Zope 3.1.0c1 released!
The Zope 3 development team is proud to announce Zope 3.1.0 candidate 1. Zope 3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. It is in our opinion that Zope 3.1 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the 'X' for experimental from the name. We will also continue to work on making the transition between Zope 2 and Zope 3 as smooth as possible. As a first step, Zope 2.8 includes Zope 3 features in the form of Five. Please test this release carefully and send us any feedback! In particular, we have tried very hard to keep backward-compatibility with the previous X3 3.0 release, so please let us know if the new release breaks your code. Downloads http://zope.org/Products/Zope3/ Installation instructions for both Windows and Un*x/Linux are now available in the top level 'README.txt' file of the distribution. The binary installer is recommended for Windows. Zope 3.1 requires Python 2.3.5 or 2.4.1 to run. You must also have zlib installed on your system. Important Changes Since 3.1.0b1 All of the outstanding issues in the to-do list were completed, which included many bugfixes and the removal of all outstanding XXX comments. There was also a lot of work done in fixing many places that were not translatable. Most Important Changes Since 3.0 - New Pluggable Authentication Utility (PAU), which is similar in philosophy to the Zope 2 PAS. The following features are available in the in the basic PAU facility: + Credentials Plugins: Basic HTTP Auth, Session + Authenticator Plugins: Principal Folder, Group Folder For a detailed description of the pluggable authentication utility, see 'zope/app/authentication/README.txt'. - Major simplifications to the component architecture: + Removal of the concept of a service. All outstanding services were converted to utilities: Error Reporting, FSSync, Authentication. + Site Managers are global and local now; adapters and utilties are directly registered with the site manager. Now global and local component registration and lookup behaves very similar. + Local registrations can now only have two states: active and inactive. This simplified the code so much, that 'zope.app.utility', 'zope.app.registration' and 'zope.app.site' were all merged into 'zope.app.component'. + Implemented menus as utilities. The API also supports sub-menus now. + Implemented views as adapters. Skins and layers are now simply interfaces that the request provides. - Added an integer-id facility for assigning integer identifiers to objects. - Added basic catalog and index frameworks. - Added sources, which are like vocabularies except that they support very large collections of values that must be searched, rather than browsed. - Created a new granting UI that allows advanced searching of principal sources. - Implemented a generic user preferences systsem that was designed to be easily used in TALES expressions and via Python code. Preferences can be edited via 'http://localhost:8080/++preferences++/'. A demo of the preferences can be found at:: http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/src/zope/app/demo/skinpref/ - ZCML now supports conditional directives using the 'zcml:condition' attribute. The condition is of the form verb argument. Two verbs, 'have feature' and 'installed module' are currently implemented. Features can be declared via the 'meta:provides' directive. - Improved API doctool: Code Browser now shows interfaces, text files and ZCML files; the new Book Module compiles all available doctext files into an organized book; the new Type Module lets you browser all interface types and discover interfaces that provide types; views are shown in the interface details screen; views and adapters are categorized into specific, extended and generic; user preferences allow you to customize certain views; 3rd party modules can now be added to the Code Browser. - Improved I18n-based number and datetime formatting by integrating 'pytz' for timezone support, implementing all missing format characters, and reinterpreting the ICU documentation to correctly parse patterns. - Added '++debug++' traversal adapter that allows you to turn on debugging flags in 'request.debug'. Currently the following flags are defined: source, tal, errors. - Improved logout support. - Added the HTTP request recorder, which lets you inspect raw HTTP requests and responses. It can be used to create functional doctests without requiring third-party tools such as TCPWatch. - Developed a generic 'browser:form' directive. It is pretty much the same as the 'browser:editform' directive, except that the data is not stored on some context or adapted context but sent
dnspython 1.3.4
dnspython 1.3.4 has been released.
New since 1.3.3:
The source address and port may now be specified when calling
dns.query.{udp,tcp,xfr}.
The resolver now does exponential backoff each time it runs
through all of the nameservers.
Rcodes which indicate a nameserver is likely to be a
permanent failure for a query cause the nameserver to be removed
from the mix for that query.
This release fixes all known bugs.
See the ChangeLog file for more detailed information on changes since
the prior release.
For the latest in releases, documentation, and information, visit the
dnspython home page at
http://www.dnspython.org/
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Fredericksburg, VA ZPUG August 10: .Net, functional testing
Please join us August 10, 7:30-9:00 PM, for the third meeting of the Fredericksburg, VA Zope and Python User Group (ZPUG). This meeting has four features of note. - Brian Lloyd, the author of Python for .Net (http://www.zope.org/ Members/Brian/PythonNet/) and the Zope Corporation VP of Engineering, will discuss his .Net platform and give a brief .Net overview. - Benji York, Zope Corp Senior Software Engineer, will discuss current functional testing practices on Zope 3, including using Selenium on Zope 3, using demo storage for functional testing, and using his own compelling new functional test package. Note that the majority of this discussion has strong applicability to automated testing of all web frameworks and applications. - We will serve the now-usual geek-chic fruit, cheese, and soft drinks. - Fred Drake, Zope Corp Senior Software Engineer, Python core developer, Python documentation maintainer and editor, and co-author of the O'Reilly book Python XML will give two of his books (http:// www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596001282/) to new attendees. Upon pressure, he admitted that he would be willing to autograph them if bribed with fruit, cheese, and soft drinks. Note that we are eager to have non-Zope-Corporation employees give presentations. :-) We had three new attendees last meeting, for a total of ten. Please come and bring friends! More information http://www.zope.org/Members/poster/ fxbgzpug_announce_3 and below. Hope to see you there! Gary General ZPUG information When: second Wednesday of every month, 7:30-9:00. Where: Zope Corporation offices. 513 Prince Edward Street; Fredericksburg, VA 22408 (tinyurl for map is http://tinyurl.com/duoab). Parking: Zope Corporation parking lot; entrance on Prince Edward Street. Topics: As desired (and offered) by participants, within the constraints of having to do with Python. Contact: Gary Poster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html
Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port, and changes the data on it according to keyboard input. I hope I can get it to run under windows xp and / or windows 2000. How can I do this? What do I need to know? It doesn't look like the standard library (the one under my pillow) has that feature. In addition, I've heard that with newer versions of windows don't let you communicate with the port directly, instead requiring interfacing with some driver? I came across this: http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyparallel.html but it seems to only be used for direct access (would it work with XP?), and hasn't been updated for a couple of years. In addition, it requires something called Java Communications (JavaComm) extension for Java/Jython, doesn't provide a link to it, and when I google it - google returns the page I came from! To add to the confusion, I hope I can provide a py2exe executable of my script instead of forcing a complete installation. --= Posted using GrabIt = --= Binary Usenet downloading made easy =- -= Get GrabIt for free from http://www.shemes.com/ =- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python 2.3.3 Exceptions
Hello, Im using Python 2.3.3 along with Win32all (163). Currently my python application runs as Windows Service. Im using Win32all Service Framework to run the Python Code as a Windows Service. The following error has been reported to event viewer sparadically. Reporting queued error: faulting application PythonService.exe, version 2.3.0.163, faulting module python23.dll, version 2.3.3150.1012, fault address 0x0005c202. Due to that, my service does not stops or crashes. Can anybody guess what is the problem? I have checked the Python Code, the crash always points to static int default_3way_compare(PyObject *v, PyObject *w) function in object.c As of now my project does not allow me to upgrade to higher version of Python. Thanks in Advance Saravanan D -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Printing Docstrings Without Importing
Bengt Richter wrote: On 1 Aug 2005 06:50:23 -0700, Fuzzyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to scratch several people's itches. Care to develop/maintain it ? Are you talking to me? ;-) (My news server is having some problem. I saw my post on google groups but my normal news client isn't seeing it.) Assuming you are talking to me, there's a bug, naturally, in trying to escape None as a doc string. It was twenty minutes of hacking and a half hour of trying to choose html colors, so there's not that much there ;-) But what did you have in mind? Javascript menu rollovers for popup docs of functions and classes and methods etc? Full help info access? Optional pdf output? That would take more than another hour, but I did fix the mentioned bug and put a table of clickable module names at the top with the file date stamps and paths so you can navigate down to the spcific module docstring output quickly if you have a lot of them. Of course, I think I'd put styling in the header rather than hack more raw html if I were to go another round. I'll post the latest once I can see my postings in context with my own newsreader again. Hello Brengt, Sorry - I know it was a very terse reply. The state of automatic API documentation generating tools is not very good in Python. Epydoc is the best - but *seems* to be unmaintained. Many people find they can't use it, because it imports code. Your approach of compiling the code and introspecting the objects seems like the best alternative. Some people argue against automatic API documentation *anyway* - but if you write your docstrings intending them to be useful then it can save a lot of work. However for a medium sized project, something like Epydoc that shows the relationship between objects and links the doc pages appropriately, can be very useful. This is obviously a lot more work than just generating output for a single modules. Anyway - it's a subject that comes up regularly, and I haven't looked into all the issues. There was some discussion on doc-sig about it a while back. All the best, Fuzzy http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Benjamin Niemann wrote: The unittest module is a 'port' of the JUnit framework for Java which has a certain wellknown API and semantics. The same API is available for many other languages, so it is probably a good idea to stick with it in order to make people coming from other language feel more comfortable with Python. Ok, that's a good reason. I just had a look at the JUnit homepage. It seems like unittest has only implemented a part of JUnit. But you're right, even JUnit lacks setUpOnce and tearDownOnce. I found the following excuse and workaround in the JUnit FAQ: http://junit.sourceforge.net/doc/faq/faq.htm#organize_3 Some (many?) people don't like the unittest module, because it is not very pythonic - nothing to wonder as it has its root in the Java world. That's probably one of the reasons why there are other (more pythonic) unittesting frameworks for Python out there. So I think it would have been better that unittest had been named PUnit to make clear that it is a JUnit port and to allow a more pythonic testing framework to be added to the Python's standard lib. I prefer to use unittest (because this was the API the textbook was using that introduced me to this topic) and I also had the problem of heavy setup costs. I deal with it by using a script around my testsuite (instead of calling just unittest.main()) that does the setup/teardown of the environment. Yes, I think that's the simplest solution. -- Christoph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Setting a drive's volume label
Bob Greschke wrote: Looks like the label system command will do it in Windows. That's good enough for this exercise. So, in Linux...??? mlabel in the mtools package will do what you need. mkfs.vfat can also be given a volume label, but it will not allow you to set the label without creating a new filesystem :) Reinhold -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Peter Hansen wrote: What's wrong with using Python's existing global support, and just having your test case setUp() call a global setup routine which checks whether that global setup work has already been done and, if not, does it once and sets a flag to say that it has now been done? I've done this easily in the few cases where I've wanted this behaviour. It doesn't seem complex enough to warrant adding to the standard unit test support. Actually I already thought about doing it that way, but then I thought it is so ugly, there must be a simpler solution ;-) If you're going to quote XP rules of thumb, the tests should be independent and very fast, and if you have a setup code that is taking a long time, it's likely a code smell of some kind, and you should be fixing the design which prevents you writing these tests with minimal and quick setup. Are these really like acceptance tests? If they were unit tests, they should take only a few minutes to run, total, and you should be running them all *many* times a day, not twice. You're right. I think wanting to have a more global initialization indicates that you are acutally not wanting to do a unit test, but a more global test of the overall system, something like an acceptance or integration test, i.e. you are trying to abuse unittest for something it was not intended to be used for. Maybe since unittest is the only testing framework included with the standard lib, people tend to use it for all testing purposes. If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. -- Christoph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pygettext ?
