Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:32 AM, s...@pobox.com wrote: The odds that someone will remember the syntax for the diff command for the VCS are much higher than the revert command. My guess is diff is executed more often than any other version control commands except update and commit, and far more often than revert. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever used revert more than a handful of times in my entire professional lifetime. I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. Interesting. I almost *never* reverse patches - I always use the SVN revert command. Usually, this is because I will have edited the source tree since applying the patch. Reversion has the advantage of not getting confused by any additional changes. I also usually use svn diff to save a copy before I revert in case I change my mind. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Nick Usually, this is because I will have edited the source tree since Nick applying the patch. Reversion has the advantage of not getting Nick confused by any additional changes. I also usually use svn diff Nick to save a copy before I revert in case I change my mind. I routinely use CVS and Subversion at work, occasionally SCCS (yes, we still have a little of that other dinosaur laying about - our sysadmins, what can I say? they are luddites). Most of my interaction with these tools is mediated through the Emacs vc package, so my direct use of the command line is reduced even from what you might think normal. It's generally only when I need to operate on a group of files that I revert to using the command line. That tends to be to check in a group of files or discard one or changes before checking in, generally by taking a diff and unapplying it with with patch, perhaps first saving it to a file. If I want to revert a change after checking it in, I can just pipe the confirmation email through patch. S ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
s...@pobox.com wrote: I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. What he said, only bolded and underlined. -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:23:26 +1100 Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: s...@pobox.com wrote: I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. What he said, only bolded and underlined. I'm not sure what the issue is. Is there something, concretely, that needs to be fixed? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:23:26 +1100 Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: s...@pobox.com wrote: I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. What he said, only bolded and underlined. I'm not sure what the issue is. Is there something, concretely, that needs to be fixed? You'll have to ask Skip if he thinks there's a concrete problem. I haven't seen one, but I've only been reading this thread with one eye and it may be I've missed the mother of all problems. The (non-concrete) issue, as I understand it, is simple: be aware that not all Python developers are necessarily expert in DVCSes, and please keep it simple. -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:54:37 +1100 Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: You'll have to ask Skip if he thinks there's a concrete problem. I haven't seen one, but I've only been reading this thread with one eye and it may be I've missed the mother of all problems. The (non-concrete) issue, as I understand it, is simple: be aware that not all Python developers are necessarily expert in DVCSes, and please keep it simple. Well svn revert is one of the basic SVN commands (that I personally use far more often than patch -R, but YMMV). We're not talking about some advanced use of Mercurial queues. The point is a bit subtler here though: if you use patch -R after you have done some changes of your own, the checkout will not be restored to its pristine state, which may bite you later. svn revert -R . ensures everything is clean. Arguably, even patch isn't familiar to Windows developers. It doesn't come bundled and has to be installed separately, and I've seen some people use the TortoiseSVN GUI for applying patches. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
What he said, only bolded and underlined. Antoine I'm not sure what the issue is. Is there something, concretely, Antoine that needs to be fixed? Strictly speaking, nothing needs to be fixed because nothing is broken. Rephrasing my earlier messages: 1. Being a sophisticated Python programmer (and thus being a potential core developer) does not necessarily equate to being a sophisticated user of (especially distributed) version control systems. I have been programming in Python for about 15 years and have made contributions to the core off-and-on for about 10 years. I have never, not even once, been tempted to learn about or use svnmerge. Even considering the more mundane subcommands of the normal svn and hg commands (not to mention cvs, bzr, git, darcs, etc) there are plenty of different ways to structure the workflow, not all of which will make sense for each of those vcs's, nor will they all make sense to all potential users. 2. There is more than one way to skin many of the cats involved in version control. My preference to use vcs diff | patch -p0 -R or patch -p0 -R some-email in preference to vcs revert some flags is just one example. I'm sure I will be able to master svn revert and hg revert if necessary, but that knowledge won't transfer at all to CVS (no revert command) and won't transfer 100% to other vcs's because their revert commands will have semantic differences or use different command line flags to dictate the specifics of the action to perform. 3. Not everyone will use the command line (strange as that may seem coming from a decades-long Unix user). Many Windows users (and probably some Mac users) will have GUIs like TortoiseHg. Smart/lazy/ memory-challenged Emacs and vim users will have version control commands built into their editors precisely to paper over the arcane differences which exist between vcs's even for common operations. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: s...@pobox.com wrote: I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. What he said, only bolded and underlined. Indeed. I now have to deal with an unholy mix of CVS, Subversion, git, and Mercurial -- a twisty maze of little one-letter options, all so similar, all too powerful. At least with CVS and Subversion you could concentrate your mistakes on a single file :-). Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:36:04 -0600 s...@pobox.com wrote: What he said, only bolded and underlined. Antoine I'm not sure what the issue is. Is there something, concretely, Antoine that needs to be fixed? Strictly speaking, nothing needs to be fixed because nothing is broken. Rephrasing my earlier messages: [...] Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. S ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On 19/01/2011 11:35, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:32 AM,s...@pobox.com wrote: The odds that someone will remember the syntax for the diff command for the VCS are much higher than the revert command. My guess is diff is executed more often than any other version control commands except update and commit, and far more often than revert. