Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Brianna Laugher]

Hi,

It looks like there are a few more repos that could be claimed as well:

https://tidelift.com/lifter/search/pypi/pytest-xdist
https://tidelift.com/lifter/search/pypi/pytest-cov
https://tidelift.com/lifter/search/pypi/pluggy
https://tidelift.com/lifter/search/pypi/py

etc.

cheers
Brianna


On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 08:20, Bruno Oliveira  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I've registered pytest with Tidelift, so it is now officially part of the
> platform:  https://tidelift.com/subscription/pkg/pypi-pytest
>
> I've opened a PR documenting what we've discussed here:
>
> https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/pull/5240
>
> Any suggestions are very welcome!
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:05 AM Bruno Oliveira 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Daniel,
>>
>> On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 5:57 AM Daniel Hahler 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think a new repository like pytest-meta, or pytest-org makes sense -
>>> it is
>>> easy to setup in general, and keeps away noise from the main repo.
>>>
>>> We could create some issue in the main repo to link to it for
>>> transparency.
>>>
>>> But maybe just having an issue for it in the (main) repo is enough
>>> already:
>>>  you get notifications, it can be edited etc.
>>>
>>
>> I think the plan for now is to just have a TIDELIFT.rst (wink Floris) on
>> the main repository with instructions, and the maintainers interested in
>> receiving funds. To update the document we use standard PRs. I believe this
>> will fit for now, but if we find it lacking we can easily move to a
>> separate repository for sure.
>>
>> About automation, they have a simple API for posting new CHANGELOGs:
>> https://tidelift.com/docs/api, so that can be definitely automated.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bruno.
>>
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hi everyone,

I've registered pytest with Tidelift, so it is now officially part of the
platform:  https://tidelift.com/subscription/pkg/pypi-pytest

I've opened a PR documenting what we've discussed here:

https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/pull/5240

Any suggestions are very welcome!

Cheers,

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:05 AM Bruno Oliveira  wrote:

> Hey Daniel,
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 5:57 AM Daniel Hahler 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think a new repository like pytest-meta, or pytest-org makes sense - it
>> is
>> easy to setup in general, and keeps away noise from the main repo.
>>
>> We could create some issue in the main repo to link to it for
>> transparency.
>>
>> But maybe just having an issue for it in the (main) repo is enough
>> already:
>>  you get notifications, it can be edited etc.
>>
>
> I think the plan for now is to just have a TIDELIFT.rst (wink Floris) on
> the main repository with instructions, and the maintainers interested in
> receiving funds. To update the document we use standard PRs. I believe this
> will fit for now, but if we find it lacking we can easily move to a
> separate repository for sure.
>
> About automation, they have a simple API for posting new CHANGELOGs:
> https://tidelift.com/docs/api, so that can be definitely automated.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruno.
>
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hey Daniel,

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 5:57 AM Daniel Hahler 
wrote:

>
> I think a new repository like pytest-meta, or pytest-org makes sense - it
> is
> easy to setup in general, and keeps away noise from the main repo.
>
> We could create some issue in the main repo to link to it for transparency.
>
> But maybe just having an issue for it in the (main) repo is enough already:
>  you get notifications, it can be edited etc.
>

I think the plan for now is to just have a TIDELIFT.rst (wink Floris) on
the main repository with instructions, and the maintainers interested in
receiving funds. To update the document we use standard PRs. I believe this
will fit for now, but if we find it lacking we can easily move to a
separate repository for sure.

About automation, they have a simple API for posting new CHANGELOGs:
https://tidelift.com/docs/api, so that can be definitely automated.

Cheers,
Bruno.
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Daniel Hahler]

On 07.05.19 20:52, Floris Bruynooghe wrote:

 we should make a git repo where we track meta level documentation,
 that way we chould have a ci with credentials run the checks
>>>
>>> +1 to tracking this in a text file in a vcs repo.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed, that's a good idea: we have a formal process already in place to
>> add/remove lifters, PRs. :)
>>
>> Any objections to a `Tidelift.md` in pytest's own repository? A separate
>> repository for now seems overkill.
> 
> I'd bikeshed the choice of capitalisation but otherwise that seems fine
> to me.  ;)
> It can be split off once there's too many meta things in the repo.
> 
>> The file should also contain instructions about the steps required to start
>> receiving funds.

I think a new repository like pytest-meta, or pytest-org makes sense - it is
easy to setup in general, and keeps away noise from the main repo.

We could create some issue in the main repo to link to it for transparency.