Hi I'm pretty new to Python, and recently been working my way through Dive Into Python, and I'm currently writing a really simple rss reader purely to get familiarised with the language. I want to move onto something a little more challenging, but I'm stuck for ideas on what to do. I'm after a project that can start quite simple, but has lots of room for expansion when I get more confident with Python. Ideally something which would start as a command line program, and then when I feel adventurous I could build a GUI for it. I have just bought the Foundations of Python Network Programming book, so maybe something network related would be good? Cheers Jon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pygettext ?
That was sent with the wrong title, doh! On 8/3/05, Jon Hewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I'm pretty new to Python, and recently been working my way through Dive Into Python, and I'm currently writing a really simple rss reader purely to get familiarised with the language. I want to move onto something a little more challenging, but I'm stuck for ideas on what to do. I'm after a project that can start quite simple, but has lots of room for expansion when I get more confident with Python. Ideally something which would start as a command line program, and then when I feel adventurous I could build a GUI for it. I have just bought the Foundations of Python Network Programming book, so maybe something network related would be good? Cheers Jon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Ideas for Python project?
Hi I'm pretty new to Python, and recently been working my way through Dive Into Python, and I'm currently writing a really simple rss reader purely to get familiarised with the language. I want to move onto something a little more challenging, but I'm stuck for ideas on what to do. I'm after a project that can start quite simple, but has lots of room for expansion when I get more confident with Python. Ideally something which would start as a command line program, and then when I feel adventurous I could build a GUI for it. I have just bought the Foundations of Python Network Programming book, so maybe something network related would be good? Cheers Jon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Administrative prohibition error when sending email
I use a new webhosting provider and I can not send an email from my
script.
This is the script that I use to test the connection
###
import smtplib,poplib,
#I first login to my POP3 account
M=poplib.POP3('www.mywebh.com')
M.user('MYWeb)
M.pass_('12345')
print M.pass_ #check if you login successfully
#next send a message
fromaddr = [EMAIL PROTECTED]
toaddrs = [EMAIL PROTECTED]
msg=This is a test
server = smtplib.SMTP('www.ebayworldstuff.com:25')
server.set_debuglevel(1)
server.sendmail(fromaddr, toaddrs, msg)
server.quit()
#
It ends with SMTP error 550: Administrative prohibition
Where can be a problem?
Lad.
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distutils package_dir newbie
Hello all,
I've have following problem
the layout of my program is the following:
setup.py
project_dev/__init__.py
project_dev/someModule.py
now I want to make a source-installer so python setup.py install will
give the following directory stucture:
site-packages/project_user/__init__.py
site-packages/project_user/someModule.py
notice the namechange from project_dev to project_user
how do I achieve a namechange from project_dev to project_user???
I've tried several different versions of command package_dir options in
the setup function:
package_dir = {'project_user': 'project_dev'}
also package_dir = {'project_dev':'project_user'}
both without any success. (relatively unintuitive option this is)
Can anybody give the correct way to achieve a directory-renaming when
creating an installer?
kind regards
Peter
keywords: renaming, directory, sdist, distutils, package_dir
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Re: Art of Unit Testing
Christoph Zwerschke wrote: Benjamin Niemann wrote: Some (many?) people don't like the unittest module, because it is not very pythonic - nothing to wonder as it has its root in the Java world. That's probably one of the reasons why there are other (more pythonic) unittesting frameworks for Python out there. So I think it would have been better that unittest had been named PUnit to make clear that it is a JUnit port and to allow a more pythonic testing framework to be added to the Python's standard lib. It was called PyUnit before it was integrated into the stdlib. Dunno why it was renamed... -- Benjamin Niemann Email: pink at odahoda dot de WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
Novice Experl wrote: I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port, and changes the data on it according to keyboard input. I hope I can get it to run under windows xp and / or windows 2000. How can I do this? What do I need to know? It doesn't look like the standard library (the one under my pillow) has that feature. In addition, I've heard that with newer versions of windows don't let you communicate with the port directly, instead requiring interfacing with some driver? I came across this: http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyparallel.html but it seems to only be used for direct access (would it work with XP?), and hasn't been updated for a couple of years. In addition, it requires something called Java Communications (JavaComm) extension for Java/Jython, doesn't provide a link to it, and when I google it - google returns the page I came from! To add to the confusion, I hope I can provide a py2exe executable of my script instead of forcing a complete installation. --= Posted using GrabIt = --= Binary Usenet downloading made easy =- -= Get GrabIt for free from http://www.shemes.com/ =- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: distutils package_dir newbie
peter wrote:
Hello all,
I've have following problem
the layout of my program is the following:
setup.py
project_dev/__init__.py
project_dev/someModule.py
now I want to make a source-installer so python setup.py install will
give the following directory stucture:
site-packages/project_user/__init__.py
site-packages/project_user/someModule.py
notice the namechange from project_dev to project_user
how do I achieve a namechange from project_dev to project_user???
I've tried several different versions of command package_dir options in
the setup function:
package_dir = {'project_user': 'project_dev'}
also package_dir = {'project_dev':'project_user'}
both without any success. (relatively unintuitive option this is)
Can anybody give the correct way to achieve a directory-renaming when
creating an installer?
Works just fine for me.
from distutils.core import *
setup(name='somePackage',
packages = ['project_user'], # - Are you sure you have this?
package_dir = {'project_user': 'project_dev'},
)
--
Robert Kern
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die.
-- Richard Harter
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Re: Art of Unit Testing
rafi wrote: 'should' may be too strong, 'may' may be better. In the meantime I found: http://python-mock.sourceforge.net/ Thanks for the link. Björn also pointed to http://pmock.sourceforge.net Using mock objects sounds like a good idea. A problem with mock objects may be that they make writing tests for the occasional programmer yet another bit more difficult, and that you always have to ensure your mock objects really mock the real objects perfectly, so you have to write another test for that. The behavior and the API of the real objects may change every now and then. Let me summarize some good answers in this thread: - unittest is deliberately intended to be a JUnit implementation - unittest is for *unit* testing (only) ;-) - use mock objects to mimic the behaviour of external components like databases - other more pythonic testing frameworks are out there I think it would be good to have these remarks added to the unittest documentation in the Python library reference. Also, if one of the more pythonic unit testing modules will be mature enough and widely accepted, I think it would be good to make it Python's standard (lib) testing framework and rename the current unittest back to pyunit or punit. -- Christoph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: distutils package_dir newbie
thx for answering is such short notice. I recieve the following error when I use your setup: error: package directory 'project_user' does not exist (the complete error is added at the end of this document) I'm using python 2.3.5 (build by activeState) based on python 2.3.5 Do you have an idea what could have happened here? kind regards Peter ps. complete error running sdist warning: sdist: missing required meta-data: url warning: sdist: missing meta-data: either (author and author_email) or (maintain er and maintainer_email) must be supplied warning: sdist: manifest template 'MANIFEST.in' does not exist (using default fi le list) warning: sdist: standard file not found: should have one of README, README.txt error: package directory 'project_user' does not exist -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: distutils package_dir newbie
peter wrote: thx for answering is such short notice. I recieve the following error when I use your setup: error: package directory 'project_user' does not exist (the complete error is added at the end of this document) I'm using python 2.3.5 (build by activeState) based on python 2.3.5 Do you have an idea what could have happened here? No. Works just fine on Python 2.3.5 on OS X. Did you copy-and-paste the setup.py file I gave? or did you type it yourself? Could you please give the full setup.py that you used? (And please do some kind of quoting of the message you are responding to.) -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pygettext ?
cantabile napisał(a): Hi, I'm trying to write an internationalized app. I'm learning python and read that pygettext would help me, but I found elsewhere it was obsolete (??) So, what's the correct and up to date tool to i18n python ? Is there a tutorial somewhere (python docs has nothing really usable : I'd like at least an example!) Here's a page from wxPython wiki, but I think it may be usable also with other GUI toolkits, as it contains many generic introductory informations: http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/Internationalization Also, check sources of some existing application that has good i18n implementation, Gajim (http://www.gajim.org/) comes first to my mind. -- Jarek Zgoda http://jpa.berlios.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Programming Contest: First results
Brian Quinlan wrote: Tomi Kyöstilä wrote: Why don't I see my solution (__author__ = dOb) in the results? I'm sure that you got it as you replied to my mail. Your solution is now included. See: http://www.sweetapp.com/pycontest/contest1/results.html Good job! Cheers, Brian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re[4]: 2-player game, client and server at localhost
I was a bit unhappy to read this, because what you describe here is just what I've tried yesterday in my test-game with 2 balls, so if I've pointed that out, you wouldn't have to say I DLB don't understand threading either, it appears. :'( Thank you very much for putting so much effort in making things clear to me, *this* email of your made everything clear as never. Still I have problems, and hope you still don't mind me asking. Some comments: while 1: render() inp = get_player_input() thread.start_new(send_inp, (inp,)) thread.start_new(accept_opponents_inp, ()) DLB You don't understand threading either, it appears. Here you are DLB starting a new thread for each input you want... and while still_no_opponents_input_from_previous_iteration() time.sleep(0.05) DLB You're still focused on a turn based system, it looks like... Now, that's *not* how I'm tending to do it; that's what I was thinking of while trying the turn-based approach, and describing here; Christopher Subich asked how it was done initially, so I brought my hanging system out of shame again, and added something I was thinking about to improve it, while I already realize that's not the way to go - from your previous comprehensive posts. DLB There should just be AN input thread, started at the very beginning, DLB and it should just wait for input, then update the global state so DLB the update step can do whatever. As stated above, that's how I'm trying it right now. Still, if doing it turn-base, I would have to create a new thread every time. I have some other questions though - please see below. DLB Also, recommend you use threading, not thread as the module. Surely will, why? DLB SERVER DLB An input thread would look something like: DLB while True: DLB data = socket.read() #assumes both clients write to same socket DLB #otherwise use a select(client_socket_list) DLB #followed by socket.read for the flagged socket(s) DLB parse data DLB lock global DLB save in global state variables DLB unlock global Now, few questions. Do I need to time.sleep(0.xxx) in any of these while True: loops, not to overwhelm CPU? I can measure the time at beginning and end of each iteration to make things happen fixed number of times per second, but should I? And another: do I get it right that instead of lock global you mean: while global.locked: time.sleep(0.001) lock global And I also wonder how do I make sure that 2 threads don't pass this while loop simultaneously and both try locking global. There is a probability, not? Now, for update thread: DLB That is all DLB Update thread DLB while True: DLB lock global DLB copy state variables to local DLB unlock global DLB compute new world state (check for collisions -- bullet hits) DLB for c in client_list DLB send world state to c In my yesterday experiment, I have a separate thread for each of 2 clients, and what I do there is: def thr_send_status(player_sock): while 1: t, sub_addr = player_sock.recvfrom(128) #player ready to accept player_sock.sendto(encode_status(g.get_status()), sub_addr) I'm reading 1 byte from client every time before sending new update to him. OK, Ok, I know that's not good, ok. Now, I like your idea much more, where you say we first measure the processing speed of each client, and send data to every client as often as he can process it: DLB Slow client receives the first at T0, but the last (packet 100) comes in DLB at T0+60. Fast client receives all packets in T0+10... DLB It took 60 seconds to receive 10 seconds of data. Client sends DLB back to server a rate of 6. Other client sends back rate of 1. DLB Server now uses a modulo function on packet sends... DLB for c in client DLB if t mod c.rate = 0 DLB send current world packet to client Yes, this I great, but what if speed changes? Should I retest this around every 10 seconds? I mean, server sending too much data to a client is ok for server, but very bad for a client, since it starts hanging and loses synchronization, unless I use a timestamp to throw away late states (I think I need to re-read all your previous posts, you've explained about synchronizing already). While thinking about this, I've decided to go the wrong way, and to wait for confirmation from client before sending next pack. Still, it shouldn't slow anything a lot, because client does this: def thr_get_status(self, g, player_sock, player_id): while 1: player_sock.sendto(!, addr) #ready self.local_status = decode_status(player_sock.recvfrom(128)[0]) g.set_status(self.local_status) So they simply exchange data all the time in separate threads, even
Re: pygettext ?
