forward with it.
>>
>> Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find time
>> to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his
>> busy
>> schedule.
>>
>> And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the
>> competition
>> in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
>> Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the
>> United
>> States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint,
>> hint).
>>
>>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Please note that for the people that put the money might not be the same
> doing it in a commercial Smalltalk rather than an open-source one.
> Sure, most commercial Smalltalks do offer open source licenses, but that's
> not the same as being an open source Smalltalk. So, I don't know what did
> you promise for the competition, but if it was with Pharo, it may be they
> only want Pharo or at least an open source Smalltalk.
>

I think, from GemTalk's perspective, we would *prefer* an open product like
Pharo. But, the most important consideration is that the competition be
successful.



> Best,
>
> --
> Mariano
> https://twitter.com/MartinezPeck
> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Mariano Martinez Peck]

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:54 AM horrido  wrote:

> All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any rate,
> my
> competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
> forward with it.
>
> Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find time
> to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his busy
> schedule.
>
> And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the
> competition
> in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
> Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the
> United
> States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint, hint).
>
>
Hi Richard,

Please note that for the people that put the money might not be the same
doing it in a commercial Smalltalk rather than an open-source one.
Sure, most commercial Smalltalks do offer open source licenses, but that's
not the same as being an open source Smalltalk. So, I don't know what did
you promise for the competition, but if it was with Pharo, it may be they
only want Pharo or at least an open source Smalltalk.

Best,

-- 
Mariano
https://twitter.com/MartinezPeck
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

All of these are good ideas. But they deviate from my vision. At any rate, my
competition idea was a big hit in Salta, and I am committed to moving
forward with it.

Since nobody has stepped up to the plate, David Buck will try to find time
to code the competition. However, progress will be slow because of his busy
schedule.

And since David is not familiar with Pharo, we'll have to do the competition
in VisualWorks, after all. Perhaps in the next edition of the James
Robertson Memorial Programming Competition (hopefully in 2021 for the United
States), someone will port the VisualWorks code over to Pharo (hint, hint).

Ah, the vicissitudes of being a competition organizer...



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.
> 
> Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when reaching
> to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach closer to
> anthropology instead of marketing). Many of us value your contributions,
> despite of approaching them in a critical way. For example, I think that
> promotion is important, but popularity is not, and the later is not a
> proper measure of the effectivity of the former. As a Latin American
> (that means people born and rise Latino America, not Latinos living in
> United States) for me is really alien the North American people (that
> means people living in the North region of the American continent that
> goes from Alaska to Patagonia and beyond) is kind of obsessed with
> popularity, competition, winning and losing, at least for what popular
> media depicts (even seems that loser is kind of a big insult over
> there). I don't think that winning a competition is the best way of
> making a younger become part of collaborative open community. Also, in
> an interconnected world, I feel more inclined to volunteer my time
> helping a young person from the Global South to become part of the
> Pharo/Smalltalk community that to volunteer my time for a pretty
> localized competence in a particular place of the Global North.
> 
> That being said, I think that little money can help a lot (specially in
> the Global South) and I like the idea of making young people interested
> in the offerings that Smalltalk has. The average FLOSS project has a
> media of one developer [1], so even winning one more after the
> competition is a big win. But I would try to volunteer my time in
> something that brings the gap between Pharo communities and young people
> and between the Global North and the Global South, specifically in my
> Pharo powered project, Grafoscopio.
> 
> [1] https://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html
> 
> So I'm glad that you are open to suggestions. Here come mine about how
> this could be done, but this may also become something totally different
> of your actual proposal, but, hopefully, also more global, interesting,
> long lasting and a middle point between your promotional efforts and the
> activities of this community.
> 
> # The Smalltalk Global Campfire
> 
> Is an immersive inclusive global experience where new people (regardless
> of age, ethnicity or gender) can participate in a Smalltalk powered
> project and get mentorship from community members and start a long
> lasting relationship with a powerful technology, Smalltalk, and the
> friendly communities around it.
> 
> ## How it will work
> 
> Seasoned global Smalltalkers will propose a "tent", which is a set of
> related campfire projects (one or many) directed towards newbies,
> related with programming and coding, but also connected them with other
> activities which recognize that people comes from different backgrounds,
> have different interests and that an inclusive tech community is more
> than code[2]. The projects will allow newbies to learn coding, but also
> to express and connect it with wider concerns (documentation, civic
> tech, entrepreneurship, gaming, learning, etc).
> 
> [2] https://morethancode.cc/about/
> 
> Interested campers will find the different tents where they can join and
> the tent leader will prepare a set of (increasingly complex?) activities
> for the members of the tent. Campers will work in the activities on a
> weekly basis and setup and open source code repository for working
> together.
> 
> Coordination language for the Global Campfire will be English for tent
> leaders, but campers can use native language for communication between
> them and for some activities (local documentation, translations) as we
> don't want to impose a unique language to become part of a community and
> we recognize active Smalltalkers from around the world that can help
> local communities, made them stronger and better connected.
> 
> ## Tent medals
> 
> Becoming part of a open collaborative community is mostly about being
> able to help each other and how you and the community create value for
> each other. So while this is not a competition, we recognize that small
> money 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 23/11/18 19:06, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.
>
> Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when
> reaching to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach
> closer to anthropology instead of marketing).
>
I meant from anthropology instead than from marketing... Sorry for all
other typos, hopefully they will be not so many.

Cheers,

Offray

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

Thanks for your positive and critical comments, as usual Ben.

