Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> mode = "python-dev reader" > > Please excuse me if I'm wrong here, > but I think python-dev just isn't the right place to discuss this topic, > because it's about 3rd party packages and it's got nothing to do with > the development *of the python language itself*, but generated a lot of > traffic. +1. The place to discuss pypi is catalog-sig. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> That's useful from a user perspective. Or is it? It's useful from a > user perspective, until that issue is fixed. Then what? Is it still > useful? Can the commenter remove it? Yes. > Can they get notified it's changed? Yes. > Can the maintainer say "this is fixed/changed?" Yes. > I never look at the PyPI pages for stuff I create. Which means if > someone is using it for support, they're wasting their time. (Why > would I look at it? I know what the project is for and where to get > it! :) (and also PyPI isn't the prime download for it either - so the > download stats are irrelevant to me) I doubt I'm alone, so how many > people's time are wasted asking questions there ? You'll get an email when someone comments, so you don't have to look at the page. > I suppose, personally, I'm dubious about the idea of having unchanging > comments and ratings associated with projects which are changing and > improving - that feels like a mismatch. That's why the comments are per-release. > If there's interest, and if there's a survey to be done, I could > forward a link to a survey through that twitterfeed - which I suspect > is a mix of users of PyPI and uploaders to PyPI. Feel free to annouce it on Twitter - I don't use that system myself. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
>> I've posted a tweet to the ThePSF account about the poll. If the poll >> runs for a week or two, that would provide time for word of the poll >> to propagate through Twitter, blogs, etc. > > You should also make an announcement on python-announce. On catalog-sig (the place where PyPI was discussed in recent years), I mentioned that I would announce it today, which I now have. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> I only found the poll by accident by wondering randomly what might > change if I hit the login using open id button. So you can only vote > in the poll if you a) get told about it b) realise you need to create > an account to login and use in order to vote. I realise there's good > reasons for that, but I think it's a mistake. (There's no guidance > that you need to log in to see the poll for example) Why do you say that? "If you want to vote, you need to login to PyPI (on the right)." If that isn't clear to you, please propose a rephrasing (English is not my native language, nor the native language of MAL who proposed this specific wording) Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI front page
> Ben Finney benfinney.id.au> writes: >> There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the >> PyPI website. > > Speaking of which, why is it that http://pypi.python.org/pypi and > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ (note the ending slash) return different contents > (the latter being very voluminous)? I always mistake one for the other when > entering the URL directly. As Ian says: setuptools relies on it. It's part of the specification of the package index. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'
On Nov 12, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my views on the state of the standard libraries and to make them state-of-the-art..! ;) If I understand correctly, you want the (current) standard library to be separated from the Python implementation, and available separately. Interestingly enough, people are very much split over whether that would be a good thing or not. Some like it the way Python does, some dislike it (and some quite strongly so). In any case, many Python users consider it a good thing that it comes "with batteries included", ie. with no need to add extra stuff for many tasks. Some of the Python maintainers have recently started objecting to this setup, asking that the standard library should be split into separate packages that are released and distributed independent of Python. Others of us feel strongly that such a change should not be made. So don't expect any immediate change to happen. Regards, Martin Martin is correct; this came up on distutils-sig a month or so ago; I proposed offering multiple downloads "with batteries" and "without batteries (with the batteries on the side)". We decided as a group to hold off on that until further in the future. jesse It's also worth noting that there are three issues with respect to standard library packaging which are all orthologous: * Packaging for metadata: The standard library could be packaged so that there is consistent metadata about the distributions which compromise the standard library (version, author, maintainer, etc). This could be useful so that it would be easier to see at a glance which packages changed between any two Python releases. For example, I have a script which compares two working sets of packages and generates a web page with a colour-coded list of differences between those two working sets, based on the size of the version number bump, e.g. major.medium.minor (doesn't work with packages which use odd version numbering schemes). I've used this to compare working sets between different Grok releases or Plone releases to help see where the activity or major API changes might be happening inside any given Zope-based release. However, this script only works on 80% of the code, the other 20% is in the standard library, which is currently a black-box. Also, if PEP 376 is accepted, then the standard library will be inviolation of the stanard metadata for installed packages unless this happens. * Packaging for release: The standard library could be packaged so that releases happen on PyPI. This could be useful so that it's easier to consume newer versions of a package before those packages are included in the next Python release. It could also make Python upgrades easier, as you could hold-back packages which might otherwise break an application upon upgrade. I happened to find a bug in a standard library package today, and currently my option is to: Submit bug report to PyPI, wait for Python 2.7 release, then wait for Plone to update to Python 2.7. I'm looking at many years before this fix goes into my production application, so in the meantime I need to maintain a work-around for the bug as well account for the day when this bug is fixed. It makes a mess of the code. If it was possible to release this package on PyPI, this could reasonably happen in a few days or at worst a couple months. The setup.py for that package could be updated to require the newer version of the package, and the workaround could be removed from the code. * Packaging for resizing: The standard library could be packaged so that it could be made smaller or larger, or there could be different sized standard libraries made with different Python releases. So there are benefits to packaging the standard library which would be useful, for reasons which would have no impact on the "batteries included" aspect of Python. Plus, if the standard library was packaged and releases were made on PyPI (in addition to including them normally in the Python releases), we *might* be able to use PyPI's commenting infrastructure on this packages (~evil grin~). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the > PyPI website. You really should participate in the proper forum for the discussion of PyPI: catalog-sig. Then you would have noticed that I said I'll announce the poll later (i.e. today), which I'm doing right now. Feel free to announce it places where I didn't. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:54:50 am Ben Finney wrote: > "Martin v. Löwis" writes: > > PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the > > package authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, > > it's primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user > > opinions). > > No-one here is asking for “banning the user opinions”. That's EXACTLY what people have asked for: the ability to ban user comments. Sure, some of them say they want to "opt-out", or "disable comments", but that's just a polite way of saying the same thing. Some of them -- 44% of the people who have responded to the poll as of a minute ago -- want to prohibit *all* comments, even for packages whose authors wants to receive comments. WTF? The original poster (Ludvig Ericson) started this thread insisting that there were only two acceptable options: prohibit all comments on PyPI, or make it opt-in. I quote: "As I see it, there are only two ways to fix these misguided steps of development: throw them out, or make them opt-in settings." > As already > pointed out, users are not mute; there are plenty of places for them > to have a voice. Ben, you've been talking recently about the dangers of fragmenting the Python community into multiple forums, but that's what you're arguing for on PyPI. I'm a user, I'm interested in a package, so I look for it on PyPI. I want to know what others think about it, before I commit to downloading it, installing it and seeing if it meets my needs. Instead of looking in the One Obvious place, the PyPI page, you want me to go off looking for blogs, mailing lists, or other forums, which might not even exist. Part of the value of a centralised place for comments on a package is that I can see whether other users agree with the comment or not. If I see a comment "This doesn't even work", and ten other comments saying "No, this is great, but you need to transmogrify the phlogiston first to get it to work", I've learned something useful. But if I stumble across a single blog that says "This doesn't work", I've actually been given negative knowledge: I've learned something that just isn't so. What *actual* problem are we trying to solve here? Is there a problem with spam on PyPI? No. Is there a problem with the comments being wildly biased, either for or against? Apparently not. Is there a problem with people using the comment system as a help forum? No. So what's the problem we're trying to solve? > I understand the mood here to be, not that user feedback is not > wanted, but rather that PyPI in particular should be a place for > *objective* data about a package. Who is responsible for gather this "objective" data? How do we decide what is objective and what isn't? People can't even agree on the validity of benchmarks! This is open source. The power of the bazaar, remember? I'm amazed at how many people are not just disinterested in, but actively hostile, to even *useful* comments from users. That's fine. If you, the package author, don't care about comments from users, don't read them. But they're not there for *your* benefit, they're there for the benefit of other users. -- Steven D'Aprano ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Steven D'Aprano writes: > In my opinion, the community is best served by a good comment/review > system, one which avoids the worst trolling, and allows authors the > right of reply, but does not allow authors to censor inconvenient but > honest reviews. I think you're right. I also think, though, that the community is best served by an objective repository of third-party Python packages, with information derived only directly from the package itself and objective data. That allows the least barrier to having a package maintainer want to register their package with such a service, which is in the interest of having it be as complete a registry of packages as can be. A community forum, on the other hand, has many characteristics that will be *disincentives* to a package manager for having their package appear there. It's never going to attract as many package maintainers as an impartial, objective registry; the many reasons already given here as to why some package maintainers *don't* want their packages in such a system are evidence of that. Those two purposes — community forum, impartial registry — are in conflict. I think PyPI has clearly already been serving the role of the registry, and that any community forum should be quite separate to encourage those who don't like it to still register their packages at PyPI. -- \“I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance | `\ any day.” —Douglas Adams | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:42:37 am Terry Reedy wrote: > Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low > numbers. If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the > disgruntled, then the ratings/reviews will be biased. The package author who started this thread, Ludvig Ericson, had (as of last night) two comments, one positive, one negative. This admittedly tiny sample doesn't suggest to me that PyPI is suffering from the problem of biased ratings. -- Steven D'Aprano ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:27:48 am Ludvig Ericson wrote: > On 12 nov 2009, at 14:38, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote: > >> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments > >> which I cannot control as a package author on my very own > >> packages? That's just absurd. > > > > No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software > > somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say > > about your software. > > ... on my own package's page. It's your package. It's the community's page about your package. I think of PyPI as a community-owned noticeboard. Its primary purpose is to allow the community to find good packages -- the benefit to the community is why it exists, not the benefit to the author of the package. In my opinion, the community is best served by a good comment/review system, one which avoids the worst trolling, and allows authors the right of reply, but does not allow authors to censor inconvenient but honest reviews. -- Steven D'Aprano ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Steven D'Aprano writes: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:54:24 am Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't > > improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at > > least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a > > user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings. > > As a user, I'd be more likely to trust a module with no reviews/ratings > than one where the author disabled reviews/ratings. The first > says "nobody hated it enough to complain", the second one says "the > author is trying to hide something". Agreed, that's how I'd feel (and it's important to note that this would be an emotional, not necessarily entirely rational, reaction) as a user also. Package maintainers who also see that users would feel that way, and who agree with the purpose of PyPI as a common repository of all third-party packages, but who *don't* want to deal with PyPI's implementation of comments (whatever that may be at any time), have a clear option: to avoid hosting the package at PyPI at all. That's harmful, and I don't want it; but I don't see an alternative for such a maintainer. -- \ “Dvorak users of the world flgkd!” —Kirsten Chevalier, | `\rec.humor.oracle.d | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:54:24 am Guido van Rossum wrote: > I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't > improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at > least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a > user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings. As a user, I'd be more likely to trust a module with no reviews/ratings than one where the author disabled reviews/ratings. The first says "nobody hated it enough to complain", the second one says "the author is trying to hide something". -- Steven D'Aprano ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Jacob Kaplan-Moss writes: > If the poll ended this moment, how would you judge? Would it just be > mob rule (no comments)? […] Even though that's my preferred option, I *don't* want it chosen on the basis of a poll result, but on the basis of evidence and reasoned argument. > On a deeper level, why are we voting at all? When else in the history > of Python have we used popular vote to decide questions of this > nature? +1 -- \ “I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I | `\consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no | _o__) superhuman authority behind it.” —Albert Einstein, letter, 1953 | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
mode = "python-dev reader" Please excuse me if I'm wrong here, but I think python-dev just isn't the right place to discuss this topic, because it's about 3rd party packages and it's got nothing to do with the development *of the python language itself*, but generated a lot of traffic. mode = "package developer" I personally added a PyPI entry for my open source project just because it's there and it's a more or less standard, like CPAN in the Perl world, so I hoped others would perhaps find it there. On the other hand, if I am searching for software myself, I don't look at PyPI - I just use G**gle. I don't think PyPI needs any new features. For the "developer's social web" that support the feature, there are other good places, for example take a look at http://www.ohloh.net Henning ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:41 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. I'm curious: what criteria will you use to judge the outcome of the poll? That is, how will you translate the results of the poll into action? Right now, the results stand as Allow ratings and comments on all packages (status quo) 13 Allow package owners to disallow comments (ratings unmodified). 17 Allow comments, but only send them to package owners (ratings unmodified). 2 Disallow comments (ratings unmodified). 11 Disallow ratings and comments (status three months ago).36 If the poll ended this moment, how would you judge? Would it just be mob rule (no comments)? Or some sort of spectrum -- there's 32 for comments in some capacity and 47 against, so does somehow translate to ratings but not comments? Or a weighted average? The average is 3.51 (1 being "allow comments" and 5 being "no comments")... what does *that* mean? On a deeper level, why are we voting at all? When else in the history of Python have we used popular vote to decide questions of this nature? Jacob [Martin, sorry for the repeat; I sent this privately first by mistake.] ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
2009/11/12 Guido van Rossum : > If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user > comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or > Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place > to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders) > of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot > of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a > way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many > inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk > back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it > away. Sure. But then we need moderation, spam filtering, flagging, etc. We need to implement a whole discussion forum basically. We also need to mark comments with the version they are relevant for and allow authors to mark that comments are not longer valid. In fact, we get a bug-tracker as well. Maybe we should just install a trac per package? :-) -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Michael Sparks wrote: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Ben Finney > wrote: >> "Martin v. Löwis" writes: >> Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of the user? >>> Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. >> There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the >> PyPI website. >> >> I only know about the poll because you said there was one, and I went >> hunting for it. The front page of PyPI is not one I ever visit, as a >> package maintainer; I'll visit the pages for the packages I maintain, or >> make a specific search of packages I'm looking for. >> >> So, the poll's audience is limited to those who visit the front page >> (which is hardly ever necessary for package maintainers), and those who >> already know it exists (e.g. through this discussion thread). You'll be >> missing the opinions of those maintainers who, like the OP of this >> thread, only discovered the behaviour much later. > > This poll is only visible if you're logged into PyPI. This strikes me > as a mistake. I went looking for a poll and didn't see it. > > I only found the poll by accident by wondering randomly what might > change if I hit the login using open id button. So you can only vote > in the poll if you a) get told about it b) realise you need to create > an account to login and use in order to vote. I realise there's good > reasons for that, but I think it's a mistake. (There's no guidance > that you need to log in to see the poll for example) I can see the information about the poll, and a link to view the results, without logging in. http://pypi.python.org/pypi (second paragraph there). That paragraph tells you that you need to log in to vote in the poll. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkr825UACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ74YwCgsMU6UvoF6DZQP0If5yDV8j6J GQIAnRVGlH0onr5nQwBFYUfGl/ni0SaR =Ba00 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:44:42AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the PyPI website. I've posted a tweet to the ThePSF account about the poll. If the poll runs for a week or two, that would provide time for word of the poll to propagate through Twitter, blogs, etc. You should also make an announcement on python-announce. -- Robert Kern "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." -- Umberto Eco ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 382 status
