Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Sat, 2009-02-07 at 09:45 -0800, Mike Orr wrote: Yes, this is a better way. Eventually you will have multiple applications, and at some point you'll want to upgrade one while another is still using older APIs. Even Setuptools has this problem periodically, in that newer versions of Pylons or its dependencies depend on a newer version of Setuptools than Debian provides. A virtualenv will automatically install a private copy of Setuptools, which can then be upgraded without affecting other production applications. Depends on the environment. I will never have that problem. Others might. Your suggestions are noted though. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdr...@jabber.postgresql.org Consulting, Development, Support, Training 503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Sat, 2009-02-07 at 23:18 +0100, Piotr Ozarowski wrote: [Mike Orr, 2009-02-07] Ah, it's been a long time since I've seen a Linux system where the user and system administrator weren't the same person. well, sometimes it needs some work to glue different Python modules and applications together (Pylons devs/users should know this better than others, no?) and guess who will be blamed if a random Python application suddenly doesn't work anymore? Specially since using easy_install to install modules system-wide is recommend everywhere (even by Python programmers!). FTR: I don't think easy_install is pure evil, it's simply not used sanely. This is interesting. To me the direction this thread took is in reverse. Things should be installed globally. It is part of production. You define your deployment, your dependencies and that is what you get. That way you don't have to much with silly things like virtualenv. Once a machine of mine goes production, it never gets updated except for security releases. If done properly they will not break apis and if they do they better mention it in the release notes so we can test the app before we do the upgrade. If I need to have another app with a different version I will use a VM or a new server. Now, I have in the past installed things locally. In fact at one point I used to install everything per user. It would be almost like they had a FreeBSD jail where everything was at there disposal except system global files but that was when I was working on apps where I had customers that were unwilling to pay for environments of their own. Joshau D. Drake -- PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdr...@jabber.postgresql.org Consulting, Development, Support, Training 503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
[Joshua D. Drake, 2009-02-09] On Sat, 2009-02-07 at 23:18 +0100, Piotr Ozarowski wrote: [Mike Orr, 2009-02-07] Ah, it's been a long time since I've seen a Linux system where the user and system administrator weren't the same person. well, sometimes it needs some work to glue different Python modules and applications together (Pylons devs/users should know this better than others, no?) and guess who will be blamed if a random Python application suddenly doesn't work anymore? Specially since using easy_install to install modules system-wide is recommend everywhere (even by Python programmers!). FTR: I don't think easy_install is pure evil, it's simply not used sanely. This is interesting. To me the direction this thread took is in reverse. Things should be installed globally. It is part of production. You define your deployment, your dependencies and that is what you get. That way you don't have to much with silly things like virtualenv. installing globally is good (preferred, I'd even say, it's easier to fix security holes in one place only - all these Linux distributions cannot be wrong, right?)... _if_ you can share dependencies with other parts of the system and your system is aware of files you installed (so that it will not try to install libraries you already have or will not install applications that depend on different versions of libraries if these libraries cannot coexist in the same env. (i.e. are conflicting with each other) - like many Python modules) Once a machine of mine goes production, it never gets updated except for security releases. just one question: are you 100% sure that none of the tools you use to get/install/be notified about/whatever these security updates is written in Python or has some Python dependencies and Python modules/Eggs you installed are not breaking them? If yes, everything is ok. If I need to have another app with a different version I will use a VM or a new server. I meant another app as in completely not Pylons related. What if you'll install a log parser written in Python that should notify you about problems with this machine and it's not working correctly due to a bug in one of libraries you installed with your application (and which overwrote the working one shipped with your distribution)? -- -=[ Piotr Ożarowski ]=- -=[ http://www.ozarowski.pl ]=- pgpbYMHtLoDoH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote: This is interesting. To me the direction this thread took is in reverse. Things should be installed globally. It is part of production. You define your deployment, your dependencies and that is what you get. That way you don't have to much with silly things like virtualenv. If I need to have another app with a different version I will use a VM or a new server. Well, virtualenv is like a VM, at least in the case where the only thing you need to isolate is the Python libraries. If you have six web sites it can be a bit excessive to have six VMs for them, especially if two are used heavily and two are not used much. Ideally you'd want to use mature software that has OS packages available. Then you can just install the OS packages globally and everything will be fine. The API won't change much between versions so you can learn it once and that'll last you several years. This is the case with Apache, MySQLdb, PIL, etc. -- fortunately the things that are hardest to install locally. But with immature software, the versions and APIs change too quickly to do this. If we were to apply this to Pylons, we'd have to stick to 0.9.6, which is not bad but is a dead end long term. So if I have an 0.9.6 application which is running fine and will not have a major upgrade soon, I'll keep supporting it on 0.9.6 as long as I can. But new applications I'll write for 0.9.7 because it's close to final, and to avoid writing it twice (for 0.9.6 now, then upgrading to 0.9.7 later). Plus there may be some bugfixes or new features in 0.9.7 that this application needs now or might need in the future. So if I deploy both the new and the older application, right there I've got incompatible library requirements and thus the need for virtualenv (or virtual servers, or a fake user for each application). -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Fri, 2009-02-06 at 22:16 -0700, m h wrote: On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote: Comments welcome. Can't figure out how to comment on your blog That's on purpose. :) It seems that installation/configuration of apache is what is hard/painful. Installing pylons is pretty straightforward on ubuntu/gentoo/macos Well even configuring apache is no more difficult than pylons, if you know how to configure apache. I think that might be the stumbling block. Joshua D. Drake -matt -- PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdr...@jabber.postgresql.org Consulting, Development, Support, Training 503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
