Re: [fileapi] Pull Request on GitHub
On August 16, 2016 at 6:31:31 PM, Zhen Zhang (izgz...@gmail.com) wrote: > Hi, > > I have a PR on GitHub regarding some issues of wording in current File API > spec: https://github.com/w3c/FileAPI/pull/42 > , but nobody ever responded me there. > I wonder if I should discuss the patch somewhere else? It seems that no one has touched that API for about 8 months. Marijn, are you still editing that document? I guess Jonas won't be, but not sure about Arun.
Re: Quick update on WebIDL "Level 1"
> On 11 Jul 2016, at 10:45 PM, Yves Lafonwrote: > > The goal of publishing this as a REC is not to have a final document nor to > please only > the lawyers. The goal is to provide a document that contains the parts of the > WebIDL > syntax that are implemented, and the associated implemented ES-binding, as a > guide > for spec authors that are not following the main WebIDL spec evolutions (as > not everybody > has your knowledge of what is or is not usable in WebIDL). Yes, but that's precisely the point. If something is not interoperable in the spec, then it should be fixed. Now we are back at Domenic's email. No spec editors should be, or will be, referencing v1. It's simple pointless to think otherwise. Look, all browser vendors already implement promise-using WebIDL-based APIs, which means that they've already had to implement v2 features. I think a large segment of the WG has made it pretty clear that's it harmful to pretend that WebIDL 1 has any value to anyone but patent lawyers. Technically, it's just going to be bit-rotting trash sitting on TR (as you even acknowledge below). > > The -1 spec explicitly states that people wanting to implement WebIDL are > invited to read > the main WebIDL specification (that, ideally, should be automatically > published as /TR/WebIDL ) because yes > WebIDL-1 is _not_ the WebIDL specification, just a frozen snapshot of what > was implemented as the > time of publication, not more than that, and bound to be replaced by a > subsequent level later on. Yes, but it's grossly obsolete and no one but patent lawyers should be, or will be, looking at it. So why bother putting it on TR? You can't seriously say that anyone writing specs would be using it to implement against - not even as joke. It has zero value from a technical perspective - yet huge value from an IPR perspective. I'm all for getting the IPR protection, but let's stop with putting useless things on TR.
RE: Quick update on WebIDL "Level 1"
On July 9, 2016 at 6:24:56 AM, Domenic Denicola (d...@domenic.me) wrote: > From: Travis Leithead [mailto:travis.leith...@microsoft.com] > > > The purpose of the “Level 1” document is to serve as a stable reference for > > W3C specs that > link to WebIDL. It contains a subset of the WebIDL syntax that is considered > stable (as > verified by interoperable tests). Implementations should not use the Level 1 > document > as a guide, but instead track changes to the editors draft. We expect to > follow-up Level > 1 with a Level 2 as additional editor’s draft syntax and behavior stabilizes, > are implemented > as part of other specs, and shown to be interoperable. > > Why is it acceptable for specs to reference a version of Web IDL that nobody > should implement? This is a totally valid question, but we've had this debate 1001 times. Perhaps a better question is: how can we get patent protection (making this subset of WebIDL royalty free for society), but without harming the ecosystem by confusing implementers and developers by publishing on the "/TRash" space (as most of us now unfortunately referring to it). We need a way to clearly indicate that, for a subset of documents, RECs on TR represent a royalty free set of ideas (as kindly and honorably granted by the W3C Membership) - and should only be referred to by patent lawyers and government officials. That it's for those groups should be stated and promoted proudly, not disparagingly. And, that implementers should be looking at the living document instead. The value of TR need not be diminished - in fact: it should be correctly used to published the documents that enshrine the royalty free status of particular specifications. Perhaps we need a new space just for documents that represent and agree to set of royalty free ideas? (i..e, if it's a REC, it does into this new space - and gets clearly marked for the appropriate target audience, which is not implementers or developers - but patent lawyers and government officials)... I think we've also had this debate 10001 times too... but we need to do something folks, as the division between the forks and the reality of how web specs are developed is hurting everyone :( Kind regards, Marcos
Re: Request to move HTML5.1 to Candidate Recommendation (CR)
> On 3 Jun 2016, at 2:28 AM, John Foliot <john.fol...@deque.com> wrote: > > Hi Marcos, > > While it may feel spammy to you, this is a long-standing part of the W3C > Consensus process, and generally speaking all CfCs include the following: > > "Positive responses are preferred and encouraged, silence will be considered > as assent." > > > On the surface, and in principle, I disagree that the "only thing that > matters is objections", as visible signs of strong support matter too. > Receiving a handful of +1 emails is to me an acceptable process (unless this > group chooses to use another means of confirming consensus: perhaps WBS > surveys or similar?) That would be great. Just anything but +1 emails please. > > JF > > > > > >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 11:14 AM, <mar...@marcosc.com> wrote: >> Can we please kindly stop the +1s spam? It greatly diminishes the value of >> this mailing list. >> >> For the purpose of progressing a spec, the only thing that matters is >> objections. >> >> > On 3 Jun 2016, at 12:36 AM, Mona Rekhi <mona.re...@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote: >> > >> > +1 >> > >> > Mona Rekhi >> > SSB BART Group >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Léonie Watson [mailto:t...@tink.uk] >> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 8:48 AM >> > To: 'public-webapps WG' <public-webapps@w3.org> >> > Subject: CFC: Request to move HTML5.1 to Candidate Recommendation (CR) >> > >> > Hello WP, >> > >> > This is a call for consensus to request that W3C publish the current HTML >> > Working Draft (WD) as a Candidate Recommendation (CR). It has been posted >> > to public-webapps@w3.org as the official email for this WG. >> > >> > Please reply to this thread on public-webapps@w3.org no later than end of >> > day on 10 June. Positive responses are preferred and encouraged, silence >> > will be considered as assent. >> > >> > The current HTML5.1 WD [1] improves upon HTML5. It includes updates that >> > make it more reliable, more readable and understandable, and a better >> > match for reality. Substantial changes between HTML5 and HTML5.1 can be >> > found in the spec [2]. >> > >> > When a specification moves to CR it triggers a Call For Exclusions, per >> > section 4 of the W3C Patent Policy [3]. No substantive additions can be >> > made to a specification in CR without starting a new Call for Exclusions, >> > so we will put HTML5.1 into "feature freeze". It is possible to make >> > editorial updates as necessary, and features marked "At Risk" may be >> > removed if found not to be interoperable. >> > >> > The following features are considered "at risk". If we cannot identify at >> > least two shipping implementations, they will be marked "at risk" in the >> > CR and may be removed from the Proposed Recommendation. >> > >> > keygen element. [issue 43] >> > label as a reassociatable element [issue 109] Fixing requestAnimationFrame >> > to 60Hz, not implementation-defined [issues 159/375/422] >> > registerContentHandler [Issue 233] inputmode attribute of the input >> > element [issue 269] autofill of form elements [issue 372] menu, menuitem >> > and context menus. [issue 373] dialog element [issue 427] Text tracks >> > exposing in-band metadata best practices [Issue 461] datetime and >> > datatime-local states of the input element [Issue 462] >> > >> > Please share implementation details for any of these features on Github. >> > To mark other features "at risk", please identify them by 10th June >> > (ideally by filing an issue and providing a test case). >> > >> > At the same time we move HTML5.1 into CR, we plan to continue updating the >> > Editor's Draft, and in the next few weeks we expect to post a Call for >> > Consensus to publish it as the First Public Working Draft of HTML5.2, so >> > improving HTML will continue without a pause. It also means that changes >> > that didn't make it into >> > HTML5.1 will not have long to wait before being incorporated into the >> > specification. >> > >> > Léonie on behalf of the WP chairs and team, and HTML editors. >> > [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/ >> > [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/changes.html#changes >> > [3] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Poli
Re: Request to move HTML5.1 to Candidate Recommendation (CR)
Can we please kindly stop the +1s spam? It greatly diminishes the value of this mailing list. For the purpose of progressing a spec, the only thing that matters is objections. > On 3 Jun 2016, at 12:36 AM, Mona Rekhiwrote: > > +1 > > Mona Rekhi > SSB BART Group > > -Original Message- > From: Léonie Watson [mailto:t...@tink.uk] > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 8:48 AM > To: 'public-webapps WG' > Subject: CFC: Request to move HTML5.1 to Candidate Recommendation (CR) > > Hello WP, > > This is a call for consensus to request that W3C publish the current HTML > Working Draft (WD) as a Candidate Recommendation (CR). It has been posted to > public-webapps@w3.org as the official email for this WG. > > Please reply to this thread on public-webapps@w3.org no later than end of > day on 10 June. Positive responses are preferred and encouraged, silence will > be considered as assent. > > The current HTML5.1 WD [1] improves upon HTML5. It includes updates that make > it more reliable, more readable and understandable, and a better match for > reality. Substantial changes between HTML5 and HTML5.1 can be found in the > spec [2]. > > When a specification moves to CR it triggers a Call For Exclusions, per > section 4 of the W3C Patent Policy [3]. No substantive additions can be made > to a specification in CR without starting a new Call for Exclusions, so we > will put HTML5.1 into "feature freeze". It is possible to make editorial > updates as necessary, and features marked "At Risk" may be removed if found > not to be interoperable. > > The following features are considered "at risk". If we cannot identify at > least two shipping implementations, they will be marked "at risk" in the CR > and may be removed from the Proposed Recommendation. > > keygen element. [issue 43] > label as a reassociatable element [issue 109] Fixing requestAnimationFrame to > 60Hz, not implementation-defined [issues 159/375/422] registerContentHandler > [Issue 233] inputmode attribute of the input element [issue 269] autofill of > form elements [issue 372] menu, menuitem and context menus. [issue 373] > dialog element [issue 427] Text tracks exposing in-band metadata best > practices [Issue 461] datetime and datatime-local states of the input element > [Issue 462] > > Please share implementation details for any of these features on Github. To > mark other features "at risk", please identify them by 10th June (ideally by > filing an issue and providing a test case). > > At the same time we move HTML5.1 into CR, we plan to continue updating the > Editor's Draft, and in the next few weeks we expect to post a Call for > Consensus to publish it as the First Public Working Draft of HTML5.2, so > improving HTML will continue without a pause. It also means that changes that > didn't make it into > HTML5.1 will not have long to wait before being incorporated into the > specification. > > Léonie on behalf of the WP chairs and team, and HTML editors. > [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/ > [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/changes.html#changes > [3] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exclusion > > [issue 43] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/43 > [issue 109] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/109 > [issues 159/375/422] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/159 and links [issue > 233] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/233 > [issue 269] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/269 > [issue 372] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/372 > [issue 373] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/373 > [issue 427] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/427 > [Issue 461] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/461 > [Issue 462] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/462 > > > -- > @LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem > > > > > >
Re: CFC
> On 25 May 2016, at 3:54 AM, Léonie Watsonwrote: > > Hello WP, > > At the AC meeting in March 2016 the WP co-chairs indicated that the > Packaging on the Web specification [1] would benefit from further incubation > before continuing along the Recommendation track. > > This is a CFC to publish Packaging on the Web as a W3C note. We generally "gut" Notes to avoid confusion and prevent implementation. It might be fine to gut it if there is no implementer interest (particularly give Service Workers and HTTP2). But then, we should not use "incubation" as a euphemism for "no one is going to implement this and we don't want it" as it demeans the work of groups like the WIGC - that actually do incubation. At least, I will strongly object to the use of that word if your intention is to kill the spec. So, what then is the real reason for WP terminating work on the spec? Can we see the minutes from the rationale given to the AC? > If the CFC > passes, the transition of the specification to note status will be done > within the current WP WG charter. > > If you have comments or concerns about this CFC, please send them to > public-webapps@w3.org no later than 2nd June 2016. Positive responses are > preferred and encouraged, but silence will be considered as agreement with > the proposal. Is the plan then to transition it to the WICG for incubation? If so, we can just take it and there is no need for process - but we only take it if there is actual implementer interest and not if it's not going anywhere. > > Léonie on behalf of the WP chairs and team. > [1] http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/ > > -- > @LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem > > > >
[manifest] Status
(please cc me if you want a response from me. I don't subscribe to *any* mailing lists anymore.) On October 22, 2015 at 6:32:44 PM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@gmail.com) wrote: > what, if anything, is blocking the spec's progression; No blockers. Just waiting on implementations. > what, if anything, do you need from the group/staff/chairs to help the spec > make progress; Not much... reviews, comments, PRs etc. are always nice tho. > what is the status and plan for the test suite; what is the rough timeline > for the next publication; The spec is auto published whenever we commit stuff. However, if you mean, "when will it progress to CR?", I would hope sometime next year. Chrome already implements the spec, and Gecko too... we should hopefully see it being used in Gecko-based products in Q1 2015 (fingers crossed!). > what data in [PubStatus] needs to be updated; > etc. None.
