Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[PHP development @echospace]

 
...with pretty much every modem user already having bzip2... C'mon, you gotta download 
kernel sources too, and those are in bz2 for modem users...
-2c-
Vlad




- Original Message -
From: emile@UNKNOWN
To: 
Sent: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:04:11 +0100
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

Wolfgang Drews wrote:

> delivering .tar.gz, but in addition offer this .bz2 thing. So
> why not, if at least those modem-users would benefit of it?

Could benefit, not would benefit. They'd need to download and install
bzip2
first.

Emile

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Finally! Real applications on the web!
Free email, contacts, and file storage.
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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Zeev Suraski]

Guys, I didn't put any words in Emile's mouth.  I know he didn't suggest 
stopping to distribute .gz files.  I was just describing the full 'logical 
path' to why I don't think that using bzip2 is a very hot 
idea.  Essentially I was saying (a) We can't give up .gz/.zip  (b) .bz2 
isn't all that much better to warrant a side-by-side situation and 
cluttering the download page (c) -> no real need to mess with bz2

You may disagree about (b)/(c), as I said, it's just my opinion.

Zeev

At 10:57 20/2/2001, Wolfgang Drews wrote:
> > >I have it on the BSDs and Solaris too.
> >
> > But most people don't.  It doesn't come in as a standard in most
> > operating
> > systems.
>
>ok, point for you Zeev, but Emile did not say, you should stop
>delivering .tar.gz, but in addition offer this .bz2 thing. So
>why not, if at least those modem-users would benefit of it? (that
>is at least, how i understood Emile). It is not a real cool solution
>for the problem, but its a workaround which is better than nothing.
>
>just my two ...
>
>regards,
>
>-Wolfgang
>
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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Wolfgang Drews]

> > delivering .tar.gz, but in addition offer this .bz2 thing. So
> > why not, if at least those modem-users would benefit of it?
> 
> Could benefit, not would benefit. They'd need to download and install
> bzip2 first.

yes, sorry for this one (my english is especially on tuesday mornings
very confusing ;-)). At least i guess Zeev got the point how i and "maybe"
you see this one. 

regards,

-Wolfgang

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Emiliano]

Wolfgang Drews wrote:

> delivering .tar.gz, but in addition offer this .bz2 thing. So
> why not, if at least those modem-users would benefit of it?

Could benefit, not would benefit. They'd need to download and install
bzip2
first.

Emile

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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Wolfgang Drews]

> >I have it on the BSDs and Solaris too.
>
> But most people don't.  It doesn't come in as a standard in most
> operating
> systems.

ok, point for you Zeev, but Emile did not say, you should stop
delivering .tar.gz, but in addition offer this .bz2 thing. So
why not, if at least those modem-users would benefit of it? (that
is at least, how i understood Emile). It is not a real cool solution
for the problem, but its a workaround which is better than nothing.

just my two ...

regards,

-Wolfgang

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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Chris Newbill]

I'm not sure what all has been suggested, so sorry if this has been already.

Why not just make a simple form and avoid clutter completely? (ie all the
links)

Could allow them to choose source/binary, os, PHP version, compression
format, etc.

Chris Newbill

Zeev Suraski wrote:

> About bzip2 - my personal opinion is that we should probably not bother
> with it.  It's slower and it's much less standard (there's a world beyond
> Linux, remember).
>
> We definitely can't give up our .tar.gz/.zip distros,
> because these are the standard ways of distributing apps on the net and
> people would expect them.
>
> Given that, I don't think that adding .bz2 is
> going to be much more helpful than cluttering the download page...  That's
> just my opinion though.


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Zeev Suraski]

At 07:51 20/2/2001, Emiliano wrote:
>Zeev Suraski wrote:
>
> > About bzip2 - my personal opinion is that we should probably not bother
> > with it.  It's slower and it's much less standard (there's a world beyond
> > Linux, remember).
>
>I have it on the BSDs and Solaris too.

But most people don't.  It doesn't come in as a standard in most operating 
systems.

Zeev


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Emiliano]

Zeev Suraski wrote:

> About bzip2 - my personal opinion is that we should probably not bother
> with it.  It's slower and it's much less standard (there's a world beyond
> Linux, remember).

I have it on the BSDs and Solaris too.

> We definitely can't give up our .tar.gz/.zip distros,
> because these are the standard ways of distributing apps on the net and
> people would expect them.

I wouldn't suggest that php.net stops handing out those.

> Given that, I don't think that adding .bz2 is
> going to be much more helpful than cluttering the download page...  That's
> just my opinion though.

I'd think that the people with modems would appreciate the size decrease
enough to deal with the one-time hassle of installing bzip2. It's no
big thing to me, I'm on cable. Anyhow, maybe with the taylored setup
thing that was discussed earlier?