2009/11/11 "Martin v. Löwis" : >> I was wondering what's the status of PEP 382. Is anyone (MvL?) is >> going to start to work on its implementation for Python 2.7/3.2 >> inclusion ? > > I'll be working on an implementation, but contributions are welcome. > Unfortunately, I'm really short on free software time recently (and > keep hoping that this will improve). > > One thing that I always wondered about is the status of importlib. > Will that be used in 3.2? > I doubt I will get to that as I suspect most people would rather I spent my time on getting the Hg conversion to happen or trying to help ramp up 3to2. So importlib will more than likely stay just a standard library package for 3.2 (unfortunately as that means making this work requires changes in two places, although prototyping in importlib should be the easiest thing to get working). -Brett > In addition, I still owe a few answers to comments from the previous > discussion. > > Regards, > Martin > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org > ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Michael Sparks writes: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Ben Finney > wrote: > > So, the poll's audience is limited to those who visit the front page > > (which is hardly ever necessary for package maintainers), and those > > who already know it exists (e.g. through this discussion thread). > > You'll be missing the opinions of those maintainers who, like the OP > > of this thread, only discovered the behaviour much later. > > This poll is only visible if you're logged into PyPI. This strikes me > as a mistake. I went looking for a poll and didn't see it. The mistake, I think, is having a poll basically asking “what should the PyPI maintainers do?”, instead of weighing evidence and reasoned arguments. A poll may be good for gathering preferences and opinion, but it's a poor way to make a *decision*. -- \ “I busted a mirror and got seven years bad luck, but my lawyer | `\thinks he can get me five.” —Steven Wright | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI front page
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Ben Finney benfinney.id.au> writes: > > > > There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the > > PyPI website. > > Speaking of which, why is it that http://pypi.python.org/pypi and > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ (note the ending slash) return different > contents > (the latter being very voluminous)? I always mistake one for the other when > entering the URL directly. > easy_install replied on the behavior of /pypi/ (it uses the long list to do case-insensitive searches). Someone changed it, easy_install broke, and a compromise was to keep /pypi/ the way it was (but not /pypi). Probably this could be removed, as the /simple/ index is already case-insensitive, so easy_install shouldn't have to hit /pypi/ at all. -- Ian Bicking | http://blog.ianbicking.org | http://topplabs.org/civichacker ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:44:42AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: > There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the > PyPI website. I've posted a tweet to the ThePSF account about the poll. If the poll runs for a week or two, that would provide time for word of the poll to propagate through Twitter, blogs, etc. --amk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Ben Finney wrote: > "Martin v. Löwis" writes: > >> > Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better >> > system that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and >> > those of the user? >> >> Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. > > There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the > PyPI website. > > I only know about the poll because you said there was one, and I went > hunting for it. The front page of PyPI is not one I ever visit, as a > package maintainer; I'll visit the pages for the packages I maintain, or > make a specific search of packages I'm looking for. > > So, the poll's audience is limited to those who visit the front page > (which is hardly ever necessary for package maintainers), and those who > already know it exists (e.g. through this discussion thread). You'll be > missing the opinions of those maintainers who, like the OP of this > thread, only discovered the behaviour much later. This poll is only visible if you're logged into PyPI. This strikes me as a mistake. I went looking for a poll and didn't see it. I only found the poll by accident by wondering randomly what might change if I hit the login using open id button. So you can only vote in the poll if you a) get told about it b) realise you need to create an account to login and use in order to vote. I realise there's good reasons for that, but I think it's a mistake. (There's no guidance that you need to log in to see the poll for example) Michael. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:27:47 +0100, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Not sure; you would have to ask Grig. Apparently, there is a service > running somewhere that computes cheesecake data for PyPI packages; > it also sends them to PyPI. People have expressed to concerns that any > kind of ranking based on kwalitee sounds fairly useless. Of course. "Package Quality Metrics" would be a much better term. Still, the ideas they had were good. CPAN runs such a bot on all packages daily. Obviously they do it on seperate machines. Introducing any change is going to have people complain. Checking package authors packages is much like a dentist check. It mightn't be totally pleasant while its happening. But then if it isn't done, a user can then reflect and ask why nothing is being done to look at overall package quality. Which is currently the case. Processing so many packages for so many platforms is a monstrous task. Nobody should get the idea it can be done by the weekend. It will take a few months... well at the rate I am going anyway.. David ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] PyPI front page
Ben Finney benfinney.id.au> writes: > > There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the > PyPI website. Speaking of which, why is it that http://pypi.python.org/pypi and http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ (note the ending slash) return different contents (the latter being very voluminous)? I always mistake one for the other when entering the URL directly. cheers Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Jesse Noller wrote: ... > Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this > is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi > until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It > changes. Ditto, but maybe for different reasons. Personally, I'm interested in feedback - good and bad. That's the reason I choose odd names for projects, since it means I can create a google alert to find out random comments in bizarre locations (hence why when you wrote a blog entry, I responded). However, the reason I released anything onto PyPI (and relunctantly at that) was due to a random complaint that a user couldn't go "easy_install " and have it pick up code from PyPI. Going along with comments made elsewhere (by Guido I think) saying "but user's like reviews and rating when someone publishes a book", probably using Amazon, B&N & similar as examples, I agree they do. The closest equivalent here though IMO is somewhere like lulu.com - where people self-publish. Like PyPI that has a ratings system and comments, so you could say if it "works" there it should work for PyPI. The problem though is that software is much more mutable that a book. Taking the example listed - a comment added here: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/spypam/1.0 There's a note: "Inadequate docstrings give no clue about function arguments. Dumps core when I call it after reading the source to figure out the API. Cannot recommend." That's useful from a user perspective. Or is it? It's useful from a user perspective, until that issue is fixed. Then what? Is it still useful? Can the commenter remove it? Can they get notified it's changed? Can the maintainer say "this is fixed/changed?" I never look at the PyPI pages for stuff I create. Which means if someone is using it for support, they're wasting their time. (Why would I look at it? I know what the project is for and where to get it! :) (and also PyPI isn't the prime download for it either - so the download stats are irrelevant to me) I doubt I'm alone, so how many people's time are wasted asking questions there ? *shrug* I suppose, personally, I'm dubious about the idea of having unchanging comments and ratings associated with projects which are changing and improving - that feels like a mismatch. (Unlike a book, which generally is unchanging or has a separate edition and separate set of ratings and reviews) Incidentally, and perhaps probably more relevant to the discussion than my random opinion - some time back I created the twitter id http://twitter.com/pypi - using twitterfeed - since I wanted an easier way of following additions to pypi. There's currently 774 people following that. If there's interest, and if there's a survey to be done, I could forward a link to a survey through that twitterfeed - which I suspect is a mix of users of PyPI and uploaders to PyPI. (On a secondary note, if there's someone else who thinks they should own it, please let me know - it was a random convenience that people seem to find useful :-) Michael. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
"Martin v. Löwis" writes: > > Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better > > system that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and > > those of the user? > > Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. There's a problem with the poll's placement: on the front page of the PyPI website. I only know about the poll because you said there was one, and I went hunting for it. The front page of PyPI is not one I ever visit, as a package maintainer; I'll visit the pages for the packages I maintain, or make a specific search of packages I'm looking for. So, the poll's audience is limited to those who visit the front page (which is hardly ever necessary for package maintainers), and those who already know it exists (e.g. through this discussion thread). You'll be missing the opinions of those maintainers who, like the OP of this thread, only discovered the behaviour much later. -- \ “I do not believe in forgiveness as it is preached by the | `\church. We do not need the forgiveness of God, but of each | _o__)other and of ourselves.” —Robert G. Ingersoll | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
David Lyon wrote: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:54 +0100, "Martin v. Löwis" > wrote: > >> http://pycheesecake.org/ > > Ok, so what is the current status on it? Not sure; you would have to ask Grig. Apparently, there is a service running somewhere that computes cheesecake data for PyPI packages; it also sends them to PyPI. People have expressed to concerns that any kind of ranking based on kwalitee sounds fairly useless. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:54 +0100, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > http://pycheesecake.org/ Ok, so what is the current status on it? David ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Hi All, What do people think about this idea? I've actually started writing something to try to to do this and create sn automated scoring system for the packages on pypi. It was started last week based on Guido's comments on the distutils mailing list. > Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on > objective criteria? > > E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y, > Z, works on windows, etc? > > Quality can be measured. Me being a total failure and not reading the > docs, and failing to install something is subjective. I don't disagree > with the goal of giving *users* a voice, but is PyPI the right place > for that? How many moderators do we have to watch comments? Can other > users down vote comments by people which are simply *wrong*? > > Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system > that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of > the user? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > I've found it useful to realise that, from the perspective of a > program/website/feedback form, etc., the user has a tiny brain: [...] Actually it's the other way around. It's the program that has the tiny brain. :-) -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