[Joshua D. Drake] sudo easy_install pylons Please add Please note that after this command, you cannot report bugs against Python related Debian/Ubuntu packages and if you will want to uninstall Pylons or some of your other applications will stop working, reinstall your system (which normally, you should never do on Debian) NEVER INSTALL EGGS INTO GLOBAL SITE-PACKAGES!!! hint: python-virtualenv other hints: since you're targeting Ubuntu: on Debian based systems to enable Apache module (mod-wsgi is enabled by default after installing libapache2-mod-wsgi, btw) all you need to do is: `a2enmod module` (f.e. `a2enmod wsgi`) pgpRNM1xgs8hH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Piotr Ozarowski oza...@gmail.com wrote: [Joshua D. Drake] sudo easy_install pylons Please add Please note that after this command, you cannot report bugs against Python related Debian/Ubuntu packages and if you will want to uninstall Pylons or some of your other applications will stop working, reinstall your system (which normally, you should never do on Debian) NEVER INSTALL EGGS INTO GLOBAL SITE-PACKAGES!!! Both Debian and Ubuntu have /usr/local/lib/python2.X/site-packages, which is expressly intended for locally-installed libraries like this. Their Python interpreter has been modified to look both places. If easy_install tries to put something into /usr/lib, a small change in /usr/lib/python2.X/distutils/distutils.cfg or ~/.pydistutils.cfg will correct it.) hint: python-virtualenv Yes, this is a better way. Eventually you will have multiple applications, and at some point you'll want to upgrade one while another is still using older APIs. Even Setuptools has this problem periodically, in that newer versions of Pylons or its dependencies depend on a newer version of Setuptools than Debian provides. A virtualenv will automatically install a private copy of Setuptools, which can then be upgraded without affecting other production applications. I normally install Ubuntu packages only for things that have C extensions that can be hard to compile. So python-mysqldb, python-ldap, python-imaging, etc. These are pretty mature so the default version is probably all you'll ever need. The same cannot be said for Pylons, SQLAlchemy, Setuptools, etc. -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
[Mike Orr, 2009-02-07] On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Piotr Ozarowski oza...@gmail.com wrote: [Joshua D. Drake] sudo easy_install pylons Please add Please note that after this command, you cannot report bugs against Python related Debian/Ubuntu packages and if you will want to uninstall Pylons or some of your other applications will stop working, reinstall your system (which normally, you should never do on Debian) NEVER INSTALL EGGS INTO GLOBAL SITE-PACKAGES!!! Both Debian and Ubuntu have /usr/local/lib/python2.X/site-packages, which is expressly intended for locally-installed libraries like this. ... by administrators who want to add some local modifications, not by users who want to do some tests let me cite FHS: | The /usr/local hierarchy is for use by the system administrator when | installing software locally. It needs to be safe from being overwritten | when the system software is updated. It may be used for programs and | data that are shareable amongst a group of hosts, but not found in /usr. so, even if easy_install would install to /usr/local it still would be wrong. Their Python interpreter has been modified to look both places. If easy_install tries to put something into /usr/lib, a small change in /usr/lib/python2.X/distutils/distutils.cfg or ~/.pydistutils.cfg will correct it.) note the sudo part in Joshua's command I normally install Ubuntu packages only for things that have C extensions that can be hard to compile. So python-mysqldb, python-ldap, python-imaging, etc. These are pretty mature so the default version is probably all you'll ever need. The same cannot be said for Pylons, SQLAlchemy, Setuptools, etc. again, please don't install them into global site-packages (no matter if you choose /usr or /usr/local). If you don't believe me it's a bad idea, just list eggs you installed on your system and I'll give you names of packages that you broke by using eggs. pgpChRhmwtjYJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Piotr Ozarowski oza...@gmail.com wrote: [Mike Orr, 2009-02-07] On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Piotr Ozarowski oza...@gmail.com wrote: [Joshua D. Drake] sudo easy_install pylons Please add Please note that after this command, you cannot report bugs against Python related Debian/Ubuntu packages and if you will want to uninstall Pylons or some of your other applications will stop working, reinstall your system (which normally, you should never do on Debian) NEVER INSTALL EGGS INTO GLOBAL SITE-PACKAGES!!! Both Debian and Ubuntu have /usr/local/lib/python2.X/site-packages, which is expressly intended for locally-installed libraries like this. ... by administrators who want to add some local modifications, not by users who want to do some tests let me cite FHS: | The /usr/local hierarchy is for use by the system administrator when | installing software locally. It needs to be safe from being overwritten | when the system software is updated. It may be used for programs and | data that are shareable amongst a group of hosts, but not found in /usr. so, even if easy_install would install to /usr/local it still would be wrong. Ah, it's been a long time since I've seen a Linux system where the user and system administrator weren't the same person. -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
[Mike Orr, 2009-02-07] Ah, it's been a long time since I've seen a Linux system where the user and system administrator weren't the same person. well, sometimes it needs some work to glue different Python modules and applications together (Pylons devs/users should know this better than others, no?) and guess who will be blamed if a random Python application suddenly doesn't work anymore? Specially since using easy_install to install modules system-wide is recommend everywhere (even by Python programmers!). FTR: I don't think easy_install is pure evil, it's simply not used sanely. pgpBjJMWG4A0V.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO: Installing Pylons on Hardy
On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote: Hello, I recently had to do this for a customer. It wasn't as easy as it should be, but it was hardly difficult. I have blogged it here if any are interested: http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2009/02/configuring_pylons_on_ubuntu_hardy/ I do make some assumptions in the document but anyone reasonably familiar with how to use a web browser and their own system configuration shouldn't have any problems. Comments welcome. Can't figure out how to comment on your blog It seems that installation/configuration of apache is what is hard/painful. Installing pylons is pretty straightforward on ubuntu/gentoo/macos -matt --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