Hi, On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, cantabile wrote: Hi, I'm trying to write an internationalized app. I'm learning python and read that pygettext would help me, but I found elsewhere it was obsolete (??) So, what's the correct and up to date tool to i18n python ? Short answer: the functionality of pygettext has been incorporated in the main gettext tool, so pygettext is obsolete. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen *** student of Artifical Intelligence email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** mobile phone: +31-6-44360778 www.vanschouwen.info *** help mee met GNOME vertalen: nl.gnome.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
AFAIK not with HTMLParser or htmllib. You might try (if you haven't done yet) htmllib and see, which parser is more forgiving. Thanks, I'll try htmllib. In other case, I found a solution. Feeding data to the HTMLParser by chunks extracted from the string using string.split(), will allow me to loose only one tag at a time when an exception is raised ! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Programming Contest: First results
Brian Quinlan wrote: Brian Quinlan wrote: Tomi Kyöstilä wrote: Why don't I see my solution (__author__ = dOb) in the results? I'm sure that you got it as you replied to my mail. Your solution is now included. See: http://www.sweetapp.com/pycontest/contest1/results.html Good job! Cheers, Brian Thanks! :) Any idea when the next competition is coming? (it hasn't been quite weekly as you hoped, eh? ;) -- dOb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
From http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/: You didn't write that awful page. You're just trying to get some data out of it. Right now, you don't really care what HTML is supposed to look like. Neither does this parser. True, I just want to extract some data from html documents. But the problem is the same. The parser looses the position he was in the string when he encounters a bad tag. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Programming Contest: First results
Tomi Kyöstilä wrote: Any idea when the next competition is coming? (it hasn't been quite weekly as you hoped, eh? ;) Uh no. It turns out that I have less time than I thought, though a big chunk of it should be freed-up after this weekend. I do have an idea... :-) Cheers, Brian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: JBUS and Python which way
[mjekl] My aim is to have an idea of the alternatives technologies for accessing information produced by a machine with a JBUS interface (RS232) and how to access this information realtime in Python (connecting a PC locally via serial port). I'm aware of pyserial but I wonder if there is a library/module that takes care of accessing/interpreting JBUS protocol. I've searched for this without results. A possibility you may not have considered is to use a Java library for Modbus/JBus, and then use jython to control that. The following looks like a likely candidate. http://sourceforge.net/projects/jamod/ I imagine that writing your own cpython implementation wouldn't be that difficult. I did some modbus work in C back in the 90s, and it was pretty straightforward, but requiring a lot of finicky bit-twiddling. I'm pretty certain that writing a python implementation would be a snap. I also searched the net looking for some information so that I could have a birds-eye-view on this subject and got the impression that a possibility is to have the communication (JBUS protocol / buffering) managed by some hardware component. Is this so? Can some-one give me some pointers/resources on this subject. Would it still be possible to work with Python. Well, if you do find some hardware component that manages the JBus interface, you've then turned your problem into How to talk between the PC and the JBus instrument-manager rather than How to talk between the PC and JBus instruments. Depending on the protocol used by the instrument-manager, you may be able to use python to control that. HTH, -- alan kennedy -- email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python IDE's
Jon Hewer wrote:
I do use Vim a lot. I am currently using it for some PHP development
i'm doing. I'm been using it so much recently that i keep pressing
ESC and typing vi commands out of vi.
But, if i use Vi, then whenever i want to test some code i have to
open up python, import the necessary modules and run it - I like the
idea of developing python in an IDE and just hitting a run button.
the Emacs + python-mode combo solve this problem - and in fact gives
much more than the common run and print results feature of most IDEs,
since you can run either the whole script or any part of it in an
(embedded) interactive python shell - just as if you had copy/pasted the
code in the python shell... This is very useful for exploring/quick
testing.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: distutils package_dir newbie
hello Robert I've tried your setup.py file and now it seems to work... I've made the following fault in the setup: I did use: setup(..., packages = ['project_dev'], ...) instead of the correct one: setup(..., packages = ['project_user'], ...) you have been a great help Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
wmi addprinterdriver for remote PC
Hi all, cannot work this one out at all...
import win32com.client
WBEM =
win32com.client.GetObject(rwinmgmts:{impersonationLevel=impersonate}!\\
+ servername + r\root\cimv2)
WBEM.Security_.Privileges.AddAsString(SeLoadDriverPrivilege)
drv = WBEM.Get(Win32_PrinterDriver)
drv.Properties_('Name').Value = HP Color LaserJet 8550 PCL 5C
drv.Properties_('SupportedPlatform').Value = Windows NT x86
drv.Properties_('Version').Value = 3
drv.Properties_('DriverPath').Value =
C:\\Printdrivers\\clj8550pcl5cwin2kxp
drv.Properties_('InfName').Value =
C:\\Printdrivers\\clj8550pcl5cwin2kxp\\hpbf401i.inf
method = drv.Methods_('AddPrinterDriver')
InParms = method.InParameters
InParms.Properties_.Item('DriverInfo').Value = drv
drv.ExecMethod_('AddPrinterDriver',InParms)
If servername is . the driver loads. If it is a remote machine the
script runs without any errors but no printerdriver is created. As far
as can tell its not a privilege issue and when running through
pythonwin it looks like the object is created but it doesn't show up in
server properties. It also runs too quickly so I'm pretty sure its not
doing anything. I've tried different drivers but no joy.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: wmi addprinterdriver for remote PC
soz I missed the glaring error. The file paths need to be to a UNC location of have to exist on the remote PC. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
Novice Experl wrote: I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port, and changes the data on it according to keyboard input. I hope I can get it to run under windows xp and / or windows 2000. How can I do this? What do I need to know? It doesn't look like the standard library (the one under my pillow) has that feature. In addition, I've heard that with newer versions of windows don't let you communicate with the port directly, instead requiring interfacing with some driver? I came across this: http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyparallel.html but it seems to only be used for direct access (would it work with XP?), and hasn't been updated for a couple of years. In addition, it requires something called Java Communications (JavaComm) extension for Java/Jython, doesn't provide a link to it, and when I google it - google returns the page I came from! To add to the confusion, I hope I can provide a py2exe executable of my script instead of forcing a complete installation. --= Posted using GrabIt = --= Binary Usenet downloading made easy =- -= Get GrabIt for free from http://www.shemes.com/ =- Here's teh link to jaavx.comm - http://java.sun.com/products/javacomm/index.jsp. The interface stuff, hmm I'm not quite sure what you are on about you access ports through the win32 API which is the 'driver' - you could probably bypass this and start playing around with assembly code but there's no point!! Cheers, Neil -- Neil Benn Senior Automation Engineer Cenix BioScience BioInnovations Zentrum Tatzberg 47 D-01307 Dresden Germany Tel : +49 (0)351 4173 154 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cenix Website : http://www.cenix-bioscience.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
florent wrote: True, I just want to extract some data from html documents. But the problem is the same. The parser looses the position he was in the string when he encounters a bad tag. Are you saying that Beautiful Soup can't parse the HTML? If so, I'm sure the author would like an example so he can fix it. -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
Novice Experl wrote: I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port Use pyParallel. You don't have to worry about the Java stuff unless you're using Jython. Just follow the instructions on the page (download, unarchive, python setup.py install). After that you have to understand how the parallel port works, but I'll assume you already do or can use the web to figure it out. -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:11:52 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the link, Grig. I wasn't aware of the py lib so far. The possibility to create fixtures at the three different scopes is exactly what I was looking for. Anyway, I think it would be nice to have that feature in the standard lib unittest as well. It should not be too hard to add setUpOnce and tearDownOnce methods in addition to setUp and tearDown. Actually, I am wondering that there doesn't seem to be any development progress since unittest was included in the standard lib of Python 2.1 in August 2001. I had expected that such an important module would be continually improved and maintained. How come? So few people using unit tests? Or do most people write their own testing code or use py.test? I can answer this question, at least for myself. I use regression testing a lot, and have done so since before Python's unittest was written. Originally I just used my own code, which didn't use classes just functions that called other functions. later on I decided to have a look at unittest. I found two problems with it. Firstly it didn't stop when it reached an error, it continued doing the rewsr of the tests. This wasn't what i wanted: most of the time when a test fails, I want to look at what's happening. I don't want unnecessary information about other tests, I want to concentrate on that one thing. Also, the log of information sent to stdout about each test was less informative than I wanted (and which my old system provided). So I had a look at unittest to see if I could modify it to fix these problems. However, I found the code to be rather complex and hard to understand so I decided it would be quicker to write my own testing framework. Which I did. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:02:09 +0200, Björn Lindström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it make sense to add globaleSetup and globalTearDown methods to the TestCase class? I think at least it would not harm anybody. Where should such proposals be submitted? In general that's not such a good idea. If you build your tests like that, it gets hard to know which test really went wrong, No it isn't, provided you've coded your setup code and tests well. And if you haven't coded your setup code and tests well, you're fucked anyway. Programming languages and libraries should assume the programmers is competent and knows what he's doing. People who disagree should stick to Java or Pascal or something. and you might get the situation where the whole set of tests works, but depend on each other in some way. (This can also happen for more obscure reasons, and is worth looking out for whichever way you do it.) Sure. And if the programmer is competent, he'll bear that in mind when he's writing the tests. So, rebuilding the environment for the each before every single test is generally worth the overhead. Note generally. Sometimes it isn't. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:26:28 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Björn Lindström wrote: Would it make sense to add globaleSetup and globalTearDown methods to the TestCase class? In general that's not such a good idea. I completely agree and I think it makes a lot of sense that unittest calls setUp and tearDown for every single test. However, the fact that this is *generally* the best way doesn't exclude the fact that there are *exceptions* when it makes sense to setUp and tearDown not for every test, e.g. when it is absolutely sure that the fixture cannot be destroyed by the individual tests or when creating the fixture takes too much time. I already gave the example of creating database connections or even creating/importing whole databases. My question was, how do I handle these cases with the standard lib unittest? According to the extreme programming paradigm, testing should be done several times a day. So a requirement for extreme programm is that tests are fast enough. If the testing needs too much time, people are discouraged to test often. Indeed. Running the tests should ideally take less than a few seconds. Any longer, and people won't use them so often. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:13:08 +0200, rafi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to the extreme programming paradigm, testing should be done several times a day. So a requirement for extreme programm is that tests are fast enough. If the testing needs too much time, people are discouraged to test often. Well as I said above, a unit test is dedicated to a single function or method. So wehn you update a function / method, you should test the whole class or module, but maybe not the whole application Often this is true. However sometimes the application is complex with all sorts of dependencies between different parts of it (I know, these should be kept to a minimum), and changes in one thing can break stuff in another module. When that happens, you want to know about it sooner rather than later. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:05:16 +0100, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil Hunt wrote: Kamaelia seems it might be an interesting project. However, I don't think the project is well served by this announcement -- which I find vague and hard to understand. Which is a shame, because it means that other people probably don't understand it very well either, which means less people will use it. It is a shame, and thanks for mentioning this. Let me have another go :-) (ripping to shreds welcome :) OK, here's a better go. (It's always difficult to think where to pitch this sort of thing) ---START--- The project aims to make it simple to build networked multimedia systems (eg audio, video, interactive systems), There's plenty of software that facilitates networking, for example Python already has software for tcp and http clients/servers, and for xmlrpc remote procedure calls. So what does Kamaelia do that's extra? I imagine it's to to with streaming large amounts of data. For example, a streaming video or audio player. Or VoIP, perhaps. which are naturally componentised and naturally concurrent allowing quick and fast reuse in the same way as Unix pipelines do. OK, so what do the components in the pipelines do? What sort of data do they hold? Unix pipelines act on ascii files; I assume you are do this on audio and visual data. What langauage will the ele,ments in thne pipelines be written it? I assume some will be in C/C++ for speed. It is designed as a practical toolkit, such that you can build systems such as: When you say you who do you mean? Is the audience programmers or less technical people? A project that allows non-technical people to build complex network applications is an ambitious one, but not impossible (I'd find it very impressive and very exciting, particularly if it runs on devices such as mobile phones). * Ogg Vorbis streaming server/client systems (via vorbissimple) * Simple network aware games (via pygame) * Quickly build TCP based network servers and clients What sort of servers and clients? Serving what? Could I use it, for example, to build a * Quickly build Multicast based network servers and clients Serving what? Could I use it, for example, to build an n-player encrypted (I mean proper encryption here, the sort GCHQ or the NSA can't break) VoIP server to allow people to do conference calls over the Internet? It runs on Linux, Window, Mac OS X with a subset running on Series 60 phones. The basic underlying metaphor of a component us like an office worker with inboxes and outboxes, with deliveries occuring between desks, offices, and depts. The component can thus do work anyway it likes but only communicates with these inboxes and outboxes. Like office workers, components run in parallel, and to achieve this are generally implemented using python generators, but can also used threads. That metaphor brings up an image (at least to me) that the sorts of data that can be communicated are things like documents, spreadsheets, business graphs, memos. Also the metaphor doesn't indicate any sense of real-time-ness; stuff on an in tray isn't immediately processed and moved to the out tray.I'm pretty certain that's not what you have in mind. May I suggest a different metaphor? Consider a hi-fi system where you plug cables in to control the dataflow. For example, an unamplified audio signal goes into an amp, the amp has various dials and buttons on it, and an amplified signal comes out. Note that the signal processing is done in real time. Is that the sort of thing you are working on? The rationale behind the project is to provide a toolkit enabling the development of new protocols, including streaming, for large scale media delivery. OK, I get the straming part of it. But what asbout non-streaming stuff? What other protocols are necessary? The license essentially allows use in proprietary systems without change, but all changes to the system itself must be shared. Fair enough. ---END--- Is that clearer ? A short summary of all that could be: Kamaelia is a networking/communications infrastructure for innovative multimedia systems. Kamaelia uses a component architecture designed to simplify creation and testing of new protocols and large scale media delivery systems. Hopefully that's clearer than: Kamaelia is a collection of Axon components designed for network protocol experimentation in a single threaded, select based environment. Axon components are python generators are augmented by inbox and outbox queues (lists) for communication in a communicating sequential processes (CSP) like fashion. [ which you noted I really have very little idea what this means. ] Sort of. But it's still a bit vague. For example: networking/communications infrastructure can mean a lot of things. It doesn't even specify whether it is hardware or software. innovative. This actually has two meanings. One is is new / allows new things to be
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:35:08 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some (many?) people don't like the unittest module, because it is not very pythonic - nothing to wonder as it has its root in the Java world. That's probably one of the reasons why there are other (more pythonic) unittesting frameworks for Python out there. So I think it would have been better that unittest had been named PUnit to make clear that it is a JUnit port and to allow a more pythonic testing framework to be added to the Python's standard lib. Not a bad idea. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:53:29 +0100, Tim Golden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Michael Sparks] | Phil Hunt wrote: | | Kamaelia seems it might be an interesting project. However, I don't | think the project is well served by this announcement -- which I | find vague and hard to understand. Which is a shame, because it | means that other people probably don't understand it very well | either, which means less people will use it. | | It is a shame, and thanks for mentioning this. Let me have another | go :-) (ripping to shreds welcome :) | | OK, here's a better go. (It's always difficult to think where to pitch | this sort of thing) [... snip ...] I just wanted to say that I find the ideas behind Kamaelia interesting, and I only wish I had an application for it! Because I'm not especially into media-streaming, I'm more interested in it from the point of view of the generator-based architecture. What prompted me to write now was in appreciation of Michael's taking the effort to recast his words into a form which might well be understood better by others (including me) when he might well have simply huffed a bit and told the other poster to read the words on the site and stop complaining about the HTML! I'd second that! I'm not trying to be critical, honestly, I'm trying to understand something that looks like it could be very cool indeed. (And on a more general level to improve the average quality of documentation for open source projects. Something which is bvery often deficient.) -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:44:01 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In August 2001, there was a thread about the Art of Unit Testing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/aa2bd17e7f995d05/71a29faf0a0485d5 Paul Moore asked the legitimate question why there is no hook for a global fixture code that is run only once for the whole TestCase, as opposed to the normal setUp and tearDown code that is run for every single test in the TestCase. A global fixture would be preferable whenever creating the fixture is time consuming, e.g. you have to create a database connection or even a whole database. What would be the preferred solution for such global fixtures? Simply create the database, run the TestCase, and drop the database? Would it make sense to add globaleSetup and globalTearDown methods to the TestCase class? I think at least it would not harm anybody. Where should such proposals be submitted? I think this cowuld be very useful. As to the name, do other xUnit testing frameworks have a common name? If not, may I suggest setupAll() and tearDownAll(). -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (phil hunt) writes: [...] Unix pipelines act on ascii files; No, they don't. -- Sergei. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:19:05 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: rafi wrote: 'should' may be too strong, 'may' may be better. In the meantime I found: http://python-mock.sourceforge.net/ Thanks for the link. Björn also pointed to http://pmock.sourceforge.net Using mock objects sounds like a good idea. A problem with mock objects may be that they make writing tests for the occasional programmer yet another bit more difficult, and that you always have to ensure your mock objects really mock the real objects perfectly, so you have to write another test for that. The behavior and the API of the real objects may change every now and then. Let me summarize some good answers in this thread: - unittest is deliberately intended to be a JUnit implementation - unittest is for *unit* testing (only) ;-) I use regression testing (using my lintest module, which is functionally similar to unittest) on the whole application. I really see no reason why the concept should be limited to testing individual modules (or roughly similar-sized pieces). -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:18:51 -0400, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're going to quote XP rules of thumb, the tests should be independent and very fast, and if you have a setup code that is taking a long time, it's likely a code smell of some kind, and you should be fixing the design which prevents you writing these tests with minimal and quick setup. Are these really like acceptance tests? If they were unit tests, they should take only a few minutes to run, total, Eek! Seconds, more like. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Christoph Zwerschke wrote: - unittest is for *unit* testing (only) ;-) Why would you say that? We've used it extensively for a wide ranging of testing, not limited to unit tests. - use mock objects to mimic the behaviour of external components like databases ...when doing unit testing. If you mock while doing higher level testing, you'll eventually regret it in most cases. Also, if one of the more pythonic unit testing modules will be mature enough and widely accepted, I think it would be good to make it Python's standard (lib) testing framework and rename the current unittest back to pyunit or punit. What, and break all the code that currently does import unittest? -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Wheel-reinvention with Python
Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 20:17 -0400, Mike Meyer wrote: Um - you're not answering the question I asked. I asked What app do I use to bundle my applications for Unix, ala py2exe (or whatever it is) for Windows? You're telling me how to install wxPython on those platforms. I know how to install wxPython. What I want to know is how to build an application bundle for all those Unix systems for a Python app I use that includes wxPython - or any other third party libraries I may be using. Sorry, I assumed you'd know about distutils: Cliff, please quit being an ass. You keep assuming that because some tool isn't the answer to my question that I don't know about it. That's simply rude. It would be *much* more polite to ask What's wrong with distutils rather than saying So you don't know about distutils. http://www.python.org/doc/current/dist/ http://www.python.org/doc/current/dist/built-dist.html distutils can go so far as to build an rpm for you, but you'll need to package things like .debs yourself. I've very familiar with distutils. It doesn't do what I asked for, in that it only bundles up *my* code. It doesn't bundle the things I depend on the way py2exe does. It's patently *not* the answer to the question I asked. For those who want .deb's out of distutils, there's a PR on sourceforge that includes a patch to make it generate .debs that works quite well. Of course, anyone who built a .deb (or an RPM, or a port, or whatever) that bundled up everything it needed would be doing *the wrong thing*. Those formats are designed for packaging single distributions, not applications. They include dependency information that is used to fetch the dependencies and install them. From my standpoint, the problem here is that you then have to get the dependencies into the repository before you can put your application there and have it work. For instance, my port of bicyclerepairman is stuck at an old version because I haven't gotten a port PyMac accepted yet (it also has to do with bugs in the xemacs port, but that's another story). I'm surprised you haven't mentioned eggs yet. Those work across all the platforms I named. Of course, they aren't the answer to my question either, because, like PRMs et al, they only reference external dependencies, they don't include them. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Christoph Zwerschke wrote: I think wanting to have a more global initialization indicates that you are acutally not wanting to do a unit test, but a more global test of the overall system, something like an acceptance or integration test, i.e. you are trying to abuse unittest for something it was not intended to be used for. As I mentioned in another post just now, we use unittest for acceptance testing and other kinds of high level testing. We also try very very hard to follow XP rules of thumb in terms of keeping our setup code short and fast. As a result, we generally don't need to do what you are finding you need to do, and unittest is quite adequate. Don't try to make the point that unittest cannot do acceptance testing; it's _your_ acceptance tests which are the issue here, and I agree unittest was not designed specifically to do exactly what you want. It also wasn't designed to prevent it, but really just to be uninvolved in this issue. The whole JUnit family wasn't designed to solve all testing problems, but (I infer, from long use) to be a fairly simple and therefore general approach. It doesn't have a huge array of features supporting all possible approaches to testing, but it's simple enough not to prevent you from doing what you need to do in most cases. If you want a test framework with built-in support for what you need, that's fine. In programming, one size doesn't fit all. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
phil hunt wrote: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:26:28 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to the extreme programming paradigm, testing should be done several times a day. So a requirement for extreme programm is that tests are fast enough. If the testing needs too much time, people are discouraged to test often. Indeed. Running the tests should ideally take less than a few seconds. Any longer, and people won't use them so often. That's probably too general a statement to be very useful, and I don't think it's probably helpful to a newcomer who is seeking guidance. If one makes the XP-style distinction between unit and acceptance tests, then the acceptance test *suite* should take no more than some number of minutes. I believe ten minutes absolute max is a commonly offered rule of thumb, but I've found even eight minutes a little too long. Five seems to be just fine, and less if of course wonderful. For unit tests, the entire suite should take only a minute or two, max, if possible, and preferably well under a minute. If you're doing test-driven development (TDD), you will want to be able to run unit tests (though maybe not all of them) sometimes a couple of times per minute! If the overhead is fifteen seconds, you can't type much new code in between running the tests. Still, in a large project (and especially one written in Python, with the overhead of interpreter startup and the cost of executing bytecode) the suite can get fairly long if you have many hundreds of tests. In that case, there's nothing that says you can't run individual test files, or even individual test cases, when you are focused on one small area of the code. That should let you run tests in only a couple of seconds, as phil just recommended, in almost any case. Having your code organized nicely into packages can help as well. If you have a helpful test runner utility which scans subdirectories for test cases, you can easily run all the tests in a given package independently of the rest of the app while you are working on that one package, reducing the risk inherent in running only a subset of your full test suite. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
COM makepy problem
Hello together,
My system:
ActivePython 2.4.1
Windows XP
I write a COM Server in VC++ 6.0 using ATL. So far so good. While I
develop I got sometimes strange behaviour with makepy utility. Today
again. :-(
What I do on the python (COM client) side.