But maybe just having an issue for it in the (main) repo is enough already:
 you get notifications, it can be edited etc.


Cheers,
Daniel.
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Daniel Hahler]

On 02.05.19 11:05, Bruno Oliveira wrote:

> > there were no obligations whatsoever after joining the platform other 
> than
> > "maintain the project", which they were already doing anyway. There's no
> > obligation to market the platform in anyway as well (say, being forced 
> to
> > put their logo on the website).
> 
> Their website says otherwise:
> 
> https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/marketing
> 
> "At Tidelift, we're working with maintainers to jointly create a product. 
> As
> with any product offering, we need to tell people the product exists."
> 
> "When you sign up to lift a package and get paid, we're asking for you to 
> keep
> a mention of the Tidelift Subscription at minimum on your project's main 
> "home
> page"—whether that's a dedicated website or simply a README on GitHub. 
> We're
> flexible about the exact wording and format, and happy to consult with 
> you on
> it."
> 
> "But the main reason is that we do need to tell potential subscribers 
> about the
> product, so they can support you by buying it!"
> 
> Hmm you are right, but I think it is more of a suggestion rather than an 
> obligation. 

It reads more like a requirement.

See https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/maintenance:

> One reason for this is that it proves you're a maintainer of the
> project and that there's a consensus among comaintainers to
> participate in Tidelift.

But that would be fine I guess, and could have just the form of a badge
in the list of badges we have already.

>> https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/tasks-overview

> You are right. Fortunately those were very quick to do in my
> experience with pytest-mock. I believe the same amount of work would
> be required by pytest, even if it is a much larger project. 

The only more involving / recurring task appears to be pasting the release notes
over into their dashboard for releases, which is not that hard - and
they plan to automate this.

I like their approach, and am in for also receiving funds.


Cheers,
Daniel.

-- 
https://daniel.hahler.de/
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Floris Bruynooghe]

On Tue 07 May 2019 at 15:36 -0300, Bruno Oliveira wrote:

> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 3:20 PM Floris Bruynooghe  wrote:
>
>> On Mon 06 May 2019 at 23:58 +0200, Ronny Pfannschmidt wrote:
>>
>> > we should make a git repo where we track meta level documentation,
>> > that way we chould have a ci with credentials run the checks
>>
>> +1 to tracking this in a text file in a vcs repo.
>>
>
> Indeed, that's a good idea: we have a formal process already in place to
> add/remove lifters, PRs. :)
>
> Any objections to a `Tidelift.md` in pytest's own repository? A separate
> repository for now seems overkill.

I'd bikeshed the choice of capitalisation but otherwise that seems fine
to me.  ;)
It can be split off once there's too many meta things in the repo.

> The file should also contain instructions about the steps required to start
> receiving funds.

Good idea, the more transparency the better.


Cheers,
Floris
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 3:20 PM Floris Bruynooghe  wrote:

> On Mon 06 May 2019 at 23:58 +0200, Ronny Pfannschmidt wrote:
>
> > we should make a git repo where we track meta level documentation,
> > that way we chould have a ci with credentials run the checks
>
> +1 to tracking this in a text file in a vcs repo.
>

Indeed, that's a good idea: we have a formal process already in place to
add/remove lifters, PRs. :)

Any objections to a `Tidelift.md` in pytest's own repository? A separate
repository for now seems overkill.

The file should also contain instructions about the steps required to start
receiving funds.

> i wonder if tidelift hasn an api published for that
> >
> >
> >> Another question is regarding admins of the Tidelift dashboard. I
> >> volunteer to do it, but would like more people to also be admins to
> >> reduce the bus factor, so other volunteers are appreciated as well.
> >
> > in about 2-3 Months i can Commit to such role as well.
>
> If there's no need for the admins to also be paid I'm happy to help the
> bus factor there too.
>

Sure, thanks Floris!

Cheers,
Bruno

>
> Cheers,
> Floris
>
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Floris Bruynooghe]

On Mon 06 May 2019 at 23:58 +0200, Ronny Pfannschmidt wrote:

> Am 06.05.19 um 16:03 schrieb Bruno Oliveira:
>> Hi Ronny,
>>
>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 11:09 AM Ronny Pfannschmidt 
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> i think its a good idea to have this as a opt-in.
>>
>> Currently a Fair Share Mechanism on a opt in basis seems fair,
>> if we ever hit a situation where someone could have a reasonably
>> set up part/full-time position primarily on pytest we should take
>> a look at how division is fair in that case.
>>
>>
>> Agreed, thanks Ronny.
>>
>> If nobody objects, I plan to move this forward later this week.
>>
>> One question is how do we track which maintainers are opting to 
>> receive funding.
>
>>
>> I'm thinking of opening an issue which lists the contributors 
>> receiving the funding; maintainers are then free to post a comment 
>> indicating if they want to start/stop receiving funding, at which 
>> point we update the original post. Another option would be to use the 
>> Wiki, but we don't receive change notifications so there's a chance of 
>> we getting out of sync with the configuration on Tidelift. Suggestions?
>>
> we should make a git repo where we track meta level documentation,
> that way we chould have a ci with credentials run the checks

+1 to tracking this in a text file in a vcs repo.