Re: [admin] Web Platform WG is the new WebApps
On October 12, 2015 at 8:23:25 AM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@gmail.com) wrote: > Hi All, > > On October 10, the consortium formerly started the Web Platform WG > [Charter] thus terminating WebApps. > > My expectation is this change will have little to no impact on any work > started in WebApps. That said, please note the charter indicates > WebApps' less developed specs (f.ex. the Editing specs) need some > "incubation" before they may proceed on the Recommendation track. > However, that was effectively how WebApps operated so I don't see this > as a change - a spec still needs implementation commitments before > advancing to the later Recommendation stages. For incubation, members are welcomed to bring their specs Web Incubator CG: http://github.com/wicg The WICG can help members get specs into shape and connect them with developers and other implementers. It's a fast, IPR friendly way, to get ideas road-tested before formal standardization. > The WPWG has its own Github repo [Github] and the group will not use > W3C's wiki. (Only a small number of WebApps' Editors actively use W3C > wiki documents (primarily IDB v2 features, Pointer Lock v2 features, > Gamepad v2 features, and D3E) and I will work with those Editors to move > their relevant wiki information to their spec's repo.) Please please please (please!), don't use a single repository as a dumpling ground for spec - it makes it impossible for people to follow individual work items, file bugs, etc.. Please use separate repositories for each work item. I would suggest maybe making your own organization on Github, and then managing your specs through that. Again, see: http://github.com/wicg
Re: Stability of Widget DigSig
On Friday, May 8, 2015, Anders Rundgren anders.rundgren@gmail.com wrote: On 2015-05-08 14:50, Arthur Barstow wrote: On 5/8/15 8:47 AM, Anders Rundgren wrote: On 2015-05-08 14:32, Frederick Hirsch wrote: no objection, the referenced document is a Recommendation, isn't it? http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-digsig/ This seems to be a rather theoretical discussion: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/SDK/High-Level_APIs/widget FYI, the usage of widget in widgets-digsig is not at all related to the use of widget in the MDN resource reference above. Just for my understanding, is the W3C Widget TR generally supported then? Yes. For example, PhoneGap/Cordova which is used to target every platform. Anders -AB
Re: Stability of Widget DigSig
On Friday, May 8, 2015, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@gmail.com wrote: [ + Marcos and Frederick ] Hi Andrew, The group stopped working on XML Digital Signature for Widgets several years ago and there is no plan to resume work (except to process errata as required). Marcos, Frederick - this spec's namespace document includes the following statement: [[ http://www.w3.org/ns/widgets-digsig/ Implementers should be aware that this document is not stable. ]] Any objections from you or anyone else to remove this statement? None. It's stable. -Thanks, ArtB On 5/7/15 5:55 AM, Andrew Twigger wrote: ATSC and CEA are developing standards that include the ability to download digital signed applications. Their current specifications reference the W3C Recommendation for XML Digital Signature for Widgets (18 April 2013). However, the associated Widgets Digital Signature Namespace ( http://www.w3.org/ns/widgets-digsig/) contains a statement that “Implementers should be aware that this document is not stable.” which has raised questions as to the stability and suitability of referencing Widget DigSig. The alternative would be to reference XAdES with the C and T forms to allow for the inclusion of timestamp and certificate revocation information which are not included in Widget DigSig. I would be pleased to receive any information regarding the stability of Widget DigSig and whether referencing XAdES would provide a better alternative. Thank-you, Andrew Twigger
Re: Permissions API vs local APIs
On May 6, 2015 at 2:38:06 PM, Mounir Lamouri (mou...@lamouri.fr) wrote: Marcos|Mounir, do you two have any thoughts on this? I agree with Jonas: we should delegate the check to the Permissions API. However, I don't see how I can enforce that if the Push API doesn't want to. I would be more than happy to have the spec specify the PermssionDescriptor for Push, FWIW. What Mounir said. I guess we can also help add this to Push via a PR.
Re: CfC: publish LCWD of Screen Orientation API; deadline September 18
On September 18, 2014 at 6:53:38 AM, Mounir Lamouri (mou...@lamouri.fr) wrote: On Tue, 16 Sep 2014, at 08:28, Jonas Sicking wrote: I think it's likely to result in many implementation bugs if we rely on this being defined buried inside an algorithm rather than at least mentioned at the definition of the property. I think it's good feedback. I could probably make this more visible. Would you mind opening an issue marked as Enhancement and may go with a proposal of what you believe would be easier to find. I don't want to have you do the editor work but given that the problem isn't that the information is missing but that it is not well exposed, fresh eyes would be better to help with that ;) Filed: https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/79
Re: CfC: publish LCWD of Screen Orientation API; deadline September 18
On September 24, 2014 at 8:43:10 AM, Anne van Kesteren (ann...@annevk.nl) wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Arthur Barstow wrote: Anne - would you please confirm if your comments have been adequately addressed? I disagree with the prioritization of creating a snapshot over defining (even to an approximation) what implementers actually have to do. I said as much on GitHub and IRC, but it seems my comments have been deferred nonetheless. Anne is, unfortunately, right. There is no point in putting anything on /TR/ until the W3C fixes the ability to have documents sync with what is on GH. Otherwise, we will just find ourselves here again in a few months. The stability of the document doesn't have any correlation to it appearing on the /TR/ space, and hence, it would misguided for us to push for its publication until the snapshots issue is fixed.
PSA: publishing new WD of URL spec
On Thursday, September 11, 2014, Robin Berjon ro...@w3.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ro...@w3.org'); wrote: On 10/09/2014 18:48 , Marcos Caceres wrote: This is a formal objection to publication of this specification. The rationale for the objection was already sent to the wwwprocess list. Would you lift yours if Domenic lifted his? Only once I have clear answers to the following (and see actual proof). I know you already addressed some of this in your previous email to Dominic. 1. How will the spec be kept up to date? i.e., what technical means will be put in place by the w3c to assure that the latest is always on TR. 2. How will the W3C determine when a spec is ready for LC/CR? 3. How will the W3C cope with changes occurring to the living document after CR? (See Boris' emails) 4. Will the W3C prevent search engines from finding the copy/pasted document? Particularly any static snapshots. 5. What indicators (e.g., the big red box) will be put into the spec to indicate that the WHATWG version is the canonical version? 6. Out of respect for both the Editor and the WHATWG as a standards consortium, how will the W3C attribute authorship of the documents and well as show that the document originates from the WHATWG? (Ps: Your claim about 12 step programs have been debunked by science. See [1] :)) [1] http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery
Re: PSA: publishing new WD of URL spec
On September 10, 2014 at 12:43:02 PM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@gmail.com) wrote: [ Sorry for the cross-posting but this is about a joint WD publication between WebApps and TAG. ] This is heads-up (aka PublicServiceAnnoucement) about the intent to publish a new WD of the URL spec (on or around Sept 16) using this ED as the basis: As previously agree, and codified in WebApps' current [Charter], the WD will be published jointly by WebApps and the TAG. I realize some people do not support W3C publishing the URL spec, so as reminder - as defined in WebApps' off-topic discussion policy ([OffTopic]) - if anyone has any _process-type_ comments, concerns, etc. about this publication - please send that feedback to the public-w3process list [w3process]. Please do _not_ send such feedback to public-webapps nor www-tag. This is a formal objection to publication of this specification. The rationale for the objection was already sent to the wwwprocess list.
Re: Proposal for a Permissions API
On Friday, September 5, 2014, Kostiainen, Anssi anssi.kostiai...@intel.com wrote: On 04 Sep 2014, at 23:18, Marcos Caceres mar...@marcosc.com javascript:; wrote: Absolutely, we should be addressing them at the API level. I guess you mean each API should address this in a way that fits the design of the particular API the best? Correct. Sorry if I wasn't clear. And something like permissions.js could then be used to abstract away the differences and provide an API similar to that proposed by Mounir? I would hope we wouldn't need that, but sure. It's a risk (reality?) that we end up with inconsistencies across APIs. For instance, adding a way to determine if the permission has been granted in Geo without actually needing to use the API. It seems as if Mounir’s proposal addresses exactly this requirement, but not at the “[Geolocation] API level”. Which I'm personally not a huge fan of. Thanks, -Anssi
Re: Proposal for a Permissions API
On September 4, 2014 at 4:14:57 PM, Florian Bösch (pya...@gmail.com) wrote: This is an issue to use, for a user. - http://codeflow.org/issues/permissions.html - http://codeflow.org/issues/permissions.jpg This sets up an unrealistic straw-man. Are there any real sites that would need to show all of the above all at the same time? - In firefox it's a succession of popup It's also an issue to use for a developer, because the semantics and methods for requesting, getting, being denied and managing permissions differ. Sometimes permissions aren't query able. It is more worthwhile addressing the above, so to avoid the sequence of pop-ups. It's my stated opinion that ignoring these issue will not make them go away. And delaying addressing UX and consistency issues just contributes to a proliferation of bad UX and inconsistent and difficult to use APIs. Absolutely, we should be addressing them at the API level. For instance, adding a way to determine if the permission has been granted in Geo without actually needing to use the API.
Re: Proposal for a Permissions API
-- Marcos Caceres On September 4, 2014 at 4:24:56 PM, Florian Bösch (pya...@gmail.com) wrote: On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Marcos Caceres wrote: This sets up an unrealistic straw-man. Are there any real sites that would need to show all of the above all at the same time? Let's say you're writing a video editor, you'd like: - To get access to the locations API so that you can geotag the videos - Get access to the notifications API so that you can inform the user when rendering has finished. - Get user media to capture material - Put a window in fullscreen (perhaps on a second monitor) or to view footage without other decorations A developer can then have a Let's get started! screen, where they explain why they need each feature before they request it. Of course it's a bit contrived, but it's an example of where we're steering to. APIs don't stop being introduced as of today, and some years down the road, I'm sure more APIs that require permissions will be introduced, which increases the likelihood of moving such an example from the realm of unlikely to pretty common. Absolutely. I the above, a dev could still ask for each API as needed. Like: Ok, let's get your camera working. We need you to grant us access to it. Get user media Great! will you want to geotag your videos? If so, confirm the prompt. You can always turn this off in the app later. geolocation (or a checkbox-like option in their app - this can be enabled during recording even!) fullscreen is just a button in the UI: works just like it does today. None of the above e require all permissions to be asked at once. There is a great article that discusses this approach: http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/04/the-right-way-to-ask-users-for-ios-permissions/
Re: RfC: pre-LC version of Screen Orientation; deadline August 18
On August 14, 2014 at 3:23:23 AM, Dominique Hazael-Massieux (d...@w3.org) wrote: HTH, It does! thank you. I've filed a bug for each on GH. https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/ Hope to fix 'em up soon!
Re: My requirements for the Manifest for Web Applications
Hi Mark, On August 6, 2014 at 5:22:01 AM, Mark Taylor (mark.s...@base88.com) wrote: My main feedback/concerns is that it is currently as inherently inflexible as the cache manifest file, rendering it useless in many use cases: Specification assumes that the entire app is self contained and requires a consistent display mode True for v1 :( Trying to fix this in v2. Most web apps will have both internal links (to other parts of the web app), and external links to elements outside of the web app. True. External links often do not contain a route back to the web app, so the preferred behaviour is either for it to a) launch in the web browser, True. or b) launch within the app, with a navigation element allowing users to return to the web app. True. I guess by navigation element you mean: 1. iframe 2. window.open() 3. a href= target=_blank Traditionally this has been hacked into web apps using an iFrame. But there are so many inherent problems with iFrames on mobile. Viewport settings permeate through to iframe document (e.g. pinch to zoom setting), width/height, scrolling, gestures, cross browser issues etc etc etc, the list goes on. So I don’t see this as a desirable/suitable solution. Ok, these are either browser bugs or developer bugs tho - so, we have to assume those will be fixed. But you are correct nonetheless. I would like to see this specification address this common use case. So, part of this is addressed by the scope property. See: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/48 tl;dr: it defines what URLs are part of the app (and implies which are not). So: ```JSON { scope: //foo.com/myapp/ } ``` So, everything in the https://foo/com/myapp/; directory is my app. Open everything else in the browser. If you navigate from foo.com/myapp/, to bar.com, then bar.com will have its own display mode (and you'll be jumping to a new app, if bar.com is installed). If bar.com doesn't have a display mode, then bar.com is just shown with browser chrome. Specification assumes a simple application in one orientation Many web apps include mixed content, often from third-parties. In some cases, the content is delivered in mixed orientations. Interesting, would like to see some concrete examples of this. Imagine a list of widgets, each widget that can be launched may be better suited in a different orientation. And so it makes sense to allow the web app to define the orientation at any given moment in time, not just on initial load. This is already supported. As the spec says: Once the web application is running, other means can change the orientation of a top-level browsing context (such as via [SCREEN-ORIENTATION] API). Thus, you can change the orientation to whatever the device supports after. Unlocking returns you back to what is defined in the manifest. The more serious problem the spec has is that it assumes one particular orientation for all screen sizes. See: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/168 Basically, we need to be able to do this to support tablets/phones properly: { orientation: any, some-condition-device-width-or-watevas: { orientation: portrait } } Specification assumes combined use of cache manifest file? I can’t see any reference to a splash screen / loading sequence control. True about splash screen. We are still debating if we want to support that. See: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/9 This is often the most difficult part of a web application. Different media is required based on many variables including device, screen size, browser, locale, language, other more specific variables. The only way to meet these requirements is to use Javascript, and once all of these required resources are identified and sourced can we display the app. Correct. We are working on various other specs to deal with that. For example, Resource Hints: https://igrigorik.github.io/resource-hints/ And Resource Priorities: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ResourcePriorities/Overview.html There are other specs in the works too... like Client Hints: https://github.com/igrigorik/http-client-hints The inherent inflexibilities in the cache manifest mechanism mean that it is not used by anyone i know. If your app is large, the cache manifest is too inflexible. If your app is small, it’s too small to need/benefit from a cache manifest. I would like to see this area addressed. How can the web developer ensure a smooth/seamless loading sequence for his/her dynamic web app when updated content is required. My friend:D you are in luck! let me introduce you to the service worker. It's everything you asked for and so much more: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/explainer.md In the manifest, you will be able to declare a service worker using the service_worker property:
Re: Screen orientation API feedback
On August 5, 2014 at 6:33:46 AM, Anne van Kesteren (ann...@annevk.nl) wrote: snip This is great feedback - thanks for this Anne! I've captured each of the issues you raised in the bug tracker on GH [1] (and cc'ed you on them). We will address them in the next few days. https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/
RE: pre-LC version of Screen Orientation; deadline August 18
On August 4, 2014 at 8:36:21 AM, Paul Cotton (paul.cot...@microsoft.com) wrote: Section 6 [1] refers to bug 25310 [2] and suggests that the HTML5 sandboxing material could be changed. The current specification refers to HTML5.0 [3] which is currently in its last CR period before progressing to Proposed Recommendation. If a change is required in the HTML specification then it is more likely that this would occur in HTML 5.1 [4]. Thanks Paul. Will be sure to address this before LC. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: WebIDL Spec Status
On June 24, 2014 at 2:33:41 PM, Glenn Adams (gl...@skynav.com) wrote: They are. By having me test IDL features, by having me report them to Cameron, by having me participate in this WG. Are you asking if they can supply an editor? That would best be handled by having the chairs issue a call for volunteers for co-editor on WebIDL. Anyone can edit the spec. It's just a github repo. Send a PR. There is no need for a special call from the Chairs as an excuse to do work. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: WebIDL Spec Status
On June 23, 2014 at 4:07:09 PM, Glenn Adams (gl...@skynav.com) wrote: What is the plan, i.e., schedule timeline, for moving WebIDL to REC? We have now a two year old CR that appears to be stuck and a 2nd Edition that I'm not sure has made it to FPWD. Given the high degree of dependency from other specs and implementations on this work, we really need to find a way to wrap up this work or at least publish something reasonably stable. IMO, we should just concede that this document needs to be a Living Standard (tm). Trying to move this through the W3C process is clearly not working. Even if we were able to take the V1 bits to Rec (a lot of which is now obsolete), the V2 stuff is already widely supported and heavily relied on by browser vendors. IMO, it's a waste of everyone's time to try to maintain multiple versions. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: WebApp installation via the browser
On June 2, 2014 at 4:52:41 PM, Alex Russell (slightly...@google.com) wrote: The Chrome team is excited about this direction and is collaborating on the manifest format in order to help make aspects of this real. In particular we're excited to see a Service Worker entry added to the format in a future version as well as controls for window decorations and exit extents. This is great to hear. I've captured SW integration in the issue tracker [#161], but would like to hear more about what you have in mind for window decorations and exit extents. If you can give me some pointers to what you mean, I'm happy to go and do the research for the use cases, etc. [#161] https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/161 -- Marcos Caceres
Re: Fetch API
On May 29, 2014 at 9:02:35 AM, Anne van Kesteren (ann...@annevk.nl) wrote: The plan is to implement and ship this fairly soon, so I figured I'd ask for review now, while we're still drafting the text: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#fetch-api In particular I'd like feedback on the design of Request and Response classes, and the fetch() method. Having these interfaces exposed is going to be great! Few small things that stood out for me... enum RequestMode { same-origin, tainted cross-origin, CORS, CORS-with-forced-preflight }; I think these are badly named (even though they use the names used in HTML and Fetch). It's going to be annoying to type these out for developers. I would change them to: enum RequestMode { same-origin, cors, cors-tainted, cors-preflight }; And then map them to the appropriate concept in the specs. enum RequestOmitCredentialsMode { always, CORS, never }; The item CORS here is not self evident (unlike always/never modes). Can you find a better word?
