Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, Andi Gutmans wrote: On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Alan Knowles wrote: This kind of bytes at a nerve when you are hunting for work and almost nobody mentions PHP here Anyway, A quick few ideas to throw in the pot.. - Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. I'm would hope that there a few people out there who could help out on this.. Call for Volunteers... - Either writing 'IT Press Friendly' release announcements, or gathering IT Press contacts, and faxing + emailing + phone followup on releases... When Zend first started out we actually offered the other guys in the PHP Group to send out press releases on new versions from the group. We had a PR woman write the press-release and then sent it to the Group for fixing. If I remember correctly they felt that open source projects don't need press releases so it kind of came to a halt. I think that is wishful thinking. Open Source projects are no different than any other project when it comes to advertising, if it does not get done somehow, the potential users that are not aware of it may not ever hear enough about it. Press releases is a form of free advertisement in the sense that the media that takes it up will spread the news for you at no cost. It should not be the only way to advertise PHP or any other Open Source projects, but definetly one that you should not give up. I think it is beneficial for everybody in the PHP community. I don't really share that feeling and think that even an open source project can get added exposure by press releases. I think if we can get enough press contacts (it probably shouldn't be too hard if a few people here know the right people) then it would definitely be a good thing. Press releases help because when IT people start seeing press releases all over it sinks in slowly. It shouldn't be too hard to have a couple of people taking care of this and having them send the press releases to php-dev for comments before they go out. Well, even if php-dev is not willing to support this idea, you at Zend should not stop yourselves from doing it. You have enough karma in the PHP and Open Source community to make new PHP version announcements. BTW, are you providing or willing to provide a RDF source of announcements of PHP and other Zend products? Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, Gavin Sherry wrote: On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Alan Knowles wrote: Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. Now this is a great idea, IMHO. For those who don't know, I'm a freelancing journalist writing PHP-related articles for German magazine, including the upcoming ''PHP Magazin'', which'll be the first PHP-focused print publication in the world (at least that i know of ;) Press releases make it much easier for the average IT journo (who actually knows very little about computing) to write a story about a given topic. If PHP needs more IT/main stream press coverage, this must be done. 'If.' The other point Sebastian makes (indirectly) is better still. I too write articles for IT magazines about PHP, as well as other projects I am involved in. Yes, although I think that what Sebastian mentioned is actually a PHP magazine. It is good to have PHP magazines, but for PHP to grow, it is also important to publish articles in magazines where PHP is usually not heard about. I think that if we can't address all the media with potential interest on PHP, we should focus on the media that has greater audience but usually does not mention PHP. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, Alexander Wagner wrote: Manuel Lemos wrote: There is no doubt about that, but the original poster was asking why PHP is not part of college curriculum and I was explaining that unlike other languages that are marketed by companies with big brands, there is no big brand behind PHP to push it at any comparable level. While I agree that better marketing would greatly benefit PHP, and might even get it into some universities, I don't think it is the main obstacle. IMHO PHP does not have much of a place in university. Languages like Haskell, Scheme and Gopher, have always been quite successful in university although there has rarely been anything useful done with them in the world outside and marketing behind them has always been near zero. Universities care a lot about concepts, or how to do it right. PHP's focus is on people who are new to programming and on do it right now. The latter, aka Worse is better, while being successful and important in the free world, is not very suitable for universities. Yes, I know that there are a lot of academics not only in Universities but also in RD departments of large companies (Telecoms mainly) that just have a guaranteed budget to research on subjects without proven utility. I just don't think that is with all universities or RD departments and even those have still people focused on the real world because they need to research and produce at least a small percentage of their work with value for the company or university. If they don't, they die killed by the concurrency that does that. PHP's design is not very clean, that never was the goal and it's probably better this way., because what PHP wanted to achieve it did achieve (I think). Yes, I agree, Java is conceptually nicer but in the real world PHP is more suitable for many types of applications because it lets people be more productive regardless the design is not very clean as you say. This is a true argument that PHP advocates need to be ready to throw wherever and whenever needed. If we don't, PHP looses opportunities, I think. I can't think of very much actual facts (as opposed to marketing) that would make universities interested in PHP. One of those I can think of is MetaL, btw. Yes, I assume that MetaL would appeal to academics because it is innovating while it did not yet have proven its utility in the real world, at least that most people are aware of. I don't have a problem to jump in MetaL presentations and tell that it was developed with more than 