> i wonder if tidelift hasn an api published for that
>
>
>> Another question is regarding admins of the Tidelift dashboard. I 
>> volunteer to do it, but would like more people to also be admins to 
>> reduce the bus factor, so other volunteers are appreciated as well.
>
> in about 2-3 Months i can Commit to such role as well.

If there's no need for the admins to also be paid I'm happy to help the
bus factor there too.

Cheers,
Floris
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Ronny Pfannschmidt]

Am 06.05.19 um 16:03 schrieb Bruno Oliveira:

Hi Ronny,

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 11:09 AM Ronny Pfannschmidt 
> wrote:


i think its a good idea to have this as a opt-in.

Currently a Fair Share Mechanism on a opt in basis seems fair,
if we ever hit a situation where someone could have a reasonably
set up part/full-time position primarily on pytest we should take
a look at how division is fair in that case.


Agreed, thanks Ronny.

If nobody objects, I plan to move this forward later this week.

One question is how do we track which maintainers are opting to 
receive funding.




I'm thinking of opening an issue which lists the contributors 
receiving the funding; maintainers are then free to post a comment 
indicating if they want to start/stop receiving funding, at which 
point we update the original post. Another option would be to use the 
Wiki, but we don't receive change notifications so there's a chance of 
we getting out of sync with the configuration on Tidelift. Suggestions?



we should make a git repo where we track meta level documentation,
that way we chould have a ci with credentials run the checks

i wonder if tidelift hasn an api published for that


Another question is regarding admins of the Tidelift dashboard. I 
volunteer to do it, but would like more people to also be admins to 
reduce the bus factor, so other volunteers are appreciated as well.


in about 2-3 Months i can Commit to such role as well.


Cheers Ronny




Cheers,
Bruno.

-- Ronny


Am 03.05.19 um 14:11 schrieb Bruno Oliveira:

Hi Floris,

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:25 PM Floris Bruynooghe mailto:f...@devork.be>> wrote:

Why the rules about active?  Seems complicated and more open to
arguing.  I liked the Pillow guidelines you linked:
https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/contributors can express
interest and https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/core
decides on
split (which I guess can be anything from 0% to 100%).  With
the same
assumption that the core members are reasonable that should
end up as
roughly the same.

Mind you in practice I have no issue with the above proposal
of people
right now, but would also not mind if e.g. hpk or ronny
wanted to be
part right now (I'll pass myself).  Likewise there are
probably cases
where I wouldn't mind people not in core being paid for some
time.


I wrote those "rules" just to come up with a solid proposal in
the e-mail, but I do like yours better. Letting developers opt-in
to a share is fair and reasonable, certainly.

I think we should even always split the funding evenly between
those opting to receive it, to further avoid any arguing on that.

But in general I'm +1, let's make it happen if there's anyone
interested
in getting paid.


Great, let's see what others think.

Cheers,
Bruno.

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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Anthony Sottile]

> Hi Floris,
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:25 PM Floris Bruynooghe  wrote:
>
> > Why the rules about active?  Seems complicated and more open to
> > arguing.  I liked the Pillow guidelines you linked:
> > https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/contributors can express
> > interest and https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/core decides on
> > split (which I guess can be anything from 0% to 100%).  With the same
> > assumption that the core members are reasonable that should end up as
> > roughly the same.
> >
> > Mind you in practice I have no issue with the above proposal of people
> > right now, but would also not mind if e.g. hpk or ronny wanted to be
> > part right now (I'll pass myself).  Likewise there are probably cases
> > where I wouldn't mind people not in core being paid for some time.
> >
>
> I wrote those "rules" just to come up with a solid proposal in the e-mail,
> but I do like yours better. Letting developers opt-in to a share is fair
> and reasonable, certainly.
>
> I think we should even always split the funding evenly between those opting
> to receive it, to further avoid any arguing on that.
>
> But in general I'm +1, let's make it happen if there's anyone interested
> > in getting paid.
> >
>
> Great, let's see what others think.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruno.