Re: [manifest] Fetching restriction, Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Mounir Lamouri mou...@lamouri.frjavascript:; wrote: Then, it might make sense to have the manifest same origin as the web page because obviously making start_url same origin as the manifest would be moot if the manifest doesn't have to be same origin with the web page ;) I think we have a winner. Yep! Will update the spec. Thanks for all the good input. -- http://annevankesteren.nl/
[manifest] Fetching restriction, Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On May 27, 2014 at 9:25:26 AM, Ben Francis (bfran...@mozilla.com) wrote: As per our conversation in IRC, something else I'd like to highlight is the fact that in the current version of the spec any web site can host an app manifest for any web app. I'm really sorry, seems I wasn't very coherent on IRC - it's not possible for site A to use site B's manifest unless site B explicitly shares it (using CORS). Unlike with stylesheets or other link'ed resources, the fetch mode for manifests is always CORS - meaning that the following would not work: titlefakegmail.com/title link rel=manifest href=http://mail.google.com/manifest.json; Even if the above manifest.json existed, the above would result in a network error when the user agent tries to fetch manifest.json from google.com. The error is because the request is not same origin, and because google doesn't include the CORS header allowing the cross-origin request. The only way that gmail would allow my own app store to use its manifest would be for Google to include the HTTP header: Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://myownappstore.com; Or from *. You can see this in the spec in the obtaining a manifest algorithm [1]. Sorry again about the confusion. Hope that is more clear now! That means for example that I could create my own app store for web apps and provide a listing for a GMail app which users can add to their homescreen, without any involvement from Google. The only way one could do what you describe would be for my own app store to host its own manifests. So: http://myownappstore.com/gmail/index.html Would contain: link rel=manifest href=http://myownappstore.com/gmail/manifest.json; Which would have: { name: Gmail start_url: http://gmail.com; } This would allow custom stores that provide tailored app experiences for sites that lack manifests. Where this could become a problem in the future is if manifests start granting elevated privileges (e.g., access to specific APIs or unlimited storage). However, the security model could then be refined so that, for instance, only same origin manifests that are served over HTTPS get special powers. In such a case, non-same-origin manifests could be tainted and only the basic metadata from the manifest would be used by the user agent. It would be good to hear some opinions on whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that manifests don't have to be served from the same origin as the web app itself. It would indeed be great to get some more opinions about this. [1] http://w3c.github.io/manifest/#obtaining-a-manifest -- Marcos Caceres
[manifest] URL Scope and priorities, was Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On May 27, 2014 at 9:19:45 AM, Ben Francis (bfran...@mozilla.com) wrote: I think a particular problem with having no defined scope for apps is when you want to hyperlink from one web app to another. A hyperlink with no specified target window will always open in the browsing context of the current app, regardless of whether the URL belongs to another app or web site. That means that the level of browser chrome you get when following a hyperlink (as well as the orientation of the page and the title and icon shown in the task switcher etc.) depends on where you navigated from rather than where you navigated to. I would like to see some way to define the scope to which an app manifest applies, so that the user agent knows which URLs belong to which apps and therefore what display properties to use for a given URL. I strongly agree that we need to prioritize: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/114 The CSP stuff is also pretty important. Would like to see that also prioritized above other things.
Re: [manifest] Fetching restriction, Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On May 27, 2014 at 2:30:32 PM, Jonas Sicking (jo...@sicking.cc) wrote: On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Marcos Caceres wrote: The only way that gmail would allow my own app store to use its manifest would be for Google to include the HTTP header: Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://myownappstore.com; This is a bit of an abuse of CORS. hmmm... I thought this was *exactly* the point of having the *-Allow-Origin header (restrict sharing to the domains the server chooses in browsers). Adding an Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * header currently has the semantic meaning of any website can read the contents of this file. I.e. it only means that the bits in the file are accessible from other websites. Yep. The point was that combined with the `start_url` member, you can make install pages away from the origin where the application resides. That means that for a webserver on the public internet it is currently always safe to add the Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * header to any file since all files can be read anyway by simply using a different HTTP client than a browser, such as wget. Sure. But that's not the point here. The use of CORS here is to control who can do what within the context of the browser (as the policy enforcement point). Of course, anyone can just go and download anything with wget or whatever - but that's not going to give that person a web app with the manifest applied. It does not currently mean, and I don't think it should mean, I am ok with acting as a manifest for any website. This is a different interpretation of the semantics of sharing a manifest - and certainly not the primary use case (though http://generic-manifest.com/manifest.json; could be useful for testing and other interesting things). The idea was to say which stores can create a product page with the manifest. I think restricting manifests to same-origin is the way to go. I would not be surprised if manifests will eventually end up with similar security properties as hosting HTML files currently does. Given the current stuff the manifest defines, I don't have a strong opinion - but it certainly does seem like a few less potential headaches down the line. I'm happy to make this change and restrict to same origin.
Re: [manifest] Fetching restriction, Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On May 27, 2014 at 3:31:15 PM, Ben Francis (bfran...@mozilla.com) wrote: To be clear, this is the case I was talking about. The benefit is that it makes it much easier to build a large app store of tailored app experiences for sites that lack manifests without the involvement of app authors themselves. For example,everything.me(http://everything.me) may have a larger catalogue of web apps than the Firefox Marketplace because the latter requires same-origin manifests and for app authors to submit their own apps, whereas the former doesn't require any involvement from app authors themselves. One risk of allowing cross-origin manifests might be that these tailored app experiences are perceived by the actual app author and/or end users as a fake app masquerading as the real thing. In the longer term when additional features are added to the manifest there could be additional risks. That is why I'm interested in feedback on whether this is a desirable feature or not. That's a very good summary of both the use case and the problems. I'm also interested in hearing feedback. As Ben makes clear, same-origin basically kills installations from custom stores. It means one or two additional clicks for users to install an app - but we assure that apps are always being installed from the source. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [manifest] Fetching restriction, Re: [manifest] Update and call for review
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.comjavascript:; wrote: On May 27, 2014 at 2:30:32 PM, Jonas Sicking (jo...@sicking.cc) wrote: On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Marcos Caceres wrote: The only way that gmail would allow my own app store to use its manifest would be for Google to include the HTTP header: Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://myownappstore.com; This is a bit of an abuse of CORS. hmmm... I thought this was *exactly* the point of having the *-Allow-Origin header (restrict sharing to the domains the server chooses in browsers). Adding an Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * header currently has the semantic meaning of any website can read the contents of this file. I.e. it only means that the bits in the file are accessible from other websites. Yep. The point was that combined with the `start_url` member, you can make install pages away from the origin where the application resides. That means that for a webserver on the public internet it is currently always safe to add the Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * header to any file since all files can be read anyway by simply using a different HTTP client than a browser, such as wget. Sure. But that's not the point here. The use of CORS here is to control who can do what within the context of the browser (as the policy enforcement point). Of course, anyone can just go and download anything with wget or whatever - but that's not going to give that person a web app with the manifest applied. So let's start by asking this: What are you trying to protect against by using CORS at all? Rather than using the policy that img uses. If the *only* thing you are trying to protect is the actual bytes in the manifest itself, then CORS is indeed the right solution. Yes. This was the only intent. But if we're trying to protect more things, then CORS strikes me as the wrong solution. And I do think that we will want to protect against other things in the future. In FirefoxOS the origin of an app is the origin of the app's manifest. This app-origin is then used in a bunch of situations. For example, we allow pages from the app's to store unlimited amount of data through various storage APIs (localStorage excluded for reasons I won't get into here). So if you hosted the manifest on a CDN, then would mean that only pages whose origin is that of the CDN would get access to unlimited storage. That is very unlikely what developers want. Agree - the FX OS model is certainly not the intent or how we, the Eds, envisioned it working. The manifest relates to the explicit or implicit start URL (and soon the URL scope), but not to the manifest's origin. In this case hosting the manifest on the CDN would be a footgun, but not a security problem. I can't off the top of my head think of any actual security problems with putting the manifest on a CDN, but I would be surprised if that wouldn't happen as we expand the manifest feature set. And the footgun is bad enough. So I would recommend sticking with having the manifest be same-origin with the HTML page. Thanks for the additional data point about how FxOS does things.
[manifest] Update and call for review
Hi, Quick update: the Editors have closed off all V1 bugs for [manifest] and implementations in Blink and Gecko are underway. A thorough review of [manifest] by interested parties would be greatly appreciated! You can file bugs in our GitHub [bug tracker]. We now have the option to cherry-pick V2 features to either spin off into separate specs or to add to the current document. You can view the V2 features at [V2]. See also the [CSP-member], which is already in its own spec. Devs and implementers, please let us know which V2 features should be prioritized. I've also sent the spec (and [CSP-member]) for a security review to: * public-webappsec * public-web-security Thanks! [manifest] http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ [bug tracker]https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues [V2] https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues?labels=V2page=1state=open [CSP-member] https://github.com/w3c/manifest-csp/ -- Marcos Caceres
Re: An error in document http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/
On April 18, 2014 at 11:05:04 AM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: On 4/18/14 10:53 AM, ext Xiaoqian Cindy Wu wrote: Yes, this is getting much better; thanks Cindy! There is still a bug with the errata doc's differences document link (i.e. it still returns an error): [[ href=http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A//www.w3.org/TR/widgets/doc2=http%3A//dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/;differences document ]] Marcos - this should be updated or perhaps just removed. yeah, removing it is fine I think.
Re: An error in document http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/
On April 17, 2014 at 5:46:17 AM, Wang, Peter H (peter.h.w...@intel.com) wrote: Hi all, I’ve found a small error in document http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/. In “7.12.4 Example of Usage”: 古老瓷地图 Ancient Chinese Maps should be 古老中国地图 Ancient Chinese Maps Thank you very much. Thanks! Fixed: https://github.com/w3c/packaged-webapps/commit/ae4a1d349e0550dbaad0dbac1bd05c62e942086f It's in the living standard version: http://w3c.github.io/packaged-webapps/packaging/
Re: An error in document http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/
On April 17, 2014 at 12:21:06 PM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: On 4/17/14 12:09 PM, ext Marcos Caceres wrote: On April 17, 2014 at 5:46:17 AM, Wang, Peter H (peter.h.w...@intel.com) wrote: Hi all, I’ve found a small error in document http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/. In “7.12.4 Example of Usage”: 古老瓷地图 Ancient Chinese Maps should be 古老中国地图 Ancient Chinese Maps Thank you very much. Thanks! Fixed: https://github.com/w3c/packaged-webapps/commit/ae4a1d349e0550dbaad0dbac1bd05c62e942086f Thanks to Peter for reporting this and to Marcos for updating the spec. It's in the living standard version: http://w3c.github.io/packaged-webapps/packaging/ Marcos - it seems like this correction should be added to the errata doc . I don't have CVS access anymore (hell, I don't even thing I have cvs installed on my computer!:)). The least painful thing would be to point the errata form the REC to the document on GH: http://w3c.github.io/packaged-webapps/packaging/errata.html I've already updated that document to reflect the recent chance. I also noticed: the REC has a link to an ED that now 404s and the errata doc has a link to a differences document that now returns an error. Cindy, Yves - would one of you please update the TR with a new link to the ED (that Marcos provides, perhaps the URL he gives above)? Please point to this: http://w3c.github.io/packaged-webapps/packaging/errata.html
Re: Screen Orientation Status
On April 3, 2014 at 4:38:41 PM, Mounir Lamouri (mou...@lamouri.fr) wrote: Test suite: None yet. No test suite coordinator at the moment. I can create the test suite. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [April2014Meeting] Building an Issue and Bug focused agenda
On April 2, 2014 at 6:51:06 AM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: * Manifest; led by Marcos; high priority issues, bugs, etc. High-priority v1: * orientation hinting * Implementer interest * should we freeze v1, go to LC? V2 feature set: * url scope * service workers * what else? Repo: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/ Issues: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues -- Marcos Caceres
Re: Should events be preferably sent to the Window or the nearest object?
On March 20, 2014 at 12:58:44 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. (jackalm...@gmail.com) wrote: Agreed. The exact target isn't very important here, and so being consistent with legacy event firing for the same system is probably a good idea. Agree. Let's go with consistency, even though it feels a bit weird.
Re: [screen-orientation] Remove the ability to lock to multiple orientations?
On March 14, 2014 at 9:58:59 AM, Mounir Lamouri (mou...@lamouri.fr) wrote: On Fri, 14 Mar 2014, at 16:09, Jonas Sicking wrote: However it does mean that we need to also have a way to define that orientation should be completely unlocked. This is needed since the manifest spec allows overriding the default unlocked orientation. I.e. it should be possible to use the manifest to say that an app should be in portrait mode, but then allow a page to temporarily override that to allow any orientation. Good point. I meant to mention that in the email but obviously forgot. I was wondering between ‘any’, ‘all' or 'sensor' (or 'sensor-all'? :)). `any` should be fine.
Re: Browser search API
On March 12, 2014 at 7:16:53 PM, Mitar (mmi...@gmail.com) wrote: Hi! There was no reply. :-( It usually takes a bit of time for Hixie to get around to all the emails (the volume of email on the WHATWG list + other priorities slow things down - but I’ve never seen him not respond to a proposal). Give him a few more weeks. If you don’t hear back by the end of the month you can try to ping him directly. Mitar On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Sunday, February 23, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Mitar wrote: Hi! After a bit of delay, I posted a followup to the WHATWG mailing list: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2014-February/042100.html Looks great, Mitar. I'm sure Hixie and folks at the WHATWG will respond soon. -- Marcos Caceres -- http://mitar.tnode.com/ https://twitter.com/mitar_m
Re: [push-api] Dependency on System Messages
On March 13, 2014 at 2:33:08 PM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: On 3/13/14 1:52 PM, ext Mounir Lamouri wrote: System Messages are definitely abandoned, I do not think any specification should use them. Even in SysApps, we started working on something called Event Pages (similar to what Chrome Apps does) before Service Worker took off. Given this, seems like the runtime ED and TR should be updated accordingly. I’ll trash the ED’s content. But the SysApps WG needs to make this into a Note.