20.000 lines of pure PHP code and that if it was not written in PHP but in some other language like Java/C/C++ it would have taken much more time to develop because it makes extensive use of the easy way that PHP provides access to associative and dynamic arrays, making me much more productive in my RD on the subject. While it is true, I hope it also helps making a good impression of the PHP advantages. I think advocates should focus on PHP advantages that can be summarized in a few phrases of compeling arguments. To illustrate what I am say, althought it was not a language but a Open Source OS, Linux did not start taking much credit until Red Hat started distributing it and entered to NASDAQ. From then on, Red Had become a big brand (at least a noticeable one) and Linux was not necessarily the best free Unix like OS. Red Hat made it a big deal as we all know. Linux was successful in universities before it was successful outside. PHP is very successful outside, and I fear that conquering universities from where PHP is successful now is simply neither very probable nor, at the current state of PHP, very desirable. Developing PHP as a good technical solution is not sufficient to make as popular as needed. You need to know how to make a compeling argument that convinces the different types of audience that may be attracted to it. Academics, like every other group should be addressed with arguments that they value. Advocates should focus on the target audience, not just in PHP. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Alan Knowles wrote: Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. Now this is a great idea, IMHO. For those who don't know, I'm a freelancing journalist writing PHP-related articles for German magazine, including the upcoming ''PHP Magazin'', which'll be the first PHP-focused print publication in the world (at least that i know of ;) Press releases make it much easier for the average IT journo (who actually knows very little about computing) to write a story about a given topic. If PHP needs more IT/main stream press coverage, this must be done. 'If.' The other point Sebastian makes (indirectly) is better still. I too write articles for IT magazines about PHP, as well as other projects I am involved in. In all cases, I was approached by the editors -- but they didn't really know what they wanted. I think the best way for PHP to get good, thorough and accurate coverage in the mainstream IT press is for articulate and enthusiastic writers involved with PHP to independently contact magazine editors offering to write columns/how-tos/features/what ever about PHP on a freelance basis. Naturally, only a small proportion will be interested or able. But if you enjoy writing and need some pocket money, its well worth a try. Gavin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hi, In all cases, I was approached by the editors -- but they didn't really know what they wanted. I think the best way for PHP to get good, thorough and accurate coverage in the mainstream IT press is for articulate and enthusiastic writers involved with PHP to independently contact magazine editors offering to write columns/how-tos/features/what ever about PHP on a freelance basis. Naturally, only a small proportion will be interested or able. But if you enjoy writing and need some pocket money, its well worth a try. I couldn't agree more on the pr stuff here and if anyone would be interested in writing articles/pr's and news about php (and in relation to other languages), could they email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I am getting a group together to discuss evangelism issues, which will hopefully lead up to a presentation at FOSDEM discussing the way forward for PHP evang. Thanks, James -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Alan Knowles wrote: This kind of bytes at a nerve when you are hunting for work and almost nobody mentions PHP here Anyway, A quick few ideas to throw in the pot.. - Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. I'm would hope that there a few people out there who could help out on this.. Call for Volunteers... - Either writing 'IT Press Friendly' release announcements, or gathering IT Press contacts, and faxing + emailing + phone followup on releases... When Zend first started out we actually offered the other guys in the PHP Group to send out press releases on new versions from the group. We had a PR woman write the press-release and then sent it to the Group for fixing. If I remember correctly they felt that open source projects don't need press releases so it kind of came to a halt. I don't really share that feeling and think that even an open source project can get added exposure by press releases. I think if we can get enough press contacts (it probably shouldn't be too hard if a few people here know the right people) then it would definitely be a good thing. Press releases help because when IT people start seeing press releases all over it sinks in slowly. It shouldn't be too hard to have a couple of people taking care of this and having them send the press releases to php-dev for comments before they go out. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Manuel Lemos wrote: There is no doubt about that, but the original poster was asking why PHP is not part of college curriculum and I was explaining that unlike other languages that are marketed by companies with big brands, there is no big brand behind PHP to push it at any comparable level. While I agree that better marketing would greatly benefit PHP, and might even get it into some universities, I don't think it is the main obstacle. IMHO PHP does not have much of a place in university. Languages like Haskell, Scheme and Gopher, have always been quite successful in university although there has rarely been anything useful done with them in the world outside and marketing behind them has always been near zero. Universities care a lot about concepts, or how to do it right. PHP's focus is on people who are new to programming and on do it right now. The latter, aka Worse is better, while being successful