I think TideLift seems like a good step in the right direction -- also
agree on the "active" bit being the most difficult to resolve here --
where possible let's adhere to the simplest-as-possible here -- I like
the opt-in approach proposed above :thumbsup:

Anthony
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hi Floris,

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:25 PM Floris Bruynooghe  wrote:

> Why the rules about active?  Seems complicated and more open to
> arguing.  I liked the Pillow guidelines you linked:
> https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/contributors can express
> interest and https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/core decides on
> split (which I guess can be anything from 0% to 100%).  With the same
> assumption that the core members are reasonable that should end up as
> roughly the same.
>
> Mind you in practice I have no issue with the above proposal of people
> right now, but would also not mind if e.g. hpk or ronny wanted to be
> part right now (I'll pass myself).  Likewise there are probably cases
> where I wouldn't mind people not in core being paid for some time.
>

I wrote those "rules" just to come up with a solid proposal in the e-mail,
but I do like yours better. Letting developers opt-in to a share is fair
and reasonable, certainly.

I think we should even always split the funding evenly between those opting
to receive it, to further avoid any arguing on that.

But in general I'm +1, let's make it happen if there's anyone interested
> in getting paid.
>

Great, let's see what others think.

Cheers,
Bruno.
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Floris Bruynooghe]

Hi Bruno,

On Wed 01 May 2019 at 17:25 -0300, Bruno Oliveira wrote:
> So my question is: how do the core maintainers feel about pytest joining
> Tidelift?

Thanks for the wait-and-see approach taken, I likewise have shifted my
opinion on this from some scepticism to mostly positive.  So if there's
a few people interested in pytest joining tidelift I'd be happy to
support this.

> If we are to join, there's the question about how to split the funds over
> the core maintainers. I propose we follow how other projects are handling
> it:
>
> * The amount is split evenly between active maintainers. By "active
> maintainer" here I mean that has been participating in discussions and/or
> contributing PRs "lately". I think every core maintainer is reasonable
> regarding being active or not, so I don't expect misunderstandings here.
>
> * If an inactive maintainer becomes active again, they will start to get
> their share on the next payment (by the end of every month as per Tidelift
> policy). Same if an active maintainer stops activity.
>
> With the above guidelines, I would say the current "active" core
> maintainers are Daniel, Anthony and myself, with Ronny joining back soon.

Why the rules about active?  Seems complicated and more open to
arguing.  I liked the Pillow guidelines you linked:
https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/contributors can express
interest and https://github.com/orgs/pytest-dev/teams/core decides on
split (which I guess can be anything from 0% to 100%).  With the same
assumption that the core members are reasonable that should end up as
roughly the same.

Mind you in practice I have no issue with the above proposal of people
right now, but would also not mind if e.g. hpk or ronny wanted to be
part right now (I'll pass myself).  Likewise there are probably cases
where I wouldn't mind people not in core being paid for some time.


But in general I'm +1, let's make it happen if there's anyone interested
in getting paid.

Cheers,
Floris
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[nicoddemus]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

> Only thought from my side — please, just make sure there's "way back", in
case reality will not match your expectations.

Indeed that's a very important aspect, here's the section of the
agreement[1] regarding that:

- ---
6.2 How and when can this agreement be terminated?

Either party may terminate this agreement (i) with 30 or more days notice,
for any or no reason; or (ii) immediately, if the other party materially
defaults in the performance of any of its obligations hereunder, and such
default is not corrected within 10 business days of notice of the default.
Material defaults may include non-completion of tasks set out in the
Tidelift application, violations of the Lifter Code of Conduct, attempts to
manipulate or game systems (including either those created by Tidelift or
by host open source projects), or any other conduct that could damage the
reputation or business of Tidelift or other Lifters.
- ---

I don't have much legalese experience, but this seems to be reasonable.

[1]: https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/agreement
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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

Em qui, 2 de mai de 2019 04:44, Florian Bruhin 
escreveu:

> Hey,
>
> On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 05:25:58PM -0300, Bruno Oliveira wrote:
> > there were no obligations whatsoever after joining the platform other
> than
> > "maintain the project", which they were already doing anyway. There's no
> > obligation to market the platform in anyway as well (say, being forced to
> > put their logo on the website).
>
> Their website says otherwise:
>
> https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/marketing
>
> "At Tidelift, we're working with maintainers to jointly create a product.
> As
> with any product offering, we need to tell people the product exists."
>
> "When you sign up to lift a package and get paid, we're asking for you to
> keep
> a mention of the Tidelift Subscription at minimum on your project's main
> "home
> page"—whether that's a dedicated website or simply a README on GitHub.
> We're
> flexible about the exact wording and format, and happy to consult with you
> on
> it."
>
> "But the main reason is that we do need to tell potential subscribers
> about the
> product, so they can support you by buying it!"
>

Hmm you are right, but I think it is more of a suggestion rather than an
obligation.