Re: Browser search API
On Sunday, February 23, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Mitar wrote: Hi! After a bit of delay, I posted a followup to the WHATWG mailing list: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2014-February/042100.html Looks great, Mitar. I'm sure Hixie and folks at the WHATWG will respond soon. -- Marcos Caceres
[Manifest] Study on installable web apps
to always go back seems critical to make this class of web application usable by the general public. * Do not expect, or encourage, developers to create single page applications. Some will, but they will likely do it wrong. Most everyone won't: it's too hard, unnecessary, and evidently error prone. * Don't expect applications will have good metadata or icons. * Automatically generated metadata and template engines will likely be an issue. A lot of sites don't seem to test (or might not even know) that their websites supports running as standalone. * To avoid the issue of UA-specific pop-up banners, a standard way to install an application is needed: either through and API and/or some declarative means. * It needs to be possible to be able to jump between web apps and native apps without requiring the developers to constantly save state. That is, leaving a standalone web application should work the same as jumping from one browser tab to another in a desktop browser. HTH, Marcos [1] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/blob/gh-pages/ios_standalone/README.md -- Marcos Caceres
Re: WebKit interest in ServiceWorkers (was Re: [manifest] Utility of bookmarking to home screen, was V1 ready for wider review)
On Monday, February 17, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: BTW, I noticed there is no Bugzilla component for Service Workers so I will ask Mike Smith to create one). I think they bug tracker on GH is being used instead. It's already very active and it would be a shame to have to move to Bugzilla.
Re: [manifest] Utility of bookmarking to home screen, was V1 ready for wider review
On Sunday, February 16, 2014, Alex Russell slightly...@google.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.comjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','w...@marcosc.com'); wrote: tl;dr: I strongly agree (and data below shows) that installable web apps without offline capabilities are essentially useless. Things currently specified in the manifest are supposed to help make these apps less useless (as I said in the original email, they by no means give us the dream of installable web apps, just one little step closer) - even if we had SW tomorrow, we would still need orientation, display mode, start URL, etc. So yes, SW and manifest will converge... questions for us to decide on is when? And if appcache can see us through this transitional period to having SW support in browsers? I believe we can initially standardize a limited set of functionality, while we continue to wait for SW to come into fruition which could take another year or two. SW will becoming to chrome ASAP. We're actively implementing. Jonas or Nikhil can probably provide more Mozilla context. I'm also interested in the WebKit and Microsoft context. I just don't know who to ask there. Have their been any public signals of their level of interest in SW? My personal view is that isn't not a good user experience to offer the affordance if the resulting system can't be trusted. That is to say, if we plow on with V1 without a (required) offline story, I'm not sure what we've really won. Happy for this to go to LC, but wouldn't recommend that Chrome For Android implement. I think this is good feedback. I'm happy to add (or for you to add;)) SW support to the manifest format. At least from Moz perspective it's fine as we are doing SW already. Anyone object to adding SW support to V1 of the manifest spec? Anything else that should be prioritized for V1? On Saturday, February 15, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Alex Russell wrote: I further think that the marginal utility in bookmarking something to the homescreen (sorry, yes, I'm focusing on mobile first) is low if it doesn't have a Service Worker / Appcache associated. Although I've not published this research yet, this is strongly backed by evidence. Nearly all applications in the top 78,000 websites that opt. into being standalone applications via apple-mobile-web-app-capable do not, in fact, work as standalone applications. If anyone is interested to try this for themselves, here is the raw dataset listing all the sites [1] - you will need an iPhone to test them. The data set is from Oct. 2013, but should still be relevant. Just pick some at random and add to homescreen; it makes for depressing viewing. There are a few exceptions (listed below) - but those are the exceptions, not the rule. It's strictly second-class-citizen territory to have web bookmarks that routinely don't do anything meaningful when offline. Yes, but there are a number of factors that contribute to this: not just offline (e.g., flexbox support is still fairly limited, dev tools still suck, cross-browser is a nightmare, even how navigation works differs across UAs!, limited orientation-locking support, etc.). However, to your point the data we have shows that about 50 sites in the top 78K declare an appcache [2], while there are 1163 sites that declare apple-mobile-web-app-capable. So yeah, appcache, as we all know, is a bit of a failure. Some of the sites that declare it actually have it commented out... like they tried it and just gave up. Interestingly, only 10 sites in the dataset are both capable of running standalone AND declare offline: 1. forecast.io 2. timer-tab.com 3. capitalone.com 4. rachaelrayshow.com 5. delicious.com 6. forbesmiddleeast.com 7. shopfato.com.br 8. ptable.com 9 authenticjobs.com 10. swedenabroad.com So, yeah... 10 / 1163 = 0.0085... or, :_(. Anyway... do you think it's ok for us to just standardize the limited things in the manifest? We could have those at LC like in 2 weeks and then spin up V2 to have convergence with SW. Better still, the SW spec can just specify how it wants to work with manifests. [1] https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7419589 [2] https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/9018819 -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [manifest] orientation member
On Monday, January 27, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: Ok, makes sense. So my counter questions are: 1. Could we get away without using generic media queries and instead only allow switching on screen size height and/or width? Probably - need to check if there is anything else on which this decision would be made. This is something we will need to look into. 2. Could we get away with just using static orientations in v1? I.e. punt using different orientations for mobile/tablet until v2 of the manifest? Personally, I think so. That's currently what is in the spec [1]. [1] http://w3c.github.io/manifest/#default_orientation-member
[manifest] V1 ready for wider review
The editors of the [manifest] spec have now closed all substantive issues for v1. The spec defines the following: * A link relationship for manifests (so they can be used with link rel=manifest). * A standard file name for a manifest resource (/.well-known/manifest.json). Works the same as /favicon.ico for when link rel=manifest is missing. * The ability to point to a start-url. * Basic screen orientation hinting for when launching a web app. * Launch the app in different display modes: fullscreen, minimal-ui, open in browser, etc. * A way of for scripts to check if the application was launched from a bookmark (i.e., similar to Safari's navigator.standalone). * requestBookmark(), which is a way for a top-level document to request it be bookmarked by the user. To not piss-off users, requires explicit user action to actually work. Expect buttoninstall my app/button everywhere on the Web now :) If you are wondering where some missing feature is, it's probably slated for [v2]. The reason v1 is so small is that it's all we could get agreement on amongst implementers (it's a small set, but it's a good set to kick things off and get us moving... and it's a small spec, so easy to quickly read over). We would appreciate your feedback on this set of features - please file [bugs] on GitHub. We know it doesn't fully realize *the dream* of installable web apps - but it gets us a few steps closer. If we don't get any significant objections, we will request to transition to LC in a week or so. [manifest] http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ [v2] see goals for v2, https://github.com/w3c/manifest#goals-for-v2-and-beyond [bugs] https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues -- Marcos Caceres
[manifest] name and icons, was Re: [manifest] V1 ready for wider review
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 at 1:21 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote: I still think that leaving out name and icons from a manifest about bookmarks is a big mistake. I just made my case here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2014Feb/0039.html I'll reply separately. Basically I think we need to make the manifest more self sufficient. I think that we're getting Ruby's postulate the wrong way around by making the file that describes the bookmark not contain all the data about the bookmark. Instead the two most important pieces about the bookmark, name and icons, will live in a completely separate HTML file, often with no way to find yourself from the manifest to that separate HTML file. I still think that icons and name are outside the scope of V1 - but I've added them to V2. The whole manifest and icon updating mechanism you describe in your email to the TAG adds a bunch of complexity (yes, we need to deal with it eventually as it's an extremely valid use case - but we can defer it to HTML at this moment and for a few months... even if UAs don't do updating of icons and name from HTML). I still hold that we should get the most critical and least controversial functionality (display mode, default-orientation, and start-url) standardized before we do the other stuff. It also gives a chance for UA's to catch up and implement HTML's application-name and link rel=icon properly. UAs are going to need to support those HTML features to work with apps that don't make use of manifests. And apps the use manifests will work just fine till we add proper support for name and icons into the manifest - all web apps will need to include application-name and link rel=icon (as well as a bunch of proprietary stuff!) to target todays and yesterdays UAs regardless. So, IMHO, there is not much to be won by putting name and icons into V1 for implementers or for developers at this moment. I would go as far as to say that it's initially harmful to have name and icon in V1 because it discourages UAs from fixing their support for application-name and link rel=icon. Having the fallback behavior explicitly tested in V1 of the manifest may help improve support for those features of HTML. So, I'm not saying let's never do name and icon - I'm saying let just do the easy stuff we have some agreement on first.
CFCs for ordinary drafts, was CFC for Re: W3C XHR, was Re: [admin] Draft of updated charter available for review
Hi Art, I'm wondering if we can change the group's work mode to not requiring CFCs for ordinary working drafts? Unless I'm not getting something, they seem to add an unnecessary delay to getting stuff published. Kind regards, Marcos -- Marcos Caceres On Monday, January 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Jungkee Song wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 8:22 PM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com (mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: On 1/23/14 8:48 PM, ext Jungkee Song wrote: I understand your concern. Indeed, we editors should have made it clearer providing updates on the status and more importantly a new TR. The goal of the snapshot version of the spec is clear. It aims to standardize all widely implemented parts of the spec that are compatibly supported across major implementations in a *timely* manner. Hence the number one to-do is to enhance the pass ratio of the test suite [1] by interacting with the implementors. We'd planned to publish LC with the Level 1 spec [2] in a near-term after the last TPAC but the changing publication policy recommends for us to take more conservative approach in publishing LC. That said, it seems necessary for us to publish a WD with [2] for now before we'll get ready with the test results good enough for publishing LC. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks for the update Jungkee! I think your plan (to publish a WD now that will replace the 2012 WD and to continue to work toward a LC that is broadly and compatibly implemented) is good. Please let me know when you want me to start a CfC for the WD. We editors agreed with requesting a CfC to publish [2] as a WD. I'll request it as soon as I'm ready with a WD-ready version. Thanks, Jungkee -Thanks, Art [1] http://jungkees.github.io/XMLHttpRequest-test/ [2] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/xhr-1/Overview.html -- Jungkee Song
Re: W3C XHR, was Re: [admin] Draft of updated charter available for review
On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 1:48 AM, Jungkee Song wrote: To be clear: I’m concerned that the last time the spec on TR was updated was in 2012. That seems like a big failure to me, specially as when you google for the spec, the on the TR comes up first. This means that most people are looking at a grossly outdated spec if they click on the first link. I understand your concern. Indeed, we editors should have made it clearer providing updates on the status and more importantly a new TR. The goal of the snapshot version of the spec is clear. It aims to standardize all widely implemented parts of the spec that are compatibly supported across major implementations in a *timely* manner. Hence the number one to-do is to enhance the pass ratio of the test suite [1] by interacting with the implementors. We'd planned to publish LC with the Level 1 spec [2] in a near-term after the last TPAC but the changing publication policy recommends for us to take more conservative approach in publishing LC. That said, it seems necessary for us to publish a WD with [2] for now before we'll get ready with the test results good enough for publishing LC. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks Jungkee for the update - looking forward to seeing an updated WD on TR soon. It's good to see the progress in the test suite and that you guys have been following up there with the various browser vendors.
W3C XHR, was Re: [admin] Draft of updated charter available for review
On Thursday, January 23, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: I don't recall any discussions about stopping the current work, although I think it would be useful if the group's XHR Editors would provide a short status and plan. It would indeed be good. However, it would also be good to have a broader discussion about what we do about the specs that have move to the WHATWG (unless we already did that and I missed it). This whole snapshot thing doesn’t feel like it’s working IMO.
Re: W3C XHR, was Re: [admin] Draft of updated charter available for review
On Thursday, January 23, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Thursday, January 23, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: I don't recall any discussions about stopping the current work, although I think it would be useful if the group's XHR Editors would provide a short status and plan. It would indeed be good. However, it would also be good to have a broader discussion about what we do about the specs that have move to the WHATWG (unless we already did that and I missed it). This whole snapshot thing doesn’t feel like it’s working IMO. To be clear: I’m concerned that the last time the spec on TR was updated was in 2012. That seems like a big failure to me, specially as when you google for the spec, the on the TR comes up first. This means that most people are looking at a grossly outdated spec if they click on the first link.
