Re: [PSF-Community] board candidates: tell me about transparency

[Matthew Dixon Cowles]

Please correct me if I get any quoting below wrong, it seems to have
come through a bit confused.

[Steve Holden]
> For Heaven's sake. We elect a board to look after these issues. You
> can't expect to second-guess every deliberation. If you want to do
> that, stand for the board.

[Karl Karsten]
> I have no idea what the individual board members think. Even when
> there is a unanimous vote, I still don't know why they voted that
> way.

I too think it's legitimate for members to want to know not just the
"what" but also the "why".

[Steve Holden]
> Because that's what they thought would be in the Foundation's best
> interests.

The PSF is a pretty big organization now. (Though I don't seem to be
able to find a recent budget to see just how big. Is that a fault in
my searching?)

I think that members could have an interest in something more than
belief in good intentions. The same good intentions can lead
different people to different conclusions.

I bet even Perl programmers have good intentions!

Regards,
Matt

___
PSF-Community mailing list
PSF-Community@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community

Re: [PSF-Community] PSF working groups - how to become a member

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 29.05.2016 18:38, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
> Is there a reason why this https://www.python.org/psf/committees/ &
> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups exists?
> This page https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups is more
> welcoming to newbies who don't understand how things work.

Only historical reasons. Up until a few months ago, the PSF wiki
was only accessible to PSF members, so the second link was not
public. We subsequently changed the default on the
PSF wiki to readable by everyone (see attached email).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Python Software Foundation
http://www.python.org/psf/
http://www.malemburg.com/
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Members,

I have now implemented the changes listed below. If you find pages
which should not be open to the general public or ones which should
be, please let me know.

Many PSF wiki pages will now be word readable and editable by
all PSF members with an account. As per the resolution, only
PSF voting members will get an account (it's easy to become voting
member though; see
http://pyfound.blogspot.de/2015/02/enroll-as-psf-voting-member.html).

Please see the front page for additional details:

https://wiki.python.org/psf/FrontPage

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
Python Software Foundation
http://www.python.org/psf/


On 12.08.2015 18:31, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> On 12.08.2015 17:57, Steve Holden wrote:
>> Hi Marc-André,
>>
>>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 3:25 PM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>>
>>> The board voted on this some weeks ago and I have now found
>>> some time to go through the various pages on the wiki to
>>> check which pages need to stay closed and which to open up
>>> for reading to everyone.
>>>
>>> Since most of the information on the PSF wiki is not confidential
>>> in any way, my idea is to make "readable for everyone" the default
>>> and only protect those few pages which need more confidentiality.
>>>
>>> I need some help with identifying the pages which should continue
>>> to be protected.
>>>
>>> So far I have identified these:
>>>
>>> Board only access (BoardGroup access):
>>>
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/contact
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Action%20Items
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/pending
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/psf-community-awards
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/frank-willison-award
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/distinguished-server-award
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/minutes
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/templates
>>>
>>> Members only access (MembersGroup access):
>>>
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Secretary
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/welcome
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board/budget-plans
>>> + board draft proposals: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Board#draft-proposals 
>>> 
>>
>> The above is simply a fragment of the Board page, whose heading makes it 
>> appear that it is intended for Board members only. Many of the following 
>> links are also fragments, and obviously you can only protect whole pages.
> 
> With the fragments I'm pointing to sections of pages. All
> pages linked in those sections will be added to the respective
> groups.
> 
>>> + members meeting pages: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id2
> 
> E.g. the above means: add all these pages to the MembersGroup ...
> 
> Members Meeting Agenda July 2014
> Members Meeting Agenda March 2013
> Members Meeting Agenda July 2012
> Members Meeting Agenda March 2012
> Members Meeting Agenda June 2011
> Members Meeting Agenda March 2011
> Members Meeting Agenda July 2010
> Members Meeting Voting Procedure
> Membership Map March 2013
> Members Meeting Agenda Template
> 
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/PSFInternalFAQ
>>> + staffing pages: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id6
>>> + member nominations: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id9
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/TrademarksCommittee
>>> + old planning pages: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id11
>>> + IP pages: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id15
>>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Streaming%20PSF%20Members%20meetings (has 
>>> passwords)
>>> + admin pages: https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#id18
>>>
>>> All other pages would be world-readable.
>>>
>>> Please let me know of any other pages which should go under one of
>>> the above groups.
>>>
>>> I plan to flip the switch later this week or on the weekend.
___
PSF-Board mailing list
psf-bo...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-board
--- End Message ---
___
PSF-Community mailing list
PSF-Community@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community

[PSF-Community] board candidates: tell me about transparency

[Carl Karsten]

"The psf-board-public mailing list, which is used for board discussions
which are not legally or otherwise sensitive, allowing them to be shared
with the wider PSF membership."
- https://wiki.python.org/psf/Info%20for%20new%20PSF%20members

That does not seem accurate, and I consider it a problem.