Richard I think that is important to listen to a community when reaching
to it (I remember a talk we had where I suggested an approach closer to
anthropology instead of marketing). Many of us value your contributions,
despite of approaching them in a critical way. For example, I think that
promotion is important, but popularity is not, and the later is not a
proper measure of the effectivity of the former. As a Latin American
(that means people born and rise Latino America, not Latinos living in
United States) for me is really alien the North American people (that
means people living in the North region of the American continent that
goes from Alaska to Patagonia and beyond) is kind of obsessed with
popularity, competition, winning and losing, at least for what popular
media depicts (even seems that loser is kind of a big insult over
there). I don't think that winning a competition is the best way of
making a younger become part of collaborative open community. Also, in
an interconnected world, I feel more inclined to volunteer my time
helping a young person from the Global South to become part of the
Pharo/Smalltalk community that to volunteer my time for a pretty
localized competence in a particular place of the Global North.

That being said, I think that little money can help a lot (specially in
the Global South) and I like the idea of making young people interested
in the offerings that Smalltalk has. The average FLOSS project has a
media of one developer [1], so even winning one more after the
competition is a big win. But I would try to volunteer my time in
something that brings the gap between Pharo communities and young people
and between the Global North and the Global South, specifically in my
Pharo powered project, Grafoscopio.

[1] https://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html

So I'm glad that you are open to suggestions. Here come mine about how
this could be done, but this may also become something totally different
of your actual proposal, but, hopefully, also more global, interesting,
long lasting and a middle point between your promotional efforts and the
activities of this community.

# The Smalltalk Global Campfire

Is an immersive inclusive global experience where new people (regardless
of age, ethnicity or gender) can participate in a Smalltalk powered
project and get mentorship from community members and start a long
lasting relationship with a powerful technology, Smalltalk, and the
friendly communities around it.

## How it will work

Seasoned global Smalltalkers will propose a "tent", which is a set of
related campfire projects (one or many) directed towards newbies,
related with programming and coding, but also connected them with other
activities which recognize that people comes from different backgrounds,
have different interests and that an inclusive tech community is more
than code[2]. The projects will allow newbies to learn coding, but also
to express and connect it with wider concerns (documentation, civic
tech, entrepreneurship, gaming, learning, etc).

[2] https://morethancode.cc/about/

Interested campers will find the different tents where they can join and
the tent leader will prepare a set of (increasingly complex?) activities
for the members of the tent. Campers will work in the activities on a
weekly basis and setup and open source code repository for working together.

Coordination language for the Global Campfire will be English for tent
leaders, but campers can use native language for communication between
them and for some activities (local documentation, translations) as we
don't want to impose a unique language to become part of a community and
we recognize active Smalltalkers from around the world that can help
local communities, made them stronger and better connected.

## Tent medals

Becoming part of a open collaborative community is mostly about being
able to help each other and how you and the community create value for
each other. So while this is not a competition, we recognize that small
money can be an important incentive to keep communities dynamic.

At the end of the Campfire the community will provide with Member Badges
and Tent Medals which recognize the work done by all the participants
and also will give a small money incentive for the tent that made the
best work, so the tent can decide how to spend it better. The evaluation
will be done for each Tent leader, and also two external judges.

The Tent Medals will be:

  * 1 Gold Medal: XXX Dollars.
  * 1 Silver Medal: XYZ Dollars.
  * 1 Bronze Medal: ABC Dollars.

## Closing

I really don't know about the details here: How do we assign the prices?
There is any better place that the one referred at [2] to showcase the
important of going beyond code in tech communities? What is the proper
duration for the Campfire? This is just a draft, but I think that this
is something I would like to volunteer for and 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

David Buck provided a revision on his proposal:

I agree with tossing the VM hack - it's not worth it.

An objective score is best and I would prefer not to score based on number
of classes, number of methods or method size.  The score should be simply
the highest total of captured cells in the game within a certain time period
(eg. 60 seconds).

Here's how I imagine this would work:  The game is run in several rounds. In
each round, we throw in a new aspect to the game (kill cells, teleports,
etc). For each round, we provide some sample boards for the students to test
their algorithms on their own computers.  At the end of the round, the
students submit their code to us.

We then take each submission run it on our computer with a new board that
the students haven't seen.  As we run the game, we capture the moves and the
score after each move.  We can then take the top 20 (or so) submissions and
create a video.  I would like to see the video look like an Olympic event -
every 10 seconds, show the current time versus the best score at that time. 
It would also be nice to have a running audio commentary for the video.  We
could then stream the video real-time for the teams to watch and we can make
the video available after the stream is finished for teams who may have
missed the live stream or wish to watch it again.

All of the rounds up to the final round are just "practice rounds" for
bragging rights.  The final round is what determines which team wins the
scholarship prizes.

If we do it well, we should be able to get media attention such as local or
national news.

--

Sounds good to me! No hacking the VM. It looks like it shouldn't be too
difficult to implement.