and important in the free world, is not very suitable for universities. PHP's design is not very clean, that never was the goal and it's probably better this way., because what PHP wanted to achieve it did achieve (I think). I can't think of very much actual facts (as opposed to marketing) that would make universities interested in PHP. One of those I can think of is MetaL, btw. To illustrate what I am say, althought it was not a language but a Open Source OS, Linux did not start taking much credit until Red Hat started distributing it and entered to NASDAQ. From then on, Red Had become a big brand (at least a noticeable one) and Linux was not necessarily the best free Unix like OS. Red Hat made it a big deal as we all know. Linux was successful in universities before it was successful outside. PHP is very successful outside, and I fear that conquering universities from where PHP is successful now is simply neither very probable nor, at the current state of PHP, very desirable. regards Wagner -- Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, James Cox wrote: IMHO, that is there no marketing effort behind PHP, meaning there is no Microsoft nor Sun nor any strong brand behind PHP to advertise it. Microsoft make $xxx BILLION dollars a year SELLING their software. Sun make $xxx BILLION dollars a year SELLING their software. Both, by coincedence release free software, such as API's and SDK's. the PHP Group (and the PHP community) make $000 a year GIVING AWAY our software. There is no doubt about that, but the original poster was asking why PHP is not part of college curriculum and I was explaining that unlike other languages that are marketed by companies with big brands, there is no big brand behind PHP to push it at any comparable level. To illustrate what I am say, althought it was not a language but a Open Source OS, Linux did not start taking much credit until Red Hat started distributing it and entered to NASDAQ. From then on, Red Had become a big brand (at least a noticeable one) and Linux was not necessarily the best free Unix like OS. Red Hat made it a big deal as we all know. however, we get more usage than ASP/Microsoft servers, and Java only beats us because it has been around for longer. AFAIK there is no strong evidence that lets you conclude that. Anyway, that is not the point. Even if what you mentioned was an undeniable fact, PHP is not being marketed up to the same level as Java or the Microsoft languages. The fact that PHP is not more accepted in colleges and companies, I think it is at least part due to that. I note that sun don't promote java as they used to anymore... they don't particularly need too. Like Oracle. Sun did smart marketing through well organized advocacy that helps evangelizing the Java community angariating new members, but Sun did much more. They provide very high carrer value to Java developers not only by motivating companies to adopt Java because it brings value to their business but also by providing very high certification for anybody that wants demonstrate real qualification in the language. Today, good Java programmers are in average much more well paid than good PHP programmers. That is Sun manage to create such a great demand for Java programmers in companies that there are not enough qualified Java programmers to cover for the needs. That is a direct result of better marketing the language. Even in the Open Source world the PHP credit is relative. in ANY world these days, ANY computing credit is relative. There are so few universally agreed standards that certification becomes almost worthless, because it becomes harder to work out how good the person behind the paper really is (but alas, we all take the exams) I was not talking about that, but have you seen Java certification process? That is a very well thought and credible initiative, IMHO. For instance well known publishers on the field like O'Reilly don't seem to care much about publishing PHP books. I don't know why. O'Reilly seems to give more credit to Perl and Python than to PHP, but it is also true that such languages have well organized advocacy groups while there seems to be no organized advocacy for PHP at all. Erm,. O'Reilly and Perl have a long standing friendship, first of all. I hear Tim O'Reilly and Larry Wall are good friends. I don't think that is the reason. O'Reilly is a company, so they want to profit. If PHP community is so large, why would O'Reilly stop themselves from profiting much more by publishing PHP books? So far they only have published a book until today, and even that book is a reference book and not a book that teaches you how to program PHP. They have published 19 Perl books and 6 Python books agains 1 PHP book. Do they have anything against PHP? If Tim and Larry Wall are good friends, is Python author a greater friend of Tim than Rasmus? I don't think that is the reason. Maybe PHP needs to be better marketed before the eyes of O'Reilly. O'Reilly is big in colleges so it would provide greater exposure to PHP. There seems to be no reason to have at least as many PHP books from O'Reilly than they have of Python. Wrox publishes more PHP books than O'Reilly publishes of Python. There isn't certainly a lack of good PHP book writers. That said, O'Reilly have one book on the shelves (Rasmus' reference guide) and a further one i believe at post - edit stage. They also have my proposal under consideration for a further php book. (And ARE INTERESTED) There seems to be an O'Reilly PHP book in the horizon for March but it is not yours. Anyway, if they really publish it, feel free to send me a review copy so I can post a review in the PHP Classes site. Reviews are notified to more than 30.000 site subscribers. Although you told me that I just seem to put up suggestions and do not do anything else besides that, here you may see that is not quite right. I really don't make much money (if any at all) from reviewing the books, but I know that