1) Register COM server
2) Use COM makepy utility
3) Create com client object using win32com.client.Dispatch(...)
The generated file in
c:\python24\lib\site-packages\win32com\gen_py\{...}\IinterfaceName.py
seem not work corectly.
From the traceback, when i do
myObj = win32com.client.Dispatch(ProgId)
--
[...]
__import__(win32com.gen_py. + dir_name + . + child)
File
c:\Python24\lib\site-packages\win32com\gen_py\D0BC1B38-B4AC-480A-86B0-81
DA572765CDx0x1x0\IDssInterface.py, line 125
IDssInterface_vtables_ = [dispatch_ = 1
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
file IDssInterface.py (starting at line 123)
[...]
LCID = 0x0
IDssInterface_vtables_dispatch_ = 1
IDssInterface_vtables_ = [
[...]
Now I change the file IDssInterface.py by hand to:
--
[...]
LCID = 0x0
IDssInterface_vtables_dispatch_ = 1
IDssInterface_vtables_ = [
[...]
and everything works fine !!!
Does anybody have a suggestion/idea/hint on that ???
Regards
Alexander
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Re: Art of Unit Testing (Acceptance Tests)
Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter Hansen wrote: What's wrong with using Python's existing global support, and just having your test case setUp() call a global setup routine which checks whether that global setup work has already been done and, if not, does it once and sets a flag to say that it has now been done? I've done this easily in the few cases where I've wanted this behaviour. It doesn't seem complex enough to warrant adding to the standard unit test support. Actually I already thought about doing it that way, but then I thought it is so ugly, there must be a simpler solution ;-) If you're going to quote XP rules of thumb, the tests should be independent and very fast, and if you have a setup code that is taking a long time, it's likely a code smell of some kind, and you should be fixing the design which prevents you writing these tests with minimal and quick setup. Are these really like acceptance tests? If they were unit tests, they should take only a few minutes to run, total, and you should be running them all *many* times a day, not twice. You're right. I think wanting to have a more global initialization indicates that you are acutally not wanting to do a unit test, but a more global test of the overall system, something like an acceptance or integration test, i.e. you are trying to abuse unittest for something it was not intended to be used for. Maybe since unittest is the only testing framework included with the standard lib, people tend to use it for all testing purposes. If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. An excellent point, even though it's somewhat blunted by the inclusion of doctest in the core. Another point to ponder is that the originators of xUnit, Kent Beck and Erich Gamma, did not intend it to be used for acceptance testing. That ecological niche is filled by FIT. The Python port of Fit can be acquired from the file libraries of the FitNessse or Extremeprogramming Yahoo mailing lists. I'll get it onto the CheeseShop (what used to be the Python Package Index) one of these days Real Soon Now. (Arlo gave me a good shove at Agile2005 in that direction.) The FIT developers are working on standardizing the specs, and expensive setups and teardown are definitely on the agenda. In fact, that's one of my work items... Unit testing usually does not require expensive setups and teardowns, at least if you're not working on real tangled legacy code. Acceptance testing does. Meanwhile, there's a book and two web sites: fit.c2.com and www.fitnesse.org to look at. John Roth Python Fit -- Christoph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HELP:sorting list of outline numbers
Delaney, Timothy (Tim) wrote: Scott David Daniels wrote: For 2.3: (using DSU -- Decorate, Sort, Undecorate) ... lst = ['1', '1.2', '1.12', '1.1', '3.1'] decorated = [(numparts(txt), txt) for txt in lst] decorated.sort() lst[:] = [txt for code, txt in decorated] Slightly better to do:: ... lst = ['1', '1.2', '1.12', '1.1', '3.1'] decorated = [(numparts(txt), i, txt) for i, txt in enumerate(lst)] decorated.sort() lst[:] = [txt[-1] for d in decorated] In the particular case given, I don't think it matters. In general, however, I agree the latter is a better idea. Just so someone hopping in here is clear about what is better, and explicitly _not_ because I think Tim misunderstands the issue, The latter version, in the case of a match on the decorated version compares first the key, and then, if the keys match, it compares the position in the list. In no case does it actually compare the original list elements. The 2.4 version (just using the key= form of sort) does the same kind of thing; it avoids comparing the element and only compares keys. The reason you care about this is that is can be arbitrarily expensive to compare elements, or the elements themselves may be incomparable (think of complex numbers). --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pygettext ?
Reinout van Schouwen a écrit : Hi, On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, cantabile wrote: Hi, I'm trying to write an internationalized app. I'm learning python and read that pygettext would help me, but I found elsewhere it was obsolete (??) So, what's the correct and up to date tool to i18n python ? Short answer: the functionality of pygettext has been incorporated in the main gettext tool, so pygettext is obsolete. regards, Thanks for the answer. Is there a good tutorial somewhere ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pygettext ?
Jon Hewer a écrit : Hi I'm pretty new to Python, and recently been working my way through Dive Into Python, and I'm currently writing a really simple rss reader purely to get familiarised with the language. I want to move onto something a little more challenging, but I'm stuck for ideas on what to do. I'm after a project that can start quite simple, but has lots of room for expansion when I get more confident with Python. Ideally something which would start as a command line program, and then when I feel adventurous I could build a GUI for it. I have just bought the Foundations of Python Network Programming book, so maybe something network related would be good? Cheers Jon Excuse me but what has this answer to do with my question ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
cut paste text between tkinter widgets
Is there a simple way to cut and paste from a tkinter text widget to an entry widget? I know I could create a mouse button event that triggers a popup (message widget) prompting for cut/paste in each of the widgets using a temp variable to hold the text, but I don't wnat to reinvent the wheel if there already is something that does the job. Thanks, Bill -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: 2-player game, client and server at localhost
Michael Rybak wrote: As stated above, that's how I'm trying it right now. Still, if doing it turn-base, I would have to create a new thread every time. I have some other questions though - please see below. No, you should never need to create a new thread upon receiving input. What you want is inter-thread communication, a synchronous queue. A synchronous queue is a thread-safe queue. You'd push event updates to it from the communication thread, and in the update thread, WHICH IS ALWAYS RUNNING, you'd check the queue each loop to see if there was anything new. Now, few questions. Do I need to time.sleep(0.xxx) in any of these while True: loops, not to overwhelm CPU? I can measure the time at beginning and end of each iteration to make things happen fixed number of times per second, but should I? And another: do I get it right that instead of lock global you mean: while global.locked: time.sleep(0.001) lock global And I also wonder how do I make sure that 2 threads don't pass this while loop simultaneously and both try locking global. There is a probability, not? You have the right idea, that locking's important, but when the grandparent poster said lock global, he meant lock global. Locks are low-level primitives in any threading system, they can also be called mutexes. Attempting to acquire a lock returns immediate if the lock can be acquired; if it can't (and it's set to block, which is the default) the thread will wait until it -can- acquire the lock -- the entire thrust of your 'time.sleep' loop, only good. See thread.acquire and threading.Lock for python built-in locks. In my yesterday experiment, I have a separate thread for each of 2 clients, and what I do there is: def thr_send_status(player_sock): while 1: t, sub_addr = player_sock.recvfrom(128) #player ready to accept player_sock.sendto(encode_status(g.get_status()), sub_addr) I'm reading 1 byte from client every time before sending new update to him. OK, Ok, I know that's not good, ok. Now, I like your idea much more, where you say we first measure the processing speed of each client, and send data to every client as often as he can process it: Just how much data are you sending in each second? Testing client speed and managing updates that way is relatively advanced, and I'd argue that it's only necessary when your data has the potential to swamp a network connection. While thinking about this, I've decided to go the wrong way, and to wait for confirmation from client before sending next pack. No, you definitely don't need to do this. TCP is a reliable protocol, and so long as the connection stays up your client will receive data in-order with guaranteed arrival. If you were using UDP, then yes you'd need (possibly) to send confirmation, but you'd probably need a more advanced version to handle missing / out-of-order packets. I'm also almost sure it's wrong to have separate sockets and threads for each player, you say I should select()/dispatch instead, but I'm afraid of that some *thing* being wrong with select() for Windows. Somehow, I'm doing a lot of thins the wrong way :( Just use the Twisted library. It abstracts that away, and not touching sockets is really much nicer. Before describing another problem I've encountered, I thought I'd remind you of what my test game is: each player controls it's ball by moving mouse pointer, towards which his ball starts moving; that's it. What's the nature of your evend update? Do you say mouse moved N or mouse moved to (123,456)? If it's the latter, then without motion prediction there's no way that either simulation should have the ball overshoot the mouse. Synchronization, however, will still be an issue. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HELP:sorting list of outline numbers
Felix Collins wrote:
Using Decorate, Sort , Undecorate...
works like a charm.