horrido wrote
> Thank you for your well-considered responses. I appreciate them.
> 
> As I said in the original post, I am open to an alternative approach to
> the
> competition. The current approach may be problematic, I don't know.
> 
> I still want a five-round four-person team event. I want to stretch this
> out
> for maximum effect. I want to structure it like a sporting event in order
> to
> raise excitement.
> 
> There are several key points:
> 
> 1) It has to sufficiently challenging to the contestants so that they
> really
> learn to use Pharo effectively. This should also help to mitigate
> cheating.
> After all, where are they going to find a sharp Smalltalker to aid in
> deception? ;-)
> 
> 2) It has to be easy to "judge" each round. This should be automatable.
> After all, if there are 500 teams, we don't want to spend countless hours
> judging the team submissions manually. It would be daunting.
> 
> At this point, I welcome any new ideas for the competition.
> 
> 
> 
> Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
>> OK, sorry.  I missed that.
>> 
>> Now I've read it. And it requires a customized VM that can count
>> bytecodes
>> executed against a budget and terminate execution if the budget is
>> exceeded.
>> 
>> For the developer it requires an awareness of the relationship between
>> bytecodes and source code.  I, personally, have virtually no idea what
>> that relationship is.  I used Smalltalk as a high level language and try
>> not to worry about how expensive things are until it actually matters.  I
>> think that is most developers.
>> 
>> So I'm not really a fan of this contest approach.  The implementation is
>> certainly beyond my skills.  I have been dabbling with Squeak since its
>> release and only recently trying to get into Pharo "in anger" because I
>> have a couple projects I personally want to realize.  I'm finding the
>> entire thing to be really fast moving and hard to get my head around and
>> the VM is pretty much still impenetrable to me after a couple months
>> trying to build one.
>> 
>> So I'm definitely not your guy and the number of people who are on top of
>> the VM enough to pull this off is likely on the order of ten.
>> 
>> Maybe a different kind of coding contest?  I'd try adapting problems from
>> some existing competition questions.
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 6:32 PM, horrido 
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Basically, implementing what was outlined in David Buck's document
>>> (attached
>>> to the original post). It may involve hacking the VM to count byte
>>> codes.
>>> 
>>> SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
>>> http://forum.world.st/file/t128560/SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
>>> http://forum.world.st/file/t128560/SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx;>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
 OK, I'll bite.
 
 What does "code the competition" mean exactly?
 
 I last used Smalltalk "in anger" pre-pharo with squeak.  I live ST and
 am
 looking for a way back "in" but
 TBH the changes from Squeak are vast and I have too many ideas to work
 on
 and keep hitting walls.
 
 I'm intrigued but need more direction.  Whatcha need - ELI5.
 
 
 
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:13 PM, horrido 
>>> 
 horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
  

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

Thank you for your well-considered responses. I appreciate them.

As I said in the original post, I am open to an alternative approach to the
competition. The current approach may be problematic, I don't know.

I still want a five-round four-person team event. I want to stretch this out
for maximum effect. I want to structure it like a sporting event in order to
raise excitement.

There are several key points:

1) It has to sufficiently challenging to the contestants so that they really
learn to use Pharo effectively. This should also help to mitigate cheating.
After all, where are they going to find a sharp Smalltalker to aid in
deception? ;-)

2) It has to be easy to "judge" each round. This should be automatable.
After all, if there are 500 teams, we don't want to spend countless hours
judging the team submissions manually. It would be daunting.

At this point, I welcome any new ideas for the competition.



Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
> OK, sorry.  I missed that.
> 
> Now I've read it. And it requires a customized VM that can count bytecodes
> executed against a budget and terminate execution if the budget is
> exceeded.
> 
> For the developer it requires an awareness of the relationship between
> bytecodes and source code.  I, personally, have virtually no idea what
> that relationship is.  I used Smalltalk as a high level language and try
> not to worry about how expensive things are until it actually matters.  I
> think that is most developers.
> 
> So I'm not really a fan of this contest approach.  The implementation is
> certainly beyond my skills.  I have been dabbling with Squeak since its
> release and only recently trying to get into Pharo "in anger" because I
> have a couple projects I personally want to realize.  I'm finding the
> entire thing to be really fast moving and hard to get my head around and
> the VM is pretty much still impenetrable to me after a couple months
> trying to build one.
> 
> So I'm definitely not your guy and the number of people who are on top of
> the VM enough to pull this off is likely on the order of ten.
> 
> Maybe a different kind of coding contest?  I'd try adapting problems from
> some existing competition questions.
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 6:32 PM, horrido 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> Basically, implementing what was outlined in David Buck's document
>> (attached
>> to the original post). It may involve hacking the VM to count byte codes.
>> 
>> SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
>> http://forum.world.st/file/t128560/SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
>> http://forum.world.st/file/t128560/SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx;>  
>> 
>> 
>> Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
>>> OK, I'll bite.
>>> 
>>> What does "code the competition" mean exactly?
>>> 
>>> I last used Smalltalk "in anger" pre-pharo with squeak.  I live ST and
>>> am
>>> looking for a way back "in" but
>>> TBH the changes from Squeak are vast and I have too many ideas to work
>>> on
>>> and keep hitting walls.
>>> 
>>> I'm intrigued but need more direction.  Whatcha need - ELI5.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:13 PM, horrido 
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>>  wrote:
 
 No, the money isn't lost. I was merely suggesting that without some
 help,
 the
 marketing opportunity for this competition would be lost.
 
 I'm not sure you understand how much work is involved in this project.
 I
 will be doing a great deal of the heavy lifting. I have to setup the
 competition website server. I have to advertise or reach out to high
 schools
 across the country. I have to get local media interested in covering
 the
 competition. I have to look into producing the T-shirt swag, and
 shipping
 the T-shirts to all contest participants, and at an affordable rate to
 fit
 the budget. Those are only a few things off the top of my head.
 
 Coding the actual contest problems according to David Buck's
 prescription
 shouldn't be open-ended and shouldn't be a huge commitment. I imagine
 it
 would be a couple of months of work during spare time.
 
 
 
 jgfoster wrote
> Hi Richard,
> 
> So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t
> understand what you expected from us other than money. What else is
> needed
> to make your project a success? We are supposed to “code the
> competition”
> as well? Anything else?
> 
> Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about
> promoting
> Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you
> expertise
> at marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk
> community
> will be perceived by the new arrivals?
> 
> I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by
> this
> approach.
> 
> James
> 
> P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in
> you—throwing out 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Todd Blanchard via Pharo-users]

--- Begin Message ---
OK, sorry.  I missed that.

Now I've read it. And it requires a customized VM that can count bytecodes 
executed against a budget and terminate execution if the budget is exceeded.