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, James Cox wrote: So, the 64 million dollar question is... how would you propose for php.net as a group/community to help promote it (i would be interested in the specifics)? Read again my initial message in the thread. It's all in there. More can be done. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
This kind of bytes at a nerve when you are hunting for work and almost nobody mentions PHP here Anyway, A quick few ideas to throw in the pot.. - Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. I'm would hope that there a few people out there who could help out on this.. Call for Volunteers... - Either writing 'IT Press Friendly' release announcements, or gathering IT Press contacts, and faxing + emailing + phone followup on releases... anyway my 2c for today. regards alan -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, James Cox wrote: Manuel, in your original email you said you weren't being specific. please be specific on some real tangible targets that we could work on. I don't recall ever saying that I was not going to be specific. Actually I specified several ideas that I suggested. Please read again starting from the point that I mention the idea of making a PHP Open Source programming contest and advertise it in the media. Secondly, I feel this discussion is best kept on the php-dev list, since you asked the developers to do something about it. :) Sorry, I thought you were not keeping the discussion on php.dev only deliberately. Actually, the thread is also to answer the original poster about why PHP is not acknowledged in colleges and what he or other users and developers can do about it. Feel free to also crosspost to php-general if you agree that this is a discussion not pertaining just to PHP developers. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Alan Knowles wrote: Press releases, for PHP5 pre-alpha, PHP-GTK's, (Derick - srm?) upcomming release etc. which could be made available - Then a PHP press team??, could be resposnible for getting it out to the Press in their local countries.. Now this is a great idea, IMHO. For those who don't know, I'm a freelancing journalist writing PHP-related articles for German magazine, including the upcoming ''PHP Magazin'', which'll be the first PHP-focused print publication in the world (at least that i know of ;) We should really increase PHP's presence in the press / media. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Hello, Francesco Gallarotti wrote: I am a student in a college in NY state. Here we have several servers and dozens of courses on computer science. No server is PHP ready and no course instructor knows anything about PHP. Why do you think this is happening? I really like PHP and I am using it in my personal website to work with some text files and a small database. Why PHP is so not popular in the computer science teaching area? IMHO, that is there no marketing effort behind PHP, meaning there is no Microsoft nor Sun nor any strong brand behind PHP to advertise it. Even in the Open Source world the PHP credit is relative. For instance well known publishers on the field like O'Reilly don't seem to care much about publishing PHP books. I don't know why. O'Reilly seems to give more credit to Perl and Python than to PHP, but it is also true that such languages have well organized advocacy groups while there seems to be no organized advocacy for PHP at all. Also PHP is only known to be adequate for Web programming niche market although it can be used as a general purpose programming language. Since Computer Science courses are for much more than Web programming, colleges do not see PHP as a good bet for the future of their students. Unfortunately, in this world when somebody does not know about something, what is important is not what that is but what seems to be. So humans seem to give more credit to something that appears often in many places than something that appears not very much in only one place. PHP popularity seems to be limited to what it is advertised for which isn't much as I mentioned above. So, if you care about PHP credit and consequent success in the Computer Science world, what shall you do about it? Well, as an individual you may not be able to do much. But I think there is plenty of things that can be done to better market PHP so it gets the necessary recognition to appear in Computer Science curriculum. In the past I made several suggestions to PHP developers in order to improve PHP recognition not only in colleges but also in companies that are not aware of the capabilities of PHP. If companies are not made aware of PHP capabilities, that reduces the chances of employment of people like everybody here that would like to keep working on PHP and you may be forced by the circumstances to work with other more accepted languages in the labour market. Unfortunately, my suggestions were not considered seriously, meaning either people present then either not agree with the suugestions or simply nothing seems to have been done in that direction. I don't want to bring back the discussion of the merits of the suggestions, but rather to remind them for people that were not present or not paying attention to consider them and maybe who knows does something about it. So what I suggested was something more os less like this: - Promote contests of PHP applications or components. The Python community does this and it seems to be getting the attention of the computing media. This leads to an obvious greater exposure of the language to the computing community that does not know it while it promotes the development of more and better applications and components. - Promote a banner exchange/Web ring between all sites that promote PHP related materials: articles, components, applications, etc.. This would give a greater sense of the wide support that users that adhere to PHP may find. Somebody objected because it would be hard to tell which sites provide a reasonable level of quality. I think this could be sorted by providing a way for users to vote on each of the sites. The results of the votes would be shown in the banners to advise about their quality. - Seek deals with offline and online computing specialized media to assure that PHP gets exposure in the