David Lyon wrote: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:44:30 +0100, Xavier Morel > wrote: >> If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the >> package on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests > can >> be included as well but given the number of testing solutions (and > coverage >> discovery associated) that would be quite an undertaking. > > I'm working on such a thing in my spare time. Yep, it's a big time > commitment. > > http://bitbucket.org/djlyon/pypi-package-testbot/ See also http://pycheesecake.org/ Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:44:30 +0100, Xavier Morel wrote: > If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the > package on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests can > be included as well but given the number of testing solutions (and coverage > discovery associated) that would be quite an undertaking. I'm working on such a thing in my spare time. Yep, it's a big time commitment. http://bitbucket.org/djlyon/pypi-package-testbot/ > And as far as docs go, what would be the criterion? "Has documentation"? Yes. > How do you define "has documentation"? Has auto-extracted documentation > from the docstrings? Yes. > Has a README? Yes Has a complete sphinx package? I don't think there's much that you can rate "objectively" about documentation. You can't do it objectively, but you can use a computer to count the number of lines and come up with a score. Daivd ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Masklinn writes: > Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather > than stupid. I've found it useful to realise that, from the perspective of a program/website/feedback form, etc., the user has a tiny brain: but that's only because the user's big brain is *not* solely dedicated to the program/website/feedback form, etc. When designing a UI, one must realise that, though users are generally possessed of big brains, only a *tiny* portion of that brain can be assumed to be available for the UI; the rest is focussed on stuff the user actually cares about at the time. Assuming the user is stupid or lazy is bad, since it's false most of the time. Assuming that they're only willing to put forth as much attention or effort as absolutely necessary to complete the task, is *good*, since that turns out to be true most of the time. -- \ “It's easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do | `\ is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument | _o__)will play itself.” —Johann Sebastian Bach | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
"Martin v. Löwis" writes: > PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the > package authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's > primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions). No-one here is asking for “banning the user opinions”. As already pointed out, users are not mute; there are plenty of places for them to have a voice. I understand the mood here to be, not that user feedback is not wanted, but rather that PyPI in particular should be a place for *objective* data about a package. > I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll. I hope the poll question will not be as biased as the above mischaracterisation. If you ask “do you want feedback from users?” or something similar, that's missing the point entirely, and a “yes” answer doesn't speak to this discussion at all. -- \“Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code | `\ will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live.” —John | _o__) F. Woods | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:37 , Martin v. Löwis wrote: >> Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than >> stupid. > Then they likely won't comment on PyPI. To do so, they have to setup an > account (which most don't have). They can't post comments without an > account. Fair point ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:35 , Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Masklinn masklinn.net> writes: >> >> And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since >> you're here anyway, or might go >> as far as telling you that if you're not going to help you might as well not >> answer. > As I said, you are regarding the user as an idiot or as a troll. I don't think so, but we might disagree on either definition, or both. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:34 , Jesse Noller wrote: > That's because as an author/maintainer - we have methods of giving > feedback and communication. Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on > objective criteria? > > E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y, > Z, works on windows, etc? Because there are lots of subjective criteria which are still very useful to users? The feeling of the API, the completeness of the library or its flexibility, etc…? If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the package on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests can be included as well but given the number of testing solutions (and coverage discovery associated) that would be quite an undertaking. And as far as docs go, what would be the criterion? "Has documentation"? How do you define "has documentation"? Has auto-extracted documentation from the docstrings? Has a README? Has a complete sphinx package? I don't think there's much that you can rate "objectively" about documentation. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> But you can bet your ass that if PyPI isn't made a good, neutral, > central resource I'm going to leave for one that is. Do you really > want a flood of package maintainers de-listing their packages just so > that things work the way you think they should? > > I should clarify that I'm speaking personally and not in any official > "Django capacity." I don't have personal control over whether or not > Django would de-list from PyPI. Django's run by a community process, > and I'd listen to the voice of the community before doing anything > unilaterally. It's a good idea, this community process. We might want > to apply it to PyPI one of these days. And indeed, I do: feel free to participate in the poll. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system > that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of > the user? Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll. Nobody's asking you to "submit" to anything! We're asking for the control to decide ourselves. Look, there's already a large faction of people who just want to write off PyPI and launch our own package server instead. I'm nearly on board, but we've had enough fragmentation in the packaging world lately, and I don't want to make the project worse. But you can bet your ass that if PyPI isn't made a good, neutral, central resource I'm going to leave for one that is. Do you really want a flood of package maintainers de-listing their packages just so that things work the way you think they should? I should clarify that I'm speaking personally and not in any official "Django capacity." I don't have personal control over whether or not Django would de-list from PyPI. Django's run by a community process, and I'd listen to the voice of the community before doing anything unilaterally. It's a good idea, this community process. We might want to apply it to PyPI one of these days. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than > stupid. Then they likely won't comment on PyPI. To do so, they have to setup an account (which most don't have). They can't post comments without an account. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Masklinn masklinn.net> writes: > > And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since > you're here anyway, or might go > as far as telling you that if you're not going to help you might as well not > answer. As I said, you are regarding the user as an idiot or as a troll. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers? > > If I understand that term correctly, it's about disguise: how would > I be able to answer that question? It's unprovable. But I could see a group of people easily coordinating large amounts of negative, or positive feedback targeting particular packages, that looks legit. I know any "end user" rating and feedback system can be gamed. Just look at the reviews of milk on amazon. >> What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out? > > PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the package > authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's > primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions). > > I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll. That's because as an author/maintainer - we have methods of giving feedback and communication. Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on objective criteria? E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y, Z, works on windows, etc? Quality can be measured. Me being a total failure and not reading the docs, and failing to install something is subjective. I don't disagree with the goal of giving *users* a voice, but is PyPI the right place for that? How many moderators do we have to watch comments? Can other users down vote comments by people which are simply *wrong*? Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of the user? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Martin v. Löwis v.loewis.de> writes: >> I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these >> comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they >> are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of >> message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list, >> or any other kind of support forum. > > Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that > the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about > the > package? Done! Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