For the developer it requires an awareness of the relationship between 
bytecodes and source code.  I, personally, have virtually no idea what that 
relationship is.  I used Smalltalk as a high level language and try not to 
worry about how expensive things are until it actually matters.  I think that 
is most developers.

So I'm not really a fan of this contest approach.  The implementation is 
certainly beyond my skills.  I have been dabbling with Squeak since its release 
and only recently trying to get into Pharo "in anger" because I have a couple 
projects I personally want to realize.  I'm finding the entire thing to be 
really fast moving and hard to get my head around and the VM is pretty much 
still impenetrable to me after a couple months trying to build one.

So I'm definitely not your guy and the number of people who are on top of the 
VM enough to pull this off is likely on the order of ten.

Maybe a different kind of coding contest?  I'd try adapting problems from some 
existing competition questions.

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 6:32 PM, horrido  wrote:
> 
> Basically, implementing what was outlined in David Buck's document (attached
> to the original post). It may involve hacking the VM to count byte codes.
> 
> SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
>  >  
> 
> 
> Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
>> OK, I'll bite.
>> 
>> What does "code the competition" mean exactly?
>> 
>> I last used Smalltalk "in anger" pre-pharo with squeak.  I live ST and am
>> looking for a way back "in" but
>> TBH the changes from Squeak are vast and I have too many ideas to work on
>> and keep hitting walls.
>> 
>> I'm intrigued but need more direction.  Whatcha need - ELI5.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:13 PM, horrido 
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> No, the money isn't lost. I was merely suggesting that without some help,
>>> the
>>> marketing opportunity for this competition would be lost.
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure you understand how much work is involved in this project. I
>>> will be doing a great deal of the heavy lifting. I have to setup the
>>> competition website server. I have to advertise or reach out to high
>>> schools
>>> across the country. I have to get local media interested in covering the
>>> competition. I have to look into producing the T-shirt swag, and shipping
>>> the T-shirts to all contest participants, and at an affordable rate to
>>> fit
>>> the budget. Those are only a few things off the top of my head.
>>> 
>>> Coding the actual contest problems according to David Buck's prescription
>>> shouldn't be open-ended and shouldn't be a huge commitment. I imagine it
>>> would be a couple of months of work during spare time.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> jgfoster wrote
 Hi Richard,
 
 So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t
 understand what you expected from us other than money. What else is
 needed
 to make your project a success? We are supposed to “code the
 competition”
 as well? Anything else?
 
 Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about
 promoting
 Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you
 expertise
 at marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk community
 will be perceived by the new arrivals?
 
 I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by
 this
 approach.
 
 James
 
 P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in
 you—throwing out negative comments from behind a keyboard to score
 points
 when I might not be so harsh in person. 
 
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Richard Kenneth Eng 
>>> 
 horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
  wrote:
> 
> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
> 
> What a colossal lost opportunity!
> 
> 
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
>>> 
 horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
 mailto:
>>> 
 horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
 > wrote:
> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
> https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888
>  
> 
> https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888gt
>  
> ;;.
> 
> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Esteban Maringolo]

Richard,

Please apologize if my reply was too harsh and without anesthesia.
I'm happy a private company/person decided to fund this, I was there
and applauded it then and I still celebrate it, I really hope it does good.

What I'm skeptical about is about the return of this, and its
effectiveness given the initial proposal and shown material, and the
current loose definition/contents.

I'm not doubting about your dedication and previous marketing
activities, actually I believe it was quite efficient, and for the lack of
any ROI or equivalent measurement, I _believe_ that this challenge won't
add much. OTOH I also believe that if no harm is done, some action is
better than no action, and your challenge is certainly better than
just watching.

In terms of funding you only needed to raise the asked money, and you
succeeded. A majority vote was not necessary.
So it doesn't matter whether I agree, because I only speak for myself
and no one is entitled to speak on behalf of the community.

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo
El mié., 21 nov. 2018 a las 10:13, horrido
() escribió:
>
> From the very start of my advocacy four years ago, it has always been about
> marketing. It has always been about reaching out to as many people as
> possible to raise public awareness. I cannot be sure, but I believe I've
> reached out to more than 100,000 people around the world who did not
> previously know about Smalltalk, or who thought Smalltalk was dead. Whether
> or not this is a positive outcome remains to be seen.
>
> The high school competition is another marketing tool, and probably the most
> powerful one at my disposal. From my perspective, it is not a waste of
> money. Seeding thousands of young minds across the country with knowledge of
> Smalltalk may have profound consequences in the years to come, just as
> seeding thousands of college students with experience in Linux helped to
> lift Linux into the mainstream during the 1990s and 2000s. Advocacy begins
> with our younger generation – that's the only way to ensure the future.
>
> From what I can tell, the above message resonated with the Smalltalks 2018
> conference. Everybody seemed pumped. This suggests to me that my strategy is
> sound.
>
> It all boils down to this: Either you agree with my marketing strategy, or
> you don't. If you don't, then I am not sanguine about Smalltalk's future.
> Its community will always remain very small. If that's acceptable, then my
> advocacy is no longer needed.
>
> Allow me to make one final comment: There's seems to be a perception that my
> effort over the past four years has been insignificant and without monetary
> value. I've worked on this for thousands of man-hours. Even at minimum wage,
> it would amount to $60,000+. I have never asked for a dollar, nor even any
> recognition. I've done all this for the good of the Smalltalk community. It
> has been pure altruism all the way.
>
> So it is disingenuous to imply that I'm offloading too much on others in the
> Smalltalk community. I'm not asking for much, certainly much less than I've
> already given these past four years.
>
> You are correct, the competition plan is still a work-in-progress. That's
> why I'm asking for collaboration. If I could do it all alone, I would.
>
>
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> > It feels to me that the money came unexpectedly and your plan was just
> > a loosely defined idea.
> >
> > Appealing to money or competition to youngsters in a pop culture is a
> > waste of money,
> > Go to "pop tech" conferences and see what people value and praise.
> > It's never money.
> >
> > And yes, there are hackatons that pay money to winners, but IMO what
> > participants value more is the recognition.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Esteban A. Maringolo
> > El mar., 20 nov. 2018 a las 19:37, Richard Kenneth Eng
> > (
>
> > horrido.hobbies@
>
> > ) escribió:
> >>
> >> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
> >>
> >> What a colossal lost opportunity!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
>
> > horrido.hobbies@
>
> >  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
> >>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
> >>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference.
> >>>
> >>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
> >>> attached.
> >>>
> >>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
> >>> alternative suggestions.
> >>>
> >>> The reason for this post is the following...
> >>>
> >>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified
> >>> to do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
> >>>
> >>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
> >>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
> >>> original competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but
> >>> since Cincom did not see fit to support my 