Re: [admin] Draft of updated charter available for review
Quick notes, questions Is File API: Directories and System dead? Looks kinda dead (last updated 07 March 2012). Streams should not be part of File - it's a generic API for any data. UI Events is linked to the wrong place. Drop the currently not supported by web standards. from Gamepad description... as it's a bit of an oxymoron to have a standard for a standard that's not supported as a standard... standard :) Ooohhh! WebApps staking a claim over Service Workers! Nice :) URL API should point to http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ Can we please put an end to this whole snapshot nonsense: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html Maybe drop: public-web-inte...@w3.org (archive) for discussion of the Web Intents specification -- Marcos Caceres On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: Hi All, Although WebApps' current charter [Charter] does not expire until the end of May, since it can take a while to agree on a new charter (especially if new deliverables are proposed), I created a Draft [Draft] today. A diff of the current charter vs. the draft is available at [Diff]. My intent was to reflect the current state of WebApps' work and I don't think there are any major surprises. Comments (as well as PRs) are welcome, especially if anyone has any deliverables to propose. -Thanks, ArtB [Charter] http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/Overview.html [Draft] http://afbarstow.github.io/WebApps/charter.html [Diff] http://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2012%2Fwebapps%2Fcharter%2FOverview.htmldoc2=http%3A%2F%2Fafbarstow.github.io%2FWebApps%2Fcharter.html
Re: [manifest] orientation member
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:26 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote: 3On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Mounir Lamouri mou...@lamouri.fr (mailto:mou...@lamouri.fr) wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013, at 15:48, Jonas Sicking wrote: My impression has been that the vast majority of apps only need a single orientation that is independent of media-query results. If that's the case, then I think the above is too complicated. I.e. if that is the common case, then we should support: orientation: [landscape], or maybe even orientation: landscape, I definitely agree with that. Though, we should allow both syntaxes (array and string). If we want a more complex system later, we could move to that. For the moment, I think we should keep it simple. Also, when comparing how applications handle landscape/portrait, it is worth considering how common/easy it is to write responsive UI on the platform. iOS has a very limited number of device sizes so I am not really surprised that iOS applications try to optimize for some sizes (thus arbitrary ignore some others). Is that common on Android? Would that be common using Web applications? I too am curious what the use cases are for switching orientation based on screen size is. If your app runs fine in both orientations, then why lock the orientation at all? Yes, of course when one presents it like that (if it works on both, why lock it?) it seems to makes sense: but it’s overly simplistic: It’s only in the opposite case (on smaller devices/phones, single locked orientation makes more sense)… i.e., this is a “mobile first” design issue - where even though it “works” in landscape, the experience is so sub-optimal for some application types that it’s not worth optimizing/designing for. However, the Web case may be unique, in that installed applications are bookmarked from browsers, which generally support portrait and landscape on phones and anything bigger. You can see that the landscape experience is sub-optimal if you just play around with apps on your mobile phone that are not games. With the exceptions of a few apps (e.g., calculator on iPhone, which turns into a scientific calculator when rotated; and the Stocks app - which shows a graph view when rotated to landscape), I’m confident that you will see that even the ones that support rotation are not particularly useful in landscape mode (i.e., are more natural to use in portrait - particularly web applications). Games are always the exception, as they really do require landscape to support for continuos interaction (i.e., because the user’s fingers are on the screen so would block too much of the viewport). Also, on phones, starting applications is generally done in portrait mode (at least on iPhone, Android, and FxOS) - so most apps are expecting to be launched and primarily used in portrait. But that’s not the case on tablets (particularly for applications that are both created for both phones and tablets) - where it’s natural to hold the device in any orientation. This leads to the problem: 1. an application may work best as portrait on a phone, but has to work on any orientation on tablet. Forcing a single orientation would only be useful for games - all other application types would need to support any (forcing developers to have to design for landscape on small devices when they don’t have to in their native counterparts - or worst, they have to display a “rotate your phone portrait” message to users, as some apps already do - e.g., forecast.io displays advertising for a future product when rotated to landscape). 2. Forcing an application on a table into portrait leads to a bad user experience (because a percentage of users will be unnecessarily forced to rotate their device to portrait). So I don’t imagine anyone will use this, unless they are using UA/device sniffing, which would show that the solution is broken. I thought that the main use case was for something like a video player or a game that wanted to always be in landscape mode was the main use case? No - specially the video use case is not really valid because videos will usually just enter full screen mode and allow any orientation once they start playing (think of them as an application within an application). Again, the 300+ odd apps we looked at paints a different picture: small device, then single orientation (generally portrait primary) - unless it’s a game. Tablet device, free to rotate to any orientation - tablet applications that lock to an orientation are annoying in that they are unnatural to use (unless it’s a game, of course). We could assume that any orientation be supported on any device, but this means we (browsers) are putting developers in a bad situation again of not having the freedom to control how their applications are displayed on different device types. This can lead to a degraded user experience,
Re: [manifest] orientation member
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013, at 15:48, Jonas Sicking wrote: My impression has been that the vast majority of apps only need a single orientation that is independent of media-query results. If that's the case, then I think the above is too complicated. I.e. if that is the common case, then we should support: orientation: [landscape], or maybe even orientation: landscape, I definitely agree with that. Though, we should allow both syntaxes (array and string). I don’t like the idea of supporting two types, but can live with it. My preference is just having an array, and having unknown values ignored - at least that gives us some kind of extensibility mechanism. If we want a more complex system later, we could move to that. As above - so long as whatever we come up with is somewhat future proof. For the moment, I think we should keep it simple. Also, when comparing how applications handle landscape/portrait, it is worth considering how common/easy it is to write responsive UI on the platform. It’s only technically easy. Design and UX wise it’s actually really hard in practice - and doing it cross platform/cross device is even harder because support for layout application technology remains in its infancy (i.e., Flexbox support is really lacking on mobile, and who knows how long that situation will continue for). In addition, the data we are seeing from applications that declare apple-mobile-webapp-capable show that developers are not doing this. Or, worst case, when apps are being rotated, they have to display a “rotate your phone the other way” message. iOS has a very limited number of device sizes so I am not really surprised that iOS applications try to optimize for some sizes (thus arbitrary ignore some others). Is that common on Android? Yes, it appears to be common on Android too. Would that be common using Web applications? Web apps don’t really have a choice. But you can try out your favorite apps on a phone in landscape move and see how usable they are: they may be usable (and some actually do provide a little adaptability - like BBC news), but it’s probably just coincidental that they work that was and not the way you would normally use them (unless its’ a game, of course). In any case, as you suggest, let’s build this up incrementally - but let’s make sure that we have a migratory path to give developers a choice to better control orientation.
Re: [manifest] orientation member
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Scott Wilson wrote: Hmm. Does this take us back to viewmodes [1]? For example you also have the ability on Windows Phone to have the live tiles view, with primary and secondary tiles, and both square and wide tiles... I thought it did, but I don’t think it does… not yet anyway - but we are seeing a lot of overlap in the discussion (“windowed”, “fullscreen” for now). Also it may be necessary to consider where apps are intended not to take over the device, but as additional content within another platform, e.g.: OpenSocial has 'canvas', 'profile' views, etc. However I think OpenSocial is heading towards the option of just using adaptive CSS, along with contextual metadata from the container platform via AJAX. That might work better, specially if we ever get @viewport support in browsers. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/view-mode/
Re: Regarding: Making the W3C Web SQL Database Specification Active
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 at 3:29 AM, Shane Harrelson wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but would https://code.google.com/p/csharp-sqlite/ count as an independent implementation of the SQLite SQL syntax? Using an unmaintained project as a ways of advancing as specification would kinda defeat the point of standardization of browser technology. To benefit the web, the only independent implementations that would actually matter would need to be browser-based. So no, it would not count (not unless we want to really dilute how a specification becomes a W3C standard). -- Marcos Caceres
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: The Editors would appreciate if people take a look and see if you agree with the feature set. What I think we should have is something like: chrome: { back: true } If the UA doesn't support any of the properties in the chrome section, then the UA should be required to not launch the app in standalone mode. Captured here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/117 snip I also think the dont-share-cookies-and-stuff thing needs more work before it's ready for inclusion. So might be better to drop that for FPWD. But I'm fine with keeping it in for now too and dropping it if we can't solidify it. This is has been removed from the spec.
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Monday, December 9, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013, at 10:03, Marcos Caceres wrote: From the research we’ve done, none of the proprietary solutions currently do this. I’ve added this as a feature request [1] so we can see how much interest there is. I think it is exaggerated to say that pages rely on the user seeing the page title. I tend to agree (particularly for apps that have been added to the home screen). Apps that want to display their own name (e.g., Google’s Authenticator app on iOS does this) can do that with HTML. Having said that, there are other contexts where showing the title makes sense (in a task switcher - or when organizing tabs). But that’s generally handled by the OS. It is very uncommon to be able to read more than a couple of words and depending on your browser/system you might not even see the page title at all (the case for me because I rarely have less than a dozen tabs open). I think the back button and reload buttons might be critical to be able to run some apps while the page title is simply a nice to have. Yeah, I think I’m reaching the same conclusion. I’ll keep looking for other examples and document them here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/89
Re: [manifest] HTTP-based solution for loading manifests
On Wednesday, December 11, 2013, Julian Reschke wrote: On 2013-12-11 13:13, Mounir Lamouri wrote: On Wed, Dec 11, 2013, at 14:48, Marcos Caceres wrote: Would any potential implementer consider supporting a HTTP based solution to loading manifests? It seems quite premature to discuss a HTTP based solution to advertise a manifest. Even if it happens to be something developers ask for, we will anyway need to provide a link solution. It seems that the best course of actions we could take here is to implement the manifest feature using link and gather developer feedback to evaluate that alternative. If you define a way using link, the alternative approach using the Link: header field essentially comes for free. Mark seems to imply otherwise: for example, Mark says that [Link:] was never specified to be used with the stylesheet relation. https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/98#issuecomment-30293586 If that's the case, then neither would manifest? I also thought Link: was more or less generic. I should read the spec in detail. ... Best regards, Julian
[manifest] HTTP-based solution for loading manifests
Would any potential implementer consider supporting a HTTP based solution to loading manifests? The rationale being: For manifests it is much more commonly going to be the case that there's existing content that people want to add a manifest to. Doing that by editing each and every HTML file or HTML-outputting server side script seems likely to in many cases be much harder than adding a config setting [on the server] that adds a link header. It would mean using something like the HTTP `Link:` header defined in [RCF5988] or a new HTTP header like `Manifest:`. So, something like the following in the case of [1]: Link: /manifest.json; rel=manifest Or the following in the case of a new header: Manifest: /manifest Please see the following for discussion: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/98 [RFC5988] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988 -- Marcos Caceres
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
Hi Rob, On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Rob Manson wrote: That's a great overview! There's 2 points I think haven't fully been addressed. 1. Section 8. Navigation Much of this work (and HTML5 in general) is about bringing the Web Platform up to being equal with native apps. But one thing that the Web does that native apps can't do is deep linking (ignoring the fustercluck of intents). I think it would provide a significant advantage if it was also possible to deep link into installed web apps. I understand this is very complex and I'm not proposing any solution right now. But if we don't include this then we are in effect cutting web applications down to the level of native apps instead of leaping ahead of them. Use Case: Social sharing User A and User B both have the same web app installed on the devices they are using. User A finds a resource they like inside the app and decide to share this from within the app through one of their social networks. User B sees this link in their social feed and taps on it. Since User B also has this web app installed it would be nice to be able to open that resource directly within the installed app. Otherwise User X's browser would just open it like a normal web resource. This can also be relevant for the same user using the same web app across multiple devices. NOTE: This is one of the key drivers we have found for building business cases of Web instead of Native. Filed bug to investigate: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/30 2. Section 6. Start page This is lightly touched on and slightly related to the point above, but the common experience especially on iOS is that even when you background an installed app and then foreground it again it reloads the entire state. This effectively breaks the UX and makes this mode almost unusable. It's definitely possible to use localStorage, etc. to work around this but the UX is horrible. Allowing installed apps to persist their resources and loaded state across background/foreground (and ideally even launches) would be a massive step forward. Perhaps naming this a First use page would help clarify this focus? Agree. This is really evident in iOS at least. Will also investigate if it’s something devs should be dealing with or an OS level thing. At least on iOS, it seems like it’s an OS level thing, as native apps don’t have this problem - you can switch back and force between them (unless they take up massive amounts of RAM, like games… in which case iOS seems to shut down apps as you swap from one to another). Firefox OS seems to fake it by taking a screenshot when the app boots up, which is then used in the task switcher. Tracking this here: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/31
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: On Wed, Nov 27, 2013, at 8:02, Marcos Caceres wrote: Over the last few weeks, a few of us folks in the Web Mob IG have been investigating the use cases and requirements for bookmarking web apps to home screen. The output of that research is this living document: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/ That (ongoing) research is helping to inform the manifest spec. A bunch of us have been working together on IRC, twitter, etc. on a new version of the manifest spec: http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ The Editors would appreciate if people take a look and see if you agree with the feature set. The feature set sounds pretty good. I would gladly discuss more why some properties are defined and how some others are but the general gist sounds fine. Maybe some properties should be removed to make things go faster. For example, what's the current support to implement 'mode' and 'dont-share-cookies-and-stuff'? Probably not much… but it’s a thing I want to have in the FPWD for IPR reasons. Will remove it from the living doc till we sort out what it means and how it works. Filed bug for removal: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/105
Re: inline declarative manifest, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
More comments inline, but I’ve started running a developer survey here about the proposed solutions: https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977 See also: https://twitter.com/marcosc/status/408150324629630976 Some really great feedback from the dev community on twitter! Please take a look. On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Charles McCathie Nevile wrote: Having said that, there are issues also with navigating installed web apps. The phonegap guys have a wealth of experience to share here, though they are proponents of single page apps to overcome limitations in the Web platform (e.g., avoiding the flash of white when loading another web page when navigating). Anyway, we can deal with those issues later - but just want to be clear about what we’ve seen in the dataset we’ve been looking at in WebMob and what the forthcoming issues are going to be if this goes mainstream. Looking forward to you publishing that data. Is there a simple pointer for those of us who haven't been following webmob closely so we can start from somewhere better than all of webmob? The report is here: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/ The data is from webdevdata.org (a W3C community group a few of us set up to gather this kind of data - you should join!:)) I really don’t like this - specially messy with the single quote/double quote thing which is one screws it up is a huge pain in the as to debug. Structured content really feels like it should be in an element. Yes, but I wonder how big a real problem that is. I happen to use a bare-bones version of vi that doesn't balance parentheses, quotes, etc, but I believe that shows I am a very strange person. As far as I know, debugging this kind of error semi-automatically is actually pretty trivial, and common. It might not be a huge problem because I’m trying my hardest to keep the structure flat. It becomes a nightmare pretty quickly once things start nesting. The lack of commenting and not being forgiving about trailing commas doesn’t help, etc. It also feels crapy that one has to special case this one attribute to use single quotes. I’ll bounce it to HTMLs people and see what they say. From an authoring perspective I don't think the verbosity is a big issue, and the two options *seem* about equivalent in cognitive load - switching elements is odd but people are clearly used to doing it for style, and setting a type attribute in a script element compared to using link/meta is the same thing. True. That’s a good point. Which makes the big question about taste in syntax (unless there is some real implementation or web-compat issue). So I expect it to be the hardest one of all to solve :) I’m being told in IRC that there might be CSP implications with either of the solutions that I need to investigate.