When SourceForge started having comments and ratings, I was a little upset at having poor negative comments there (like "not work!"). But after it has been running for a while it appears useful. I suppose it helps that Scintilla has 88% thumbs up from 134 respondents. Because there is voting on comments, the more useful comments have bubbled onto the front page. As the system is used more, you'll see a wider range of comments on projects and you'll be able to tell more from them. It should be seen as a completely separate thing to the existing fora and trackers that each project has. While you want people to become involved in your project, many are just having a quick look and don't want to sign up for mailing lists or to interact with project members. They may just want to quickly comment about whether it was suitable or not. Neil ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:15 , Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Masklinn masklinn.net> writes: >> >> On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> >>> Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning > that >>> the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about > the >>> package? >> Because users don't read warnings. > I don't like assuming users are idiots. You don't have to. It's about expediency and care (or lack thereof) rather than idiocy. User(*) wants a solution, user finds place where he could ask, user asks. Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than stupid. >> The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the >> aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he didn't get >> help following his comment. > And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a warning in > the > first place. And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since you're here anyway, or might go as far as telling you that if you're not going to help you might as well not answer. *: not every user, but I believe a significant minority at least. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Antoine Pitrou writes: > Masklinn masklinn.net> writes: > > Because users don't read warnings. > > I don't like assuming users are idiots. You don't have to. You need only assume that users are busy, focussed on a task (“leave feedback”), and will therefore unconsciously filter out *anything* that is not the simplest path to complete that task. > > The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the > > aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he > > didn't get help following his comment. > > And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a > warning in the first place. I don't like having systems which make it easier to do the wrong thing than do the right thing, then blame those users for taking the obvious path to their goal. -- \ “I'm a great lover, I'll bet.” —Emo Philips | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers? If I understand that term correctly, it's about disguise: how would I be able to answer that question? > What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out? PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the package authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions). I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Masklinn masklinn.net> writes: > > On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that > > the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about the > > package? > Because users don't read warnings. I don't like assuming users are idiots. > The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the > aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he didn't get > help following his comment. And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a warning in the first place. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:47 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain >> through the comments. > > As this theory has been repeated often here, I decided to go through all > comments and classify them, as: > - good: (overall) positive evaluation (possibly including minor > criticism/wishes) > - bad: negative evaluation, complaint, bug report > - neutral: statement of fact (typically in response to some help > request) > > Here is what I got: > - good: 20 > - bad: 11 > - neutral: 9 > > So far, the theory that only complainers will comment cannot be > substantiated by facts. Of course, it could be that all the negative > comments come from easy_install users, and all the positive comments > from people who browse through PyPI... Notice however that such > easy_install users often would have to create a PyPI account first. > > Regards, > Martin And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers? What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out? I'd rather run a pypi competitor at this point. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that > the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about > the > package? Because users don't read warnings. The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he didn't get help following his comment. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Martin v. Löwis v.loewis.de> writes: > > I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these > comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they > are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of > message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list, > or any other kind of support forum. Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about the package? Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Ben Finney wrote: > "Martin v. Löwis" writes: > >> Nick Coghlan wrote: >>> Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the >>> project's own support site or mailing list. >> It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use >> comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that >> nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet >> the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that. > > I'm reading “the project's own mailing list” as a fine place to do > exactly that: discuss the project. No no no: discuss with whom? The commenter may not want to discuss anything about the project, let alone with the package author. If it's a positive comment, you may likely only get "me too", anyway; if it's a negative comment, perhaps the commenter has already given up on the package, and just wants to warn other users. It's those other users that then will have problems finding reviews on the mailing list. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: >> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to >> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings. > > Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know > how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on > PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live > happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate > CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-) > > [...] >> What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to >> create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with >> glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how >> to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc? > > Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial > solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store, > etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just > customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project, > actually. The appstore analogy actually helps Jesse's case" "iFart in your general direction." (iFart is the top-rated app). Popularity and quality aren't related in any direct fashion. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkr8kZMACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ4ScQCeJtYU9KkAq2K1Dkk0jK9ffHvB IuwAoNBWpMPFR1YsdhQN31oS1L5m91UL =qmmQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 12 Nov 2009, at 23:44 , James Y Knight wrote: > On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Masklinn wrote: >> On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote: >>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote: I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more* sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”. >>> >>> One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. >>> There's no "comments" feature >> There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ for >> instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a pretty >> interesting example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in fact). > > Ah, I see. I totally managed to miss that...I guess that's an interesting > example of a bad web ui. :) I'm not sure it's so bad, it's just that it's at the root of the "cpan package" rather than in the POD (just click on "BDB-mysql" in the breadcrumb trail, landing at http://search.cpan.org/~capttofu/DBD-mysql/). Interestingly, the link to cpanratings from BDB-mysql is broken and yields a 404, even though its CPAN page lists 5 reviews and a score of ~3.5. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
"Martin v. Löwis" writes: > Nick Coghlan wrote: > > Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the > > project's own support site or mailing list. > > It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use > comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that > nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet > the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that. I'm reading “the project's own mailing list” as a fine place to do exactly that: discuss the project. -- \ “If nothing changes, everything will remain the same.” —Barne's | `\ Law | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain > through the comments. As this theory has been repeated often here, I decided to go through all comments and classify them, as: - good: (overall) positive evaluation (possibly including minor criticism/wishes) - bad: negative evaluation, complaint, bug report - neutral: statement of fact (typically in response to some help request) Here is what I got: - good: 20 - bad:11 - neutral: 9 So far, the theory that only complainers will comment cannot be substantiated by facts. Of course, it could be that all the negative comments come from easy_install users, and all the positive comments from people who browse through PyPI... Notice however that such easy_install users often would have to create a PyPI account first. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Masklinn wrote: On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote: On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote: I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more* sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”. One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. There's no "comments" feature There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ for instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a pretty interesting example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in fact). Ah, I see. I totally managed to miss that...I guess that's an interesting example of a bad web ui. :) James ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Guido van Rossum writes: > Maybe that's an example of a user who doesn't know how to use those > support channels? I know I wouldn't bother with IRC even if it was the > only way to get in touch with users, I hate it with a vengeance. > (Though arguably I'm a special case -- whenever I show up everyone > goes "h, Guido is here." :-) And I might not want to sign up for a > mailing list for a casual question. And what exactly is a "forum"? By my understanding of English, a “forum” is any assembly for open discussion of a topic. Mailing lists, IRC channels, Usenet groups, and gatherings in a pub all merit the term “forum”; and no crappy web applications get to usurp its meaning exclusively. (Nothing to do with PyPI, just an appeal to keeping terms useful.) -- \ “I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.” | `\ —Groucho Marx | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote: > On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote: >> I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is >> that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more* >> sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”. > > One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. There's > no "comments" feature There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ for instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a pretty interesting example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in fact). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