As a one-liner, you can also deconstruct and rebuild the outline numbers:
new_outline = ['.'.join(v) for v in (sorted([k.split('.') for k in
old_outline]))]
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HTML/text formatting question
I have a tool that outputs data in either html or text output. Currently I'm writing chucnks like: if html: print 'htmlbody bgcolor=CC' print 'table border=1 bgcolor=FF width=800' print 'trtd colspan=2h2' print 'Differences %s: %s' % (htypestr, lbl1) if html: ... This seems clunky and my next step was going to be to define generic functions which would generate the surrounding html tags only when passed the proper argument. I was wondering if there was a better way to do this with a standard Python library. It looked like formatter might but that it also might be too low-level. Any help is appreciated, Jeff -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: MySQL help
Hey Dennis thanks for the tips I haven't had a chance to take another stab at that code yet but I think I may try some of your suggestions. The SQL statements are valid but something doesn't appear to work right I may try and switch them to what you're suggesting and see if that helps with my problem. Thanks, -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: cut paste text between tkinter widgets
William Gill wrote: Is there a simple way to cut and paste from a tkinter text widget to an entry widget? I know I could create a mouse button event that triggers a popup (message widget) prompting for cut/paste in each of the widgets using a temp variable to hold the text, but I don't wnat to reinvent the wheel if there already is something that does the job. 1) TKinter text and entry widgets should already have proper event bindings for cut/copy/paste. Test first with your system-default keyboard shortcuts (^C, ^X, ^V on Windows). I haven't tried it myself, but I think those events bind to 'Cut', 'Copy', and 'Paste', so generating them should Do The Right Thing with selected text. 2) If you need to do any processing on the clipboard data, look at widget.selection_get [so named because of the way that X handles its clipboard] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
pain
Hello,
I started to learn python some months ago. Mostly for fun, but I
replaced php to python in many tools at my company in the last weeks.
Because of our boss decision now I have to learn java. I can tell java
is one of the worst things including WW2. Even after seeing the light I
may vomit when I write java code.
Look at this tutorial from java.com:
public class BasicsDemo {
public static void main(String[] args) {
int sum = 0;
for (int current = 1; current = 10; current++) {
sum += current;
}
System.out.println(Sum = + sum);
}
}
It is print sum(range(11)) in python.
I just had to tell this, sorry for the bandwith. I suggest you to feel
lucky if you may use python at your work.
Mage
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Re: Py: a very dangerous language
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Peter Otten wrote: Harald Massa wrote: Always go to bed exactly when you want to write the first lambda. Eureka. The Twentieth Pythonic Thesis has finally surfaced. So what does it mean that i do much of my programming in bed? tom -- non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, .. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: using httplib for authentication
James Stroud wrote: Hello All, I want to use python to download files from sites where authentication is required. The page appears to send a form with the login and pass by post. I would like to log in and keep this session open within python and download a number of files automatically. Could anyone kindly point me in the right direction? I have discovered httplib and read the documentation and looked at the examples, but they don't seem helpful for this. Hello James, httplib is built on top of the socket module - but is still a library meant for doing fairly low level http operations. For fetching URLs, urllib2 is probably the way to go. It handles GET and POST with ease. If you think this will do the job then you could try reading the urllib2 tutorial at : http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles.shtml#http You might wnat to look at other extension modules too - ClientCookie for handling cookies, ClientForm for automatically filling in the forms, BeautifulSoup for parsing HTML pages All the Best, Fuzzy http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
AFAIK not with HTMLParser or htmllib. You might try (if you haven't done yet) htmllib and see, which parser is more forgiving. You were right, the HTMLParser of htmllib is more permissive. He just ignores the bad tags ! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
socket and os.system
I HAVE THIS PYTHON PROGRAMM: [test]$ cat socpb.py import BaseHTTPServer, SocketServer, os, socket, threading # the server initialisation server = SocketServer.TCPServer((socket.gethostname(), 8088),BaseHTTPServer.BaseHTTPRequestHandler) t=threading.Thread(target=server.serve_forever) t.setDaemon(1) t.start() # the command os.system(sleep 3600) [test]$ I LAUNCH IT: [test]$ python socpb.py [1]+ Stopped python socpb.py [test]$ bg [1]+ python socpb.py I LOOK THE PORT IT USE -- OK: [test]$ netstat -taupe | grep 8088 tcp 0 0 test:8088 *:* LISTEN mik 32481 14092/python I KILL THE PYTHON PROGRAMM (OR IT STOP BY ANOTHER WAY): [test]$ kill 14092 [test]$ [1]+ Terminated python socpb.py I LOOK THE PORT -- NOK, I EXPECTED THAT THE PORT WAS FREED BUT SLEEP IS LISTENING AND IF I TRY TO LAUNCH MY PROGRAMM, IT FAIL: [test]$ netstat -taupe | grep 8088 tcp 0 0 test:8088 *:* LISTEN mik 32481 14094/sleep [test]$ python socpb.py Traceback (most recent call last): File socpb.py, line 4, in ? server = SocketServer.TCPServer((socket.gethostname(), 8088),BaseHTTPServer.BaseHTTPRequestHandler) File /usr/local/lib/python2.3/SocketServer.py, line 330, in __init__ self.server_bind() File /usr/local/lib/python2.3/SocketServer.py, line 341, in server_bind self.socket.bind(self.server_address) File string, line 1, in bind socket.error: (98, 'Address already in use') IF I KILL THE SLEEP, ALL COME BACK FINE: [test]$ kill 14094 [test]$ netstat -taupe | grep 8088 [test]$ python socpb.py
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
Are you saying that Beautiful Soup can't parse the HTML? If so, I'm sure the author would like an example so he can fix it. I finally use the htmllib module wich is more permissive than the HTMLParser module when parsing bad html documents. Anyway, where can I find the author's contact informations ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Benji York wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. +1 QOTY (quote of the year) Personally, i'd say it was 50% brains, 40% tenacity and 20% basic arithmetic. 8) tom -- non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, .. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Tom Anderson ha scritto: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Benji York wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. +1 QOTY (quote of the year) Personally, i'd say it was 50% brains, 40% tenacity and 20% basic arithmetic. 8) tom The famed 110% efficiency/commitment/etc every manager wants and talks about comes from this? -- Adriano Varoli Piazza The Inside Out: http://moranar.com.ar MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4410132 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:51:49 -0400, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: phil hunt wrote: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:26:28 +0200, Christoph Zwerschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to the extreme programming paradigm, testing should be done several times a day. So a requirement for extreme programm is that tests are fast enough. If the testing needs too much time, people are discouraged to test often. Indeed. Running the tests should ideally take less than a few seconds. Any longer, and people won't use them so often. That's probably too general a statement to be very useful, and I don't think it's probably helpful to a newcomer who is seeking guidance. I did say ideally; if the test have to take longer, so be it. If one makes the XP-style distinction between unit and acceptance tests, then the acceptance test *suite* should take no more than some number of minutes. I believe ten minutes absolute max is a commonly offered rule of thumb, but I've found even eight minutes a little too long. Five seems to be just fine, and less if of course wonderful. I think we might be talking at cross purposes here. To me acceptance test suite means a test suite that has to be passed each time before a new version of the software is released to the users. I don't see that 10 minutes is a sensible limit here, unless you are releasing more often that once a day. (I once had an acceptance test suite that ran for 12 hours; I used to run it nightly). If you're doing test-driven development (TDD), you will want to be able to run unit tests (though maybe not all of them) sometimes a couple of times per minute! That's what I often do. Still, in a large project (and especially one written in Python, with the overhead of interpreter startup and the cost of executing bytecode) the suite can get fairly long if you have many hundreds of tests. I'm currently running one with 227 assertions in 38 test functions. It runs in 1 second on an AMD 3000+. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
On 03 Aug 2005 17:30:31 +0400, Sergei Organov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (phil hunt) writes: [...] Unix pipelines act on ascii files; No, they don't. Nitpicker. I would have thought it was perfectly obvious, in context, what I meant. -- Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: time.clock() or time.time()
Magnus Lycka wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: time.time() measures real time, while time.clock() measures the time the CPU dedicates to your program. I suppose that varies with the platform... help(time.clock) says: Help on built-in function clock: clock(...) clock() - floating point number Return the CPU time or real time since the start of the process or since the first call to clock(). This has as much precision as the system records. Another thing to notice is that depending on OS, either time.time() or time.clock() might have much higher precision than the other. I didn't notice that. Thanks. However, isn't this thoroughly un-Pythonic? No wonder people have to ask. Wouldn't it be better to have: time.time() - real time, with as much precision as the platform provides. Does not wrap around. time.cputime() - CPU time, or real time on platforms that don't measure CPU time separately from real time. May wrap around in long-running processes. Shane -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
- unittest is for *unit* testing (only) ;-) Why would you say that? We've used it extensively for a wide ranging... That was actually only a quote from this thread that summarizes some of the answers I got: unittest has no support for global fixtures, because it is intended for unit testing, not for global tests. What, and break all the code that currently does import unittest? Just insert the two words punit as between import and unittest, and the code will run as before... -- Christoph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HTML/text formatting question
Dr. Who wrote:
I have a tool that outputs data in either html or text output.
Currently I'm writing chucnks like:
if html:
print 'htmlbody bgcolor=CC'
print 'table border=1 bgcolor=FF width=800'
print 'trtd colspan=2h2'
print 'Differences %s: %s' % (htypestr, lbl1)
if html:
...
I'd create two Formatter classes, one for HTML and one for text. It
looks like, in your case, the HTML one should inherit from the text one.
Something like:
py class TextFormatter(object):
... def print_differences(self, htypestr, lbll):
... print 'Differences %s: %s' % (htypestr, lbll)
...
py class HTMLFormatter(TextFormatter):
... def print_differences(self, htypestr, lbll):
... print 'htmlbody bgcolor=CC'
... print 'table border=1 bgcolor=FF width=800'
... print 'trtd colspan=2h2'
... super(HTMLFormatter, self).print_differences(htypestr, lbll)
... print '/h2/td/tr/table/body/html'
...
py formatter = TextFormatter()
py formatter.print_differences('test', 'one')
Differences test: one
py formatter = HTMLFormatter()
py formatter.print_differences('test', 'one')
htmlbody bgcolor=CC
table border=1 bgcolor=FF width=800
trtd colspan=2h2
Differences test: one
/h2/td/tr/table/body/html
Using this strategy, you would replace all your print statements with
calls to a formatter object. Which formatter you use would be
determined wherever you currently set 'html' to True or False.