Re: Request for feedback: Streams API
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Arthur Barstow wrote: Thanks for the update Feras. Re getting `wide review` of the latest [ED], which groups, lists and individuals should be asked to review the spec? In IRC just now, jgraham mentioned TC39, WHATWG and Domenic. Would someone please ask these two groups to review the latest ED? Aymeric - would you please ask the WebRTC list(s) to review the latest ED or provide the list name(s) and I'll ask them. It’s still a big concern that there are two competing proposals. We can just “let the market sort it out”, but I think it would be best if there was a single spec with all the folks interested in this area working together. How can we work towards that?
inline declarative manifest, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:27 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote: I also think that we need a way to put the manifest in-line in the main document. In part, technologies tend to be a lot easier to understand if you can create a single-file demo. In part, for small simple apps, having to separate the manifest into a separate file could be annoying and might drive people to stick to the existing meta-tags. Would it suffice to use the API? It’s much simpler than trying to write out JSON by hand and wouldn’t require us to create any new special script type, etc. script if(“requestBookmark” in navigator){ var appDetails = {name: “Awesome app!”, mode: “standalone”}; navigator.requestBookmark(appDetails).then(happy,sad); } /script I don't think so. That wouldn't let search engines find it. It also wouldn't let us hook it up to the bookmark menu unless the page always calls requestBookmark very early in the page load sequence at all times. Right, but the search engine use case is what link rel=“manifest” href=“foo.json is for. Loading of manifest data is then prioritized by the UA till it’s needed (i.e., till the user actually takes some action to “bookmark to homescreen”) - then the right icons, etc. would be d/l presumedly. So, the way I’ve been viewing this is that API provides a way to customize the externalized JSON metadata by overriding values - so it tries to cleanly abstract the idea of application metadata from the JSON itself by using as much information from the document and the JSON as is available. I'd rather stick the manifest as metadata in the markup and make requestBookmark take no arguments. This would already be supported, in that once the content of the link element is loaded: script var installButton = $(“#installbutton”); //wait for it to load $(“link[rel=manifest]”).on(“load”, (e) = installButton.enable()); //use the metadata available to the document installButton.on(“click”, (e) = navigator.requestBookmark()); /script If the load fails for whatever reason, then the developer could provide fallback either in the form of meta tags and/or by passing the custom manifest object. If you and others still don’t think the above meets the use cases, then I’d be ok to introduce something like: script type=“manifest” { … metadata … } /script But need to talk to HTML folks about what the right thing to do here is (with regards to legacy UAs, not breaking parsing, etc.). -- Marcos Caceres
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Charles McCathie Nevile wrote: On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:27:15 +0100, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc (mailto:jo...@sicking.cc) wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: What I think we should have is something like: chrome: { back: true } Yep, this is currently captured here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/76 Those of us working on this still need to investigate FxOS a bit more to see what people are using in practice and why (e.g., how much granularity do we really need? to the button level “forward”/“back, or can we just say “navigation-bar”, etc.). Captured here: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/17 Simply wanting *just* the back/forward buttons has been common. I could imagine apps relying on the reload button as well. Yes. Especially for things that come off the web (as opposed to packaged apps). I have not heard of, but I could imagine, apps wanting to rely in the title of the page being displayed. Quite possibly [use case snipped] From the research we’ve done, none of the proprietary solutions currently do this. I’ve added this as a feature request [1] so we can see how much interest there is. BTW, the closest I’ve seen to this was in Chrome Beta for Android. Before installable apps were removed, it showed the URL automatically if the applications changed origin during navigation. It’s was a nice security feature. You can see picture of it here: https://developers.google.com/chrome/mobile/images/home_navigate.png The url bar is a very common separate UI piece on most platforms. However it's unclear how a URL bar would work in a standalone UI. Would the user be able to type any URL while still remaining in within the standalone UI? Seems surprising if we imagine that the standalone UI uses the icon of the app. Though we could always open any typed URL in the default browser. Anyway, staying away from url-bar seems safer for now. Yes. In-apge Search is something that might also be useful within an app - especially if you can find out it is happening and respond to it intelligently if the app hides things by default. I will spin up a separate thread for this. [1] https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/89
in-page search, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Charles McCathie Nevile wrote: Yes. In-apge Search is something that might also be useful within an app - especially if you can find out it is happening and respond to it intelligently if the app hides things by default. The ability to do this is useful, but I wonder if it’s kinda context specific. Just some very lose thoughts off the top off my head: * no (mobile) native application platform let’s you do this, AFAIK (just a fact - not a judgment or a good/bad thing). * hardly any mobile browser currently supports this (which sucks, IMO). * searching in page is not something that is usually shown by default: you have to press ctrl-f on most browsers to bring up in-page search. * apps might only want specific runs of text (a group of elements) to be searchable… maybe this is a HTML feature section searchable? So I guess the option, if we were to support this, would be something like “searchable”. Then the UA can work out the best way to present show the search box (e.g., long press - “Search on this screen”). -- Marcos Caceres
Re: in-page search, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Charles McCathie Nevile wrote: Yes. In-apge Search is something that might also be useful within an app - especially if you can find out it is happening and respond to it intelligently if the app hides things by default. The ability to do this is useful, but I wonder if it’s kinda context specific. Just some very lose thoughts off the top off my head: * no (mobile) native application platform let’s you do this, AFAIK (just a fact - not a judgment or a good/bad thing). * hardly any mobile browser currently supports this (which sucks, IMO). * searching in page is not something that is usually shown by default: you have to press ctrl-f on most browsers to bring up in-page search. * apps might only want specific runs of text (a group of elements) to be searchable… maybe this is a HTML feature section searchable? So I guess the option, if we were to support this, would be something like “searchable”. Then the UA can work out the best way to present show the search box (e.g., long press - “Search on this screen”). Tracked by: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/90
Re: inline declarative manifest, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
tl;dr - a few counter points for consideration, but I’m generally ok with adding both the declarative inline alternative and with dropping the arguments on the API in V1. For the declarative solution, we would drop using link in favor of script entirely. On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote: We currently have both script.../script and script src=..., as well as both style.../style and style src. A big reason we have both is for author convenience. I thought this was because script and style are “this page’s script and style” (i.e., the scope is very specific). This is different to the manifest, which is “this loosely grouped set of navigable resources forms a web-app”. Also, appcache is a really good counter example of something that doesn’t do this… oh.. wait :) If you have a script or CSS resource that is shared between lots of pages then it's convenient to allow the script/CSS to live in an external file such that you can just change it once to have the change applied to everyone that links to it. But if you have a script/CSS which is very specific to a single page, then it's very annoying to have to create a separate file that lives side-by-side with your HTML file and whenever you make a change to your HTML which requires a change in the script/CSS also open and change the external file. It also means that if you move/backup/email your HTML, you have to remember to include the script/CSS file. Hence we allow script/CSS to live inline inside the HTML. Sure, I can sympathize with that, but the trend and best practice is still not to include things inline (e.g., as per CSP). I’m not saying we shouldn’t allow it - just sayin’ its kinda crappy because it encourages bad development practices (leading to single page apps, etc.). There are performance benefits to allowing both as well. With an external script/CSS the script/CSS can be cached and not have to be downloaded with every HTML file that uses them. But if only a single HTML file uses the script/CSS then the extra network roundtrip involved with fetching another resource can be saved by including the script/CSS inline. Right, but HTTP2 is supposed to erode those differences. Also, in many cases it’s not really necessary to download the manifest at all (because the user may not be on the page long enough to make a decision about bookmarking), so it’s wasted bytes to include them. It seems to me that the same arguments applies to metadata such as what's included in the manifest. Yes. If you have a big app consisting of multiple HTML files then having them all link to an external manifest makes a lot of sense. That way you only need to change a single location when you want to change something and the risk of the different pages of your app getting out-of-sync is reduced. However if your app is very simple and just consists of a single HTML page, then forcing that HTML to link to an external resource is just annoying for the developer. By allowing the manifest to live inside the HTML it makes maintaining the manifest easier and the developer is less likely to forget to do so. This also simplifies creating tutorials and filing bugs since you can create single-file examples. Does this explain the use case better? Absolutely. I personally think there are better ways of dealing with these things, but I’m certainly not adverse to including this. I don't have a strong opinion on if we should use script type=manifest{ ... }/script, This one is the most sane, IMO. There is precedence for this on the Web. meta name=manifest content={ ... }, link rel=manifest content={ ... }, I think developers will object to the above. If src-n was an abomination to some, then I can’t imagine the above being well received. manifest{ ... }/manifest This wouldn’t work… not in the head, at least as it would auto close head so it gets rendered in legacy browsers. See livedomviewer here: http://tinyurl.com/knbhe3s or something else. Like you said, I think it's a conversation we need to have with the HTML people. I’ll investigate a bit more. I’ve added a bug here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/91 I’ll just note that having link rel=manifest and script type manifest would kinda suck… if we can just have: * script type=“application/manifest+json” src=“manifest.json”/script * script type=“application/manifest+json”{}/script that would be great. That would be great. Reading the HTML spec, I think we can. As for the API, I generally don't like the idea of having a script API which allows passing a full manifest constructed in JS to the UA as part of the API. That solution discourages finding manifests using search engines which effectively hides critical metadata. While I don't want to *force* developers to expose metadata to search engines, I want to try to avoid that happening accidentally since this metadata seems
Re: inline declarative manifest, was Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: I’m not saying we shouldn’t allow it - just sayin’ its kinda crappy because it encourages bad development practices (leading to single page apps, etc.). For simple apps I don't see anything wrong with single-page. I'd rather spend time on making multi-page experiences good so that authors don't avoid it, than try to force it. I.e. the thing that I think is bad practices is when developers that have multi-page UIs use excessively complicated solutions to create a single-page implementation. We should improve the web so that they don't have to. I don't think single-page apps is something that is inherently bad. Sorry, I should have clarified this a bit more. This isn’t about single page vs multipage apps (of course there will be apps that are single page!) - it’s about the expectation by browser vendors that apps would be developed as single page and what we are seeing in the data about single page apps: When looking at apps that declare “*-mobile-web-app-capable”, which are supposed to be single page apps by design, we found that very few apps are actually built as single page. I haven’t yet published this data in the use cases document, but it’s pretty clear that developers are adding “*-mobile-web-app-capable” and: 1. not actually testing what that does (one finds “*-mobile-web-app-capable” with no meta viewport, which means they are serving a “desktop site” and pretending it’s installable… some of the sites also lack icons, etc.). 2. not actually caring that only the bookmarked page will open full screen and any clicked link will throw the user back into the Web browser. 3. finding it too hard to build their app as a single page app, but allowing for install-ability regardless (e.g., ESPN, Vanity). Having said that, there are issues also with navigating installed web apps. The phonegap guys have a wealth of experience to share here, though they are proponents of single page apps to overcome limitations in the Web platform (e.g., avoiding the flash of white when loading another web page when navigating). Anyway, we can deal with those issues later - but just want to be clear about what we’ve seen in the dataset we’ve been looking at in WebMob and what the forthcoming issues are going to be if this goes mainstream. meta name=manifest content={ ... }, link rel=manifest content={ ... }, I think developers will object to the above. If src-n was an abomination to some, then I can’t imagine the above being well received. I think the src-n dislike came from the fact that it tried to use something that has always been a dictionary with a limited and defined set of keys and tried to use it as an array with an unbounded key set. Yes, from an implementation perspective yes. But in the RICG, from web developer perspective, it was more about the strange use of the attribute. That's very different from what we are doing here which is sticking a very large value into an attribute. Personally my vote goes to using link rel=manifest for external manifests, and meta name=manifest for internal manifests. That has a nice symmetry and reuses existing elements in a proper way. And you can put line breaks inside attributes. They don't show up in the attribute value but that seems ok here. And you don't have to escape quotes as long as you use apostrophes as to delimit the attribute value. I.e. the following is just fine. meta name=manifest content='{ a: 1, b: foopy }' I really don’t like this - specially messy with the single quote/double quote thing which is one screws it up is a huge pain in the as to debug. Structured content really feels like it should be in an element. or something else. Like you said, I think it's a conversation we need to have with the HTML people. I’ll investigate a bit more. I’ve added a bug here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/91 I’ll just note that having link rel=manifest and script type manifest would kinda suck… if we can just have: * script type=“application/manifest+json” src=“manifest.json”/script * script type=“application/manifest+json”{}/script that would be great. That would be great. Reading the HTML spec, I think we can. I prefer link/meta as the above is pretty verbose and a lot to remember. And using link to link to external manifests just make so much sense. But I'll defer to you on this. I’ll bounce it to HTMLs people and see what they say.
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: The Editors would appreciate if people take a look and see if you agree with the feature set. When we did outside-of-browser-UI web apps for FirefoxOS we quickly found that a lot of developers want to be able to rely on UA-provided UI such as the back button. Yes, the app can detect that it's running standalone and display a back button itself. However that was significantly more work than any other part of creating a standalone app, which mostly consisted in writing a manifest. It's especially a lot of work if you want to try to replicate the platform-rendered back button on all platforms. What I think we should have is something like: chrome: { back: true } Yep, this is currently captured here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/76 Those of us working on this still need to investigate FxOS a bit more to see what people are using in practice and why (e.g., how much granularity do we really need? to the button level “forward”/“back, or can we just say “navigation-bar”, etc.). Captured here: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/17 If the UA doesn't support any of the properties in the chrome section, then the UA should be required to not launch the app in standalone mode. Yeah that makes sense. I also think that we need a way to put the manifest in-line in the main document. In part, technologies tend to be a lot easier to understand if you can create a single-file demo. In part, for small simple apps, having to separate the manifest into a separate file could be annoying and might drive people to stick to the existing meta-tags. Would it suffice to use the API? It’s much simpler than trying to write out JSON by hand and wouldn’t require us to create any new special script type, etc. script if(“requestBookmark” in navigator){ var appDetails = {name: “Awesome app!”, mode: “standalone”}; navigator.requestBookmark(appDetails).then(happy,sad); } /script It’s more or less equivalent to making it declarative and easily passes the “OMG! that’s so easy!” test :) Obviously, devs will still need to continue using a lot of the meta tags for a while to support legacy browsers (or any browser that doesn’t implement this). I also think the dont-share-cookies-and-stuff thing needs more work before it's ready for inclusion. Yes, totally. It’s just there for discussion. So might be better to drop that for FPWD. But I'm fine with keeping it in for now too and dropping it if we can't solidify it. I’m happy either way. I’ve been told by lawyer types elsewhere at the W3C that it’s best to pack lots of half-baked ideas into an FPWD. Gives those folks a better understanding of the impact the standard might have on them (… they will have to check again in LC, obviously, but it gives them a head start).
Re: New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Charles McCathie Nevile wrote: On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:40:43 +0100, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: Yes, the app can detect that it's running standalone and display a back button itself. However that was significantly more work than any other part of creating a standalone app, which mostly consisted in writing a manifest. It's especially a lot of work if you want to try to replicate the platform-rendered back button on all platforms. What I think we should have is something like: chrome: { back: true } Yep, this is currently captured here: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/76 Those of us working on this still need to investigate FxOS a bit more to see what people are using in practice and why (e.g., how much granularity do we really need? to the button level “forward”/“back, or can we just say “navigation-bar”, etc.). Captured here: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/17 I'd suggest keeping the functions pretty granular. My navbar include various extension buttons, and my Opera navbar included the rewind function (which I loved). I think we'll set very mixed expectations if we try to make general statements about what browser functionalities are, that will cause more confusion than benefit. (Unless we want to do that to try and discover exactly what people expect by seeing how much of all the thingz get b0rken). That’s my intention. Mozilla has been shipping this feature for a couple of months, so there may be enough data for WebMob IG to make an assessment about its usage in the wild (and maybe get an idea of people’s expectations). Would it suffice to use the API? It’s much simpler than trying to write out JSON by hand and wouldn’t require us to create any new special script type, etc. script if(“requestBookmark” in navigator){ var appDetails = {name: “Awesome app!”, mode: “standalone”}; navigator.requestBookmark(appDetails).then(happy,sad); } /script It’s more or less equivalent to making it declarative and easily passes the “OMG! that’s so easy!” test :) Why wouldn't we use the API *and* allow people to write JSON if they want to? Or is that what you meant? Yes, that’s what I meant. Sorry I was not clear. The choices are: 1. use a link rel=“manifest” href=“app.json” in the head. 2. call requestBookmark() with no argument (i.e., bookmark this page) 3. call requestBookmark() with a string URL (or URL object) to a manifest (i.e., bookmark details are here). 4. call requestBookmark() with an object (i.e., serialize to JSON).