Emile

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[André Langhorst]

> I want to fix chunked output buffering for 4.0.5 (it doesn't work right 
> at all in 4.0.4).  I think it'll take me about 10 days (I'll probably 
> not have time to work on it this week).

glad to hear this, I think this is *definitely* worth waiting... :)

andré


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Zeev Suraski]

I want to fix chunked output buffering for 4.0.5 (it doesn't work right at 
all in 4.0.4).  I think it'll take me about 10 days (I'll probably not have 
time to work on it this week).

About bzip2 - my personal opinion is that we should probably not bother 
with it.  It's slower and it's much less standard (there's a world beyond 
Linux, remember).  We definitely can't give up our .tar.gz/.zip distros, 
because these are the standard ways of distributing apps on the net and 
people would expect them.  Given that, I don't think that adding .bz2 is 
going to be much more helpful than cluttering the download page...  That's 
just my opinion though.

Zeev 


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Andi Gutmans]

At 09:31 AM 2/19/2001 +0100, Sascha Schumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
>
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
>
> Let me know your thoughts.

Our Launchpad (QA) guys have a few fixes to go into the CVS. I think it 
will be done by the end of the week.
So I think March 1st sounds OK for branching off RC1.

Andi


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[André Langhorst]

> I would welcome the win32 distributions packed with bzip2 
> as well. This algorithm is superior to anything else I know 
> (well, at least in compression ratio), and is available to 
> win32 users as well. Not only as a commandline tool, but as 
> a plugin for the very popular wincmd32 too. Anything bzipped 
> is about half the size of that thing zipped.

do not forget that manual downloads, bzip2'ing could help there too

andré

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Emiliano]

"Hellekin O. Wolf" wrote:
> 
> Can we propose extensions outside of the main distribution ?
> 
> I like the idea of downloading what you want.
> 
> Through a form, you would chose the extensions you need, then submit and
> receive a custom GZIP or BZ2 file.
> It sounds doable. Any constraint, dependency to work out ? Yes, the m4
> stuff... Can we open a thread on that specific topic of a PHP-downloader ?
> 
> *
> 
> Regarding midgard, although it is considered beta, I'm for including it
> into the main distrib for RC1, so that people can test it and eventually
> the midgard team can release a final version before 4.0.5 ships.

Yes. We're gearing up for final beta (or RC, would be another term for
it)
end of this week.

Emile

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Andrei Zmievski]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Peter [DiSAStA] Petermann wrote:
> > what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
> > We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> > are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> > correctly or to compile at all.
> mh..
> what about php-gtk? 
> is it going to be included in release?
> im not sure if this is ok?

I'd rather keep php-gtk extension separate so it can have its own
release schedule instead of tying into PHP's one. And for some other
reasons.

-Andrei
* Gun manufacturers don't make bad products, bad parents do. *

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Andrei Zmievski]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Sascha Schumann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
> 
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
> 
> Let me know your thoughts.

I suggested 4.0.5 release a week ago, but haven't heard a peep from
anyone..

-Andrei
* Only 19,999 lines of C++ to my next ski trip... *

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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Hellekin O. Wolf]

Can we propose extensions outside of the main distribution ?

I like the idea of downloading what you want.

Through a form, you would chose the extensions you need, then submit and 
receive a custom GZIP or BZ2 file.
It sounds doable. Any constraint, dependency to work out ? Yes, the m4 
stuff... Can we open a thread on that specific topic of a PHP-downloader ?

*

Regarding midgard, although it is considered beta, I'm for including it 
into the main distrib for RC1, so that people can test it and eventually 
the midgard team can release a final version before 4.0.5 ships.

hellekin


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RE: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[James Moore]

> Hum, having just contributed to said download size... we've done our
> best to
> minimize the KLOC, removing some cruft and moving a couple of functions
> into
> a (separate) library, but we'd be down to stripping comments to go
> further...
> the only other thing I could suggest is using bzip2 instead of gzip:

At the moment I would personally advocate adding a EXPERIMENTAL file to
midgard firstly because the midgard team themselves state that its still
Beta and also if it is moved from main CVS at some point to PEAR etc then it
would probably be best not to distribute it with PHP at any point. I also
feel due to the amount of changes that have been made to midgard CVS in past
few days/weeks it doesnt to me seem stable enough or tested enough (at least
this beta version) to distribute with a release. Lets give it a bit of time
in CVS before we distribute it with PHP Releases.