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Ben Coman via Pharo-users]

--- Begin Message ---
Please keep in mind that I take the time to write this because I'd like you
to succeed.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 21:13, horrido  wrote:

> From the very start of my advocacy four years ago, it has always been about
> marketing. It has always been about reaching out to as many people as
> possible to raise public awareness. I cannot be sure, but I believe I've
> reached out to more than 100,000 people around the world who did not
> previously know about Smalltalk, or who thought Smalltalk was dead. Whether
> or not this is a positive outcome remains to be seen.
>

I'm sure its had a positive effect overall, but of course its very hard to
judge.
The latency is large and conversion rate low, but it all helps.
Your later articles improved a lot in providing a balanced presentation.


The high school competition is another marketing tool, and probably the most
> powerful one at my disposal. From my perspective, it is not a waste of
> money. Seeding thousands of young minds across the country with knowledge
> of
> Smalltalk may have profound consequences in the years to come, just as
> seeding thousands of college students with experience in Linux helped to
> lift Linux into the mainstream during the 1990s and 2000s. Advocacy begins
> with our younger generation – that's the only way to ensure the future.
>

I do agree it has potential to make an impression on impressionable minds
and a back door approach to widely introduce professors to Pharo/Smalltalk
when their students complain about lesser tools.  I think what you are
trying to
achieve is ambitious but also worthwhile if you succeed.



> From what I can tell, the above message resonated with the Smalltalks 2018
> conference. Everybody seemed pumped. This suggests to me that my strategy
> is
> sound.
>
> It all boils down to this: Either you agree with my marketing strategy, or
> you don't. If you don't, then I am not sanguine about Smalltalk's future.
> Its community will always remain very small. If that's acceptable, then my
> advocacy is no longer needed.
>
> Allow me to make one final comment: There's seems to be a perception that
> my
> effort over the past four years has been insignificant and without monetary
> value. I've worked on this for thousands of man-hours.


Of course that background is not immediately apparent in remote
interactions.
Though I think its more that some believed your time would be better spent
on other activities
than thinking you've not put in significant effort.

But you don't spend a lot of time "here". You just drop in when you need
something. :)
And really thats okay to ask, but you need to manage your expectations
about how quickly people align their lives with your goals.

So its good to understand your effort, but also that just put yous on par
with others here.
If I consider it I'd guess I'd put in 4 hours every day for around 1500
hours a year,
and many others do much more.


Even at minimum wage,
> it would amount to $60,000+. I have never asked for a dollar, nor even any
> recognition. I've done all this for the good of the Smalltalk community. It
> has been pure altruism all the way.
>

But you see... that is "your" itch that you are scratching, so even when
its arduous you (presumably) don't mind.
The hard work provides a sense of achievement and well being.  Its an
emotional response.
its said that you can't argue someone out of an emotional position with a
logical argument.
All that left-brain right-brain stuff.  And thats where you're at.
So when people are contributing to Pharo to scratch an itch of their own,
and you're saying "come over here and scratch my itch"
its not surprising they don't drop everything and come running.
So much depends on their current circumstances and interests.


So it is disingenuous to imply that I'm offloading too much on others in
> the Smalltalk community.
>

"Disingenuous" implies a purposeful falsehood in our comments.  :)
Whereas everyone's comments here have been I believe our honest perceptions.

So its more like... there is a perception that I'm offloading too much on
others in the Smalltalk community
And marketing is all about perception...
So maybe you've just not have marketed yourself to us very well.


I'm not asking for much, certainly much less than I've already given these
> past four years.
>

I think its not so much about comparing respective efforts, but more about
what discretionary time people have available and their momentum with their
interests and priorities.



> You are correct, the competition plan is still a work-in-progress. That's
> why I'm asking for collaboration. If I could do it all alone, I would.
>

So you are big on marketing :).
Well consider us a market of coding resources you need to understand
what drives our desire to contribute.   Otherwise you are not marketing,
just advertising.

Personally I'm open to helping out, just not in the near term.
Hope you keep chipping away at it.
cheers -ben
--- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

>From the very start of my advocacy four years ago, it has always been about
marketing. It has always been about reaching out to as many people as
possible to raise public awareness. I cannot be sure, but I believe I've
reached out to more than 100,000 people around the world who did not
previously know about Smalltalk, or who thought Smalltalk was dead. Whether
or not this is a positive outcome remains to be seen.

The high school competition is another marketing tool, and probably the most
powerful one at my disposal. From my perspective, it is not a waste of
money. Seeding thousands of young minds across the country with knowledge of
Smalltalk may have profound consequences in the years to come, just as
seeding thousands of college students with experience in Linux helped to
lift Linux into the mainstream during the 1990s and 2000s. Advocacy begins
with our younger generation – that's the only way to ensure the future.