[manifest] orientation member
TLDR; orientation is hard. We've temporarily removed it from the spec. We have two proposals below. Orientation of an application is dependent on the media features of the display. For example an application might need to be launched in landscape on phones (in order to have sufficient display width), but prefer to be in portrait on tablets. When analyzing applications across various runtimes, we've found evidence that such applications are common (e.g., basically any application on the iPhone that has an iPad counterpart will be designed to constrain to a particular orientation based on the device being used: LinkedIn, Flipboard, GoodReads, etc. will all go from portrait-primary on the iPhone to allowing any orientation on the iPad. A more extreme example is BBC iPlayer - which supports portrait-primary on the iPhone, but both landscape orientations on iPad. The same can be seen on Android devices. Unlike native apps, Web Apps should not target devices/OS's - they have to be device neutral. In order to address the use cases, we currently have two proposals. Option 1: Provide a list of orientation sets in the manifest. The user agent uses the first one with a matching media query. The order in which the orientations are listed by a developer does not imply a preference for setting the orientation - it is always left up to the user agent to pick the best orientation given, for example, how the user is holding the device. In the example below, no orientation is given for widths of 721px or above, so the default is used: allowing all orientations supported by the device. { orientations: [{ media: max-width: 320px, supported: [portrait-primary, landscape] }, { media: max-width: 720px, supported: [landscape] }] } In this example, a device with a screen width of 320px or below would start either portrait-primary or landscape with the abilty to be flipped depending on how the user is holding the device (and OS permitting). A device with a screen width of 321px through 720px would request to be launched in landscape (leaving it up to the UA to pick either landscape-primary or landscape-secondary, while allowing flippability), and a device with a screen width of 721px and above would start in any orientation chosen by the UA (ideally, one that matches how the user is holding the device). Option 2: The second proposal is to remove orientation from the manifest and use CSS @viewport instead. This would mean: head style /*set it by default to portrait primary for small screens */ @media (max-width: 320px) { @viewport { orientation: portrait-primary, landscape; } } /*Tablet, switch to landscape only*/ @media (max-width: 720px) { @viewport { orientation: landscape; } } /* similarly on screens with a width of 721px or more, all orientations are allowed */ /style /head Problem with using @viewport at the moment is that the specification is progressing a bit slowly and no one has implemented the orientation descriptor. It also lacks definitions for -primary and -secondary contraints, which are important for various applications, and doesn't currently allow providing multiple allowed orientations - hopefully the CSS Device Adaption spec can align with the Screen Orientation spec.
Re: [screen-orientation] Locking to 'current' orientation
On Tuesday, 26 November 2013 at 15:16, Mounir Lamouri wrote: Hi, I got some requests from different organizations to add the ability to lock to the 'current' orientation in the Screen Orientation API. From Javascript, that would allow writing window.screen.lockOrientation('current'); instead of window.screen.lockOrientation(window.screen.orientation); Basically, a syntax sugar. the one with JavaScript seems more clear to me (as it's more evident that it's dynamically derived). current is kinda weird because setting the orientation is an async operation, so by the time you work out what current is, it might not longer be the current one... so it's kind or a race condition. From the manifest, writing the following 'orientation': 'current', Apps can have multiple orientations and it appears to be somewhat media query dependent. I'm cooking up something different for the manifest but would like terms to align.
Re: [screen-orientation] Locking to 'current' orientation
On Tuesday, 26 November 2013 at 15:30, Kenneth Rohde Christiansen wrote: hi, On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Marcos Caceres w...@marcosc.com (mailto:w...@marcosc.com) wrote: On Tuesday, 26 November 2013 at 15:16, Mounir Lamouri wrote: Hi, I got some requests from different organizations to add the ability to lock to the 'current' orientation in the Screen Orientation API. From Javascript, that would allow writing window.screen.lockOrientation('current'); instead of window.screen.lockOrientation(window.screen.orientation); Basically, a syntax sugar. current is nice because it works for the manifest as well. IMHO, it would be confusing to have an app that when you launch it the first time locks one way... but when you launch it the next time, locks another way. In the 300 apps we've been cataloguing for orientation [1], there is not a single instance of that exhibits this behaviour. I've also never personally seen any app do this on startup. Mounir, what is the use case for locking to current on startup? Which applications do you know that exhibit this behaviour? the one with JavaScript seems more clear to me (as it's more evident that it's dynamically derived). current is kinda weird because setting the orientation is an async operation, so by the time you work out what current is, it might not longer be the current one... so it's kind or a race condition. Why? If it rotating at the moment you call it, it could just fail, if it is not, it could lock immediately. It is no different from using the window.screen.orientation. Sure, but it's more about setting expectations. For me personally, using window.screen.orientation is more explicit about what I want... like: var current = screen.orientation; console.log(ok! locking it to:, current ); screen.lockOrientation(current); current is more like requesting. That's just me tho. [1] https://docs.google.com/a/marcosc.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akv8gJijerFUdFQ4RVNibXNUNElWZU05THJ4NE9BSVE#gid=0
New manifest spec - ready for FPWD?
Over the last few weeks, a few of us folks in the Web Mob IG have been investigating the use cases and requirements for bookmarking web apps to home screen. The output of that research is this living document: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/ That (ongoing) research is helping to inform the manifest spec. A bunch of us have been working together on IRC, twitter, etc. on a new version of the manifest spec: http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ The Editors would appreciate if people take a look and see if you agree with the feature set. ** Right now, please refrain from bike-shedding! ** Unless anyone objects, the Editors would like to request the start of a CFC towards publishing a FPWD of the manifest spec. -- Marcos Caceres
[Manifest] use cases, was Re: [coord] Is there still a need for WebApps + SysApps meeting at TPAC?
On Friday, November 1, 2013 at 6:25 AM, Wonsuk Lee wrote: Hi. Marcos. I think one of big benefit with manifest format is we can use hyperlink for that. User can install a web app with manifest format, no need to visit a site. So manifest can provide more smooth way of installation to user. They can install apps via links in blogs, twitter, facebook, extra. What do you think? I think that use case is fine, but I think it might also be orthogonal to the manifest. You could also achieve the same thing by declaring in HTML that a link is to an installable application somehow (a@rel=“webapp” or some such). I want to be crystal clear - I’m not saying we don’t need the manifest, I just think that we need to better understand exactly what bits we need. I’m currently undertaking that research and will share it soon so more people can contribute to the discussion. Will likely do that as part of Web Mob [1]. [1] http://www.w3.org/Mobile/IG/
Re: [coord] Is there still a need for WebApps + SysApps meeting at TPAC?
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: [ My apologies in advance for cross-posting but I think it's needed for this coordination topic. ] Hi All, Last June, the Chairs of WebApps and SysApps agreed to allocate a time slot @ TPAC Shenzhen for a joint meeting from 16:00-17:00 on Monday November 11 [1]. The one topic currently identified for that slot is the Manifest spec. Marcos - would you please summarize the overall `state` of the Manifest spec (f.ex. the status, next steps, blockers, and such)? I would also like to know if you think there are some related issues that could potentially benefit from some meeting time, or if we can use the list server instead. I’m trying to figure out (or get agreement amongst those interested in implementing) if we should have a JSON manifest or go with the meta tag solution (or both) - this is a blocker. Current steps are for me to investigate the solutions and usage on teh Webs. No significant work has been done on the spec since it moved over to WebApps. I don’t mind if we do it on the list. But if others want me to dial in to discuss, I’m ok to do that. All - are there any other topics to discuss? Not from me. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [coord] Is there still a need for WebApps + SysApps meeting at TPAC?
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Nilsson, Claes1 wrote: I want to say that we are interested in implementing the JSON manifest and also to discuss additions to the manifest. Content security policies have already been mentioned and we are looking at something similar to http://developer.chrome.com/extensions/contentSecurityPolicy.html, which allows inclusion of content security policies to support secure hosted apps by defining schemes (https:) that are allowed to use for whitelisting secure origins from which scripts should be accepted. This is orthogonal to the manifest, as web apps can already do this. Adding this to the manifest would only be sugar to allow developers to tighten the CSP. I would also like to better understand what a meta tag solution would mean. See: https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariHTMLRef/Articles/MetaTags.html And: https://developers.google.com/chrome/mobile/docs/installtohomescreen So, some standardized thing of the above (without the proprietary prefixes, of course). However, as the manifest specification editor Marcos unfortunately is not able to participate in TPAC I am not sure on the most efficient way to discuss the manifest, a joint SysApps-WebApps session with Marcos calling in or a mailing list discussion. I’m happy to dial in, but would like to know specially what people want to discuss about it. My main point is to stress our interest in the manifest specification and additions to it. I think it’s more important to understand the use cases, and then we can evaluate if the manifest is the appropriate place to address those.
Re: [screen-orientation] Seeking status and plans
On October 27, 2013 at 12:45:26 PM, Arthur Barstow (art.bars...@nokia.com) wrote: On 10/26/13 9:03 AM, ext Kenneth Rohde Christiansen wrote: Yes, Tizen and IE11 implements it Thanks Kenneth. Marcos - is the following what Mounir means re screen-orientation issues you raised: Yes. The TAG was supposed to expand on them, but hasn’t yet. Also, Mounir has addressed a bunch already. Please create Bugzilla bugs for these issues (if applicable). I’ll check what is outstanding still and do that.
Re: [gamepad] Seeking status and plans
On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: One reason groups publish a LCWD is to use it as a signal that broader review of the spec is desired, and in this case, perhaps we can ask Marcos to help us reach out to the developer community he mentioned in [Dev]. I've pinged the developer, as he works for Moz. I can reach out to a few other devs too. If anyone knows folks working with this API, please let me know.
Re: [gamepad] Seeking status and plans
On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Ted Mielczarek wrote: On 10/14/2013 3:34 PM, Marcos Caceres wrote: Hi All, The Gamepad API was briefly discussed at the LXJS conference. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekvaKmVfjtct=5m30s It seems at least one developer is very unhappy with it. Have we received any other feedback from developers about it? Has any effort been made to reach out to other developers to get feedback? Thanks for the pointer. I watched that portion of the video and it's not very constructive feedback. I'll reach out to him (considering he's a coworker) and see if I can find out more specifics. We heard from quite a few developers while implementing the first draft of the API and they were overwhelmingly in favor of the current design. I haven't heard much in the way of feedback from developers actually testing the implementation we've shipped, so it's possible there are issues with it in practice. I'd definitely like to hear more we declare things finished. Ok, great. Let me know if I can do anything to help. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [gamepad] Seeking status and plans
Hi All, The Gamepad API was briefly discussed at the LXJS conference. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekvaKmVfjtct=5m30s It seems at least one developer is very unhappy with it. Have we received any other feedback from developers about it? Has any effort been made to reach out to other developers to get feedback? Kind regards, Marcos -- Marcos Caceres On Thursday, October 10, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Ted Mielczarek wrote: On 10/2/2013 12:31 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: Hi Ted, Scott, If any of the data for the Gamepad spec in [PubStatus] is not accurate, please provide corrections. Also, if you have any new information re your plans for the spec - last published 29-May-2012 - or the spec's status with respect to being feature complete, implementation status, etc., please let us know. -Thanks, ArtB [PubStatus] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus Hi Art, Thanks for the nudge! My work on the spec (and the Firefox implementation) fell by the wayside for many months, but I found some time to work on my implementation recently. We (Mozilla) are shipping a very-close-to-spec implementation in Nightly builds, and it's available behind a preference in our current release (Firefox 24). I'd actually like to ship our implementation in release soon, I just have a few minor implementation bugs (with significant impact) to fix as well as one possible breaking spec change[1]. With those in order I'd be pretty happy to ship. We'd be shipping unprefixed, as is our new policy. It's my understanding that Google has been shipping a prefixed implementation that's also pretty close to the spec for some time now, but that Scott suffers from the same Gamepad is not really my full-time job problem that I do. He'd be more equipped to talk about this than I am, certainly. In terms of feature-completeness I think the spec is basically done. Aside from that one breaking change I'd like to make I don't think there's anything else we want to address right now that couldn't be done in a future release of the spec. We've wanted to keep the scope small from the beginning and I think we did okay. It definitely needs some more work (mostly polishing of the text, fixing the existing bugs), but we could certainly get out a new WD with the most recent text. -Ted 1. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21388
Re: [widgetsapi] reference to WebIDL
On Friday, October 11, 2013, Arthur Barstow wrote: On 7/31/13 10:05 AM, ext Marcos Caceres wrote: On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: Thanks, indeed the CR-PR transition was made with a test suite that was linked to this WebIDL reference, and not the other one. That said, if you have tests and better, a report for a stricter conformance to WebIDL, it would be good to highlight them. No need. Let just go to REC and be done please ^_^ Marcos, Yves - what specific things must be done to move widgets-apis to REC? Update the date and should be good to go?