The only traffic this list gets is Diana's post of the meeting minutes
(Thank you Diana) with these exceptions I found:

1 post form a board member, no reply.  Not sure that qualifies as a
discussion.
https://mail.python.org/mailman/private/psf-board-public/2015-October/001110.html

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 7:22 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> IMO, Van's version is ... (follow the link if you want to know the rest)
https://mail.python.org/mailman/private/psf-board-public/2015-August/thread.html

This shows me that MAL is taking an active role in shaping the results.   I
may not really agree with his position, but I know what it is, and if I
strongly disagreed I would like to think someone would want to hear about
it.  And or if I disagree with enough of his ideas, maybe I won't vote for
him.

May June and July have a little activity too:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/private/psf-board-public/2015-July/thread.html

It looks like most of the traffic is from non board members.

Is this why the board stopped using it for board discussions?

Why are non board members allowed to post to the board list?


Steve,

I am trying to elect board members and want to know how they feel about
something I care about.  If you want to have a discussion, start a new
thread.



On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Carl Karsten 
wrote:
>>
>> > I also used to wonder what was being discussed behind closed doors.
>>
>> We shouldn't have to wonder. If it really is that boring, fine, but it
should be up to me to decide how I spend my time.
>>
>> The posted minutes are just a summary and results of the discussions and
votes.  They don't tell me what was seen as pros and cons and how they were
weighted.
>>
> For Heaven's sake. We elect a board to look after these issues. You can't
expect to second-guess every deliberation. If you want to do that, stand
for the board.
>
>> I have no idea what the individual board members think. Even when there
is a unanimous vote, I still don't know why they voted that way.
>>
> Because that's what they thought would be in the Foundation's best
interests.
>
> [...]
>
> Steve Holden




--
Carl K
___
PSF-Community mailing list
PSF-Community@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community

Re: [PSF-Community] PSF working groups - how to become a member

[Jacqueline Kazil]

/me tries to gently close the can of worms and realizes it is too late.
Worms are everywhere.

What is the difference between?
https://www.python.org/ 
&
https://wiki.python.org/
^^ should one set of pages be redirected?




On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Naomi Ceder  wrote:

> Well, first... the education WG charter should state what the membership
> criteria are. As I recall from talking to Carrie Ann, they welcome all.
>
> Second, synchronizing content (and making it user friendly) is a continual
> challenge. Definitely this is an area that needs some love.
>
> On 29 May 2016 at 09:38, Jacqueline Kazil  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I asked this is because I am in the educational summit,
>> and the speaker encouraged folks to join the working group.
>> I was looking at this link: https://www.python.org/psf/committees/,
>> which makes it a little more confusing.
>> It seems like this page
>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups & the links off
>> of that page seem to explain more.
>>
>> Is there a reason why this https://www.python.org/psf/committees/ &
>> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups exists?
>> This page https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups is
>> more welcoming to newbies who don't understand how things work.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Naomi Ceder 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In the case of the Grants WG, I believe that the charter says members
>>> are appointed/approved by the board.
>>>
>>> On 29 May 2016 at 09:29, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>>
 On 29.05.2016 18:23, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
 > How does someone become a member of a working group?
 > (I can't find this information on the website.)

 I don't think there's a general purpose answer for this,
 except maybe: ask the chair(s) of the WGs ...

 https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups

 --
 Marc-Andre Lemburg
 Director
 Python Software Foundation
 http://www.python.org/psf/
 http://www.malemburg.com/
 ___
 PSF-Community mailing list
 PSF-Community@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Naomi Ceder
>>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/111396744045017339164/about
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Naomi Ceder
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/111396744045017339164/about
>



-- 
Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil
___
PSF-Community mailing list
PSF-Community@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community

Re: [PSF-Community] PSF working groups - how to become a member

[Naomi Ceder]

In the case of the Grants WG, I believe that the charter says members are
appointed/approved by the board.

On 29 May 2016 at 09:29, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 29.05.2016 18:23, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
> > How does someone become a member of a working group?
> > (I can't find this information on the website.)
>
> I don't think there's a general purpose answer for this,
> except maybe: ask the chair(s) of the WGs ...
>
> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Contents#psf-working-groups
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Director
> Python Software Foundation
> http://www.python.org/psf/
> http://www.malemburg.com/
> ___
> PSF-Community mailing list
> PSF-Community@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community
>



-- 
Naomi Ceder
https://plus.google.com/u/0/111396744045017339164/about
___
PSF-Community mailing list
PSF-Community@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community