James


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Cynic]

At 15:05 19.2. 2001, Derick Rethans wrote the following:
-- 
>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Cynic wrote:
>
>> I would welcome the win32 distributions packed with bzip2
>> as well. This algorithm is superior to anything else I know
>> (well, at least in compression ratio), and is available to
>> win32 users as well. Not only as a commandline tool, but as
>> a plugin for the very popular wincmd32 too. Anything bzipped
>> is about half the size of that thing zipped.
>
>It's only that the most users se WinZip, which does not support it.
>
>Derick Rethans

"If you want to save some bandwidth, here's the distro in a 
bzipped archive. bzip2 plugin for Windows Commander is 
available for free at www.ghisler.com."

I believe that a bzip verion of the large win32 distro would 
be somewhere about 2.3MB. That's quite nice, compared to 
3.6MB of the zip file.



Cynic:

A member of a group of ancient Greek philosophers who taught
that virtue constitutes happiness and that self control is
the essential part of virtue.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Sergey Kartashoff]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Derick Rethans wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Sascha Schumann wrote:
>
> > what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
> >
> > Let me know your thoughts.
>
> Sounds like a good idea, but I would like to fix the bugs in the mcrypt
> extension before this release. What about making March 1, 2001 making the
> day for RC 1?

I need some time too (one or two weeks) to finish mnoGoSearch extension
to support all of features of mnoGoSearch - 3.1.10.

It seems to me that March 1 is the resonable date for RC1 8)

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Derick Rethans]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Hartmut Holzgraefe wrote:
>
> we had a related idea to not include extensions considered experimental
> like ext/zziplib that marked by an EXPERIMENTAL file in their ext dir

I'm not a supporter of this, the Sablotron is marked EXPERIMENTAL, but it
should definitely be in the distro. Maybe we should decide on PHP-DEV /
PHP-QA what will be included in the distro?

Derick Rethans

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Hartmut Holzgraefe]

Cameron wrote:
> Phil Driscoll wrote:
> > There has been talk on here, or maybe on the QA list about a web page where
> > you tick the items you want, and just download the necessary components.
> that is pretty simple, make the client who is compiling the source do a
> ./buildconf first. if noone is working on this i am willing to offer to help
> but for something like this i would prefer 2 or 3 coders doing it . . .

we had a related idea to not include extensions considered experimental
like ext/zziplib that marked by an EXPERIMENTAL file in their ext dir

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Besuchen Sie uns auf der CeBIT 2001 - in Halle 6 Stand F62/4

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Cameron]

Phil Driscoll wrote:

> >any other suggestions?
> There has been talk on here, or maybe on the QA list about a web page where
> you tick the items you want, and just download the necessary components.
> Maybe this was just in the context of PEAR - I can't remember. Anyway, is
> anyone working on this? It seems to be a good solution to me (but then I
> don't understand how the config and .m4 stuff works!).

that is pretty simple, make the client who is compiling the source do a
./buildconf first. if noone is working on this i am willing to offer to help
but for something like this i would prefer 2 or 3 coders doing it . . .


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Derick Rethans]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Cynic wrote:

> I would welcome the win32 distributions packed with bzip2
> as well. This algorithm is superior to anything else I know
> (well, at least in compression ratio), and is available to
> win32 users as well. Not only as a commandline tool, but as
> a plugin for the very popular wincmd32 too. Anything bzipped
> is about half the size of that thing zipped.

It's only that the most users se WinZip, which does not support it.

Derick Rethans

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Phil Driscoll]

>any other suggestions?
There has been talk on here, or maybe on the QA list about a web page where
you tick the items you want, and just download the necessary components.
Maybe this was just in the context of PEAR - I can't remember. Anyway, is
anyone working on this? It seems to be a good solution to me (but then I
don't understand how the config and .m4 stuff works!).

Cheers
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Derick Rethans]

Cameron wrote:
>
> since sending this email i have been thinking a lot about it. bzip2 is fine for
> many sys admins but we have the problem of the redhat users (dont take this the
> wrong way please) that have used no other distributions and have only ever
> installed an rpm before, for these users bzip2 would get confusing. im more

Then new RPM system uses bzip2 afaik, and it isn't that different from
tar.gz of course. I really don't see the problem here.

Derick Rethans

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Cynic]

I would welcome the win32 distributions packed with bzip2 
as well. This algorithm is superior to anything else I know 
(well, at least in compression ratio), and is available to 
win32 users as well. Not only as a commandline tool, but as 
a plugin for the very popular wincmd32 too. Anything bzipped 
is about half the size of that thing zipped.