R. David Murray schrieb: > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 at 15:42, Terry Reedy wrote: >> Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. If >> the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, then the >> ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people promoting >> the >> new feature have themselves logged in to systematically rate and possibly >> comment on every package they have looked at, and thereby kickstart the >> system with fair responses. > > For what it's worth, I never look at PyPI. I get my packages either > through Gentoo's portage or, if it isn't there (yet), by finding the > package's home site through Google. So I'm a happy user of a number of > packages, whose comments will never show up on PyPI. The other large group of easy_install users will also never get to the individual package pages on PyPI. Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain through the comments. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> At least it can be expected that in many cases project maintainers will > *want* to use a conventional BTS, VCS, discussion forum, etc. So that > route makes more sense than a mandatory comment system outside the > project maintainer's control, while providing the user-participation > that is the purported motivation. I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list, or any other kind of support forum. I agree that users asking for support should not use the PyPI commenting system. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. > If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, > then the ratings/reviews will be biased. Fortunately, that isn't actually the case. The majority of comments is positive (from scanning the full list of comments, without actually counting). > Even on Amazon, an author could, I presume, add a response to a > factually incorrect review. And so they can on PyPI. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Nick Coghlan wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: >> I'm quite okay with having a banner >> saying "This package has opted not to receive comments". > > Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the > project's own support site or mailing list. It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote: I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more* sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”. One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. There's no "comments" feature, but there is a "CPAN RT" bug-tracker which appears to be a way for users to submit comments/problems about packages in a way common to all packages in CPAN, but distinct from upstream's bug trackers/lists/etc. I'd assume that gets emailed to the listed maintainer of the package as well as being accessible to other users, although I don't really have any idea. e.g. http://search.cpan.org/~capttofu/DBD-mysql/lib/DBD/mysql.pm There might be something to be said for providing users a way to provide feedback that doesn't require making a accounts in a bazillion separate bugtrackers. *shrug* James ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 at 15:42, Terry Reedy wrote: Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, then the ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people promoting the new feature have themselves logged in to systematically rate and possibly comment on every package they have looked at, and thereby kickstart the system with fair responses. For what it's worth, I never look at PyPI. I get my packages either through Gentoo's portage or, if it isn't there (yet), by finding the package's home site through Google. So I'm a happy user of a number of packages, whose comments will never show up on PyPI. --David (RDM) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Chris Withers wrote: > I'm quite okay with having a banner > saying "This package has opted not to receive comments". Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the project's own support site or mailing list. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
A.M. Kuchling amk.ca> writes: > > For comments, haloscan and disqus are third-party comment-hosting > services; http://redalt.com/blog/comment-services has a longer list. They are horrible for page loading times; and besides, I don't know how you can trust such third-party to provide an important function of your Web site, /and/ manage its data. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Masklinn writes: > On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote: > > But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for > > entries to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc? > > I'm saying saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the > > current implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said > > earlier; since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not > > participate. > I think having links to those is a very good idea and more important > than a comment/notation system. They shouldn't be mandatory though, > not every library has a mailing list, or even a (public anyway) bug > tracker. I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more* sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”. At least it can be expected that in many cases project maintainers will *want* to use a conventional BTS, VCS, discussion forum, etc. So that route makes more sense than a mandatory comment system outside the project maintainer's control, while providing the user-participation that is the purported motivation. -- \“Spam will be a thing of the past in two years' time.” —Bill | `\ Gates, 2004-01-24 | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Arc Riley wrote: It would be more useful to provide a PyPI mechanism to publish a link to file bugs on the project's own website and leave project ratings the work of other sites such as Ohloh. Yes, I really wish I could include all the links in the sections on, say, http://www.simplistix.co.uk/software/python/errorhandler in my package metadata, and have that show on PyPI. Sadly, there are many PEP battles and much gnashing of teeth before that will ever happen :-( Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Martin v. Löwis wrote: I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do about it. Yes please! I've been silently waiting for this and have (surprisingly for me!) managed to resist joining in the rant. I'm of the crowd who just wants to make comments (I don't care about ratings one way or another, and I can't, sadly, see anyone giving me access as to who-voted-less-than-5 so I can follow up with them and see what needs to be improved) optional. I'm quite okay with having a banner saying "This package has opted not to receive comments". I believe the software I release on PyPI is strong enough on its own merits that people will use it ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Barry Warsaw wrote: > I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be > able to opt-out of it if you want. Or just write such awesome software > that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos. One of the problems I have with online rating/comment systems for software are I see them as inherently biased. Happy users are more likely to be busy coding, unhappy users are more likely to be frustrated and looking for somewhere to vent. If the package author can't even *respond* to mistaken or misguided comments then the review system is fundamentally broken. Better not to have one at all - let people vent on their own blogs and other sites, and let potential users let Google do its thing (and if Google turns up nothing, then that in itself is a data point). Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Barry Warsaw writes: > On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: > > > Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this > > is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi > > until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It > > changes. I'm updating my existing packages, but I have zero interest in publishing new packages to PyPI while it's trying to be a popularity rating and comment system. > That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository > of 3rd party packages. That's exactly what we want it to be. The problem is the current implementation is diluting that focus and making it much less attractive to have one's packages there. -- \ “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our | `\will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of | _o__) others.” —Thomas Jefferson | Ben Finney pgpcfuSs1Ptjq.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Guido van Rossum wrote: On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: Barry Warsaw wrote: On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It changes. That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially encouraged to get your packages there. I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from a book review and rating service. And that mixing the two is 'socially discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g. Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion, ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity). I use user reviews on both Amazon and Netflix. I notice that both let people rate the reviews (helpful or not), and I sometimes look at those also. Both list items without the say-so of creators, though most will tolerate possible bad reviews in exchange for sales. I very seldom see an item with only one review, so there is usually a mix. There are also ratings averaged across a lot more people. Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, then the ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people promoting the new feature have themselves logged in to systematically rate and possibly comment on every package they have looked at, and thereby kickstart the system with fair responses. Authors can often respond to magazine/journal reviews in Letters to the Editor. Publishers tend to exercise some editorial control over reviews so as to not make the publication look bad with grossly bad reviews. Even on Amazon, an author could, I presume, add a response to a factually incorrect review. Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 08:25 -0600, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central > repository of 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun > and socially encouraged to get your packages there. Its already socially encouraged: heck, if package foo is not on PyPI, it doesn't exist. As an author who hosts code elsewhere, I really want to get feedback on my packages. I don't really see the point of having a comment system in PyPI ((*for me*), but I would really like to be able to have a link to the appropriate web page for folk that want to ask questions. To be clear, I mean a specific link, not just the 'link to a website'. -Rob signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:30:27AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote: > etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just > customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project, > actually. For comments, haloscan and disqus are third-party comment-hosting services; http://redalt.com/blog/comment-services has a longer list. I don't know if any of them support rating of the posts or objects being commented on (as opposed to rating other comments, which is supported by some of them). Or if any of them can delegate moderation to the module authors, as opposed to the PyPI admins. PyPI's REST-style URLs also work nicely as keys or RDF identifiers, so it would be straightforward to use them for identifying ratings or comment threads. --amk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Intention = personal opinion => for a better PyPI On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Jesse Noller wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: >>> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to >>> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings. >> >> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know >> how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on >> PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live >> happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate >> CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-) > > True, but if you make entries for them mandatory (bug trackers, > source, etc), and you encourage users to use them, you begin being to > be the change you want to be, which is making PyPi *less* of an "app > store" where the consumer doesn't collaborate with the authors. > > Or maybe rather than *putting* this stuff into Pypi; pypi allows > plugins to allow authors to link in RSS feeds to their bug trackers, > wiki streams, what have you. > IMO plugins could be a little bit complicated because PyPI would need to be extended, and there's also the problem of installing, upgrading and maintaining each plugin . OTOH if PyPI relies on a single API based on open standards (e.g. RPC or something RESTful ;o) then that would represent less overhead for PyPI maintainers . Instead of votes + comments I'd prefer a similar user interface but doing things as follows (feel free to filter things; besides I'll mention how it should work using Trac XmlRpcPlugin , but should be similar for other PMS ;o) : - Previous comments retrieved from third party site and shown (e.g. no more than 5 and only most recent shown like TH.org) as well as a link to navigate to third party site in order to look for further issues . (ticket.getAll + ticket.get) - Text input would be the description of a ticket (ticket.create) - A combobox to select either comment | defect | support (ticket.create) - Ratings could be interpreted as a priority or severity ... (labels = ticket.priority.getAll + ticket.priority.getAll , values for single item = ticket.get ) Implementing all this might require to add more information to the index (I am not sure) and also config options in the site for package maintainers, but since it'd be more useful (for me) probable (me and others) will prefer something like that : *and users won't even notice the changes* ;o) Nonetheless plugins approach is more general and flexible, and it is also possible to develop a plugin to support the RPC-based integration with external issue trackers . The main difference is maintenance effort once it's up and running . ;o) > I think everyone can co exist, just not one at the cost of another ;) > +1 ... keeping relevant data in single place -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article: ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
>> The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5 >> comments), so it takes of rather slowly. >> > > Until spammers decide to attack... Sure. However, spambots have avoided PyPI so far, and manual spamming only had one incident (of somebody creating dozens of packages on a single day). My understanding is that spambots target systems where a comment form is present even in the unloggedin state. In PyPI, you need to create the account before you can comment. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:46 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off, >> you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just >> allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or >> community building doesn't work) > > The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5 > comments), so it takes of rather slowly. > Until spammers decide to attack... -- Lisandro Dalcín --- Centro Internacional de Métodos Computacionales en Ingeniería (CIMEC) Instituto de Desarrollo Tecnológico para la Industria Química (INTEC) Consejo Nacional de Investigaciones Científicas y Técnicas (CONICET) PTLC - Güemes 3450, (3000) Santa Fe, Argentina Tel/Fax: +54-(0)342-451.1594 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know >> how to use a bug tracker. > > But they do know how to use mailing lists. Or IRC chats. Or support forums. > > Those places have (for many projects) tens, hundreds, or even > thousands of peers who are able and willing to help new users get > started. Only the package maintainers see comments on PyPI, meaning > we've got to deal with requests for support there manually. > > This isn't academic; just this morning a user asked a question on > Django's PyPI listing that would have been better asked on any of the > support channels we provide. I have no way of directing him there > besides lamely commenting after the fact, and then it just seems like > I'm giving him the runaround. Maybe that's an example of a user who doesn't know how to use those support channels? I know I wouldn't bother with IRC even if it was the only way to get in touch with users, I hate it with a vengeance. (Though arguably I'm a special case -- whenever I show up everyone goes "h, Guido is here." :-) And I might not want to sign up for a mailing list for a casual question. And what exactly is a "forum"? > Look, nobody's asking to kill the feature. We're asking to *make it > optional*, and to allow us to link to a more appropriate support forum > instead. Can you please explain to me what's wrong with that? I already said it was fine to make it opt-out. What more do you want? -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:44 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users > think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do > about it. Or (ironically) the vocal fraction can write scripts to stuff the ballot. :-) -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my >> views on the state of the standard libraries and to >> make them state-of-the-art..! ;) > > If I understand correctly, you want the (current) standard library to be > separated from the Python implementation, and available separately. > > Interestingly enough, people are very much split over whether that would > be a good thing or not. Some like it the way Python does, some dislike > it (and some quite strongly so). > > In any case, many Python users consider it a good thing that it comes > "with batteries included", ie. with no need to add extra stuff for many > tasks. > > Some of the Python maintainers have recently started objecting to this > setup, asking that the standard library should be split into separate > packages that are released and distributed independent of Python. Others > of us feel strongly that such a change should not be made. > > So don't expect any immediate change to happen. > > Regards, > Martin Martin is correct; this came up on distutils-sig a month or so ago; I proposed offering multiple downloads "with batteries" and "without batteries (with the batteries on the side)". We decided as a group to hold off on that until further in the future. jesse ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'
Sriram Srinivasan schrieb: > I guess why every programming language has some kind of a 'standard > library' built in within it. In my view it must not be called as a > 'library' at all. what it does > is like a 'bunch of built-in programs ready-made to do stuff'. > > Lets see what a 'library' does: > > 1. offers books for customers > 1.1 lets user select a book by genre, etc > 1.2 lets user to use different books of same genre, etc > 1.3 lets user to use books by same author, etc for different genre > > 2. keeps track of all the books + their genre > 2.1 first knows what all books it has at present > 2.2 when new book comes it is added to the particular shelf sorted by > genre,author,edition, etc.. > 2.3 when books become old they are kept separately for future reference > 2.4 very old books can be sent to a museum/discarded > > I guess no standard library does the minimum of this but wants to be > called a library. I guess you're simply stretching the "library" metaphor far beyond its usefulness :) Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off, > you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just > allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or > community building doesn't work) The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5 comments), so it takes of rather slowly. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know > how to use a bug tracker. But they do know how to use mailing lists. Or IRC chats. Or support forums. Those places have (for many projects) tens, hundreds, or even thousands of peers who are able and willing to help new users get started. Only the package maintainers see comments on PyPI, meaning we've got to deal with requests for support there manually. This isn't academic; just this morning a user asked a question on Django's PyPI listing that would have been better asked on any of the support channels we provide. I have no way of directing him there besides lamely commenting after the fact, and then it just seems like I'm giving him the runaround. Look, nobody's asking to kill the feature. We're asking to *make it optional*, and to allow us to link to a more appropriate support forum instead. Can you please explain to me what's wrong with that? Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user > comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or > Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place > to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders) > of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot > of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a > way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many > inappropriate messages) There is, although it's admittedly tedious: users can file a support request (follow the link "Get Help"). > and the software author should be able to talk > back That is actually the case: the author *can* talk back. > but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it > away. I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do about it. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'