HTH,
STeVe
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Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
You were right, the HTMLParser of htmllib is more permissive. He just ignores the bad tags ! The HTMLParser on my distribution is a she. But then again, I am using ActivePython on Windows... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
I've reordered the q's slightly to avoid repetition... Also by answering this question first, it may put the rest of the answer into context better. phil hunt wrote: At what stage of completion is it? This is something we deliberately try to reflect in the version number. Yes, you can build network servers and new protocols relatively simply at the moment. Yes, you can integrate with pygame in a limited useful fashion at present. Yes we have audio playback. However we don't have yet... (some examples) * Decent GUI integration yet. * /Full/ pygame integration. * Nice integration with pymedia * Direct support for Dirac. Which aside from other things means you can't build (say) a video SMIL playback system trivially, yet. As a result that's why the version number is 0.2 - whilst you /can/ do a lot, there's a lot more to do. Clearly that also naturally implies that we don't expect any end user to be looking at the site. (The low version number will normally scare them away) The project aims to make it simple to build networked multimedia systems (eg audio, video, interactive systems), There's plenty of software that facilitates networking, for example Python already has software for tcp and http clients/servers, and for xmlrpc remote procedure calls. There is indeed. So what does Kamaelia do that's extra? I imagine it's to to with streaming large amounts of data. For example, a streaming video or audio player. Or VoIP, perhaps. It's designed to make bolting things together to make these sorts of system simpler and easier. At the same time it's designed to encourage writing code in a way that makes it simpler. The natural side effect of this is the system might make it easier to take advantage of multiple CPU systems as they come online, since it makes a system naturally concurrent. As the original announcement said Kamaelia is designed as a testbed. And by testbed I mean testbed as it testing out new ideas, see if they work and see if they pan out. (Not as in a testing suite) Probably the best way of describing the difference is this... After my talk about Kamaelia at Europython, I had an long chat with Tommi Virtinan about integration between Kamaelia and Twisted. I haven't had a chance to follow up with him yet regarding how this would work, though I have set a line in the sand aiming to have easy integration between Kamaelia and Twisted before Kamaelia hits version 1.0.0. The impression I got from Tommi was that he was most interested in the communications aspect - the fact we can bolt together systems in a manner directly akin to Unix pipelines, though I suspect he found the graphines aspect more interesting. Or as someone asking a similar question at Open Tech exclaimed after I finally managed to explain it better to them Ooooh - you're trying to make concurrency EASY!. OK, so what do the components in the pipelines do? What sort of data do they hold? Unix pipelines act on ascii files; I assume you are do this on audio and visual data. What langauage will the ele,ments in thne pipelines be written it? I assume some will be in C/C++ for speed. Components are object instances of python classes. The data passed between components are object instances. Clearly these python classes can be written in python, C, C++, pyrex etc. Currently all of Kamaelia's components are python based. Some existing components make calls into some related C libraries via python bindings.. An example of writing a component using Pyrex can be found here: * http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/PyrexComponents.html It is designed as a practical toolkit, such that you can build systems such as: When you say you who do you mean? Generally I expect the readership of c.l.p/python-list@python.org to be programmers. Python is generally easy to pick up and having asked someone who's not done much programming beforehand (beyond a small amount of VB and Access), and is pre-university to use the system to build a simple streaming system prototyping visualising PVR content on a mobile (and watching them succeed), they seem relatively reasonable examples. At some point, the ability to allow non-programmers to bolt together Kamaelia systems would be desirable, but a first step is making it simpler for programmers to bolt together systems. We currently have an interactive visualisation tool(*), and the logical extension of that is a tool that allows systems to be bolted together without knowing any code. (*) http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/AxonVisualiser.html It'd be an interesting side project for someone to take forward, and might be low hanging fruit in terms of projects. (Especially if viewed initially as a tool for assisting development, rather than replacing development) Is the audience programmers or less technical people? A project that allows non-technical people to build complex network applications is an ambitious one, but not impossible (I'd find it very impressive and very
Re: finding sublist
thanks everyone. only a question. there is a way to advantage of binary sequences? I doubt you'll find any way to optimize the code that somehow only applies to binary sequences. You still have to find each possible subsequence of minimum length within the sequence and compare it to all other possible subsequences and that's what's going to take most of the time. If you haven't already, check out psyco (http://psyco.sourceforge.net/). It will most definitely make your code run faster. BR Johan Lindberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In-place decorate-sort-undecorate - best implementation?
Subtitle: the war on temporary objects continues! The page on python performance tips on the python.org wiki (http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSpeed/PerformanceTips) suggests the following code for sorting a list using decorate-sort-undecorate, but doing it in-place: def sortby_inplace(somelist, n): somelist[:] = [(x[n], x) for x in somelist] somelist.sort() somelist[:] = [val for (key, val) in somelist] Doesn't the use of list comps there generate two temporary lists? Isn't that quite inefficient? Wouldn't it be better to use a good old fashioned loop? def sortby_inplace(somelist, n): for i in xrange(len(somelist)): somelist[i] = (somelist[i][n], somelist[i]) somelist.sort() for i in xrange(len(somelist)): somelist[i] = somelist[i][1] Testing this on a 10k-element list of (float, float, float, float) tuples gives me a speedup of 35%. On a million-element list it's only 4%, but hey, who sorts million-element lists anyway? I don't have python 2.4; anyone care to check how they compare there? I used the following timer function: import time import random n = 1 r = random.random l = [(r(), r(), r(), r()) for i in xrange(n)] def time(sorter): l2 = [] l2.extend(l) t0 = time.time() sorter(l2, 2) t1 = time.time() return t1 - t0 tom -- No hay banda -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Secure email
I need to write a .cgi that will take the content of an https GET or POST and send it securely as email to an Outlook client. I think that OpenSSL is somewhere in this, but I'm not even sure how to create the right certificate, how to use it to encrypt mail and how to install a certificate in Outlook (= 2000). Code snippets and pointers to tutorials greatly appreciated. I've got a week to deploy this! Thanks! Dave LeBlanc Seattle, WA USA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: In-place decorate-sort-undecorate - best implementation?
Tom Anderson wrote: I don't have python 2.4; anyone care to check how they compare there? I used the following timer function: I think on 2.4 the new key option to list.sort would be the fastest way to accomplish what you want. -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pain
Mage wrote:
Look at this tutorial from java.com:
public class BasicsDemo {
public static void main(String[] args) {
int sum = 0;
for (int current = 1; current = 10; current++) {
sum += current;
}
System.out.println(Sum = + sum);
}
}
And then you have to compile it and set up your classpath...
It is print sum(range(11)) in python.
I would have used print sum(xrange(11)) myself. This probably has almost
zero measurable performance impact, but I think using xrange() instead
of range() is usually a good habit. As you know, xrange() generates ints
as it is called rather than all at once, which can be quite helpful with
large ranges.
I suggest you to feel lucky if you may use python at your work.
Every day.
--
Michael Hoffman
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Benjamin Niemann wrote: Christoph Zwerschke wrote: Benjamin Niemann wrote: Some (many?) people don't like the unittest module, because it is not very pythonic - nothing to wonder as it has its root in the Java world. That's probably one of the reasons why there are other (more pythonic) unittesting frameworks for Python out there. So I think it would have been better that unittest had been named PUnit to make clear that it is a JUnit port and to allow a more pythonic testing framework to be added to the Python's standard lib. It was called PyUnit before it was integrated into the stdlib. Dunno why it was renamed... unittest describes exactly what it does. pyunit says that it is in Python (duh), and that it has something to do with units, which could be a whole number of things. I'm thankful that logging is called logging as well, rather than log4py. -- Michael Hoffman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
Novice Experl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port, and changes the data on it according to keyboard input. I hope I can get it to run under windows xp and / or windows 2000. : How can I do this? What do I need to know? It doesn't look like the standard library (the one under my pillow) has that feature. In addition, I've heard that with newer versions of windows don't let you communicate with the port directly, instead requiring interfacing with some driver? I always use DLPortIO, makes life almost as simple as GWBasic and a DOS box... You can either create a custom extension around this or use ctypes. Generally speaking a custom .dll is only needed if you are your lpt transactions are bidirectional, highly interleaved and high bandwidth. DLPortIO: http://www.driverlinx.com/DownLoad/DlPortIO.htm ctypes: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/ Note that DLPortIO is not a Python thing, it's a generic Windows .dll with C and VB examples, and needs installing, so it can't be packaged with py2exe. I'd guess this is the same for other parallel port accesing tools - I think you need admin privilidges on a Windows NT/2K/XP box to install DLPortIO, but not to use it. If you decide this is the best route for you and find yourself stuck, drop me an email for some example code. --- cds : I came across this: : http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyparallel.html : but it seems to only be used for direct access (would it work with XP?), and hasn't been updated for a couple of years. In addition, it requires something called Java Communications (JavaComm) extension for Java/Jython, doesn't provide a link to it, and when I google it - google returns the page I came from! : To add to the confusion, I hope I can provide a py2exe executable of my script instead of forcing a complete installation. : --= Posted using GrabIt = : --= Binary Usenet downloading made easy =- : -= Get GrabIt for free from http://www.shemes.com/ =- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Parallel port programming on windows XP/2000?