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever used revert more than a handful of times in my entire professional lifetime. I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. Interesting. I almost *never* reverse patches - I always use the SVN revert command. Usually, this is because I will have edited the source tree since applying the patch. Reversion has the advantage of not getting confused by any additional changes. I also usually use svn diff to save a copy before I revert in case I change my mind. Ditto, same here. For me (by no stretch of the imagination an expert VCS user) the revert commands (of svn, Hg and bzr) are basically straightforward (and cross-platform). To me it is tinkering with the patch command that is arcane... All the best, Michael Cheers, Nick. -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On 19/01/2011 19:10, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. The revert works with svn, hg and bzr. Using patch is not going to work on Windoze unless cygwin has been installed. Michael S ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:10, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. I was hoping this would flame out, but two days of discussion suggests otherwise. I am of the opinion of always listing how to use the CVS to its fullest. It is the thing you will have to interact with the most when doing work on Python, so trying to avoid it is not doing anyone any favours. That being said, I am not opposed to someone (other than me as I am not going to bother) **adding** a not about `patch -R`, but it should not replace the `svn revert` explanation. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
2011/1/19 Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk: On 19/01/2011 19:10, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. The revert works with svn, hg and bzr. Using patch is not going to work on Windoze unless cygwin has been installed. I thought you were supposed to use some variant of update on hg instead revert, though. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
The revert works with svn, hg and bzr. Using patch is not going to work on Windoze unless cygwin has been installed. I thought you were supposed to use some variant of update on hg instead revert, though. I think what is discouraged is to hg revert to a different revision. We are talking about reverting your working copy to its pristine state. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On 1/19/2011 1:25 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:10,s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. I was hoping this would flame out, but two days of discussion suggests otherwise. I am of the opinion of always listing how to use the CVS to its fullest. It is the thing you will have to interact with the most when doing work on Python, so trying to avoid it is not doing anyone any favours. That being said, I am not opposed to someone (other than me as I am not going to bother) **adding** a not about `patch -R`, but it should not replace the `svn revert` explanation. As a neophyte vcs user, I like specific commands that can only do what I want, and not screw up with a wrong flag, so I agree with this. The most important thing is being clear about which data will have which effect on which other data. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On 19/01/2011 19:47, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:20:01 +0100 Michael Foordfuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote: On 19/01/2011 19:10, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Ok, thank you but... are you suggesting something or not? Yes. Keep the vcs command recommendations simple. At least mention idioms which likely to apply across a wider range of version control systems. The revert works with svn, hg and bzr. Using patch is not going to work on Windoze unless cygwin has been installed. You don't need cygwin, just something much smaller with GNU in its name: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/patch.htm (yes, the suggestion is already in the dev guide) Unfortunately gnuwin32 patch doesn't play well with Windows 7. I remember giving up on it completely and installing cygwin. This page seems to explain the details: http://math.nist.gov/oommf/software-patchsets/patch_on_Windows7.html Michael ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 06:19:50PM -0600, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:37:07 +0100 Antoine brett.cannon python-check...@python.org wrote: + +To undo a patch, do:: + +patch -R -p0 patch.diff + Antoine Or, simply and more reliably, use the corresponding VCS Antoine incantation (svn revert -R . or hg revert -a). I prefer Brett's solution. It's one command instead of one command per VCS. It works with other version control systems and provides me the opportunity to save a copy I can restore later. hg revert saves files before reverting as *.orig. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttp://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
I prefer Brett's solution. It's one command instead of one command per VCS. It works with other version control systems and provides me the opportunity to save a copy I can restore later. Georg It assumes you already have the copy. Sure, but the way to get the input to the patch command is easy, and is probably almost the same for any version control system: whatever-vcs diff patch.diff The odds that someone will remember the syntax for the diff command for the VCS are much higher than the revert command. My guess is diff is executed more often than any other version control commands except update and commit, and far more often than revert. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever used revert more than a handful of times in my entire professional lifetime. I realize the world is passing me by and that I'm rapidly turning into a dinosaur w.r.t. distributed version control, but as you write/update the developer's guide remember that proficiency in Python does not necessarily equate to proficiency in version control systems, especially with the less frequently used commands. I personally would prefer that more general commands and concepts be used where possible so that newcomers not be put off unnecessarily by the complexity of version control. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:37:07 +0100 brett.cannon python-check...@python.org wrote: + +To undo a patch, do:: + +patch -R -p0 patch.diff + Or, simply and more reliably, use the corresponding VCS incantation (svn revert -R . or hg revert -a). Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Done On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 15:14, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:37:07 +0100 brett.cannon python-check...@python.org wrote: + +To undo a patch, do:: + + patch -R -p0 patch.diff + Or, simply and more reliably, use the corresponding VCS incantation (svn revert -R . or hg revert -a). Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Antoine On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:37:07 +0100 Antoine brett.cannon python-check...@python.org wrote: + +To undo a patch, do:: + +patch -R -p0 patch.diff + Antoine Or, simply and more reliably, use the corresponding VCS Antoine incantation (svn revert -R . or hg revert -a). I prefer Brett's solution. It's one command instead of one command per VCS. It works with other version control systems and provides me the opportunity to save a copy I can restore later. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] devguide: Cover how to (un-)apply a patch.
Am 18.01.2011 01:19, schrieb s...@pobox.com: Antoine On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:37:07 +0100 Antoine brett.cannon python-check...@python.org wrote: + +To undo a patch, do:: + +patch -R -p0 patch.diff + Antoine Or, simply and more reliably, use the corresponding VCS Antoine incantation (svn revert -R . or hg revert -a). I prefer Brett's solution. It's one command instead of one command per VCS. It works with other version control systems and provides me the opportunity to save a copy I can restore later. It assumes you already have the copy. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