>
> Not sure if I want to think of pytest as a product which should be bought
> by
> subscribers ;)
>

Me neither, but I don't think that is the case... Companies subscribe to
tidelift, and pytest happens to be one of the projects on the platform. We
the maintainers own the project and may unsubscribe from the platform at
any time.

>
> There's also some other "tasks" - not that I'd disagree with them being a
> good
> thing, but it's way more than "no obligations whatsoever" (like looking at
> their dependency scanner, and disclosing security vulnerabilities to them
> in
> their dashboard): https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/tasks-overview


You are right. Fortunately those were very quick to do in my experience
with pytest-mock. I believe the same amount of work would be required by
pytest, even if it is a much larger project.

Other than that, any other opinions Florian? :)

Cheers,
Bruno

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Re: [pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Florian Bruhin]

Hey,

On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 05:25:58PM -0300, Bruno Oliveira wrote:
> there were no obligations whatsoever after joining the platform other than
> "maintain the project", which they were already doing anyway. There's no
> obligation to market the platform in anyway as well (say, being forced to
> put their logo on the website).

Their website says otherwise:

https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/marketing

"At Tidelift, we're working with maintainers to jointly create a product. As
with any product offering, we need to tell people the product exists."

"When you sign up to lift a package and get paid, we're asking for you to keep
a mention of the Tidelift Subscription at minimum on your project's main "home
page"—whether that's a dedicated website or simply a README on GitHub. We're
flexible about the exact wording and format, and happy to consult with you on
it."

"But the main reason is that we do need to tell potential subscribers about the
product, so they can support you by buying it!"

Not sure if I want to think of pytest as a product which should be bought by
subscribers ;)

There's also some other "tasks" - not that I'd disagree with them being a good
thing, but it's way more than "no obligations whatsoever" (like looking at
their dependency scanner, and disclosing security vulnerabilities to them in
their dashboard): https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/tasks-overview

Florian

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[pytest-dev] [core] Tidelift Funding

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hi core maintainers,

Half a year ago Keenan Szulik from Tidelift reached me and Holger about the
possibility of pytest joining Tidelift for funding.

At first our answer was "not right now" for two reasons: we didn't actually
knew the platform (for example what expect in terms of obligations) and how
to split the funding among maintainers.

Some time later Keenan reached us again to see if we had thought about the
idea some more. I reached some other OS maintainers which have joined
Tidelift and the overall response was positive: they were getting paid and
there were no obligations whatsoever after joining the platform other than
"maintain the project", which they were already doing anyway. There's no
obligation to market the platform in anyway as well (say, being forced to
put their logo on the website). Here's a nice discussion of the Pillow
maintainers about how to split the funding:
https://github.com/python-pillow/Pillow/issues/3469.

I decided then to join Tidelift with pytest-mock: it is a small project and
I'm the sole maintainer, so it seemed like a good choice to beta test the
platform. After two months, the overall experience is positive: I didn't
get any demands from Tidelift other than the occasional email (twice a
month) about how the project is doing in terms of Tidelift subscribers, and
I've been paid twice know without fuss. So I think the overall experience
is positive.

So my question is: how do the core maintainers feel about pytest joining
Tidelift?

Here's their license agreement: https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/agreement


If we are to join, there's the question about how to split the funds over
the core maintainers. I propose we follow how other projects are handling
it:

* The amount is split evenly between active maintainers. By "active
maintainer" here I mean that has been participating in discussions and/or
contributing PRs "lately". I think every core maintainer is reasonable
regarding being active or not, so I don't expect misunderstandings here.

* If an inactive maintainer becomes active again, they will start to get
their share on the next payment (by the end of every month as per Tidelift
policy). Same if an active maintainer stops activity.

With the above guidelines, I would say the current "active" core
maintainers are Daniel, Anthony and myself, with Ronny joining back soon.

The amount involved is not much, but it is an extra which is nice to have
for (what I can see) work we are already doing anyway. It is also possible
to cancel the subscription for any time given 30 days notice.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Bruno.
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