Forgot to say - under OS' derived from Windows NT (i.e. NT 3.5, NT4, 2K, XP and future) it is not possible to directly access the parallel port, this has to be done by a kernel driver, hence the need to install something like DLPortIO, which parly exists in the kernel to access the hardware, and partly in userland to allow your programs to talk to the kernel part. I find it very annoying just how far PCs have regressed in terms of simple IO - back in the 8 bit days it was easy to hook sensors and actuators up to a computer without much knowledge and program something with them in Basic. These days it's almost impossible without special kit and lots of know how. Heck, the old BBC Mirco had raw IO capabilites as fast as an IBM parallel port, and more flexible to boot. Progress. A real pain for rd types. --- cds c d saunter ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : Novice Experl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : : I'd like to write a simple application that interfaces with the parallel port, and changes the data on it according to keyboard input. I hope I can get it to run under windows xp and / or windows 2000. : : How can I do this? What do I need to know? It doesn't look like the standard library (the one under my pillow) has that feature. In addition, I've heard that with newer versions of windows don't let you communicate with the port directly, instead requiring interfacing with some driver? : I always use DLPortIO, makes life almost as simple as GWBasic and a DOS : box... You can either create a custom extension around this or use : ctypes. Generally speaking a custom .dll is only needed if you are your : lpt transactions are bidirectional, highly interleaved and high bandwidth. : DLPortIO: http://www.driverlinx.com/DownLoad/DlPortIO.htm : ctypes: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/ : Note that DLPortIO is not a Python thing, it's a generic Windows .dll with : C and VB examples, and needs installing, so it can't be packaged with : py2exe. I'd guess this is the same for other parallel port accesing : tools - I think you need admin privilidges on a Windows NT/2K/XP box to : install DLPortIO, but not to use it. : If you decide this is the best route for you and find yourself stuck, drop : me an email for some example code. : --- : cds -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Paul McNett wrote: I've done things like this in the past, in my own Visual Foxpro framework. In that situation, I had enough control over the deployment to also ship a small smtp client, and automatically email the error without requiring any interaction at all. Clients were impressed when I'd already have a fix for the problem before they even notified me of the issue! Well, I thought about doing the same, which is easy since python already has smtplib built into the stdlib. I was just lazy and didn't do it. Though I would not implement it to send things silently without user acknowledgement. Since ipython is not installed by me on user machines (your situation was obviously different), I prefer to notify users of things about to be done first, in case they'd rather not have it 'call home'. But it would be a nice enhancement to add the option for auto-emailing in case of trouble. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Printing Docstrings Without Importing
On 1 Aug 2005 06:50:23 -0700, Fuzzyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to scratch several people's itches. Has anyone tried this doxygen filter: http://i31www.ira.uka.de/~baas/pydoxy/ I really like doxygen but am not sure if this is worth the trouble. jw -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: time.clock() or time.time()
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm trying to benchmark some function calls for Zope project Other folks have explained time() vs. clock(), so I'll leave that. But rather than roll your own timer functions, consider using timeit. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: using httplib for authentication
Thank you Fuzzy, I will look into these things. Maybe the site is setting a cookie, as you have suggested. I have never delved into the ways of http except to configure apache and write some very bare-bones web pages, so I have to say that some very obvious things do not occur to me. James On Wednesday 03 August 2005 08:41 am, Fuzzyman wrote: Hello James, httplib is built on top of the socket module - but is still a library meant for doing fairly low level http operations. For fetching URLs, urllib2 is probably the way to go. It handles GET and POST with ease. If you think this will do the job then you could try reading the urllib2 tutorial at : http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles.shtml#http You might wnat to look at other extension modules too - ClientCookie for handling cookies, ClientForm for automatically filling in the forms, BeautifulSoup for parsing HTML pages All the Best, Fuzzy http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Christoph Zwerschke wrote: - unittest is for *unit* testing (only) ;-) Why would you say that? We've used it extensively for a wide ranging... That was actually only a quote from this thread that summarizes some of the answers I got: unittest has no support for global fixtures, because it is intended for unit testing, not for global tests. Fair enough, as a quote, but it's still an inaccurate statement as I hoped I've made clear in the last several posts. The need to do global fixtures is most definitely not inherent in acceptance-type testing, so it's incorrect to say unittest is limited to unit testing. What, and break all the code that currently does import unittest? Just insert the two words punit as between import and unittest, and the code will run as before... No thanks. I have hundreds upon hundreds of test files and no desire to change them. Luckily there's roughly a zero chance of this actually happening, so no problem. :-) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Windows command line problem
considering that all the command lines are in sys.argv, it's very simple. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
phil hunt wrote: I think we might be talking at cross purposes here. To me acceptance test suite means a test suite that has to be passed each time before a new version of the software is released to the users. I don't see that 10 minutes is a sensible limit here, unless you are releasing more often that once a day. (I once had an acceptance test suite that ran for 12 hours; I used to run it nightly). We're clearly on different wavelengths. I thought Extreme Programming was sort of the context, where the acceptance tests actually *are* run many times during the day, as well as before each new release. (A new release could technically occur more than once in a day as well, so it's a good thing if the tests take less than 12 hours.) Still, in a large project (and especially one written in Python, with the overhead of interpreter startup and the cost of executing bytecode) the suite can get fairly long if you have many hundreds of tests. I'm currently running one with 227 assertions in 38 test functions. It runs in 1 second on an AMD 3000+. That's a nice start. ;-) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pain
Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:45:34 +0200 skrev Mage: Hello, I started to learn python some months ago. Mostly for fun, but I replaced php to python in many tools at my company in the last weeks. Because of our boss decision now I have to learn java. I can tell java [snip] maybe you can use jython, and tell your boss it's Java. A boss forcing people to learn and use Java probably have no interest at all ever read the code himself, so you will probably get away with it. I mean, a clueless boss... or just find another place to work? Don't code Java, be happy :-) mvh, -- Mandus - the only mandus around. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: socket and os.system
Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:46:50 - skrev mfaujour: I HAVE THIS PYTHON PROGRAMM: [snip] welcome to usenet! Maybe you get an answer if you doesn't shout that much. Or maybe you just have a problem with you Caps Lock? -- Mandus - the only mandus around. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Art of Unit Testing
Michael Hoffman wrote: Benjamin Niemann wrote: Christoph Zwerschke wrote: Benjamin Niemann wrote: Some (many?) people don't like the unittest module, because it is not very pythonic - nothing to wonder as it has its root in the Java world. That's probably one of the reasons why there are other (more pythonic) unittesting frameworks for Python out there. So I think it would have been better that unittest had been named PUnit to make clear that it is a JUnit port and to allow a more pythonic testing framework to be added to the Python's standard lib. It was called PyUnit before it was integrated into the stdlib. Dunno why it was renamed... unittest describes exactly what it does. pyunit says that it is in Python (duh), and that it has something to do with units, which could be a whole number of things. XUnit (with X being the preferred prefix for the programming language) is a common and wellknown name for a certain kind of unittesting framework. Of course there are some people around who know what unittesting is but never heard of JUnit and it decendents. But a quick textsearch on the TOC of the library reference would reveal it. Anyway, it too late now. I'm thankful that logging is called logging as well, rather than log4py. If someone is heavily using log4j and thinks about moving to Python, she will be happy to see that her preferred logging API is available for Python without even leaving the TOC of the library reference. log4X is a similar case as XUnit. (Is logging an implementation of the log4X API? Never used log4X...) -- Benjamin Niemann Email: pink at odahoda dot de WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: socket and os.system
mfaujour wrote: I HAVE THIS PYTHON PROGRAMM: [snip] socket.error: (98, 'Address already in use') DOES SOMEONE HAS AN IDEA ? PLEASE learn to format your questions more appropriately! Your post is simply _awful_ to read. At the very least, ALL CAPS is considered to be shouting, though I can see why you had to use them since it would have been impossible to see the questions amongst all the code. In any case, assuming I've been able to guess at the specific problem based on the above lines, which isn't certain, you need to use a line something like this in your code to allow your server socket to bind to an address that was previously in use: server.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET, socket.SO_REUSEADDR, 1) For more background, I suggest a Google search on python so_reuseaddr. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: trying to parse non valid html documents with HTMLParser
Steve M wrote: You were right, the HTMLParser of htmllib is more permissive. He just ignores the bad tags ! The HTMLParser on my distribution is a she. But then again, I am using ActivePython on Windows... Although building parsers is for some strange reason one of my favourite programming adventures, I do not have such a personal relationship with my classes ;) -- Benjamin Niemann Email: pink at odahoda dot de WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Kamaelia 0.2.0 released!
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:57:34 +0100, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've reordered the q's slightly to avoid repetition... Also by answering this question first, it may put the rest of the answer into context better. phil hunt wrote: At what stage of completion is it? This is something we deliberately try to reflect in the version number. Yes, you can build network servers and new protocols relatively simply at the moment. Yes, you can integrate with pygame in a limited useful fashion at present. Yes we have audio playback. However we don't have yet... (some examples) * Decent GUI integration yet. * /Full/ pygame integration. * Nice integration with pymedia * Direct support for Dirac. Which aside from other things means you can't build (say) a video SMIL playback system trivially, yet. Isn't SMIL something that's goinhg to go into web browsers? In which case, you'd presumably not want to build one yourself, I imagine? There's plenty of software that facilitates networking, for example Python already has software for tcp and http clients/servers, and for xmlrpc remote procedure calls. There is indeed. So what does Kamaelia do that's extra? I imagine it's to to with streaming large amounts of data. For example, a streaming video or audio player. Or VoIP, perhaps. It's designed to make bolting things together to make these sorts of system simpler and easier. What you say bolting things together do you mean writing Python code? Or will there be some other way? What I have in mind is something like a project I worked on some time ago, where a program could be written by drawing boxes on a GUI application, and drawing lines (representing data flow) to connect the boxes. So one half of a VoIP application might look like: +--+ ++ +---+ | listen | | convert to | | volume| | on udp || audio || control + | | port 600 | | stream | | output| +--+ ++ +---+ With something like this novel multimedia apps could be prototyped quickly (though making them into useful apps would take extra work -- in the case of a VoIP application you'd want a phonebook, for example). At the same time it's designed to encourage writing code in a way that makes it simpler. Examples would be useful here. Both of what it can do now, and what it will be able to do eventually. The natural side effect of this is the system might make it easier to take advantage of multiple CPU systems as they come online, since it makes a system naturally concurrent. As the original announcement said Kamaelia is designed as a testbed. And by testbed I mean testbed as it testing out new ideas, see if they work and see if they pan out. (Not as in a testing suite) So what it will eventually do is not cast in stone? Probably the best way of describing the difference is this... After my talk about Kamaelia at Europython, I had an long chat with Tommi Virtinan about integration between Kamaelia and Twisted. I haven't had a chance to follow up with him yet regarding how this would work, though I have set a line in the sand aiming to have easy integration between Kamaelia and Twisted before Kamaelia hits version 1.0.0. The impression I got from Tommi was that he was most interested in the communications aspect - the fact we can bolt together systems in a manner directly akin to Unix pipelines, though I suspect he found the graphines aspect more interesting. Or as someone asking a similar question at Open Tech exclaimed after I finally managed to explain it better to them Ooooh - you're trying to make concurrency EASY!. OK, so what do the components in the pipelines do? What sort of data do they hold? Unix pipelines act on ascii files; I assume you are do this on audio and visual data. What langauage will the ele,ments in thne pipelines be written it? I assume some will be in C/C++ for speed. Components are object instances of python classes. The data passed between components are object instances. What sort of objects? For example, if an application is audio straming, what sort of objects will be passed? Will there be onre object passed for each 10 ms or so of sound, or will there be a continuously-set-up object that passes the data throught it a byte at a time? And if it's written in Python, will it run fast enough? Clearly these python classes can be written in python, C, C++, pyrex etc. Currently all of Kamaelia's components are python based. Some existing components make calls into some related C libraries via python bindings.. An example of writing a component using Pyrex can be found here: * http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/PyrexComponents.html My thought on this example: cdef class test(Axon.Component.component): def mainBody(self): if self.dataReady(inbox): data = self.recv(inbox)
Re: pain
Mandus wrote: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:45:34 +0200 skrev Mage: Hello, I started to learn python some months ago. Mostly for fun, but I replaced php to python in many tools at my company in the last weeks. Because of our boss decision now I have to learn java. I can tell java [snip] maybe you can use jython, and tell your boss it's Java. A boss forcing people to learn and use Java probably have no interest at all ever read the code himself, so you will probably get away with it. I mean, a clueless boss... Thank you, I will check this out. My company will switch to a jsp site. Isn't jython slower (I mean performance) than java? As well as I understand jython code will be interpreted twice. or just find another place to work? Acceptable but I have some reasons to stay. Don't code Java, be happy :-) I would be surprised if there were more than five python jobs in my country but have to look around. Mage -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pain
On 2005-08-03, Mage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't jython slower (I mean performance) than java? As well as I understand jython code will be interpreted twice. Jython gets compiled into Java byte code just like Java gets compiled into Java byte code. Then whatever platform you're using either interprets the Java byte code or uses some variant of JIT compilation into native object code. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! HELLO, little boys! at Gimme a MINT TULIP!! Let's visi.comdo the BOSSA NOVA!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