Re: Regarding: Making the W3C Web SQL Database Specification Active
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Michael Fitchett wrote: Dear Members of the W3C Consortium:: Regarding: Making the W3C Web SQL Database Specification Active I would like to request that you make the W3C Web SQL Database specification active again. The Web SQL Database Specification enables developers to build web-based applications that can store, retrieve, manipulate and query against data on the client machine. This technology is similar to SQLite, Microsoft SQL Server, MySQL, etc. Web SQL combined with Manifest enable developers to build web-based applications that work while offline. The Web SQL Database specification was on the W3C Recommendation track, but the specification was stopped because Mozilla and Microsoft did not want to implement a specification that lacked proper SQL definition. I know there is a need for both a NoSQL and SQL solution. The two specifications (Web SQL Database and Indexed Database API) that exist to date are acceptable.. However, as stated above, the problem is the lack of definition for SQL. Since lack of definition is the issue, I would like to recommend a remedy. I know SQL experts and great documentation writers who I would gladly hire to further define the Web SQL Database specification and fill in the missing SQL definition. Is this something that would be possible to help revive the specification and get the remaining vendors on board? I think this ship has sailed, for better or for worst. We have IndexedDB as the database solution for the platform. It would be great to get help making IndexedDB more usable instead of working on Web SQL. Kind regards, Marcos -- Marcos Caceres
Re: Regarding: Making the W3C Web SQL Database Specification Active
On Friday, September 27, 2013 at 3:07 PM, pira...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Marcos. Also, I thinks IndexedDB fits better as a Javascript database working in a pure object oriented way. I don't think WebSQL it's absolutely bad, relational databases usually are easier to work with, but a NoSQL one can be more efficient. I would go for improve IndexedDB and if so, develop a SQL database on top of it (it would only need just the SQL parser) as a javascript library, so you could get the best of both worlds and also merge queries and results in both ways (SQL and NoSQL) over the same database and data. yeah, that would be nice. Given how low level IDB is, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't already tried to do this. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [clipboard] typo in WebIDL
On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 20:31, Hallvord Steen wrote: So does this imply that someone (i.e. Hallvord :)) needs to move it elsewhere? Nah, it just means I should be more stringent on pushing out releases and go through the TR process (painful or not) so that the thingy with /TR/ in the URL is as up-to-date as possible. For a spec like clipboard events, which is not changing very much, it should be doable to get it to TR if I find just a little bit more time to polish it. Ha! If I had a dollar for… just put it GitHub so then you don't need to be the only person polishing it :) If people care about the spec, then they can just send you PRs. For a spec like, say, HTML5, Anne is right that the /TR/ version can be out of date compared to the apparently ever changing editor's draft. For list discussions, editor's draft is a good reference because that's the document that is being changed. Hope that clears up the confusion :) It won't, as people are still going to end up at the wrong version.
Re: Reminder: TTWF-Shenzhen Nov 9, F2F Meeting Nov 11-12, TP Meeting Nov 13
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Graham wrote: On 13/09/13 14:29, Arthur Barstow wrote: Hi All - three threads about TPAC 2013 and WebApps' November 11-12 in Shenzhen. 1. WebApps meeting November 11-12: * You Must register for the meeting https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2013/ * WebApps meeting page http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting. Input on the agenda is of course welcome (but feel free to directly edit this page). I have been thinking about setting aside some portion of Tuesday Nov 12 for test case writing so any comments on that idea are welcome (perhaps all of Tuesday afternoon). FWIW I think the most productive use of this testing time would be to spend some time getting the group up to speed on how testcase review works and then trying to clear some of the review backlog. The members of the WG are exactly the people who are best placed to review test submissions, but at the moment this is not happening and it is causing problems. Of course I will be happy if people want to spend the time writing tests rather than reviewing them. Agree… the backlog is getting silly and it's becoming a deterrent for submission. More people should be trained to have the ability to review and possibly approve tests. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: RfC: LCWD of Web Notifications; deadline October 24
On Thursday, September 12, 2013 at 5:19 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: WebApps - the Web Notification WG asked WebApps to review their September 12 LCWD of Web Notifications: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-notifications-20130912/ Individual WG members are encouraged to provide individual feedback. If anyone in WebApps wants to propose an official WG response, please do so ASAP, in reply to this e-mail so the WG can discuss it. Comments should be sent to public-web-notificat...@w3.org by October 24. The link to the Editor's draft seems bad in the published version. The actual Editor's draft is here, I think: http://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/
Re: HTML as application manifest format
Hi Kornel, Although I have complete empathy about your criticisms regarding JSON, it is actually quite fit for this purpose. Using HTML in the way you describe is kinda problematic, in that it could include scripts and other resources: basically, one would need to build a DOM to parse out the information - and even if scripts where not run, or resources loaded, one would still then need to make a special HTML just for this purpose (which would confuse people, as if you use HTML you expect to be able to have access to features of the platform). We are going to need a custom processor for the JSON format, but at least parsing is already done for us (as it was with XML, though sadly it seems that devs prefer JSON). Thanks anyway for the suggestion and for taking time to think about the problem! Hopefully you can continue to help us with the JSON manifest. -- Marcos Caceres On Thursday, 18 July 2013 at 14:57, Kornel Lesiński wrote: I'd like to propose using HTML as basis of manifest format, similar in spirit to Web Components imports, e.g. link rel=manifest import href=/my-app-definition.html and then my-app-definition.html could contain link, meta or other elements. Rationale: * while JSON is wonderful for automatic serialization, it's an annoying format when maintained by hand (and manifest seems static and simple enough to be maintained by hand). - JSON syntax is pedantic about trailing comma. Authors have to be careful when adding new element to end of a list. - JSON does not support comments. Manifest is a central place of an application, so may end up being modified by many team members, and it's useful to comment why certain properties are the way they are, warn which changes will cause breakage (again…), etc. * We already have link rel=icon sizes, meta name=description, meta name=application-name that can be reused. Authors already know these and it may be easier to define and understand how meta and manifest properties interact. * We already have lang hreflang attributes, so there's no need to invent locales dictionaries. * It can be inlined naturally, saving a RTT. * It can be mixed with Web Components allowing applications to define everything in one place if they wish to. * Simple websites can reuse homepage as their manifest file: link rel=manifest href=/ Here's HTMLized example from the spec: http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/manifest/#example-manifest html lang=en manifest=/cache.manifest meta name=name content=The Example App meta name=description content=Exciting Open Web development action! meta lang=es name=description content=¡Acción abierta emocionante del desarrollo del Web! meta name=launch-path content=/ meta name=version content=1.0 link rel=icon sizes=16 href=/img/icon_16.png link rel=icon sizes=48 href=/img/icon_48.png link rel=icon sizes=128 href=/img/icon_128.png meta name=author content=Foo Corp. link rel=author href=http://example.org/dev; link rel=author hreflang=es href=https://example.org/dev/es-ES; style @viewport { min-width: 300px; max-width: 600px; } /style meta name=required-features content=touch geolocation webgl meta name=permissions:contacts:description content=Required for auto-completion in the share screen meta name=permissions:contacts:access content=read meta name=fullscreen content=true meta name=release_notes:1.0 content=Bugs fixed. New exciting effects. Ready for an official release! meta name=release_notes:0.5 content=First alpha version with still some bugs but already fun! When writing this I was surprised how well existing functionality fits (and thus how much NIH can be avoided). The only bit that didn't seem natural fit was meta for permissions, so maybe a better element needs to be invented for it: permission for=contacts access=read meta name=description content=Required for… meta name=description lang=pl content=Wymagane do… /permission or perhaps made generic: metagroup name=permissions metagroup name=contacts meta name=access content=read meta name=description content=Required for… meta name=description lang=pl content=Wymagane do… /metagroup /metagroup -- regards, Kornel
Re: [widgetsapi] reference to WebIDL
On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: Thanks, indeed the CR-PR transition was made with a test suite that was linked to this WebIDL reference, and not the other one. That said, if you have tests and better, a report for a stricter conformance to WebIDL, it would be good to highlight them. No need. Let just go to REC and be done please ^_^ -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [screen-orientation] Comments from Marcos
FYI, this is now moved here: https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/blob/master/2013/07/OrientationLock.md Mounir has already addressed some of the feedback. -- Marcos Caceres On Friday, July 26, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Friday, 26 July 2013 at 12:09, Arthur Barstow wrote: FYI, Marcos provided some comments on the latest Screen Orientation API ED in https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/issues/7. Marcos - thanks for this. No probs :) Is your expectation that followups on your review are made in GH or WebApps' list? (My preference is the list, unless there is some specific `Web Architecture` / TAG issue.) The feedback will happen on this list, but first I was going to move everything to a document on GH. Alex said he might also provide some feedback (potentially also other TAG members!). I'm coordinating with Mounir a bit on the review and updating the spec. Once we have the text ready, the TAG will send it to public-webapps for discussion. Will take a few more days as about 1/3 of the TAG is at a TC39 meeting. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: Web Widgets, Where Art Thou?
Hi Daniel, On Monday, July 29, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Daniel Buchner wrote: FWIW, I ran a dev poll last week: ~95% of respondents What was the sample size? Who were the developers? Where was the poll run? preferred a simple, separate HTML document specifically for their widget and use all the existing DOM APIs and modules from across the web for things like storage, localization, etc. In fact, of the only 2 respondents opposed to the idea, one fundamentally misunderstood the widget concept and the other accidentally selected the wrong option. Here are some of their qualitative responses: How did you select the sample of responses you sent us? Can I have access to the complete questionnaire? I need to check the validity and reliability of the questions as well as the overall design of the poll - as the ordering of the questions can influence answers as well as how the questions are phrased, etc. If it's a non-probabilistic sample (as it appears to be), we can't conclude anything definitive from it because it's not representative - though it can be indicative of something descriptively, but not inferentially. Given the miniscule level of adoption/use of the current widget scheme, and the fact the proposed addition of a lighter declaration via the app manifest wouldn't affect use of the old spec, I'm having trouble understanding why this proposal is facing such stop energy. Please don't confuse questions for stop energy - the costs of standardization (social/monetary) is extremely high - specially so if we don't do it right, so there will be a lot of scrutiny on anything being proposed.
Re: [widgetsapi] reference to WebIDL
On Monday, July 29, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: Hi, In the PR [1], the text referencing WebIDL is not using one of the three conformance clauses defined in WebIDL [2]. Could This specification uses [WebIDL] to specify application programming interfaces. be clarified using one of the proposed wordings from WebIDL? (likely 'Conforming IDL Fragments' per reading of the spec). Thanks, Sure, I can add that if you think it will be helpful. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [widgetsapi] reference to WebIDL
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Monday, July 29, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: Hi, In the PR [1], the text referencing WebIDL is not using one of the three conformance clauses defined in WebIDL [2]. Could This specification uses [WebIDL] to specify application programming interfaces. be clarified using one of the proposed wordings from WebIDL? (likely 'Conforming IDL Fragments' per reading of the spec). Thanks, Sure, I can add that if you think it will be helpful. Yes, that would be helpful (hence the report), thanks. Done. Spec now sez: Implementations that use ECMAScript to implement the APIs defined in this specification must implement them in a manner consistent with the ECMAScript Bindings defined in the Web IDL specification [WebIDL], as this specification uses that specification and terminology. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: [widgetsapi] reference to WebIDL
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Marcos Caceres wrote: On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Yves Lafon wrote: Yes, that would be helpful (hence the report), thanks. Done. Spec now sez: Implementations that use ECMAScript to implement the APIs defined in this specification must implement them in a manner consistent with the ECMAScript Bindings defined in the Web IDL specification [WebIDL], as this specification uses that specification and terminology. Whoops. Seems I misunderstood. The spec actually now says: The IDL blocks in this specification are conforming IDL fragments as defined by the WebIDL specification.
Re: [screen-orientation] Comments from Marcos
On Friday, 26 July 2013 at 12:09, Arthur Barstow wrote: FYI, Marcos provided some comments on the latest Screen Orientation API ED in https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/issues/7. Marcos - thanks for this. No probs :) Is your expectation that followups on your review are made in GH or WebApps' list? (My preference is the list, unless there is some specific `Web Architecture` / TAG issue.) The feedback will happen on this list, but first I was going to move everything to a document on GH. Alex said he might also provide some feedback (potentially also other TAG members!). I'm coordinating with Mounir a bit on the review and updating the spec. Once we have the text ready, the TAG will send it to public-webapps for discussion. Will take a few more days as about 1/3 of the TAG is at a TC39 meeting. -- Marcos Caceres
Re: Web Widgets, Where Art Thou?
On Monday, July 22, 2013 at 11:54 PM, Daniel Buchner wrote: To clarify, I am proposing that we make a simple app manifest entry the only requirement for widget declaration: widget: { launch_path: ... }. The issue with viewMode (https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/22), is that it hard-binds a widget's launch URL to the app's launch URL, forever tying the widget to the full app. I'd like to give devs the option to provide a completely different launch path for widgets, if they choose. As for the finer points of widget declaration, why force developers to generate two separate files that regurgitate much of the same information? -- this looks a lot more complex than adding a launch path to an existing file and a few media queries for styling: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-reqs-20090430/ The thing here is that you are adding an explicit role or type for an application (by declaring widget:). We view the representation of the application as being more responsive than that through a view mode. What you propose explicitly encourages two different applications to be created, instead of a single one that adapts to the context in which it's being displayed. Again, take a look at how Opera's speed dial was making use of view modes. However, I can see how splitting the two application classes into different resources can be appealing at first… but it goes against the principles of responsive design: it would be like telling people to build a separate desktop site and mobile site, instead of responsibly adapting the content to fit the layout. Using view mode media queries works naturally with the way modern web applications are designed today - they fit naturally into just being another break point. while taking advantage of natural synergies that result from reusing a common base. I think I agree, but can we be explicit about the things we think we're getting? Many mobile apps include widgets, and users are beginning to think: Hey, I wonder if this app has a widget?; some users even seek out apps that provide a companion widget in addition to the app itself. Using an app manifest for packaging is easier on developers, and aligns with user perception of the output. Sure, that might be fine. In the case of W3C Widgets, one simply said: widget viewmodes = floating/ Which indicated to the UA that floating mode was supported (i.e., you can widgetized it on a home screen). In hosted apps, we are proposing to have the same thing. See: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/22 { … viewModes: [fullscreen, maximized] ... } For example, many browsers now use some form of JSON to write a manifest that (other than the syntax) is almost identical to the XML packaging used for widgets. And as JC noted there are actually numerous systems using the XML Packaging and Configuration. I see widgets as a web page (perhaps the same page as a full app,if the dev chooses) with near-zero additional, cognitive overhead. I'm afraid I have no idea what this means in practice. I was referring to the choice (detailed above) a developer has to use the app launch path, or an different URL, as their widget path, and to do so via a common declaration vehicle. That simplifies the declaration side. On the code side, I would stay away from adding any mechanisms (other than display helpers, like widget-specific media queries) to the widget context - the message: just use the same APIs you would use for any other app/page. With today's web, are these APIs really necessary? -- http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-apis/ Yes, they are totally required unless you want developers do deal with i18n things themselves. It takes away the pain of finding out which localized values the app is using from the manifest. - I believe we should retool efforts in this area to focus on sharing the app packaging vehicle and reducing complexity to near-zero (besides things like widget-specific media queries) This is where it is critical to know what you think is near-zero complexity. Having seen a couple of systems deployed based on JSON packaging (Google and Mozilla), and a bunch of them based on the current XML Widget Packaging, I personally find the latter far less complex. But I realise not everyone thinks like I do. If you asked the average client-side web developer, who lives primarily in HTML, CSS, and JS, I would bet a trillion dollar coin that the overwhelming majority prefer JSON for description, packaging, and data transmission - consider: web app manifests, NPM, Bower, and nearly every client-consumed web-service API launched in the last 4 years. Sure. Again, being biased, I don't think we had a single complaint from devs about the format being XML while I was at Opera (we built an extremely robust parsing algorithm based on HTML5's parser, which made it much easier to work with