>From what I can tell, the above message resonated with the Smalltalks 2018
conference. Everybody seemed pumped. This suggests to me that my strategy is
sound.

It all boils down to this: Either you agree with my marketing strategy, or
you don't. If you don't, then I am not sanguine about Smalltalk's future.
Its community will always remain very small. If that's acceptable, then my
advocacy is no longer needed.

Allow me to make one final comment: There's seems to be a perception that my
effort over the past four years has been insignificant and without monetary
value. I've worked on this for thousands of man-hours. Even at minimum wage,
it would amount to $60,000+. I have never asked for a dollar, nor even any
recognition. I've done all this for the good of the Smalltalk community. It
has been pure altruism all the way.

So it is disingenuous to imply that I'm offloading too much on others in the
Smalltalk community. I'm not asking for much, certainly much less than I've
already given these past four years.

You are correct, the competition plan is still a work-in-progress. That's
why I'm asking for collaboration. If I could do it all alone, I would.



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> It feels to me that the money came unexpectedly and your plan was just
> a loosely defined idea.
> 
> Appealing to money or competition to youngsters in a pop culture is a
> waste of money,
> Go to "pop tech" conferences and see what people value and praise.
> It's never money.
> 
> And yes, there are hackatons that pay money to winners, but IMO what
> participants value more is the recognition.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo
> El mar., 20 nov. 2018 a las 19:37, Richard Kenneth Eng
> (

> horrido.hobbies@

> ) escribió:
>>
>> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
>>
>> What a colossal lost opportunity!
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
>>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
>>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference.
>>>
>>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
>>> attached.
>>>
>>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
>>> alternative suggestions.
>>>
>>> The reason for this post is the following...
>>>
>>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified
>>> to do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>>>
>>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
>>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
>>> original competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but
>>> since Cincom did not see fit to support my competition this year, I
>>> decided to go with Pharo.)
>>>
>>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
>>> to waste this opportunity.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Richard





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Esteban Maringolo]

It feels to me that the money came unexpectedly and your plan was just
a loosely defined idea.

Appealing to money or competition to youngsters in a pop culture is a
waste of money,
Go to "pop tech" conferences and see what people value and praise.
It's never money.

And yes, there are hackatons that pay money to winners, but IMO what
participants value more is the recognition.

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo
El mar., 20 nov. 2018 a las 19:37, Richard Kenneth Eng
() escribió:
>
> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
>
> What a colossal lost opportunity!
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng  
> wrote:
>>
>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018, the 
>> outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming competition. 
>> See My Keynote at the Salta Conference.
>>
>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See 
>> attached.
>>
>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to 
>> alternative suggestions.
>>
>> The reason for this post is the following...
>>
>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to do 
>> so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>>
>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition is 
>> in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original 
>> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom 
>> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with 
>> Pharo.)
>>
>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame to 
>> waste this opportunity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

I apologize for my premature reaction. I've observed that posts can get lost
or forgotten after a week or two amidst many other posts. I was a bit
nervous. My attempt at a "reminder" was clumsy.



Ben Coman wrote
> Getting no takers within a few days doesn't mean the end of the line.
> It means that there is something wrong with your strategy.





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

Basically, implementing what was outlined in David Buck's document (attached
to the original post). It may involve hacking the VM to count byte codes.

SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
  


Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> What does "code the competition" mean exactly?
> 
> I last used Smalltalk "in anger" pre-pharo with squeak.  I live ST and am
> looking for a way back "in" but
> TBH the changes from Squeak are vast and I have too many ideas to work on
> and keep hitting walls.
> 
> I'm intrigued but need more direction.  Whatcha need - ELI5.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:13 PM, horrido 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> No, the money isn't lost. I was merely suggesting that without some help,
>> the
>> marketing opportunity for this competition would be lost.
>> 
>> I'm not sure you understand how much work is involved in this project. I
>> will be doing a great deal of the heavy lifting. I have to setup the
>> competition website server. I have to advertise or reach out to high
>> schools
>> across the country. I have to get local media interested in covering the
>> competition. I have to look into producing the T-shirt swag, and shipping
>> the T-shirts to all contest participants, and at an affordable rate to
>> fit
>> the budget. Those are only a few things off the top of my head.
>> 
>> Coding the actual contest problems according to David Buck's prescription
>> shouldn't be open-ended and shouldn't be a huge commitment. I imagine it
>> would be a couple of months of work during spare time.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> jgfoster wrote
>>> Hi Richard,
>>> 
>>> So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t
>>> understand what you expected from us other than money. What else is
>>> needed
>>> to make your project a success? We are supposed to “code the
>>> competition”
>>> as well? Anything else?
>>> 
>>> Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about
>>> promoting
>>> Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you
>>> expertise
>>> at marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk community
>>> will be perceived by the new arrivals?
>>> 
>>> I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by
>>> this
>>> approach.
>>> 
>>> James
>>> 
>>> P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in
>>> you—throwing out negative comments from behind a keyboard to score
>>> points
>>> when I might not be so harsh in person. 
>>> 
 On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Richard Kenneth Eng 
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>>  wrote:
 
 Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
 
 What a colossal lost opportunity!
 
 
 On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> mailto:
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
 Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
 the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
 competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
 https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888
 https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888gt;;.
 
 Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition.
 See
 attached.
 
 I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
 alternative suggestions.
 
 The reason for this post is the following...
 
 I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified
 to
 do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
 
 Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the
 competition
 is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
 original competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but
 since Cincom did not see fit to support my competition this year, I
 decided to go with Pharo.)
 
 Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
 to waste this opportunity.
 
 Regards,
 Richard
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Todd Blanchard via Pharo-users]

--- Begin Message ---
OK, I'll bite.