exchange for banner advertisement. People that are not aware of PHP often learn from those media. PHP exposure could be a space for letting qualified writers write articles that would let readers of those media be aware of PHP capabilities especially for the people that are not aware of PHP credits because those are the most important people that PHP marketing should target because you may find many decision makers among them. Decision makers often decide whether tecnologies should or not be used in companies or included in college curriculum. I have more ideias but this is just to illustrate how PHP can be marketed without necessarily spending money on the efforts. Of course my ideias are not the only ones that would work and not necessarily the best. Anybody can bring more ideias but what is really important is that something gets done. I am crossposting this to php-dev because I think that the most important people that can do something about this are there. If you don't agree that this topic makes sense in that list, just don't follow-up in there. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To
RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Computer Science and PHP
Manuel, I have replied inline with a few comments that kind of reply in some way to what you said: IMHO, that is there no marketing effort behind PHP, meaning there is no Microsoft nor Sun nor any strong brand behind PHP to advertise it. Microsoft make $xxx BILLION dollars a year SELLING their software. Sun make $xxx BILLION dollars a year SELLING their software. Both, by coincedence release free software, such as API's and SDK's. the PHP Group (and the PHP community) make $000 a year GIVING AWAY our software. however, we get more usage than ASP/Microsoft servers, and Java only beats us because it has been around for longer. I note that sun don't promote java as they used to anymore... they don't particularly need too. Like Oracle. Even in the Open Source world the PHP credit is relative. in ANY world these days, ANY computing credit is relative. There are so few universally agreed standards that certification becomes almost worthless, because it becomes harder to work out how good the person behind the paper really is (but alas, we all take the exams) For instance well known publishers on the field like O'Reilly don't seem to care much about publishing PHP books. I don't know why. O'Reilly seems to give more credit to Perl and Python than to PHP, but it is also true that such languages have well organized advocacy groups while there seems to be no organized advocacy for PHP at all. Erm,. O'Reilly and Perl have a long standing friendship, first of all. I hear Tim O'Reilly and Larry Wall are good friends. That said, O'Reilly have one book on the shelves (Rasmus' reference guide) and a further one i believe at post - edit stage. They also have my proposal under consideration for a further php book. (And ARE INTERESTED) Also PHP is only known to be adequate for Web programming niche market although it can be used as a general purpose programming language. Since Computer Science courses are for much more than Web programming, colleges do not see PHP as a good bet for the future of their students. ERM, PHP is now a leading programming language for several major sites. sourceforge.net, freshmeat.net, www.alltheweb.com , livebid.amazon.com, www.knowone.de , audiogalaxy.com are just some which manage huge hits. Also, PHP as a CLI is coming into it's own, but obviously when PHP was first imagined, the CLI approach would have been a distant dream. Unfortunately, in this world when somebody does not know about something, what is important is not what that is but what seems to be. So humans seem to give more credit to something that appears often in many places than something that appears not very much in only one place. PHP popularity seems to be limited to what it is advertised for which isn't much as I mentioned above. www.php.net/usage.php www.php.net/usage.php www.php.net/usage.php Q E D. So, if you care about PHP credit and consequent success in the Computer Science world, what shall you do about it? Well, as an individual you may not be able to do much. But I think there is plenty of things that can be done to better market PHP so it gets the necessary recognition to appear in Computer Science curriculum. Wear PHP.net T Shirts. Give out mousemats. Or just simply make a good quality php web application in which people visit. That way you'll soon find people asking how you did it, and they'll start using php too. Open Source doesn't need huge advertising dollars spent on it. It just has to be damn good and withstand the scrutiny of our peers. In the past I made several suggestions to PHP developers in order to improve PHP recognition not only in colleges but also in companies that are not aware of the capabilities of PHP. If companies are not made aware of PHP capabilities, that reduces the chances of employment of people like everybody here that would like to keep working on PHP and you may be forced by the circumstances to work with other more accepted languages in the labour market. REAL Job advertisement: PHP Developer Fast growing company specialised in Internet is urgently looking for an experienced PHP Developer to join young, multinational team. Knowledge of other programming languages fe Java, Oracle, would be an advantage but the most important thing is that you have good knowledge and experience in PHP development. Fluent German speaking is essential. Type: Permanent Location: Frankfurt, Germany Start: ASAP Posted: 16/01/2002 18:42:20 Reference: JS/3780/SAB or see http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/searchresults.asp?jobType=*d=5order=Ra nkpage=1q=php To have over 100 jobs in this difficult market place in the UK right now for php developers can only show the need for php in the market place today. - Promote contests of PHP applications or components. The Python community does this and it seems to be getting the attention of the computing media. This leads to an obvious greater exposure of the language to the computing community