At 13:49 19.2. 2001, Emiliano wrote the following:
-- 
>Cameron wrote:
>> 
>> since sending this email i have been thinking a lot about it. bzip2 is fine for
>> many sys admins but we have the problem of the redhat users (dont take this the
>> wrong way please) that have used no other distributions and have only ever
>> installed an rpm before, for these users bzip2 would get confusing. im more
>> inclined to have multiple distribution's, a standard user one which would be
>> base+mysql+mcrypt+zlib and not much more, an oracle one etc. the only problem is
>> working out what modules people are mostly using. *grin*
>
>Ah, that should not be too hard. In fact, RedHat does ship PHP in this
>way I think.
>
>> any other suggestions?
>
>So, about stripping those somments ...
>
>Seriously, we could offer the .tar.bz alongside the others. Those that
>do have bzip2
>will benefit.
>
>Emile
>
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Cynic:

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that virtue constitutes happiness and that self control is
the essential part of virtue.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Emiliano]

Cameron wrote:
> 
> since sending this email i have been thinking a lot about it. bzip2 is fine for
> many sys admins but we have the problem of the redhat users (dont take this the
> wrong way please) that have used no other distributions and have only ever
> installed an rpm before, for these users bzip2 would get confusing. im more
> inclined to have multiple distribution's, a standard user one which would be
> base+mysql+mcrypt+zlib and not much more, an oracle one etc. the only problem is
> working out what modules people are mostly using. *grin*

Ah, that should not be too hard. In fact, RedHat does ship PHP in this
way I think.

> any other suggestions?

So, about stripping those somments ...

Seriously, we could offer the .tar.bz alongside the others. Those that
do have bzip2
will benefit.

Emile

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Cameron]

since sending this email i have been thinking a lot about it. bzip2 is fine for
many sys admins but we have the problem of the redhat users (dont take this the
wrong way please) that have used no other distributions and have only ever
installed an rpm before, for these users bzip2 would get confusing. im more
inclined to have multiple distribution's, a standard user one which would be
base+mysql+mcrypt+zlib and not much more, an oracle one etc. the only problem is
working out what modules people are mostly using. *grin*

any other suggestions?

Emiliano wrote:

> Cameron wrote:
> >
> > i'll agree its about due for release, can we do SOMETHING about the download
> > size tho? i dont really have any ideas on decent ways to shrink it but it
> > seems to be bloating to me. could do with the mcrypt fix's and zeev's output
> > buffer fix 1st tho . . .
>
> Hum, having just contributed to said download size... we've done our
> best to
> minimize the KLOC, removing some cruft and moving a couple of functions
> into
> a (separate) library, but we'd be down to stripping comments to go
> further...
> the only other thing I could suggest is using bzip2 instead of gzip:
>
> -rw-r--r--1 emileemile 1952068 Feb 19 10:53
> php-4.0.4pl1.tar.bz
> -rw-r--r--1 emileemile 2439189 Feb 19 10:52
> php-4.0.4pl1.tar.gz
>
> which is a 20% size reduction without changing anything else.
>
> Emile
>
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Emiliano]

Cameron wrote:
> 
> i'll agree its about due for release, can we do SOMETHING about the download
> size tho? i dont really have any ideas on decent ways to shrink it but it
> seems to be bloating to me. could do with the mcrypt fix's and zeev's output
> buffer fix 1st tho . . .

Hum, having just contributed to said download size... we've done our
best to
minimize the KLOC, removing some cruft and moving a couple of functions
into
a (separate) library, but we'd be down to stripping comments to go
further...
the only other thing I could suggest is using bzip2 instead of gzip:

-rw-r--r--1 emileemile 1952068 Feb 19 10:53
php-4.0.4pl1.tar.bz
-rw-r--r--1 emileemile 2439189 Feb 19 10:52
php-4.0.4pl1.tar.gz

which is a 20% size reduction without changing anything else.

Emile

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Cameron]

i'll agree its about due for release, can we do SOMETHING about the download
size tho? i dont really have any ideas on decent ways to shrink it but it
seems to be bloating to me. could do with the mcrypt fix's and zeev's output
buffer fix 1st tho . . .


Cameron Brunner

Sascha Schumann wrote:

> Hi,
>
> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
>
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
>
> Let me know your thoughts.
>
> - Sascha
>
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Thies C. Arntzen]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 09:31:01AM +0100, Sascha Schumann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
> 
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
> 
> Let me know your thoughts.

anytime - 

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Peter \"[DiSAStA]\" Petermann]

> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
mh..
what about php-gtk? 
is it going to be included in release?
im not sure if this is ok?
Peter Petermann



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Re: [PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Derick Rethans]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Sascha Schumann wrote:

> what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?
>
> We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
> are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
> correctly or to compile at all.
>
> Let me know your thoughts.

Sounds like a good idea, but I would like to fix the bugs in the mcrypt
extension before this release. What about making March 1, 2001 making the
day for RC 1?

Derick Rethans

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[PHP-DEV] Time for 4.0.5?

[Sascha Schumann]

Hi,

what do people think about a PHP 4.0.5 release?

We have about 70 change entries in NEWS.  Some of the changes
are fundamentally needed for some extensions to work
correctly or to compile at all.

Let me know your thoughts.

- Sascha


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