What does "code the competition" mean exactly?

I last used Smalltalk "in anger" pre-pharo with squeak.  I live ST and am 
looking for a way back "in" but
TBH the changes from Squeak are vast and I have too many ideas to work on and 
keep hitting walls.

I'm intrigued but need more direction.  Whatcha need - ELI5.



> On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:13 PM, horrido  wrote:
> 
> No, the money isn't lost. I was merely suggesting that without some help, the
> marketing opportunity for this competition would be lost.
> 
> I'm not sure you understand how much work is involved in this project. I
> will be doing a great deal of the heavy lifting. I have to setup the
> competition website server. I have to advertise or reach out to high schools
> across the country. I have to get local media interested in covering the
> competition. I have to look into producing the T-shirt swag, and shipping
> the T-shirts to all contest participants, and at an affordable rate to fit
> the budget. Those are only a few things off the top of my head.
> 
> Coding the actual contest problems according to David Buck's prescription
> shouldn't be open-ended and shouldn't be a huge commitment. I imagine it
> would be a couple of months of work during spare time.
> 
> 
> 
> jgfoster wrote
>> Hi Richard,
>> 
>> So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t
>> understand what you expected from us other than money. What else is needed
>> to make your project a success? We are supposed to “code the competition”
>> as well? Anything else?
>> 
>> Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about promoting
>> Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you expertise
>> at marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk community
>> will be perceived by the new arrivals?
>> 
>> I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by this
>> approach.
>> 
>> James
>> 
>> P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in
>> you—throwing out negative comments from behind a keyboard to score points
>> when I might not be so harsh in person. 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Richard Kenneth Eng 
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
>>> 
>>> What a colossal lost opportunity!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> mailto:
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> > wrote:
>>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
>>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
>>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
>>> https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888
>>>  
>>> ;.
>>> 
>>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
>>> attached.
>>> 
>>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
>>> alternative suggestions.
>>> 
>>> The reason for this post is the following...
>>> 
>>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
>>> do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>>> 
>>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
>>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
>>> original competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but
>>> since Cincom did not see fit to support my competition this year, I
>>> decided to go with Pharo.)
>>> 
>>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
>>> to waste this opportunity.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html 
> 
--- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

No, the money isn't lost. I was merely suggesting that without some help, the
marketing opportunity for this competition would be lost.

I'm not sure you understand how much work is involved in this project. I
will be doing a great deal of the heavy lifting. I have to setup the
competition website server. I have to advertise or reach out to high schools
across the country. I have to get local media interested in covering the
competition. I have to look into producing the T-shirt swag, and shipping
the T-shirts to all contest participants, and at an affordable rate to fit
the budget. Those are only a few things off the top of my head.

Coding the actual contest problems according to David Buck's prescription
shouldn't be open-ended and shouldn't be a huge commitment. I imagine it
would be a couple of months of work during spare time.



jgfoster wrote
> Hi Richard,
> 
> So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t
> understand what you expected from us other than money. What else is needed
> to make your project a success? We are supposed to “code the competition”
> as well? Anything else?
> 
> Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about promoting
> Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you expertise
> at marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk community
> will be perceived by the new arrivals?
> 
> I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by this
> approach.
> 
> James
> 
> P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in
> you—throwing out negative comments from behind a keyboard to score points
> when I might not be so harsh in person. 
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Richard Kenneth Eng 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
>> 
>> What a colossal lost opportunity!
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  mailto:

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018,
>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
>> https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888;.
>> 
>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
>> attached.
>> 
>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
>> alternative suggestions.
>> 
>> The reason for this post is the following...
>> 
>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
>> do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>> 
>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
>> original competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but
>> since Cincom did not see fit to support my competition this year, I
>> decided to go with Pharo.)
>> 
>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
>> to waste this opportunity.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Richard





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Ben Coman]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
> wrote:
>
>> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at *Smalltalks 2018*,
>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
>> .
>>
>
This is really great.  I applaud your drive to pursue your competition idea.



>
>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
>> attached.
>>
>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
>> alternative suggestions.
>>
>> The reason for this post is the following...
>>
>> I need volunteers to code the competition.
>>
>
Your request is really open ended and while maybe not you intent, sounds
like you want someone to deliver the whole thing for you.
That could be a 10 to 20 day commitment at a $1000/day - who knows from the
scope you've presented.  Its like your asking for a blank cheque.
And it "feels" like the full onus would be on the developer and that
responsibility can be off-putting.
Even people that may be inclined to help may not have the spare cycles for
that commitment.
They can be already be doing a *lot* of volunteer time to help Pharo which
suits their priorities.
Even people who believe your project is a priority may be caught up in
commitments they can't drop.
So there are a lot of precondition hurdles you need to hurdle to get
helpers.

So what you are doing is kicking off an "new" open source project.
And further, in essence what you are doing is building a mini-community of
helpers (even if that is one helper, and notice the distinction from pure
volunteer).
Now as ESR says... "When you start community-building, what you need to be
able to present is a plausible promise. Your program doesn't have to work
particularly well. It can be crude, buggy, incomplete, and poorly
documented. What it must not fail to do is (a) run, and (b) convince
potential co-developers that it can be evolved into something really neat
in the foreseeable future."
http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s10.html



> I am nowhere near qualified to do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>>
>
This is a red herring.  The majority of your "plausible promise" is the
model, with unit tests demonstrating its operation.
That should be able to be coded platform independently.

When you progress to needing platform specific knowledge (e.g. gui,
networking, web framerworks)
you can start by asking specific questions in relation to your "plausible
promise".
You can encourage people can install your "plausible promise" on their
machines to provide concrete examples to help the discussion,
The trick is, once someone has installed your "plausible promise" and see
it working in their infancy it becomes much more real for them,
sparks ideas for small improvements and they are *much* more likely be
inspired to help you.