> I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my > views on the state of the standard libraries and to > make them state-of-the-art..! ;) If I understand correctly, you want the (current) standard library to be separated from the Python implementation, and available separately. Interestingly enough, people are very much split over whether that would be a good thing or not. Some like it the way Python does, some dislike it (and some quite strongly so). In any case, many Python users consider it a good thing that it comes "with batteries included", ie. with no need to add extra stuff for many tasks. Some of the Python maintainers have recently started objecting to this setup, asking that the standard library should be split into separate packages that are released and distributed independent of Python. Others of us feel strongly that such a change should not be made. So don't expect any immediate change to happen. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: >> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to >> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings. > > Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know > how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on > PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live > happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate > CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-) True, but if you make entries for them mandatory (bug trackers, source, etc), and you encourage users to use them, you begin being to be the change you want to be, which is making PyPi *less* of an "app store" where the consumer doesn't collaborate with the authors. Or maybe rather than *putting* this stuff into Pypi; pypi allows plugins to allow authors to link in RSS feeds to their bug trackers, wiki streams, what have you. I think everyone can co exist, just not one at the cost of another ;) > [...] >> What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to >> create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with >> glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how >> to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc? > > Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial > solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store, > etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just > customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project, > actually. Yup, reddit's source is out there, and I think there's lots of possibilities, I guess for me I'd rather have nothing than 50% of something that doesn't account for the various problems and the pretty valid opinions of authors and maintainers. jesse ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: > I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to > the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings. Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-) [...] > What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to > create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with > glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how > to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc? Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store, etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project, actually. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like > adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g. > Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion, > ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity). > > I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't > improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at > least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a > user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings. > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings. Especially with ratings like milk and wolf shirts get: http://www.amazon.com/Tuscan-Whole-Milk-Gallon-128/dp/B00032G1S0/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1258053581&sr=1-13 http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Mens-Short-Sleeve-Large/dp/B001VMZFPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1258053663&sr=8-1 What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Intention = precision => for a better PyPI On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: >> Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> >>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: >>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It changes. >>> >>> That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of >>> 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially >>> encouraged to get your packages there. >> >> I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from >> a book review and rating service. And that mixing the two is 'socially >> discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is > > I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like > adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g. > Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion, > ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity). > ... but (most) book writers don't use an issue tracker to manage and get *useful* feedback from their readers (I know there are exceptions to the rule ;o) and fix the book chapters or anything else . Besides there are some differences between software and books and the way both of them are created, used and enhanced . What I don't like (today) about comments + votes is that I have to do the same thing in two different places (especially because one of the sources is *very* noisy). If there's a way to integrate both and «reduce» the noise , that would be nice . ;o) > I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't > improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at > least give authors the option to disable comments. +1 > Of course, as a > user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings. > Not really sure. For example, if a user access the page for setuptools (just an example ;o) soon she/he will realize that other people use it very often and also has a high kwalitee score, therefore it is quite unlikely that such package be «irrelevant» or «untrusted» (this is IMHO) . -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article: ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > Barry Warsaw wrote: >> >> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: >> >>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this >>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi >>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It >>> changes. >> >> That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of >> 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially >> encouraged to get your packages there. > > I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from > a book review and rating service. And that mixing the two is 'socially > discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g. Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion, ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity). I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Barry Warsaw wrote: On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It changes. That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially encouraged to get your packages there. I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from a book review and rating service. And that mixing the two is 'socially discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be able to opt-out of it if you want. Or just write such awesome software that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] FYI: LWN article on 2.x, 3.x, and the moratorium
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:40:10PM -0500, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> FYI: I've written an article for Linux Weekly News on the moratorium &
> related issues.
>
> The article is subscribers-only for a week, but here's a free link:
>
> http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/361266/ef88bdbed5369800/
>
> If you find this sort of thing useful/interesting, please consider
> subscribing to LWN.
+1. I've found LWN the best magazine (among both printed and electronic
magazines) in its area, and despite the fact its articles are freed after a
week (and many articles are published free from the very beginning) I
subscribed to it to support the magazine ("Patronize" business model).
They say their site is written in Python using Quixote as the web
framework; they promised to publish the code but didn't publish it yet -
the fact I consider the biggest drawback of the site.
Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytmanhttp://phd.pp.ru/p...@phd.pp.ru
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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[Python-Dev] FYI: LWN article on 2.x, 3.x, and the moratorium
FYI: I've written an article for Linux Weekly News on the moratorium & related issues. The article is subscribers-only for a week, but here's a free link: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/361266/ef88bdbed5369800/ If you find this sort of thing useful/interesting, please consider subscribing to LWN. --amk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
[Jacob Kaplan-Moss] I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be checked in. I support your efforts. Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
Nobody is claiming right to censor what people say about their software. This is the Internet. There are blogs. Google and other search engines find blogs quickly, and people who agree with the viewpoints expressed link to them thus making the blog postings more visible. There are countless other social networks and outlets for people to flame and slander (or praise and promote, in a much less common case) software. It would be more useful to provide a PyPI mechanism to publish a link to file bugs on the project's own website and leave project ratings the work of other sites such as Ohloh. On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software > somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say > about your software. > > ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek > wrote: > > Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up > anything. > > https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/ > > I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that > package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste > any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be > checked in. > Thanks. If I have some spare time I'm going take a look. Should I post patches to the regular Python bug tracker? -- David blog: http://www.traceback.org twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