So personally, in general I'm open to helping (and I'm quite susceptible to
being deeply drawn in)
I'm just not inspired enough right now to drop any of my other commitments
to take the lead with this.



>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original
>> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom
>> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with
>> Pharo.)
>>
>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
>> to waste this opportunity.
>>
>

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 06:37, Richard Kenneth Eng 
wrote:

> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
>

There are plenty of people here that are glad to donate significant time to
helping Pharo.
Frankly to imply otherwise is off putting and doesn't help you case.



> What a colossal lost opportunity!
>

Getting no takers within a few days doesn't mean the end of the line.
It means that there is something wrong with your strategy.
I've given you a few tips.  I hope you can adapt and persevere.  It would
be great to see this succeed.

Please flood us with any technical questions you need to overcome.
Very happy to help in this regard and it builds your presence and people's
familiarity with you and the project
and *then* you are much more likely people are drawn in to become involved.

HTH,
cheers -ben

>

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[James Foster]

Hi Richard,

So the  that we gave you is now “lost"? Perhaps people didn’t understand 
what you expected from us other than money. What else is needed to make your 
project a success? We are supposed to “code the competition” as well? Anything 
else?

Is this practice of insulting people (“Doesn’t anyone care about promoting 
Pharo?”) supposed to be motivating? Is it a demonstration of you expertise at 
marketing? Does it build confidence about how the Smalltalk community will be 
perceived by the new arrivals?

I’ve appreciated your blog posts and your passion, but I’m put off by this 
approach.

James

P.S. I realize that I’m probably doing what I’m criticizing in you—throwing out 
negative comments from behind a keyboard to score points when I might not be so 
harsh in person. 

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Richard Kenneth Eng  
> wrote:
> 
> Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?
> 
> What a colossal lost opportunity!
> 
> 
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng  > wrote:
> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at Smalltalks 2018, the 
> outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming competition. 
> See My Keynote at the Salta Conference 
> .
> 
> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See 
> attached.
> 
> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to alternative 
> suggestions.
> 
> The reason for this post is the following...
> 
> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to do 
> so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
> 
> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition is 
> in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original 
> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom 
> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with 
> Pharo.)
> 
> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame to 
> waste this opportunity.
> 
> Regards,
> Richard

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Richard Kenneth Eng]

Not even a single nibble? Doesn't anyone care about promoting Pharo?

What a colossal lost opportunity!


On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 09:29, Richard Kenneth Eng 
wrote:

> Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at *Smalltalks 2018*,
> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
> .
>
> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
> attached.
>
> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
> alternative suggestions.
>
> The reason for this post is the following...
>
> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
> do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>
> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original
> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom
> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with
> Pharo.)
>
> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame to
> waste this opportunity.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[horrido]

That doesn't work for me. First of all, my programming competition has a
strong marketing component. I cannot see how to market Smalltalk effectively
through AoC. My Salta keynote made this very clear.

AoC is unfocussed. It's not language-specific. It's basically all over the
place.

Second, I envision making the competition public knowledge in the (Canadian)
media. Again, I don't see how that's possible with AoC.

The competition includes promotional T-shirts. These shouldn't be linked
with AoC.

I have $25,000 and I'm not going to donate it all to AoC. That's practically
no bang for the buck in terms of marketing.



philippeback wrote
> A good way to do this is to align it with Advent of Code 2018.
> 
> AoC is actually full of interesting challenges and one can do private
> leaderboards.
> 
> This will also put Pharo on the AoC map/subreddit where challenges are
> discussed.
> 
> Phil
> 
> On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 15:29 Richard Kenneth Eng 

> horrido.hobbies@

> wrote:
> 
>  Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at *Smalltalks
> 2018*,
>> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
>> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
>> https://hackernoon.com/my-keynote-at-the-salta-conference-435dfaccc888;.
>>
>> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
>> attached.
>>
>> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
>> alternative suggestions.
>>
>> The reason for this post is the following...
>>
>> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
>> do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>>
>> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
>> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The
>> original
>> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since
>> Cincom
>> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with
>> Pharo.)
>>
>> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame
>> to
>> waste this opportunity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[p...@highoctane.be]

A good way to do this is to align it with Advent of Code 2018.

AoC is actually full of interesting challenges and one can do private
leaderboards.

This will also put Pharo on the AoC map/subreddit where challenges are
discussed.

Phil

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 15:29 Richard Kenneth Eng  Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at *Smalltalks 2018*,
> the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
> competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
> .
>
> Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
> attached.
>
> I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
> alternative suggestions.
>
> The reason for this post is the following...
>
> I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
> do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.
>
> Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition
> is in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original
> competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom
> did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with
> Pharo.)
>
> Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame to
> waste this opportunity.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>

[Pharo-users] My Keynote at the Salta Conference

[Richard Kenneth Eng]

Some of you may already be aware of my presentation at *Smalltalks 2018*,
the outcome of which was full funding for my Smalltalk programming
competition. See My Keynote at the Salta Conference
.

Three years ago, David Buck provided an outline for the competition. See
attached.

I would like to use that as a starting point, though I am open to
alternative suggestions.

The reason for this post is the following...

I need volunteers to code the competition. I am nowhere near qualified to
do so, as my knowledge of Pharo is limited.

Without help from Pharoers (or, at least, Smalltalkers), the competition is
in jeopardy. This is a great opportunity to promote Pharo. (The original
competition three years ago was going to use VisualWorks, but since Cincom
did not see fit to support my competition this year, I decided to go with
Pharo.)

Please contact me if anyone is interested. It would be a terrible shame to
waste this opportunity.

Regards,
Richard


SmalltalkContestIdeas.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document